Is a Mage + Shaman a Good duo?

[long.liam]

Has anyone done this duo before? I was in a group on my shaman in velks with 2 mages and we were melting everything. It got me thinking about the possiblity of Mage + Shaman Duo with a friend. Is this a decent duo makeup?

[Jimjam]

Shaman makes a good duo.

[Vexenu]

It's very strong and underrated. It's basically Monk/Shaman without the Monk pulls. As long as you don't need a ton of CC you'll do well with it. Regen cast on the pet, slowed mob and innate pet Regen means the Mage pet barely even needs healing. Mage and Shaman both casting their clickie nukes make it even more disgusting.

[unleashedd]

what mage click nukes?

[Snaggles]

what mage click nukes?

Burnt Wood Staff is a 333 fire bolt 13.5 sec click = 25dps
Velk Boots is shock of swords, 600dd like 17 sec click = 35dps

Back to the question though, yea mage and sham is a great duo. You are relying on root CC’s and slows though. Not horrible though with two pets to send in for the initial root-tab work. A mage with clicky robe and legs can also DS and Haste making for pretty cheap upkeep. It’s prob not worth healing them unless the sham has Torp.

The 57 earth is an absolute brute. Shams are well, shams. At 60 the duo just gets stronger. Doing tough stuff with two (or more) pets of you lose one the mob won’t summon either so the sham pet is very useful even if doing a fraction of the dps.

[Toxigen]

It’s an above average duo that can easily level to 60. Just going to fall off at 60 because it’s basically the shaman solo with some extra dps. Doesn’t really open up any more camps.

The pets just aren’t durable enough to justify over monk / war / enc (pets).

If you’re looking to level a mage, it would certainly be a big help to have a shaman static duo instead of going it alone though!

[magnetaress]

yeah its pretty lete mage + ench + clr is best tho its insane what a fully buffed mage pet can do with complete heal and u dont have to worry about charm or u can optionally charm and have literally two mega insane over 10k hp pets lawl

mage DS is sick and kinda makes up for lower pet dps than other stuff in exp situations

[Snaggles]

A top hitting focused water pet is no slouch. It’s not as impressive on like Vindi due to the level gap (tho, still surprisingly decent compared to mid-tier melees) but on non-raid targets they really rip. Add the DS dps and any clicky item and a mage can sustain very solid numbers with a low mana spend.

As for using the pet to tank. Prob not the best strategy. A 60 PC melee is going to take hits and survive better with torp than a 40’something pet. Unless you are comparing like a poorly geared ranger or bard to the epic pet, I guess in that case it’s pretty tanky.

https://i.ibb.co/RHHqBKm/2-C7392-E9-7-AE8-442-B-9-A9-B-73-CF73-B54-C09.png
(Focused 60 hitting water with deadwood’s. Monk was 60 and I believe with an IFS)

[Tigerstyle Wutangfist]

It’s a good duo that can lazyquest some targets other duos (mainly without a shaman) could not succeed.

However you will find they do not complement each other. The mages best weapon is DS (epic pet or otherwise) which is negated heavily by slow; while at the same time the primary heal (torpor) severely lowers DPS.

[Toxigen]

It’s a good duo that can lazyquest some targets other duos (mainly without a shaman) could not succeed.

However you will find they do not complement each other. The mages best weapon is DS (epic pet or otherwise) which is negated heavily by slow; while at the same time the primary heal (torpor) severely lowers DPS.

Pretty sure this is a leveling question - and its a mediocre to decent option. At 60 for cash camps, a shaman would prefer any melee / enc / necro.

Say if a group of friends wanted a coth mage and did not have a shaman in their stable of chars yet - perfect hypothetical to justify the duo.

If we're talking best leveling duo partners for mages, id rank shaman below enchanter / necro / bard and about equal to a decently played charming druid.

The shaman vs druid question is an interesting one...stacking DS on two charm pets sounds pretty sweet. Would likely edge out shaman in leveling speed.

[Snaggles]

I’ve used a sham DS pot while farming Kennel Master. Minus the first couple rounds (malo then Turgurs) it parsed at 8dps. That’s still something but nothing like the mage pet. At 60 on blues a mage should be able to do about 100dps with a burnt wood staff, DS and Pet. So on par or exceeding most dps without using extra mana for burst dps.

