Ogre is a Noob Trap

[ya.dingus]

We now have definitive proof that going over 200 of any stat has a very large diminishing return (nearly a 1% difference in actual output for any given stat).

In light of this, if you plan to play and gear your character in any kind of velious gear, you are overstating your character tremendously in where it matters (str, stamina), and losing an egregious amount of points in other areas (dex, wis, int).

In kunark it may have made sense to play an ogre because you could not reach these caps, but if you roll an ogre today, in velious, and gear them at all, you're left with a demonstrable weaker character than anyone who roles a any other race class combo that ogres possess.

And no, FSI does not make up for a nearly 45-50% overstating issue in the gear that's currently available in game.

In short, Ogre is a noob trap.

[Toxigen]

no u

[Vivitron]

Sta clearly gives full returns up to 255. Str probably does too.

[ya.dingus]

Sta clearly gives full returns up to 255. Str probably does too.

They dont. It's all diminishing.


https://www.project1999.com/forums/showthread.php?t=414966


I noticed something interesting today. It seems that in addition to the weapon damage caps that unlock as you level up, there is also just a maximum damage cap that you cannot go above (similar to pets).

With a 20 damage weapon, my damage is always capped at 84, with 255 STR, Avatar, and 200 offense.

With a 18 damage weapon, my damage is always capped at 76, with 255 STR, Avatar, and 200 offense.

With a 15 damage weapon, my damage is always capped at 63, with 255 STR, Avatar, and 200 offense.

When my strength is 200 and my offense is 200 (no Avatar), I do 80 damage with a 20 damage weapon. This matches the formula Weapon Damage * (([Offense Skill] + [STR]) / 100), and Shamans don't get any damage bonuses.

If there wasn't a damage cap, I should be doing at least 90 damage with 255 STR, and more with Avatar.

This means the maximum damage cap for 60 Shamans is 4.2 Damage per 1 Weapon Damage.

[Toxigen]

sounds like you're the noob trap

[Philistine]

I feel like the ease with which stats are capped is a little overstated on the forums sometimes. It takes pretty much BIS to straight-up cap STR, STA, DEX for non-largr races.

This doesn't mean I regret my non-large race choice for my warrior main, but he's got decent stuff and still isn't close to 255 STA; in fact, until recently I had to be careful not to drop below 205 STA.

[Vivitron]

They dont. It's all diminishing.


https://www.project1999.com/forums/showthread.php?t=414966

For sta it's trivial to get a sta buff and watch your hp; you get full returns up to 255 hard cap.

For str it's murkier. We don't know what p99 does internally but if you follow that thread you'll see the max hits match what you'd get from eqemu's code (except a bug of sk/pally/bard being on the wrong damage table on p99). We don't know what p99 does internally, but we can use the matching max hits to guess that it might follow the same formula as eqemu.

Eqemu uses str by adding weapon skill + (str-75)*2/3 + atk into one variable. It then uses that variable to both roll against the targets mitigation to see what your base weapon damage is multiplied by in the range of 0.1 to 2; no apparent diminishing returns for that use. Second it often rolls for a bonus multiplier -- that multiplier is capped -- you still roll your full number but if you roll above the max the value is clamped to the max. That arguably is diminishing returns.

A 60 melee would hit those diminishing returns with 255 str when their atk+weapon skill exceeds 315. So, if it's like eqemu one of the two returns diminishes, but it is as much a +atk diminishing return as +str and doesn't have anything to do with the 200 str line.

[Jimjam]

1) You want to be overcap for buffer from cripple/incapacitate.
2) ogres have a huge pool of str/sta in addition to their other stats. Its not like all races have an equal str sta dex agi sum.
3) still doesn’t really matter, all races are sufficiently capable. Level then gear are most important factors.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

They dont. It's all diminishing.


https://www.project1999.com/forums/showthread.php?t=414966

I haven't seen anything that shows STR has diminishing returns for melee classes over 200. The quote of mine you shared was talking about max damage. Priest classes have a lower max damage cap than melee classes. So far it looks like Melee max damage is something like 6 damage per 1 weapon damage, compared to a Shaman's 4 damage per 1 weapon damage.

