High AC on A Rogue?

[Robersonroger38]

Does having higher ac on a rogue even do anything?
I wanna say I read on safe house that it helped the hits go lower, but this is P99

any info is good!

Yes it’s for soloing on a squishy rogue, I afk a lot LoL

[Encroaching Death]

It won't make you a tank, unfortunately.

You'll just die later rather than sooner.

Rogues are terribly squishy.

Like too squishy to even body pull for a group.

[Robersonroger38]

Thanks!

Was just checking to see if dexterity would be better for my blood points to proc more,rather then getting more AC to make hits a little bit lower Lol

[Cecily]

High AC definitely makes a difference with group or solo content. Can't recommend CC gaunts / boots highly enough. And you can absolutely pull / tank on a rogue.

[Jimjam]

Rangers are commonly used as group tanks, but rogue's defence caps far exceed those of a ranger.

With appropriate gear (see Cecily's suggestions - doesn't have to be terribly expensive) you should be able to take hits almost like a warrior (but admittedly run out of hp much faster).

'Worst' thing in a group with 3 rogues; the tank has to go afk for 15 minutes and no one steps up to fill the job cos everyone has 255 str but no defence skill practiced or worn ac.

[Gustoo]

I’ve never understood how defense and offense and weapon caps apply to actual damage output and mitigation. It seems almost unrelated or like AC has variable impact

[Encroaching Death]

And you can absolutely pull / tank on a rogue.

I call shenanigans.

Maybe in poop sock gear.

But your average Rogue will melt when trying to tank.

[Keebz]

Rogues have the same defense, parry and riposte skill caps as Monk/Warrior and the same HP per STA as a Monk. They are perfectly capable of pulling and tanking.

[WokeCat]

Rogues have the same defense, parry and riposte skill caps as Monk/Warrior and the same HP per STA as a Monk. They are perfectly capable of pulling and tanking.

IDK how accurate this statement is. Like I've never seen a Rogue who can nearly as well as a Monk. I don't play either classes, but as a healer, sometimes I actually have an easier time healing a monk than I do actual tanks because their mitigation seems really high and they have mend.

[Solist]

Caps arent the only story. Tables we cant see exist. Rogues get AC returns. Rangers do not.

Stack as much AC as you can on a rogue for sure, huge survivability difference when levelling.

[bobjonesp99]

I’ve never understood how defense and offense and weapon caps apply to actual damage output and mitigation. It seems almost unrelated or like AC has variable impact

ive never seen a detailed description that really fleshed this out but you can use the link below to get a rough idea:

https://wiki.project1999.com/Game_Mechanics#Melee_Combat_and_Damage

offense is used to adjust the damage modifier that is multiplied by the weapon damage. higher offense will result in higher max hits and higher potential dps. i dont have any forumlas for it but afaik, weapon caps affect your chance to hit. so if you have lower weapon skills then you have a lower chance to hit the mob.

[Encroaching Death]

Rogues have the same defense, parry and riposte skill caps as Monk/Warrior and the same HP per STA as a Monk. They are perfectly capable of pulling and tanking.

Please post a video of a Rogue tanking so I can laugh at them while they crumble into dust.

[Robersonroger38]

Lol I guess I’ll have to start looking for some Decent AC armor peaces for rogue to see how it does getting hit by moBs, versus higher dexterity trying to get procs with blood point.
My hazepanther peaces don’t have much ac, really just high on dexterity on them.

[Snaggles]

To tank you need levels, defensive skills, hps, ac. Pretty much in that order. Aggro is more of a fluid concept in terms of weighting compared to the main "getting hit" part but obviously more is always better if you want to efficiently tank.

The issue is most rogues dont optimize for hps and AC. If they have a bunch of BIS, sure it comes with the territory. Rogues tank take hits just fine at this point on blue, their defensive skill points (not "defense" which is an AC modifier) are higher than rangers which are higher than bards. They actually have higher Defense Skill than knights, much higher dodge, lower parry, and no riposte skill.

A rogue will generally have less hps and less aggro than a knight, on par hps with more AC than a ranger but with less aggro. They also do a huge amount of damage from the back so even if you have a shaman in the group with torp it's almost always better for the sham to slow/torp and tank the thing to get it killed quicker than let the rogue tank it while putting out 120 damage minimum backstabs from the front.

