When are Enchanters will be nerfed?

[Jujuminjo]

We all pretty ,uch knew this class was broken and you pretended it wasn't, the devs now have irrefutable evidence of this and apparently this happened last year so when is this happening?

[Gustoo]

Sometime after red 2.0

[unsunghero]

Maybe if you cry more?

[Tann]

Same patch that'll contain the following fixes:

Immolate does damage.
Magician Pets aggro correctly.
Bard swarm (charm) kiting works.


https://i.imgur.com/amJXWyB.gif

[Jujuminjo]

Maybe if you cry more?

The only ones crying are people like you that said you were going to stop playing if they actually corrected Enchanters.

[magnetaress]

Soon I hope it's way overdue.

[dozkyn]

Why do Enchanters need to be nerfed?

[loramin]

Why do Enchanters need to be nerfed?

To make them classic. See the upper left-corner :)

(But, for the record, "nerfing Enchanters" might not even mean changing the class at all! For instance, classic researcher Dolalin found problems with our channeling implementation, and if they were fixed they would encourage more classic Enchanter play ... without actually changing Enchanters).

[dozkyn]

To make them classic. See the upper left-corner :)

(But, for the record, "nerfing Enchanters" might not even mean changing the class at all! For instance, classic researcher Dolalin found problems with our channeling implementation, and if they were fixed they would encourage more classic Enchanter play ... without actually changing Enchanters).

So the channeling isn't classic? Anything else?

Edit: I'm asking bc I never played a chanter on live and wondering what the issue is here

[Toxigen]

never hope this helps

[Jujuminjo]

So the channeling isn't classic? Anything else?

Edit: I'm asking bc I never played a chanter on live and wondering what the issue is here

What he said and supposedly Charisma isn't supposed to make charming better, people have been saying constantly that charming in original EQ wasn't reliable for Enchanters so they leveled up in groups, compared to here where they can just charm OP NPC's and solo content they shouldn't, they are basically playing with cheats on.

[loramin]

So the channeling isn't classic? Anything else?

Edit: I'm asking bc I never played a chanter on live and wondering what the issue is here

I am a lazy bastard, so I'm not going to find them for you ... but there are (literally) 80+ page threads on this very topic. Search, and you should be able to find them.

In them, much smarter people than I (like classic researcher Dolalin, who I mentioned before) have laid out the various Enchanter-related things which are known to be unclassic, because of classic evidence they found (eg. Wayback Machine archives of old EQ fan pages).

But, to find the good stuff from the classic researchers, you'll have to wade through quite a few pages of idiots like myself arguing about whether Enchanters are classic or not. So, instead, you might want to just go to the bug forum directly, and look for the individual bug reports filed by those researchers.

[zelld52]

What he said and supposedly Charisma isn't supposed to make charming better, people have been saying constantly that charming in original EQ wasn't reliable for Enchanters so they leveled up in groups, compared to here where they can just charm OP NPC's and solo content they shouldn't, they are basically playing with cheats on.

Charisma does not effect charm ticks. it only is part of the roll on initial cast. only level difference and MR are part of the continual roll.

[Jujuminjo]

Charisma does not effect charm ticks. it only is part of the roll on initial cast. only level difference and MR are part of the continual roll.

You are moving the goalpost now and Charisma should not affect anything at all, that is why most of the people playing Enchanters were saying they now would gear just health and other stats.

[zelld52]

You are moving the goalpost now and Charisma should not affect anything at all, that is why most of the people playing Enchanters were saying they now would gear just health and other stats.

Charisma does heavily e impact critical resist roll on pacify resist. Not sure if it’s classic or not because I was a dumb kid who only knew how to play melee in 2000

[unsunghero]

The only ones crying are people like you that said you were going to stop playing if they actually corrected Enchanters.

Maybe if you make a post crying about it on every possible forum here it still won’t happen

Lol keep holding your breath waiting

[Jujuminjo]

Maybe if you make a post crying about it on every possible forum here it still won’t happen

Lol keep holding your breath waiting

How does it feel to know all you have done as an enchanter is due to a cheat?

All this Enchanter mains thinking they were actually good at the game when we all fucking knew this behavior was bogus as fuck, and then they start crying on the forums "they will quit" if they make the change to make Enchanters work as they should, turns out his clowns didn't wanted classic EQ they wanted a cheat version of it.

[unsunghero]

How does it feel to know all you have done as an enchanter is due to a cheat?

All this Enchanter mains thinking they were actually good at the game when we all fucking knew this behavior was bogus as fuck

I know I am not that good at this game. In fact, I actually need your help

I've had this simply RAVISHING pet charmed for what feels like forever now. I've already killed all the mobs around with him, exploited him to get all the exp and loots I could want...but charm simply will not fade for some reason. I don't get it

I've tried hitting the Go Away button in the pet window but that didn't work. I even tried going AFK for a bit, went and made a sandwich which took ~10 minutes, came back and he was still patiently waiting for me. I'm sick of this guy, and want a newer, stronger, more overpowered pet to take his place now

Can you help me figure out how to make charm go away? No rush in getting back to me, I'm sure he'll still be here charmed

[Jujuminjo]

EnCHEATER

[Gustoo]

They’ll be fixed before red 2.0 drops.

[Videri]

When are Enchanters will be nerfed?

https://i.imgur.com/kqMNsVe.png

Can this please be our new meme?

When are [noun] will be [verb]ed?

When are neckbeards will be grow upped?
When are you will be banned?
When is a new server will be opened?

[unsunghero]

https://i.imgur.com/kqMNsVe.png

Can this please be our new meme?

When are [noun] will be [verb]ed?

When are neckbeards will be grow upped?
When are you will be banned?
When is a new server will be opened?