Even when you hit the max damage for your class, having higher ATK/STR increases your chances of hitting for max damage.

The reason why Trolls/Ogres are generally the best races for the classes they can pick is because Regeneration/FSI and Slam is going to be a bigger boost than a few stat points. AGI is basically a dead stat, DEX can be capped by any race, and while CHA is useful for Divine Intervention, no guild is requiring a Warrior to be a race with higher base CHA to increase Divine Intervention chances. This is why medium/small races don't really have enough of an advantage to be considered better. It would be a different story if AGI was actually a good stat, then it may be a slightly more complex scenario. Gnome Warrior and maybe Halfling Warrior can be argued to be better in specific cases, but not because of stats. Gnome Warriors are going to solo better with the 40% spell haste from Clockwork Arms, and Halflings can sneak through raid zones like VP.

[Toxigen]

*snaps suspenders, adjusts monocle*

[magnetaress]

I 1000% agree with Op. Even in vanilla. You will have buffs. Being 20 points behind = literally 4% of effectiveness.

Your lvl 50 ogre sk will have a marginally higher dps output in a select few situations.

U know what matters more? A dark elf with both high int and dex.

Get wrekted u big sweaty newbz.

Also barbarians get awesome bonus gear and lvling spots in vanilla.

Literally only troll regen is a factor. And only prior to kunark and lvl 60 solo.

[Snaggles]

The more casual you are with a melee class the more an ogre helps in terms of end gear itemization. Capping stamina with a non-giant race is possible but not easy. Capping strength is even harder since tank gear has a lot of stamina and not much else. Unless you are talking BiS or nearly BiS stuff.

Worst case with an ogre you have marginal dex and agility, have to shrink without illusions, have a 15% penalty. Str and Sta capping easy means free hps and higher attack.

It’s not going to change what you can or cant tank. It’s not an endgame limitation. It’s not a “trap” again unless you think it will make you noticeably better.

[Gustoo]

The stats you will max with velious no matter what as you say if you BIS

Ogre gets FSI and large weapon capability
Troll gets regen and large weapon capability.

Small races get none of those things. Only good thing is Halfling exp bonus and dwarf MR bonus

And size

Be whoever you want, but the reason those races win (in addition to nice power when you’re poorly geared) are the indisputable racial traits

You could try to parse identical elf vs ogre or troll warriors and see who hits more often there is fantasy level theory quest that wood elf’s have hit box advantage compared to a big ogre that can impact their damage output or the damage they receive. Maybe.

[greatdane]

None of the classes that can pick ogre care much about capping strength, so it's largely irrelevant whether or not you overcap it, or if it hits diminishing returns after 200.

Stamina doesn't have diminishing returns, and in order to cap it out with a non-large race, you need some pretty high-end gear that most players don't really have access to.

For shamans, the difference in wisdom between ogre and the race with the highest wisdom (iksar) is a paltry 13 points, so there's no meaningful disadvantage.

The only class that cares about dexterity is warrior, and there's a mere 20-point difference from ogre to the races with the highest DEX (dwarf/halfling). Compare that to the difference in STR/STA.

Meanwhile, never getting stunned is useful at all times to all characters. Tanks benefit from never going into derpy spin-mode if they get bashed while turning. Casters benefit from casting through bash more often than not.



Let's sum up the relevant stats of each race for the three classes that can go ogre. Less significant but still-relevant stats in paranthesis.

Warrior: STA, DEX (STR, AGI)

Shadow Knight: STA, INT (STR, AGI)

Shaman: WIS, STA

Sum of each race:

WARRIOR
Ogre: 202 (215)
Troll: 194 (206)
Barb: 175 (200)
Dwarf: 190 (175)
Halfl: 175 (180)
Iksar: 165 (175)
W-elf: 155 (175)
H-elf: 165 (175)
Gnm: 165 (160)
Hum: 160 (165)
D-elf: 150 (160)

SHADOW KNIGHT
Ogre: 197 (210)
Troll: 179 (201)
Iksar: 160 (170)
Erud: 192 (140)
Hum: 165 (160)
D-elf: 179 (160)

SHAMAN
Ogre: 204
Troll: 184
Barb: 180
Iksar: 165

So in terms of raw stats, ogres are considerably better than the other races for all classes that can be ogre. Not only that but their highest stat is the most important one, the one that all the min-maxers say to put all your points into for non-ogre characters. It's not only a higher sum of numbers but also placed predominantly in the most important stat. I hesitated to even place INT as a primary stat for SKs since mana pool doesn't really matter all that much, but if I hadn't, the gap between ogre and the other races would have been downright hilarious.