In short, yea a lot of rogues and rangers have huge hp and ac pools. These are geared at the top of the current expansion. A rogue is basically a warrior compared to a ranger which is a knight in that situation. Comparing either to a warrior or knight with a ton of EC gear isn't fair. Their "apples to apples" comparison is far outclassing them in that same area for good reason (tanking is their job, both in DNA and gear optimization).

[Encroaching Death]

Lol I guess I’ll have to start looking for some Decent AC armor peaces for rogue to see how it does getting hit by moBs, versus higher dexterity trying to get procs with blood point.
My hazepanther peaces don’t have much ac, really just high on dexterity on them.

Are you doing some sort of solo experiment?

Typically Rogues try to avoid proccing weapons because it steals aggro away from the tank.

[Robersonroger38]

Are you doing some sort of solo experiment?

Typically Rogues try to avoid proccing weapons because it steals aggro away from the tank.

Yea I’ve solo’d to 52 on green at the moment, afk a lot so grouping would just boot me for so much afk Lol

[Encroaching Death]

Are you using a Fungi Tunic or anything?

[Robersonroger38]

Are you using a Fungi Tunic or anything?

I have iksar regen plate and epic and 2x blood points, can kill 1 mob then med

Still not sure which is better epic with 1 blood point, or 2 blood points with 22% haste gloves

[Encroaching Death]

You're killing dark blue mobs?

You'll get 20% more haste with your epic, so probably that's most likely better.

You could get one of those swords that proc Snare and then using Intimidation to fear kite mobs.

[Robersonroger38]

You're killing dark blue mobs?

You'll get 20% more haste with your epic, so probably that's most likely better.

You could get one of those swords that proc Snare and then using Intimidation to fear kite mobs.

Yeah I can kill a dark blue, have to med afterwards.

I have a been fear kiting , whenever it procs LoL, RNG sucks at times though.

Have a serrated dirk, haven’t really thought about using it though, since have j boots I can stay on top of the feared mob.

[Trelaboon]

Rogues are terribly squishy.

Like too squishy to even body pull for a group.

I tanked for my Seb group last night. Totally doable, though not ideal if a slower is present lol

[Evia]

Idk my rogue is in scrub ec tunnel gear with an epic, but I can't tank for shit. I've got about 12 seconds before I take a dirt nap.

[Encroaching Death]

Yeah same.

But I've also geared myself for a high STR build, because you know, we're supposed to do damage.

When someone asks me to pull and tank, they're essentially asking me to commit suicide.

[fortior]

IDK how accurate this statement is. Like I've never seen a Rogue who can nearly as well as a Monk. I don't play either classes, but as a healer, sometimes I actually have an easier time healing a monk than I do actual tanks because their mitigation seems really high and they have mend.

this is because every monk gears to solo, tank for a duo partner, or pull for a group. because that's what they have to do 99% of the time. meanwhile rogues gear to do the big dps.

[Jimjam]

IDK how accurate this statement is. Like I've never seen a Rogue who can nearly as well as a Monk. I don't play either classes, but as a healer, sometimes I actually have an easier time healing a monk than I do actual tanks because their mitigation seems really high and they have mend.

Block is a better skill than it’s counterparts.

[Crede]

https://i.imgur.com/uFAob.png

Block is broke along with monk defense in general in this era.

[Jimjam]

Really interesting results there. Particularly interesting to see the the ranger having a better average hit than the monk, despite a far lower AC. I wonder whether that is a result of the ranger having poor avoidance but decent access to AC buffs? That certainly is reflected by the Accuracy scores!

I'm also interested to know the races of the SKs. Are either iksar?

[Crede]

Really interesting results there. Particularly interesting to see the the ranger having a better average hit than the monk, despite a far lower AC. I wonder whether that is a result of the ranger having poor avoidance but decent access to AC buffs? That certainly is reflected by the Accuracy scores!

I'm also interested to know the races of the SKs. Are either iksar?

I would think the ranger being 3 levels higher as well as having access to ac buffs might contribute but I don’t know anything else about those parses I don’t remember where the original post was on this.

[Allishia]

I would stack HP and resist on rogue...if you are tanking you are definitely doing it wrong /nod.