I get if a sham wants to slow and heal a tank instead I totally get that. Soloing a shaman without an epic to 60 is pretty painful though so if you have a buddy who happens to be a mage it’s more than a viable route.

[Barik]

It’s a good duo that can lazyquest some targets other duos (mainly without a shaman) could not succeed.

However you will find they do not complement each other. The mages best weapon is DS (epic pet or otherwise) which is negated heavily by slow; while at the same time the primary heal (torpor) severely lowers DPS.


This guy gets it, cleric is the best pairing for mage for pure leveling etc. But can't go wrong with shaman for sure, play what you love but if we're talking duo for a mage with a min/max in mind cleric is the best.

[Degalian]

Any +1 makes a mage better.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Any duo is going to do better than solo. Shaman + Mage basically means you have your Shaman Slow Tanking while the Shaman + Mage Pets beat on the mob from behind. The Mage will nuke via mana and/or clickies.

Mages have no real CC, so extra DPS is about all you are going to get from this combo, as people have already mentioned above. Shamans can already summon food/drink (albeit slowly), and bandages can be summoned through https://wiki.project1999.com/Embalmers_Skinning_Knife if the Shaman wants to bind wound. Mod Rods have a bit better ratio than cannibalize, but realistically the Mage is going to need the mana themselves for nuking, and summoning a bunch of Mod Rods takes time. The Shaman is getting no benefit from the Mod Rods. Muzzle of Mardu isn't going to give the Shaman pet a huge boost in DPS either.

This duo is like a Shaman/Rogue duo, but without the benefits of lockpick + sneak.

[Crede]

Any duo is going to do better than solo. Shaman + Mage basically means you have your Shaman Slow Tanking while the Shaman + Mage Pets beat on the mob from behind. The Mage will nuke via mana and/or clickies.

Mages have no real CC, so extra DPS is about all you are going to get from this combo, as people have already mentioned above. Shamans can already summon food/drink (albeit slowly), and bandages can be summoned through https://wiki.project1999.com/Embalmers_Skinning_Knife if the Shaman wants to bind wound. Mod Rods have a bit better ratio than cannibalize, but realistically the Mage is going to need the mana themselves for nuking, and summoning a bunch of Mod Rods takes time. The Shaman is getting no benefit from the Mod Rods. Muzzle of Mardu isn't going to give the Shaman pet a huge boost in DPS either.

This duo is like a Shaman/Rogue duo, but without the benefits of lockpick + sneak.

To say this duo is like a shaman/rogue duo without lockpick/sneak is simply inaccurate.

A mage will bring similar dps(superior dps until the rogue really starts to acquire gear) but also coth, burst dps, damage shield, a beefy pet tank, and pet chaining to the duo which can be extremely powerful to assist the shaman. To be able to chain summon a pet with over 3k hp will take a lot of pressure off the shaman trying to stay alive healing if needed, whereas a rogue will only contribute dps with an occasional sneak/pick lock. It would also come in handy for certain mobs like phinny where torpor won’t be effective. I’d much rather have a mage over rogue for these reasons if forming a static duo, you can always easily level a rogue bot to 50 to log in to open doors if needed or to drag corpses.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

To say this duo is like a shaman/rogue duo without lockpock/sneak is simply inaccurate.

A mage will bring similar dps but also coth, burst dps, damage shield, a beefy pet tank, and pet chaining to the duo which can be extremely powerful to assist the shaman. To be able to chain summon a pet with over 3k hp will take a lot of pressure off the shaman trying to stay alive healing if needed, whereas a rogue will only contribute dps with an occasional sneak/pick lock. It would also come in handy for certain mobs like phinny where torpor won’t be effective. I’d much rather have a mage over rogue for these reasons if forming a static duo, you can always easily level a rogue bot to 50 to log in to open doors if needed or to drag corpses.

It's not.

1. You aren't going to be tanking with the pet, so "beefy pet" is irrelevant.
2. CoTH is going to be very niche in terms of actually using it in a duo. You are going to be hunting something very specific. Sneak + Lockpick is going to be more useful in general. Every duo is going to be missing something if you go down that road.
4. A Mage is only contributing DPS in a Mage/Shaman duo as well. Damage shields are DPS, backstab is burst DPS. Numbers-wise a rogue has higher average DPS than a Mage, and Mages can burst better when spending a lot of mana.

[Crede]

It's not.

