Warriors. Who tanks with a 2h?

[Troxx]

I tank/dps with:

https://wiki.project1999.com/Frostreaver

I’m bored of the “best 4 man all caster/priest group” in green chat.

Anyone else out there who tanks with a 2h? What are your thoughts and feedback? If I had, say, a willsapper and red epic combo or NTOV trident/red-epic combo … I could test it for myself. Being able to slow shit is it’s own side perk. Unfortunately my only alternative is infestation and frostbringer which is objectively worse for both damage and aggro. I buried that combo a long time ago.

Any raid warriors out there with the above (red epic, WS, and/or Trident) … who has also compared it to a Frostreaver willing to weigh in? For now I lub me some big ass axe on my dwarf warrior. Solid dps; bare minimal ripostes; and aggro that (I think) is about as good as the best duel wield combos out there now that final 2h dmg bonuses are in game and procs are limited to 400 threat + dd for aggro (red epic obvious exception).

I miss 3 procs a min at 255 dex but my experience thus far is that with superior white damage, better dmg bonus application, and main hand triple attack … it just wins.

Let us discuss. I need to be edumacated.

My mind is wide open.

(Allyisha et al I am looking at YOU!)

[Troxx]

I main tanked a fair bit of stuff in my time in AG but haven’t main tanked anything like AoW or Vulak. Midnight mallet back then made all aggro trivial.

I want to hear the thoughts of the seasoned raid tanks currently.

[Solist]

To preface the below:

1. Rogues evade has significantly changed since 2019. It is effectively worthless when compared to it's previous operation.
2. Clicks are not a thing aside from a real emergency, as sceptre of the forlorn is a large timesink so using them is retarded unless it saves a raid.
3. As clicks arent a thing, bumps are too valuable to waste on shit warriors who cant manage aggro properly.

That said, your job is to hold aggro and not die. There's not really a situation on the server with how we play the game that your job can be not that.

It cant be pissing about trying to avoid riposts. Rogues die.
It cant be pissing about worried about lifetaps. DPS die, mob flips.
It cant be pissing about trying to minmax some weird shit. DPS die, mob flips.
It cant be trying to make a clerics life somehow easier. Enchanters die from sieving, mob flips, rogues die, mob gates. ETC.

So feverblade/redblade, or any other combo of the top 10 for each hand. It doesnt matter which, any of the top 10 in either hand is fine.

Pick any of the top 10 aggro weapons. Put either in either hand. Press auto attack. Try to land a totem first, or totems through a weaponshield. Keep auto attack on until a second short of enrage. Re attack after. Spend your mental energy hovering wort pots and your reaper, watching the chain landing and being vocal about your DI status, damage shield status etc. A warrior stays alive, if you're fucking about doing anything but holding aggro and not dieing, you're generally doing it wrong*. Edit: Can also add, some stupid fast engage thats unslowable where noone is actually there but you, your worts, and a cleric or paladin? Sword and board. Ikky pops and there's 2 clerics only? same. etc. Then appropriately build aggro once heals are established. You're also intentionally limiting your aggro so a monk can take aggro and bump if need be in these situations.

As for 2h, they're sublime for controlled aggro generation. A set hate value per unit of time on a non aggro proccing 2h weapon is supurb.

Vyemm 2hs, Eashan 2hs, Vulak 2hs, Kriezenn 2hs, rocksmasher, facesmasher, meldjin are all great examples where your hate/second value is identical, as long as auto attack is on. So you can manage exactly how much hate you're making compared to any warrior with aggro weapons, and compensate with totems accordingly (such as 2nd tank for AoW, Tunare). Knowing the main tank with any of the top 10 weapons in either hand is making in the order of 75hate/second, means you can look at your vyemm 2hs at +-68 hate/sec and be fairly confident you will need to hit totems equal to the tanks initial totems plus one every 45+- seconds to match his aggro. The same can be said for something like horn of hsagra and blue blade but it's a bit too little, you'll lose 5 rogues on a swap or burn 2 bumps.

Actual tanking with a 2h, they just dont have the aggro generation. On HoT mobs, sure after slow swap in epic 2h or frostreaver if you must and it feels good and for some reason you feel like alt tabbing in. Noone is dieing to a flipped hot mob. VS? max aggro. Draco? max aggro. *Some weird circumstance where the raid isnt dps'ing, sure sword and board.

[Solist]

Solid dps; bare minimal ripostes; and aggro that (I think) is about as good as the best duel wield combos out there now that final 2h dmg bonuses are in game

Wrong on all counts, by a large margin.

[Tunabros]

nerd alert

[Toxigen]

Yeah Frostreaver just isn't good enough for raids. As soon as you get willsapper + whatever else its its shelved for eternity.

Feverblade is so damn good.

[Allishia]

I'll use epic 2hander when my disc fades if its a real hard hitting target and we low numbers, or vindi if low clrs Ill use it sometimes..

The only mobs I most of the time start out with 2hand are VS / Draco and that sk epic in city of mist. +evasive. On raid version of VS I'll click scepter a few times if I notice someone attacked before I called assist..

But if you have them, 1handers are way better for getting agro fast, unless lucky chain of procs on the 2hand.

[Naethyn]

If you have a better haste than your group you can hold aggro with a 2h.

[Troxx]

Well well now. I apparently triggered someone somehow without trying.

[Solist]

Alli uses a lot of scepters unnessesarily, and doesnt spend her life 45mins at a time farming them.

During VS you can free cast totems the entire fight as the tank, as nothing is hitting you when runed.

[Allishia]

Alli uses a lot of scepters unnessesarily, and doesnt spend her life 45mins at a time farming them.

During VS you can free cast totems the entire fight as the tank, as nothing is hitting you when runed.

Lol we have perma scepter farmers getting paid for it and scepters last me a while thank you! I just use a click here or there if need and only on specific mobs /nod.

I honestly did not know about the cast with rune on, will try that ty!

[Troxx]

Wrong on all counts, by a large margin.

Wrong on all accounts? I need you to be a lot more specific.

Count 1: bare minimal ripostes. This is the easiest to tackle.

This isn’t even worthy of a debate. Ripostes are a function of how often you try to hit a thing and get your s chances of hitting you back. Using willsapper/epic as a comparison, with delays of 20 and 24 and the mechanics of double attack and dual wield you will be swinging at least 3-4x as many times as you would with a delay 43 2 hander. This is not up for debate … so yeah 300-400% more riposte damage. How important is this? Meh. Not enough that I would give much of a shit for 99.99% of content. But you said I was “wrong on all counts, by a large margin.

Count 2: threat. This will be the interesting part of the discussion. Threat can be broken down into 2-3 areas (depending on how you want to split them).

A). PROCS: Using willsapper and red epic as example. At 255 dex you’re looking at 2 willsapper and 1 red epic proc per minute. Willsapper proc is hard capped at 400 hate. Red epic is unique at 500 raw hate plus 100 dd. (400x2) + 600 = 1400 proc hate per minute. Compare that to Frostreaver with a 400 threat stun and 125dd x 2 per minute is 1050 threat per minute. From procs. We now establish that Frostreaver is running a 350 threat per minute deficit that has to be made up for. We can later discuss the implications of reducing proc rate from 3 to 2 per minute as I will admit it is significant, but I digress.

