New Human Toxx Sk

[tcm666]

what would be best stat allocation for this guy is it 20 into int rest into str or 20 str 5 int?

[tcm666]

over 100 views and no one can answer this? Ive looked through tons of the pages and haven't seen this question asked yet so i'm relying on the community to give me some insight. would love an answer as i would like to start playing this toon. someone had mentioned to me in game that it should be all stamina but i wouldn't have thought the end game return would be worth it compared to more str or int through the leveling process?

[Ripqozko]

All in sta, I'm sure someone will disagree in a few, good luck.

[skwayb]

This should have what you are looking for.

https://wiki.project1999.com/Shadow_Knight

The modern portion lists
Humans: Add 20 Stamina.

Spending Your Bonus Points
Shadow Knights need to balance the difficulty of good melee ability with a reasonable mana pool. With this in mind here are our suggested bonus point spendings:

Dark Elves: Add 10 Strength and 10 Stamina.
Erudites: Add 15 Strength and 5 Agility.
Humans: Add 10 Strength and 10 Intelligence.
Iksars: Add 10 Strength and 10 Intelligence.
Ogre: Add 15 Intelligence and 5 Agility.
Trolls: Add 20 Intelligence.
The best SK point builds do the following:

Ogres & Erudites: Get Agility to 75 as a minimum, to avoid the mitigation penalty. Place the rest of the points into the stat of your preference.

Realistic/Modern statistic allocation:

Dark Elves: Add 20 to Stamina.
Erudites: Add 15 Stamina and 5 Agility.
Humans: Add 20 Stamina.
Iksars: Add 20 Stamina.
Ogre: Add 15 Stamina and 5 Agility.
Trolls: Add 20 Stamina.

[Jimjam]

What is human toxx sk?

[Crede]

Human bertoxx. Best guild hall.

Go all INT. Just way better returns than stamina, and this is coming from a troll sk who went sta. Might as well be a war if you’re gonna be a sta try hard.

[tcm666]

awesome thank you for this info so far it's very helpful. i ment a knight of bertoxx jimjam
yeah i would have thought you'd get more out of str or int over the leveling process than the stam? cause isnt stam at 60 only 100 something more hp?

[Ripqozko]

awesome thank you for this info so far it's very helpful. i ment a knight of bertoxx jimjam
yeah i would have thought you'd get more out of str or int over the leveling process than the stam? cause isnt stam at 60 only 100 something more hp?

Until you hit 60 and wish you had that 100 hp

[Crede]

awesome thank you for this info so far it's very helpful. i ment a knight of bertoxx jimjam
yeah i would have thought you'd get more out of str or int over the leveling process than the stam? cause isnt stam at 60 only 100 something more hp?

Sta is cool at 60 I guess if you want to be a puller/trash mob tank in raids. Otherwise int just has huge returns which will translate into many different areas and it’s not easy to cap. I’d avoid str, once I hit 50 I wished I had more mana.

[Keebz]

INT is fine, but I'd still go STA, as INT is a lot easier to gear for. STR could be passable on a fresh server if you're constantly encumbered and have no gear.

[Snaggles]

I was trying not to post in every thread every day, but alas…lol.

Str = casual player
Stam = casual/semi regular raider
Intel = hardcore raider planning on socking a lot of really good gear

[Bockscar]

Mana pool is like your car's gas tank. If you could increase your gas tank's size by 10%, how often would that actually help you? Probably almost never. You rarely drive on a full tank until you run out of gas and then needed more in order to do what you wanted to do. But the only time a bigger tank does anything at all is if you do exactly that, fill it up and drive until it's completely empty without ever stopping to refill. While there are hypothetical scenarios where that could happen, it's not exactly an everyday part of life.

How often are you in a situation where having like 200 extra maximum mana would have made an important difference? This is not a class that regularly dumps a full mana bar into a single fight and would still have benefitted meaningfully from even more mana. That's for clerics and wizards. SK spells are just too low-impact for this to matter. The difference between all starting points into INT or none at all is the equivalent of like one 300 HP lifetap. And it only actually matters when you started the encounter with full mana and spent it all in one go. It's not like a larger mana pool does anything in a fight where you started at 50%, or if you started at 100% and finished at 30%. It only does anything if you started with 100% and spent it all in one fight and having even more would have made a meaningful difference. That almost never happens for this class. It's for clerics and quad kiters.

