Bard Starting Stat Debate Time, You Nerds

[ya.dingus]

Alright, starting allocations:

All into Dex or All into Cha?

I'm thinking all into Dex because it has an immediate return of not missing notes a billion times and each note not missed is one less wrist imploding motion over your long term bard career.

Also, CHA doesnt seem to really affect resist crit rates over 200.

Sources:

https://wiki.project1999.com/Bard

Dexterity - Affects how often weapons proc, how quickly you learn melee skills and reduces the chance to miss a note, bringing your song to a close (song fizzle). In a test comparing 100 songs on a 60 bard with 100 base DEX, 7 notes were missed. On geared 167 total DEX, 131 songs before a single note was missed.

https://www.project1999.com/forums/showthread.php?t=6733

GZ confirmed that the soft cap on Charisma is 200

https://www.project1999.com/forums/showthread.php?t=327383

95 cha (35.5%) - Crit every 11.3 casts
200 cha (7%) - Crit every 57.1 casts
255 cha (6%) - Crit every 66.7 casts

(assuming I did my math right hah)

I mean, that makes CHA sound pretty valuable as a pulling aid right up to 255. However I still really want to emphasize that the 7% vs 6% is such a small difference for a sample size of 200 that it could easily be noise and it is possible there is not actually any benefit above 200. I seriously doubt this, but these numbers don't rule that out.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

You should take a look at bard equipment and see what stat is harder to cap, DEX or CHA. Put points into whichever one is harder to cap. My hunch says CHA will be harder to cap with raid gear, but I am not 100% sure.

[ya.dingus]

You should take a look at bard equipment and see what stat is harder to cap, DEX or CHA. Put points into whichever one is harder to cap. My hunch says CHA will be harder to cap with raid gear, but I am not 100% sure.

Hnnnnggg but that takes more work on my own rather than asking someone who already knooooowwwss

[Crede]

Go STA. There’s a thread a few days old in this same class forum thread where this has already been discussed in detail

[ya.dingus]

Go STA. There’s a thread a few days old in this same class forum thread where this has already been discussed in detail

Not going to convince me that 100 or less extra HP is significant enough to matter when HP pools are over 4k.

Just insane people still hold this idea.

https://wiki.project1999.com/Game_Mechanics

Level 60 STA to HP Conversions
CLASS Hitpoint returns
WAR 1 STA = 6 HP
SHD / PAL 1 STA = 5.2 HP
RNG 1 STA = 4.2 HP
BRD / MNK / ROG 1 STA = 4 HP
CLR / DRU / SHM 1 STA = 3 HP
ENC / MAG / NEC / WIZ 1 STA = 2.4 HP
NOTE: Conversions scale up with level, this chart only shows level 60.
Level 50 STA to HP Conversions
CLASS Hitpoint returns
WAR 1 STA = 4.5 HP
SHD / PAL 1 STA = 3.8 HP
RNG 1 STA = 3.3 HP
BRD / MNK / ROG 1 STA = 3.0 HP
CLR / DRU / SHM 1 STA = 2.5 HP
ENC / MAG / NEC / WIZ 1 STA = 2.0 HP

[Toxigen]

sounds like you already convinced yourself to go all dex

enjoy your shit character

[ya.dingus]

sounds like you already convinced yourself to go all dex

enjoy your shit character

Actual stats or math please. Posting like a passive-aggressive housewife won't win you any arguments here.

[Crede]

Not going to convince me that 100 or less extra HP is significant enough to matter when HP pools are over 4k.

Just insane people still hold this idea.

https://wiki.project1999.com/Game_Mechanics

This is a game of inches. Bards just need to survive. Arguably more insane to think 25 extra dex or cha matters on a bard either. I’ve played a bard to 60, have you? Hp is king for them.

[ya.dingus]

This is a game of inches. Bards just need to survive. Arguably more insane to think 25 extra dex or cha matters on a bard either. I’ve played a bard to 60, have you? Hp is king for them.

100 hp wont save you from anything. You're mistaking talking about the length in your pants rather than effectiveness in the game (Both come up short, HEYO!).

