SK's Aggro Spells Not Working

[choice]

SK's disease cloud is not working since the last patch. It does not draw aggro any longer. Even other aggro spells like shadow vortex does not work as well as before.

I don't think it's an intentional patch to nerf SK, so I reckon it must be a bug. I don't think SK would have any aggro problem in P99's eras. It hit the SK class very, very, very hard. As it stands, SK as a class is no longer viable. I hope it gets attention to get this fixed as soon as possible.

Thank you.

[long.liam]

Disease Cloud shouldn't generate much aggro either way. It's only 1 disease counter spell. Likely a bug that it was generating alot. Other spells like Shadow Vortex, Darkness etc are HP based. The HP of the Mob determines how much Hate the spell generates. Higher HP mobs generate more hate per cast. The formula should be rougly mob HP/15 up to a cap of 1200 for spells and 400 for procs. Have you tested on high HP mobs. Also there are temporary bonuses for being in Melee range, sitting, low HP aggro etc.

[loramin]

Not sure if the evidence is needed here, but here's a couple of classic SK's (well, one's a little slightly post-classic) extolling the virtues of Disease Cloud:

First off always lead with a good taunt spell (Disease at level 9, Darkness at 15 to give your group mates a few extra seconds to get ready), to make the Mob hate you above all else. Now if you are unlucky enough to pull multiple Mobs, disease them and keep on chopping them down, and using your Life Spike and darkness in-between melee rounds.

https://web.archive.org/web/20010911122136/http://eq.castersrealm.com/playguides/VIEW.ASP?ID=3358

Your job in a group is simple, make yourself the single most hated opponent the mob has. Very easy for us, infact we have some spells that help. Disease cloud, level 9 dot, keep it memorized! one cast of this little puppy and a single use of the taunt skill will make you the single most hated enemy a mob has.

https://web.archive.org/web/20010911123241/http://eq.castersrealm.com/playguides/VIEW.ASP?ID=5645

[long.liam]

Not sure if the evidence is needed here, but here's a couple of classic SK's (well, one's a little slightly post-classic) extolling the virtues of Disease Cloud:



https://web.archive.org/web/20010911122136/http://eq.castersrealm.com/playguides/VIEW.ASP?ID=3358



https://web.archive.org/web/20010911123241/http://eq.castersrealm.com/playguides/VIEW.ASP?ID=5645

Those posts are bit vague as to what level Disease cloud is still good. I don't doubt that at low levels, Disease cloud should be sufficient for generating enough hate to hold aggro. At high levels though the hate generated should not be able to keep up with other spells. 1 Disease counter spell should not be able to out aggro a 10 poison counter spell like Envenomed bolt or Bane of Nife or a 9 Disease counter spell like Pox of Bertoxxulous.

[long.liam]

Those posts are bit vague as to what level Disease cloud is still good. I don't doubt that at low levels, Disease cloud should be sufficient for generating enough hate to hold aggro. At high levels though the hate generated should not be able to keep up with other spells. 1 Disease counter spell should not be able to out aggro a 10 poison counter spell like Envenomed bolt or Bane of Nife or a 9 Disease counter spell like Pox of Bertoxxulous.

Also one of those posts seems to mention a old tired myth about how Disease cloud or how any diseased based dots prevent NPCs from regenerating. This was a misconception at the time from people. This makes me doubt the expertise of these individuals that posted this information given that they had wrong information for this, who knows what else they were wrong about.

[choice]

One key first principles of Project 1999 is to re-create what Everquest was during those eras. There is no evidence, at least not posted publicly, that disease cloud would not work at end game content from classic to velious era (my SK is 60). If 1 disease counter drew as much aggro as 9 disease counter, it was what it was. It should be respected and re-created. We should not "fix" it.

There are many things that dont seem right, but SK being able to draw aggro reliably and easily is not.

[long.liam]

One key first principles of Project 1999 is to re-create what Everquest was during those eras. There is no evidence, at least not posted publicly, that disease cloud would not work at end game content from classic to velious era (my SK is 60). If 1 disease counter drew as much aggro as 9 disease counter, it was what it was. It should be respected and re-created. We should not "fix" it.

There are many things that dont seem right, but SK being able to draw aggro reliably and easily is not.

There's no evidence that they should work either. Like I said before, It just a 1 counter disease spell. Unlike, the SPAs: Snare, Darkness, Blind, AC debuff, Slows, stuns etc; No idea why they are called SPAs, Disease cloud is just a diease dot. Dots have a flat set hate level from level 1 to 60. They do not scale based off of mob HP, only the SPAs do that. If disease cloud gives maybe 250 hate at level 9? no Idea what the real values is, then level 60 it still only gives 250 hate. Darkness on the other hand should start at 1 hate all the up to 1200 at level 60.

[San'Drax]

IIRC, DC agro was nerfed pre Luclin. I was maining an SK during that period and much rattling of ICs in scabbards. SK then just started using SV and SoH and all was well (except for Trl and Ogre who have no mana)

[loramin]

Also one of those posts seems to mention a old tired myth about how Disease cloud or how any diseased based dots prevent NPCs from regenerating. This was a misconception at the time from people. This makes me doubt the expertise of these individuals that posted this information given that they had wrong information for this, who knows what else they were wrong about.

You should always doubt the expertise of random commenters (or guide writers) in classic sources: people misunderstood a lot about the game back then.

At the same time however, the quote speaks for itself:

Disease cloud, level 9 dot, keep it memorized! one cast of this little puppy and a single use of the taunt skill will make you the single most hated enemy a mob has. Warriors are likely to be jealous of your superior taunting abilities, you can even outtaunt rangers if you really try. Another good taunt spell is Heart Flutter, which we recieve at 39.

This guy was playing at least to 39 (quite possibly to 60), and for him one cast of Disease Cloud and a single click of taunt held agro. You don't need his expertise, you just need his honesty ... and I could see no reason for a guide writer to lie about something like that.

[Ennewi]

https://everquest.allakhazam.com/db/item.html?item=686

RE: Disease Cloud
Quote
Reply
#Jul 08 2001 at 4:17 PMRating: Decent
__DEL__1592249606794
*
75 posts
The proc is NOT an AOE it its a single target DOT that does 60 damage over 6 minutes. It is a MAJOR Taunt and not good for a rogue.

lol
Quote
Reply
#Feb 12 2002 at 8:46 PMRating: Default
__DEL__1592757930748
*
53 posts
disease cloud is one of the best shadowknight TAUNT spells =D. to see a 50+ rogue actually use this (alhtough at lvl 50 i hope to innoruuk that he has better) would give me the chuckles for months =)

[long.liam]

https://everquest.allakhazam.com/db/item.html?item=686

Still very vague information here. Need hard numbers to justify making any kind of changes. I know that diease cloud was most definitely nerfed at some point when disease counters were removed. This change took place way before the poison counters were removed, circa 2005 era, possibly as early as late velious. I don't have the exact date for that at this point. Would need still need hard numbers for how much hate DC would produced in classic, should be a certain amount per disease counter. My limited information tells me that diease counters were 200 - 250 per counter, but I could wrong. DC should only be about 200 hate for the counter, plus 1 hate per tick for the dmg. If you have hard numbers from an era that is different than this, please post it.

[long.liam]

You should always doubt the expertise of random commenters (or guide writers) in classic sources: people misunderstood a lot about the game back then.

At the same time however, the quote speaks for itself:



This guy was playing at least to 39 (quite possibly to 60), and for him one cast of Disease Cloud and a single click of taunt held agro. You don't need his expertise, you just need his honesty ... and I could see no reason for a guide writer to lie about something like that.

We don't know for certain that the person who wrote this actually played until level 39. It's still quite possible he simply looked up the spells that are available and/or simply heard from higher level SKs that this spell acquired is either another good choice for hate or quite possibly better hate at the level it is acquired.

Either way though, without hard numbers from in era, like a players log files or parse or some type of formal testing someone may have done, we can't really get a good idea of just how much hate this spell should generate. If I have time, and If I care enough, I might spend some time looking for hard to data to either justify my position or possibly a change if that data says otherwise.

[Ennewi]

We don't know for certain that the person who wrote this actually played until level 39. It's still quite possible he simply looked up the spells that are available and/or simply heard from higher level SKs that this spell acquired is either another good choice for hate or quite possibly better hate at the level it is acquired.

If not 39, than close. Disease Cloud being an entry level 9th spell, anything past 20 is still a good amount of experience with tanking to understand what provides the best aggro for mana cost.

RE: Argh By: Anonymous
Posted @ Sat, Apr 21st 10:33 AM 2001 Score: Good[4.33]
Are you an ogre in disguise?

Fool, mana is all that matters to a true shadowknight. If you do not have mana what are you? A pitiable second rate warrior.

Now my young fool, I shall tell you how a true Erudite works. I use a slow weapon with a near 5 second delay. However it has incredible damage potential. I am physically weaker than our larger comrads with only 110 strength. However I have stopped trying to raise it. Why you ask?

It is unimportant. With my slow weapon I can cast between swings, currently I have 128 intelligence, and with my lifetaps I can add over 400 health to myself over the course of a fight while weakening my enemy by that much. Now, I have more health than a stupid troll or ogre, I've done more damage than them as well. I can also heal faster than any troll or iksar could ever dream by lifetapping small greens or from the pulls of other groups.

Do not remain a fool, mana is your only tool. Brute force only matters if you intend to remain a brute.

-Daelin
Xev

https://web.archive.org/web/20010107220000/http://forums.castersrealm.com/eq/Forum3/HTML/001957-5.html

Daelin Shadowtouch
Newbie Poster
Posts: 2
Registered: Oct 2000

posted October 25, 2000 01:26 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Daelin Shadowtouch Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Ainlaina:
a lack of imagination hits YOU for 360 damage!
i have actually spent entire days playing the game without ever even fighting a MOB, much less camping. AND i have thoroughly enjoyed that time. Some things that I do in the game...

-trade skills
-mentoring young (newbie) paladins
-buffing and healing newbies
-exploring (still many zones i have never been to yet)
-explore cities and talk to NPCs
-and that's just for starters...

the game is as fun as YOU want to make it. if you are looking for passive entertainment, go watch TV.

i think the best thing they could do in the next version of EQ is get rid of that little orange exp bar. leveling should be a side benefit of adventuring, not the other way around.

by the way, i have been level 29 for months, and only incidentally reached 30 recently. i was actually quite suprised when i heard the "DING" sound and saw i had gained a level. so i went and bought my new spells, and instead of rushing back to camp to get more experience, i spent the rest of the night casting my new buffs on newbies. i had a GREAT time, and made a lot of new "virtual" friends.

Ainlaina


I have been to every zone that is suvivable below level 30.

I have timed how long it takes to walk from Qeynos to freeport. I've helped newbies, I've soloed, I've grouped, I've fought a griffon at level 29 (not recommended but I did survive).

If you split RPG players into groups I'd fall into the explorer group. The only reason I level is so that I may explore a new zone, new spells, whatever. I've played every race and every class. You know what I've discovered?

Just when the classes start to show some real diversity (meaning when everyone isn't up close and personal doing melee on the mob and nothing else) you start camping.

Oh it's subtle at first, just stay in one area and keep killing things, not nessicarily the same things, but you do as your group wants (especially if you're a wizard because groups are RARE!). Since you're forced to group you're forced to camp.

Thus is the nature of EverQuest.

------------------
Daelin Shadowtouch
Erudite Shadowknight
Soi Disant Gentry
Povar


Either way though, without hard numbers from in era, like a players log files or parse or some type of formal testing someone may have done, we can't really get a good idea of just how much hate this spell should generate. If I have time, and If I care enough, I might spend some time looking for hard to data to either justify my position or possibly a change if that data says otherwise.

https://project1999.com/forums/showthread.php?t=19

#2
Old 09-24-2010, 05:07 PM
Uthgaard Uthgaard is offline
VIP / Contributor

Uthgaard's Avatar

Join Date: Aug 2010
Posts: 5,433
Default
Just a reminder:

While a lot of you have been contributing a lot of bugs recently, which is awesome, we have a high standard of accuracy / evidence. While we don't need a congressional hearing about every bug fix, throwing us a link to something definitive from a waybacked site is the most helpful thing you can do, other than pointing our attention to the bug itself. It helps us make the change with confidence that we're doing the right thing.

Also, search the forums to see if your issue has already been addressed.
Last edited by Uthgaard; 09-24-2010 at 05:11 PM..

#3
Old 10-01-2011, 10:23 AM
nilbog nilbog is offline
Project Manager

nilbog's Avatar

Join Date: Oct 2009
Posts: 14,345
Default
With the new round of beta testing, this is highly relevant.

Please make sure to include all the information you can about an issue.

I'm wasting a lot of time reading posts with no research or links.

Thanks.

[Jimjam]

You should always doubt the expertise of random commenters (or guide writers) in classic sources: people misunderstood a lot about the game back then.

At the same time however, the quote speaks for itself:



This guy was playing at least to 39 (quite possibly to 60), and for him one cast of Disease Cloud and a single click of taunt held agro. You don't need his expertise, you just need his honesty ... and I could see no reason for a guide writer to lie about something like that.

But if he is doing 1 dc and then 2 taunt, it is the taunt putting him at top. Because that is what taunt does. Nothing to do with the dc. Unless dc had a crazy per tick aggro which helped keep aggro after the successful taunt.