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=qItugh-fFgg

[magnetaress]

https://i.imgur.com/kqMNsVe.png

Can this please be our new meme?

When are [noun] will be [verb]ed?

When are neckbeards will be grow upped?
When are you will be banned?
When is a new server will be opened?

It's how non enchanters will talk in the future.

[Tann]

It's how non enchanters will talk in the future.

/g When are enCHEATERS will be hastin me?

[Videri]

/g When are enCHEATERS will be hastin me?

enCHEATERS!

[sentinel]

I will say I find it funny how everyone is pretending like enchanters were charming like they are on p99. Charm was primarily a CC tool with a high risk/high reward balance. It was never meant to be used regularly to exp.

But my main is an enchanter so I hope nothing is changed.

[Gustoo]

https://i.imgur.com/kqMNsVe.png

Can this please be our new meme?

When are [noun] will be [verb]ed?

When are neckbeards will be grow upped?
When are you will be banned?
When is a new server will be opened?

[Nutell_Woodson]

What is it about enchanters that is making your butt so hurt?

[Toxigen]

What is it about enchanters that is making your butt so hurt?

They can do things no other class can and he big mad.

[Gustoo]

I don't blame people for not remembering what the game was like from 1999-2001, its been over 20 years.

Getting hit by mobs interrupted your casting. Being near a hasted pet when charm broke was guaranteed death and would slaughter an entire group, as recharming it was impossible since it killed it's enchanter first thing. They weren't used as a result.

On p99 I can watch seinfeld and group with an enchanter and casually heal the guy up while he gets his pet under control and continues to pharm monsters on our behalf while I med up for the next charm break and keeping the enchanter with good HP. It isn't like the game plays itself or anything, but its definitely OP.

But I don't care at the moment because I don't play here anymore. Waiting for red 2. I just think the deniers are...in denial.

It's a combination of the charm break RNG calculation and the super channeling on p99 that make these things work way more easily than they did on live.

[azxten]

I will say I find it funny how everyone is pretending like enchanters were charming like they are on p99. Charm was primarily a CC tool with a high risk/high reward balance. It was never meant to be used regularly to exp.

But my main is an enchanter so I hope nothing is changed.

Some honestly for once. The worst part is that a lot of classic mechanics are nerfed on P99 for being "too powerful" but Enchanter gets to maintain non classic mechanics that make them overpowered.

It has been this way forever and the only times I can remember Enchanter getting nerfed (whirl, etc) is when players got sick of them dominating everything as is happening again now. After years of Enchanters doing everything for groups and trivializing the game whirl got nerfed and now charm is the new whirl.

A big problem is that as P99 has gotten more popular a lot of the players don't give a shit what is classic. They like their custom easy mode server where other people play and they don't give a shit about recreating classic EQ. For example it used to actually be a thing to "prove it" and changes would be made. Now that means literally nothing. There is a fat stack of proven non classic core mechanics and it's getting bigger. It seems like as these players accumulate the devs also don't care about making things classic. That was the appeal but now that there is an established player base things are drifting towards customization because why not? No one has time to actually play classic EQ it's way too difficult and time consuming and not solo friendly. We'll just have classic lite.

Like others said, just get an Enchanter in your group and half AFK watching movies or whatever and watch your character experience fly as the easy loot comes in. No one wants to go back to classic EQ where your Enchanter died every few pulls in pick up groups from people breaking mez too quckly or mez being resisted and mobs perma aggroing the Enchanter. The Enchanter dies and you sit there, doing nothing, for an hour while they run back only to die again trying to get to the group and then the group breaks up and the Enchanters corpse is at the bottom of the dungeon for them to figure out retrieval. That's not fun! Classic lite.

[spoil]

Again with this perma aggro stuff. The enchanter has a whole line of memory blur spells. It's a powerful tool that should be used frequently, I never don't have blanket memorized.

And those old war stories sound like some terrible groups. Obviously a nerf to channeling is going to be significant but in a group where anyone else can stun, snare, root or aggro the pet you shouldn't be dying all over the place.

[Gustoo]

The groups worked fine but enchanters actually grouped because it made sense. As opposed to now where they just duo.

Enchanter was not list of top solo classes on live. And it wasn’t cuz players in 1999 to 2003 were stupid. The good players were good.

[sentinel]

The super channeling is another good point, that shit was rarely successful back in release.

[Elizondo]

I will say I find it funny how everyone is pretending like enchanters were charming like they are on p99. Charm was primarily a CC tool with a high risk/high reward balance. It was never meant to be used regularly to exp.

But my main is an enchanter so I hope nothing is changed.

Mez was CC back in Live

Not Charm

Bad enchanters 20 years ago did not stack CHA like they do on P99

Hope that helps

[Ennewi]

I will say I find it funny how everyone is pretending like enchanters were charming like they are on p99. Charm was primarily a CC tool with a high risk/high reward balance. It was never meant to be used regularly to exp.

But my main is an enchanter so I hope nothing is changed.

https://web.archive.org/web/20020723224647/http://www1.pos.to/~azrael/eq/diary/diary200108.htm

DtV second round 2001/08/01
Today, I will challenge Kael 's DtV .