And while in theory anyone can cap out their STR/STA in the endgame, how long does it take from a fresh server's launch until you're sporting multiple pieces of Velious raid loot and a full set of Skyshrine or whatever? Two and a half years of play or something along those lines? All the way up until then, the ogre stats are especially awesome. In classic in particular, just having that much natural strength is a godsend that will earn you potentially hundreds of plat per day in fine steel weapons you didn't have to discard. Having like 120-140 strength naked is insanely convenient at the launch of a fresh server, and remains relevant even through Kunark with its statless armor sets and general lack of raid loot with strength. It's entirely normal for even full-time Kunark raiders to have no more than 20-30ish points of strength from gear, unless it's a rogue who geared specifically for it and is still wearing Hero Bracers and shit like that.

[Solist]

Gnome clearly superior looking at that.

[magnetaress]

ppl who are PRO ogre are so die hard ogre it borders on a personality disorder. So I would be suspicious about ogre being the cureall-so-good-solution to all of the worlds problems.

It really isn't.

Don't let this sweaty pressure pressure u into being an ogre. Be what you want to be, there are pros and cons to every combo.

The only time I would recommend OGRE style min max is:
* you have very limited play time and will probably only be one character ever anyway and never have any good gear past entry level kunark --- in which case, pick TROLL or IKSAR as the regen will give you much more out of your limited play time and your stats will still be plenty sufficient

--- that above case is a great reason to pick ogre, because you start out where everyone will be

the difference end game and in groups truly isn't that impressive

if you are going to tank dragons and statues ---- being an ogre is irrelevant, having a competant team is more relevant 1 DPM on a CH of 5dpm vs 6dpm will not make a single bit of difference, especially on this timeline where everyone one shots these mobs and logs into their next account parked at the next mob so they don't have to run

It's silly to say "Ogre" is better in this scenario. Waste hours on being an ogre and being fustrated and quitting by lvl 39 because you are fat, still don't have shrink, and are depressed. And everyone else is an depressed ogre hoping they get lvl 60 one day, then be bored because their character is cardboard stamped off an assembly line for feeding the raid and solo machine and sickness that is not roleplaying.

Now--- a properly roll played ogre is something to behold. I haven't seen one in a few years though.

[eqravenprince]

It's the crouching through doors that make me not like Ogres. Other than that, I love them. Feerrott is the best newbie zone!

[DeathsSilkyMist]

ppl who are PRO ogre are so die hard ogre it borders on a personality disorder. So I would be suspicious about ogre being the cureall-so-good-solution to all of the worlds problems.


Nobody is actually die hard pro Ogre. People simply state the facts that the big races are better statistically and have better racials.

Everquest, before any expansion, was designed around the idea that faction and inconvenience of travel would balance out Ogre/Troll superior stats and racials. Even though Ogres/Trolls clearly have the advantage, they are hated in a lot of places, which means it would be hard to buy/sell supplies like bandages. To brand new players who didn't know much about the game, this did indeed balance Ogres/Trolls out to a large degree. A Human with access to bandages in basically every other zone would be able to get back in the fight faster than even a Troll, and you could have a Magician friend who could summon them instead.

But every expansion basically chipped away at these constraints, because people complained (I assume). Both Kunark and Velious don't really have specific faction that is deterimental to Ogres/Trolls specifically, so everybody has an equal playing field in that sense. With Druids and Wizards being higher level when the expansions came out, travel became less of an issue too. So the only thing that remained is the superior stats and racials. That is why Ogres/Trolls are the best in P99, because faction and travel are trivialized, so Ogres/Trolls aren't constrained by the very things that were meant to balance them out.