You either have the resistances to live through a majority of aoes or you dont.

And don't act like kiting in large zones is going to make or break you on an extra 80 hp. If you get caught training the zone around on your bard, or blinded during fear kites, or whatever other nonsense, not having that 80 hp wont matter.

Arguing against boomer logic here is just so painful (It's always been done this way, we can't possibly have it wrong! AKA resistance to change in the face of overwhelming information). People absolutely refuse to acknowledge that with the information we have about mechanics now and stat contributions, people have been playing EQ less than optimally for over two decades.

Go work your 9-5 in office hours while the rest of us telecommute.

Begone with you.


P.S. yes, I have.

[patrick210]

Actual stats or math please. Posting like a passive-aggressive housewife won't win you any arguments here.

he's right, you posted for validation on your assumption, not to hear other peoples opinions. wake up
just make your toon and enjoy :) dont attack others for stating opinions you asked for lmao.

[ya.dingus]

he's right, you posted for validation on your assumption, not to hear other peoples opinions. wake up
just make your toon and enjoy :) dont attack others for stating opinions you asked for lmao.

Did I? Because I remember posting this


Alright, starting allocations:

All into Dex or All into Cha?

I'm thinking all into Dex because it has an immediate return of not missing notes a billion times and each note not missed is one less wrist imploding motion over your long term bard career.


Which puts my initial thoughts but asks a question to everyone else.

The only person to respond rationally is DeathsSilkyMist who told me to measure out stats on end game gear to figure it out.


The rest of you have posted just emotional bias, saying nothing of merit, with no stats, no strong arguments, and melting down in boomer fashion at what is a rebuttal to the conventional *wisdom* most smooth brains have in these forums.

I asked for stats and math. You and no one else have yet to provide those.

My posts have links with supporting stats and arguments, yours dont.


Classic boomer ego being bruised and responding emotionally by throwing ad-hominmen or pseudo-intellectual terms like "confirmation bias" or "validation" they probably heard in some feces stained subreddit worshiping Niel Degrasse Tyson from whence they crawled out from.

Sorry your bruised ego can't handle the heat.

P.S. I'm looking for educated opinions, not just opinions. You may not know the difference but those are formed based on supporting evidence.

[Duik]

Ya dingus = DSM.
Or at least has a small boner for him.

[ya.dingus]

Ya dingus = DSM.
Or at least has a small boner for him.

Your mom didn't have any complaints. Bam.

Still waiting on that supporting evidence rather than boomers being emotional and raging.

I'll wait.


https://external-content.duckduckgo.com/iu/?u=https%3A%2F%2Ftse1.mm.bing.net%2Fth%3Fid%3DOIP. bYgK9lTLJbkz7ae--D3nNQAAAA%26pid%3DApi&f=1&ipt=6964afb3da139e7ff00fce1c67a72c6cf01d8c01336b02 6cb3bd5b45b4f83695&ipo=images

[Ripqozko]

its sta, anything else is just convincing yourself, resists>hp>anything else is order of importance for bard.

Source: my original main was bard, i have 2 other bard alts. People sell their soul for 10hp, you think 100 aint great?

[ya.dingus]

its sta, anything else is just convincing yourself, resists>hp>anything else is order of importance for bard.

Again, this isn't an educated opinion.

I've pointed out, via the wiki post, 25 point contribution into Stamina at a 4hp return rate for a bard for a total 100 hp is negligible at 4k buffed hp pools.

You'll get all that stuff on your armor/gear/stats - so what is 100 extra hp? it's a drop in the bucket.

However, doing your role, either by reducing the total amount of missed notes over your character's lifetime, or the possibility of less death causing critical resists.

[Ripqozko]

Again, this isn't an educated opinion.

I've pointed out, via the wiki post, 25 point contribution into Stamina at a 4hp return rate for a bard for a total 100 hp is negligible at 4k buffed hp pools.

You'll get all that stuff on your armor/gear/stats - so what is 100 extra hp? it's a drop in the bucket.

