CHARMING AND MEZZING

[Jimjam]

Charming can be the groups savior or it could turn very nasty. My normal array of spells are: Tasani, Color Flux/Shift/Skew, Entrance, Mesmeriztion, Cajoling Whsipers, and Root.
If a large group is pullled I will use my AE Mez spell. Generally I get no resists, and if the party is assisting, all but 1 will be mezzed. The lvl 16 AE mez spell only lasts about 24 secs. So I will pick one of the mobs, and Tashani it, and then Charm it. If there are more than 2 mobs, then what you have at this point is: 1 mob being attack, 1 mob charmed, and several others. Repeat your AE mez spell, then your pet should be unmezzed. Have him attack the same one as your party.

At this point go to each mob that is mezzed, and tashani them and root them. As the AE mez breaks, throw in your Entrance (it is only a single mez but it lasts longer. Do this to all mobs that you rooted. You don't have to charm but in Karnor's Castle, a charmed sentry that hits for 109 points of damage is way cool. If you just want to crowd control, do AE mez, Tashani, Root...wait for AE mez to break and follow up with your Entrance. Using this method I have controlled up to 12 mobs while having the Ghoul Executioner as my pet. NOTE: If you have a charmed pet, you can can, if you want, cast buffs on your new pet. A Ghould Executioner with Celerity is an awesome site. Just have Pilliage Enchantment ready if needed.


Strategy Submitted on: Wednesday, March 01, 2000
Reposted on: Wednesday, March 15, 2023

Thanks to (https://web.archive.org/web/20020430094830/http://eq.castersrealm.com/playguides/VIEW.ASP?ID=2476) Najib Aasim, Mithaniel Marr

[loramin]

Classic AF :)

It's almost like people back in classic did know how to play their Enchanters (including how to use charm) ... and yet, for some reason, the vast majority didn't charm regularly in groups ... almost as if the risk vs. reward of charming was different on live ...

[Jimjam]

There are actually lots of strategy guides archived on casters realm. Well, the titles are if not the pages themselves. Many make reference to charming - so it was something that was done.


There are all sorts of enchanter strategies, but the one that made me laugh most was this one:

SOLOING OSARGEN LVL 29-31+ (https://web.archive.org/web/20020525101522/http://eq.castersrealm.com/playguides/VIEW.ASP?ID=4654)

You may expect it to be a charming guide, but actually it is just "summon your 29 pet, mez, tash, root, suffocate and spam flux until root break" apparently he had a very fast respawn :D


Server needs to fix multikiting for charm classes though

NECROS AND ENCHANTERS, BEST EXP EVER
BORED?...GO TO COBALT SCAR
SOLOING OSARGEN LVL 29-31+
LET'S GO CHECK OUT UPPER GUK!
CHARM AND THE EASTERN WASTES (39-48)
CRYSTAL CAVERNS (29-37)
HOW TO CHARM EFFECTIVELY, KEEP A PET FOR HOURS
CROWD CONTROL AND PROPER USE OF ENTRANCE
BORED WAITING FOR A GATE IN WC - KILL THE GUARDS (LVL 30)
BUG HUNT IN BURNING WOODS - MID-30'S UP
HAPP IN LFEY
SPIROCS IN TD (LEV 45-51)
LEARN TO LOVE YOUR PET AGAIN AT LVL 49
LOWER GUK - LEVELS 35-40
MULTI-KITING-- THE FASTEST EXPERIENCE THERE IS
CHARMING AND MEZZING
BEST PARTNERSHIPS - OUTSIDE ZONES
CHARM-KITING OASIS SPECS
ANNOYING SPELLS COME TO USE
EASY XP WITH A NECRO FRIEND
RAPTORS FOR AWESOME XP
THIS IS *THE* STRATEGY TO PK ANY CASTER. PERIOD..
GETTING FROM 43 TO 49 IN THE NEW LANDS.
DRUID DOUBLE SPAWN IN WC
4 L35 DWARVES EVERY 6 MIN, FOR L39-48, AND LEARN TO MASTER CHARM. (VERY LONG AND DETAILED)
WRONG GNOME COMBO!
BREAKING WEST KARANAS OGRE CAMP AT 45
ANOTHER GOOD STRATEGY FOR DWARVES IN OOT
A BIT OF CHAOS AND SOME TEA!
SOLOING DWARVES IN OOT FROM 26-34
GNOME GUARDS SOLO =P
AWESOME EXP
ANOTHER GNOME TRICK
ANOTHER GOOD HG/SG COMBO
HILL GIANTS AND OTHER BIG NASTYS
DROPPING GIANTS AND GRIFFONS AT 30
A USE FOR OUR TERRIBLE PETS.
SHADOWMEN + PB AE = EZ XP
ENCHANTER BEST SOLO POWERGAMING CLASS.
SHADOW MEN

6 of the front page strategies (at this archive time stamp (https://web.archive.org/web/20010727213825/http://eq.castersrealm.com:80/playguides/default.asp?Class=enchanter&Category=4) mention charm tactics in title. Many of those that don't may mention charm in content (can't be arsed to check all the links). Charm was a thing, even if it wasn't so widespread as here.

[Garnaak]

Looks like charm was the bomb in classic EQ. I am beginning to think we need a petition to un-nerf enchanters on this server.

[Jobaber]

People be walking around with suits of blazing ro on their twinks, and people like, "too many people charming here so must be broken"

NO!

It's that we have no lives!

No LIVES!

[Vivitron]

The following guide is largely in line with p99 enchanter grouping; it basically says keeping a charmed pet in a group is well worth the risk and more enchanters should learn how to play: https://web.archive.org/web/20030429024736/http://eq.crgaming.com/playguides/VIEW.ASP?ID=6388

CHARMING MADE EASY - Hawkins Filibuster, Tholuxe Paells

Have you ever wondered why most enchanters never charm except in emergency situations or when soloing? After all a charmed and hasted mob will do a massive amount of damage, hold aggro, and can be killed when at low HP for EXP. Why don't enchanters charm all the time?