The strategy is almost the same as last time, throwing a
charmed pet into DtV , and in the meantime, a strategy to have a companion a temple guardian . Pretty smoothly, I succeeded in killing two companions. Can you go to DtV as it is? I thought, but it seems that the mana was a little tight, so I shaved it to 60% and issued a camp instruction. A temple guardian 's repop is 30 minutes, so hurry up to CR and charge to DtV . This can go! Thinking that, when I was completely relieved, one of my pets was suddenly killed. Immediately, the second pet was also killed, and after all, it was destroyed when it was reduced to 40%. It seems that the CH was compromised, and the pet was killed during that time.

https://web.archive.org/web/20020723232201/http://www1.pos.to/~azrael/eq/diary/diary200107.htm

dark day 2001/07/31

I decided to challenge Derakor the Vindicator , also known as DtV. The strategy is to charm a small fish giant , make it a main tank, and in the meantime, get a temple guardian to accompany you. Then, just before Charge, the Charm ran out, and one was instantly killed in DtV . In the meantime, I was able to defeat a temple guardian , but one pet can't stand Rampage, and the number of people is gradually decreasing. This time, we gave Camp instructions here and timed out (01:30). But it worked out pretty well. I feel like I can do it next time or after that. So , after that, the 8th NPC, Gloradin, was popping in Eastern Wastes , so I created the 8th Ring.

[Jimjam]

I'm confused as to what the 2001 poster is saying he was doing (apart from using charm as part of a strategy to lead a raid against Vindi). In turn I'm also confused as to what you are trying to communicate in reply to Sentinel?

What does 'companion a temple guardian / get a temple guardian to accompany you' mean? Was the 2001 enc faction warring vindi against his guardians while tanking rampage with a pet?

What went wrong each time? Did an invisible GM despawn the charm pet which was being used on the second day? On the first day was it just a bad luck charm break or something else?

What is the narrative here?

[Zuranthium]

Enchanter was not list of top solo classes on live. And it wasn’t cuz players in 1999 to 2003 were stupid. The good players were good.

There are problems in the p99 code (Lull having such low critical resist chance on MOBs near your level is the most unclassic), but Enchanters were always a good solo class and Charm still had powerful usages in 1999.

It was a very underplayed class the first year of the game, and people definitely refined the ability of the class over time, including player improvements in the modern era. Also, VERY importantly - people's internet, computers, monitors, and game settings got better. Having no lag and far more visibility makes a gigantic difference. Voice chat too. There used to be a few bugs related to charming that don't exist now either.

If people during Classic were commonly charming like they are now, it absolutely would have been nerfed by the devs. That's the most important thing to consider. Personally, in addition to balancing the average duration on Enchanter charm at high levels, I don't think charmed NPC's should be able to get extra attacks via dual wield, nor get the benefit of any haste item outside of the Magician summoned mask. That amount of DPS is unfair and it doesn't make sense for non-dual wielding MOBs to suddenly be doing it (or to be wearing a freaking Tolapumj's Robe when it wouldn't even fit them). I also wouldn't let Enchanters charm every type of animal or undead.

I think the channeling rate difference is a little overstated by some people. With max channeling in original EQ you were definitely able to cast through a single MOB very consistently unless getting stunned. With multiple MOBs attacking it should be considerably more difficult (although I definitely got lots of Gates off in those cases), but Enchanters always had fast-casting AOE stuns they could chain.

[Ennewi]

I'm confused as to what the 2001 poster is saying he was doing (apart from using charm as part of a strategy to lead a raid against Vindi). In turn I'm also confused as to what you are trying to communicate in reply to Sentinel?

Google translation, so some of the original meaning is lost—anyone fluent in Japanese is welcome to chime in—but from what can be gleaned the original posts suggest that charming giants was common enough practice on vindi, at least for that guild. The only difference being that here they are used for DPS whereas in classic apparently they were sent in to tank/ramp. What went wrong each time, guessing here, is that charm broke and the enchanter went splat to their loose pet/vindi. So while it was high risk/high reward...no one, including enchanters, seemed overly concerned with dying.

https://web.archive.org/web/20020602103544/http://www1.pos.to/~azrael/eq/diary/diary.htm

When DtV 's Life is 5% remaining, it's almost destroyed (laughs) In the
DtV battle, everyone is bound at a nearby Safe Point, so they
charge naked as it is, and while the meat wall buys time,
Nuke.

...at least not when raiding in Velious.

Regardless of channeling/interrupts, there are still a lot of discussions dating back to the early days with enchanters stating flatly that charmed pets were superior to their summoned versions.

https://web.archive.org/web/20000510052051/http://www.everlore.com/boards/EL/Forum10/HTML/000522.html

Faelkrad
unregistered posted 04-19-2000 11:37 AM Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
Welp, first off, it sounds like you may think Enchanters are a pet class. They quite simply aren't, so you'd probably be better of not thinkin that from the start. Their abilities simply don't compare to those of the Mage or Necro. You will be able to use your pet effectively possibly up through level 12, but afterwards charm is quite simply the better alternative. So if you're looking to be able to summon a monster of a pet, read no further and forget about Enchanters.

Earlier than that, if the target was not dead and charm broke, some simply advised enchanters to run for the zoneline. And either some of the pet commands weren't working properly at that point or were implemented at a later point in classic.

https://web.archive.org/web/20000301182331/http://www.everlore.com/boards/EL/Forum10/HTML/000303.html
https://web.archive.org/web/20000302032112/http://www.everlore.com/boards/EL/Forum10/HTML/000313.html

It seems to have taken a while, but people were figuring out how to use/abuse charm during classic and openly talking about it.

https://web.archive.org/web/20000408145922/http://www.everlore.com/boards/EL/Forum15/HTML/000428.html


What does 'companion a temple guardian / get a temple guardian to accompany you' mean?

I took this to mean they "pulled" the temple guardian away to keep preoccupied. So it accompanied the player elsewhere, allowing the raid time to kill. I share the rest of your questions as well. While this is likely an issue with the translation (since tmk pulling has always been referred to as pulling), back then players did have ways of describing content that would be considered redundant/outdated today. But another topic for another time.

[azxten]

There are problems in the p99 code (Lull having such low critical resist chance on MOBs near your level is the most unclassic), but Enchanters were always a good solo class and Charm still had powerful usages in 1999.

