AC/HP question (Ranger)

[danknug]

Does anyone know if there's a thread already or if there is a good resource about how AC mitigates dmg and subsequent hp loss?

For instance I am wondering if I was to switch out items with HPs for AC, such as an item with 55 hp for an item that doesn't have any hp on it, how much more AC would that item need for it to be worth it? One example below

https://wiki.project1999.com/Chokidai_Hide_Pauldrons

vs.

https://wiki.project1999.com/Imbued_Granite_Spauldors

For context this would be gearing up a ranger to solo/face tank with. TIA

[Naethyn]

AC only works if you have HP left.

[Jimjam]

AC only works if you have HP left.

Clearly not a purple club member.

[Encroaching Death]

The difference being 15 AC..

That's like a level 34 Cleric buff.

I'm too lazy to do the math on how much HP you'd get out of the spaulders.

But they're more expensive....so they must be better?

Come to me for more horrible advice.

[Solist]

AC does not work on rangers.

At all. Past about 120-130 worn AC the stat does zero, not a thing.

Source: I have two 60 rangers and have parsed extensively between 900 and 1350ish AC displayed.

This is unique to rangers.

[Jimjam]

Hard cap on worn with 0 return post cap?

[danknug]

Sounds like hp is more practical. That's what I was originally going for but then started to look into armorclass.

So a 900 ac / 2500 hp ranger would theoretically be better than a 1100 ac / 2000 hp ranger?

[Swish]

AC does not work on rangers.

At all. Past about 120-130 worn AC the stat does zero, not a thing.

Source: I have two 60 rangers and have parsed extensively between 900 and 1350ish AC displayed.

This is unique to rangers.

Is that classic or a "feature" of p99?

[Imago]

Ranger isn't going to tank anything 50+ well, especially Velious era. A BIS 60 Ranger *might* be able to tank open world Kunark dragons with the right healers. Otherwise, your best bet is speed bumping and praying your next tank can rip threat off you by the time Weapon Shield is done.

That being said, HP > AC. Don't know much about whether it's ineffective past a certain threshold, but I wouldn't count on any kind of AC changing a flurry proc from quadding 900s to 700s.

[Lune]

AC does not work on rangers.

At all. Past about 120-130 worn AC the stat does zero, not a thing.

Source: I have two 60 rangers and have parsed extensively between 900 and 1350ish AC displayed.

This is unique to rangers.

This. I used to build my rangers with oodles of AC but it never made a bit of difference (except equipping a shield), I'd just get max hit after max hit 50+ because of the low defense/dodge/parry/riposte caps.

Balance-wise, rangers should be as sturdy as monks, who should be significantly less sturdy than warriors, who should be slightly less sturdy than knights (who don't do any damage and can literally only fucking tank).

[Ripqozko]

Ranger isn't going to tank anything 50+ well, especially Velious era. A BIS 60 Ranger *might* be able to tank open world Kunark dragons with the right healers. Otherwise, your best bet is speed bumping and praying your next tank can rip threat off you by the time Weapon Shield is done.

That being said, HP > AC. Don't know much about whether it's ineffective past a certain threshold, but I wouldn't count on any kind of AC changing a flurry proc from quadding 900s to 700s.

thats not true, they make great tanks for VP for instance with good enough gear, ive tanked them several times.

edit: they can tank hot good with gear as well

[Allishia]

thats not true, they make great tanks for VP for instance with good enough gear, ive tanked them several times.

edit: they can tank hot good with gear as well

I feel like a ranger tanking hot would be awful, ac definitely helps a ton there/nod

[Ripqozko]

I feel like a ranger tanking hot would be awful, ac definitely helps a ton there/nod

idk ive done it fine, sorry you dont got ranger tank

[Uthgaard]

Is that classic or a "feature" of p99?

It should depend what you're testing it on. The appropriate level where you should see a difference on a ranger would be a place like Sebilis or Velks. If you're trying to tank Vindi with a ranger, no, the difference is too large to see the AC impact. Basically, you should see a notable difference when you're within similar windows of attack vs ac. And steep falloffs before and after (always getting hit vs never getting hit).

Think mobs trying to hit you way above your level, vs while levelling up, vs after you've levelled past them.