Because charming is dangerous and will get you killed. That said charming can be done routinely and for amazing EXP and loot if you follow this strategy.

Preparation

First - Max your CHA. Charisma makes the enchanter. Get as much CHA as you can afford, even sacrificing INT for CHA. Use your best CHA buff.

Second - Mem these spells 1- Tash 2- Color shift 3- Color flux/skew 4- Long mez (enthrall, entrance, dazzle) 5- Short mez (Mezmerize(yes level 4 mez)) 6- Charm (Beguile, Cajoling WHispers, Allure (use the lowest charm that can still work where you are hunting to conserve mana, if you are good you can also rotate spells here)) 7, 8 - Buff rotation and slow

Third - Buy lots of Rune reagents. Don't be cheap if you learn to charm you will get rich fast. And you will occasionally get hit if mobs resist your stuns/mez.

Fourth - Make friends with a Druid(Ensnare 10 min) Ranger (snare, ensnare 51+) and a Shaman/Mage (malaise/malosi spell line) This is not necessary but makes charmed pets easier to recharm once charm breaks(snare), and charm will last longer with magic resistance lowered. This added time can be the difference between staying at full mana while charming, or having to take a med break after you pet is killed.

Fifth - Make a hotkeyed social for your level 4 mez. That has a group msg.

Line 1- /cast 5
Line 2- 'Mezzing %T for CHARM.'
Line 3- /tell {put mage/shaman name here} Please Malasie/Malosi %T before I charm.

Sixth - Make social hotkeys for all the pet commands especially /pet guard here /pet guard me /pet attack and /pet back off.

CHarming Battle Strategy

OK, after this preparation you are ready to charm like a pro. Is your rune shield up? Resists do happen.

Have your party puller go pull 2 mobs. As the mobs come into camp Mez the add as usual only this time use your short (24 sec) mez. Tash the add and start spamming your druid/ranger and shaman/mage to ensnare and malaise respectively. If they are a little slow in doing this just keep lighting the mob up with your mez (and spamming party) every 10 seconds. This only costs 20 mana a pop, and they will make this debuff top priority just to shut you up.

Once the mob is ensnared and magic resistance is lowered it is time to charm. With a short mez this mob will be ready to fight for you in no time.

Once you get your charmed pet in the fight and the primary target is snared have the puller head out to find another mob. If you are brave you can haste your charmed pet at this time. I don't recommend hasting until you get lots of practive charming.

Pet all ready to go? It is chain pulling time. As adds come into camp mez them, tash them, and run by your pet giving the attack order. Remember to stay away from your pet, charm can break at anytime and even a few feet can give you time to remez before getting hit. You can make sure your pet stays away from you with the /pet guard here command. Tell your puller to keep three mobs in camp at all times. Your pet, the main target, and the mezzed add.

If charm breaks attempt to remez, and if not snared and you get hit try to stun before remezzing. The 1.5 sec cast on color shift will allow you to channel through even your hasted mobs attacks. The rune can give you the extra time you need to regain control.

If your charmed pet is below 25% health Mez with your long mez, but do not recharm. If outside you can fear after party finishes the primary mob, or slow if in a dungeon. After all you don't want your hasted pet beating on your friends. By the way.. you get EXP for your former pet. If you are really good you can mez you former pet. Short mez the incoming monster, and have a fresh pet to kill off your former pet.

This strategy may seem overly complicated, but once you have made the proper preparations the strategy can fit into about any group. If your teamates are having trouble figuring out which mob is your pet tell them to con it, or use the /pet who leader hotkey. Better yet if you have a shaman in the party have them shrink your pet. This can be quite humorous. One afternoon I had a mini frogluk bok shaman charmed for over 4 hours. It kept healing itself, and I ended up giving it clarity. We even had to zone to pick up new teamates, and when we returned my pet frogluk was completely healed, and just begging to get an 'invite' back in our party.

Hope this helps your charming efforts. Enjoy!

Strategy Submitted on: Monday, December 17, 2001

[ddemers]

I think it's pretty common knowledge that the group's enchanter (for xp groups) will be charming a pet.

The enchanters pet can often out DPS melee dps, not to mention the enchanter is also hasting the melee. Add CC/Mana Regen and most groups want at least 1 enchanter in the group.

Basically, the group is getting a strong melee DPS/Mana Regen/CC/Agro magnet. If you are not Charming, then you are doing the group wrong.... in fact, a group setting is likely the best place to learn how to charm (safer).

[loramin]

The following guide is largely in line with p99 enchanter grouping; it basically says keeping a charmed pet in a group is well worth the risk and more enchanters should learn how to play: https://web.archive.org/web/20030429024736/http://eq.crgaming.com/playguides/VIEW.ASP?ID=6388

Right, so you have one guy on live thinking the risk vs. reward was worthwhile, and virtually all other Enchanters thinking it was too risky to charm in groups (or solo for that matter).

As I keep repeating, this is not a binary thing. The question isn't "was charming possible in live?" ( of course it was) ... the question is "if it was possible, and some did it, why did so many fewer Enchanters do it on live vs. here?"

Here's a simple thought experiment: let's say P99 is super accurate in most regards, but the charm success rate (or any other mechanic that affects charming, eg. the channeling success rate) is 20% higher here than on live: what would that look like?

I submit that you'd see a server that looks just like live ... only with Enchanters charming a lot more than they did on live. In other words, you'd see P99.

[Jobaber]

the reason they didn't have airplanes in Egypt was because physics didn't exist back then

[loramin]

Yes, casting the spells on your spell list requires just as much innovation as creating the world's first airplane: great analogy :rolleyes:

[Jobaber]

Yes, casting the spells on your spell list requires just as much innovation as creating the world's first airplane: great analogy :rolleyes:

thanks, glad we can agree!