It was a very underplayed class the first year of the game, and people definitely refined the ability of the class over time, including player improvements in the modern era. Also, VERY importantly - people's internet, computers, monitors, and game settings got better. Having no lag and far more visibility makes a gigantic difference. Voice chat too. There used to be a few bugs related to charming that don't exist now either.

If people during Classic were commonly charming like they are now, it absolutely would have been nerfed by the devs. That's the most important thing to consider. Personally, in addition to balancing the average duration on Enchanter charm at high levels, I don't think charmed NPC's should be able to get extra attacks via dual wield, nor get the benefit of any haste item outside of the Magician summoned mask. That amount of DPS is unfair and it doesn't make sense for non-dual wielding MOBs to suddenly be doing it (or to be wearing a freaking Tolapumj's Robe when it wouldn't even fit them). I also wouldn't let Enchanters charm every type of animal or undead.

I think the channeling rate difference is a little overstated by some people. With max channeling in original EQ you were definitely able to cast through a single MOB very consistently unless getting stunned. With multiple MOBs attacking it should be considerably more difficult (although I definitely got lots of Gates off in those cases), but Enchanters always had fast-casting AOE stuns they could chain.

First year Enchanters were the buggiest class in the game. I've read the posts from that era and Enchanters didn't even mem mezz because it never worked due to line of sight issues. Mezz was a stun at first and Enchanters were stunning and DoTing mobs with choke to kill stuff. It was a totally different situation that is nothing like P99. People begged others not to use their pets and sure as hell didn't want a charmed pet anywhere near them. Charmed pets attacked their own groups and became immune to damage and all kinds of weird stuff. All actual issues we can reference. Charming like we see on P99 never occurred until late in classic close to Kunark launch and it was limited to outdoor zones and raids.

Enchanters did charm on raids and you can read their stories of being supported by a team of players and still dying all the time. That was another thing I learned going down the Enchanter rabbit hole. Classic EQ mobs basically all had hand tuned stats that we'll never be able to recover. Undead just based on memory always had higher MR than other mobs. There was all kinds of wacky customization within the mob types and even individual mobs that we'll never recreate. On P99 a fear mob is just a level X mob it isn't a hand tuned Brad autographed planar mob which probably had ridiculous resists and other stats that made them beast mode compared to P99's wimpy unrest like yard trash mobs.

The channeling differences are about the journey to high level. The only thing people 50+ would really notice is channeling would begin to fall often where multiple mobs were hitting you because you are doing a roll per hit. No more lucky gating out of bad situations or getting things under control with 2-3 mobs on you by casting CC spells. Letting people easily get to 50+ though screws up the server forever. Channeling is about 70% at level 1 on P99 whereas on live it's about 5-10% chance and again one roll that gets modified slightly for every attack you took vs the classsic roll for every hit you take. I assure you, letting people channel like they're level 50 when they are level 1 has a major impact on the server forever and is part of why the raid scene is notoriously shitty here because they missed one of the biggest sources of difficulty in the game so everyone coasts up to max level.

[azxten]

from what can be gleaned the original posts suggest that charming giants was common enough practice on vindi...only difference being that here they are used for DPS whereas in classic apparently they were sent in to tank/ramp


Velious is when Enchanters began to charm in a way similar to P99. Also they probably weren't used for DPS because it took dedicated teams of players to control charmed mobs. Enchanters charmed late in classic and charmed Fear mobs but specifically mention the dedicated effort of about 5 people to keep things under control and the Enchanter alive. Like I mention above MR is a big factor that seems to be missing on P99 for these mobs.

there are still a lot of discussions dating back to the early days with enchanters stating flatly that charmed pets were superior to their summoned versions

No, that quote said that your pet won't be as good and the best thing you have is a charmed pet. It didn't say a charmed pet is better.

if the target was not dead and charm broke, some simply advised enchanters to run for the zoneline

Correct and fits with outdoor zones being where Enchanters used charm. There wasn't solo Enchanters in SolA camping kindle at level 30 using charm on live. It was viable outdoors where you could dump bad situations and run speed buffs were a requirement.

And either some of the pet commands weren't working properly at that point or were implemented at a later point in classic.

A lot of pet things weren't working properly. We do know that fine steel dagger to reduce delay was working, and is classic, but is nerfed on P99 whereas Enchanters killing 5 blue mobs at the same time by themselves in a dungeon was not happening.


It seems to have taken a while, but people were figuring out how to use/abuse charm during classic and openly talking about it.

I didn't read too far but it sounds like they are discussing Bard charm which actually worked, they had the run speed buff to use it more than Enchanter did, and was clasically always the more overpowered charm whereas on P99 Bards are told not to charm.

http://www.afterlifeguild.org/Thott/bard_charm.php

Prior to kunark, bards were at minimum the equal of enchanters in charm, and in most situations, better. The bard charm cap is 51 at level 39, 51 at level 50...and still 51 at level 60.

Thott from Afterlife stating Bards were at the MINIMUM equal to Enchanters in charm and in most situations better. Does that sound like P99? He is lamenting the state of Bards being ignored as Charm became more powerful for Enchanter. As I've said, Enchanter was literal garbage in classic and was the most bugged and least played class. All backed by in era posts including a Sony released poll of classes they did to find out who needed to be nerfed. Enchanter was at the bottom of the list and no one played it. It wasn't because they didn't know how CHA worked.

[Ennewi]

Velious is when Enchanters began to charm in a way similar to P99. Also they probably weren't used for DPS because it took dedicated teams of players to control charmed mobs.

https://i.imgur.com/n2X7a6I.jpg

Quite a few screenshots like the one above, where it can't be proven that the mob was charmed (as it could easily be aggroed onto a player instead), but the angle suggests it may have been attacking the raid target. That isn't to say it was commonplace though and of course better examples would need to be found.