[tcm666]

Well said Bockscar, So where do you think i would get the most out of this toon if say i never planned on raiding and it's just a casual fun alt to solo/group with, would it be into Str like snaggles suggested?

[Patrece]

May Erud have mercy on your souls

[Bockscar]

Well said Bockscar, So where do you think i would get the most out of this toon if say i never planned on raiding and it's just a casual fun alt to solo/group with, would it be into Str like snaggles suggested?

If you're completely certain that you're never going to do any endgame stuff, strength would help you the most. It's less about the damage and more about encumberance, because while there's lots of strength gear, the tradeable strength gear isn't normally well-suited for tanks because it doesn't have high AC or HP. If it's an erudite, you can't even wear small banded/bronze; so if you made an erudite SK and put no points in strength, a suit of bronze armor alone would basically put you at your weight limit.

If you do think that you might one day progress from casual alt to endgame character, stamina is the safer bet. It's a little bit overrated for hybrids since you're unlikely to be tanking actual raid bosses, but it's still the only stat that really affects how well you perform your job. By that point, you should have enough strength to not worry about encumberance, and none of the other stats besides stamina will have any impact whatsoever on how you perform as a tank.

Just remember to put five points into agility so it's 75.

[Crede]

Well said Bockscar, So where do you think i would get the most out of this toon if say i never planned on raiding and it's just a casual fun alt to solo/group with, would it be into Str like snaggles suggested?

My human ranger sits around 200 str unbuffed. It’s really not an issue raising strength as a casual. And a shaman can easily give you 100+ strength at higher levels.

At 50+ 20 extra int is going to be like 200ish mana. This is going to allow you to fear kite longer(which you’ll almost certainly have to do) or last longer in a group setting before going oom and needing to med. Keep in mind too disease cloud aggro got nerfed so that extra mana is going to help with casting more of the expensive aggro spells in groups as well.

You’ll also get the peace of mind that if you do decide to raid, int will still be useful, whereas str will be capped with ease.

[Snaggles]

Besides very challenging solo kills, duels, etc having an extended range gas tank (to borrow Bock’s metaphor) isn’t very handy. I know in ToV on some long fights it might come in handy assuming you can tap through it. I’m thinking Jorl for example when heals are often scarce but 20 starting point is not going to fix that. Picking up the BiS gear you usually get mana, intel, and SV’s as well. All very nice but not the main drive of a knight for general use, IMHO.

It’s just a matter of picking what shortcoming will be most impactful or least annoying. Capping str is possible but asking a shaman for strength before Focus is humbling. Often you won’t get it. Likewise Stamina only goes so far so making it to around 205 is pretty important since getting hit is one of your main jobs.

I wish some stuff like Chokidai pauldrons also had some str and mana. If so they would likely cost 10x what they do now. For casual players who pick smaller knights and carry a bunch of junk having a decent amount of strength is a great quality of life perk. Running a bit slower than normal is annoying for a game that requires so much of it.

Also, sorry in advance as I post this a lot but it’s a DE with 20 points in Stamina and some decent tank gear. You can look at the main SK page and do some basic math to determine where a human would land with similar gear and your own point selection.

https://wiki.project1999.com/Magelo_Blue:TestKnight

[Gozuk]

Human? Needs more STR

[Jimjam]

awesome thank you for this info so far it's very helpful. i ment a knight of bertoxx jimjam
yeah i would have thought you'd get more out of str or int over the leveling process than the stam? cause isnt stam at 60 only 100 something more hp?

Ah i call him dirty bertie bot poxy toxxy :)

[tcm666]

Just wanted to say thanks to everyone for their input. it's been very helpful to see everyones different perspective's and i find it fun to have these convo's cause i learn a lot. Much appreciated!