[Vivitron]

Here's a simple thought experiment: let's say P99 is super accurate in most regards, but the charm success rate (or any other mechanic that affects charming, eg. the channeling success rate) is 20% higher here than on live: what would that look like?

I think we're in agreement on the goal of classic mechanics. Make channeling rates classic. Make charm resists classic. I'm for it.

Yes, casting the spells on your spell list requires just as much innovation as creating the world's first airplane: great analogy :rolleyes:

I know you find it implausible but I expect p99 style charming will survive updates that make p99 mechanics more classic. The classic guides we've seen here seem to support it: some enchanter guides not keeping a charmed pet suggesting poor tactics, but here a guide with better tactics saying it works great to keep a pet.

[loramin]

I think we're in agreement on the goal of classic mechanics. Make channeling rates classic. Make charm resists classic. I'm for it.



I know you find it implausible but I expect p99 style charming will survive updates that make p99 mechanics more classic. The classic guides we've seen here seem to support it: some enchanter guides not keeping a charmed pet suggesting poor tactics, but here a guide with better tactics saying it works great to keep a pet.

If they "nerfed" charming so much that people didn't solo charm (or charm in groups) that would be the opposite of my goal. My goal is classic EQ, and there is clear evidence that some people did charm in classic.

There is space between "every Enchanter charms, mostly while soloing, and in the rare cases when they group ... they also charm" (basically how it is on P99 now) and "Enchanters never charm". We have a wealth of evidence that classic EQ fell somewhere in that space.

P.S I personally want to main an Enchanter in Green 2.0, and I want to solo a good portion of the time with them. I just don't want P99 easy mode when I do it; I want the classic challenge.

[sajbert]

If I make a topic ”How classic is enchanter charm and is FSI worth it?”

You guys wanna gamble on who posts first, Loramin or DSM?

[Infectious]

If they "nerfed" charming so much that people didn't solo charm (or charm in groups) that would be the opposite of my goal. My goal is classic EQ, and there is clear evidence that some people did charm in classic.

There is space between "every Enchanter charms, mostly while soloing, and in the rare cases when they group ... they also charm" (basically how it is on P99 now) and "Enchanters never charm". We have a wealth of evidence that classic EQ fell somewhere in that space.

P.S I personally want to main an Enchanter in Green 2.0, and I want to solo a good portion of the time with them. I just don't want P99 easy mode when I do it; I want the classic challenge.

So don't stack charisma gear or tash your pet. Also when charm breaks, don't use your 1 second stun.

[loramin]

So don't stack charisma gear or tash your pet. Also when charm breaks, don't use your 1 second stun.

That's not classic at all: we know that Enchanters in classic knew Charisma helped, and we know they used the spells on their spell list.

[stinkfist37]

If I make a topic ”How classic is enchanter charm and is FSI worth it?”

You guys wanna gamble on who posts first, Loramin or DSM?

Lol this is hilarious. Let's be real though, way more plausible 2023 gamers are just built different than 2000 gamers. Everyone min maxes everything now and if you don't charm in a group you're just bad. Back then people were just happy to have c and haste. Hell people were impressed just seeing someone with an epic back then.

[Toxigen]

Think about how bad the average p99 player today is.

Now think about how bad the average eq player was in 2000.

Thats why charm is more prevalent.

[Jimjam]

Think about how bad the average p99 player today is.

Now think about how bad the average eq player was in 2000.

Thats why charm is more prevalent.

I think a huge thing is we have much clearer guides on how to combo the spells to deal with things like charm breaks, etc.

Many guides, such as the one I copypasted here, clearly knew which spells to use and what to do, but really talked around the actual issue of how to do it.

We got some really good SOPS on p99.

[Jobaber]

people in 1980 - It's impossible to play through this whole game!

people in 2020 - I beat that old game in 1.46 seconds, a new world record!

[socialist]

My memories of Classic/Kunark/Velious are too foggy (and I was too casual) to say how much people did or didn't use charm, but I know it was used extensively during Luclin/PoP, and I'm not aware of any changes to the fundamental mechanic between those two time periods. And I'm obviously not talking about Dire Charm.

I played an enchanter from Luclin and through PoP and a bit of GoD, and my recollection is that charm worked more or less the way it does here. It's just that people hadn't been playing MMORPGs for twenty years at the time, nor did we have Gina audio triggers to announce mez breaks so you can react instantaneously, etc.

[Iumuno]

My memories of Classic/Kunark/Velious are too foggy (and I was too casual) to say how much people did or didn't use charm, but I know it was used extensively during Luclin/PoP, and I'm not aware of any changes to the fundamental mechanic between those two time periods. And I'm obviously not talking about Dire Charm.

I played an enchanter from Luclin and through PoP and a bit of GoD, and my recollection is that charm worked more or less the way it does here. It's just that people hadn't been playing MMORPGs for twenty years at the time, nor did we have Gina audio triggers to announce mez breaks so you can react instantaneously, etc.

Resist changes during Luclin were actually an extensive change that, as far as I remember, started the more widespread use of charming.

People knew how to do basic recharming way before that. More unpredictable resists just made it a lot less reliable than it is on P99.

[Toxigen]

people in 1980 - It's impossible to play through this whole game!

people in 2020 - I beat that old game in 1.46 seconds, a new world record!

/thread

[loramin]

People knew how to do basic recharming way before that. More unpredictable resists just made it a lot less reliable than it is on P99.

/thread

[Barlu]

Classic EverQuest: My dial up internet went out and then charm broke and I died. There goes an hour of experience I have to get back since I probably won’t get a Rez.

P99 Everquest: My torched and dual wielding pet just killed me after I used it to kill 10 mobs in 5 mins. Can someone log my Rez bot cleric parked here so I can be back up and running in 5 mins?

[Garnaak]

Classic EverQuest: My dial up internet went out and then charm broke and I died. There goes an hour of experience I have to get back since I probably won’t get a Rez.