No, that quote said that your pet won't be as good and the best thing you have is a charmed pet. It didn't say a charmed pet is better.

"You will be able to use your pet effectively possibly up through level 12, but afterwards charm is quite simply the better alternative."


https://web.archive.org/web/20010114075500/http://forums.castersrealm.com/eq/Forum9/HTML/002835.html

TanaElven
unregistered posted November 17, 2000 09:48 AM Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
If the creature is no longer your pet when the killing blow is landed and it did over 50% of the damage the corpse poofs.

This is BS Alandrel. I've spent good deal of my time soloing 34-49 actually and I can tell you for sure that if your charmed pet does most the damage then breaks charm and you kill the mob YOU STILL GET THE EXP. However if by some wierd chance charm breaks JUST as it's delivering the final death blow your mob will poof. Which makes me believe ( no for sure proof) That charmed pets don't count in the exp penalty. And honestly after killing more dorfs then i can count I've tried it both ways doing over 50% or backing pet off and membluring mob to get exp and just letting the mob blow thru each other and the exp seems about the same either way I was averaging about 1 and 1/4 bubs a hour either way killing the same 6 dorfs. So i finally gave up and just let the charmed pet do all the work which lets me kill them using less then 40mana on 6 dorfs.

IP: Logged

Alandrel
Veteran Poster
Posts: 174
Registered: Oct 2000

posted November 17, 2000 10:16 AM Click Here to See the Profile for Alandrel Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
I have charm soloed for over 20 levels. If your ex-pet does over 50% of the damage and is still alive when your target dies the corpses poofs. Always. Unless you blurred or mezzed it and got a blur off the mez.
Not to hard to test this if you really haven't seen it. Just invis, root your ex-pet, and nuke your target. This is assuming you have not blurred or mezzed the target. The corpse will poof and you get 0 exp.

------------------
Alandrel Mesmer


Amantus
unregistered posted November 17, 2000 04:49 PM Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
The only way the creature your killing poofs is if the mob who did most of the damage is alive and NOT charmed at the time of death. A mob can break 10 times and as long as you have it charmed when whatever you are fighting finally goes down you will get the exp.
Amantus


Alandrel
Veteran Poster
Posts: 174
Registered: Oct 2000

posted November 21, 2000 10:26 AM Click Here to See the Profile for Alandrel Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
Yes. But you will miss out on the experience from your ex-pet. The most efficent way I have found to charm solo is as follows.
1. mez/tash/charm pet.
2. send it in.
3. tash/root target.
4. med and monitor health
5. step in and blur/nuke the target so that
you do more then half the damage.
6. pet guard here
7. cancel magic type spell on pet.
8. mez/root. then dd the ex-pet to death.

You will often get 100% of the experience on the first target. This depends on if the blur hit or not. You will always get 100% of the experience on the ex-pet. This means you are getting 150-200% of the possible experience for two critters.

------------------
Alandrel Mesmer


I didn't read too far but it sounds like they are discussing Bard charm which actually worked, they had the run speed buff to use it more than Enchanter did, and was clasically always the more overpowered charm whereas on P99 Bards are told not to charm.

Can't remember being in a group where the bard was instructed not to charm, only complaints if the bard didn't break charm on a moment's notice to kill the charmed mob. However it does make sense, in classic, if bards were using it more regularly than other charm classes given their ability to cast and move around freely, without the interruptions that were associated those that relied on channeling.

Thott from Afterlife stating Bards were at the MINIMUM equal to Enchanters in charm and in most situations better. Does that sound like P99?

Question is, was this before or after the nerf that prevented bards from charming raid targets? When bards were able to charm bosses in sky, not excluding Inte Akera, sure he would have put them in the same league as classic enchanters. And there's a fair amount of evidence to suggest bards were still able to charm targets up to 55 even after the nerf. If that ever gets patched in and there is a new green server, p99 bards might say it sounds like what you described.

He is lamenting the state of Bards being ignored as Charm became more powerful for Enchanter.

Many seemed to have similar misgivings as the game progressed, one player in particular who earned a direct reply from Geoffrey Zatkin... "Bards are good at Charming, they are not the masters of it. Only Enchanters are the masters of charming."

[PatChapp]

There are problems in the p99 code (Lull having such low critical resist chance on MOBs near your level is the most unclassic), but Enchanters were always a good solo class and Charm still had powerful usages in 1999.

It was a very underplayed class the first year of the game, and people definitely refined the ability of the class over time, including player improvements in the modern era. Also, VERY importantly - people's internet, computers, monitors, and game settings got better. Having no lag and far more visibility makes a gigantic difference. Voice chat too. There used to be a few bugs related to charming that don't exist now either.

If people during Classic were commonly charming like they are now, it absolutely would have been nerfed by the devs. That's the most important thing to consider. Personally, in addition to balancing the average duration on Enchanter charm at high levels, I don't think charmed NPC's should be able to get extra attacks via dual wield, nor get the benefit of any haste item outside of the Magician summoned mask. That amount of DPS is unfair and it doesn't make sense for non-dual wielding MOBs to suddenly be doing it (or to be wearing a freaking Tolapumj's Robe when it wouldn't even fit them). I also wouldn't let Enchanters charm every type of animal or undead.

I think the channeling rate difference is a little overstated by some people. With max channeling in original EQ you were definitely able to cast through a single MOB very consistently unless getting stunned. With multiple MOBs attacking it should be considerably more difficult (although I definitely got lots of Gates off in those cases), but Enchanters always had fast-casting AOE stuns they could chain.