[Toxigen]

idk ive done it fine, sorry you dont got ranger tank

nobody sorry they dont got ranger tank in hot

hope this helps

[Ripqozko]

nobody sorry they dont got ranger tank in hot

hope this helps

sorry you got no guild to do it with, hope that helps.

[Lune]

A ranger is a tank that has the snap agro of a knight, and the damage somewhere not too far below a monk with gear being equal. (Obviously it's easier for a monk to get gear that dramatically increases their damage than a ranger, such as the monk epic).

In appropriate gear, this makes them ideal tanks for group content up to and including Seb. A warrior tank brings damage, agro, and sturdiness, but not snap agro. A knight brings snap agro and studiness, but not damage. A ranger brings snap agro and damage, but not sturdiness. A monk brings damage, middling sturdiness, and middling agro with no snap agro.

Rangers also make ideal leveling tanks 1-50.

Obviously you'll want the mobs to be slowed, and it's easy with rangers to slow right off the bat. It doesn't take a warrior or a knight to survive slowed mobs, and having ranger damage over knight damage over the course of a session is a dramatic increase in efficiency. I've been a ranger tank in many a good group like this on P99.

Just don't go trying to tank raid mobs, especially post-Kunark. Can you do it? Sure. Should you? Ehhh...

[Allishia]

A ranger is a tank that has the snap agro of a knight, and the damage somewhere not too far below a monk with gear being equal. (Obviously it's easier for a monk to get gear that dramatically increases their damage than a ranger, such as the monk epic).

In appropriate gear, this makes them ideal tanks for content up to and including Seb. A warrior tank brings damage, agro, and sturdiness, but not snap agro. A knight brings snap agro and studiness, but not damage. A ranger brings snap agro and damage, but not sturdiness. A monk brings damage, middling sturdiness, and middling agro with no snap agro.

Rangers also make ideal leveling tanks 1-50.

Obviously you'll want the mobs to be slowed, and it's easy with rangers to slow right off the bat. It doesn't take a warrior or a knight to survive slowed mobs, and having ranger damage over knight damage over the course of a session is a dramatic increase in efficiency. I've been a ranger tank in many a good group like this on P99.

Just don't go trying to tank raid mobs, especially post-Kunark.

Ya they are fine in group content especially with slowed mobs. But hot is different, I would hate being a cleric healing ranger through those spikes. I've seen semi raid geared warriors get hp chunked in hot /nod.

[Ripqozko]

Ya they are fine in group content especially with slowed mobs. But hot is different, I would hate being a cleric healing ranger through those spikes. I've seen semi raid geared warriors get hp chunked in hot /nod.

I've seen ya tank, I'd take the ranger

[surron]

the decompiled eqmac client (PoP) has these values...

Class Soft Cap
Warrior 430
Pal, Sk, Clr, Brd 403
Rng, Shm 375
Dru, Bst, Rog, Casters 350
Monk 315

(shields directly increase soft cap)

Over-cap Class Returns @ 60 Returns @ 65
Warrior 20% 33.3%
Knights 16.7% 25%
Bard 12.5% 16.7%
Rng, Bst 10% 14.3%
Mnk, Rog 5% 8.3%
Others 5% 5%


unknown whether or not p99 uses these values (probably not), made up their own, or got them from trilogy or titanium decompile

but to the person saying 120-130 AC is probably flat out wrong

[Tethler]

Just gear for hp. AC doesn't help you against aoe's but hp helps for everything.

[Imago]

idk ive done it fine, sorry you dont got ranger tank

Magelo to your ranger or I don't buy it

[Ripqozko]

https://wiki.project1999.com/Magelo_Blue:Ripqozko

Not 100% perfect but close enough
usually tank with aary shield and vyemm whip
basically a knight

edit: im not near as geared as some rangers, i havent been in a "raid" guild in years and its an alt but its not bad gear

[Jimjam]

https://wiki.project1999.com/Magelo_Blue:Ripqozko

Not 100% perfect but close enough
usually tank with aary shield and vyemm whip
basically a knight

edit: im not near as geared as some rangers, i havent been in a "raid" guild in years and its an alt but its not bad gear

My blue ranger is geared roughly similarly / slightly worse as yours - HoT / LTK tier armour with epics and clicky haste. Never had issues tanking high end group stuff like Fungi King or low end raid stuff like HoT / Wexit trash (provided I bothered to maintain my buffs!)