P99 Everquest: My torched and dual wielding pet just killed me after I used it to kill 10 mobs in 5 mins. Can someone log my Rez bot cleric parked here so I can be back up and running in 5 mins?

^^ This

As a semi casual enchanter main, without a bunch of level 60s to assist and no rez bot outside of guild requests, I can assure you that solo charming is a much riskier venture than some would have you believe.

[loramin]

Classic EverQuest: My dial up internet went out and then charm broke and I died. There goes an hour of experience I have to get back since I probably won’t get a Rez.


But doing anything in classic was like that. Necromancers died when their dial up internet went out too, but you didn't see them giving up on soloing because of it.

Again, it's only Enchanters who have changed their core role from classic to P99.

[Jimjam]

Resist changes during Luclin were actually an extensive change that, as far as I remember, started the more widespread use of charming.

People knew how to do basic recharming way before that. More unpredictable resists just made it a lot less reliable than it is on P99.

Hmm there was a post trilogy resist/spell/melee rebanalnce, wasn’t there? Part of it was a rebalance of max damage to be just 2dmg+db. Sad times.

[pasi]

Think about how bad the average p99 player today is.

Now think about how bad the average eq player was in 2000.

Thats why charm is more prevalent.

One of my favorite stories from live is that we had a 60 or maybe 65 shaman. I forget if it was Luclin or PoP, but he was a senior member of our fine hardcore raiding guild. Anyhow, the bloke eventually worked up the courage to ask how other people were able to cast spells with NPCs attacking them. Long story short, the guy never trained channeling.

[stinkfist37]

More unpredictable resists just made it a lot less reliable than it is on P99.

People keep saying this like it's facts but is there any proof other than "it feels different because enchanters in my groups didn't charm back then"?

[Garnaak]

People keep saying this like it's facts but is there any proof other than "it feels different because enchanters in my groups didn't charm back then"?

No. The answer to your question is "No."

[Toxigen]

no the answer is who cares just play an enchanter and git gud you plebs

[Iumuno]

People keep saying this like it's facts but is there any proof other than "it feels different because enchanters in my groups didn't charm back then"?

I played an enchanter back then, I did solo charm in Seb or lower dogs while bored at 60, or in early luclin. I would semi-regularly die to multiple resists on tashed, low blue cons - which simply cannot happen on P99.

[Iumuno]

Hmm there was a post trilogy resist/spell/melee rebanalnce, wasn’t there? Part of it was a rebalance of max damage to be just 2dmg+db. Sad times.

There were several incremental steps in rebalancing throughout Luclin. My impression at the time is that it was good for the game. The expansion itself was shit, but I liked the eventual outcome in class balance - before PoP messed it all up again :)

[loramin]

I played an enchanter back then, I did solo charm in Seb or lower dogs while bored at 60, or in early luclin. I would semi-regularly die to multiple resists on tashed, low blue cons - which simply cannot happen on P99.

Man I wish I knew how to find evidence to prove this!

[Vivitron]

I played an enchanter back then, I did solo charm in Seb or lower dogs while bored at 60, or in early luclin. I would semi-regularly die to multiple resists on tashed, low blue cons - which simply cannot happen on P99.

Yeah, on low blues on p99 some spells have a 0 chance to be resisted; I thought there was a resists floor on live but I'm not sure. Lower dogs mobs still have a chance to resist here though, more like velk entrance spiders where you start to see literally 0 resists on some spells.

[Jimjam]

There were several incremental steps in rebalancing throughout Luclin. My impression at the time is that it was good for the game. The expansion itself was shit, but I liked the eventual outcome in class balance - before PoP messed it all up again :)

You probably didn’t know how to cast colour flux(!)

[Iumuno]

Man I wish I knew how to find evidence to prove this!

At this stage though, the discussion is academic - I wouldn't expect such a radical change. Toxigen is pretty much right there.

[loramin]

Eh, Nilbog has made some pretty dramatic changes over the years when presented with evidence.

I truly believe he wants the server to be as classic as possible, but just ... he thinks what he has now is correct, and won't change his mind without evidence to the contrary.

[cdfurry]

Another unhelpful anecdotal:

I played live from early 2000-2007. I played druid until right around Velious launch and switched to enchanter. Blew past my 35 druid to level 60 in like 3 months due to enchanters being highly sought in groups.

My wife was playing cleric but played significantly less than I did at the time. I remember PL'ing her in Chardok in the lev tunnel by CE using charm exclusively (50-60 for her). Just the 2 of us, and her mostly afk for the duration.

Shortly after this though was Luclin and then that huge nerf to enchanter charm pet damage but i cant figure out when that actually went live. That charm change 100% stopped my use of charmed pets (aside from some playing with dire charming in POP later).

The real skew with this perception in my opinion is that we are living in a very specific window that only existed for maybe a little over a year in live.

But also, my memory may not be entirely trustworthy on the entirety of this.

Jaladian/Jaladiun/Vekter

[ithaqua]

A hasted mountain pooka absolutely destroyed stuff in GoD and there were pretty good pets in PoP too, as long as command of druzzil (or their dru/nec/mag equivalents) could land they added some serious dps.
Charming got nerfed hard in OoW though, capped charm pet damage to 200-300 from their normal melee hits of 1k-1.3k

[cdfurry]

ah yes maybe that is the patch im thinking off unless there were multiple charm nerfs over that period from luclin to god. like i said my memory of then isn't 100%.

I just know charm dueling mobs in chardok turned out to be a super fast way to go from 50-60 during velious. on our server, chardok was a ghost town with everyone off trying to figure out those frozen dwarves, giants and dragons.