However, doing your role, either by reducing the total amount of missed notes over your character's lifetime, or the possibility of less death causing critical resists.

You convinced yourself, why ask. Grats on your dex DSM.

[ya.dingus]

You convinced yourself, why ask. Grats on your dex DSM.

Why can't you just provide meaningful data other than your uneducated opinion?

It's a valid question. The initial topic is still open, dex or charisma, that hasn't been answered.

Seriously, add to the conversation with something other than your emotions or get out already. Stop wasting time.

It's like I gotta dunk on every smooth brain available on this forum to get to an actual answer now-a-days. These forums can be the absolute worst.

[Ripqozko]

Why can't you just provide meaningful data other than your uneducated opinion?

It's a valid question. The initial topic is still open, dex or charisma, that hasn't been answered.

Seriously, add to the conversation with something other than your emotions or get out already. Stop wasting time.

It's like I gotta dunk on every smooth brain available on this forum to get to an actual answer now-a-days. These forums can be the absolute worst.

Relax DSM

[wuanahto]

my 40 cha bard with crusty armor on is doing fine. put your points into stamina at start. end game velious gear will do the rest

On the yellow server, there will be even more enchanters since they can do what you do but better. this happened late blue, all of green. we got like two decades of experience here man

[ya.dingus]

Do any of you have an actual source better than the links and stats I have provided?

Like, do ANY of you have empirical evidence?

It's a simple yes or no.

[ya.dingus]

my 40 cha bard with crusty armor on is doing fine. put your points into stamina at start. end game velious gear will do the rest

On the yellow server, there will be even more enchanters since they can do what you do but better. this happened late blue, all of green. we got like two decades of experience here man

And yet, as time and time again proves, appeal to authority is a logical fallacy.

People still figuring out how to play classic wow better with the knowledge they have now gleaned.

It's the exact same here. The stats and links I have provided fly in the direct face of *conventional wisdom* on these forums.

And I'm going to press that point until someone posts statistics and data that are better than those sources provided.

Otherwise, everything else said here is meaningless boomer ego dribble.

[Ripqozko]

Do any of you have an actual source better than the links and stats I have provided?

Like, do ANY of you have empirical evidence?

It's a simple yes or no.

I mained it for years in, was in a team , Ib, then rampage (fasttimes) then changed mains in velious . Sta/hp is 2nd most important stat to resists. You can believe what you want tho DSM

[sajbert]

Never played bard beyond lvl 20 but I'll chip in and since we're having the discussion I take it we're minmaxing for endgame.

Look at a kit of bard BIS gear on your selected race of choice OR your ideal set of gear that you can stomach farming.

- Which stats aren't capped that aren't wisdom and agi?

- Do we wanna be as strong as possible solo self buffed or in a group or raid? What do we wish to achieve in either setting?


Unless you make it clear what the parameters are there's no point in arguing because it's apples and oranges really.

[red_demonman]

DEX cause when you are clicking a new song every 3 seconds any fizzles are just super duper annoying.

[ya.dingus]

I mained it for years in, was in a team , Ib, then rampage (fasttimes) then changed mains in velious . Sta/hp is 2nd most important stat to resists. You can believe what you want tho DSM

Mained it for years is not evidence. All I hear is "I've made suboptimal characters for nearly two decades, and never bothered questioning if I was wrong in doing so."

Post stats/evidence or get out.

It's literally that simple.

Save that Freudian interest in a random poster's genitals for whatever coom-brained, degenerate, shit subreddit you're used to posting in.

[Ripqozko]

Mained it for years is not evidence.

Post stats/evidence or get out.

It's literally that simple.

np DSM, take care

[Duik]

Waa, i cant get people to play my numbers game.
AGI for the win.
Like the WIS Necro.
It's true, game has been played to death.
The only true min/max option left is playing suboptimally, for the challenge.
Are you up to the challenge, big boy?
My mother thinks you are not.

[astuce999]

Waa, i cant get people to play my numbers game.
AGI for the win.
Like the WIS Necro.
It's true, game has been played to death.
The only true min/max option left is playing suboptimally, for the challenge.
Are you up to the challenge, big boy?
My mother thinks you are not.