[long.liam]

If not 39, than close. Disease Cloud being an entry level 9th spell, anything past 20 is still a good amount of experience with tanking to understand what provides the best aggro for mana cost.



https://web.archive.org/web/20010107220000/http://forums.castersrealm.com/eq/Forum3/HTML/001957-5.html


https://project1999.com/forums/showthread.php?t=19

No Idea why you shared any of this information. None of it is definitive enough to justify making a major change to a spell. I haven't seen anything so far to convince me that the current hate numbers on DC are wrong. It's unlikely any change will occur unless very strong evidence is posted.

If you are implying that DC somehow produced hate differently or somehow more than other DOTs, than this would be a very strong claim. Strong claims require strong evidence.

However, despite all of this, someone still need to provide the numbers or the formula for how DC is supposed to produced, if the hate on it even does somehow work differently than other DoTs.

[Ennewi]

No Idea why you shared any of this information. None of it is definitive enough to justify making a major change to a spell.

The previous post that brought into question the validity of the player's statement, based on their level/experience with the game, quoted below.

We don't know for certain that the person who wrote this actually played until level 39. It's still quite possible he simply looked up the spells that are available and/or simply heard from higher level SKs that this spell acquired is either another good choice for hate or quite possibly better hate at the level it is acquired.

If it's a question of whether the player knew what they were talking about, their other posts seem to suggest that they had a decent understanding of game mechanics.

I haven't seen anything so far to convince me that the current hate numbers on DC are wrong. It's unlikely any change will occur unless very strong evidence is posted.

So far, no one posting here has any say in the matter to need convincing. Please post relevant, in-era information and build on that.

[Kjinn22]

snip.

Well said. We know DC was classically an aggro magnet that eventually got nerfed, p99 devs clearly knew that with the increased aggro it had for over a decade here. It eventually got nerfed on live, with no evidence it was before Luclin. So the question is why make this change now? Hard to say it was even on purpose, as it isn't in the patch notes.

[Ennewi]

Most of the comments below were made roughly a year outside of the classic timeline, but were either in reference to the spell before its nerf (all disease-based spells) or were made before the nerf took place, though there is some question as to whether the nerf was specifically undone at some point to appease the community, even though other spells were added to generate aggro.

The earliest mentions of the nerf can be found in late 2002, with it becoming common knowledge after a post made by Absor arguing against reverting the spell to its previous state.

https://web.archive.org/web/20020313024746/http://everquest.allakhazam.com/db/classes.html?class=5&mid=99679685192181

Possible Solution to SK woes? By: Anonymous
Posted @ Thu, Aug 2nd 8:00 PM 2001 Score: Default[2.00]
The most common complaint I hear from high lvl Sk's is that we don't have a place in high lvl groups and raids. I have a solution.

At lvl 9 we get a nifty little spell called Disease cloud. It's ability is useful when we first get it, but what keeps it in our spell slots is it's taunting ability. I propose that we get an upgrade, with exponentially greater hate. This would make us the undisputed kings of taunting, and earn us a spot in some groups.

Would this be unbalancing? No. We are already very good at taunting, this would just give us the edge in this department. Besides, only in group situations would an Sk want to use this spell, and we have to survive once the mob turns on us. Would this make us more useful in high end groups and raids? Absolutly! We can help give the tanks a breather in an emergency, and can protect our casters. Is this out of line with our character? Not really. We are supposed to be the most loathed and mistrusted class in Norrath, why not make us the masters of generating hate?

What do you guys think? I already passed this idea along to the developers board, lets see where it goes.

RE: Possible Solution to SK woes? Reply... By: DaClifster,
5 posts
Posted @ Fri, Aug 3rd 6:50 PM 2001 Score: Decent[3.00]
Not necessary, if your a high level SK and know how to play your character well, then you would know that out taunting any other class is already easily done. High level SKs have:

Snare series
Dot series
Debuff series
Lifetap series

and then there's good old Disease Cloud (green fart as I call it) to throw more salt in the wound.

If you are using these correctly, then your post would read something like... what am I doing wrong.. the mobs wont get off of me and kill me first. At lvl 54 I can take aggro from a lvl 60 Cleric, Warrior and Wizard.. I'd rethink what your use in battle.. you should be using different spells for group combat than you would be for soloing.


https://web.archive.org/web/20020818223601/http://everquest.allakhazam.com/db/classes.html?class=5&mid=99975148094673

RE: Responce By: Anonymous
Posted @ Thu, Sep 6th 12:44 AM 2001 Score: Default[2.00]
All I know is i've saved many group members with two things Harm Touch and Disease Cloud. Harm Touch when a groupie is gonna die if theres no other way. And Disease Cloud to get things off of over zealous wizzys who like to pull while people are medding healing. These may not work in higker levels but they work great up until at least leavel 24.

RE: Responce Reply... By: Anonymous
Posted @ Mon, Sep 10th 11:02 AM 2001 Score: Decent[3.33]
If you are looking for Taunting, there is nothing better than a SK. Some of you may laugh, but the above post hits on one of hte most useful spells in the game for a sk, the little old level 1 necro spell, disease cloud. This is by far, the best taunt in the game. If you are in a group, beating on a mob, and want to keep aggro, just keep dropping disease clouds on them in between swings. It will cast between swings, so no loss there, and only costs a very very very minimal amount of mana. This will keep a mob off all but the most zelous overcasters.

Twotone Twoeyes 43 Ogre Holy Knight of Rallos Zek
Head Bouncer of Soulbonded
Drinal Server


https://web.archive.org/web/20040916050329/http://everquest.allakhazam.com/db/classes.html?class=5&mid=10213071594711&num=4&page=

The Death of Disease Cloud
Posted @ Mon, May 13th 12:34 PM2002 | IP: Logged | Reply... Reply to this | User's Journal | Email User
By: Sir Parttime
Guru

145 posts
Score: Excellent [5.00]

Add to address book Add to address book

I haven't seen it mentioned on this board, so I thought I would bring it up for discussion. It is a complicated issue, so please forgive me if I get a few of the details wrong. However, here is the heart of the issue.

Recently, many spells that reduced speed were changed to be "disease" based. On the surface, this was good idea, especially since cure disease suddenly became available (at level 22 I think) to we Shadowknights. Meaning we could get rid of a spell that slowed us down without have to wait out the duration of the spell.

However, shamans, who have a responsiblity to slow down MOBs suddenly found themselves getting the holy crumbs kicked out of them everytime they cast a "slow" spell. It seemed that Mobs really hate disease counters. The developers at Verant, figuring that the death of a shaman, everytime they cast slow, was a bad thing, decided to SIGNIFICANTLY reduce the amount of aggro a disease counter generates. Yahhhhhh..the shammies live to slow another day, but here comes the downside to this little story.

Shadowknights, who have played in a group, know that the very best spell for taunting an angery Mob off a magic user is a 9th level spell called Disease Cloud. It is quick...it has low mana usage...it did not take up a buff slot and it is very very effective in taunting. The only downside was the fact that it was a DoT, so mezzing a Mob after casting Disease cloud on it was not possible. However, as the name implies, it is disease based and now after the series of changes previously spoken of...it is completely ineffective.

There are other spells that will do the job, but most are either difficult to land (darkness), have a long casting time, are mana intensive, use a buff slot that is overridden by an other common buff or are a combination of those. (I'm using Heart Flutter as a substitute at the moment.)

I have never complained (until now) about our role in the EQ world. We are Shadowknights and we do not whine. We are not the best tanks, damage dealers or pullers. We do all those things well, but not as well as some other classes. We where, until this nerf, the best class at getting and keeping aggro. We can still do the job pretty well, but with the neutering of this one spell that job has become much harder.

I guess who I really feel for is that 18th level wisard who groups with a 20th level Shadowknight thinking that the crocs in Oasis will be thinking about the Knight and not him. Those days are over, unless someone in development figures out that we need a spell that again has the characterists of this very useful spell.

Will I stop playing my SK over this? I doubt it. But it will make me a lot more nervous everytime a wisard or cleric casts a spell.

Good luck and good hunting in the land of Norrath.


----------------------------
Shrikke - Knight of Fear
Bristlebane

Posted @ Wed, May 15th 5:15 PM2002 | IP: Logged | Reply... Reply to this
By: lunaticfringesk
Scholar

389 posts
Score: Decent [2.75]

Add to address book Add to address book

Based on my personal experience, I can confirm that Disease Cloud ("DC") has lost QUITE a bit of agro capability, which basically SOOKS.

I found myself un-memming it in SEBILIS, which, to be honest, does not make me happy. I found that the "pre"-DC is too quick & too cheap to not mem IF agro is something that you want to obtain. Now, it is next to worthless--SHAME ON VERANT.

All I can do is shake my head. With the exception of certain casters (whether sitting or casting a bomb, etc), SKs were the best agro characters bar noone (I found that PLDs could come close, but definitely not as good). Im not so sure about that claim anymore. I constantly find myself casting everything I have at the MOB (Heart Flutter, Shadow Vortex, darkness spell) just to get/maintain agro and NONE of those are even in the ballpark of DC is terms of casting time & mana.

Further, I frequently find myself LOSING agro, something that has NEVER (materially) happened to me before....

At the end of the day, SKs have been WEAKENED...

=(

Lunatic

Posted @ Mon, Jul 15th 5:36 PM2002 | IP: Logged | Reply... Reply to this | User's Journal
By: maladildarkheart

120 posts
Score: Decent [2.79]

Add to address book Add to address book

lol bro i feel your pain. i to even to this feel very nervious whenever a wizzy or cleric cast.
even though at lvl 51 now i still use dease cloud when mana is low but the spell doen't work like it us too anymore this has me worried to


https://web.archive.org/web/20040126091414/http://www.thesteelwarrior.org/forum/showthread.php?s=&forumid=15&threadid=4498

Bloodravenger
knows that Warriors are superior

Post #6
Registered: Nov 2003
Posts: 1

Server:
Guild:


Heh on demand aggro would be like Diesiese Cloud for Sk's back in the day when no matter where the mob was at, an Sk could cast that and mob would go running to him.

Pallies just use stun, then walk up and commence Melee attack, It does rather well on Inc since hate list is not a mess at the time, but clearly person fitting a mob for a length will stop him from being able to rip off the mob from him and pally would be forced to move and restun and taunt to get aggro...

Same is with CD and fear, but fear has chance to fear the mob..

-------

If stun fails to land it sometimes can not take aggro hold whereas CD does still gain aggro when resisted. Some times it will seem as CD will not get aggro hold on resist or even if not resisted this only means puller meleed mob a tad and i have to move to mob to get better aggro off.

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

Old Post 11-21-2003 06:48 PM


https://web.archive.org/web/20050914052422/http://forums.shadowknight.org/showthread.php?s=&threadid=1544

Lord Vedar
Member
Registered: Apr 2002
Location:
Posts: 52


Damn I was wondering why DC was not taunting as it used to. I was in HS and chain casting DC with little effect. THIS IS WAY MESSED UP. DC was FAST Low Mana and HUGE taunt, now it may look like we need to cast slower more mana eatting spells.

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

Old Post 05-10-2002 12:47 PM



https://web.archive.org/web/20051112025125/http://www.shadowknight.org/forums/archive/index.php/t-9086.html

Dalantia
12-09-2002, 02:53 AM
How does a younger SK pull taunt?

The people I generally group with as Aurie are a 17 Monk, 19 Druid, and her. I can't keep aggro off the monk without her FDing. Aurie has been shown to take damage better than Kal, so how do I avoid this?

My primary ideas were to cast Disease Cloud and Darkness right away, followed by ATK debuffs (Yes, my pansy L9 and 15 spells :p), then just firing away with Lifetap, punching Bash and Taunt. For weaponry, I have a Crystallized Blade, a MoSS, and a Stalagterror spear (Fear those of us who are too stubborn to sit in the bazaar or vendor things..). I can get a Throneblade Yak off of another character for her, but that doesn't get useful until 20. :p

Suggestions, comments, or am I going to be shot as a paladin posting on a shadowknight board? :p

synnoira
12-09-2002, 08:15 AM
ATK taps/debuffs have next to no taunt value. Lifetaps are low value too. Disease Cloud had it's aggro castrated ages ago. Stick to Clinging Darkness. Use it early and repeat a couple of times as necessary.
It sounds like you are using an awful lot of mana per fight, cast the ATK tap once only when it fades, cast lifetaps only when you're getting into the bottom end of the red bar and the cleric is low.


https://web.archive.org/web/20031121014111/http://everquest.allakhazam.com/db/item.html?item=1208&start=0

This item is just a bad bad idea Reply...
Posted @ Wed, Apr 17th 7:46 AM 2002
By: Relios
Scholar
158 posts
Score: Default [2.00]
Like the subject says. As an SK, disease cloud is one of the bread and butter spells that I use to hold aggro OFF of the healers. It works much better than the Taunt skill in alot of cases. While I suppose that there is a time and a place for anything and everything, I just can't think of a good time for the healer to be casting Disease Cloud. Ever. It is always cool to have items with novel effects like this one, it's just not cool to actually use them. Unless you want to die.


Merrilon Bladesinger
65 Bard - Druzzil

RE: This item is just a bad bad idea Reply...
Posted @ Sun, Jun 30th 6:07 PM 2002
By: Relios
Scholar
158 posts
Score: Default [2.00]
Did you even read the title and content of my message? I didn't say it was a bad item, I said it was a bad IDEA. I went on further to express that the item itself is cool, but using it in most every case in a group ISN'T cool, since dead clerics can't heal tanks very well.