[ithaqua]

It’s the only charm nerf that i remember, the other changes that i know of were minor and more of a buff.
Pets forgot how to break mezzes and you had to do some minor direct damage to mobs to get exp at some point, was solved nicely with those pottery ceramic bands with the clicky lv1 nukes. Aa’s and focus effects added some real convenience to charming too with total domination aa for less breaks and instacast rune and faster casting for when it eventually broke )
Charm is OP on p99 but it was OP on live too

[Jimjam]

Charming got nerfed hard in OoW though, capped charm pet damage to 200-300 from their normal melee hits of 1k-1.3k

Was quite funny that 65 warriors with full defensive Aa and ornate+ armour were struggling to survive against xp mobs even with defensive so people used charm pets instead. VI decided the mobs dps was only an issue when charmed 🙃

GoD was a nice xpac to go back to once overlevelled/geared. Iirc oow tier 1 and lvl 70 was almost sufficient?

[ithaqua]

GoD was harsh for bazaar geared tanks with HP focus absolutely, it was tuned for lv68 characters according to rashere(?) can’t remember which dev... and ac was a lot more important in GoD than previous expansions, kyv’s and ra’tuks had much higher atk than pop/ldon mobs.
Oow helped a lot with levels/aa and improved postcap returns from ac, had lots of nice content&upgrades in GoD for both groupers and raiders too! One of my favourite expansions, completed BiC for all three of my mnk/shm/enc trio heh

[socialist]

Just because your time playing an enchanter only spanned the Velious expansion doesn't mean that was the duration of the "charm era." While it was less widely used in the beginning of Everquest's history, there's no basis for the view that the actual mechanics didn't work the way they do. This is hardly the only example of people playing the game very differently nowadays because of vastly superior knowledge. Almost nobody had an Epic+JBB+Torpor shaman back then soloing dragons. Nobody sold full epic MQs. Nobody sat on Discord to carefully coordinate their gameplay with others. Why is charm being singled out as the one thing that must be nerfed because its usage on P99 does not reflect what people did in the game's infancy? Almost nothing on P99 resembles the way we played back then, but by the time people did catch on to the powers of charm, it was clear that it was insanely overpowered--and there were, to my knowledge, no buffs to the mechanic at any point during the timeline covered by P99, so it's not as if we can say that it it's out of era. Most players just didn't really know about it, just as very few had thought of quad-kiting in the beginning and things like that. Hell, I remember that it even took a bit of time before the practice of cycling through warrior tanks for defensive became the norm on raids. Should we also nerf that so that we can pointlessly simulate the way the game was played back when most people were newbies? Of course not. That'd be idiotic. Nevertheless, that seems to be what's being asked for here.

[Windez]

Karnor's Castle
Strategy Submitted on: Wednesday, March 01, 2000


I don't really have any care either way here, but I noticed this discrepancy. Kunark wasn't released until April 24, 2000. I guess this person must have perfected this strategy while beta testing.

[Zuranthium]

I don't remember expansions being beta tested by normal players. Seems more likely the submit date on there is wrong.

[Tenloar]

GoD was harsh for bazaar geared tanks with HP focus absolutely, it was tuned for lv68 characters according to rashere(?) can’t remember which dev... a

Funny you mention this, as OoW which increased the level cap to 70 came out like 6 or 7 months after GoD. So they hella overturned GoD it sounds like?

[ithaqua]

Yeah, it was intentionally overtuned. Either for slowing down the top tier guilds or god/oow was intended to be released as a package depending on who you ask. Uqua was even more overtuned at release and got toned down a bit during the GoD time line.
A friend had over 100 raid hours in pre nerf uqua failing at barxxt and beating it first attempt after the retune ^^
SoE probably wasn’t ready to release qvic+ or at least not tacvi right away with the GoD release )

[bradsamma]

One of my favorite stories from live is that we had a 60 or maybe 65 shaman. I forget if it was Luclin or PoP, but he was a senior member of our fine hardcore raiding guild. Anyhow, the bloke eventually worked up the courage to ask how other people were able to cast spells with NPCs attacking them. Long story short, the guy never trained channeling.


Hahaha, I thought I was the only one who did this! I had the same problem on my Druid back in classic. Didn't have channeling trained for like 6 months.

[spoil]

Now that's classic.

[long.liam]

"
------------------------------
October 8, 2001
------------------------------

*** Item Changes ***

- Increased the duration on Song of the Deep Seas (the proc on a bardic
weapon) dramatically.

- Modified the effect of Feast of Blood (weapon proc) it is now a DoT
lifetap

- Added a texture to Flayed Barbarian Skin Leggings.

- Added Illusion: Barbarian to the Flayed Barbarian Hide Mask.


*** Miscellaneous Changes ***

- The last language used by your character will be stored in your
eqclient.ini file when you log out. This means that if the last
character you were playing was speaking Elvish, then when you log back
in with any character, that character will be speaking Elvish if he
can, otherwise it will be set to a default language (most often
Common).

*** Magic System Changes ***

There is a more detailed explanation of these changes posted on our
Developer's Corner. Please visit there for more details (either at
www.everquest.com or http://boards.station.sony.com/ubb/everquest/cgi-
bin/Ultimate.cgi). Here is a summary of the changes:

- The level-based spell resistance bonus inherent in super-high level
NPCs has been reduced significantly.

- Several NPCs have had their resistances reduced. Each of them was
examined carefully, and resistances changed as seemed appropriate. For
some of these NPCs other things were changed as well to compensate for
their increased susceptibility to spells, such as armor improvements or
perhaps greater hit points, if needed for that NPC.

- NPCs that were highly magic resistant in order to make them immune to
certain spells can now be given specific immunity to those spells. This
means that they can be made immune to critical spells, as intended, and
still be generally less resistant to magic. Players will receive a
message similar to the one that is already given for Mesmerization
spells when they cast a spell on an NPC that it is specifically immune
to.