[Pint]

20 cha bc you might do trade skills one day and need a deal on those merchant materials

[jolanar]

20 cha bc you might do trade skills one day and need a deal on those merchant materials

From an RP perspective I've always loved the idea of a Necromancer or a Shadowknight with really high Charisma that they use to their advantage to help manipulate other people.

[Trelaboon]

I was trying not to post in every thread every day, but alas…lol.

Str = casual player
Stam = casual/semi regular raider
Intel = hardcore raider planning on socking a lot of really good gear

This would be my vote as well.

[elwing]

I didn't went full sta during creation, when I started raiding I regreted not going 20sta... But now, with some gear, I'd go full int, with Fos, sta,primal and raid gear it's almost not possible not being sta/dex capped...

Edit: also human knight of Lord Bertoxxulous.

[Jimjam]

From an RP perspective I've always loved the idea of a Necromancer or a Shadowknight with really high Charisma that they use to their advantage to help manipulate other people.

Obviously EQ was largely derived from Dungeons and Dragons.

I recently discovered http://media.wizards.com/2018/dnd/downloads/DnD_BasicRules_2018.pdf]the ( [url) basic rules of the modern version are available online free[/url]. It looks like characteristics are handled much more relevant way now than they were decades ago - making an impact in almost any decision you make (whether this is a good or bad thing for roleplayers could be argued either way).

I’d love to see a spiritual sequel to EQ that, takes inspiration from the current DND mechanics to ensure all stats are useful to some degree for all player characters.

[Balimon]

Merge agi into dex and have it actually work correctly for bows and channeling, that would fix most issues

[Crede]

I didn't went full sta during creation, when I started raiding I regreted not going 20sta... But now, with some gear, I'd go full int, with Fos, sta,primal and raid gear it's almost not possible not being sta/dex capped...

Edit: also human knight of Lord Bertoxxulous.

I agree with this 100%. I’ve done 4 different sk builds. INT is key. Let the rest take care of themselves.

[Lampolo]

Best thing you could do is start a warrior. Unless your only interested in pickup group xp

[greatdane]

I mean, if the guy doesn't raid, warrior is probably the very worst class in the game to pick. Warrior sucks ass in any context other than maintanking content that requires defensive.

[elwing]

As a sk you can tank some, even in raids and you have way funnier roles too, training, ripping...

Now you won't be tanking many bosses...

[magnetaress]

Hit points are useless. The difference between a 2000 point Cheal and a 1800 point cheal is a fraction of a percentage. You will never raid tank. And if you're pulling stuff where 250 hp at lvl 60 in BiS will make a difference you're doing it wrong. For most of your life that will be at best a 50 hp difference between you and an the guy who went all str.

Str for weak races before you can get any gear or buffs like if you are doing a solo self found challenge. Int for dumb races. Dex for vampiric embrace and procs for soloing. Agi for ogres and erudites.

[Crede]

I mean, if the guy doesn't raid, warrior is probably the very worst class in the game to pick. Warrior sucks ass in any context other than maintanking content that requires defensive.

Inb4 some war min maxer comes in saying to never pick a pally or sk over them in a group

[Lampolo]

I mean, if the guy doesn't raid, warrior is probably the very worst class in the game to pick. Warrior sucks ass in any context other than maintanking content that requires defensive.

Warrior is superior in almost every "context" except pickup grps. Why you so dumb?

[Toxigen]

Yeah I was gonna say.

I'd take a war in my XP groups any day. They at least do damage. Also disc.

SKs and Paladins are just for shitty groups with bad players.

[magnetaress]

the best /fastest group is the one with the highest exp bonus (halfling wars) killing the easiest mobs (no downtime) even in a zone with shitty zem - even if they aren't killing at the fastest speed they can

and b4 u say wars are terrible they can bandage each other and keep the exp flowing pretty gud especially at lower lvls with a smattering of gear

[greatdane]

Warrior is superior in almost every "context" except pickup grps. Why you so dumb?