B). DAMAGE BONUS: I bet most of us remember the time where damage bonus per swing was a flat 11 per swing regardless of delay or 1h vs 2h. This is no longer the case.
-Using this same combination willsapper still gets that 11 dmg bonus. At a 20 delay but 100% haste (so 1 swing a second) … this generates 780 DB per minute if you only ever single attacked. Since we know warriors double attack AND triple attack you can safely multiply this by 1.8 to see that per minute, willsapper is generating around 1404 threat per minute at 100% haste and a 20 base delay. From DAMAGE BONUS alone.
-Compare now to Frostreaver. It is not a one hander. 2handers now have their own DB tables and at 43 delay it has a damage bonus of 37. This is one of the sweet spots for delay as with a 42 delay DB would have been 34. At 100% haste this 43 delay weapon lands a swing every 2.15 seconds applying this 37 dmg bonus per attempt. This works out to 1032 damage bonus threat per minute if you only single attacked. Multiply this by the same healthy 1.8 to account for double and triple attack and you’re now looking at 1857 threat per minute from DAMAGE BONUS alone.
-Willsapper/epic Dmg bonus threat of 1404 vs 1857 from Frostreaver bumps FR up a 453 advantage in this aspect (453 positive more than offsets the 350 deficit … I trust you see where this is going)

C). POTENTIAL DAMAGE: some like to lump this together with the above. To keep it clean I like to keep it separate. No matter how you slice it the combined ratios of 13/20 and 14/24 are actually inferior to 42/43z. Used to be damage bonus gave faster one handers the advantage but has been shown above this is no longer the case. I don’t have a 13/20 or 14/24 weapon to directly compare it to but it does more than my 9/18 and 12/22 used to do by … a lot. It also beats out my monks superior ratio to willsapper combo (epic fists and 13/21 offhand) by a fair margin. So whatever the non DB component of threat actually is, Frostreaver beats out WS and red epic by some margin.

So we started with a -350 threat deficit due to loss of a proc. We then factor in damage bonus only and Frostreaver is ahead by 103. Factoring in weapon ratio superiority and Frostreaver does actually pull even further ahead.

Count 3: solid dps. We already more or less covered this in B and C above. It will out dps WS and red along with quite a few other raid-use threat combinations. There are definitely better 2 handers out there for dps, but none with the threat proc to round it out.

———————

Discussion:

I know the words math, logic, evidence etc are all dirty words on this forum thanks to DSM but you will need to bring more to the table than “Wrong on all counts, by a large margin” if you actually want to have a meaningful discussion.

My mind is wide open. Please feel free to poke holes in anything I have said above.

I will state I am capable of abstract thought. The above, though accurate, remains napkin math. My experiences do support it. Actual gameplay and napkin math frequently do not line and I will address this further below.

But what would I do if I had a willsapper and red epic? Heck I’d use them most all the time. But wait, didn’t Troxx just say Frostreaver is better? What gives?! We’ll … the ability to slow? Very nice. Red epic stats and proc additionally are awesome. Trident instead of willsapper? Even better. Slow is non magic and has superior ratio. Beyond that, though the napkin math does have Frostreaver on top, I am a realist. Anyone who mains a warrior knows that the first proc is the most critical. Once they start landing you should never be losing aggro unless your group or raid is being stupid. Using FR you lose 50% procs making those dry spells or late first procs super frustrating. Over time though FR will pull ahead, remain ahead, and pull further ahead. I have (very stupidly) tried to raid assist with my FR twice in the past vs WS + red (and a few early mallet dumps by the MT. What happened both times was that despite the jump with the mallet clicks I eventually ripped aggro before the tanks defensive wore off … to bad outcomes both times lol.

Anywho. I’m happy to discuss but please keep the chest thumping, snide patriarchal preaching, and snark out of future replies Solist.

It isn’t productive.

I asked for some feedback and real life experiences from raid warriors who had FR and some good raid 1 handers. I know the napkin math. I want the anecdotes at this point.

[Toxigen]

I asked for some feedback and real life experiences from raid warriors who had FR and some good raid 1 handers. I know the napkin math. I want the anecdotes at this point.

While all decent in a theoretical vacuum, realistically the most important part of tanking any encounter is generating as much threat as possible, with the most critical time being on the pull / first 30 seconds (especially on slowable mobs). Do you really want to run the risk of that slow 2 hander stringing together a bunch of shitty ass misses at the start of a fight?

The quicker you can get that first and second snap procs and some near guaranteed solid white damage, the sooner you get that tash in for slows and/or allow the rogues to start DPSing.

Its the rogues fault if they over dps and rip aggro. Sure, an enchanter can have a TL box up and tash-bomb on a pull...sometimes that is missed though.

Even on long, non-slowable mobs like AoW: I have never seen a war swap to a 2 hander or sword n board after their disc fades...but most of the time I was clenching my ass ready for my trooper (or korakaz / bvellos) pet to break so I could be wrong here.

Is Frostreaver so far behind that you'd be completely useless as tank if you didn't have your red blade + something godly? No, but if you're in vanq or riot you may be laughed at a little til you get a real tanking setup. There's a reason the best wars on the server aren't using it. I think as soon as you have 2 of the top choices (red blade, trident, willsapper, feverblade, shissar, etc) Dain's prized possession gets tucked away forever.

If you want to make big crip blow numbers via zerk dps you get Vulak, Eashen, or Vyemm 2 hander (primal avatar proc luxury here too).

Sidenote: in single group content Frostreaver is a lovely blend of aggro and big dick crippling blows.

[Troxx]

Super importantly Toxigen, When it comes to melee THREAT … Melee threat is dealt in full whether you minimum hit, miss, hit max or even critically hit. Actual dps on target and melee threat on target are different. Miss or hit, it doesn’t matter. So whether you miss with your axe or hit is irrelevant.

What does matter is landing that first proc and this is in line with what you pointed out above. And as you stated the most critical time is the first 30 seconds and this is where 2h tanking gets funky. You are 50% less likely to land that first critical proc early.

Right before I had to go into retirement I had enough dkp saved up to grab some green scales and finish my red epic. Unfortunately life happened. It was always my plan. In the before time you could also unload a full mallet to offset that nasty random number generator which always likes to hose ya over.

In the 9 months leading up to my 2 year break and since returning I still am impressed by Frostreaver. By far the best option I had for now. I would have liked to rank a wider range of NToV dragons with it but I wasn’t AGs strongest tank so only got to tank a few dragons in there (some minor an a handful of major ones). Never had any problems.

[Toxigen]

Frostreaver is, by and large, the best bang-for-buck warrior weapon out there. It goes for insanely cheap DKP (theres a reason though...the real wars are saving for scales and koi trident).

No one is going to say you can't be on the tank list because you only have a Frostreaver. You just may be near the bottom.

And pardon my ignorance on the finer details of threat generation. I am but a simple elf.

[Troxx]

And that’s what I was saving for lol

[Gannun]

I came to the same conclusion as you a while back on the Frostreaver.

However there is one critical error. The damage bonus is not 37. That's what it is on live.

It is 23 from memory, worked out from the difference between a critical and the actual damage.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

I know the words math, logic, evidence etc are all dirty words on this forum thanks to DSM but you will need to bring more to the table than “Wrong on all counts, by a large margin” if you actually want to have a meaningful discussion.

Anywho. I’m happy to discuss but please keep the chest thumping, snide patriarchal preaching, and snark out of future replies Solist.


They are not dirty words because of me. They are dirty words due to people like yourself who discard math, logic, evidence, etc. because you don't like where it leads. You still haven't disproven the math, evidence, and logic from the 4 man group thread. You just kept claiming "I am right and you are wrong", while memeing and insulting.

I am glad to see you are learning "I am right and you are wrong" isn't an argument. You are getting your own favorite non-argument/chest thumping/snide patriarchal preaching/snark thrown back at you.

Now, to the topic at hand, Toxigen is correct. Trident and Red Blade are typically what I see on the top warriors. This has been true for years.

Guilds try and rotate who the MT is on easier encounters, so other players get experience tanking in a live raid situation. But you aren't doing that with a Warrior wielding Frostreaver when AoW is contested. You are always going to pick the well geared warriors to be on the top of the list, so you get the kill. Having AoW flip and kill a bunch of your rogues isn't an option.

[Troxx]

I came to the same conclusion as you a while back on the Frostreaver.

However there is one critical error. The damage bonus is not 37. That's what it is on live.

It is 23 from memory, worked out from the difference between a critical and the actual damage.


I’m fairly certain it is 37 but admittedly I will have to go back and double check. Current values should be a starting dmg bonus of 28 at delay 28 and then scaling up (monk TStaff being 29 at delay 30). Assuming level 60 of course.

I’m pretty confident AoW would not flip because FR is insufficient aggro. You don’t see FR main tanking … because you use your BEST geared warriors from a survivability standpoint. Best geared warriors generally have far more tools at their disposal … and as I have already preciously stated if I had Trident/red-epic I would use it. I have also, stupidly, but more than once ripped aggro from similar aggro setups.

True/true unrelated.