IMPORTANT NOTE: It is very important to note that we have not made any
NPCs immune to spells that they were not already immune to. Many NPCs
that were previously immune to spells due to their high innate
resistance to magic have had that resistance reduced and specific
immunities added. So if you see an immunity message after attempting to
cast a spell on an NPC that you hadn't seen such a message from before,
understand that the NPC was already immune to that spell before due to
high resistances, and the only difference is that it now has lower
resistances in general and specific spell immunity (which is why you
are seeing the message).
"
This is the only patch note I could find that refers to any magic resist changes. Pre-luclin and I believe it is within P99's timeline regardless, so even if somehow the "classic" magic resist code could gleamed from the dark corners of the web, it would have no affect on the blue server. It might affect the green server. However, it's very unlikely anyone can figure what the Magic resist code was before the changes. Anecdotal information is highly unreliable and mostly too vague to be helpful. Unless some uber nerd has log files or a video recording of the actual resist amounts on each mob, it most likely will remain as is.

[long.liam]

Also, the evidence required for making a major change like this would have to be huge and definitive. It's one thing to ask for adding a missing NPC from zone, not a huge deal, very little evidence is needed for that. Making a major game mechanics change requires huge amounts of definitive evidence to support it. By definitive, I don't mean repeated anecdotal stories, I mean actual in game data.

[Tann]

By definitive, I don't mean repeated anecdotal stories, I mean actual in game data.

This is outrageous!! My memberberries are solid proof that charming is broken here, I'd like to speak to the manager at once.

[Jimjam]

Also, the evidence required for making a major change like this would have to be huge and definitive. It's one thing to ask for adding a missing NPC from zone, not a huge deal, very little evidence is needed for that. Making a major game mechanics change requires huge amounts of definitive evidence to support it. By definitive, I don't mean repeated anecdotal stories, I mean actual in game data.

Idk. Hypothetically if there is more evidence for one state than another it is better to move it in the direction of that state… even if the likelihood it is less wrong rather than completely correct.

Bigger things than channelling, such as mitigation, have been given that treatment. It is unreasonable to expect a perfect recreation of these unknowns. Don’t let perfect be the enemy of the good. Move things closer to how classic seemed even if imperfect.

[long.liam]

Idk. Hypothetically if there is more evidence for one state than another it is better to move it in the direction of that state… even if the likelihood it is less wrong rather than completely correct.

Bigger things than channelling, such as mitigation, have been given that treatment. It is unreasonable to expect a perfect recreation of these unknowns. Don’t let perfect be the enemy of the good. Move things closer to how classic seemed even if imperfect.

They had data from in era to compare to for mitigation. Log files of what mobs hit for and relative mitigation rates. We need log files of resists rates from all mobs in era to compare. Additionally, we need to know how much the resists rate were change by Oct. 8, 2001 patch. This is still in era for P1999 though, so even if we established all of that it's highly unlikely that Nilbog or Rogean would implement it, because that would involve giving adjusting the resists rate before Velious and than readjusting back after velious. They have made it pretty clear before that they are not interested in doing mechanics adjustments when it comes to AC. Considering the workload this would entail, it's probable that whatever resist rates are current it will either remain the same or possible be lowered if current evidence suggest.

[Jimjam]

Are you agreeing with me? As the mitigation data didn’t include what the tanks were wearing or the attack values of mobs. And the solution landed on was actually decidedly non classic - especially in terms of caps and returns - because an un-classic model using the mob stats we have gave closer results to classic data than using exact classic mechanics (as all mobs would have needed a revamp to adjust their melee stats to fit the classic formula).

This is why I use mitigation as my key example - it is purposely unclassic in actual mechanics in order to give closer to classic results (than what it was previously).

You may be right that they’ve got the spells issues into the window of ‘close enough’ too.

[long.liam]

Are you agreeing with me? As the mitigation data didn’t include what the tanks were wearing or the attack values of mobs. And the solution landed on was actually decidedly non classic - especially in terms of caps and returns - because an un-classic model using the mob stats we have gave closer results to classic data than using exact classic mechanics (as all mobs would have needed a revamp to adjust their melee stats to fit the classic formula).

This is why I use mitigation as my key example - it is purposely unclassic in actual mechanics in order to give closer to classic results (than what it was previously).

You may be right that they’ve got the spells issues into the window of ‘close enough’ too.

I don't know if I agree with you or not. I'm not clear on what your position is on this subject. I dislike the term "Classic" or "Not-Classic", because no one, except maybe the original devs that worked on EQ, knows exactly how all the game mechanics worked in 1999-2000 ERA; The Original source codes for the game all gone; Very little hard data exist, if any, online; and the majority of "evidence" people post are little more the anecdotes and speculation about how they remember the game worked 20+ years ago. Human memory is notoriously unreliable. People often repeat information that they heard from someone else, even when that information is wrong. The Rumor Mill is a thing. Also, a lot us were younger video game players back then. At 12 years old I was not even that good at the game. Expecting a bunch of young Kids, Teenagers, and underachieving adults to accurately understand and report complex game mechanics is kind of far fetched.

I honestly think that at this points the term classic is meaningless, because no one has anything to accurately compare it to. The original game does not exist anymore. How does anyone know for certainty that the P99 devs didn't get 100% right on this or wrong on other things etc.

[Jimjam]

Oh yea, my position is as ethereal as the reality of ‘classic’ itself. Certainly I originally reposted this classic comment from casters realm as it does go against a certain narrative on the forum that charm was basically unused back in 1999 - the post clearly showed it worked at some level.

I do concede that implementation here is unlikely perfect BUT I do think it is functionally sufficient. There are certainly things I’d place at a higher priority (particularly getting newbie yards working classically - making it impossible to spawn camp and making it so newbie yards are full of mobs when overcamped but not overfull of mobs when undercamped).

Honestly fixing newbie yards would be my #1 desire preceding green 2.

[long.liam]

Oh yea, my position is as ethereal as the reality of ‘classic’ itself. Certainly I originally reposted this classic comment from casters realm as it does go against a certain narrative on the forum that charm was basically unused back in 1999 - the post clearly showed it worked at some level.