Tola robe kinda pointless anyway due to haste caps.
Clickie haste + muzzle already 73% haste, close enough to haste capped pet.
Can get to 79% with wonderous but usually not needed

[magnetaress]

no one really dumped haste items on merbs and solo charmed that way either lol

maybe like 1 or two ppl did it once when they where going after a raidd target maybe

and like the above poster said if everyone was doing it the devs would have nerfed it so hard

so pearl clutch and cope and seeth

[azxten]

https://i.imgur.com/n2X7a6I.jpg

Quite a few screenshots like the one above, where it can't be proven that the mob was charmed (as it could easily be aggroed onto a player instead), but the angle suggests it may have been attacking the raid target. That isn't to say it was commonplace though and of course better examples would need to be found.

That's Kunark, like I said Enchanters charmed in Fear late in classic pre-Kunark with the help of dedicated teams. The power curve for charm gradually gets better over time. The problem is on P99 it starts at max power there is no curve. It should start as unusable not Velious era functionality.

"You will be able to use your pet effectively possibly up through level 12, but afterwards charm is quite simply the better alternative."

Yes, they said charm is better than their pet. Not other pet classes pets.

Question is, was this before or after the nerf that prevented bards from charming raid targets? When bards were able to charm bosses in sky, not excluding Inte Akera, sure he would have put them in the same league as classic enchanters. And there's a fair amount of evidence to suggest bards were still able to charm targets up to 55 even after the nerf. If that ever gets patched in and there is a new green server, p99 bards might say it sounds like what you described.

Bards did that about once or twice it wasn't a widespread thing it was immediately nerfed.

November 17, 2000

Those posts are from almost 6 months after Kunark launch.

Think of it this way...

March 1999 - EQ launches
April 2000 - Kunark released
December 2000 - Velious released

14 months of classic era then 8 months between Kunark and Velious, probably about 10-12 months of that time Charm should be unusable except for outdoor run speed boosted use or in situations where a group or raid is helping the Enchanter manage things. An Enchanter could not control a pet solo in a dungeon without dying more often than not.

Green launch, like I referred to before, had level 30 Enchanters using back stabbing goblin pets in sola soloing kindle area in 1-2 weeks. I know because I was there getting power leveled by them same as it progressed through HHK with Os backstabbing. I barely played the game and these high ZEM (also not classic by the way P99 is about double classic exp rates) Enchanter backstab groups got me to level 50 without even trying.

This isn't classic, at all, and it impacts the server FOREVER. Same as making The Hole a high ZEM zone flooded the market with loam armor that used to be expensive. These unclassic adjustments have an impact that can't be undone. I remember proof in bug report forums that exp rates were 2x too high and shortly after that is when they changed the ZEM zones. Rather than make things classic they just shifted the ZEMs around. Think of all the fine steel, item drops, and experience Enchanters alone bring to a just launched server in their non classic state. It is insane and sets the stage to trivialize Kunark/Velious as people race to get 5 alts on their account to max level.

Like I've said for whatever reason the staff wants people to level faster than is classic and stack up at raid level. That isn't something that can be argued when they increased spawn rates at launch and provided a second instanced server that they announced they intended to merge back into Green once the population spread out. When stuff like that happens you have to accept you're not playing a server that is trying to recreate classic anymore. The high ZEMs, Enchanter nonsense, and channeling are all examples of things that continue to promote non classic rates of leveling and it produces the raid scene you all know and love.

The raid scene on P99 is created by the project decisions which are not driven by a desire to recreate classic. Fast newbie zone spawn rates is not classic and it's not how you should launch a classic server. Anytime you want to believe there is something to debate about Enchanter just remember those spawn rates. Enchanter as it works at launch is not classic and as it plays level 1-50 is not classic either. Sure, halfway into Kunark and 50+ it works well enough. By then it's too late and the server has already severely departed from a global cassic situation in terms of money, items, and experience.

By the way on top of all this, almost every mechanism in classic EQ used to level fast or farm excessively has been nerfed on P99. Mage weapon procs, fine steel delay, Bard AE kiting, AE groups, unresistable lifetaps, certain proc items, etc. Even raid mechanics are severely nerfed. Somehow all of this which is classic has been nerfed away and now everyone sits around and basically gets carried by non classic Enchanters into a non classic raid scene flooded with power leveled newbs. A maddening situation for anyone who actually wants to play classic EQ.

[Jimjam]

The kaladim bone chips xp got nerfed even though research suggested the prenerf xp was the classic amount!

Edit: the newb zones were fast spawn cos they weren’t able to implement the ancient crocodile style linked spawns that newbie yards classically had. The fast spawns was a bodge to emulate that, and would have been a better bodge if the spawn points were slightly randomised.

[Jibartik]

would it be a viable strategy to solo wuoshi by training all the giants in the zone on it?

[azxten]

The kaladim bone chips xp got nerfed even though research suggested the prenerf xp was the classic amount!

Edit: the newb zones were fast spawn cos they weren’t able to implement the ancient crocodile style linked spawns that newbie yards classically had. The fast spawns was a bodge to emulate that, and would have been a better bodge if the spawn points were slightly randomised.

If I recall correctly the fast spawns were turned off. If that was a classic move it should be left on. Same with Teal. They started an instanced server to relieve newbie zone pressure when they weren't close to live population numbers.

https://project1999.com/forums/showthread.php?t=339096

feedback and hesitation we've seen from people who are waiting to play due to the overcrowding

important to consider the affect such a population will have once the majority of players start reaching end game zones

This only made sense if Teal was not merged back. That would have actually been a good commitment to stand up another server that did not merge if they wanted less density. This would have also helped the raid scene by splitting guilds across servers.

The fact is, even at concurrent numbers of 1500 to 2000, it is simply too many players for pre-Kunark.