[Gannun]

Yeah you're right I forgot damage bonus scales with level

[Troxx]

Yeah you're right I forgot damage bonus scales with level

Whew excellent. I was suspicious that was where the disconnect was. I have a saved photo of the damage bonuses broken down by delay and level. I’m assuming your warrior was 54-55 when you saw the low 20s discrepancy.

From 51-60 the damage bonus on FR goes
18
20
21
22
26
27
29
31
33
37

It ramps up very nicely and 43 delay is one of the “sweet spots”

[DeathsSilkyMist]

I’m pretty confident AoW would not flip because FR is insufficient aggro. It’s because you use your best geared warriors from a survivability standpoint. Best geared warriors generally have far more tools at their disposal … and as I have already preciously stated if I had Trident/red-epic I would use it. I have also, stupidly, but more than once ripped aggro from similar aggro setups.

True/true unrelated.

It's both to be honest. Typically your well geared warriors also have great agro generation weapons. They may not be Trident/Red Blade since those are really hard to get, but the warriors who are high on the MT list typically have superior weapons to Frostreaver.

I have been to a lot of AoW kills, and never saw one Warrior use Frostreaver. 100% anecdotal, but that is what you were looking for. Typically from what I remember, when we were training warriors to MT AoW, they were still really well geared. You basically need to get the gear first before you become an option.

Things may have changed since then. I don't raid much these days.

Also from what I recall Warriors sometimes used https://wiki.project1999.com/Whitestone_Shield on AoW. So a 2H weapon is off the table anyway. You need a good 1H weapon to sword and board.

[Troxx]

It's both to be honest. Typically your well geared warriors also have great agro generation weapons. They may not be Trident/Red Blade since those are really hard to get, but the warriors who are high on the MT list typically have superior weapons to Frostreaver.

How about you run some numbers and list the combinations that are flatly superior and if so to what degree.

Remember all weapons have static proc rates (ie no proc mods). Threat is now capped at 400 with the only exception being red blade (500) and any damage it adds on top (DD and dot).

There are no “god weapons” after the proc aggro nerf. Before, there were a ton to include crap like WESS and infestation much less feverblade etc.

All the “good ones” now have very comparable raw aggro procs. Beyond that it’s just a function of ratio and damage bonus.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

How about you run some numbers and list the combinations that are flatly superior and if so to what degree.

Remember all weapons have static proc rates (ie no proc mods). Threat is now capped at 400 with the only exception being red blade (500) and any damage it adds on top (DD and dot).

There are no “god weapons” after the proc aggro nerf. Before, there were a ton to include crap like WESS and infestation much less feverblade etc.

All the “good ones” now have very comparable raw aggro procs. Beyond that it’s just a function of ratio and damage bonus.

I'd defer to someone like Allishia who is still actively MTing in raids.

My memory is at least partially from before the clickie Nerf. I believe tanks liked https://wiki.project1999.com/Whitestone_Shield and https://wiki.project1999.com/Blade_of_Carnage on AoW because it offered more HP, and you could coast on the hate generated by dumping midnight mallets into the mob. The delay on that weapon is low, so you were still getting good white damage agro too.

I never saw Frostreaver used in a big encounter. I doubt that has changed, since even after the clickie nerf having a 1h weapon allows you to use a shield if the encounter calls for it. Not to say you can't use Frostreaver as a backup in certain cases. As Allishia points out she uses her 2H Epic in some situations.

Frostreaver is currently still going for cheap DKP-wise, so I don't think there is something hidden in the weapon that people are missing.

[Troxx]

Hidden? No. Under appreciated? Yep.

And yes I’m very much interested in Allyisha’s input. Last time I ran the napkin math Frostreaver was a fair bit above 2h epic:

-procs: 2h epic has a strong proc (675 from 500+ dd). It runs a 300 threat per minute advantage over Frostreaver.
-damage bonus: 2h epic, though faster, actually generates less DB threat because it’s DB is 34. It works out to 1791 hate/min from DB alone. FR is 1857
-white damage potential threat: Frostreaver at 42/43 is a superior ratio to 36/41 … so more actual dps and more actual “white damage” threat.

Both suffer from the whole … 50% less procs which makes the warrior a lot more vulnerable to the random number generated goddess of eq.

But remember. Damage bonus and white aggro threat are a constant. Once you click attack, whether you hit or miss, have avatar or not, critical hit or not … each swing generated identical aggro that is only a function of ratio, damage bonus, and haste (we are assuming here that everyone hits 100%)

The only wild card are the procs. Given enough time you always settle on average but real world could mean you got lucky with 5 procs in the first 30 seconds … or no procs in the first 2 minutes. Al warriors know this and have been there.

[Naethyn]

Offhand procs 50% less so its really 25% less procs, also epic has 100 hp.

[Troxx]

Going from 2 procs to 3 (2 hander to DW) is a 50% increase. Going from 3 down to 2 (depending on how you look at it … is a 33% drop). Funny how math/numbers work. I just always think of it as a 50% drop in available procs.

What are your thoughts Naethyn?

[Naethyn]

Math is hard.

[Troxx]

Math is hard.

https://c.tenor.com/gy2pftWodqYAAAAC/giggles.gif

Lol fair enough. Best response ever.

I have likely taken something fairly simple and over-complicated it.

I’m a bit of a weirdo and do like to dive into nitty gritty details. Always have. Always will.

If nothing else at least maybe people will recognize that just because they don’t see a thing done commonly doesn’t make it bad or not viable. Most high end weapon combinations involving VP blades, epic, NToV weapons … and yes even FR put out strikingly similar threat.

Just wanted to hear from other warriors who two hand tank. Only Ally thus far has mentioned they have or do (even if situationally).

[Naethyn]

In my experience it comes down to haste. If you have better haste you can use 2h and hold aggro just fine. If you have equal or less haste than you will run into issues.

[Solist]

Being a geared warrior does not make you a good warrior. This server has had a hundred geared warriors over the years and maybe 4-5 good ones.

We use tridents for the slow, and it's a solid hitpoint slot. Its aggro has always been far less than other options.

Back when feverblade was so broken it was laughably overpowered, there was 3? of us using it server wide for years. But the aggro wasnt 'needed' then as clickies and rogues actually worked.

Frostreaver is just not enough hate generation. It is not good enough. That is that. It's a full 30% short on the hate generation needed to keep rogues alive through your defensive, assuming starting with a full totem. Thus you get in the situation your bumps need to be more careful flopping aggro, and your rogues dieing before you.

Any of the top 10 weapons, in either hand, is enough. No 2h is close enough, in 2022, now. They were much further behind pre patch.

Your frostreaver is fine on an engage where you probably have 1 full minute of hate generation, maybe a lady N coth engage? But you'd be stupid not to have a shield on and tash stick then willsapper, then redblade or jaelens or something comparable for the hitpoints and raw AC, until your full chain arrives.

Edit:
We (the server) have enough shit warriors in good gear who fuck up and cant manage threat generation to be 2nd/3rd tanks, without shit warriors failing to make enough hate when actually tanking. That is the job. There's great arguments for dropping a few hate/sec for more HP on say feverblade vs red+jaelens. I often run a red+horn of hsagra offhand on fights where my peak threat gen is set beforehand (tunare, any coth dragon enageg dragon). I'd guildkick myself for using that shit on a dps race like LtK, or something where slows are bombed hard like doze or dagarn.

It's situational as hell though the times I would reduce my threat generation, so some examples would be post slow on (non sieve) trash mobs, sure. VStabilised vulak, sure. Noone is going to out threat you on a vulak while ducking ae's, go ham with red+jaelens or hsagra.

The situation changes too, start of fight vs chain actually established and safe, vs slowed mob alt tabbed. It's all liquid. You could be starting with a tash stick and a shield on a lady nev or zlexak. Then willsapper for a clutch slow, then red+hsagra when proper slowed.

There's great arguments for dumping scep clicks too, bombing slows on dozekar? yes give me 3 clicks initially and 1 for every 20 seconds you go without a proc, that will match a solo shaman's turgur's recast delay. Obviously if you've been lucky enough to get a bump in and blown some totems from out of range it's less of an issue.