I also said that I have personal liking for unique "toy" items like this and most other cleric neck items like it. So no, I'm not fearful, close-minded, stats-blinded or dull. Additionally, there was a definite under-tone of sarcasm to the whole post, which was mostly just a joke post meant to make people (especially newbies) think a bit. If you didn't catch it, YOU may be the dull one. Sorry.

BTW, Disease Cloud now pretty much sucks as an aggro tool. When they made changes slow spells awhile back, they tinkered around with how disease based effects aggro mobs. End result? Disease Cloud is no longer the bread and butter taunting spell it once was. We SKs of the world cringed, but life goes on. But it also means that it is safer to use now for people besides SKs, but it's still not a real good idea. Not for the faint of heart at least. Anyway, have fun you evil Clerics.

Also BTW, using it as a Bertox Blessing is a really neat idea. Good job!


Merrilon Bladesinger
65 Bard - Druzzil

1 Replies
RE: This item is just a bad bad idea Reply...
Posted @ Mon, Jul 8th 11:30 AM 2002
By: Darknyss
Scholar
426 posts
Score: Default [2.00]
sorry buddy, but they took the disease aggro away from slow spells... as slow drew enough attention as it was... disease cloud is STILL an incredible taunt, and not to mention enchanters can't mezz you if you cast it upon yourself


Darknyss Grimscale
55 Iksar ShadowKnight, weilder of Greenmist
Xorbnastralicus Magusmezzmasticus
35 High Elven Enchanter

1 Replies
RE: This item is just a bad bad idea Reply...
Posted @ Mon, Jan 6th 7:36 AM 2003
By: The Honorable Relios
Scholar
158 posts
Score: Default [2.10]
Sorry friend, but I guess you didn't pay attention. Disease Cloud WAS nerfed. Hell, Absor even made a post about it on the SK boards when they went NUTS about it. It just doesn't draw aggro like it used to. Hence the addition of the aggro nukes and Voice line.


Merrilon Bladesinger
65 Bard - Druzzil

https://web.archive.org/web/20051217003633/http://www.shadowknight.org/forums/archive/index.php/t-263.html

Graznoth
03-31-2002, 05:52 AM
Disease Cloud's all you should need, casting it once at the begin of the fight and then just using taunt is generally enough, recast if you lose agro, works like a charm.

Nephtu
03-31-2002, 12:26 PM
Shadow Vortex is 39, as are Shroud of Hate and Heart flutter, another couple of nice aggro spells. The nice thing about SV/SoH is that they give you a solid demezz spell lineup that doesn't involve a DoT. However from level 9 on through 60, your prime aggro spell in so many situations will be Disease Cloud - the gift that keeps on giving :)

darkmelusine
03-31-2002, 01:26 PM
SoH in my experience isn't a lot of taunt, especially compared to say darkness, disease cloud, vortex. Even SoP is higher taunt I think. Flutter/Asystole cast times are too long to be effective for me.

Byttorr Ebonknight
03-31-2002, 02:33 PM
The mez-breaking lineup I use is taunt/Shadow Vortex/taunt/Darkness/taunt and then bash or Disease Cloud to actually break the mez. (When time is of the essence, SV/taunt/DC usually does the trick, but it's not 100%) The reason you can throw a Darkness in along the way is that it takes about 5 seconds before the DOT component kicks in.

Brega
03-31-2002, 10:55 PM
An SK never needs more than Disease Cloud and Vortex Shadow to effectively taunt. You have to be careful with these spells as a matter of fact, and never use them on big mobs that your Warriors are tanking.

Shroud of Pain also works well, but no better than the above two.

synnoira
04-01-2002, 11:38 AM
scream of pain doesn't have much of a taunt to it that i can see, i experimented a bit after i got it
at level 30 anyways disease cloud followed by clinging darkness is your best combo
at 39 I put shadow vortex in ahead of those two, as people have said it's a big taunt which won't make the mob unmezzable
i find opening with SV followed by DC makes mobs stick to me most of the time
i throw on Shroud of Pain third now at 50 and then clinging darkness fourth, though that's only necessary if i'm dealing with casters who have some aggro management problems


https://web.archive.org/web/20051102055653/http://www.shadowknight.org/forums/archive/index.php/t-1298.html

Paynreaver
05-02-2002, 11:39 PM
Its really basic at lvl 18: Fund a mob, pull it. Dont let him kill anyone else in the group. Thats how to be a good shadowknight. Wanna be a GREAT knight? Be willing to DIE, yes DIE for your group. Overpull 10 mobs? Suck up the death and scream at your group to hightail it outa there while you buy them some time. At lvl 23 a warrior did that for my group, i thought he was the greates. We are friends and still group to today.

(Note: Thats just one way to go a little above, theres tons more)

Also, if you need to taunt off a groupmate (taunt meaning get a mob [mob = monster] off a weaker groupmate) use Desease cloud. This gem of a spell REALLY makes the mob angry, so they will attack you. If all else fails, put on a harmtouch too, but only in an emergency because its only available every 90 mins.


Good luck!

DarkWyld
05-07-2002, 12:18 PM
Scream of Hate is an ATK tap. This does not generate alot of hate from the mob. The AC tap line works wonders, though. So your primary aggro generating spells are:

Disease Cloud
AC Tap (Shadow Vortex, Shroud of Pain)
Darkness line
Flutter line (Heart Flutter, Asystole)

From my experience, these are listed in order of Hate generated from most to least. I think there is a Scream of Pain in the AC tap line as well, but since I was high level when SoL came out, I haven't looked into them. Overall, though, DC is the best aggro management tool we have - fast cast, low cost, and large aggro.

As for getting spells in Luclin, this should be no problem. Shadow Haven is non-KOS to everyone. Getting into Echo is fairly easy, and the merchants are close to the Shadow Haven zone - away from the creatures within.

Sekhmeth
05-08-2002, 04:40 AM
Casting Disease cloud again will only serve to get you more aggro, it doesnt stack with itself, you just reset the time on the dot.

Oh and your english is very good! :)


https://web.archive.org/web/20040622152739/http://thedruidsgrove.org/forums/showthread.php?t=8105

Old 06-08-2004, 12:37 AM #3
elty
Learning the ways

Join Date: Feb 2004
Posts: 58
the so called "nerf" they did to SK is they made it so that disease and poison counter would not generate a HUGE amount of hate to save the poor slower who get splat by the mob after they slow it. (They add disease counter on slow so it is easier to cure) SK whine and whine and whine because hey cannot use disease cloud (which is a lv 1 spell for god sake) to hold aggro anymore. Anyways at the end SOE just gave SK a whole new line of spell (Aggro multiplier AND instant hate spell) in a week or 2. And look how long it takes to fix the warrior aggro issue?

Ok maybe i exagrate a little bit, but i definitely rememeber at least some SK whine a lot about their lv 1 dot cant hold any aggro. However all the enc is glad that tash is not tashicide anymore.

SK i play with generally use darkness to hold aggro. Rarely I see pally still use lv 9/15 stun tho.

i am not sure why thsi fix is necessary. If you don't want to get aggro are you sure you will still cast the same spell again for the 2nd time if it is immune and you get kileed after the first? I guess ppl learn this very fast. Many spell and proc is good to hold aggro even tho the effect is immuned as the up stair said.


https://web.archive.org/web/20031024051050/http://everquest.allakhazam.com/db/classes.html?class=5&mid=102163974524105

RE: The Death of Disease Cloud Reply...
Posted @ Fri, May 17th 8:58 AM 2002
By: Kamlatir, Eater of Souls
Scholar
66 posts
Score: Decent [3.20]
It's not about "changing your tactics a bit" Neptunis. I'm sorry to have to drag this up over and over again but there is no (!) sk spell equivalent to the old Disease Cloud at the moment. One of my greatest advantages as a tank when fighting with my regular group deep in the Hole or Chardok was that I could break a mezzed and slowed mob with the chanter sitting down and I'd still have aggro. I'd do my little "routine" as my group mates called it, Taunt, Shadow Vortex, Disease Cloud. The time consumed in this routine is minimal, next to none. I can taunt and mez break still but to achieve the same effect we are talking double if not triple the time from before. Is this a large issue? Yes, it is.

The two zones I mentioned have a fast spawn rate and minimizing the time every kill takes is important. Imagine yourself fighting to a camp, this is usually a very mana intensive process. Now imagine "doing" a zone, fighting from the entrance of The Hole and down to Kindle/High Scale Kirn with one group, without pausing or medding. Not having a shaman in the group set up the chanter is also responsible for slows. My chanter has C3 and still tells me to taunt so he can sit and med down in Chardok. Maybe this doesn't apply to just sitting at a camp and killing a set number of spawns but if you want to swing down and take out Prince you need to be on the move constantly or back pops will get you. The advantage of having an sk tank was that your group speeds up it's kill rate greatly, due to fast mez breaks and damage dealers not having to be so careful of their aggro, and in my opinion this was somewhat effected by the change of disease aggro.

I don't believe in the word "nerf" since a fix is a fix and obviously intended. However, I do think that this is an unforseen side effect that VI didn't really think of. Life goes on though, I will /feedback this and it will probably still stay the same. There's not much one can do, I feel somewhat entitled to at least come here and give my opinion of why this was bad for the sk class.

As for Torrent of Hate having any taunt value, I think it may be on account of the zone you are in. Different mobs in different zones react differently to spells. I wont say that was the case in Tenebrous since I've never fought there myself but if you thought Torrents gave aggro you should perhaps try with some of the other spells known for their hate creating factor. Try going into CoM and stand in the pull path, no matter what the puller has done to the mob that's incoming (excepting Shadow Vortex) that mob is going to aggro on the very first thing in it's way, not follow the puller to the group. The mobs in Velketors Lab are very insensitive to spells, they simply don't give the aggro they do in Seb. Chanters usually love Velks on account of the low aggro their mezzing and slowing pulls. I think as a rule of thumb you could say that if a low aggro spell like Torrent of Hate is giving you aggro then a spell like Shadow Vortex or Disease Cloud (pre fix patch) will glue the mob to you. I base my no aggro statement on Torrent of Hate on the mobs in Arena. Just like I said, standing in camp I cast Torrent of Hate on incoming mobs that had just been tagged with an arrow or proximity aggroed and they never even looked my way. Shadow Vortex and Disease Cloud had the opposite effect though. From this I deduct that ToH is lower aggro then the two others. Even Shroud of Pain pulled aggro so ToH must be lower aggro then that too. I base it on being able to actually cast the spell on many raids where other Shrouds etc pull immediate aggro if cast early in a fight. Basically, read my other post as to what I think VI is trying to achieve with for instance ToH.

Edited, Fri May 17 08:54:03 2002

RE: The Death of Disease Cloud Reply...
Posted @ Fri, May 17th 9:54 AM 2002
By: Neptunis
Scholar
278 posts
Score: Decent [3.15]
Ok first I said "SHROUD OF PAIN" Not "Torrent of Hate", your're right Torrent of Hate doesn't have a big agro, unless it's stacked with the others, then it seems to have an improved value (or that's just a factor of the number of casts you've done on the MOB).

Now I have fought into the Hole to do the Shaman Quest MOBs with a single group, yes it's tough, yes you have to break for mana sometimes, BUT, my Chanters are always sitting through the fights, when I break mez the MOB has 2 debuffs on it and I'm taunting, the Chanter never gets hit. I NEVER used disease Cloud to help break mez before, Chanter + DoT = BAD, so I have relied on debuffs in Chanter groups for about 15 levels now. I have also fought into Royals in Chardok, held camps in Seb, Chardok, Velks (including Frenze which seems to be the fastest action of any Camp there on my Server) and Main Tanked in the Arena and Reavers in CoM. So YES, I know those camps and zones, and I know how agro differs. But I was giving a REAL example of a post patch success, and no the MOBs in Ten. Mnts. will run past you if not taunted, the Beastlord for our group kept getting in front of me but never gt agro'd on the way past.

Shadow Vortex and Heart Flutter ARE every bit as big taunting spells as Disease Cloud was, they are just slower and more mana. I have been told on Raids prior to this not to use either spell because the Main Tank can't hold agro when I cast them. Either of these spells will bring the instant agro you need to protect a Caster.

I don't know what to account our so very different experience with keeping agro, except that I tried not to use disease cloud all along and found other taunting spells that worked as well or better for me depending on the zone. For example, Heart Flutter in Sireen's Grotto would cause so much agro that I was forced to FD to let the Warrior get agro back, Shadow Vortex in the same zone was much lower agro. In Seb I've found Shadow Vortex to be the superior Taunt. Giants absolutely hate Boil Blood, but inside Kael Arena Darkness seems to be the best taunt. I have even found MOBs that hate lifetaps more than almost anything. But as a rule, once you stack the debuffs on a mezzed MOB the Chanter should be safe, unless he's sitting right next to the MOB when mez breaks.

YES you need more mana to keep agro now, but I still go OOM last in a group.

Neptunis Rex


Neptunis Rex
lvl 62 DE Gravelord
Have Axe, will travel

1 Replies
RE: The Death of Disease Cloud Reply...
Posted @ Fri, May 17th 2:05 PM 2002
By: lunaticfringesk
Scholar
311 posts
Score: Decent [2.75]
At the end of the day, SK taunting has been reduced. It isnt just that Disease Cloud lost some of its taunting ability; Heart Flutter did also. Those are two of the best taunting spells that SKs get, but they have definitely lost some of their umph due to disease counters causing less agro. Im not sure what your thoughts are, but I think that sooks.