Ha! I've practically done this challenge for Green. Tried to go for an agility-based build for level 1-60. Serpentine bracers, dragonhorn boots, cat-o-nine-tails and everything.

It was an interesting challenge, and I learned a lot of things about subtle p99 combat mechanics.

It did eventually have its limitations so after about 6 months or so I have since then switched to a more conventional hp-is-king approach to do some solo challenges with a lot more success. I rarely have any buffs so an extra 100hp makes an impact on almost every fight (current vs. total hp vs. mob hp vs. mob max hit are all interesting variables of combat mechanics no one ever talks about).

cheers,

Astuce

[ya.dingus]

Waa, i cant get people to play my numbers game.
AGI for the win.
Like the WIS Necro.
It's true, game has been played to death.
The only true min/max option left is playing suboptimally, for the challenge.
Are you up to the challenge, big boy?
My mother thinks you are not.

Nah you nerds just can't admit you were wrong the whole time. Getting blasted by anyone with the ability to search google and an excel spreadsheet.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

I created a test Magelo with BiS gear. It is a human since they start with 85 DEX and 85 CHA. This means it is easy to see what stat is higher after you apply gear. I put 12 points into DEX, 12 points into CHA, and 1 point into STR (just to avoid having DEX or CHA being higher).

https://wiki.project1999.com/Magelo_Blue:TestBardVeliousBiS01

As I thought, CHA is the harder stat to cap with BiS gear, so I would dump into CHA during character creation. A Human's STA is 246 pre-buffed, so dumping into STA would end up being a waste. CHA is like 50 points behind DEX. At 172 CHA, you would still end up being under 200 CHA pre-buffed after dumping 25 points into it. Bards may switch to different instruments other than epic in certain situations, so stats will change a bit based on what instrument you are using. Even taking that into account, you aren't going to be in a situation where CHA becomes higher than DEX.

Obviously people in non-BiS gear will have more variation in what their stats are, but generally speaking the trend with Velious era gear for melee classes is a focus on melee stats (STR, STA, DEX, AGI), and less focus on WIS, INT, and CHA.

[Ripqozko]

I created a test Magelo with BiS gear. It is a human since they start with 85 DEX and 85 CHA. This means it is easy to see what stat is higher after you apply gear. I put 12 points into DEX, 12 points into CHA, and 1 point into STR (just to avoid having DEX or CHA being higher).

https://wiki.project1999.com/Magelo_Blue:TestBardVeliousBiS01

As I thought, CHA is the harder stat to cap with BiS gear, so I would dump into CHA during character creation. a Human's STA is 246 pre-buffed, so dumping into STA would end up being a waste. CHA is like 50 points behind DEX. At 172 CHA, you would still end up being under 200 CHA pre-buffed. Bards may switch to different instruments other than epic in certain situations, so stats will change a bit based on what instrument you are using. Even taking that into account, you aren't going to be in a situation where CHA becomes higher than DEX.

Epic never comes off it goes in offhand, swap weapon in primary for drum for debuffing or selos , drums of beast means ya never have to unequip epic. Ya stats still change but no ya epic stays on

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Epic never comes off it goes in offhand, swap weapon in primary for drum for debuffing or selos , drums of beast means ya never have to unequip epic. Ya stats still change but no ya epic stays on

Ah thanks for that clarification. But yeah that was basically my point, your stat's aren't going to change drastically by swapping instruments. In BiS gear CHA is going to be much farther behind DEX, and STA will be high enough to be capped by buffs. So CHA is probably the best choice as the stat to dump your starting points into.