Worrying about any of that shit is second to hovering your worts and covering gaps in chain. Having reaper ready. I'd take a shitty warrior with a frostreaver who can cover his own chain gaps with worts early on over a BiS retard every single day - Until the fights stabilised and the rogues start dieing.

The monks and rangers also are critical here too, your threat generations directly changes how they have to behave. If I take 3 top slot flame licks to get aggro when you die, we've lost 4 rogues. That would happen as I'm having to manage my aggro on the ranger too much. If I need to do more than 1 totem 1 scep click on my monk to pull aggro, it means I've had to flop in the fight too late as the war threat is shit. Everything moves smoother and better when the warrior makes the most possible threat. Shit warriors kill dps on tank swaps as they force your bumps to drop too much aggro. It's far easier for me to bump a tank swap when we have a feverblade/redblade than some goose using epic 2hs and I've had to jolt a dozen times. Or flopped 2mins into the fight and am scrambling with tunare fist etc to build as much threat as possible on the monk again to be ready.

[Solist]

Lol we have perma scepter farmers getting paid for it and scepters last me a while thank you! I just use a click here or there if need and only on specific mobs /nod.

I honestly did not know about the cast with rune on, will try that ty!

VS is a gongshow. Generally 2 things happen. Some spaz with low AC rocking -15 ears etc tanks it with a 2hs and drops rune every 4 seconds gets shitstomped on rune drop or , loses aggro and it flips around a bunch. That or the pet breaks and it was the pet who had aggro and the wiz gets summoned.

Max AC gear, plus shield AC, click totems. Throw an offhand on when the DPS arrives.
VS is uniquely the only 'raid' mob (thats duoable....) where AC is the only thing that really matters, probably make the argument horn of hsagra/whitestone should be the only thing used to be honest.

Monks can do same. Really need that buckler of insight on mine :p

[Troxx]

Frostreaver is just not enough hate generation. It is not good enough. That is that. It's a full 30% short on the hate generation needed to keep rogues alive through your defensive, assuming starting with a full totem. Thus you get in the situation your bumps need to be more careful flopping aggro, and your rogues dieing before you.

No sarcasm in this reply … I am genuinely curious. You have stated that FR is a good 30% short on hate generation to keep rogues alive. This implies there are aggro combinations out there that are >=30% more threat than Frostreaver.

Please name them.

We already ran the math for willsapper. Trident is extremely similar. Ratio is better to a minuscule degree but slightly slower application of damage bonus. After the proc, however, the dot does give you a nominal 3.333 hate per second bump from the dot. Many have already established that Trident/red epic is what we see a lot of the best tanks using and we have already run the napkin math on a nearly identical combo back on page 2. Feverblade remains is an obvious threat step up from Trident, so yes I am aware of it as well.

So please … name the weapon setups that are >=30% more threat. Prior to the proc threat nerf there would be no argument from me. I know those setups used to exist.

[Duik]

Speaking from arse.
Could it be a rogues +dps problem and not a tank -dps problem. Did rogues dps suffer similar downturn when hate procs nerfed.
im assuming rog dont equip for hate procs. Speaking pure "math".

[Troxx]

Everyone suffered when procs were nerfed because warriors started generating exponentially less hate. Dd and dot procs were not affected. It was the stun, poison/disease counters (hate per counter), stun, blind, slow. All of these used to COMPOUND AND STACK additively. Now anything that isn’t direct damage or dot is hard capped at 400 hate (exception being red blade at 500 hate).

Infestation used to be 900 threat per proc + 12 + 10 per tick. Now it’s 400 + dd/dot

Feverblade used to be 1200 + dd + dot now 400 + dd/dot

WESS used to be 1200 (disease counters) + blind + debuff (like 2000 hate per). Now it’s 400

[Gannun]

Just thinking out loud.

Does factoring in Defensive's 35% reduction in white threat have a big part to play? i.e. 3% of a big damage number is bigger than 35% of a small number

This could be what's causing the difference?

[Troxx]

To break down some popular weapons, see below. I included a low hanging fruit groupable/buyable option for comparison. Of note I screwed up the willsapper DB math on page 2. It is corrected here.

Damage bonus hate per minute mainhand 100% haste

Infestation 1320
Feverblade 1320
Willsapper 1,188
Trident 1131
Red epic 990
Frostreaver 1858

Proc hate per minute mainhand

Infestation 824 +\- 100 from dot = 824/924
Feverblade 1020 +\- 220 from dot = 1020/1220
Willsapper 800
Trident 800 +\- 200 from dot = 800/1000
Red epic 1200
Frostreaver 1050

Proc + damage bonus only per minute 100% haste

Infestation 2144/2244
Feverblade 2340/2540
Willsapper 1988
Trident 1931/2131
Red epic 2190
Frostreaver 2908

The above is just for mainhand threat from only DB and procs. It does not factor in the threat per second from weapon ratio (white damage potential). Weapons with better ratios like willsapper, feverblade, and trident will absolutely perform better compared to infestation or red epic despite what the numbers above might imply. Above numbers also do not factor in procs from offhand but this can be calculated quite easily. Of the above setup Frostreaver will have superior white threat potential relative to any other combination of the above.

Using Feverblade and red epic for offhand as an example (again only DB and procs for these numbers) clocks in at 2940/3160 (depends on how much the dot actually adds if resisted? I don’t know?) vs Frostreaver at 2908. Napkin math better? For those numbers exclusively yes. For proc reliability - always yes. The question is to what degree does this advantage hold when comparing an 11/18 and 14/24 combo vs 42/43? 2hand ratio white damage is better and it isn’t subject to any extra diminished returns from duel wield, duel wield + double attack check combo on offhand and applies the triple attack boost to the full sum total of the 2hander’s ratio.

I dunno I’m just not seeing it. I would love to be informed of any combination of weapons on project 1999 that are >= 30% more threat than Frostreaver. Gone are the days of insane aggro weapon procs. These days they are all fairly similar, making the damage bonus and white damage threat potential really important.

Again, though, I am a realist and will acknowledge that having 3 procs a minute vs 2 is an important creature comfort for increased reliability and predictability. If I had any combination of willsapper, red epic, trident or feverblade I would almost undoubtedly use them most if not all the time for this very reason. Longitudinally over extended fights … despite the FR possibly generating even more total threat.

[Troxx]

Just thinking out loud.

Does factoring in Defensive's 35% reduction in white threat have a big part to play? i.e. 3% of a big damage number is bigger than 35% of a small number

This could be what's causing the difference?

Neither defensive nor defensive negatively impact threat. White damage potential remains static hit/miss or even 35% reduced from defensive. Static per swing based on haste, damage and delay. Same as it has always been.

[Dogz_SS]

Hi. I have Frostreaver, Feaverblade, Red blade and Shissar. My input - I have used 2h epic to tank VS multiple times without issue. Its not difficult, if dps are ripping from you it's 100% their fault, that fight isn't a race.

Frostreaver is excellent weapon, and I love using it in groups. But for MT raiding I find it lacking. Its just not reliable enough. Where as if I go Red blade MH, Shissar OH or Feaverblade MH, Redblade OH it feels much more reliable.

I haven't done any kind of testing though, it's just my experience

[Toxigen]

If you have your warrior epic you best be using it and not Dain's mediocre 2 hander.

Just sayin.

[Troxx]

I haven't done any kind of testing though, it's just my experience


And your experience is what I was mostly asking for. I greatly appreciate your input brother. I can napkin math all the live long day but we all know that actual gameplay is where the kicker is. You gave me what I was precisely asking for: someone who has FR and other tools and what your experiences were.

Importantly I have to admit I was wrong in my statements about combined dual wield ratios being inferior to 42/43. On this front I was incorrect. I tried to run the numbers of raw white damage threat and it wasn’t working out the way I was expected. Bear in mind there are NO firm/verified equations for this so the numbers could still be fuzzy. Frostreaver did not continue to pull ahead as expected. In some cases it slid backwards.

Combined aggro with level 60 and 100% haste. These projected numbers assume you are 60 and with 255 dex and factors in double attack, triple attack, duel wield impacts on relative swing rates. Using 70% for both double attack and dual wield plus the 12% triple attack rate I have found repeatedly posted. These numbers can never be perfect but it is what the community has held true for a long time.