Pretty much the sole reason we are casting these spells is for taunt ability (there are rare exceptions, but generally at 50+, you arent casting these for their primary effects) & spending 4 times the mana (Shadown Vortex) for (generally) the same effect basically sooks. Further, the number of spells that cause a ton of agro has just been drastically reduced. =(

I think Verant generally does a decent job of thinking matters through (despite alarming silliness at times), but reducing an SKs ability to taunt is an interesting adjustment to say the least. Did they intentionally do this? Im not sure, but I can say that SKs as a whole are weaker, regardless of whether you change strategies or not. And in case you haven't noticed, SKs generally arent the 1st class picked when many are forming their "dream" groups....

On an (marginally) unrelated note, DoTs with chanters are perfectly fine---you just have to be careful. I DoT all the time in Sebilis or Chardok & there has seldom been, if ever, any problem. The primary trick is to do 2 things: 1) wait until MT starts clobbering a MOB (that you are /assisting if you are not the MT) and 2) let the group know that the mob is DoTed. That's it. Seldom will you ever have a problem. Boil Blood is a decent spell & I use it all the time.

=)

Lunatic


https://web.archive.org/web/20051125191407/http://forums.interealms.com/shaman/showthread.php?threadid=1100

04-26-2002, 01:08 AM
Post #15
Zorlac Sabboth
Luminary

Joined: Dec 1999
Location: Somewhere from the cold north.
Quote:
Originally posted by dirtybax
If resisted then no disease counters are added and no extra aggro is generated. At least it seems that way for me.

~Bax
- Why is a level 9 SK spell (Disease cloud) one of the best taunts in the game? Even if it's resisted (no counters added)?

04-26-2002, 04:13 PM
Post #23
Cragael
Disciple

Joined: Nov 1999
Slow aggro is somewhat down, in my opinion. Mind you, I am still the life of the party as far as a summoning MOB is concerned. Practically assured I will still benefit from having my name called and the cool translocate that goes with it when slow lands *grin*

But I notice it easily when slowing mez'd MOBs. Right before the patch, they used to make a bee line for me. Enchanters loved it by the way Since the patch, the robes are slowly getting shreded again when mez breaks unless I add a little Cripple for extra love

Disease Cloud is such a taunt because level 50+ MOBs really find it offensive to be tagged with a lowbie spell such as it.

Nah.... just kidding. Disease cloud puts in ONE disease counter (same as sicken), that's it. There is no special aggro code for it. The SK that are good at pulling aggro off with it usually manage it because they're doing their job well with a BUNCH of stuff, not just from casting disease cloud. It's a tool among many for them.

The real attention grabbers are still rate reduction spells, both attack (slows) and movement (snare).

04-26-2002, 04:40 PM
Disease cloud Post #24
SnowwSilverhammer
Luminary

Joined: May 2001
Location: On the Permafrost. Listening to the growls of Brother bear and sister wolf
Disease cloud is one of the best taunts in the game for a simple reason.

When they Nerfed the crap out of the disease spells back at the beginning of the game they forgot about disease cloud.

Remember The disease based spells used to last for like 20 minutes or more. Doing steady damage for long long times.

Look at the duration of disease cloud. 6 minutes. It was never fixed.

That is why it is one of the best taunts in the game. Now hush don't talk about it any more.

That is also where the rumour comes from about Disease based spells nullifying regen. I have never tested it but I belive it does take away natural based regen. (Yes it is speculation, no I don't know it for fact, yes I will test it soon. Please note Natural based regen. Not item based, not spell based)

It and the level 1 Necro spell of the same name are the only remaining true disease based spells in the game. The ones we have that were nerfed into oblivion are not even close to the old ones.


Snoww Silverhammer Bashy bear Emarr

04-27-2002, 04:59 PM
Post #29
Boinshar
Prophet of War

Joined: Jan 2000
Location: Springfield Va USA
Desease does absolutly jack against natural regen. That is why people still naturally regen when they get "strong desease" in hate. Test this yourself by casting Sicken on yourself, it does maybe 2 damage a tick, as long as your normal regen is higher than 2, you will get natural regen - 2 as your adjusted regen rate.

DoTs, including desease DoTs, counter regen by doing damage, not by any other means. If a mob regens 90 hps a tick, and you land Pox on it, it won't apear to regen anymore. The rumor, myth, or speculation involving desease dots cancelling regen is yet another case of people trying to apply their "logic" to the EQ spell system.

Desease cloud has such a high taunt because of two reasons. First, it has multiple components, DD, DoT, Add Desease Counter. Second, adding poison/desease counters are among the highest agro generating components (Tish line, Insidious decay, Plague O Insects are prime examples). Chain cast Insidious Decay on something, you will see, and it's only got 2 components.

I haven't really had too much problems with resisted Turgurs in NToV, haven't really done much else though.

__________________
Boinshar Harlishambar


https://web.archive.org/web/20050909013025/http://www.shadowknight.org/forums/archive/index.php/t-18813.html

senor sperro
12-09-2003, 09:44 PM
back in the day i used to use disease cloud as my main agro getter.. cast that a few times on a mob and agro was mine, but clinging darkness still gets agro even if a mob is snared and the spell does not hold. its is the greatest agro spell an sk will get and can get agro no matter what...

use clinging darkness anyways sinuu


https://web.archive.org/web/20030606221543/http://forums.shadowknight.org/showthread.php?s=&threadid=1544&perpage=15&pagenumber=3

Klang
Member
Registered: Apr 2002


If you haven't already, go to the EQ Development forum
and complain that you want Disease Cloud restored to it's prior
taunt capability. Just this one issue (forget all our other problems
for the time being). Maybe if we bang on the cages loud enough
the jailer will bring us some bread and water, eh?

Klang, 55 SK

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

Old Post 05-10-2002 04:56 PM


Zhug
Member
Registered: Mar 2002


Fighting our way to creator last night I decided to test this "nerf".

DC'd one snake < 60, he turned on me.
DC'd one big snake = 60, he turned on me
DC'd one golem = 60, he turned on me.

I had no problem grabbing agro when I wanted to /shrug

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

Old Post 05-10-2002 05:38 PM

Groobash
This board still sux.
Registered: Mar 2002


During a Kael arena raid last night, DC provided very little (if any) agro.

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

Old Post 05-10-2002 05:47 PM

VilleCretur Hatebound
Member
Registered: Mar 2002


I noticed this a bit on Wednesday night hunting brutes in Warsilk Woods with a partner, was wondering what was going on. Sure hope they fix it soon.

__________________
Villecretur Hatebound : 30 DE SK



Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

Old Post 05-10-2002 06:11 PM

Zemi
Member
Registered: Apr 2002


The worst thing is not the fact that DC wont taunt for upper level SKs, it's the fact that pre 39 SKs will have few options.

DC is not a spell I use a whole lot anymore, but it still sits on page 1, for the times I really need agro.

__________________
Lords of Da Ogre Dance

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

Old Post 05-10-2002 06:16 PM

Chania
Revenant
Registered: Mar 2002


I predicted this nerf a long time ago. The aggro that DC had was not by any VI design, but by their ignorance. I'm sure no one at VI designed or foresaw a 60 SK using a level 1 necro spell as a staple spell.

I knew that sometime in the future, a change would be made that would negate this level 1 spell's usefulness. We say that SK's are the kings of taunt, well, that was never in VI's grand scheme of things, it was primarily a by product of a few spells, and in DC's case, unintended. You can't tell me that the programmers sat together and said, "Hey, lets make SK's kings of taunt, we'll give em a spell at level 9 that they can use their entire life as a great taunt! Yeah, lets do that!"

Don't get me wrong, it sucks hardcore. They take away a major part of our arsenal, and the best part is, they didn't even know about it. Question is, do they care?

__________________

Chania Thanatos
Dread Lord of Rodcet Nife
"Fear now, Snare later"

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

Old Post 05-10-2002 06:19 PM

CanizMortem
Member
Registered: Mar 2002


No, they don't seem to care. Verant seems like a rudderless ship in a sea of apathy. The Vision has been dead for a longtime. That's good and bad, lately very bad.

__________________

Caniz Mortem
Iksar SK, E'ci
56.40 Revenant (retired)
"Live long and wither"

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

Old Post 05-10-2002 06:33 PM

Mystina
Dread Lord
Registered: Mar 2002


I don't think VI intentionally "nerfed" DC, they just wanted to lower slow spells aggro, and "Huh sks? Bah lets do this now and we'll see later about em.".

Fixing DC and Asystole aggro would be very easy I believe, they'll prolly do it soon.
If they don't I require massive upgrade to compensate this.

__________________

Remove the f****ing level cap on fear!

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

Old Post 05-10-2002 06:47 PM

synnoira
Mwahahaha
Registered: Mar 2002


is /feedback this morning as good as posting at dev's corner or comes to samething?
never actually felt a real need to complain before but i logged in and did the /feedback thing first thing before going out
i agree i don't think this was an intentional nerf but the ignorance involved of sk's is pretty staggering

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

Old Post 05-10-2002 07:09 PM


Community members quoting/replying to the comment made by Absor...

AbsorEQ
Community Relations Manager
Registered: May 2002


Let's talk about this.

Disease Cloud is a 9th level spell. I think it's pretty odd that any change to a 9th level spell would/should be important to 50+ level SKs.

This, to me, indicates that there's something wrong. A 9th level spell probably shouldn't be so useful that it's a problem for such high level characters.

There are other, better and higher level spells that you can use to taunt. Yes, they cost more mana. But, if you look at this from the perspective of the game at large, what real sense does it make that high level SKs are using a low level spell?

I'm just not convinced that this needs to be changed.

Alan

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

Old Post 05-10-2002 07:35 PM

Leyrin
Reaver
Registered: Mar 2002


Alan,

DC is 1.5 second cast.
Low Mana. Etc etc. and above all, the best aggro in game.

Tell me wich spell you want us to use, and it must be at most a 1.5 second spell too.
Edit (yes i hate to edit my post):
Theres about above 100-150 post in this message board talking about it. Most of the SK agree that 2 spells are above any other to aggro. DC being one. there is reasons. After playing a SK for 3 years, 60hours a week, every SK agree on those 2 spells!!! There is no other spell than those 2.

I give you a question back. Why you put the most usefull spell of ShadowKnight, a level 9 spell. Maybe some work to HighLevel SK spell may be needed?

__________________
Leyrin Dechausseur
Troll Grave Lord
Town$hip Rebellion
r-e-t-i-r-e-d

Last edited by Leyrin on 05-10-2002 at 07:51 PM

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

Old Post 05-10-2002 07:43 PM

Fezzika
Reaver
Registered: Mar 2002


The issue here is that DC was a major tool for SK's, something that made SK's extremely valuable in exp groups to contain aggro off enchanters/clerics/nukers, etc. That spell was widely regarded as the best aggro spell in the game, and was something that made SK's valuable.

Now it has been altered and is no longer effective. Whether this was done accidentally or intentionally, the SK class should receive something that is the equivalent to DC to be used for the same purpose. Keep in mind this is just to allow SK's to remain AS USEFUL in groups, not increase in our usefulness.

And I certainly agree with the above poster...if one of the best spell we had was a level 9 spell, perhaps a good examination of the spells is in order.

__________________


Fezzika Dworfbashur
Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

Old Post 05-10-2002 07:49 PM

Azzikai Shuruga
Member
Registered: May 2002


A few questions, Alan:

If you knew that this side effect was going to occur why wasn't the SK community made aware of the change?

For that matter, if this side effect to all disease based dots (Shaman and Necros included) as well as the disease based Shaman slow Plague of Insects was intented, why wasn't it announced?

I can see why you don't like a level 9 spell being important but this "fix" has changed all disease based spells, including the one it would appear you'd rather have SK's use: Level 60 Asystole.

__________________
~ Azzikai, Luminary

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

Old Post 05-10-2002 07:51 PM

[Ennewi]

https://web.archive.org/web/20010727014014/http://forums.castersrealm.com/cgi-bin/eq/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=112&t=000920

Thulsa Soulstalker
Veteran Poster
Member # 4965
Rate Member

posted July 10, 2001 09:01 AM Profile for Thulsa Soulstalker Author's Homepage Send New Private Message Edit/Delete Post Reply With Quote
I see your lvl 13, so use disease cloud to help taunt, casts fast, low mana, high aggro :-)
--------------------

Thulsa Soulstalker
Pover Server

Posts: 39 | IP: Logged
Noxium
Newbie Poster
Member # 4096
Rate Member

posted July 10, 2001 11:33 AM Profile for Noxium Author's Homepage Send New Private Message Edit/Delete Post Reply With Quote
From what i've seen in two years of playing:
'Taunt' if it works takes you to the top of the agro list, though at high levels the mob will very quickly turn its attention back to the caster unless you do something about it.

For maximum tauntage I have so far found is to press taunt, then immediately bash, then immediately start casting either shadow vortex or disease cloud. Us DC if the area you are fighting in will not get you adds that cannot be mezzed, or are fighting an oponent that cannot be mezzed. Otherwise use shadow vortex - its nearly as good.

Noxium

Posts: 29 | IP: Logged


https://web.archive.org/web/20050826131537/http://www.shadowknight.org/forums/showthread.php?t=16774

09-17-2003, 04:48 PM #10
Fehl
Member

Join Date: Aug 2003
Default
Black

Use your begging Macro in conjunction with your taunt. It does add aggro (dont believe me just go beg from a npc and wait till he smacks you).