[ya.dingus]

I created a test Magelo with BiS gear. It is a human since they start with 85 DEX and 85 CHA. This means it is easy to see what stat is higher after you apply gear. I put 12 points into DEX, 12 points into CHA, and 1 point into STR (just to avoid having DEX or CHA being higher).

https://wiki.project1999.com/Magelo_Blue:TestBardVeliousBiS01

As I thought, CHA is the harder stat to cap with BiS gear, so I would dump into CHA during character creation. A Human's STA is 246 pre-buffed, so dumping into STA would end up being a waste. CHA is like 50 points behind DEX. At 172 CHA, you would still end up being under 200 CHA pre-buffed after dumping 25 points into it. Bards may switch to different instruments other than epic in certain situations, so stats will change a bit based on what instrument you are using. Even taking that into account, you aren't going to be in a situation where CHA becomes higher than DEX.

Obviously people in non-BiS gear will have more variation in what their stats are, but generally speaking the trend with Velious era gear for melee classes is a focus on melee stats (STR, STA, DEX, AGI), and less focus on WIS, INT, and CHA.

This man over here doing the lord's work. Well done. Adding this to the archive for actual min/max options on bard creation.

Well done.

[Duik]

Add to wiki newb pages as well.
Gods work must mean math > resist > hp > the rest.
Yes, because everyone has and WILL get BIS gear. Ya Dingus. YDG Ya Din Gus
At least ya got one thing correct.

[ya.dingus]

Add to wiki newb pages as well.
Gods work must mean math > resist > hp > the rest.
Yes, because everyone has and WILL get BIS gear. Ya Dingus. YDG Ya Din Gus
At least ya got one thing correct.

Yes because we should consider non-min max options in a min max discussion.

Someone is salty for being wrong.

That's okay though, I love dunking on mouth breathing boomers all day, and this forum is in no short supply of them. I'm like the larry bird of forum post trash talk. I live for it.

If you don't have the maths, you don't have room to talk.

Despite our disagreements, Misty is like the only person I legitimately respect on these forums.That's saying a lot, because I don't hold many if any of you in high regard, if at all.

Shout out to Misty for the work.

[pink grapefruit]

Do any of you have an actual source better than the links and stats I have provided?

Like, do ANY of you have empirical evidence?

It's a simple yes or no.

if you want empirical evidence you should be getting in contact with some bards here. should be pretty easy to test the impact of dex and cha. dex is useful, but i don't think it's useful for the reason you want it to be.

i've yet to see any empirical evidence that missed notes or twisting songs results in carpal implosion. and missed notes happen immediately (at the start of a song) and cost no mana. they're a minor annoyance more than something that is super detrimental to a bard's performance.

when you get your epic though you're gonna want all the dex you can get.

[Crede]

People throw around BiS like it’s the equivalent in ease of killing an orc pawn. most people just don’t even get remotely close. It’s a shitload of dkp and you’re better off just spreading that around multiple characters. Cha is technically the min max for wars too, but no war is putting their starting stats in cha.

Cha is not a waste as a bard but know that you’re missing out on 100 hp for probably the lifetime of your character since 99.9% of bards are not getting bis including ya dingus.

[ya.dingus]

if you want empirical evidence you should be getting in contact with some bards here. should be pretty easy to test the impact of dex and cha. dex is useful, but i don't think it's useful for the reason you want it to be.

i've yet to see any empirical evidence that missed notes or twisting songs results in carpal implosion. and missed notes happen immediately (at the start of a song) and cost no mana. they're a minor annoyance more than something that is super detrimental to a bard's performance.

when you get your epic though you're gonna want all the dex you can get.

It's the ben franklin saying. Penny saved is a penny earned.

Play a bard over two years, and your button presses will be well over in the tens of thousands for missed notes.

This is literally a case that a minor change in the short term, is a major saving in the long term.


Though as Misty said, still harder to get CHA long term than Dex. So the Min/Max option clearly is dumping points into CHA.

[Borak]

In any event, if we're talking about BIS or striving for BIS, you won't put points into DEX because odds are, you'll have a primal in your bag before you reach BIS. Once you proc avatar, your DEX goes up 100. I'm geared fairly well but not BIS, and once avatar procs, STR AGI DEX all hit 255.

The most important thing to do, if you haven't committed yet, is to choose human. It's a bit late for me to reroll but if I could I'd choose human for the most important reason - when you click halfling mask and then proc avatar, you become a barbarian sized halfling. I'm stuck at human sized halfling because I rolled wood elf. Learn from my mistake!