Infestation + red epic = 6594/6694 hate/minute (dot variance)
Feverblade + red epic = 7275/7495 hate/minute. (dot variance)
Willsapper + red epic = 7093 hate/minute
Trident + red epic = 7109/7309 hate/min (dot variance
Frostreaver = 7174 hate/minute

For comparison infestation + frostbringer is considered the standard “great” aggro combo for non raiders and those just starting to raid.

Infestation + FB = 6345/6445 hate/min (dot variance)

For kicks ran the math and 2h epic = 6976 hate/min. Very respectable.

Takeaways:
-All around feverblade plus red epic are on top and maintains value of 3 procs per minute. Average over time it is between 1.4-4.3% better than Frostreaver.
-Trident/epic has is between 1.2 percent worse to 2% better than Frostreaver. more or less Nearly equivalent on napkin-math but undoubtedly has the 3 proc benefit and is much better on stats and reliability.
-Willsapper and red epic come in 1.2% behind Frostreaver but I’d argue still wins by a land slide because it procs a slow, stat superiority, and less variance having 3 procs vs 2. (Similar to above)
-infestation and red epic come in handily behind Frostreaver. 3 procs are nice but the difference is starting to get big and ripostes at 18 delay hurt.

Most important takeaway: there is only a 14% threat difference between the best group aggro setup and feverblade/red epic combo. I am not seeing anything that is “30% too little to get the job done”. The rest of these “raid weapon” combinations have variance within 5.4% of each other. Infestation and red epic being 10.7% behind the best.


Ps: I am a nerd and thoroughly enjoy hacking through the numbers on a day off. No argumentativeness here is intended. The more we all know the better we all are.

I will say though, for those thinking of swapping to sword and shield for a heavy hitter after defensive … if you have a Frostreaver or 2h epic maybe consider that using that instead. Fewer stats/ac but how much more will you cut down on ripostes while at the same time not crippling your aggro. Seems the be a “best of both worlds” scenario.

[Keebz]

It would have been cool if there was a 2h with a good enough ratio (think Vulaxe) and an aggro proc to truly compete with 1h setups. 2h are so much more satisfying.

[Troxx]

If you have your warrior epic you best be using it and not Dain's mediocre 2 hander.

Just sayin.

2 hand epic: 6976 threat/minute
Frostreaver: 7174 threat per minute

Using epic you gain 5 str, 10 dex, 10 stamina, 50hp, 2 fire, 4 disease, 3 cold, 1 magic, and 5 poison resist.

Using Frostreaver you gain 2.8% more threat and quite a lot more dps output (estimated 11-12% more)

[Toxigen]

2 hand epic: 6976 threat/minute
Frostreaver: 7174 threat per minute

Using epic you gain 5 str, 10 dex, 10 stamina, 50hp, 2 fire, 4 disease, 3 cold, 1 magic, and 5 poison resist.

Using Frostreaver you gain 2.8% more threat and quite a lot more dps output (estimated 11-12% more)


nah meant red blade + literally anything you can get a hold of

(if you got scales you can certainly get a willsapper)

[Troxx]

nah meant red blade + literally anything you can get a hold of

(if you got scales you can certainly get a willsapper)

Ah yep. We are in agreement then. If I had them I would gladly use red blade paired with a wide range of weapons to include WS, trident, shissar, feverblade. Having that extra proc makes dry runs so much less likely. When/if I get back into raiding and have the dkp to afford the upgrades, it has always been my plan.

The exercise in math was enlightening and did show, however, that FR is more than enough to just “get the job done”. It is right up there in the middle of the best possible aggro setups averaged over time. And it does hold a defensive advantage in fewer ripostes received if tanking a heavy hitter.

Plus … I’m a dwarf and big ass axes just fit the fashionquest profile so damn well.

It would have been cool if there was a 2h with a good enough ratio (think Vulaxe) and an aggro proc to truly compete with 1h setups. 2h are so much more satisfying

Oh hell yeah. If https://wiki.project1999.com/Gaudralek,_Sword_of_the_Sky had Frostreaver’s proc …

-would clock in at 7810 threat per minute

[Troxx]

Or they could just give Blade of Carnage the post velious update to be 15/20 and 700 threat enraging blow proc. That would simplify things considerably.

[Allishia]

Feverblade is way way better threat then red blade or trident, just fyi! Like, its not even comparable lol, whether it procs or not, u will get threat. SOD is the best but ya I cant get that soo...

I didn't believe it at first either, but once I got one, it is really all I use 90% of the time. Ty Detoxx / Venice for your testing of agro weps and finally convincing me to buy the feverblade / lady n horn =P

Obviously diff weps for specific encounters.


Feverblade primary / katana offhand or sometimes i swap offhand for redblade. If I need more threat on easy encounter I use the 10/15 horn offhand (has no hp is the downside, but crazy good agro).

Trident is really only good for like krezien, koi, vymm. Ill use trident primary with katana offhand for stat boost.

Vulak is usually katana primary + shield offhand since you want low agro to not rip from the kiters at the start, later on I swap to dual wield once dps is on it / slowd. Red blade primary / Katana or shield offhand depending how many procs / if agro is good. Because dps has to get off it every so often from aoe, you can use shield for a lot of the fight depending on lucky procs.

Aow I do redblade primary / katana offhand normally for max stats / and good threat. Threat is no issue for 1st tank on aow cause it is bumped and you can dump a full totem in it /nod. If 2nd tank Ill usually have gamparse going and try to stay below other wars in dps so I don't die if it drops, but still enough where once bump picks it up I can get agro easily after.

Silence mobs (growth / lady m).
Krezien Flame + Horn (12/17 and 10/15), you will lock agro np /nod.

[Troxx]

Does feverblade still have what seems like an absurdly large aggro proc Ally? All I can go off of is the forums and patch updates since I don’t own one. I do remember infestation being notably gimped compared to its prior self after the nerf.

[Ripqozko]

Feverblade is way way better threat then red blade or trident, just fyi! Like, its not even comparable lol, whether it procs or not, u will get threat. SOD is the best but ya I cant get that soo...

I didn't believe it at first either, but once I got one, it is really all I use 90% of the time. Ty Detoxx / Venice for your testing of agro weps and finally convincing me to buy the feverblade / lady n horn =P

Obviously diff weps for specific encounters.


Feverblade primary / katana offhand or sometimes i swap offhand for redblade. If I need more threat on easy encounter I use the 10/15 horn offhand (has no hp is the downside, but crazy good agro).

Trident is really only good for like krezien, koi, vymm. Ill use trident primary with katana offhand for stat boost.

Vulak is usually katana primary + shield offhand since you want low agro to not rip from the kiters at the start, later on I swap to dual wield once dps is on it / slowd. Red blade primary / Katana or shield offhand depending how many procs / if agro is good. Because dps has to get off it every so often from aoe, you can use shield for a lot of the fight depending on lucky procs.

Aow I do redblade primary / katana offhand normally for max stats / and good threat. Threat is no issue for 1st tank on aow cause it is bumped and you can dump a full totem in it /nod. If 2nd tank Ill usually have gamparse going and try to stay below other wars in dps so I don't die if it drops, but still enough where once bump picks it up I can get agro easily after.

Silence mobs (growth / lady m).
Krezien Flame + Horn (12/17 and 10/15), you will lock agro np /nod.

Sorry you don't got warder loot, imagine competitive raiding.

[Toxigen]

lol

[Troxx]

It really is a shame they had to go and wake the sleeper and ruin the server for the rest of its existence.

[Ripqozko]

It really is a shame they had to go and wake the sleeper and ruin the server for the rest of its existence.

Sorry you don't got, hope that helps.

[Dogz_SS]

Feverblade is way way better threat then red blade or trident, just fyi! Like, its not even comparable lol, whether it procs or not, u will get threat. SOD is the best but ya I cant get that soo...

I didn't believe it at first either, but once I got one, it is really all I use 90% of the time. Ty Detoxx / Venice for your testing of agro weps and finally convincing me to buy the feverblade / lady n horn =P

Obviously diff weps for specific encounters.


Feverblade primary / katana offhand or sometimes i swap offhand for redblade. If I need more threat on easy encounter I use the 10/15 horn offhand (has no hp is the downside, but crazy good agro).