I haven't seen anybody on these forums force people to be any race. New players ask questions about races, and they get answers as to which races are objectively better. I don't see anybody saying that Ogres/Trolls are so vastly superior it is impossible to make another choice, either. Give players the facts, and let them decide what they want to play. It's that simple.

[drackgon]

Just going to point out something a lot of peeps seem to forget. Yes in the far end game No race truly matters. Gnome for mages for coth probably only thing that truly matters in the end game.

But early game what helps Orges at start? Is being able to carry everything under the sun. It made me way more money while in groups peeps leaving that Bronze/FS on ground, bc their wizzy/enc/cleric(wearing plate and near encumbered). Yeah sometimes I'd offer to /split and sell with group, but most time peeps would just bail and = extra plat for me to buy spells/twink alts/pay for ports/buy the first like Mithril 2 hander sold/dark reaver etc.

Yeah that str/stm end game is going to be capped. But meh at the very start it helps. Totally for war/SK. Heck even shmmys but they can summon bags early on.

[pink grapefruit]

ppl who are PRO ogre are so die hard ogre it borders on a personality disorder.

🤣🤣

[Gustoo]

The poster who said int doesn’t matter for SK doesn’t know about SKs which are merely shit warriors when they are OOM. Mana pool matters for SK

[Toxigen]

The poster who said int doesn’t matter for SK doesn’t know about SKs which are merely shit warriors when they are OOM. Mana pool matters for SK

Nah. Flowing Thought matters for SKs.

[Lampolo]

You develope a character for 3 years around the idea of min/max for velious raids and then you realize everything is zerged and you could probly do it naked

[Gustoo]

Correct.

The race you pick on non pvp should be the race you wanna be in your heart / half role play thing

For pvp it kinda matters when your fat sk at level 15 just stomps shorties and elf’s because hitting for max every swing.

[Snaggles]

The stats you will max with velious no matter what as you say if you BIS

Yea IF BiS. Most people aren’t BiS. Even casual elf raiders will struggle to max stamina with quality HP optimized gear and riotous health.

Here is a SK with tanking gear. DE and Ogre.

https://wiki.project1999.com/Magelo_Blue:TestKnight

https://wiki.project1999.com/Magelo_Blue:TestKnight2

My 70sta paladin is a casual raider and has 214 STA with a rocksmasher and a number of upgrades from these magelos. Far from BiS though.

Attack is really important (unless you dont parse and don’t care) and the difference between these two is basically innate CoTP while running around. It’s not quite as bad raid buffed since the ogre overcapps but is still far ahead of the DE.

Note: It still doesn’t matter in the end. It’s just a measurable difference (just like mana of DE vs ogre) if you don’t plan to have city leader or high end ToV loot. Plenty of crappy players with BiS gear though so it’s not a measure of your ability to accomplish anything (skill > all).

[Gustoo]

Yep. I agree completely.

For the classes that an ogre and a troll can be they are the best picks if you’re happy being a fatty.

I used to be a ogre guy but now I favor the troll regen, despite bad INT on an SK

[greatdane]

ppl who are PRO ogre are so die hard ogre it borders on a personality disorder.

People keep saying shit like this, yet all of these discussions stem from someone going "ogre actually sucks, you guys are retarded for thinking it's good!" Nobody is making threads titled 'actually ogre is superior to all and anyone who isn't playing an ogre is dumb!' However, people routinely find the need to make threads talking about how overrated ogres are. The discussions always start there, not from the pro-ogre side.

It's the anti-ogre brigade that has an unhealthy obsession with cramming their view down everyone's throats. The "pro-ogre" players just point out how demonstrably incorrect it is that ogres suck, and are subsequently labeled fanatics by irrational people like you. Of the two "factions," for lack of a better term, the pro-ogre ones are by far the more level-headed and sensible. The anti-ogre crowd are the ones who are hysterically hostile.

Anti-ogre people: "ogres SUCK and you're literally idiots if you can't see it."