1. You aren't going to be tanking with the pet, so "beefy pet" is irrelevant.
2. CoTH is going to be very niche in terms of actually using it in a duo. You are going to be hunting something very specific. Sneak + Lockpick is going to be more useful in general. Every duo is going to be missing something if you go down that road.
4. A Mage is only contributing DPS in a Mage/Shaman duo as well. Damage shields are DPS, backstab is burst DPS. Numbers-wise a rogue has higher average DPS than a Mage, and Mages can burst better when spending a lot of mana.

Sneak/lock pick are irrelevant and highly situational. As I said, if you want to access the 1-2 extra camps that require lock pick, then just level a rogue to 50 once the shaman gets higher. Had sneak pulling not been nerfed, I might have agreed with you.

A rogue simply does not offer enough over a mage in a duo. A rogue is more ideal in a 4 man competition where you already have multiple other roles covered.

[Toxigen]

welp there goes the neighborhood

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Sneak/lock pick are irrelevant and highly situational. Had sneak pulling not been nerfed, I might have agreed with you.

A rogue simply does not offer enough over a mage in a duo. A rogue is more ideal in a 4 man competition where you already have multiple other roles covered.

Both a Mage and a Rogue are just DPS in a Shaman duo. The Mage doesn't really have anything else in their toolkit a Shaman needs. It's simply a question of do you prefer occasional burst with med breaks (Mage), or consistent higher melee DPS (Rogue).

Sneak/lockpick is going to be used more than CoTH, unless you are doing something very specific. The only time where this may not be the case is if both players are super experienced, and never die or need to use sneak for scouting purposes.

You are correct a naked Mage is better than a naked Rogue because Mages have better DPS naked. So it would be tempting to pick a Mage over a Rogue when playing untwinked characters.

[Jimjam]

Mage is the better duo cos you can go to dumb places with a mage and just gate out when you’re done (pre mallet).

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Mage is the better duo cos you can go to dumb places with a mage and just gate out when you’re done (pre mallet).

Gate potions and WC caps are useable at low levels pre mallet. Again, I agree that a Mage is a tempting pick if both players are planning on doing an untwinked run. If both players are twinked, I'd pick Rogue over Mage.

[Jimjam]

Yea lets drink a 300-1000pp consumable to get out of dalnir on our level 30 toons?

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Yea lets drink a 300-1000pp consumable to get out of dalnir on our level 30 toons?

If you are trying to level cheaply and quickly, you aren't going in to Dalnir to level. That is something more experienced players tend to do when they are bored of the normal leveling spots. Usually those players will be able to afford twinking and WC caps for emergencies.

There are plenty of duo spots where you don't need gate to leave. If you want to stay in Dalnir for a long period of time, you can just camp in there instead of gating out every time. Dying at that level range isn't a big deal. XP comes quickly.

[Toxigen]

DSM will argue anything.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

DSM will argue anything.

Normal discussion = "argue anything" in Toxigen's mind. But that is pretty normal behavior for you. You'll never miss the opportunity to increase your post count by saying something you think is clever. Sadly it's rarely (if ever) clever :)

[Jimjam]

If you are trying to level cheaply and quickly, you aren't going in to Dalnir to level. That is something more experienced players tend to do when they are bored of the normal leveling spots. Usually those players will be able to afford twinking and WC caps for emergencies.

There are plenty of duo spots where you don't need gate to leave. If you want to stay in Dalnir for a long period of time, you can just camp in there instead of gating out every time. Dying at that level range isn't a big deal. XP comes quickly.

I was more thinking of adventures off the beaten track than quickly and efficiently. Thats the advantage of statics is you can arrange to go to zones which aren’t considered quick or efficient and enjoy them on their own merits.

The disadvantage of such spots is they are unfamiliar and can often leave you cut short, lost or stuck and mage simply has a better escape rope imo.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

I was more thinking of adventures off the beaten track than quickly and efficiently. Thats the advantage of statics is you can arrange to go to zones which aren’t considered quick or efficient and enjoy them on their own merits.

The disadvantage of such spots is they are unfamiliar and can often leave you cut short, lost or stuck and mage simply has a better escape rope imo.

I do agree with you, Gate is a very handy spell. If both the Shaman and the duo partner are brand new to P99, Mage is a good pick for the class's simplicity. You aren't going to be twinked in this situation.