Bashing from rear stuns more often = pissed off mob.

Proximity to mob plays a small part in aggro. If you and a Pally are at the same number of hate but your closer guess who gets the prize!

Keep Begging and Taunting when you solo...ding 13 now taunt and beg till you get the next 5 additional points for those skills.

Aggro gaining spells at 14 disease cloud (9)used to piss em off like no tomorrow, I think it was nerfed a little though. 15 will bring you CD a spell you will use to gain aggro in your Reaver levels for that alone! Mobs hate the darkness line! Resisted Fear gets their attention as well, assuming your tanking a mob and your group is frantically healing you (High Con) and you spells are getting resisted anyways.

As puller (if it isnt you) calls incoming fire one arrow at it to establish yourself on the mobs aggro list as close to the top as you can. Their is some mad logic behind this one but from a player who doesnt devote every day of the week to the game it does seem to help me when Im the "Chanter/Cleric help Im gettin a beat down tank!"

Max all your skills you can, Weapon and Spell skills. Find a spell that is most mana efficent to recast over and over to get that skill up, but you play a mage so you probably already are all to familiar with the reson why for that.

Dont be like Reaver StihlBohrn and run around looking for mobs to bring your peircing from 5 to 200+, tust me its not fun!

As ou get more powrfull your next questin will be how is it that I cant keep from gaining aggro?

Hope this helps!

Reaver StihlBohrn
Semper Ubi sub Ubi


**Disclaimer**
Written post above applies to part time EQ player, non parser, non coder, non twinker, non Ubber guider! Content of post directly reflects what has worked for said poster and is in no means a refelction of what all other players should do! That is all.


https://web.archive.org/web/20030411065058/http://everquest.allakhazam.com/db/item.html?item=6888

RE: SHUTUP Reply... By: Miraj,
24 posts
Posted @ Wed, Jan 9th 3:34 PM 2002 Score: Good[3.50]
A pally can't taunt off an equal level ranger with a Ssoy ?! That isn't a completment to you, that's an insult to the paladin. as an SK I can taunt off rogues 10 levels higher than me in OT, The rogue had a PROCING Yak (you were probably not procing cuz loio is lower than 35) and he had a trak tooth. That's not even the hardest time I've had. Personally I have trouble when the cleric heals me right when I pull so that the mob comes off.

Anyone else have that problem? it's annoying me a lot, just wondering if there's a faster way to build taunt for a 35 SK. ATM I use disease cloud cuz it's cheap and stays a long time, I also use siphon str to pull. If there's a chanter in the group I usually full DoT.


Phryyte Shadowbeast
Brother of Fell Blade from the 35th ring of Hell

P.S. We have jobs, learnig to escape aggro is yours, that paladin is very bad and probably scraped by now anyway, Funny part is the owner is thinking "Boy, Paladins suck, they can't even keep taunt" when it's really the player that is bad.

RE: Taunt Reply... By: Anonymous
Posted @ Sun, Oct 28th 8:19 AM 2001 Score: Default[2.00]
Shadowknights using 1h/shields and or high ac 2h weapons get very comparable ac to warriors at high levels. Equipment is more definitive than class in the high level game for this. As a high level sk, I routinely have better AC/HP than warriors of similar level solely because of equipment advantage. The reason we can't tank MAJOR mobs is solely because warriors defensive discipline is so overpowering.

How do shadowknights keep taunt?
Shadow vortex/Shroud of pain (vortex seems higher taunt), disease cloud (breaks mez, slight recycle time, cast vortex while waiting), taunt

I dont use disarm because it annoys me, not sure how good its aggro is heh

lifetaps... low taunt compared to disease dots/debuffs

flutter line/darkness... in themselves, high aggro, in combat, too long cast time, lose too much attack aggro

59sk on the wrong account

btw; to the other guy, cant attack while begging

Taunt Reply... By: Darknyss,
376 posts
Posted @ Fri, Oct 26th 12:27 PM 2001 Score: Decent[3.23]
I have to agree that warriors don't generate as much taunt as everyone wishes they would...
It's true that spells and such act as major taunts... which is why my ShadowKnight LEARNS when and how to use them!

I use spells like AC/STR/ATK steals to lower the mobs abiliteis and buff up mine... after the intitial hate, the warrior can start taunting the mob off of me.

If the warrior is getting low, i use disease cloud/lifetaps/dots... Darkness spells only if nobody else is snaring.

Taunt management is key in the game... i can out taunt and under taunt when I need too... The difference is most Warriors... (depending on armor and abilities) can EASILY take the damage much better than me OR ANY OTHER Paladin or ShadowKnight... making the group more efficient and safer... as in not having to hear the cleric say oom.... then the pally uses LoH, SK uses HT... they both die anyway and the group suffers.

other than that... Great Weapon !

Darknyss Grimscale
52 Iksar ShadowKnight
21 Ranger, 20 Monk, 20 Enchanter


https://web.archive.org/web/20041212032409/http://www.thesteelwarrior.org/forum/archive/index.php/t-1044.html

BrikBludgaard
06-05-2003, 12:34 PM
two words...

Disease Cloud
SK-spell Lvl 9 - Everquest release.
This spell used to call mobs from 200 range after a slow or tash or anything else... this was in the days where slow aggro was nearly insurmountable for a warrior.
Disease cloud was nerfed and Shadowknights got Terrors...

Shadowknights have owned aggro since release after level 9 period.

This is from a Shadowknight since beta...


QUOTE
You have actually just supported the warrior's issue with Knight aggro weather you meant to or not. The introduction of low mana stuns/massive mana regen/and the DPS increase for knights via itemization and mechanics tunes along with the style of fight introduced in PoP (low hp's,high damage output mobs) is exactly what is quickly relegating the Warrior to a raid tank/defensive needed only type of role.
END QUOTE

-Low mana stuns... unlike warriors, I will choose not to comment on something I have little experience with.

-Massive Mana regen - lies... only to a warrior who never uses mana would there EVER be massive mana regen... I am always running OOM to do HALF the things I want to do. This is with FT9 and elemental gear.

-DPS boost... knights used to do less damage than they were supposed to... like 50-60% of a warrior... it was so bad that 1H weapons that dropped off the SAME mob (example Kreizenn) as the 2H that the knights wielded did more damage in the hands of a warrior than the 2H the knights wielded. A single 1H should not outdamage a 2H weapon from the same mob. Knights now average 80%ish of a warrior in melee. (119DPS Knight melee vs 147DPS warrior melee vs PoEb mobs.. both from the back, both using same weapon... (SEWS) both wearing full suits of elemental minus legs (and BP).

-Itemization... Warriors tend to count the SK/PAL weapons and lump SK-only and Pal-only together thinking that pals can use Sk weapons... They can't. the number of Knight only weapons that either SK or PAL (not both) can use is about equal to warriors and their "might as well be warrior only" dual wield weapons. the problem was that knights cannot use warrior 1H weapons due to their habit of MISSING all over the place. (5-7% more than warriors) and dealing nowhere near the average damage due to lower ATK. Thus Knights required special weapons to even get to 80%. Warriors/rogue/rangers/bards all have similar needs... Sk/pal have similar needs.
This has all changed in PoP... everyone uses SEWS or BoW or Time weapons... Warriors and Knights alike.

Could you please stop the lies and rhetoric that everyone knows means nothing?

Brik

Stryph
06-08-2003, 08:12 AM
Iandrain I will answer your post in a civilized way since you were so kind as to do it yourself (Unlike a certain self-rightous bullshitter here).

Pre-PoP SKs and Paladins were in the exact same boat as Warriors are in right now. From an SK point of view, we lacked dps, we lacked hps and AC, we were exactly as you said. Tanks but not as good as a warrior. This went on for literally years. Many many MANY SKs quit the game because everyone thought VI/SoE just forgot about their bastard redheaded step child SK class.

When PoP was introduced and extreme agro became a neccesity, the SK class was shoved into the spot light. Not because of anything we did (God knows they never listened to us in the first place). But because Sony decided to make mobs hit for 500-800 a pop in yard trash, and you needed agro on a tank instantly. Which both the SK and Paladins filled that roll extremely well.

We've had our agro spells since the day beta was released (Darkness series+Disease Cloud. Terror line is merely a sad replacement for DC). We've had this agro power all along, but since it was never needed to such an extreme level, no one really cared.

But now I find it sort of funny that people want the SKs and Paladins nerfed when we've had this sort of agro control since beta, instead of trying to fix the warrior class.

Grhar
06-09-2003, 07:59 AM
I am beginning to feel guilty about being the author of a thread which has developed into an argument about level 9 spells which knights no longer use.

Correct me if I'm wrong... the agro that Disease Cloud caused has been reduced since its original incarnation. Which would imply that it was never intended to generate so much agro, and that the oversight has since then been adjusted. I'm going to lose an argument concerning how well shadowknights generated agro back during the first 2 years of EQ. Most of my experience with shadowknight agro was limited observation, nothing firsthand. So if casting a single 10 mana Disease Cloud on a mob was all that was needed to hold agro for an entire fight, I'll have to take your word for it.

Flash of Light on the otherhand is not a bread & butter taunter. It's a dangerous spell, especially in dungeons. I know very few paladins who ever have it mem'd regularly, at any level.

Kaesorn
06-09-2003, 09:12 PM
Actually I've noticed some easily gotten paladin weapons that have stun procs. Although only useable by Tunare worshippers, the Nature's Defender is a pretty easily gotten weapon, with a better proc than their epic, better ratio and proc rate too. Holds agro for the paladin easily.

Disease Cloud WAS the best agro holder in the game, until they changed slows. DC adds a disease counter. It used to be those disease counters gave a LOT of agro, enough for shamans/enchanters to understand that if they slowed, they were dead. Warriors simply couldn't generate THAT much agro to compensate, and Taunt didn't always work. SKs could tho, but this was before the plethora of upgrades Knights got that made them the tanks they are today. DC was "nerfed" when they changed how much agro disease counters gave...DC can still gain agro, but DC only gives like 1 counter compared to 16 on slows. The nerf was more of a side effect of this change (Absor actually posted on our boards saying that we shouldn't be using a level 9 spell to gain agro at high levels anyways, as our higher level spells do the same thing still, just takes more mana...hmmm...this sound familiar to anyone?).

I'm actually a strong proponent to change stuns where if the mob is immune to the stun portion (any damage still affects agro as normal), it gives less agro than it does now, or if it actually lands. I understand this would change some of the weapon setups used by warriors...so other things would need to change as well. Paladins would still have stuns available to them to let them gain agro (although some levels would mean they were weaker than they are on other levels...however this is true to several casters, not paladins alone)

Paladins and shadowknights are NOT the same way they were back in Kunark or so. They're only upgrade has not just been agro abilities. Their defensive abilities have been upgraded, Taunt now maxes at 220 at 60, many spells have been given to them, solidifying their role and capabilities. Not only that, but people KNOW more. They know more about what a paladin and SK can do now (hell, PoP at least did that much, giving easy groups to these classes allowing people to see what they can do). How many people know all of what a beastlord can do? Not as many...how many people know that at 62, a BST can give everyone BMB plus atk? It takes time for people to learn these things. People know more about what a Knight can do now tho, so taking away agro, despite claims, would not make knights the same they were a couple years ago.

Although, people aren't wanting knights to lose ALL agro...like myself, people just want the DIFFERENCE overall to lessen in some way. Although many others just want to bring something else to the group besides just tanking, like knights.

[long.liam]

Ok, so I just got home and finally had a chance to test disease cloud with my brother. His Burst of flame spell, a level 1 druid spell that does 5 dmg, was able to pull aggro off of my SK after I casted Disease Cloud. Maybe the Disease counter hate was removed? I don't know if this is intentional or not. Not sure at what time the disease counter hate was removed. Based off of these links: https://everquest.allakhazam.com/history/patches-2002-1.html & http://www.tski.co.jp/baldio/patch/20020424.html, the counters were removed April 23, 2002 to decrease the hate on slow spells that had a disease counter added to them.
I can't seem to find exactly how much hate a disease counter should add though. I'm not sure if anyone had posted this in era.

[long.liam]

Yea, I just tested it on my shaman too. All of the Disease and Poison counters are not producing any hate. My brothers druid could rip Guardian Heridion off of my shaman with 1 cast of Calefaction, a Level 44 druid spell that does 450 damage. Bane of Nife does 150 dmg DD + 214 dmg per tick = 364 dmg. Only the Dmg is producing hate. Not the counters. Guard Heridion did re-aggro my shaman after 2 dot ticks. I tested all of my shamans other dots. None are producing any counter hate. I'm pretty sure this unintentional. Poison counter hate was not removed until 2005.

[Jimjam]

Time to bank infestations?

[Vanifac]

It's gonna be hard to gauge how "good" disease cloud was back in the day based on anecdotal comments because players were just worse. Damage classes were doing so much less damage that disease cloud probably didn't need to be as god tier as it was to hold aggro just as well.

[Coridan]

The posted evidence makes it pretty clear that it was very very good and then nerfed late in our timeline. It's possible Green just hit that rough point in the timeline since it's into Luclin era at this point.