Looking at responses to that announcement...

Let the economy rampant inflation begin!

A lot of people knew this was a bad idea. They just doubled the drops for legacy items or they had to double the drop times. Just more items flowing in making that Kunark ramp easier and easier.

It's hard to argue that P99 isn't intentionally a non classic easy server at this point. The only thing that isn't easy about it is all the classic mechanics that are intentionally nerfed. It's pretty strange.

[kaev]

It's a combination of the charm break RNG calculation and the super channeling on p99 that make these things work way more easily than they did on live.

In this era it was riskier on live than it is here. It was far from useless tho, the first AoW kill was by a guild that used a big pile of enchanters to charm giant after giant and send them in (prompting the usual nuclear flyswatter "Nerf them, nerf them all!" response from Verant).

Eventually, for certain by the LDoN expansion, charming was as powerful on live as it is here (i.e. manageable enough for a solo Enchanter to crush an LDoN dungeon after getting some random LFG guy to pair up long enough to start the mission). Of course, LDoN is literally years out of scope for this project.

[MaddiusTheMad]

Never. We get some dominant performance areas but we're not anywhere near always the mvp class pick let alone even always a flawless solution to anything and everything. That's for sure.

[Zuranthium]

First year Enchanters were the buggiest class in the game. I've read the posts from that era and Enchanters didn't even mem mezz because it never worked due to line of sight issues. Mezz was a stun at first

Enchanters were an OP class from the start, most people just didn't realize it. I don't recall Mezz being different from its current state for long, and Whirl Til You Hurl was ridiculously powerful at launch anyway. The "problem" with Mezz during early era EQ was average groups didn't understand how to play with it and were constantly breaking it.

14 months of classic era then 8 months between Kunark and Velious, probably about 10-12 months of that time Charm should be unusable except for outdoor run speed boosted use or in situations where a group or raid is helping the Enchanter manage things. An Enchanter could not control a pet solo in a dungeon without dying more often than not.

This is inaccurate. Nothing about the code itself changed to let Enchanters suddenly be able to control a charm pet much better. They had the ability from the start and it's not hard to use Color Flux/Color Shift to stun the broken pet, then CC it and re-charm.

There are a large number of factors that contributed to it being less common back then as compared to p99, aside from charm itself being a bit too good on p99:

1.) Color Shift was a research spell so not everyone had it during the first year
2.) Most players back then didn't know about global cooldown reset for spells, so without Color Shift, there's a delay between the aftercast of Color Flux + Mesmerize that means the Enchanter gets hit right before Mezz finishes casting
3.) Channeling was a bit weaker then, so slightly higher chance of Mezz being interrupted at high level, and moderately higher chance at mid level
4.) Much more lag and much less visibility
5.) Less players had high CHA stat
6.) It wasn't as understood to charm something much lower level and drag it around as a pet
7.) No pet window and no "charm wore off" message for the first 10 months
8.) People were simply scared to do certain things back then

There's no doubt Charm would have been nerfed back then if everyone understood how to do it optimally, but it was very powerful from the start and the best players did use it effectively (even if not to the degree that it gets used on p99).

Enchanters didn't need to use Charm to be good at solo/duo during 1999 anyway. The animation pet when being given Daggers (or Gnoll Hide Lariats! Those were super in demand) did huge DPS. It was easy for that pet to chew through slowed/stunned MOBs. Giving a pet low delay weapons did take some time to become common knowledge, but even with a basic pet Enchanters could solo better than most other classes.

Green launch had level 30 Enchanters using back stabbing goblin pets in sola soloing kindle area in 1-2 weeks.

I mean yeah it's BS, but this is also largely because people understand the game so much better now. Charm pets shouldn't be allowed to backstab or dual wield, the damage is imbalanced.

Tola robe kinda pointless anyway due to haste caps.
Clickie haste + muzzle already 73% haste, close enough to haste capped pet.
Can get to 79% with wonderous but usually not needed

Which clickie are you talking about, the epic? It should be 77% with that and muzzle.

Is the pet haste cap not 100?

Quite a few screenshots like the one above, where it can't be proven that the mob was charmed (as it could easily be aggroed onto a player instead), but the angle suggests it may have been attacking the raid target.

Something that's wrong on p99 is using charm pets against raid targets that can Fear. There are stories of a charmed Imp Protector doing 50% of the raid damage to Nagafen on the first Green raid of him. Like...how? Pets should just be getting Feared away all the time. Their level and MR is too low to ever resist it.

Also, there was a 4-pet limit implemented in Classic EQ. No more than that could attack a target at one time. This was never put into p99.

[Jibartik]

would it be a viable strategy to solo wuoshi by training all the giants in the zone on it?

:(

[PatChapp]

Enchanters were an OP class from the start, most people just didn't realize it. I don't recall Mezz being different from its current state for long, and Whirl Til You Hurl was ridiculously powerful at launch anyway. The "problem" with Mezz during early era EQ was average groups didn't understand how to play with it and were constantly breaking it.



This is inaccurate. Nothing about the code itself changed to let Enchanters suddenly be able to control a charm pet much better. They had the ability from the start and it's not hard to use Color Flux/Color Shift to stun the broken pet, then CC it and re-charm.

There are a large number of factors that contributed to it being less common back then as compared to p99, aside from charm itself being a bit too good on p99:

1.) Color Shift was a research spell so not everyone had it during the first year
2.) Most players back then didn't know about global cooldown reset for spells, so without Color Shift, there's a delay between the aftercast of Color Flux + Mesmerize that means the Enchanter gets hit right before Mezz finishes casting
3.) Channeling was a bit weaker then, so slightly higher chance of Mezz being interrupted at high level, and moderately higher chance at mid level
4.) Much more lag and much less visibility
5.) Less players had high CHA stat
6.) It wasn't as understood to charm something much lower level and drag it around as a pet
7.) No pet window and no "charm wore off" message for the first 10 months
8.) People were simply scared to do certain things back then

There's no doubt Charm would have been nerfed back then if everyone understood how to do it optimally, but it was very powerful from the start and the best players did use it effectively (even if not to the degree that it gets used on p99).