I do concede that implementation here is unlikely perfect BUT I do think it is functionally sufficient. There are certainly things I’d place at a higher priority (particularly getting newbie yards working classically - making it impossible to spawn camp and making it so newbie yards are full of mobs when overcamped but not overfull of mobs when undercamped).

Honestly fixing newbie yards would be my #1 desire preceding green 2.

I'm not familiar with the Newbie Yard issue. Were the spawn points randomized? Did they have variable spawn rates based off of the number of players in the zone?

[Jimjam]

I'm not familiar with the Newbie Yard issue. Were the spawn points randomized? Did they have variable spawn rates based off of the number of players in the zone?

They worked a bit like ancient croc in guk or the alligators in qeynos sewers. A group of mobs would be linked and they wouldn’t respawn until all members of that group had been killed. The respawn time was almost instant though. The spawns were usually spread out (but in the case of paineel the spawns were clumped together).

It was a really elegant solution.

[long.liam]

They worked a bit like ancient croc in guk or the alligators in qeynos sewers. A group of mobs would be linked and they wouldn’t respawn until all members of that group had been killed. The respawn time was almost instant though. The spawns were usually spread out (but in the case of paineel the spawns were clumped together).

It was a really elegant solution.

Did you post a Bug Report?

[Jimjam]

It has been posted before. The devs mentioned wishing they had time to fix newbie yards before green was released. Maybe it is forgotten again.

I just recorded a quick lofi video demonstrating the mechanic.

R_9DJSsTUKk

Jump to 1:05 for the good stuff... apologies for not muting combat music!

[pasi]

Man, I missed the Gates of Discord discussion. I love Gates of Discord discussion!

Iirc, Gates of Discord and Omens of War started off at the same expansion before being divided up into separate expansions. Gates may have been designed around level 70 play - which would make sense as to why mid-tier 6man content was hitting as hard as Plane of Time raid encounters (in terms of raw numeric value; not factoring in ATK/rate obviously).

EQ pumped out expansions q6-12 months, so my guess is that it was too late in the development cycle to go back and adjust most content back to level 65. EQ didn't really have players beta test much prior to pumping out the expansion either. I don't recall guilds being asked to test encounters until LDoN. And even then, it was usually the first tier. We (a guild one-daying PoTime) had tested one of the Vex Thal - level Ruj Raids in LDoN (as opposed to Elemental or PoTime level). For GoD, I think we were asked to test Ikkinz 1 or 2?

In retrospect, most of the tuning problems in GoD had to do with trash mobs and encounter adds hitting way too hard. In other words, adds hitting for 3k when bosses hit for 4k. Contrasted with say POP having adds hit for 1k when bosses hit for 3k. So, they may have had time to adjust the bosses damage tables, but I think adds/trash were left alone. The OG Uqua death-spawns quadded for 3k which usually meant a wipe if someone died.

[Degalian]

Right, so you have one guy on live thinking the risk vs. reward was worthwhile, and virtually all other Enchanters thinking it was too risky to charm in groups (or solo for that matter).

As I keep repeating, this is not a binary thing. The question isn't "was charming possible in live?" ( of course it was) ... the question is "if it was possible, and some did it, why did so many fewer Enchanters do it on live vs. here?"

Here's a simple thought experiment: let's say P99 is super accurate in most regards, but the charm success rate (or any other mechanic that affects charming, eg. the channeling success rate) is 20% higher here than on live: what would that look like?

I submit that you'd see a server that looks just like live ... only with Enchanters charming a lot more than they did on live. In other words, you'd see P99.

Totally agree, I don't think Charm (and Root for that matter) resists/breaks on P99 match what was on live.
I played chanter there and the way we played/pulled there wasn't any time to handle a pet, let alone handle one, when you are taking care of 5 other mobs in camp, or worse yet, handle a Charm break.
Sure you could charm and sure you could be lucky ... for a while. But then you would have some bad luck, eat dust and leave your group without CC possibly to whipe or at best with a Chanter that has to med up after Rez ---> no good CC for a while.
Not talking about outdoors/snared pets which is childsplay, there you can charm to your hearts content with little risk (other than running out of mana, which would usually happen, because charm broke more often).

And yes we stacked Charisma too back in the day, I just remember it as: can work for a while, usually too much tax on Mana, not worth the risk.

[Jimjam]

I do feel like root was far less reliable on live than here. Like I’d rarely use higher level roots because the chances of an advanced root to last longer than the duration of the basic root felt slim.

I’m not confident in that memory- perhaps I was rooting the wrong level mobs, roots were being dispelled or broken by nukes/aoe. /shrug.

[loramin]

I do feel like root was far less reliable on live than here. Like I’d rarely use higher level roots because the chances of an advanced root to last longer than the duration of the basic root felt slim.

I’m not confident in that memory- perhaps I was rooting the wrong level mobs, roots were being dispelled or broken by nukes/aoe. /shrug.

I never played an Enchanter on live, but as a Shaman I remember using the basic "Root" almost exclusively in the classic era, for the same reason ... and this should be something with lots of evidence available.

[loramin]

and this should be something with lots of evidence available.

I'm a terrible classic researcher, but I did find these on the Caster's Realm archive (emphasis added):

2. Second slot : Root (forget enstill; it is worthless. Stick with root, and ALWAYS have it hotkeyed. I use hotkey 3 for this, keeping it directly next to my nuke at hotkey 4)

Then you ROOT (root only none of that enstil crap!) walk a good distance away but not out of spell range.

[Chortles Snortles]

>castersrealm noob guides taken as definitive proof
(lol)

[spoil]

If you've ever root rotted for an extended period of time, get help.

[loramin]

If you've ever root rotted for an extended period of time, get help.

It was a key part of classic EQ (for some classses at least) ... and we're all here for classic EQ right?

[Infectious]

It was a key part of classic EQ (for some classses at least) ... and we're all here for classic EQ right?