Trident is really only good for like krezien, koi, vymm. Ill use trident primary with katana offhand for stat boost.

Vulak is usually katana primary + shield offhand since you want low agro to not rip from the kiters at the start, later on I swap to dual wield once dps is on it / slowd. Red blade primary / Katana or shield offhand depending how many procs / if agro is good. Because dps has to get off it every so often from aoe, you can use shield for a lot of the fight depending on lucky procs.

Aow I do redblade primary / katana offhand normally for max stats / and good threat. Threat is no issue for 1st tank on aow cause it is bumped and you can dump a full totem in it /nod. If 2nd tank Ill usually have gamparse going and try to stay below other wars in dps so I don't die if it drops, but still enough where once bump picks it up I can get agro easily after.

Silence mobs (growth / lady m).
Krezien Flame + Horn (12/17 and 10/15), you will lock agro np /nod.

[Dogz_SS]

Which Katana are you referring to, Pain?

[Troxx]

To Ally:

Does feverblade still have what seems like an absurdly large aggro proc Ally? All I can go off of is the forums and patch updates since I don’t own one. I do remember infestation being notably gimped compared to its prior self after the nerf.

I don’t want this to be lost. I cannot test this anecdotally or objectively. If the patch notes and forums are correct my numbers are. If some weapon procs are still “epic” and I don’t otherwise know my napkin math could be wildly wrong.

My personal experiences are consistent with patch notes but I, admittedly spent like 0 time with warriors with shissar/feverblade etc

My mind is wide open but my warrior only has infestation, WESS, frostbringer and Frostreaver to play with. Having had all of the above pre and post nerf proc it went from

Lol infestation + WESS = laughably strong

To … prior combo suddenly “meh”

To Frostreaver wins on all accounts (dps by a lot; aggro by a lot)

[Allishia]

Does feverblade still have what seems like an absurdly large aggro proc Ally? All I can go off of is the forums and patch updates since I don’t own one. I do remember infestation being notably gimped compared to its prior self after the nerf.

Its less than red blade but > trident /nod.

Its mostly the white agro from its low delay that helps, + the procs is like 500ish agro? /nod

[Allishia]

Which Katana are you referring to, Pain?

lol you goof
https://wiki.project1999.com/Jaelen's_Katana

[Allishia]

Sorry you don't got warder loot, imagine competitive raiding.

It's not funny anymore, still <3 you :p

[Troxx]

Its less than red blade but > trident /nod.

Its mostly the white agro from its low delay that helps, + the procs is like 500ish agro? /nod

Omg you didn’t address the question!!

Do you *feel* feverblade is more aggro per proc than what we assume?

I can “calculate” crap all the live long day! It’s easy if we assume a 400 threat cap.

[Troxx]

I want to know crap!

The proc Nerf either hit it ALL or skipped somestuff

[Troxx]

And your experience is what I was mostly asking for. I greatly appreciate your input brother. I can napkin math all the live long day but we all know that actual gameplay is where the kicker is. You gave me what I was precisely asking for: someone who has FR and other tools and what your experiences were.

Importantly I have to admit I was wrong in my statements about combined dual wield ratios being inferior to 42/43. On this front I was incorrect. I tried to run the numbers of raw white damage threat and it wasn’t working out the way I was expected. Bear in mind there are NO firm/verified equations for this so the numbers could still be fuzzy. Frostreaver did not continue to pull ahead as expected. In some cases it slid backwards.

Combined aggro with level 60 and 100% haste. These projected numbers assume you are 60 and with 255 dex and factors in double attack, triple attack, duel wield impacts on relative swing rates. Using 70% for both double attack and dual wield plus the 12% triple attack rate I have found repeatedly posted. These numbers can never be perfect but it is what the community has held true for a long time.

Infestation + red epic = 6594/6694 hate/minute (dot variance)
Feverblade + red epic = 7275/7495 hate/minute. (dot variance)
Willsapper + red epic = 7093 hate/minute
Trident + red epic = 7109/7309 hate/min (dot variance
Frostreaver = 7174 hate/minute

For comparison infestation + frostbringer is considered the standard “great” aggro combo for non raiders and those just starting to raid.

Infestation + FB = 6345/6445 hate/min (dot variance)

For kicks ran the math and 2h epic = 6976 hate/min. Very respectable.

Takeaways:
-All around feverblade plus red epic are on top and maintains value of 3 procs per minute. Average over time it is between 1.4-4.3% better than Frostreaver.
-Trident/epic has is between 1.2 percent worse to 2% better than Frostreaver. more or less Nearly equivalent on napkin-math but undoubtedly has the 3 proc benefit and is much better on stats and reliability.
-Willsapper and red epic come in 1.2% behind Frostreaver but I’d argue still wins by a land slide because it procs a slow, stat superiority, and less variance having 3 procs vs 2. (Similar to above)
-infestation and red epic come in handily behind Frostreaver. 3 procs are nice but the difference is starting to get big and ripostes at 18 delay hurt.

Most important takeaway: there is only a 14% threat difference between the best group aggro setup and feverblade/red epic combo. I am not seeing anything that is “30% too little to get the job done”. The rest of these “raid weapon” combinations have variance within 5.4% of each other. Infestation and red epic being 10.7% behind the best.


Ps: I am a nerd and thoroughly enjoy hacking through the numbers on a day off. No argumentativeness here is intended. The more we all know the better we all are.

I will say though, for those thinking of swapping to sword and shield for a heavy hitter after defensive … if you have a Frostreaver or 2h epic maybe consider that using that instead. Fewer stats/ac but how much more will you cut down on ripostes while at the same time not crippling your aggro. Seems the be a “best of both worlds” scenario.

If the nerf hit all weapons equally then this

[Solist]

Ypu can tell he doesnt have an epic, when he is theorycrafting how frostreaver is more threat, with his broken maths. When you use both back to back, you know instantly which is superior. Your math is wrong.

2H epic is just better, go use one. And it's dogshit compared to the 1h combos.

[Solist]

And the reason you sword and board is the AC above worn cap. The sword board engages are critical the tank stays alive. Reread my first post mate, your job is staying alive. You are your most important healer. Your job is to survive. That means healing self, and being able to cover gaps on instant engages. From those 40 seconds onwards you are putting in the most aggro possible.

As I said, not all fights are the same, and not all parts of each fight are the same.

Once a fight is stable, noone gives a crap, you can kill 10 warriors on a slowed mob and it wont kill the raid. If you really think your frostreaver or 2h epic is "1.4%" from a feverblade/redblade, we'd be using them. We dont, not because we dont test everything, but because we DO test everything.

[Jimjam]

Uncapped shield AC not classic. That was from the SoL/PoP revamp.

Lots of unclassic here regarding ac and caps. At least it adds a touch of viability to shields and non-defensive tanks.

[Solist]

Shield bash being a hate generation was in that era, LDoN from memory.

Here since the TAKP code acquisition, it does some interesting things. Testing will show those who are interested.

[Jimjam]

Shield bash being a hate generation was in that era, LDoN from memory.

Here since the TAKP code acquisition, it does some interesting things. Testing will show those who are interested.

I think you're thinking of Furious Bash. I believe there may have even been a PoTime item featuring it?

In the original design of the game normal bash was meant to be big aggro too. The dev's just didn't realise until MUCH later that it wasn't working, and by then it was too late to fix the mechanic and throw out the 'balance' that itemisation had been built around.

[magnetaress]

imho make ur own server and fix agi run speed and shield taunt/bash dmg/agro/threat and make warriors great again

also fix parry and reposte to pre-pop skill levels right now they are nerfed unclassicly u should parry and riposte a lot more at 50 and 100 skill

[Allishia]

I want to know crap!

The proc Nerf either hit it ALL or skipped somestuff

Stole this from detoxx/venice findings /nod

Sceptre of Destruction: 688 Hate
Warrior 2h Epic : 675 Hate
Warrior 1h Red Blade: 600 Hate
Feverblade, Bane of the Shissar: 510 Hate
Wavecrasher / Trident of the Deep Sea: 400 Hate
Neverderia's Horn: 105 Hate
Jaelens' Katana: 120 hate (80 from lifetap, 40 from Heal aggro)

Every swing generates threat based on (Weapon Damage + Damage Bonus) = Threat Generated per Swing. This is applied whether the hit lands or misses.
The weapon bonus is applied as hate in your offhand, even though it is not applied as damage.
Riposte / Parry damage is NOT counted at any sort of hate.