If by "almost every context" you mean literally only maintanking raid bosses and no other aspect of the game whatsoever. That is the one and only activity in the entire game where warrior is not by far the worst class for its archetype. Imbecile.

the best /fastest group is the one with the highest exp bonus (halfling wars) killing the easiest mobs (no downtime) even in a zone with shitty zem - even if they aren't killing at the fastest speed they can

The last thing I want in an XP group is a tank who can't hold aggro reliably. In what harebrained world do people prefer the tank of an XP group being marginally more tanky over having the mobs actually stay on the tank? In XP content, you don't wanna wait ten seconds for the tank to secure aggro before engaging. Anyone who thinks the halfling XP bonus (5% divided across the group lmao) makes up for that kind of horrendous inefficiency, or the healer having twice as much downtime because someone other than the tank has aggro half the time, is functionally retarded. Warrior is a trash class for every Everquest activity except tanking the content that requires defensive.

and b4 u say wars are terrible they can bandage each other and keep the exp flowing pretty gud especially at lower lvls with a smattering of gear

Oh. My mistake. I thought you were actually being serious, but now I see that you're just kidding.

[Lampolo]

If by "almost every context" you mean literally only maintanking raid bosses and no other aspect of the game whatsoever. That is the one and only activity in the entire game where warrior is not by far the worst class for its archetype. Imbecile.



The last thing I want in an XP group is a tank who can't hold aggro reliably. In what harebrained world do people prefer the tank of an XP group being marginally more tanky over having the mobs actually stay on the tank? In XP content, you don't wanna wait ten seconds for the tank to secure aggro before engaging. Anyone who thinks the halfling XP bonus (5% divided across the group lmao) makes up for that kind of horrendous inefficiency, or the healer having twice as much downtime because someone other than the tank has aggro half the time, is functionally retarded. Warrior is a trash class for every Everquest activity except tanking the content that requires defensive.



Oh. My mistake. I thought you were actually being serious, but now I see that you're just kidding.

When you get off your sk or dps class and actually try to do anything other than a pickup group or a zerg raid you'll find warrior is superior. When someone is trying to actually get something done in game they are looking for a monk or a war for trios groups and raids. Sk or pally is always second choice

[Crede]

Yeah I was gonna say.

I'd take a war in my XP groups any day. They at least do damage. Also disc.

SKs and Paladins are just for shitty groups with bad players.

Where are wars just blowing away SK/Pallies in group dps? They are all on the same damage table, and they all use 2h now. My Sks 58 pet probably makes up the difference, if any. But with that also comes FD/snare/snap aggro, etc.

Sorry, I just don't see a place for wars in xp groups unless you like ponging aggro all day, or have a knight tanking and have them stay in zerk with a tov 2hnder.

[Crede]

When you get off your sk or dps class and actually try to do anything other than a pickup group or a zerg raid you'll find warrior is superior. When someone is trying to actually get something done in game they are looking for a monk or a war for trios groups and raids. Sk or pally is always second choice

curious what trioable mobs you need a war for over sk/pally. If this is a decent sized list i might be convinced war > sk/pal for pugs.

[Toxigen]

In a bloated 6 man pug in CoM / KC, sure, take the knight all day over a mediocre geared war. The DPS doesn't matter and you've got 1-2 people watching netflix or picking their buttholes.

The gap in DPS is noticed in your smaller groups (lets just talk trios and quads for scope). Duo is different because it depends on your partner. For instance, pally is great w/ necro and enchanter because you essentially play like a support char to the charmed pets. But if you're a cleric you're gonna take that war w/ truncheon and vyemm whip all day, every day, no questions asked. Don't get me started on shaman, its not even close. Let's not focus on duos.

There are so many variables you could skew together to make a weak argument for knights, but if you're with competent people there is basically zero instances where you want a pally/SK over a war...and this gap gets massive with the bloat gear of end velious where level 50 wars are rocking 41% haste and near BiS weapons.

I'm not talking about farming King at 60. That can be duo'd / trio'd with a number of combos. Normal XP groups that are not mob/spawn-capped where you're trying to chew through as many kills an hour as possible...you're taking the war all day er'day unless they're in total rags with shit weapons...which doesn't exist really on P99 these days.