My point was simply that if you are short on money (can't afford WC cap or Gate Potions), then you probably aren't going into zones like Dalnir, unless you prefer the challenge over leveling speed. New players would probably stick to the more common leveling areas, since those are fresh experiences anyway. If you aren't a new player, you can probably afford the WC cap or Gate Potion for the occasional emergency.

As Toxigen and others stated earlier in the thread, Mage is basically just a DPS class in this duo. I was simply expanding upon those statements, which is why I was comparing the Mage to a Rogue.

If the Mage Epic was easy to get, I would pick Mage over Rogue.

A level 60 Mage without Epic is doing 60ish DPS with a Water Pet, + 35 DPS from boots of Bladecalling. With the Shaman slowing, your Damage Shield DPS is only about 5 DPS, so you are doing 100 manaless DPS at 60.

A level 60 Rogue with Epic and a good offhand is doing around 133 manaless DPS. On average the Rogue is better, with the Mage being able to burst for more DPS occasionally, at the cost of needing med breaks here and there.

A level Mage 60 with Epic is doing 90ish DPS with Epic pet, +35 DPS from boots of Bladecalling. The Mage would still be using their castable Damage Shield on the Shaman, so you won't get any boost in DPS from the Epic Pet's superior Damage Shield. An Epic Mage would be doing 130 manaless DPS on average, which is basically on par with the Rogue. At that point the Mage is better, since they have the same average manaless DPS with the option to burst.

[Balimon]

I think you're discounting the ability to let the pets tank and let the shaman spam JBB, I don't think you'd want the shaman to tank 100% of the time. If you have the rogue tanking it's not efficient at all.

To the OP, I don't have much to add, people have thoroughly explained it all. Mage pairs well with any caster, some better than others! If it that duo sounds fun than go for it.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

I think you're discounting the ability to let the pets tank and let the shaman spam JBB, I don't think you'd want the shaman to tank 100% of the time. If you have the rogue tanking it's not efficient at all.

To the OP, I don't have much to add, people have thoroughly explained it all. Mage pairs well with any caster, some better than others! If it that duo sounds fun than go for it.

A shaman Slow Tanking correctly is spamming JBB already. Slowed mobs are not going to interrupt JBB very often. I Slow Tank with JBB a lot. In this duo the Shaman should be tanking 100% of the time.

A Mage's DPS is at it's strongest when they don't need to have the pet tank. This is because you aren't wasting time/mana on chain summoning pets. 100% of your mana and time is spend on Nuking via clickies or mana nukes, which maximizes DPS.

[Toxigen]

jesus christ

[Crede]

A shaman Slow Tanking correctly is spamming JBB already. Slowed mobs are not going to interrupt JBB very often. I Slow Tank with JBB a lot. In this duo the Shaman should be tanking 100% of the time.

A Mage's DPS is at it's strongest when they don't need to have the pet tank. This is because you aren't wasting time/mana on chain summoning pets. 100% of your mana and time is spend on Nuking via clickies or mana nukes, which maximizes DPS.

In no scenario except your imagination is a shaman tanking 100% of the time. Have fun holding aggro on a 100+ dps rogue when disease aggro is broken and root breaks happening with jbb spam. We’re not even at high MR mobs yet either.

To discount the addition of a mage who can chain summon 3k hp+ pets with ease shows your lack of vision for high performant duos. Mixing in roots slow torpor jbb patch heals on rogue it’s just not gonna fly all of the time and there will be situations where it’s better to let the shaman sit back and dps with dots. There’s really nothing you gain with a rogue duo except maybe some extra static dps when the rogue is geared to the teeth. None of it I see worth giving up a mage for. Rogues fill one role in a duo, dps. Mages are more than that in a duo. This is why rogues start to shine when you get more people in group such as a tank and superior healing. If we are talking about the best 4-6 man group, I would probably include rogue in there.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

In no scenario except your imagination is a shaman tanking 100% of the time. Have fun holding aggro on a 100+ dps rogue when disease aggro is broken and root breaks happening with jbb spam. We’re not even at high MR mobs yet either.

To discount the addition of a mage who can chain summon 3k hp+ pets with ease shows your lack of vision for high performant duos. Mixing in roots slow torpor jbb patch heals on rogue it’s just not gonna fly all of the time. There’s really nothing you gain with a rogue duo except maybe some extra static dps when the rogue is geared to the teeth. None of it I see worth giving up a mage for. Rogues fill one role in a duo, dps. Mages are more than that in a duo. This is why rogues start to shine when you get more people in group such as a tank and superior healing. If we are talking about the best 4-6 man group, I would probably include rogue in there.