[Crede]

In any event, if we're talking about BIS or striving for BIS, you won't put points into DEX because odds are, you'll have a primal in your bag before you reach BIS. Once you proc avatar, your DEX goes up 100. I'm geared fairly well but not BIS, and once avatar procs, STR AGI DEX all hit 255.

The most important thing to do, if you haven't committed yet, is to choose human. It's a bit late for me to reroll but if I could I'd choose human for the most important reason - when you click halfling mask and then proc avatar, you become a barbarian sized halfling. I'm stuck at human sized halfling because I rolled wood elf. Learn from my mistake!

Human basically min max fashion for every class!

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Human basically min max fashion for every class!

Even I have a human for fashion. Human Enchanter.

[pink grapefruit]

It's the ben franklin saying. Penny saved is a penny earned.

Play a bard over two years, and your button presses will be well over in the tens of thousands for missed notes.

This is literally a case that a minor change in the short term, is a major saving in the long term.


Though as Misty said, still harder to get CHA long term than Dex. So the Min/Max option clearly is dumping points into CHA.

do you have a history of CTS? i was serious about the wrist implosion thing. to operate under the assumption that bard twisting causes cts is a huge leap in logic for someone requesting empirical evidence concerning game mechanics.

i don't remember the bard communities actually having major complaints about this back in the day, or pretty much ever. it was mostly just a joke or old wive's tale, as far as i know.

[Duik]

What be a boomer.
Yes, on occasion i do use my white lined front facehole to breath.
Pleased to be insulting me with efficiency, me needing to question you regarding your malicious intent is quite the inefficiency, math remember.
I suggest you could do better, given more parameters.
My mother is dead so, unless you some kinda sick cunt "having her" is sorta off the table, i am rather poor, health wise and fiscally.
Ugly enough to scare MTG. Stoopid like a fox and have zero fucks what you think.
Go!
FWIW, dex is the correct answer.

[Crede]

Even I have a human for fashion. Human Enchanter.

Solid choice, second best cha, and more str/stamina. Arguably one of the best if not the min max enc choice since INT is easy to come by

[Vivitron]

In any event, if we're talking about BIS or striving for BIS, you won't put points into DEX because odds are, you'll have a primal in your bag before you reach BIS. Once you proc avatar, your DEX goes up 100. I'm geared fairly well but not BIS, and once avatar procs, STR AGI DEX all hit 255.

The most important thing to do, if you haven't committed yet, is to choose human. It's a bit late for me to reroll but if I could I'd choose human for the most important reason - when you click halfling mask and then proc avatar, you become a barbarian sized halfling. I'm stuck at human sized halfling because I rolled wood elf. Learn from my mistake!

I think illusion: werewolf and avatar proc probably stacked in this era on live but I haven't been able to pin down enough evidence. How cool would it be to be even a human sized werewolf?

[Ennewi]

https://wiki.project1999.com/Divine_Intervention

Bestows the favor of the gods upon your target, granting them a second chance at life should they fall in battle. Consumes a pair of emeralds when cast. The chance for this to succeed is affected by the target's charisma.

Note: Mechanics of this spell are such that any hit taken while the player is between 15% and 1% health has a chance to proc a CH and consume the DI. This is why it only very rarely works against Death Touch, the player must have had to be under 15% first which likely would've gotten them killed by low hp aggro anyways.

Never really heard of DI being used on bards, but if the comment about death touch is correct than that would add more late game value to any starting point investment in charisma, particularly when blood aggro kiting/fteing in fear. That said, even without prioritizing the stat, at max level it's easy to reach 130 worn. And, with epic mod appied, Solon's Charismatic Concord amounts +80 cha.

[Jimjam]

By DSM's suggested BIS

9 sta human

14 sta half elf

dump charisma.


didn't calculate wood elf

edit 19 sta for wood elf

[Toxigen]

100 hp wont save you from anything.

wrongerino ya jabroni