Build your best trio / 4 man group compositions for XP. None of them include knights (let's face it its cleric + 2x/3x enchanter but lolcharm). It just gets worse starting at 52 w/ evasive for those "oh fuck" moments when your overzealous puller YOLOs 7 toughies.

Knights aren't bad...but war is just so far ahead.

Fortunately there are still people playing p99 that are absolute dogshit at this game. Knights help here.

[Ripqozko]

In a bloated 6 man pug in CoM / KC, sure, take the knight all day over a mediocre geared war. The DPS doesn't matter and you've got 1-2 people watching netflix or picking their buttholes.

The gap in DPS is noticed in your smaller groups (lets just talk trios and quads for scope). Duo is different because it depends on your partner. For instance, pally is great w/ necro and enchanter for instance because you essentially play like a support char to the charmed pets. But if you're a cleric you're gonna take that war w/ truncheon and vyemm whip all day, every day, no questions asked. Don't get me started on shaman, its not even close. Let's not focus on duos.

There are so many variables you could skew together to make a weak argument for knights, but if you're with competent people there is basically zero real-world instances where you want a pally/SK over a war...and this gap gets massive with the bloat gear of end velious where level 50 wars are rocking 41% haste and near BiS weapons.

I'm not talking about farming King at 60. That can be duo'd / trio'd with a number of combos. Normal XP groups that are not mob/spawn-capped where you're trying to chew through as many kills an hour as possible...you're taking the war all day er'day unless they're in total rags with shit weapons...which doesn't exist really on P99 these days.

Build your best trio / 4 man group compositions for XP. None of them include knights (let's face it its cleric + 2x/3x enchanter but lolcharm). It just gets worse starting at 52 w/ evasive for those "oh fuck" moments when your overzealous puller YOLOs 7 toughies.

Knights aren't bad...but war is just so far ahead.

Fortunately there are still people playing p99 that are absolute dogshit at this game. Knights help here.

/GU Lord Doljonijiarnimorinar in 177s, 92687 @523 | Riphealer 13741@(80 in 170s) | Molf 13498@(80 in 168s) | Gatruk 13442@(78 in 171s) | Kittla 11514@(68 in 169s) | Enviee 8790@(54 in 162s) {X}

My pally with shovel , they can dps some.

[Crede]

/GU Lord Doljonijiarnimorinar in 177s, 92687 @523 | Riphealer 13741@(80 in 170s) | Molf 13498@(80 in 168s) | Gatruk 13442@(78 in 171s) | Kittla 11514@(68 in 169s) | Enviee 8790@(54 in 162s) {X}

My pally with shovel , they can dps some.

Yea, knights can dps. Would like to see some parses of wars running circles around them.

[Crede]

In a bloated 6 man pug in CoM / KC, sure, take the knight all day over a mediocre geared war. The DPS doesn't matter and you've got 1-2 people watching netflix or picking their buttholes.

The gap in DPS is noticed in your smaller groups (lets just talk trios and quads for scope). Duo is different because it depends on your partner. For instance, pally is great w/ necro and enchanter because you essentially play like a support char to the charmed pets. But if you're a cleric you're gonna take that war w/ truncheon and vyemm whip all day, every day, no questions asked. Don't get me started on shaman, its not even close. Let's not focus on duos.

There are so many variables you could skew together to make a weak argument for knights, but if you're with competent people there is basically zero instances where you want a pally/SK over a war...and this gap gets massive with the bloat gear of end velious where level 50 wars are rocking 41% haste and near BiS weapons.

I'm not talking about farming King at 60. That can be duo'd / trio'd with a number of combos. Normal XP groups that are not mob/spawn-capped where you're trying to chew through as many kills an hour as possible...you're taking the war all day er'day unless they're in total rags with shit weapons...which doesn't exist really on P99 these days.

Build your best trio / 4 man group compositions for XP. None of them include knights (let's face it its cleric + 2x/3x enchanter but lolcharm). It just gets worse starting at 52 w/ evasive for those "oh fuck" moments when your overzealous puller YOLOs 7 toughies.

Knights aren't bad...but war is just so far ahead.

Fortunately there are still people playing p99 that are absolute dogshit at this game. Knights help here.