It's quite easy to hold agro with a Rogue. With root whomever is closer to the mob gets the agro. If you are having problems with root breaks there are two solutions: 1. Cast JBB less, the Rogue is doing more average DPS than the Mage anyway. 2. Use Blind instead of Root. Most encounters in a duo situation shouldn't last more than a minute or so, so using Blind 2-3 times is going to end up costing roughly the same amount of mana as using 1-2 roots. You can also use low level slows to build agro.

For your point about chain summoning, let's just take a look at a Mage/Shaman duo that is in their mid 50s, so no Torpor.

Here is a video of a 56 mage, so we can get some DPS numbers https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jhm9K-ePJAk

Vocarate: Earth costs 300 mana, takes 10 seconds to cast, and another 15 seconds to click your burnout pants. That means your pet costs 380 mana, because you are losing 4 ticks of meditate. Every time your pet dies, you must recast Cadeau of Flame for 155 mana + losing 1 tick of meditate for 175 mana. The HP ratio of this chain summoned pet is 555 mana to 2800 HP, which is a ratio of 1 mana to 5 HP.

A Shaman's Chloroblast spell is a ratio of 1 to 2.2 in terms of mana to HP. On paper it sounds like a Mage chain summoning pets should be more effective in terms of mitigation.

However, you are not taking into account DPS loss. In the video I showed above, it takes 86 seconds for the mage to kill Oosa Shadowthumper who has 4000 HP. This means the mage is doing a total of 46 DPS, roughly speaking. The damage shield did about 1100 damage, and the mage did about 200 with scars of sigil. This means the pet's DPS is 31 DPS. A backstabbing Greater Vocaration: Water is doing 60ish DPS. I don't have the DPS numbers for Vocarate: Water, but let's say its doing roughly 20 more DPS than the Earth Pet. If you throw in a single Scars of Sigil due to not being required to chain summon pets, that is another 5 DPS on an 86 second fight.

With the Shaman tanking instead of the pet, you are almost doubling your damage, which means the encounter is going twice as fast. If you would normally take 1000 damage per encounter, you are now taking more like 600 damage per encounter. You would add that HP to the ratio of Chloroblast, which makes Chloroblast act as a 175 mana for 785 heal, which is a ratio of 1 mana to 4.5 HP. While this is 0.5 HP less than chain summoning, you are also clearing mobs a lot faster, which means you have more time to recover per cycle.

Chain summoning pets and having the pet tank has quite a few costs that people generally do not take into account. If the Shaman has Torpor and/or Fungi Tunic + Fungi Staff, their mitigation easily surpasses a chained summoned pet when taking into account DPS loss.

Finally, the point about high resist mobs is kind of weird. A Shaman duo would not be fighting mobs that are immune to slow, that wouldn't really be productive as it goes against one of the strengths of this duo: slowing.

[Guesty07]

As a 60 shaman, I'd take the mage every time.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

I apologize, my previous message was a bit confusing in terms of the explanation. Here is a simplified version of the maths. All of these scenarios are fighting https://wiki.project1999.com/Oosa_Shadowthumper :

Solo Mage level 56:

1x cast of Vocarate Earth (Pet) = 320 Mana (including 1x Meditation tick loss)

1x cast of Burnout Pants = 60 Mana (including 3x Meditation tick loss)

1x cast of Cadeau of Flame = 175 Mana (including 1x Meditation tick loss)

1x cast of Scars of Sigil = 175 Mana (No Meditation tick loss due to cast speed)

Pet = 31 DPS
Damage Shield = 12 DPS
Scars of Sigil = 5 DPS

Totals: 730 Mana for 48 DPS and pet takes 3000 damage.