Pro-ogre people: "that's not true, ogres are quite good."

You: "PRO-OGRE PEOPLE HAVE A PERSONALITY DISORDER! LOOK HOW FANATICALLY OBSESSED THEY ARE!!!"

Can't you see how utterly absurd your statement is? It's the literal exact opposite of the truth. Like it isn't possible to be any more wrong than you are.

[greatdane]

Nobody is actually die hard pro Ogre. People simply state the facts that the big races are better statistically and have better racials.

Everquest, before any expansion, was designed around the idea that faction and inconvenience of travel would balance out Ogre/Troll superior stats and racials. Even though Ogres/Trolls clearly have the advantage, they are hated in a lot of places, which means it would be hard to buy/sell supplies like bandages. To brand new players who didn't know much about the game, this did indeed balance Ogres/Trolls out to a large degree. A Human with access to bandages in basically every other zone would be able to get back in the fight faster than even a Troll, and you could have a Magician friend who could summon them instead.

But every expansion basically chipped away at these constraints, because people complained (I assume). Both Kunark and Velious don't really have specific faction that is deterimental to Ogres/Trolls specifically, so everybody has an equal playing field in that sense. With Druids and Wizards being higher level when the expansions came out, travel became less of an issue too. So the only thing that remained is the superior stats and racials. That is why Ogres/Trolls are the best in P99, because faction and travel are trivialized, so Ogres/Trolls aren't constrained by the very things that were meant to balance them out.

I haven't seen anybody on these forums force people to be any race. New players ask questions about races, and they get answers as to which races are objectively better. I don't see anybody saying that Ogres/Trolls are so vastly superior it is impossible to make another choice, either. Give players the facts, and let them decide what they want to play. It's that simple.

While the disparity in stats probably does come in part from the notion that ogres and trolls were meant to be harder to play, it's mostly a product of the fact that Brad McQuaid copied the races wholesale from another game called SojournMUD but didn't manage to make the stats work the same way as they do in EQ. In that game, agility had a huge impact on armor class, like in AD&D, so an agile elf had considerably more avoidance than an ogre. Dexterity also increased chances of additional attacks, so it had a significant impact on melee DPS. There also wasn't any such thing as Complete Heal in that game, and damage/healing was generally more granular and measured, so maximizing HP wasn't such a big concern. Imagine if every 50 points of agility affected AC as much as going from 74 to 75 does. That's how it was in that game. Coupled with the lack of any stat caps, it made race choice matter way more and your race determined what type of content you should be tanking.

On that MUD, the most popular tank races were wood elf for their extreme agility, and barbarian and troll for their good balance of constitution and agility. You can see the exact same thing reflected in EQ's races, except agility doesn't really matter. On Sojourn, Ogres were niche utility tanks whose main purpose was to be unbashable by most enemies due to their large size, and able to themselves bash enemies that no other race could. Since strength governed crit chance, and certain weapons had powerful procs on crit, that was another role of ogre warriors. They were never the go-to main tanks for general content, however. They had shit AC.

Then Everquest copied the stat lineups of the races but failed to make AGI/DEX matter, and made it so that your HP pool was hugely important due to the existence of CH and raid bosses that could potentially one-shot a tank. But the actual stats of the races are just copied wholesale from another game where Brad McQuaid pretty much plagiarized most of Everquest from. He just didn't manage to adequately convert the stat effects from AD&D-style combat to Everquest's engine.

In other words, ogres are so good in EQ because:

1) Agility is nearly worthless due to laughably miniscule returns after the 75 breakpoint.
2) You can eventually cap out your stats regardless, and ogres have a strong innate ability irrespective of stats.
3) Maximum hit points matters way more in EQ than in AD&D-based games that came before it.

[drackgon]

Yep. I agree completely.

For the classes that an ogre and a troll can be they are the best picks if you’re happy being a fatty.

I used to be a ogre guy but now I favor the troll regen, despite bad INT on an SK

Regen and less XP(but you probablly make up that xp loss bc of said regen allowing you to kill more) vs Orge little more int and FSI imo its 50/50. both are solid choices. Totally early green 2.0

But DE with higher int, and can pot bound themselves for free imo if your going to design your toon for end game velious. And saves you from having to farm DE mask for the big boys.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Great posts Greatdane!