[7thGate]

I really like AC as a stat in general. Rogues can get tanky enough for group content, especially if you're being healed by a Torp Shaman instead of a Cleric. Rogue HP sucks so does not benefit as much from CHeals, but defensive skills are equal to Warriors and we get an extra AC boost from AGI that helps offset the higher Warrior Softcap AC returns. If you use poison you can also have immediate snap aggro on every engage which can be good.

Most of the time it makes more sense for someone else to tank so the Rogue can backstab, but I have found having high AC to be nice for some niche stuff like duoing puppets in POM, irregular plate house groups with no real tank or the time I took a group of Rogues to SG and we just stealthed around the zone assassinating singles. Our main tank was a WToV geared Rogue, and she did great at surviving while the rest of us burned down targets. We had a factioned cleric patch her up between kills so we could keep rolling.

Its less good for raid boss fights, where maybe you survive an extra round of attacks if you draw aggro or something, but probably doesn't make a big difference.

[Cecily]

I would stack HP and resist on rogue...if you are tanking you are definitely doing it wrong /nod.
Thank you for weighing in with the warrior perspective. /rolleyes /nod

[Cecily]

I really like AC as a stat in general. Rogues can get tanky enough for group content, especially if you're being healed by a Torp Shaman instead of a Cleric. Rogue HP sucks so does not benefit as much from CHeals, but defensive skills are equal to Warriors and we get an extra AC boost from AGI that helps offset the higher Warrior Softcap AC returns. If you use poison you can also have immediate snap aggro on every engage which can be good.

Most of the time it makes more sense for someone else to tank so the Rogue can backstab, but I have found having high AC to be nice for some niche stuff like duoing puppets in POM, irregular plate house groups with no real tank or the time I took a group of Rogues to SG and we just stealthed around the zone assassinating singles. Our main tank was a WToV geared Rogue, and she did great at surviving while the rest of us burned down targets. We had a factioned cleric patch her up between kills so we could keep rolling.

Its less good for raid boss fights, where maybe you survive an extra round of attacks if you draw aggro or something, but probably doesn't make a big difference.

This is why you stack AC. It expands what you're capable of doing, of which tanking is (un)surprisingly something rogues do pretty well. Or you could be a Haze Panther DPS bot with no utility beyond stabbing things like /nod suggests. That sounds kinda boring to me.

[Jimjam]

Each level takes a decent chunk of time, so even while actively avoiding getting swung at it seems unlikely to avoid capping defence.

Are many rogues failing to cap their defence skills by level?

[Encroaching Death]

Each level takes a decent chunk of time, so even while actively avoiding getting swung at it seems unlikely to avoid capping defence.

Are many rogues failing to cap their defence skills by level?

My defense is capped.

I still get rocked in 2 seconds if I try to tank.

Then again, I have a STR focused build.

Rogues should have higher Dodge (same as Monk)

[DeathsSilkyMist]

I really like AC as a stat in general. Rogues can get tanky enough for group content, especially if you're being healed by a Torp Shaman instead of a Cleric.

If you are being healed by a Torpor Shaman, you are probably tanking something the Shaman could tank themselves, and Shamans have lower defense skills than a Rogue. Anything that can be Torpor/Slow tanked is tankable by basically any class, probably even tankable by cloth casters. Enchanters have Rune, Wizards have a Rune equivalent, Necros have lifetaps and can FD if they get too low. Mages would probably be the squishiest, but with damage shield/water pet, the fight would go a bit faster at least.

This means that is not really a good metric for how well Rogues can tank. That being said, Rogues do get two defensive discs, and have good defense skills, as you say. So they will indeed tank better than Shamans or cloth casters. Unfortunately it isn't really good enough to justify them tanking over DPSing. While I haven't tested it myself, I doubt a Rogues discs could open the possibility of tanking something that other classes couldn't tank while a Torpor Shaman is healing/slowing. Anything that is out-DPSing Shaman Slow and Torpor is going to need a proper tank.

[Jimjam]

Torpor ganks a rogue’s aggro generation too. Not exactly a synergy for tanking with rogues.

[Allishia]

This is why you stack AC. It expands what you're capable of doing, of which tanking is (un)surprisingly something rogues do pretty well. Or you could be a Haze Panther DPS bot with no utility beyond stabbing things like /nod suggests. That sounds kinda boring to me.