[eisley]

Sorry you don't got warder loot, imagine competitive raiding.

kek

[eisley]

The weapon bonus is applied as hate in your offhand, even though it is not applied as damage..


This is a pretty nice bug btw, it makes stuff like Mosscovered Twig, Barbed Scale Whip, and Efreeti Standard the best offhands.

[wagorf]

have epic, trident, feverblade, shissar, and frostreaver

2h wise epic feels better aggro than frostreaver
1h wise it feels feverblade/epic same as epic/trident, and both get aggro better than frostreaver

shissar blade proc mob usually doesnt stick on me, so its the weakest 1h of among them

[Troxx]

The weapon bonus is applied as hate in your offhand, even though it is not applied as damage.

?

This is the first I am reading of this. Is this confirmed?

[Allishia]

?

This is the first I am reading of this. Is this confirmed?

Yes

[Dogz_SS]

Can you give me some more information on that Allishya please? I have been primarily using red blade MH and Shissar OH, but perhaps I should put Feverblade OH instead? Or even Feverblade MH red blade OH

[Troxx]

Yes

If true that changes everything. DB threat being applied to offhand is not intended, not classic, but if so does actually put dual wield setups at a relatively massive advantage.

If it were possible to duel wield infestations it bumps them up to 7040 threat per minute.

It puts willsapper/red at 7,747 hate per minute instead of 7093 due to an extra 654/hate per minute from offhand DB.

[Troxx]

This is why I started this forum thread .. we are all learning!

The more we all know the better we all are. If Ally is right I have to re-evaluate everything.

Offhand should not apply DB for dual wield. If it does all my napkin math is wrong.

[Ripqozko]

This is why I started this forum thread .. we are all learning!

The more we all know the better we all are. If Ally is right I have to re-evaluate everything.

Offhand should not apply DB for dual wield. If it does all my napkin math is wrong.

Relax DSM

[Troxx]

I'll be honest i'm personally having a hard time believing offhand DB is counting for aggro but it does account for the anecdotes of high end warriors and aggro experiences.

If it is true it is not classic but makes sense.

Regardless it makes my long term plans more secure.

Unlike DSM my mind is wide open.

[eisley]

I'll be honest i'm personally having a hard time believing offhand DB is counting for aggro but it does account for the anecdotes of high end warriors and aggro experiences.

If it is true it is not classic but makes sense.

Regardless it makes my long term plans more secure.

Unlike DSM my mind is wide open.

Fit my anecdotal and tested evidence. I was about to post a bug thread about it when Detoxx posted his.

Barbed Scale Whip is the best warrior offhand, or Nev Offhand (the 'Toxx would know - I don't have Nev Horn.) in pure white tpm.

Doesn't change a whole lot, I'm still using SoD+Jaelens or some Trident variant 95% of the time, but it's an interesting quirk.

[Solist]

There's something magic about actually testing stuff.

Yet still posts and posts later, you dont just go equip a single damage offhand weapon and attack something, count the swings, and see how many random level 1 spells it takes to get it off you.

Let alone a half dozen other major things you're failing to grasp as you very obviously don't and have never even bothered to test based on how you write. So, go test some stuff. Test your aggro, test your supposed proc hate limit caps, test your proc aggro versus mob hitpoint, test your aggro degrade over ticks, test your transfer of hate lists on assists, go test your actual ripost rates versus swings taken, go test how taunt actually works. Go be better, instead of telling the forum you know everything and getting to page 8 on a thread you tell people you're an expert regarding and realise people gave you the answers on a platter finally.

And then maaaaaybe look at some of the first few posts here, re-read them now you know some people have tested, worked as groups etc. You just talk talk talk talk talk. Yet know not even the basics. And people here tried to help all along before giving up and just vomiting it in plain daylight.

[Solist]

Also...yeah https://www.project1999.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3507670&postcount=12

Wrong on all counts, and many more.

[eisley]

There's something magic about actually testing stuff.

Yet still posts and posts later, you dont just go equip a single damage offhand weapon and attack something, count the swings, and see how many random level 1 spells it takes to get it off you.

Let alone a half dozen other major things you're failing to grasp as you very obviously don't and have never even bothered to test based on how you write. So, go test some stuff. Test your aggro, test your supposed proc hate limit caps, test your proc aggro versus mob hitpoint, test your aggro degrade over ticks, test your transfer of hate lists on assists, go test your actual ripost rates versus swings taken, go test how taunt actually works. Go be better, instead of telling the forum you know everything and getting to page 8 on a thread you tell people you're an expert regarding and realise people gave you the answers on a platter finally.

And then maaaaaybe look at some of the first few posts here, re-read them now you know some people have tested, worked as groups etc. You just talk talk talk talk talk. Yet know not even the basics. And people here tried to help all along before giving up and just vomiting it in plain daylight.

Who are you directing your post to?

[Allishia]

Can you give me some more information on that Allishya please? I have been primarily using red blade MH and Shissar OH, but perhaps I should put Feverblade OH instead? Or even Feverblade MH red blade OH

Feverblade definitely better then shissar.

[reznor_]

Not sure why this is a big discussion. Dual 1h, SoD/tanky weapon. I don't support "testing" that says a nev horn, whatever is better in OH slot because OH is like 25% of whatever aggro youre generating.

I can tank anything in the game and not lose aggro to better geared rogues than are on blue, and still live. Toss in a clicky aggro on incoming and you're golden.

[Homesteaded]

What are the top ten aggro weapons?

[Malk]

What are the top ten aggro weapons?

1. Coming home with lipstick all over your face

[Allishia]

Not sure why this is a big discussion. Dual 1h, SoD/tanky weapon. I don't support "testing" that says a nev horn, whatever is better in OH slot because OH is like 25% of whatever aggro youre generating.

I can tank anything in the game and not lose aggro to better geared rogues than are on blue, and still live. Toss in a clicky aggro on incoming and you're golden.

Agro is so they can tash / slow asap, I do not care if rogues die at all :p

[Ripqozko]

Agro is so they can tash / slow asap, I do not care if rogues die at all :p

so a 10 charge scepter, problem solved. sorry you dont got king in warrens.

[Troxx]

And then maaaaaybe look at some of the first few posts here, re-read them now you know some people have tested, worked as groups etc. You just talk talk talk talk talk. Yet know not even the basics. And people here tried to help all along before giving up and just vomiting it in plain daylight.

I see we’re still salty. I know far more than the basics. I admittedly did not know that project 1999 was bugged and is applying DB threat to offhand. Ironically despite your snark you never once mentioned this. It took Ally chiming in late in the thread to bring it to light.

Not classic and I can’t imagine working devs here intended.

[Ripqozko]

I see we’re still salty. I know far more than the basics. I admittedly did not know that project 1999 was bugged and is applying DB threat to offhand. Ironically despite your snark you never once mentioned this. It took Ally chiming in late in the thread to bring it to light.

Not classic and I can’t imagine working devs here intended.

Relax DSM

[Troxx]

Lol ok brosef

[Solist]

And yet without doing any testing herself, ally just blurts shit out.

Anyway there’s a half dozen other things you know nothing about. Enjoy your blinkers. Have a good one.

[Allishia]

And yet without doing any testing herself, ally just blurts shit out.

Anyway there’s a half dozen other things you know nothing about. Enjoy your blinkers. Have a good one.

Venice and detox did the testing /nod

[jolanar]

And yet without doing any testing herself, ally just blurts shit out.

Anyway there’s a half dozen other things you know nothing about. Enjoy your blinkers. Have a good one.

Jesus christ you are insufferable.

[Allishia]

When I get off work I'll post the whole thing detox sent me. I never said I did testing either, just know that what they told me works for tanking dragons and giants...

I guess I kinda do test and proved their testing right cause I try to tank everything when I'm on and very rarely have any agro issues bahahaha :p

The lady n horn definitely kicks butt on silence mobs.