Ehh if I'm goin into the deepest darkest corners of this game in a trio im taking a SK all day. Probably one of the few areas they shine. There's probably like 1-2 mobs that you can actually trio that actually require a war disc.

[Lampolo]

I used to duo and trio a lot. Im definately a max xp/pp an hr type of guy for non raid play. It's not about requireing a war for which mobs. It's overall clearing power and ease of difficulty. War/cle/enc is dream trio for 1-60 and post 60

[greatdane]

When you get off your sk or dps class and actually try to do anything other than a pickup group or a zerg raid you'll find warrior is superior. When someone is trying to actually get something done in game they are looking for a monk or a war for trios groups and raids. Sk or pally is always second choice

"Get something done" that isn't soloing, grouping or raiding?

What the fuck are you talking about? What other mysterious activities is it you pretend exist where warrior is the ideal tank, if not raiding or XPing? There isn't some formal distinction between PUGs and guild groups, and knights are vastly superior to warriors in either case. Anyone who denies that is blatantly full of shit. In no conceivable way is the warrior's marginally better HP/mitigation worth more than the effortless snap aggro of hybrids in content where you're just chain-pulling easy mobs and all that matters is ensuring a steady flow of XP.

In a raid, warrior is obviously the main tank. We've already covered that. This is irrelevant to the 95% of the playerbase who don't raid.

In a group or solo, warrior is obviously terrible.

What the hell else is left? People need to quit it with these pretentious hipster opinions that they hold just because they think going against common knowledge makes them seem like they know more than everyone else. It doesn't. It just makes you look like you don't have a clue what you're talking about.

[greatdane]

In a bloated 6 man pug in CoM / KC, sure, take the knight all day over a mediocre geared war. The DPS doesn't matter and you've got 1-2 people watching netflix or picking their buttholes.

The gap in DPS is noticed in your smaller groups (lets just talk trios and quads for scope). Duo is different because it depends on your partner. For instance, pally is great w/ necro and enchanter because you essentially play like a support char to the charmed pets. But if you're a cleric you're gonna take that war w/ truncheon and vyemm whip all day, every day, no questions asked. Don't get me started on shaman, its not even close. Let's not focus on duos.

There are so many variables you could skew together to make a weak argument for knights, but if you're with competent people there is basically zero instances where you want a pally/SK over a war...and this gap gets massive with the bloat gear of end velious where level 50 wars are rocking 41% haste and near BiS weapons.

I'm not talking about farming King at 60. That can be duo'd / trio'd with a number of combos. Normal XP groups that are not mob/spawn-capped where you're trying to chew through as many kills an hour as possible...you're taking the war all day er'day unless they're in total rags with shit weapons...which doesn't exist really on P99 these days.

Build your best trio / 4 man group compositions for XP. None of them include knights (let's face it its cleric + 2x/3x enchanter but lolcharm). It just gets worse starting at 52 w/ evasive for those "oh fuck" moments when your overzealous puller YOLOs 7 toughies.

Knights aren't bad...but war is just so far ahead.

Fortunately there are still people playing p99 that are absolute dogshit at this game. Knights help here.

At this point in the timeline, there isn't that much of a DPS gap between warriors and knights unless the knight is pointlessly using sword and board in content that doesn't require it. The damage tables have been updated and warrior DPS is only slightly higher. When you take into account the fact that people can't just DPS/debuff freely at will with a warrior tank, any edge that class might have had goes right out the window. Whenever a warrior doesn't have a statistically improbable number of weapon procs within a given span of time, it's mathematically impossible for people to go all out from the start of a fight, and that costs the group more in efficiency than can ever be gained by the tank doing 10% more DPS. That's without even getting into the added utility of knights, of which warriors bring literally nothing whatsoever besides auto-attack.

[Lampolo]

"Get something done" that isn't soloing, grouping or raiding?