[Snaggles]

Can't you see how utterly absurd your statement is? It's the literal exact opposite of the truth. Like it isn't possible to be any more wrong than you are.

Why discuss with rudimentary math when you can sling ad hominems? :) jk . I feel your pain.

I think people who say “___ is everything” or “_____ doesn’t matter at all” are by definition hyperbolically ridiculous. I bought into the “with velious all your stats will cap so it doesn’t matter” for years. It’s not true unless you are an extreme raider but is the counterpoint to the contrary statement we hear more frequently. At least the exaggeration comes from a more grounded place.

There is some measurable benefit but to what degree? Will it save a raid, a group, or even your own life when soloing? The last might be the most true for lack of other rounding teammates…that said I’ve been just as happy to have giant race slam to interupt as frustrated from a death due to getting stuck in zone geometry.

The more casual you are the more racial stats will matter so far as squeezing that performance balloon in one direction or the other. Making good gear and gameplay decisions is far more important as is your level. 400 extra extra hps is a big deal but won’t make up for bad tanking or bad healing.

Every SK with comparable gear and skill have the same aggro generation, solo ability, etc. Maybe a bit of benefit to more mana if you are using the whole tank of gas down to the vapors.

Small warriors can easily get close to 6k hps with minimal raiding. Fatties have it easier. On extreme levels all this goes away quickly. Not even the edge lords favor on tank race over another on the toughest targets in the game unless it’s like Tunare where broad shoulders actually help.

TLDR, is any race pick a “trap”? No, that’s stupid. It’s also not a boon that will make up for a bad player. Team Ogre is as annoying as Team No-Ogre because it’s usually delivered with the grace and context of a bumper sticker or baseball cap. From my own experience most the ogre ravers are fairly new or naive players…they just don’t have the context or would rather posture on a mouse click.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

TLDR, is any race pick a “trap”? No, that’s stupid. It’s also not a boon that will make up for a bad player. Team Ogre is as annoying as Team No-Ogre because it’s usually delivered with the grace and context of a bumper sticker or baseball cap. From my own experience most the ogre ravers are fairly new or naive players…they just don’t have the context or would rather posture on a mouse click.

I am curious which "ogre ravers" you are referring to. I agree with GreatDane, I haven't seen people on these forums make posts with headlines such as "if you aren't an Ogre, stop playing".

People who are anti-Ogre generally say things that aren't true, so people correct them.

As has been said many times, no race is unplayable in the game. Just give people the facts (more stats = better, some racials are better than others), and let them decide how they want to play.

I really don't understand why people have such a hard time with this on these forums.

[Gustoo]

Yeah / thread

[Snaggles]

I am curious which "ogre ravers" you are referring to. I agree with GreatDane, I haven't seen people on these forums make posts with headlines such as "if you aren't an Ogre, stop playing".

People who are anti-Ogre generally say things that aren't true, so people correct them.

As has been said many times, no race is unplayable in the game. Just give people the facts (more stats = better, some racials are better than others), and let them decide how they want to play.

I really don't understand why people have such a hard time with this on these forums.

I don’t find your angle particularly researched or unique (sorry…that wasn’t aimed at you, it’s a bumper sticker we hear a lot from both sides). I’ve played this game for about 20 years and the majority of my posts aren’t in support of any one thing.

I’ve had ogres, trolls, elves, littles. I don’t care frankly. I put together a test magelo to show some objective data comparing giant races to small ones with moderate tanking gear and it favored large races. I still posted it because again, I’m not caught in a sunken cost fallacy. I find results interesting, not personally attacking.

As for why people have such “trouble with topics like this on the forum” maybe you should find a different proxy to argue that point. Pot, kettle, and all that.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

I don’t find your angle particularly researched or unique (sorry…that wasn’t aimed at you, it’s a bumper sticker we hear a lot from both sides). I’ve played this game for about 20 years and the majority of my posts aren’t in support of any one thing.