Rofl sorry you think rogues are tanks. Maybe try a monk? They can actually tank well and still do DPS unlike rogue who can't dps worth a crap while tanking...and don't tell me about the back n forth spinning mobs, that's a pain in the butt and only works half the time.

[Encroaching Death]

Rogues shouldn't tank.

Rogues shouldn't pull.

Rogues shouldn't solo.

[Allishia]

Pretty much main goal of rogue is to avoid agro and stack HP and resist to survive AOE spells /nod

[Encroaching Death]

Pretty much main goal of rogue is to avoid agro and stack HP and resist to survive AOE spells /nod

But first: Do Damage

Or second: Do Damage

Because you can't do damage unless you're alive.

What came first? The damage or the survival

[Allishia]

But first: Do Damage

Or second: Do Damage

Because you can't do damage unless you're alive.

What came first? The damage or the survival

Lmao wait for assist call, dps, and don't die /nod..
Gear for resist cause almost everything that matters has some type of AOE spell...and HP so incase you don't resist the spell, you have enough HP to not gank agro from low HP.../whew...

Note, any class can tank group content cause most of it is slow able anyway, still better off to let anyone but the rogue tank because they can't do DPS while tanking defeating the whole point of their class aside from dragging corpses and moving pets /nod.

[Ripqozko]

Lmao wait for assist call, dps, and don't die /nod..
Gear for resist cause almost everything that matters has some type of AOE spell...and HP so incase you don't resist the spell, you have enough HP to not gank agro from low HP.../whew...

Note, any class can tank group content cause most of it is slow able anyway, still better off to let anyone but the rogue tank because they can't do DPS while tanking defeating the whole point of their class aside from dragging corpses and moving pets /nod.

Imagine a world where you don't raid, kinda like when you were in the shit tier guild BDA. Hope that helps.

[Allishia]

Imagine a world where you don't raid, kinda like when you were in the shit tier guild BDA. Hope that helps.

Hey I raided in bda!! We did hate raids, trak that I won a donal bp from! Did VP too when tmo was banned for something and ofc skyday Friday am and pm woohoo :p

[Cecily]

Rofl sorry you think rogues are tanks. Maybe try a monk? They can actually tank well and still do DPS unlike rogue who can't dps worth a crap while tanking...and don't tell me about the back n forth spinning mobs, that's a pain in the butt and only works half the time.
Why are you in this thread? /nod This type of inflexible thinking is pervasive in MMO communities and it's gross. Get the fuck out.

[Cecily]

Rogues shouldn't tank.

Rogues shouldn't pull.

Rogues shouldn't solo.
It's all these oughts that rigid thinking people will repeat to you over and over again. You are more than a DPS bot. You are a puller. A soloist. And if you build your character up, a tank. These roles are definitely more challenging on this class, but it primarily comes down to being a good player who strives to get the most out of their character.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

It's all these oughts that rigid thinking people will repeat to you over and over again. You are more than a DPS bot. You are a puller. A soloist. And if you build your character up, a tank. These roles are definitely more challenging on this class, but it primarily comes down to being a good player who strives to get the most out of their character.

People aren't saying you can't tank, pull, or solo. You can play however you want. Again, basically any class can tank if you have a Torpor Shaman.

There are two problems. The first problem is this is an MMO, so the opinion of your party members matters, unless you want to be a dick. If people want you to play the DPS role as a Rogue, you should take that into consideration.

The second problem is in 6 man group, the Rogue pulling/tanking is usually the worst choice, unless you have a non-standard group, like 6 rogues or something. The server population is still healthy, so it usually isn't hard to find a puller/tank AND a DPS (Rogue).

[Cecily]

You're also unhelpful in that you're weighing in on a class you don't play. Yes people are saying that, which I base off of playing a rogue since Y2K in addition to comments from this thread. Your problems are also non-issues. 6-man groups are horribly inefficient and a bad way to play. Torpor shamans are the tank. It's a moot point. Most people in life, and here by extension, are idiots who weigh in on areas they don't have any experience with. But please continue giving post-epic weapon advice without understanding the fundamentals of that decision.


Higher AC allows rogues to tank when necessary. Solo more efficiently. Pull agro and pull mobs with less consequences. It's a good stat to gear for.