[Ennewi]

https://web.archive.org/web/20010911123241/http://eq.castersrealm.com/playguides/VIEW.ASP?ID=5645

PLAYER STRATEGY - SHADOWKNIGHT
INTELLIGENT SHADOWKNIGHTS - Daelin, Xev
The key to attaining the full range of power associated with the shadowknight class is simple. Intelligence. Ogres, Trolls, and to a lesser degree Iksar make lousey SKs. Why? Simple, they're stupid. If you're just going to run up and hit the attack button I suggest making a warrior. Now that we've got that nonsense out of the way let's clear up another misconception or two. Strength, worthless. Ignore it once you've got enough to wear your armor without being encumbered. At 36 I have 110 strength and I'm quite content to keep it there. Before level 20 use a 1h weapon with a shield, I recommend a polished granite tomahawk, the proc on this weapon is a shieldskin effect. Extremely useful. Why switch at 20 to 2h instead of keeping 1h and bash? Simple, 1h weapons offer rather small fast damage, this is greater than 2h damage over time really, but there's a reason to want the slower weapons. Recently Verant changed shadowknights so that we can cast between swings without adding to the delay, this means that slower weapons allow us to utilize our mana reserves without penalizing our melee damage. Remember! You're not a warrior, don't just run up and beat things up unless you're out of mana. You're a caster, act like one, meditate between pulls if you're not the puller. When you're soloing use fear kiting, very effective and saves a ton of damage to yourself, using your mana wisely you can keep an opponent snared and lifetap it often enough to keep yourself healthy even soloing at higher levels. Your superior intelligence will allow you to regenerate faster than the vaunted trolls could ever achieve. How? Simple, when soloing do so next to a group, when you're hurt just lifetap a little off their pulls, they won't mind as long as you don't KS from them, which is very unlikely. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= Pets Pets are extremely useful at lower levels (9-15)and higher levels (52+) though admittedly right now mine is of limited use because it misses so much, however at upper levels the pet becomes quite an ally, get used to handling it. Always use /pet no taunt, keep yourself as the main target. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= Grouping Your job in a group is simple, make yourself the single most hated opponent the mob has. Very easy for us, infact we have some spells that help. Disease cloud, level 9 dot, keep it memorized! one cast of this little puppy and a single use of the taunt skill will make you the single most hated enemy a mob has. Warriors are likely to be jealous of your superior taunting abilities, you can even outtaunt rangers if you really try. Another good taunt spell is Heart Flutter, which we recieve at 39. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= Harm Touch Quite a dilemma is when you use this, save it for when you're about to be slaughtered or burn it the second it pops up. Well I offer this advice, if you're soloing save it because you might need it (especially before level 30), if you're in a group that can handle everything being pulled, burn it when it recharges (assuming the mob isn't nearly dead of course, that'd be a waste). Different shadowknights employ this differently. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= Weapons I've already stated I prefer 2h weapons, and I've said why. Now for the delay, you'll want a weapon with a decently long delay, 3-5 seconds, no longer or it'll be too slow to be useful. Personally I use an Argent Defender, which has a delay of 4.9 seconds. I can cast my lifetap between swings quite nicely and keep myself healthy wether grouped or alone. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= Skills Some guides on this very site advocate the insane, pushing all your training points into something the moment you get it. Only the stupid need to do this, ogres, trolls, iksar. If you're intelligent enough, which you undoubtedly are due to the benefits, you can simply put one point in to learn the basics and watch it fly up. The one skill I had a problem with was Riposte, the only problem was I had to keep myself highest on the hate list, but by grouping I capped this skill before I hit the next level. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= Prefered Races Erudites and Dark Elves make the best shadowknights. Dark elves have superior vision, better starting location (much closer to the center of things). Downside is they have horrid faction, and slightly lower intelligence. Erudites have the highest intelligence of any SK race, they also have very good faction for a shadow knight, unfortunatly that's all they have going for them. Lousey starting area (it's a great zone, but in a bad position), no night vision. Trolls ogres, and to a lesser degree iksar, don't bother, be a warrior instead if you're going to pick one of these. They would take a huge amount of intelligence items to make them close to the starting point of the two best races. Don't waste your time and platinum. Humans are middle of the road, not really strong, not particularly bright, but using your starting points wisely you can be strong enough to wear your armor and bright enough to be useful. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= Armor Bronze is decent, but it's ugly as sin, It's good enough up until you can get darkforge, or better yet Sentient. If you're an erudite you can get cold iron from Warrens, adds to magic resistance and has a very cool look, otherwise identical to bronze. Sentient is lighter than bronze, but expensive, it adds to intelligence very nicely. Definatly the armor you should wear if you have a choice between it and Darkforge. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= Enjoy your new shadowknight with the intelligence to use your power correctly. A well played shadowknight can make a warrior seeth with envy. Enjoy doing it.

Strategy Submitted on: Monday, May 28, 2001

[Jimjam]

Can confirm heart flutter is making decent aggro these days on blue. I think it is the ac debuff.

[Ennewi]

http://www.eqemulator.org/forums/showthread.php?t=39819

#1
Old 07-02-2015, 01:27 AM
Torven
Sarnak

Join Date: Aug 2014
Posts: 50
Default EQLive Hate List Logic and Spell Hate Values

...

Disease and poison counters used to add hate, but don't any longer.

This is how SK disease cloud used to be a good aggro tool. Poison counter hate was removed in April 2005. Disease counter hate was apparently removed earlier, but I was unable to determine the date. For now I gave counters on TAKP hate until I can find evidence that the nerf was pre-december 2002.


That nerf did come before December 2002, but after the end of Velious by a little over 4 months. Below are accounts from players having just recently realized the change that was made.

https://web.archive.org/web/20020713143501/http://forums.shadowknight.org/showthread.php?s=&threadid=1544

Vaiyo
Member
Registered: Mar 2002
Location:
Posts: 19

Disease cloud changed?
Is it just me or did Disease Cloud taunt ability get nerfed? Shot 10 at a mob in UP and it still kept beating on the enchanter (he died, needless to say - went from full health to none while I tried to unload DC) ... and just now I can't even taunt off a shaman slow.

Was wondering if anyone ran into the same problem.

__________________

Magelo profile

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

Old Post 05-10-2002 07:18 AM
Vaiyo is offline Click Here to See the Profile for Vaiyo Find more posts by Vaiyo Add Vaiyo to your buddy list

Jorren Y`Kelt
Member
Registered: Mar 2002
Location: Seattle
Posts: 26


Yeah I noticed it tonight. Used to be able to pull a mob off someone from across the room with DC...

__________________
Jorren Y`Kelt
Grave Lord
League of Levity
The Rathe

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

Old Post 05-10-2002 07:51 AM
Jorren Y`Kelt is offline Click Here to See the Profile for Jorren Y`Kelt Click here to Send Jorren Y`Kelt a Private Message Find more posts by Jorren Y`Kelt Add Jorren Y`Kelt to your buddy list

Stavanger
Member
Registered: Apr 2002
Location:
Posts: 48


Yes, I noticed the exact same thing in UP last night. Was getting minimal taunt value from using DC, switched to clinging and SV, results were much better. Not happy if this is true.

__________________
Stavanger Shadowblade 60th Tier'Dal Gravelord [Magelo]
Officer of United Kingdoms on Antonius Bayle

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

Old Post 05-10-2002 10:04 AM
Stavanger is offline Click Here to See the Profile for Stavanger Click here to Send Stavanger a Private Message Find more posts by Stavanger Add Stavanger to your buddy list

Xanyia
Member
Registered: Mar 2002
Location: San Diego
Posts: 84

...
Last night I almost got our rager killed in chardok. He was used to not having to jolt a whole lot and I was just chain casting DC for nothing.
Good thing I remembered there was a patch so I got SV out of the back of my spellbook.
I sent /feedback last night, I did today I will tomorrow until they fix it or come up with a better solution.
Shadow vortex doesn't aggro quite as well as disease cloud does!

Xanyia Darkover
59 Revenant
Fusion of Flame
Terris Thule

__________________


Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

Old Post 05-10-2002 11:31 AM
Xanyia is offline Click Here to See the Profile for Xanyia Click here to Send Xanyia a Private Message Find more posts by Xanyia Add Xanyia to your buddy list

Lord Vedar
Member
Registered: Apr 2002
Location:
Posts: 52


Damn I was wondering why DC was not taunting as it used to. I was in HS and chain casting DC with little effect. THIS IS WAY MESSED UP. DC was FAST Low Mana and HUGE taunt, now it may look like we need to cast slower more mana eatting spells.

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

Old Post 05-10-2002 12:47 PM
Lord Vedar is offline Click Here to See the Profile for Lord Vedar Click here to Send Lord Vedar a Private Message Find more posts by Lord Vedar Add Lord Vedar to your buddy list


This is the patch Xanyia was referring to that inadvertently nerfed Disease Cloud...

https://everquest.allakhazam.com/history/patches-2002-1.html

------------------------------
April 23, 2002 3:00 am
------------------------------

** Spells **

- Casters of slow spells recently given a disease component (such as
Shiftless Deeds and Turgur's Insects) should no longer attract undue
attention to themselves.

The Shadows of Luclin release date: December 4, 2001.

[Ennewi]

https://web.archive.org/web/20051217005349/http://www.shadowknight.org/forums/archive/index.php/t-374.html

Ghob Owar
04-02-2002, 06:33 PM
"In the last patch Slow spells for both Enchanters and Shamans were altered so that they now have disease counters. Has this made them into a spell which can now be removed by Cure Disease instead of Cancel Magic?
Yes, that was the goal behind the change to the spell lines.

Getting slowed by an NPC is incredibly debilitating to players, and up until now you either had to just be sad until the spell wore off or risk dispelling all of your positive buffs while trying to remove the slow. This change should add value to classes that can cure disease and make the spell line more useful.

We are aware that there is a problem with slow spells generating additional agro due to the disease component, and hope to have that fixed in the next spells patch.

- Rich Waters"

WooT! No more waiting for slow to wear without losing 1/2 my buffs! Yay Diseeeze!

Mynegon
04-02-2002, 06:55 PM
Watch them screw up agro on Disease Clould etc, fixing this.

Nocifer Deathblade
04-03-2002, 09:07 AM
I -REALLY- hope that they don't weaken our cherished disease cloud aggro power as side effect from that darn slow aggro change...

Rhumba_Kween
04-03-2002, 10:01 AM
When I saw this this morning, the first thing I thought was "Oh great they're gonna indirectly nerf SK's fixing this"

Hopefully I'm wrong, but I'll be they just lower the hate component of disease spell, and that would be bad.

We shall see.

Rhumba

Moongaden
04-03-2002, 02:10 PM
DC was indirectly nerfed last year when they made all spells less resistable. I (and all the SK's i talked to in game) said that DC seemed to be giving about 1/3'rd of the aggro.

We used to be kings of aggro, now we're almost playing like bards chain casting DC if we ever want to get hit

Walil
04-03-2002, 02:22 PM
They really need to change the aggro on slow. It's completely insane right now. I had a ranger, warrior, and rogue in my group last night and none of them could pull off me. The only person who could was my shadowknight. Using spells like the screams and Dooming Darkness I could get aggro but it was a pain.

If the changes to aggro indirectly effect disease cloud I think we can live with it. We have a ton of other spells that are hefty in mana cost but do the same job. Trust me, it's better to have disease cloud nerfed then having to rez your shaman after every pull.

As far as I'm concerned. Sk's are still the kings of gaining aggro.

Rhumba_Kween
04-03-2002, 03:05 PM
Sorry we should not have to live with it? Capitulating because it benefits another one of your chars seems wrong to me.

Why should we have to be nerfed because of a change to another class?

Enchanter changes have caused so much indirect nefage its not funny. Pet aggro is a prime example. Their pets got too powerful when they could gain aggro, so VI changes the aggrro that pets can get to almost nothing and they indirectly nerfed mages that rely so heavy on their pets.

I think it is very important that we submit through dev corner letting them know to not nerf DC when they change aggro for the slows.

Rhumba

Walil
04-03-2002, 04:18 PM
Look I'm not saying fix my shaman at the cost of nerfing the shadowknight class. If they absolutely have to reduce the aggro on disease in order to fix the problem then I can live with it.

I like having the option to cure slow without removing buff spells. In my opinion this more than makes up for my shadowknight having to change her spell line up a bit to gain aggro.

Now if they can fix the slow aggro issue without changing the way Disease Cloud acts as a taunt that would be awesome. Since they haven't specified what their solution is I'm not really going to worry about it.

Darko
04-03-2002, 08:09 PM
I also remember them stating something about lowering agro that Dease counter generate, I am hoping this wont affect Dease Cloud spell, cause that would reall y screw the SK taunt abilities....
The have done this once before "unintentionaly" a few months ago, when they lowerd the agro enchanter debuffs generate, which effected Shadow Vortex etc..

Naelael Sang'Noir
04-03-2002, 10:32 PM
IMO, the only way a SK shouldnt have disease cloud mem'd is you are soloing.. They better not nerf disease cloud aggro.

Nocifer Deathblade
04-04-2002, 09:14 AM
Heh, LOTS of high level SK players on my server never ever used Disease cloud and they told me that they stopped using it since lvl 15. I guess those type of Sks are basically twinkees and PLed to high level. I kept telling them that they ought be shot down if they never used it. ;) Disease cloud is one of required spell slot if you are main tank and needs to taunt..

Valkyria Grymreaper
04-04-2002, 09:38 AM
Took me a while to realize just how good DC still is - even after all the advice fellow SKs kept giving me. I'm glad I keep it memmed now.