No. You want people to behave as if it's 1999. You aren't getting your childhood back. Enjoy what we have and be grateful.

[Seducio]

we're all here for classic EQ right?

That ship sailed long ago. Everyone is here for p99 not classic eq.

[Tann]

That ship sailed long ago. Everyone is here for p99 not classic eq.

Closest we're going to get to classic EverQuest, doesn't have to be perfect.. just close enough.

[long.liam]

It was a key part of classic EQ (for some classses at least) ... and we're all here for classic EQ right?

Kind of off-topic, but on my shaman I prefer slow tanking or slow + pet tanking with JBB clicks over root-rotting tactics. I know the meta is to Cast Bane of Nife and the use low level root to kill mobs, but it's kind of fun to have the pet out and spam the JBB on Mobs. It also the only Viable way to kill Summoning NPCs. Although, I supposed you could use Bane of Nife instead of the JBB, but Its nice to not have to cast a 425 mana spell ever 42 seconds. JBB is also very low hate per cast, which will help the pet to hold aggro on most mobs too. Lets me conserve my HP for healing and canning back my mana.

[Whicks]

I played chanter during Velious. I rermember not charming in groups because the resist rates were high because we were almost always pulling yellows and reds and a resisted charm was a death sentence.

For example. HHK Goblins was split into like 3-4 camps? Entire full groups would hold down a couple spawns so the time between pulls was long so it made no sense to charm anyways, but even if we could, you're an entire group not slaughters blues non-stop. You're an entire group killing a small amount of yellows and reds.

I feel like on p99 most groups are more level centrict to the content. On live we killed the highest level shit we could get away with. There was no efficiency to it. Because people did that a lot, the camps were smaller due to it taking more time to kill mobs anyways.

I feel like that general gameplay leads people to believe the game was "harder" back then. It may have been in some ways but not others.

On p99, unless you're murdering things at the right pace people will notice and change things around because we know whats' efficient now.

[enjchanter]

I'm glad charming is broken here so I don't have to group/duo

[Toxigen]

I'm glad charming is broken here so I don't have to group/duo

especially at scepter camp

[Ciderpress]

Rezzing this old thread cause the topic seems relevant.

Just started trying to solo in chardok since I got dictate, and I get the strat of using it to suicide placeholders into a pack of mobs, but whenever I cast dictate on the ph, all the mobs in the room attack me instead of the pet, and they just chase me around until they kill me.

In videos I've watched on youtube that doesn't seem to happen, the dude charms the pet and then just sends it and all the social sarnaks gang up on it instantly. And he's not pacifying them or anything first. What am I doing wrong?

[PatChapp]

Rezzing this old thread cause the topic seems relevant.

Just started trying to solo in chardok since I got dictate, and I get the strat of using it to suicide placeholders into a pack of mobs, but whenever I cast dictate on the ph, all the mobs in the room attack me instead of the pet, and they just chase me around until they kill me.

In videos I've watched on youtube that doesn't seem to happen, the dude charms the pet and then just sends it and all the social sarnaks gang up on it instantly. And he's not pacifying them or anything first. What am I doing wrong?

Which room are you doing,Koro?
Some rooms you need to paci,some don't.
If your doing korocusts room, what I do is make a social macro with pet attack <one of the golem in the pits name>

Then,while floating I run off the back down to the bank,go through the waterfall and hit land
Start backing your pet until its dead
Some mobs will path to you but they don't get close
Gate out

The bank you need at least one paci to do the manager.
Any other questions you can pm me and il walk you through it, doks obscenely easy once you get the hang of it.

[Tnair]

been playing on PQ and I have a proposal for Loramin: charming could be the same as live in era, but without channeling being changed so that multiple hits commonly dont interrupt casting, and pair that with ignorance(/nonexistance?) of clickie GCD reset then perhaps it was simply seen as not viable during 2000-2002. and before people learned how to make it viable, more expansions were out and new things to try. charming is pretty dangerous when it goes wrong so i could also see a general social pressure not to risk the group like that (when it wasnt common for an enchanter to manage it well)

[Ciderpress]

Which room are you doing,Koro?
Some rooms you need to paci,some don't.
If your doing korocusts room, what I do is make a social macro with pet attack <one of the golem in the pits name>

Then,while floating I run off the back down to the bank,go through the waterfall and hit land
Start backing your pet until its dead
Some mobs will path to you but they don't get close
Gate out

The bank you need at least one paci to do the manager.
Any other questions you can pm me and il walk you through it, doks obscenely easy once you get the hang of it.

Thanks. It was actually those two exact camps I was talking about lol. After some more experimenting I think I have it down. Way more fun and lucrative than killing cliff golems, which I refuse to ever kill again. 100+ dead and not a single spell worth dick.

[spoil]

That's funny I had the same experience with Cliff Golems, never got a single spell worth more than like 500p. Then recently I got Dictate, Malo, Mask of the Hunter, Zumaik's Animation and a couple in the 500 range. I would still say it's overall not worth it on an enchanter.

[PatChapp]

Yeah cliff golem are bad loot,but at least kind of fun to kill sometimes. Whenever I'm in ot if I have time I kill one.

[wagorf]

farming spells is horrible roi, spells are super hard to liquidate in the market today

[enjchanter]

i wish they'd nerf dictate suicide so i can stop seeing people list every single drop from chardok in a giant unorganized , unalphabetized list for sale

[Vivitron]

i wish they'd nerf dictate suicide so i can stop seeing people list every single drop from chardok in a giant unorganized , unalphabetized list for sale

Honestly it would probably be good. Just make the 51+ chardok trash summon -- is it even a deliberate era finding that they don't or is it an oversight? Nerf sg&velks* faction while we're at it. Boom, enchanter velious solo much more balanced.

*Edit: I read a bard forum post somewhere claiming that velks faction was nerfed in or near era. Bards were still able to faction with the lute illusion but no longer with just the song, I think that would leave enchanters unable to faction.