[Ripqozko]

Add in that kael armor looks better ontop of the ac gain.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

You're also unhelpful in that you're weighing in on a class you don't play. Yes people are saying that, which I base off of playing a rogue since Y2K in addition to comments from this thread. Your problems are also non-issues. 6-man groups are horribly inefficient and a bad way to play. Torpor shamans are the tank. It's a moot point. Most people in life, and here by extension, are idiots who weigh in on areas they don't have any experience with. But please continue giving post-epic weapon advice without understanding the fundamentals of that decision.


Higher AC allows rogues to tank when necessary. Solo more efficiently. Pull agro and pull mobs with less consequences. It's a good stat to gear for.

I wasn't saying people should play 6 man groups, or that they were efficient. I was saying groups only allow up to 6 members, so your role actually matters. If group sizes were like 12 or higher, you would have plenty of redundancy, which would allow you to do abnormal things like Rogue tanking. Since most groups are 3-4 players, you can't really afford to have a Rogue tanking. They would fill the DPS slot, because an actual Tank would fill the Tank slot better, and the group size is too small to justify the Rogue tanking.

You don't need to play a class to understand the basic nature of the class. Rogues operate the same way in terms of HP, AC, and Resistances when it comes to tanking. Rogues don't have some kind of special stat no other class gets. They get two decent defensive discs, but with a 60/30 min cooldowns and short durations, they are not useable often.

Rogues are a DPS class that need to be behind the mob to get the most out of their DPS. That is a fact.

Obviously more AC helps with soloing, but Rogues are one of the worst solo classes. That is a fact.

I don't think anybody here is saying "don't get AC if you want to solo". They are simply trying to point out to OP that getting really high AC isn't going to suddenly turn a Rogue into a strong solo class, or a strong tank. This is a fact.

Let's steel-man the argument and say Rogues can tank as well as an SK/Paladin, because they get better Dodge/Parry/Riposte numbers, which makes up for their lower HP and AC cap. I don't believe this is the case, but we will go with it for now. A Rogue is still significantly reducing their DPS doing this, and have no special agro generation mechanics (not even taunt). Best case scenario you are a crappier Warrior without Taunt and Discs. The unfortunate truth is once you get to that level, other classes can also step in and tank lol. Priests and Cloth casters would be able to generate agro better.

[Cecily]

Oh ok.

[Encroaching Death]

If I EVER catch a Rogue pulling or soloing, I drop everything I'm doing and be line it straight to the infidel and bully them off the server.

I WILL NOT tolerate that activity in this holy house of purity.

[Ripqozko]

If you say fact enough obviously its a fact, Fact.

[Jimjam]

Rogues operate the same way in terms of HP, AC, and Resistances when it comes to tanking. Rogues don't have some kind of special stat no other class gets.

Rogues are meant to get a super secret tanking boost starting in the midlevels as a reward for ‘high’ (treble figure) agility. Not sure whether it is implemented here. Even if it is it wouldn’t be large. I just wanted to pedant a mo.

[Snaggles]

With a finite selection of gear there are stat trade-offs even in the tier of the loot.

Have BiS? Congrats on a lot of AC
Dont have BiS? Gotta pick what you are favoring.

In general AC is just a bad stat. Half the way rogues take damage isn’t physical so it’s not effective. If you are ignoring str for attack and svs to survive spells hps is a better thing to favor.

If you want to solo, fine. Pick easy targets, bum buffs, or get into poison as a skill. Don’t relay on your AC build. That’s almost as dumb as monks doing less dps for a “stun lock DW build”.

[Encroaching Death]

https://i.ibb.co/bQNkv65/dps.jpg

[Jimjam]

That’s almost as dumb as monks doing less dps for a “stun lock DW build”.

I’m a sucker for these kind of dumb builds. I love polished granite tomahawks, axe of slayers, vehement rage swords and runed blades for levelling warriors.

Is there an equivalent dumb rogue build philosophy to the stunning monk or runic warrior?

[Encroaching Death]

Is there an equivalent dumb rogue build philosophy to the stunning monk or runic warrior?

The Fear Kiting Rogue

[Ripqozko]

With a finite selection of gear there are stat trade-offs even in the tier of the loot.