I’ve had ogres, trolls, elves, littles. I don’t care frankly. I put together a test magelo to show some objective data comparing giant races to small ones with moderate tanking gear and it favored large races. I still posted it because again, I’m not caught in a sunken cost fallacy. I find results interesting, not personally attacking.

As for why people have such “trouble with topics like this on the forum” maybe you should find a different proxy to argue that point. Pot, kettle, and all that.

I have probably done more research on the topic than most people on these forums (for P99 specifically, other Everquest servers are irrelevant). I don't find it personally attacking either, but a lot of people do resort to personal attacks (not saying you are doing that).

The "bumper stickers" mostly come from the people who argue without data. Not saying you are doing that, but that has been my experience on these forums. Someone will make a "factual" argument, but never actually back it up.

There is no "sunken cost" fallacy going on here. Some people like fashion, some people like min/max, some people don't care. Give people the facts and let them decide how they want to play. I just find it interesting that P99 specifically has people who want to obscure the data (not saying you are doing that) for some reason.

[Snaggles]

Very sorry about that. I overreacted. Still heavily jet lagged :(

Agreed, it’s just math either way. Much of it is easily measurable with the green numbers. In many cases an evil race will be beneficial over a good race, especially if casually geared (most people are). They got xp penalties for a reason. As for if unjustifiably so, that’s a debate for another day.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Very sorry about that. I overreacted. Still heavily jet lagged :(

Agreed, it’s just math either way. Much of it is easily measurable with the green numbers. In many cases an evil race will be beneficial over a good race, especially if casually geared (most people are). They got xp penalties for a reason. As for if unjustifiably so, that’s a debate for another day.

No worries at all, I didn't take offense. I always hate jet lag.

[Fammaden]

You guys realize this thread was started by a dipshit internet-troll who should probably not be allowed to even start threads here in the new player section, right?

[magnetaress]

so like 8 pages ago i just said ogres aren't that good and now we have this thread...

i stand corrected

"Ogres are the best by any metric that matters to a min maxer".

Hope that satisfies u all

(P.s. lol at using min/max for a metric in a game that doesnt need it and where the min max makes a literal under 4% difference unless u are desperate or die hard, which is what i said)

[greatdane]

so like 8 pages ago i just said ogres aren't that good and now we have this thread...

No, you also managed to diagnose everyone who disagrees with you, with a "personality disorder." Fuck you. You don't get to pretend like you're not the one who kicked off this shit.

You made a shitty, disgusting post and we called you out on it. You don't get to go "geeze, I just said..."

You were a moron when you said what you said. If you've changed entirely overnight, well, good for you. But you were a piece of shit yesterday.

[Fammaden]

We need more greatdanes and less madnetaresses and OP's on the board.

[magnetaress]

not everyone but u are cursing at me and being rude as fuck which is a strong indication

also disparaging my post and dehumanizing me cuz i dont agree

yep --- def closing in on BPD maybe NPD

hope this helps !

[greatdane]

You've not, then, become a decent person overnight. I had some hopes for that but I can't say I held my breath. You are still a shitty person, it turns out. I wish you the best of luck for the rest of your life. It'll be a tough life, being a piece of shit, but that was the route you chose. We can only watch you follow it. We can only laugh and clap our hands as we watch.

[Gustoo]

All because someone told him being an ogre might not be worth it?

I for one pick fatties for my SK WAR SHM needs but don’t care when someone picks an elf

[sajbert]

Without Guise or AoN Ogre is a pain, even with Shrink Pots. Shaman can arguably get away but even in outdoor zones Ogre size sucks.

Stats are good, capping stats even in velious isn’t easy and getting to 60 is a looong road for the average player. That said, troll stats aren’t bad either and size is much easier to deal with and unlikr iksar has no plate restrictions and isn’t hated literally everywhere.

FSI is good but so is regen. As such I dare say noobs shouldn’t go Ogres if it isn’t what they think is coolest.

[Naethyn]

CHA should be listed on warrior stat counts.

[Gustoo]

Only important to human warrior fans hehe it is a good raid stat so yeah you’re right