Enchanters didn't need to use Charm to be good at solo/duo during 1999 anyway. The animation pet when being given Daggers (or Gnoll Hide Lariats! Those were super in demand) did huge DPS. It was easy for that pet to chew through slowed/stunned MOBs. Giving a pet low delay weapons did take some time to become common knowledge, but even with a basic pet Enchanters could solo better than most other classes.



I mean yeah it's BS, but this is also largely because people understand the game so much better now. Charm pets shouldn't be allowed to backstab or dual wield, the damage is imbalanced.



Which clickie are you talking about, the epic? It should be 77% with that and muzzle.

Is the pet haste cap not 100?



Something that's wrong on p99 is using charm pets against raid targets that can Fear. There are stories of a charmed Imp Protector doing 50% of the raid damage to Nagafen on the first Green raid of him. Like...how? Pets should just be getting Feared away all the time. Their level and MR is too low to ever resist it.

Also, there was a 4-pet limit implemented in Classic EQ. No more than that could attack a target at one time. This was never put into p99.


My mistake, it is 77% haste with clickie and a muzzle.
A mob would need to be lvl 60 for 100% haste.
Most pets I charm are closer to lvl 50,maxing out at 53.
Haste caps for lvl 50 is 74,and 84 If it's a pet that maxes our boltrans.

So if you were to use wondrous and a muzzle, a maxed out pet would be at 81% haste. Dictate pets not withstanding,though those tend to be different scenarios

[Zuranthium]

That makes sense, is it confirmed NPC's abide by the same haste cap rule as players though? I would still not allow pets to be able to use worn haste outside of the Magician mask anyway.

[Jimjam]

That makes sense, is it confirmed NPC's abide by the same haste cap rule as players though? I would still not allow pets to be able to use worn haste outside of the Magician mask anyway.

Eq doesn’t tend to put the same restrictions, checks and balances on npc as players. I’d be entirely unsurprised if they have no cap on their haste from level 1.

[Ananka]

"Thott from Afterlife stating Bards were at the MINIMUM equal to Enchanters in charm and in most situations better"

This was mentioned earlier and while I didn't know Thott to speak to him casually I did see his Aftathott running around a ton as I played a high level bard early on and I only saw him in raid situations and grouped going after epic mobs. (I would hang around and watch AL, I was also trying to figure out the epic quest which hadn't been published yet). He gets hype for leading AL and winning best of the best tournaments but his bard had the highest HP's of any bard anywhere early on as he had bis gear and there really wasn't a close second to his bard gear wise anywhere for a long time. He also has said that solo he would fear/snare on the bard. I don't think he represents the average bard at the time or even the average high end bard.

I can tell you that the level 27 charm was great but it only lasted the typical 3 ticks and mobs were going to turn on you a lot each fight unless you timed it just right which wasn't that often. It was risky as heck solo in a dungeon that easily got you killed and was safer in group situations with a healer but that ended at level 37. If an enchanter was in my group I had zero reason to charm ever as their charm lasted way longer and mine felt like a gimmick or trick.

The next charm at 39 was considered a nerf by the Concert Hall community as it needed mana and long charming sessions couldn't be maintained. I would often be OOM in places like Karnor's Castle. Whatever we had with the previous charm was more powerful in classic at the mid levels then it was from Kunark and on.

Long story short, there was zero comfort while charming as a bard, it felt very temporary and dicey, a powerful tool but gimicky. It just had a different feel when enchanters joined the group.

[Vivitron]

Eq doesn’t tend to put the same restrictions, checks and balances on npc as players. I’d be entirely unsurprised if they have no cap on their haste from level 1.

I began assuming charm pets follow the player haste cap after killing cliff golems with Tourmaline and Corundium charmed (the level 50 gargoyles). We had a mithril 2 hander on one of them but it seemed to be hitting maybe barely faster than the other.

It shouldn't be too hard to test whether WR gives a large rat 70% or is capped at 50%; if I remember to do it I'll post back.

[Jimjam]

I began assuming charm pets follow the player haste cap after killing cliff golems with Tourmaline and Corundium charmed (the level 50 gargoyles). We had a mithril 2 hander on one of them but it seemed to be hitting maybe barely faster than the other.

It shouldn't be too hard to test whether WR gives a large rat 70% or is capped at 50%; if I remember to do it I'll post back.

That is interesting. Certainly a good explanation. Thinking of other potential reasons, perhaps they were not able to wield the sword?

[surron]

2 major issues with p99 and enchanter charm... 1 can be fixed, the other not so much.

1. CHA does not affect duration, only affects initial resist check - massive amount of evidence proving this, anecdotal evidence disproving this.

2. individual mobs magic resist values. impossible to gather this information. imo many mobs are too low and attribute to the longer than normal charm times.

the best evidence gathered in this era is from TAKP devs using eqmac and live... massive amount of research for the 2002 era which is not too far from our era

[Encroaching Death]

When I first played this game in 1999, I used to tell my friends that Enchanters were the weakest character to play because their damage spells hit for less than Wizards, etc.

Man, I was a dumbass. Still am.

[Toxigen]

sorry you dont got enchanter hope this helps

[Jujuminjo]

sorry you dont got enchanter hope this helps

Every honest persons sees through your malicious speech.

[goblinmob]

probly doesn't help