Have BiS? Congrats on a lot of AC
Dont have BiS? Gotta pick what you are favoring.

In general AC is just a bad stat. Half the way rogues take damage isn’t physical so it’s not effective. If you are ignoring str for attack and svs to survive spells hps is a better thing to favor.

If you want to solo, fine. Pick easy targets, bum buffs, or get into poison as a skill. Don’t relay on your AC build. That’s almost as dumb as monks doing less dps for a “stun lock DW build”.

It's not hard to gear anymore, goto open kael raid and do almost nothing for a set of high ac armor

[Allishia]

Why are you in this thread? /nod This type of inflexible thinking is pervasive in MMO communities and it's gross. Get the fuck out.

Lmao I have a raid geared rogue with 1200ish ac, I wouldn't waste people's time trying to tank on her, bumping a mob with disc till ch chain is rolling on the tank sure, but that's about it, you are a silly goose :p

[Cecily]

Oh ok.

[Ripqozko]

Lmao I have a raid geared rogue with 1200ish ac, I wouldn't waste people's time trying to tank on her, bumping a mob with disc till ch chain is rolling on the tank sure, but that's about it, you are a silly goose :p

I've seen you try to pull, I wouldn't want ya to either.

[Cecily]

Like and subscribe for more female roleplaying tips /nod

[Encroaching Death]

http://forgifs.com/gallery/d/222394-2/Girl-gamer-problems.gif

[Snaggles]

There is nothing wrong with a rogue tanking easy targets (mine had a willsapper on live) if you don’t mind cutting their dps in half. This game isn’t difficult but there are less optimal ways to solve any problem. Other dps and tanks lose a fraction compared to attacking from the side/back. It’s just the logical pick to not give up backstabs.

You just have to pick stats (I would favor raw AC at the bottom, above dec and agil) or carry a ton of extra gear for a rainy day. If you’re killing low blues with max str, high hps and have some AC gear go for it. I just don’t know what kind of difference it’s going to make.

[Encroaching Death]

There is nothing wrong with a rogue tanking

https://i.ibb.co/bQNkv65/dps.jpg

[Allishia]

I've seen you try to pull, I wouldn't want ya to either.

Lmao what? I never said I was a puller...unless AOE group, I can pull lots of mobs at the same time np /nod

[Robersonroger38]

Almost 56! Soloing Seafurys, using spinebreak on the dark blue ones, can get them to 50% before poison wears off , running 201 strength, 203 dex , aC 910 , 1848HP, epic/Bloodpoint the blood point procs 2-3 every now and then per fight , sometimes none at all guess that’s just RNG for ya though !

Almost mastered the strafe Backstab usually can hit it probably 65% of time.

[Encroaching Death]

Almost 56! Soloing Seafurys, using spinebreak on the dark blue ones, can get them to 50% before poison wears off , running 201 strength, 203 dex , aC 910 , 1848HP, epic/Bloodpoint the blood point procs 2-3 every now and then per fight , sometimes none at all guess that’s just RNG for ya though !

Almost mastered the strafe Backstab usually can hit it probably 65% of time.

You spending 10p per mob?

[Snaggles]

You spending 10p per mob?

It’s just under 7p per the wiki math.

You only need one blue spawn to level; a 44 will take you to 60. 6 min 40 second repop. Lets say 8 kills an hour = 56p/hr so you can solo a rogue to 60.

If you can do 4-5% hr that’s just under 1100p for 59-60.

Edit: 7 kills an hour is prob more accurate. I’m not doing that math again though.

[7thGate]

Its also possible to craft the poison vials, which cuts the cost a lot. I used to bulk buy zombie skins from low level ALS characters for this.

[Robersonroger38]

You spending 10p per mob?

Not sure on the price haven’t checked it, because plat isn’t a issues what so ever to make now days. Think I made the plat back and some profit from the gems there dropping

I know grouping is much safer exp, but ide rather have a small challenge , plus I afk way to much Lol

[Jimjam]

Not sure on the price haven’t checked it, because plat isn’t a issues what so ever to make now days. Think I made the plat back and some profit from the gems there dropping

I know grouping is much safer exp, but ide rather have a small challenge , plus I afk way to much Lol

I totally feel this. I’m levelling a warrior on red through 59 at bnb/ldc (solb) cos it is easy to pop in for 15 mins or be very afk while playing. Some times I’m spending 50pp on consumables vs a mob unlikely to drop 2pp. It’s worth it cos the mobs not needing a cheeky heal pot balance it out … and even just passing through solA to visit the LS vendors can result in a mountain of pp.