These days those kind of raids are well oiled machines and it is rare enough to need a ranger tank that weaponshield is usually ready to use and smooth things off further.

[Lune]

https://wiki.project1999.com/Magelo_Blue:Ripqozko

Not 100% perfect but close enough
usually tank with aary shield and vyemm whip
basically a knight

edit: im not near as geared as some rangers, i havent been in a "raid" guild in years and its an alt but its not bad gear

Drool, always wanted gear like that but could never stand to raid, not even long enough to get sky cloak.

Spend 28 hours camping some bauble? Sign me up. Raid sky for a single night? Jump off that fucking cloud. Never understood it.

[Jimjam]

Drool, always wanted gear like that but could never stand to raid, not even long enough to get sky cloak.

Spend 28 hours camping some bauble? Sign me up. Raid sky for a single night? Jump off that fucking cloud. Never understood it.

Took me around 6 months to even see a harpy tongue drop! Apparently, for better or worse, PoSky is MQ enabled now though.

Just totted up my ranger's worn AC - it is 273. I really hope there are returns over 130!

[surron]

Took me around 6 months to even see a harpy tongue drop! Apparently, for better or worse, PoSky is MQ enabled now though.

Just totted up my ranger's worn AC - it is 273. I really hope there are returns over 130!

Of course there are returns, doesn't matter how far past the soft cap you are, there is no hard cap on AC.

Take off a piece of equipment, for example, say its 10AC bracer and view actually how much your AC goes down. If it's 10 (and the item doesn't have AGI on it) then you know you're not at the soft cap.

[Jimjam]

Of course there are returns, doesn't matter how far past the soft cap you are, there is no hard cap on AC.

Take off a piece of equipment, for example, say its 10AC bracer and view actually how much your AC goes down. If it's 10 (and the item doesn't have AGI on it) then you know you're not at the soft cap.

Doesn’t this method presume the reported figures for AC are thensame as the numbers used in equations?

[Ripqozko]

i think lot of rangers gear different, i prioritize resists>hp>ac. but you naturally get lot of each just gearing. i tend to wear doze dagger range vs aow bow for instance.

[surron]

Doesn’t this method presume the reported figures for AC are thensame as the numbers used in equations?

well that's a good point... on takp it does because the server uses what the client expects.

p99 uses titanium so i doubt p99 server matches what titanium has, so probably not accurate the way i described

[Snaggles]

If a ranger can tank slowed blue cons with torp it can do a great job. Likewise if it can peel and tank a red con for 20 seconds it did its job.

Mine usually runs around with around 200MR and 2200 hps. I mainly just try to max MR with GMR with max Str using Focus. I have a few Hp items to swap out if I’m having to tank for small group stuff but it’s not preferred. I’m sure with better gear that would change…to a degree.

[Ripqozko]

If a ranger can tank slowed blue cons with torp it can do a great job. Likewise if it can peel and tank a red con for 20 seconds it did its job.

Mine usually runs around with around 200MR and 2200 hps. I mainly just try to max MR with GMR with max Str using Focus. I have a few Hp items to swap out if I’m having to tank for small group stuff but it’s not preferred. I’m sure with better gear that would change…to a degree.

Gear does make a difference I buff to 4.9k hp and there is def better geared then me.

[Snaggles]

Gear does make a difference I buff to 4.9k hp and there is def better geared then me.

Yea for sure. I top out at about 4k. I’d take another 1k in a heart-beat and will slowly work on adding raid gear. Most the EC buys trade hps for MR so it’s a lateral move unless I’m swapping depending on the fight.

I guess that’s the reality though. The better your stuff the less bag slots you need filled. BiS or at least top tier is loaded with hps, ac, and other stats. In the low or mid game you have to pick a path or carry a lot of extra junk.

[Ripqozko]

Yea for sure. I top out at about 4k. I’d take another 1k in a heart-beat and will slowly work on adding raid gear. Most the EC buys trade hps for MR so it’s a lateral move unless I’m swapping depending on the fight.