Example: was asked to tank in Chardok last night. Taunt or two on mezzed mobs and pop them with DC = mob never left me to go slap the chanter :D

My spell set up currently:

1. Siphon Life
2. Abduction of Str
3. Shroud of Hate (god i cant wait til Torrent of Hate...)
4. Disease Cloud
5. Engulfing Darkness (Dooming if a crack dealer present)
6. Grim Aura
7. Scream of Death
8. Feign Death

synnoira
04-04-2002, 02:35 PM
i haven't seen a lot of aggro off the ATK drains personally, not to compare with DC anyhow
i'm sure you know this but DC is something you want to be careful of pulling since the DoT lasts a long old time and who knows if you get an add you may need to switch too
i use shadowvortex to establish aggro and follow that with DC i find that combo works very effectively and is quick and mana-cost effective, shroud of pain and clinging darkness to follow up if really required
btw if rooted casting DC on self breaks root i've had to do that a couple of times when rooted on pulling back, since the damage is so low from it its doesn't make a big difference to your health bar in the subsequent fight
i've never dueled, can't see the point, but i've read here that casting DC on self when dueling a chanter is also a good way to stop mezzes due to the DoT, but i can't tell you how true that is from my own experience

Groobash
04-04-2002, 05:11 PM
Faucetta...you notice yet that there are no other SKs here who don't keep DC perma memmed except when soloing?

hmmmmmmm

Do we have other spells to generate agro? Sure...but none of them make as much agro as fast or for such limited mana.

So when they butcher DC in an attempt to fix slows (you can *almost* count on it), and a SK tries prying a critter of your shaman but can't, remember what you said here while waiting for your rez...and the next one..and the next one...and the next one...

Chania
04-04-2002, 06:47 PM
"Judging from the tenor of your post I probably wouldn't take advice from you either." (In reference to Nocifer)

This made soda come out of my nose.

The people who don't use DC are the ones who unmemmed in around level 15 and never looked back. It is extremely powerful in the right hands.

velourea
04-04-2002, 07:51 PM
hey not to be mean, but could you just for a second swallow your raging pride. it's not good for you.

nocifer is a nice and good sk and is very knowledgeable. brael is a big meanie but knowlegeable nonetheless.

the reason that i think this topic is so touchy with the sk community is because the possibilty of nerfing DC agro would deeply impact the SK as a class. DC is one of the best taunt spells, due to its small mana cost and large taunt. shadow vortex and other spells are good but DC only costs 10 mana so you can chain cast it all day. agro control is the area of expertise of SK's and nerfing DC could have a seriously detrimental affect to how i for one would play the class. it is just speculation on whether verant in its infinite wisdom/laziness will cause the new tweaks with disease resist to affect all spells rather than just the slows, but i can say for myself that i sincerely hope not.

Krushum Gudended
04-04-2002, 10:07 PM
Not usin DC because it is a level nine spell is ignorant...

Can't count the number of times it has saved a caster from certain death for me, and because I am a troll (not the brightest start in the sky) the low mana cost is perfect.

I will really be pissed if this nerfed, even by an oversight.

Keyan Aubaine
04-04-2002, 11:17 PM
Sheesh.

What the hell is up with you these days ?

Get real, DC is a frelling level 9 spell, and you're all acting like if it was our number one class defining ability!
Sure it's a great way to agro without spending much mana or even losing damage with a long casting, you won't find me saying it isn't a very useful spell, but guess what ? If a level NINE spell becomes less efficient at level 60, i wont be whining about it saying they nerfed SKs.

Hell, i almost WISH they would nerf it (and i highly doubt this will happen) just so you would lose that lazy and whiny attitude. Shadow vortex, heart flutter, darkness... we have a crapload of spells to agro if we want to, and you're all complaining about a possible (and unlikely) nerf of a frelling level nine spell ? Commenting on the abilities of a poster simply because he prefers not to use that damn spell ?

You do realize what the hell you are arguing over ? A level NINE spell ? a mere 5 dmg nuke with a lousy 1 dmg/tick which just happens because of VI's poor hate list coding to generate a lot of agro ? Even if we lost some of the taunt value of this stupid spell, we would still keep all our 10 thousand other ways to taunt.

I'm reaching the 200 played days on my shadowknight, i also have 180 played days as a warrior, and almost 80 as a rogue, all of them have been part of the high end raids at one point or the other, killed tunare, fought the AoW.... i've done it all. I have been a poster on the knight watch for a while, and a lurker for much longer before that. I dont keep DC memed most of the time because i prefer to fit in spells that enhance my dmg output or my ability to tank more.
Yes the spell is extremely useful to taunt, i'm not going to deny it, but without it mobs still stay glued to my blue ass like flies on a troll's. Are you going to question my abilities as well, or are you going to lose that lazy attitude and realize you're able to do much more than chain cast that frelling spell you got when you hadn't even left your home city's surroundings ?

Days like this you guys remind me of the nerfhouse or the monkly business boards, damnit i know tihs community is able to do better.


PS: synnoira, you'll be forced to lick a troll's toes for that mistake!

Ronak
04-05-2002, 05:02 AM
DC was my staple up until my mid 50's. At about this time, I started
regularly grouping with a couple chanters who had heart attacks if I
cast a DoT on a mob with more than 1 in camp. I started using shadow
vortex, and a bit later, shroud of pain. Certainly a bit more mana intensive
than DC, but I have never had a problem with aggro since I stopped
using DC. Hell, I sometimes overaggro with just a few casts of SV/SoP.

Last night was the first time I memmed DC in about 5 months, believe it!
For the first time in ages I was in a bardless/chanterless group, in CT, and
DC performed its function perfectly. (low mana, good aggro spell)

A nerf to DC would have zero impact on me, but that doesn't mean I
want it nerfed. It is one of our tools, and a very good one.

As many of us know already, you can't just sit back quietly if something
is screwed up or nerfed, or it will start a trend. Nothx on DC nerfage,
it's still nice to have it to fall back on once in a while.

Side note:
If you have a chanter that doesn't mind DoTs, a very low mana taunt
alternative (IE, ZERO mana) is BE gaunts. Gotta love 0 mana aggro 'spells'.

Ronak
Gravelord of Machin Shin
Xegony

velourea
04-05-2002, 05:27 PM
nice, informative post keyan. (add keyan to the "knowledable sk's list" if you haven't already :p) personally, ive always believed that DC caused so much agro because it is a combination of a dd and dot. i think combination spells cause significantly more agro than single effect spells (e.g. like darkness with a dot and snare). this is just my personal speculation tho.

anyway, while DC is certainly not the only way to get agro, it is the most efficent that i have seen. i would love to cast Shadow Vortex every time a rogue/happy caster really pisses a mob off, but due to mana constraints at my level it simply isn't possible. even with clarity, it's barely enough mana regen to keep myself buffed with Shadow Vortex/Scream of Pain/Grim Aura/Scream of Death(some spells a few of you prolly have sitting collecting dust). I could cast SV but i'd have to stop every so often to med while the rest of the group is good to go. DC is the most convenient spell i have atm for agro management. I fully understand that this can change as i level, but for me and the majority of the SK population that isnt quite level 60 yet, DC is an invaluable tool. even casting something like clinging darkness is a bit of a hassle compared to the ease of DC. while many of the high-level sk's can find many other ways to taunt, i have found that for my general purposes, DC is the best way to make a mob love me.



velourea im a big meanie? =(

jk brael :p

Final post in the thread, a bump alluding to the nerf and subsequent feedback from affected players.

Krushum Gudended
05-11-2002, 08:40 AM
Thought I should bump this.... take a look at the dates Alan, we were dreading this from the moment this was announced.

I for one sent in an email to the Developer's Corner, and I am sure others did.

Please take a look at this post. :/

These dates also correspond with those highlighted in the post above.

[Ennewi]

Source for the comment made by Rich Waters...

https://web.archive.org/web/20020416063739/http://eq.castersrealm.com/viewarticle.asp?Article=4207

GET RID OF THAT SLOW, APRIL 2, 2002

In the last patch Slow spells for both Enchanters and Shamans were altered so that they now have disease counters. Has this made them into a spell which can now

be removed by Cure Disease instead of Cancel Magic?

Yes, that was the goal behind the change to the spell lines.
Getting slowed by an NPC is incredibly debilitating to players, and up until now you either had to just be sad until the spell wore off or risk dispelling all of your

positive buffs while trying to remove the slow. This change should add value to classes that can cure disease and make the spell line more useful.

We are aware that there is a problem with slow spells generating additional agro due to the disease component, and hope to have that fixed in the next spells patch.

- Rich Waters

Note that even though these are a 'disease' instead of a magical debuff they still save against Magic for the purposes of resists (with the exception of Plague of

Insects).


https://web.archive.org/web/20020421194940/http://forums.castersrealm.com/cgi-bin/eq/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=12&t=003866

Author Topic: Slow - anyone noticed any changes recently?
kyrilia

Member # 1439
Rate Member

posted March 25, 2002 12:46 PM Profile for kyrilia Author's Homepage Send New Private Message Edit/Delete Post Reply With Quote
Hey guys,
Has anyone noticed changes in the amount of aggro that our slows are causing recently?

I've been slowing as usual, but since the last patch, I'm getting a ton more aggro, or so it seems.

Just wanted to see if anyone else had noticed this, or if its just me.

Thanks for your input!

Ky

--------------------

Kyrilia Kerenski
56th Luminary of the Tribunal
Bristlebane

Posts: 61 | IP: Logged
Shazzai

Member # 23732
Rate Member

posted March 25, 2002 01:02 PM Profile for Shazzai Author's Homepage Send New Private Message Edit/Delete Post Reply With Quote
It probably has something to do with them adding disease counters to the slows.
I've noticed it too.

Posts: 306 | IP: Logged
slamdunkjam

Member # 5924
Rate Member

posted March 25, 2002 03:03 PM Profile for slamdunkjam Author's Homepage Send New Private Message Edit/Delete Post Reply With Quote
Yes! And it's getting pretty hard to slow and then sit unless the mob is way down on health...so I end up brandishing my piercer more and more...with multiple pulls

and no chanter it's unavoidable. I tell my group "I'll tank this one" while they're fighting other mobs. They laugh...but they don't know the modern shammy. Yeah

buckos, I can tank.
--------------------

Owner, McMarren Kalish Inn
7th & Main
Halas, Antonica

Posts: 232 | IP: Logged
Nirtox

Member # 6707
Rate Member

posted March 28, 2002 03:59 PM Profile for Walknot Author's Homepage Send New Private Message Edit/Delete Post Reply With Quote
I noticed that now Plague of insects now has much more agro. I slowed the Captian in WW with the disease slow and was treated like ham sandwich at a soup

kitchen. Couldnt get agro off me for quite some time. I also noticed what appears to be increased agro in Chardok. It was even worse when I bounced tigirs of 4

royal guards. I think I lived for a whole 2 seconds.
Did not have the same problems in Velks, but noticed that Pox held agro a long time as well, but that could be a damage to tick ration thing that kept me high on the

hate list. /shrug Pox works pretty fast for a disease dot.

I did notice they fixed the Grow bug. It no longer seems to shrink pets.

Havent noticed anything else that seems diff other then the exp in ME. My guess is another covert shot with the nerf stick there. but then again, its all perception

anyway.

--------------------

WalkNot SoSoftly
Oracle
Innoruuk

Posts: 228 | IP: Logged
wargren

Member # 1439
Rate Member

posted April 02, 2002 07:15 PM Profile for kyrilia Author's Homepage Send New Private Message Edit/Delete Post Reply With Quote
AHA!
I knew I wasn't just smoking too much of my alchemy herbs!
http://eq.castersrealm.com/viewarticle.asp?Article=4207

Looks like they're going to try to fix the excess aggro issue.

--------------------

Kyrilia Kerenski
56th Luminary of the Tribunal
Bristlebane

Posts: 61 | IP: Logged
Nirtox

Member # 29973

posted April 03, 2002 05:45 AM Profile for Nirtox Author's Homepage Edit/Delete Post Reply With Quote
Hiho,
yes, they are aware of that aggro change on slow .. but I am not sure if they change it back so quickly. Damn in-game mechanics.

So long
Nirtox O'Vindharr

Posts: 10 | IP: Logged
Sebekiz

Member # 5005
Member Rated:


posted April 03, 2002 09:28 AM Profile for Sebekiz Author's Homepage Send New Private Message Edit/Delete Post Reply With Quote
Nice of VI to actually mention that they made a change. I guess the Shaman and Enchanter corpses were getting piled too high, and they had to admit to it before

someone noticed!
Posts: 144 | IP: Logged

[PabloEdvardo]

more than enough evidence

p99 devs probably merged something out of era from TAKP or similar

[Ennewi]

https://web.archive.org/web/20020703004322/http://pub41.ezboard.com/fthecrossroadstavern8833frm20.showNextMessage?topi cID=127.topic

Maldar
Registered User
Posts: 54
(5/10/02 2:38:48 pm)
Reply Disease Cloud Problems
I was in the deep last night with some guildies, where I noticed that keeping aggro seemed to be more difficult. After reading the SK boards this afternoon, I found out why:

forums.shadowknight.org/s...eadid=1544

It seems that the last patch decreased taunt for disease spells, making disease cloud less effective as an aggro builder. Interesting this is that the SK community is now discussing that problem with Absor on the SK boards.