Mage/Shaman Duo, both level 56, Pet is Tanking:

1x cast of Togor's Insects = 175 Mana (This spell allows the pet to survive 3 encounters instead of 1)

0.33x cast of Vocarate Earth (Pet) = 107 Mana

0.33x cast of Burnout Pants = 20 Mana

0.33x cast of Cadeau of Flame = 58 Mana

1x cast of Scars of Sigil = 175 Mana (No Meditation tick loss due to cast speed)

Pet = 31 DPS
Damage Shield = 4 DPS (damage is lowered due to slow)
Scars of Sigil = 5 DPS

Totals: 535 Mana for 40 DPS and pet takes 1000 damage

Mage/Shaman Duo, both level 56, Shaman is Tanking:

1x cast of Togor's Insects = 175 Mana

2x cast of Chloroblast = 350 Mana

0x cast of Vocarate Water = 0 Mana

0.2x cast of Cadeau of Flame = 35 Mana (The Shaman has the DS, so you don't need to cast it as often)

1x cast of Scars of Sigil = 175 Mana (No Meditation tick loss due to cast speed)

Pet DPS = 47 (Water pet should do at least 16 more DPS than Earth pet)
Damage Shield = 4 DPS (damage is lowered due to slow)
Scars of Sigil = 5 DPS

Totals: 735 Mana for 56 DPS and shaman takes 0 damage (the increased DPS is reducing damage taken as well as the heals)

Ratio of DPS to Mana while Shaman is tanking: 13.125

Ratio of DPS to Mana while Pet is tanking: 13.375

Conclusion: The Tanking Shaman adds 16 DPS to the duo, while maintaining the same DPS to Mana ratio.

At the end of the day, the mana to DPS ratio between a Mage chain summoning and a Shaman face tanking is basically the same, but with the Shaman tanking you are killing mobs faster.

If the Shaman has Torpor and/or Fungi Staff + Fungi Tunic, having the Shaman Tank will surpass chain summoning pets in the DPS to Mana ratio.

[Vexenu]

> 2 pet classes for effortless, sustainable DPS
> both with very nice clickie nukes to boot
> shaman can slow so pet is barely getting hit
> pet has innate double Fungi regen + regrowth
> pets literally chainsawing through mobs barely taking damage
> mage and shaman getting some of easiest and most chill XP ever
> DSM somehow manages to fuck this up

[Snaggles]

In a world where a sham is 60 with torp and a mage is 60 with the water pet it's pretty common sense to let the sham face-tank. If it's really nasty maybe throw both pets at it while you slow and debuff before taking over. You're probably leaving 25dps on the table just letting the mage water (no backstab) and wolf pet tank, or more if you're torping them. The fact that a PC will always take aggro over a pet while in range makes it much easier for a sham than chain casting flash of light.

A focused water pet at 60 does really good dps on blues. Like a high 50's rogue unhasted or most EC monks self hasted. The DS on the sham isnt great since the slow but its something, probably like 8dps or so. The mage can keep up 25dps mana free with a burnt wood staff or burst much higher as needed.

In the lower levels id prob slow the mob and throw the earth and wolf pet and heal as needed. The 57 earth is extremely tanky, especially on something slowed.

Chain summoning is a thing, I guess. You can still do it. It's just kinda gross and is more an emergency move than a solo method. Again, with torp at least. Once you get a really good pet its hard not to want to keep it since the spread is noticeable. The 57+ pets all regen 30hp/tick too so if you are slowing early even on fairly tough stuff they hold up just fine.

Note: I probably missed something but just what I would do. A mage and sham lacks some pulling options and CC but they are solid classes to pair in the right situations like killing geos.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

> 2 pet classes for effortless, sustainable DPS
> both with very nice clickie nukes to boot
> shaman can slow so pet is barely getting hit
> pet has innate double Fungi regen + regrowth
> pets literally chainsawing through mobs barely taking damage
> mage and shaman getting some of easiest and most chill XP ever
> DSM somehow manages to fuck this up

I would be happy to see your numbers, instead of a pathetic attempt at an insult.

When Shamans have Fungi Tunic + Fungi Staff and/or Torpor, they are going to produce the superior mana to DPS ratios while face tanking. This is because Shamans have more resources to spend than other casters due to regen + cannibalize. It's better to put the larger mana burden on the Shaman, to reduce downtime on casters who can only meditate.

If a Shaman has none of those things, they still manage to equal a Mage chain summoning when it comes to DPS to mana ratios, but you kill the mobs faster.

One argument you could make for using chain summoning pets in this duo is when both characters are basically naked (no clickies or other good gear). When both the Shaman and Mage meditate while doing the bare minimum of casting (slow + root + /pet attack), you can get a more consistent cadence of monster kills, albeit at a slower pace. A lot of camps people like to do only have around 4 mobs though, so kill speed is generally preferred to maximize spawns per session.