I guess that’s the reality though. The better your stuff the less bag slots you need filled. BiS or at least top tier is loaded with hps, ac, and other stats. In the low or mid game you have to pick a path or carry a lot of extra junk.

Yup, I could take more hp if I reduced resi since I normally wear MR ring and ring 9 I'm losing like 80 hp there but not being in VQ, riot limits that, my belt also is bad. Rangers Def can break 5k easy. Even I can with gear swaps.

[wagorf]

idk ive done it fine, sorry you dont got ranger tank

a 55 war with kunark armor can tank better than your shit ranger

[Lune]

a 55 war with kunark armor can tank better than your shit ranger

I would certainly hope so...

[Ripqozko]

a 55 war with kunark armor can tank better than your shit ranger

Sorry you are butt hurt, consider logging off. Hope that helps.

[Evia]

Spend 28 hours camping some bauble? Sign me up. Raid sky for a single night? Jump off that fucking cloud. Never understood it.

Yes!! Glad to see someone else feel the same way. Plane of Sky is the worst! I love the concept, but it's just not fun. The corpsing the keys is another pita. I'd rather do just about anything else in EQ, including some 28hr+ camp lol.

[wagorf]

Sorry you are butt hurt, consider logging off. Hope that helps.

sorry you are butt hurt over facts

[Ripqozko]

sorry you are butt hurt over facts

No matter the amount you raid, you will never compete when it matters or have warder loot. hope that helps.

[Duik]

Just call it Warder Under Da Bridge.

[Solist]

Yeah there is a lot of people who haven’t parsed posting nonsense.

Go get on a 1350 displayed AC ranger and do 4 hours of seb in the same camp. Do the same on a 1000ac displayed ranger or just take a bunch of gear off like vulak boots/doze ear/dagarn legs (as I was so focused on AC…).They take identical damage.

I’ve repeated this on a half dozen different mobs and levels. Cliff golems, protector of zek, paebala warrior, all the usual “high ish” mobs. Raid content is laughably bad. In general xp and slightly harder than XP content a 1100ac monk takes 30% less damage than a 1350ac ranger (or thereabouts). The class is broken.

Shamans with identical AC take 15 or 20% less damage than rangers give or take.

Now if you stack HP and MR. You’re amazing still. VP, Fear, Zland? All solid options you can be effective without outright just being a bump. Think I run around 340-345ish MR maxed out so I can take a tash, and have blue flower dispelled and still cap (for fear)… but man why bother, get on a better class and be useful.

[Jimjam]

Shamans with identical AC take 15 or 20% less damage than rangers give or take.

This is the point that has really piqued my interest. Are you comparing average damage per hit (mitigation) or overall damage (including avoidance)?

I would have thought the avoidance benefit of +20 defence would have really shifted things in to the ranger’s benefit.

Perhaps this is actually part of the explanation. Say both ranger and shaman display 1000 AC. A larger portion of the ranger’s displayed AC is avoidance, meaning they have less remaining displayed ac to represent mitigation. Furthermore, perhaps the shaman is using more buff AC than the ranger, which is more effective than worn AC? Oh, or the shaman’s shield ac is going uncapped/double counted (i don’t believe either of those mechanics are classic).

I’ve noticed many rangers don’t bother with their thorncoat line of buffs, even though it represents a large portion of their mitigation.


Okay, no longer discussing the quote and on to something else. From what I understand melee/priests used a similar AC calculator in velious and should have equivalent worn AC hardcaps. Only silk casters had a different equation. If we can control for buff ac rangers should be mitigating similarly / better than a shaman off their worn ac late velious (depending on whether the +20 defence is in or not).

What am I missing? Is there something needing dev attention?

[Solist]

Not all silk casters, on p99, get the same returns for AC.

This isn't everquest. This is an emulator of the memory some guy has of everquest

[Jimjam]

For anyone interested in how AC supposedly did work in classic (so should work here) there are quite a few threads.

I posted the apparent Velious caps here (https://www.project1999.com/forums/showthread.php?p=2488253#post2488253) citing this (https://www.project1999.com/forums/showthread.php?t=48312) thread as reference.