Stay tuned, this one could be interesting . . .

Maldar Nyteblade

Teir'Dal Revenant of the 59th Skull

Diabolical Curse Generator
The Diabolical Curse Generator - Get yours!!!

Daelem
Registered User
Posts: 203
(5/12/02 3:18:08 pm)
Reply Re: Disease Cloud Problems
Yeah, I just went over and posted under it. I think it was BS. While I know it wasn't an intentional nerf, VI refuseing to do anything about it practically makes it intentional. Absors 3 line posts piss me off, I would harmtouch him but hes 300% fortifyed with BS therefor until I am lvl 65 my harmtouch won't overcome his MR..

Frued
Registered User
Posts: 48
(5/13/02 11:22:26 am)
Reply Re: Disease Cloud Problems
This unintentional nerf is going to cause alot of problems for me when there is no Enchanter/Bard in my group.
My INT is pretty low (85) hence my surname. I hope something is done soon otherwise I will be OOM all the time and no one will care until there dead.
CD,SV.and Heart Flutter just ain't DC.

Frued NoEinstein
Corpse for Rallos Zek
Undead Member of Tranquil Domain
Ogre Reaver

Edited by: Frued at: 5/15/02 9:56:02 am


https://web.archive.org/web/20040513011227/http://www.eqdiva.com/Forums/ShowPost.aspx?PostID=31745

Re: I dont WANT da agro.. YOU keep it! 4/1/2004 5:03:22 PM (Total replies: 1)
Disease Cloud used to be very cheap aggro spell for SKs. Then they added Disease counters to slows for shamans, chanters, and beastlords, so that they couldn't be dispelled, only cured with cure disease. This resulted in so much aggro from slows, that casting them early enough in the fight to be useful ensured that the slower was tanking. The fix? Make disease counters very low aggro. End result? The end of cheap aggro generation by SKs via Disease Cloud.


https://web.archive.org/web/20020724115229/http://pub13.ezboard.com/fpaladinsofnorrathgeneral.showAddReplyScreenFromWe b?index=3&topicID=15866.topic

zagzal
Noble Squire
Posts: 5
(6/21/02 7:20:28 am)
Reply
Re: are paladins tanks or not?.
Well well well lookie here another class envy SK who has no clue on what the subject of the thread was in the first place

I think Sk's are better tanks in Exp groups our lifetaps will cause us to do more DPS and it will help on the mana for our healer. We can pull alot better (fd split) and we are the Win =P

Listen up SK boy it's about pallys tanking ring a bell in that clouded mind of yours? ( look above)

Aggro control Facts ( ready?) (yes i am ready)

1)FOL always out taunted your pre nerf disease cloud ( i was in a group once and out taunted two of you chain casting FOL) ( You know it and I know it thats a damn lie, Pre nerf DC owned everything, There is no way a pally could out taunt me when DC was working)

2) now nerfed(cloud) chain stun's is all it takes to keep aggro on us and off you. ( we have other spells Clinging darkness, and our ac taps)

3) and this is a solid fact (ready?) you have only fought pallys that don't know what there doing . ( hmm i have beat some of the uberst poeple lol who knew how to fight)

sorry to shatter your hopes and dreams but hey theres still time to make a pally and lvl him up before eq3). ( sorry but sk forever :b)
Edited by: zagzal at: 6/21/02 7:21:18 am


https://web.archive.org/web/20021030033610/http://pub35.ezboard.com/fmonklybusiness43508frm17.showMessage?topicID=216. topic&index=36

Lord Stryph
Young Grasshoppah
Posts: 1
(10/13/02 8:18:50 am)
Reply
ezSupporter

Re: .
I won't go claiming I know all the aspects about monks. I don't play one. I play an SK. What I will do though is show you guys that it's not nearly as bad as you think it is.

SKs got an agro shaft a few months back. Starting with disease cloud, then they worked down the line through shadow vortex and shroud of pain. This right here nearly crippled our taunting abilities. Only the darkness line (Which is resisted 50% of the time in raid situations anyways) and Heart Flutter/Asytole are useful as taunt spells.

"But SKs got new taunt spells, they give you great agro abilities stop whining!!"....Eh no. The terror line is completly useless. It has to be cast within melee range, can't be used very well to peel anything more then melee range off of casters and the agro it gives isin't even all that high. They also created multiple versions of this for a reason, because even terror of death which you have to use from 53-59 is useless on anything over level 54 or so.

The voice line is moderatly useful, adding 6%-10% hate per hit or cast in 50-60 raid situations. This helps us maintain agro better, but still does nothing for our peeling abilties.

SK's tanking roles are similar to a warrior, they have screamed, bitched, whined, moaned, and complained that we can tank just as good or better as they can. Hell me personally I'll take a 250 skill in 1hs and 2hs, lower my defense back to 230, take my pet away and give me dual wield. But wait, were defensive tanks without any sort of defensive discipline that is useful beyond 15 seconds and even then it takes 72 minutes to use it again. Only after YEARS of arguing with developers and people like Absor did we get Harmshield (18 seconds of invulnerability).

So sure, we can MA, we can split tank, tank mezz...but without that agro ability we use to have, might as well permenantly assign a Paladin to do the job for us since they can use a level 9 spell to gain massive agro, but we can't.

I could continue with from here and create a huge amount of broken aspects of the SK class, but that'd take A) To much time B) To much space and C) I'm to lazy to type all that out.

My point of all this rambling? The hits you guys are taking isint nearly as bad as some classes that have been nearly beaten to death by the nerf zweinhander.

Personally I agree with what they did, but I also agree they could have made changes to the warrior class instead of doing what they did, giving the monks the tranq staff up the rear. Blame VI for screwing you guys, not the warriors for it.
Stryph Painscale
58th Revenant of Cabilis, Wielder of Greenmist
Unguilded
Ex-Scale, Lord of Pain

Edited by: Lord Stryph at: 10/13/02 8:26:27 am


https://web.archive.org/web/20020830035142/http://pub101.ezboard.com/fthetribunaldotorgfrm31.showAddReplyScreenFromWeb? index=5&topicID=26.topic

Kezmer
l33t board camper
Posts: 250
(6/2/02 7:11:34 am)
Reply
Re: Highest Taunting Weapons
LOL we need some weapon that procs that SHITTY ass lvl 9 SK disease cloud... my god that crapp lvl 9 spell out taunts anything.. heard they nerfed it but still


Kez
Kezmer Dahoss


https://web.archive.org/web/20020617052500/http://pub28.ezboard.com/fdrinal28133frm12.showMessage?topicID=792.topic&index=58

sob gyer
Knight Saber
Posts: 167
(5/25/02 7:10:45 pm)
Reply Re: ...
This is a serious question - wtf does "proxor" mean??? (Is it American slang for sumthin? I'm British...)

Vengyr Soulstorm 58 sk
Gyer Ogunstorm 54 druid
NINE CLOUDS

P.S. I agree with Yesnomaybeso, SKs suck. The bastards nerfed Disease Cloud.
*CRY*
Edited by: sob gyer at: 5/25/02 7:19:25 pm

[Ennewi]

https://project1999.com/forums/showthread.php?t=175

#1
Old 10-22-2009, 04:50 AM
Danth Danth is offline
Planar Protector


Join Date: Oct 2009
Posts: 3,381
Default Flash of Light
Thanks for the recent changes to Flash of Light. The blindness effect now works almost exactly as I remember.

What doesn't seem the same--and the reason I'm posting this thread (a continuation of the thread from the old forums)--is the aggro generated by this spell. Specifically, it feels too low. This is a spell which was second only to a Shadow Knight's Disease Cloud for massive threat generation, and not that far behind. Flash was so strong for threat that it remained useful into the PoP era.

On P1999, however, Flash of Light appears to generate less threat than a single cast of 'expulse undead' (my wife will pull aggro if we each cast one spell, me Flash, and her Expulse). Overall it seems to generate much less threat than I remember; in some cases I've spammed the spell half a dozen times in a row or more and still lost aggro to a groupmate. That experience in no way correlates to anything that I recall from my previous Paladins; only an SK spamming Disease Cloud could out-threat Flash. Flash should generate such substantial threat that a few casts (at most) ought to be sufficient to ensure aggro for the duration of a typical-length encounter even against nuke-happy wizards. In some cases, just a single cast was sufficient to pull off a Warrior who had been building aggro for significant time.

I'm afraid I can't provide hard numbers. Use of this spell was always something of a mysterious art, rather than science. I speak from my experience on many Paladin characters as a dedicated player of the class. I do not expect things to be 100% identical to Live on this server; if it could be made 'close enough' that'd be satisfactory to me.

Danth

[Ennewi]

https://web.archive.org/web/20020107144724fw_/http://www1.pos.to/~azrael/eq/shadowknight/shadowknight.htm

General information about ShadowKnight.

Data Comment Update
Weapons List of Abominable Weapons. 2001/09/03
Armors A list of cursed armor. 2001/08/22
Shields A list of bloody shields. 2001/06/09
Stats A list of hidden abilities. 2001/05/30
Spells A list of evil spells. 2001/06/12
Tips Comment Update
Shadow Knight What kind of class is SHD? 2001/07/01
Jobs Regarding the work of SHD in general. 2001/05/14
pull Regarding Pull, which is SHD's representative work. 2001/05/14
SoV Armor A comparison of the performance of the three SoV Armors. 2001/06/28

https://web.archive.org/web/20020113185342fw_/http://www1.pos.to/~azrael/eq/shadowknight/spells.htm

"Disease Cloud" is also a good spell for Taunt. Even at High Level, the specification frequency is high.

[Ennewi]

https://web.archive.org/web/20020111021518/http://pub6.ezboard.com/fluclin71335general.showMessage?index=30&topicID=5713.topic

Enyk
Newbie
Posts: 23
(12/24/01 7:14:10 am)
Re: Serious question about agro management (for tanks)
So, if Tash is a great taunt, and procs are a great taunt...does that mean the Jman's Walking Stick is a decent weapon then?

(Yeah, the 9/25 one that procs Tash.)

Just wondering...

-Enyk

EQFranko
Dragon chew toy
Posts: 470
(12/24/01 7:17:43 am)
Re: Serious question about agro management (for tanks)
SK = taunt.

Nice 1st level necro spell called disease cloud, drives mobs nuts for some reason.
El Guapo
Mayor of Rivervale
Endorean

Lord Have Mercy
He of the Nifty Name
Posts: 2739
(12/24/01 7:49:03 am)

Re: Serious question about agro management (for tanks)
because it debuffs thier natural regen.

Cyon S Fayte
knows that Warriors are Superior
Posts: 6
(4/9/02 12:10:25 pm)
Reply Re: re
I do understand that it is a minute buff if that. Just seeing that if it could generate agro once the mob has been engaged, items like the cobalt vam's or staff of shielding or things of that nature could improve our taunting ability.

I find it really hard to gain agro over a shadow knight that likes to dot the mobs to hell, and that damn disease cloud is hellish on agro. I am just trying to find ways to keep the mob on me and not the mob.

That Wizard quest that gains you a instant cold/fire debuff on the mob would be ideal for stealing agro. Just right click the hell out of it to keep the mob on you. Just got me thinking, thanks for the responses.
Cyon S'Fayte
| 30 Dark Elf Warrior - Worshipper of Rallos Zek |
| Tarew Marr Server - Member of Blades of Tyrra - Husband of Sari S'Fayte |


https://web.archive.org/web/20020413082824/http://pub35.ezboard.com/fthesafehouseloungegeneraldiscussion.showMessage?t opicID=22849.topic

DeAdvocate
Registered User
(3/16/02 11:58:38 pm)
Reply Re: lol, ever been voted out of a group?
SK can't pull aggro? What a crappy SK. I play one, I know how easy it is to get aggro- one Disease Cloud usually does the trick :P


https://web.archive.org/web/20030514003108/http://pub64.ezboard.com/ftavernheroesfrm4.showMessage?topicID=110.topic

Goolak
da Troll !!!
Posts: 111
(10/30/02 12:10:38 am)
Reply Re: Support your fellow monks.
Tanking is all about AC!
I was lvl 57 before i quit and my ac was about 1070 (which is actually too low). But the sk's main job is TAUNT!!! Disease Cloud best spell ever, its uber taunt on almost anymob (except in the PoF and I noticed it sucked againist the snake men in Luclin). Only problem with disease cloud is that it is a dot, so watch out if there are mezzers in the group on multiple pulls. But dont over taunt or you'll end up dead hehe (and let me tell you one sk can out taunt 5 lvl 60 warriors easy with the dots)

Goo

SK the best class ever, total self reliant class. What other class (beside necro) can invis, ivu, FD, dot, lifetap, levitate, snare, fear, deal out a 1k+ Harm touch and more!!

PS. TROLZZZ RULZZZZZ!


https://web.archive.org/web/20021120024404/http://pub14.ezboard.com/fthesteelwarriorthetavern.showMessage?topicID=1118 .topic

Catrekil
knows that Warriors are superior
Posts: 1
(8/25/02 6:23:41 am)
Reply .
I invade your board la~

I honestly think you are on something if you think sks will be replacing warriors as MTs. Who cares who can tank the random yard trash crap, warriors will *always* tank the boss mobs. A very large portion of the sk community complained when disease counter aggro was lowered (making disease cloud ass for taunt after 3 years) so verant gives us direct +hate spells to make up for it. Warriors have complained about not being able to hold aggro... well now you have a 20% aggro increase availiable.