However, you need to remember that the pets are killing the mobs quickly. My 2x chloroblast number was assuming worst case each battle.

In a world where a sham is 60 with torp and a mage is 60 with the water pet it's pretty common sense to let the sham face-tank. If it's really nasty maybe throw both pets at it while you slow and debuff before taking over. You're probably leaving 25dps on the table just letting the mage water (no backstab) and wolf pet tank, or more if you're torping them. The fact that a PC will always take aggro over a pet while in range makes it much easier for a sham than chain casting flash of light.

A focused water pet at 60 does really good dps on blues. Like a high 50's rogue unhasted or most EC monks self hasted. The DS on the sham isnt great since the slow but its something, probably like 8dps or so. The mage can keep up 25dps mana free with a burnt wood staff or burst much higher as needed.

In the lower levels id prob slow the mob and throw the earth and wolf pet and heal as needed. The 57 earth is extremely tanky, especially on something slowed.

Chain summoning is a thing, I guess. You can still do it. It's just kinda gross and is more an emergency move than a solo method. Again, with torp at least. Once you get a really good pet its hard not to want to keep it since the spread is noticeable. The 57+ pets all regen 30hp/tick too so if you are slowing early even on fairly tough stuff they hold up just fine.

Note: I probably missed something but just what I would do. A mage and sham lacks some pulling options and CC but they are solid classes to pair in the right situations like killing geos.

Agreed, except for having the earth pet tank in the 50s. As you said earlier, you are leaving DPS on the table. But if someone can bring real data I would be happy to say I am wrong. Basically it's a numbers game between kill speed and mana regen rates.

Really early levels (40 or under), it doesn't really matter what you do. You will tear through the mobs.

[Jimjam]

If the shaman has torpor you could probably use a lesser slow to allow more hits / ds damage vs trash? Idk that is speculation on my part.

[Toxigen]

c u real soon (in 20 pages)

[Snaggles]

Basically a mage is just amplifying what a shaman would do solo. What a 60 and 60 would do is much different than a 50’something.

While giving a water pet backstab opportunity is technically better (if you have torp) it’s also more work than pulling with a slow, sending pets in, dotting, and waiting for the lazy xp.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

If the shaman has torpor you could probably use a lesser slow to allow more hits / ds damage vs trash? Idk that is speculation on my part.

Depends on the trash. If you are farming goblin skins in Droga, that would probably work.

For harder trash the few DPS you gain may not be worth the extra damage you take.

[Toxigen]

mage mo' betta

[Balimon]

I apologize, my previous message was a bit confusing in terms of the explanation. Here is a simplified version of the maths. All of these scenarios are fighting https://wiki.project1999.com/Oosa_Shadowthumper :

Solo Mage level 56:

1x cast of Vocarate Earth (Pet) = 320 Mana (including 1x Meditation tick loss)

1x cast of Burnout Pants = 60 Mana (including 3x Meditation tick loss)

1x cast of Cadeau of Flame = 175 Mana (including 1x Meditation tick loss)

1x cast of Scars of Sigil = 175 Mana (No Meditation tick loss due to cast speed)

Pet = 31 DPS
Damage Shield = 12 DPS
Scars of Sigil = 5 DPS

Totals: 730 Mana for 48 DPS and pet takes 3000 damage.

Mage/Shaman Duo, both level 56, Pet is Tanking:

1x cast of Togor's Insects = 175 Mana (This spell allows the pet to survive 3 encounters instead of 1)

0.33x cast of Vocarate Earth (Pet) = 107 Mana

0.33x cast of Burnout Pants = 20 Mana

0.33x cast of Cadeau of Flame = 58 Mana

1x cast of Scars of Sigil = 175 Mana (No Meditation tick loss due to cast speed)

Pet = 31 DPS
Damage Shield = 4 DPS (damage is lowered due to slow)
Scars of Sigil = 5 DPS

Totals: 535 Mana for 40 DPS and pet takes 1000 damage

Mage/Shaman Duo, both level 56, Shaman is Tanking:

1x cast of Togor's Insects = 175 Mana

2x cast of Chloroblast = 350 Mana

0x cast of Vocarate Water = 0 Mana

0.2x cast of Cadeau of Flame = 35 Mana (The Shaman has the DS, so you don't need to cast it as often)