[Samoht]

But first: Do Damage

Or second: Do Damage

Because you can't do damage unless you're alive.

What came first? The damage or the survival

Nah, the first rule is a dead rogue does no dps. So first: survive. Second: continue to survive.

Any dps you do is just secondary to surviving.

[Toxigen]

Nah, the first rule is a dead rogue does no dps. So first: survive. Second: continue to survive.

Any dps you do is just secondary to surviving.

Not only that but the rogue that stays alive gets to corpse drag and save the day.

Never pop out of stealth until the pull looks under control.

[Cen]

Rogues theoretically should be able to take hits way better then a Ranger with their much higher caps on defensive skills.

This is one of those things that thematically *seem* wrong, but on paper for all intents and purposes the way they designed this games stats, Rangers are squishier, defensively speaking. (Without getting into HP/Stamina that falls into gearsets)

[Encroaching Death]

Nah, the first rule is a dead rogue does no dps. So first: survive. Second: continue to survive.

Any dps you do is just secondary to surviving.

Well that's a given for any class. Since it goes without saying, we skip to the next step:

Do damage.

Otherwise your Rogue is going to stand there without his auto attack turned on.

[Samoht]

Well that's a given for any class. Since it goes without saying, we skip to the next step:

Do damage.

Otherwise your Rogue is going to stand there without his auto attack turned on.

This is moronic. Sometimes you have to not do damage to survive. If you ignore surviving and only DO DAMAGE DO DAMAGE DO DAMAGE, you're going to fail at surviving.

[greatdane]

That's like saying that any recipe should begin with the acquisition of a stove, and if any recipe doesn't include that, it's a bad recipe.

[Snaggles]

Rogues theoretically should be able to take hits way better then a Ranger with their much higher caps on defensive skills.

This is one of those things that thematically *seem* wrong, but on paper for all intents and purposes the way they designed this games stats, Rangers are squishier, defensively speaking. (Without getting into HP/Stamina that falls into gearsets)

The issue is that a rogues dps goes up like 40% if they can backstab. For that reason and for lack of aggro spells a rogue-tank is a bit silly. It’s just a fairly durable chain class with poor stat allocation.

A ranger (or shaman) tanking over a rogue isn’t ideal. It if you want to increase kill speed it’s the way to go.

[Tnair]

One of my favorite 6-man groups ever was me (rogue), three other rogues, an enchanter and a bard, doing stables in CoM. We just swapped aggro around in a circle of hasted backstabs. It was glorious, and we had no trouble making it work. The fun of a 20-yr old game is not meta-based Holy Trinity min-maxing (it's already been done. All of it.) but exploring the non-meta fringes of possibility. Rogues fulfilling a tank role struggle with snap aggro, low health, and loss of dps. That's all. Good/bad/can/can't is all situational.

[Cen]

The issue is that a rogues dps goes up like 40% if they can backstab. For that reason and for lack of aggro spells a rogue-tank is a bit silly. It’s just a fairly durable chain class with poor stat allocation.

A ranger (or shaman) tanking over a rogue isn’t ideal. It if you want to increase kill speed it’s the way to go.

I should clarify, I don't think a rogue should tank, its just there was the debate a few pages back that rogues die faster then rangers when they get aggro. I'm not so sure that is true.

[Snaggles]

I should clarify, I don't think a rogue should tank, its just there was the debate a few pages back that rogues die faster then rangers when they get aggro. I'm not so sure that is true.

Oh it’s not true. Rogues are way more durable than rangers I’ll be the first to agree. It’s just lost opportunity if they are doing 120 frontal “backstabs”.

I’d rather see a cleric load flash of light or chain root than heal a tanking rogue. Not that they can’t, it’s just they shouldn’t have to.

[Solist]

I should clarify, I don't think a rogue should tank, its just there was the debate a few pages back that rogues die faster then rangers when they get aggro. I'm not so sure that is true.

Rangers take more damage by quite a large margin.