For future searches:


Worn ac hard cap

worn ac soft cap

The post in this thread suggesting shaman takes less damage than ranger indicates the OP of this thread (https://www.project1999.com/forums/showthread.php?p=2486991#post2486991) may have the source (https://reborninfire.proboards.com/thread/37) closest to what p99 is running on.

Looks like worn AC should be hardcapped in Velious. No returns after cap at all. That said, the AC you get from class / skill / buff bonuses added to that hard capped worn ac was soft capped for melee with a fairly small return (other classes had a hard cap on these too).

I aim for 289 worn ac on my toons cos I'm not a cheat :)

[Jimjam]

Yeah there is a lot of people who haven’t parsed posting nonsense.

Go get on a 1350 displayed AC ranger and do 4 hours of seb in the same camp. Do the same on a 1000ac displayed ranger or just take a bunch of gear off like vulak boots/doze ear/dagarn legs (as I was so focused on AC…).They take identical damage.


A 1000 AC displayed ranger may well be at the supposed 289 worn AC hardcap, depending on how neglected their AGi is. Even taking off a bunch of gear the Vulak ranger will be way over hardcap. Given this it makes sense that a 1350AC ranger wouldn't mitigate any better. Further more, I imagine these mobs attack values are swamped by AC close to the 'hardcap' anyway. Most of EQ's mobs (outside of expansion raiding) were balanced around banded armour tier AC, right?

[wagorf]

No matter the amount you raid, you will never compete when it matters or have warder loot. hope that helps.

no matter how many times you post, you are still wrong

[Snaggles]

Cap or no cap the fact remains AC is a horrible stat to prioritize (aka at a detriment of others stats) for a ranger, or really any class. Sure if you are comparing two items of similar other stats/hps and one has more ac…get the higher AC one. If you are a tunnel shopper not weighing BiS the gear is heavily skewed one way or another.

In the original post way back the example was Chokidai Pauldrons or Imbued Granite Spaulders. Rather than see it as an AC vs Hp debate what about the 10sv all? I have a some Chokidai’s but not on my ranger, he uses IGS’s constantly. Worn MR is just always good to have and having 200+ FR/CR really takes the steam out of partially resistable AE’s like in ToV which can save you hundreds of hps a fight and many thousands over the course of a raid. Also in this example on blue the cost difference is like 25x so why wouldn’t someone have both??

Any 60 can tank most grind group blues or bump npc in the game for about 20 seconds. Mine floats around with crap hps and only dies on raids if I get aggro when I don’t want it. Nothing is going to save you in that situation besides praying on a lucky warrior weapon proc.

[Ripqozko]

Cap or no cap the fact remains AC is a horrible stat to prioritize (aka at a detriment of others stats) for a ranger, or really any class. Sure if you are comparing two items of similar other stats/hps and one has more ac…get the higher AC one. If you are a tunnel shopper not weighing BiS the gear is heavily skewed one way or another.

In the original post way back the example was Chokidai Pauldrons or Imbued Granite Spaulders. Rather than see it as an AC vs Hp debate what about the 10sv all? I have a some Chokidai’s but not on my ranger, he uses IGS’s constantly. Worn MR is just always good to have and having 200+ FR/CR really takes the steam out of partially resistable AE’s like in ToV which can save you hundreds of hps a fight and many thousands over the course of a raid. Also in this example on blue the cost difference is like 25x so why wouldn’t someone have both??

Any 60 can tank most grind group blues or bump npc in the game for about 20 seconds. Mine floats around with crap hps and only dies on raids if I get aggro when I don’t want it. Nothing is going to save you in that situation besides praying on a lucky warrior weapon proc.

You are correct, and the +resis will save you more hp, then +hp items to a certain extent as well, depending on what your base resi was to begin with. Hot for instance, FR up to a certain point will allow you to partial or outright resist some of the wurm aoe (cold harder since lot of cold in velious has -100 mod). this will save you hundreds of hp per attack over the course of a mob.

[Jimjam]

Resists are super handy when you want to help your sub 60 pals in xp content. Resting roots, snares, slows and cripples is a big deal in those situations.

[Snaggles]

Resists are super handy when you want to help your sub 60 pals in xp content. Resting roots, snares, slows and cripples is a big deal in those situations.

Nothing quite like getting caught with a blind in your mid 50’s pulling in Trak’s Teeth, lol.