1x cast of Scars of Sigil = 175 Mana (No Meditation tick loss due to cast speed)

Pet DPS = 47 (Water pet should do at least 16 more DPS than Earth pet)
Damage Shield = 4 DPS (damage is lowered due to slow)
Scars of Sigil = 5 DPS

Totals: 735 Mana for 56 DPS and shaman takes 0 damage (the increased DPS is reducing damage taken as well as the heals)

Ratio of DPS to Mana while Shaman is tanking: 13.125

Ratio of DPS to Mana while Pet is tanking: 13.375

Conclusion: The Tanking Shaman adds 16 DPS to the duo, while maintaining the same DPS to Mana ratio.

At the end of the day, the mana to DPS ratio between a Mage chain summoning and a Shaman face tanking is basically the same, but with the Shaman tanking you are killing mobs faster.

If the Shaman has Torpor and/or Fungi Staff + Fungi Tunic, having the Shaman Tank will surpass chain summoning pets in the DPS to Mana ratio.

DSM your math is wrong on the mage/shaman duo where the pet is tanking. Why is there one cast of Scars of Sigil? There's no need at all, a competent mage would be spamming burnt wood staff for that fight instead especially if the pet is only going to take 1000 damage. Also I don't think the mage would be using vocarate earth in that situation. It isn't needed at all for the root or HP, I think a mage would use a air pet or dyzils deafening decoy instead to increase DPS. The air pet tanks better than the earth and has a damage proc with the stun and the DDD has a large DS. Personally I would use Dyzils there instead for 350 mana since it casts DS on itself.

I love how you deep dive on the math on this stuff however I think you took that solo video of the mage and used it to look at the class one dimensionally. There are more tools in the kit available than the earth and water pet. If you ever want to test it I have a 58 mage that's parked at the arena that I level there sometimes. No focus staves but she does have the burnt wood.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

There's no need at all, a competent mage would be spamming burnt wood staff for that fight instead especially if the pet is only going to take 1000 damage.


I apologize, I did forget to mention that my previous post is assuming both the Shaman and the Mage are spamming JBB/Burnt Wood Staff (or Boots of Bladecalling). Due to the clickie spam, that is another reason why the Shaman is tanking in this duo, because you are going to get a lot of root breaks. The clickie spam is also the reason I wasn't accounting for the mana you would be gaining back via meditate. The DPS difference is still basically the difference between the Earth Pet tanking and the Water pet backstabbing when you include the clickies.


I love how you deep dive on the math on this stuff however I think you took that solo video of the mage and used it to look at the class one dimensionally. There are more tools in the kit available than the earth and water pet. If you ever want to test it I have a 58 mage that's parked at the arena that I level there sometimes. No focus staves but she does have the burnt wood.

Yeah that would be awesome if I could get some better Mage pet data, and ideas on how Mages try to improve their play. There is surprisingly little data on both topics. That video I showed is about the only one I could find for a 50+ Mage soloing on P99. I got some great DPS data from Allishia on the Epic Pet, but I don't have the equivalent for the non-epic pets.

[Jimjam]

It would be interesting to see how mage pet dps and tanking interact with the cripple line and shaman buffs imo

[Snaggles]

DDD is MUCH lower dps than the 57 earth. I think it’s a bit worse than the 49 pets and you can’t even deadwood it. Maybe pants hasted on a low mana suicidal pet approach but I don’t know.

I haven’t focused an air yet but it doesn’t seem more durable than earth in my informal testing nor is focused water.

[Crede]

DDD is MUCH lower dps than the 57 earth. I think it’s a bit worse than the 49 pets and you can’t even deadwood it. Maybe pants hasted on a low mana suicidal pet approach but I don’t know.

I haven’t focused an air yet but it doesn’t seem more durable than earth in my informal testing nor is focused water.

I would be curious to see some focused 59 air pet parses as well. Seems like a no brainer over earth if root isn’t needed

[Toxigen]

Any duo without FD, lull, or mez is hurtin for a squirtin unless you're just doing trivial shit to xp on.

[Ripqozko]

Any duo without FD, lull, or mez is hurtin for a squirtin unless you're just doing trivial shit to xp on.

You can do some via coth if room (juggs) to split as well.

[Toxigen]

You can do some via coth if room (juggs) to split as well.

https://i.imgur.com/mTUUfey.gif