Nice strawman agrument there and you know it. I specified pug's and zerg raids

What the fuck are you talking about? What other mysterious activities is it you pretend exist where warrior is the ideal tank, if not raiding or XPing? There isn't some formal distinction between PUGs and guild groups, and knights are vastly superior to warriors in either case. Anyone who denies that is blatantly full of shit. In no conceivable way is the warrior's marginally better HP/mitigation worth more than the effortless snap aggro of hybrids in content where you're just chain-pulling easy mobs and all that matters is ensuring a steady flow of XP.

In a raid, warrior is obviously the main tank. We've already covered that. This is irrelevant to the 95% of the playerbase who don't raid.

In a group or solo, warrior is obviously terrible.

What the hell else is left? People need to quit it with these pretentious hipster opinions that they hold just because they think going against common knowledge makes them seem like they know more than everyone else. It doesn't. It just makes you look like you don't have a clue what you're talking about.

If you want to XP from 1-60 in a trio with ench/cleric warrior is better. Theres an example. How about if you want to one group some weaker raid mobs like Ixiblat. Warrior is better. Basically if you have friends to play with or leave KC warrior is better. You should try it sometime. Snap aggro is a weak arguement to roll SK

[magnetaress]

Cleric has blind x root. So do druids.

Warrior is great. Doesn't even need good gear. They are there so that the mob faces them and the rogues or rogue pets can stand behind the mob and afk.

[Toxigen]

Y'all are forgetting about zerk.

Bigly.

[Balimon]

Y'all are forgetting about zerk.

Bigly.

For serious, warriors have a place in groups where you dont have other melee so snap aggro isn't an issue. statics are a great example

[Snaggles]

Even outside zerk with a 2h and offensive discs warriors put down really insane numbers. You just have to have spare warriors who aren’t tanking to do that.

Casually off disc they are a bit up on the average knight.

[elwing]

Which is not the majority of the groups/spots... But the min/max discussion is ridiculous, because in the best small group there's no room for warrior nor for sk, plain and simple...

[Toxigen]

enc / war / shaman with war perma zerk tanking with something like eashen 2 hander (no need for aggro) is pretty nutty for XP trio - its not going to beat 2x enc / cleric, but if you HAVE to include a tank class its gonna be war over knights any day unless your composition is / players are pure ass

bigly if zone has a good rogue mob for the enc, war can do the legwork of positioning merbs for backstabbystabs

also root exists therefore a warriors lack of snap aggro is basically moot

[elwing]

So yeah, warrior have a room in some special use case where you downgrade the quality of an ench/clr duo... But in any exp group with other melee where the mob usually dies in 20-30s a knight is the obvious choice, even your crazy warrior DPS pales in relation to your group nearby rogue, and the dps lost with a knight is easily compensated by the additional those other can put without carrying for agro or the mana used by support classes to ensure that you can keep agro using roots/blind assuming the mobs you hunt are even susceptible to that.

[magnetaress]

Knights steal exp especially on mobs my wizard can tank.

Would trade a Knight for a well played wiz, mage, dru, War, even a cleric casting rend any day.

Knights do make nice duos too.

Unless the Knights RPs good. The reason Knights exists is so there's a melee class that can solo a little bit with less downtime. In that case. Play a paladin.

[Lampolo]

So yeah, warrior have a room in some special use case where you downgrade the quality of an ench/clr duo... But in any exp group with other melee where the mob usually dies in 20-30s a knight is the obvious choice, even your crazy warrior DPS pales in relation to your group nearby rogue, and the dps lost with a knight is easily compensated by the additional those other can put without carrying for agro or the mana used by support classes to ensure that you can keep agro using roots/blind assuming the mobs you hunt are even susceptible to that.

The war does not downgrade the quality of an ench/clr duo. They add much needed stability and open up a lot of options.

I feel posts like these are made by an angry in denial sk or pally. Sorry you took advice on character creation from these forums.

[elwing]

I feel you are in denial if you don't see the value of knights in groups...

[Lampolo]

I feel you are in denial if you don't see the value of knights in groups...

Who said sk has no value in groups?

[Keebz]

Ahh the classic knight to warrior thread derail. TBH, it should really have been derailed into a monk thread. Warriors aren't great in small mans. They have one button. Monks get 2x the buttons, so 2x better.