[mycoolrausch]

Weapons and aggro don't matter for the top two raid guilds because they have infinite bodies to throw at every mob. And it doesn't matter for the casual guilds because they have infinite attempts during draft week or w/e.

Hope this helps.

[Troxx]

Jesus christ you are insufferable.

Yeah I’m not sure how he managed to get so much sand in his vagina but he’s been an abrasive twat since his first post.

[Allishia]

Weapons and aggro don't matter for the top two raid guilds because they have infinite bodies to throw at every mob. And it doesn't matter for the casual guilds because they have infinite attempts during draft week or w/e.

Hope this helps.

Lmao no way, aow can wipe a raid so fast if tanks aren't managing agro properly. And the fast engage dragons if you don't get it slowed asap can easily wipe the raid... extremely important/nod

[mycoolrausch]

Lmao no way, aow can wipe a raid so fast if tanks aren't managing agro properly. And the fast engage dragons if you don't get it slowed asap can easily wipe the raid... extremely important/nod

Meh, there's always next spawn if you wipe. Server aint going anywhere.

[Allishia]

Meh, there's always next spawn if you wipe. Server aint going anywhere.

Nooo I have to tank the dragon now! :p

[Allishia]

Detoxx / Venice found this stuff out and after argueing with them that red blade + trident was better, I finally tried the feverblade + low delay weps and agreed for agro, they are much better../nod

Aggro Findings: It is important to note that the amount of DAMAGE you do per swing has nothing to do with the amount of THREAT generated per swing!!
It is also important to note that there apprears to be a 5% proximity applied to hate.

Warriors:

Every swing generates threat based on (Weapon Damage + Damage Bonus) = Threat Generated per Swing. This is applied whether the hit lands or misses.
The weapon bonus is applied as hate in your offhand, even though it is not applied as damage.
Riposte / Parry damage is NOT counted at any sort of hate.

Primary Hand Damage Bonuses
This is the same for all melee classes, but listed here for reference. See the Combat section of Game Mechanics for more information.

Level 28: 1
Level 31: 2
Level 34: 3
Level 37: 4
Level 40: 5
Level 43: 6
Level 46: 7
Level 49: 8
Level 52: 9
Level 55: 10
Level 58: 11

EX: A level 31 Warrior using a Wurmslayer in Primary and a Infestation in Secondary will generate:

Primary: 27 Hate per swing
Seondary: 11 Hate per swing

The same weapons in the same slots used on a level 60 Warrior will generate:

Primary: 36 Hate per swing
Secondary: 20 Hate per swing

This appears to be the case for all Melee classes, but only tested Warrior thoroughly. Rogue was tested, but not as extensive.
__________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ ____________

Abilities (Backstab, Flying Kick, Kick etc..) Do not apply the same hate as regular melee swings.

EX: After doing some Backstab testing, we found that

1. Weapon damage directly affects the amount of hate per backstab. We believe it to be a 6x multiplier and numbers seem to alaign with this.

A Rogue using a 9 Damage primary weapon to backstab generates 54 threat per backstab (108 on double backstabs)
A Rogue using a 12 Damage primary weapon to backstab generates 72 hate per backstab (144 on double backstabs)
A Rogue using a 15 Damage primary weapon to backstab generates 90 hate per backstab (180 on double backstabs)

EVADE: After testing, it appears that evade has a 10% hate dropoff on success and is capped at 500 hate.

__________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ ______________

Spells: After testing several spells with a controlled variable (Flux staff was found to be 50 hate per click) we were able to detemine hate from several Weapon Procs and Spells

All spell damage is a 1:1 Damage to Threat Ratio
All slows are 700 Hate (Drowsy to Turgurs and even Tigirs, Enchanter slows as well)
Tashani is 650 hate
Tasnania is 800 hate
Tashanian is 1350 hate
Mana Sieve is 700 hate

We tested weapon procs with the same spell to see if they are capped because of this post:

Haynar: Capped non-damage hate component for out of class procs/clickies to 400 hate.

This was found to be correct as a Tash Stick was 400 hate using Tashani and 650 hate when casted by the Enchanter.

__________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ _______________

Common Weapon Procs:

Sceptre of Destruction: 688 Hate
Warrior 2h Epic : 675 Hate
Warrior 1h Red Blade: 600 Hate
Feverblade, Bane of the Shissar: 510 Hate
Wavecrasher / Trident of the Deep Sea: 400 Hate
Neverderia's Horn: 105 Hate
Jaelens' Katana: 120 hate (80 from lifetap, 40 from Heal aggro)

Rune Threat: Half the Amount of Rune (If rune is 400, Threat is 200) *Important note that it requires a witness check for the hate to generate so could take several casts / procs

Heal Aggro: Half the amount of the heal done (If heal is 500, Threat is 250) *Important note that it requires a witness check for the hate to generate so could take several casts / procs

[Ripqozko]

So scepter clicks and afk?

[Jimjam]

Tangentially, should aggro not be 2DMG+Damage Bonus? I swear it was on live at some point. Maybe it got changed with one of the revamps to let aggro keep up with boost to spells??

[Troxx]

Detoxx / Venice found this stuff out and after argueing with them that red blade + trident was better, I finally tried the feverblade + low delay weps and agreed for agro, they are much better../nod

Thanks for posting their findings Allisha.

[Troxx]

Using the above calculations strictly assuming 255 dex, level 60 warrior, and 100% haste:

FR =5066 hate/min
2h epic = 5077 hate/min
Infestation/red = hate/min
Trident/red = 5486 hate/min
WS/red = 5507 hate/min
Trident/nev = 5798 hate/min
Feverblade/nev = 5867 hate/min
Feverblade + barbed scale whip = 5415 hate/min

My guess is that hate/swing may be off for the reasons Jimjam says above. I could have sworn it was 2x dmg+ dmg bonus

[Jimjam]

According to this 2003 steel warrior thread the off hand shouldn't be anywhere near as good aggro as primary (on a per swing basis)
https://web.archive.org/web/20110104203607/http://www.thesteelwarrior.org/forum/showthread.php?t=3789

According to this a swing from an 8/20 weapon in off hand is worth less than half of an 8/20 swing from primary... that suggests dmg+db we have here for primary is correct, but dmg+db for offhand is erronious.... at least at 2003 era!

Perhaps the 2xdmg+ bonus is me misremembering or remembering a different era. I may have been thinking of the steamfont / meldrath expansion time. Certainly 2003 era posts don't support 2xdmg+db

[Troxx]

Nah I remember it being the same Jimjam, you’re not misremembering. It looks like Detoxx did some very comprehensive testing so the numbers are most likely correct for project 1999.

DB threat being applied to offhand is definitely not as it should be. It was never like that on live. It should be patched out.

Red epic offhand is producing 654 more threat than it should.
Nevs at 10/15 is generating about a thousand more threat than it should.

[Allishia]

Nah I remember it being the same Jimjam, you’re not misremembering. It looks like Detoxx did some very comprehensive testing so the numbers are most likely correct for project 1999.

DB threat being applied to offhand is definitely not as it should be. It was never like that on live. It should be patched out.

Red epic offhand is producing 654 more threat than it should.
Nevs at 10/15 is generating about a thousand more threat than it should.

Y'all better not get my weapons nerfed or I'll hurt you!

[mycoolrausch]

it would be very p99 to nerf the aggro of an already nerfed class while the garbage blade of carnage sits there mere days out of timeline from being the only good warrior weapon in velious

[Troxx]

Y'all better not get my weapons nerfed or I'll hurt you!

The change wouldn’t necessarily be a nerf. Every other dual wielding class would start generating less threat as well. Holding aggro off rogues would actually get easier.

[Allishia]

it would be very p99 to nerf the aggro of an already nerfed class while the garbage blade of carnage sits there mere days out of timeline from being the only good warrior weapon in velious

Lmao, omg I wish they would put boc in at the 15/20 stats with eb proc, that would be so good. Please custom content that :p

[Ripqozko]

The change wouldn’t necessarily be a nerf. Every other dual wielding class would start generating less threat as well. Holding aggro off rogues would actually get easier.

Thanks DSM

[Toxigen]

Thanks DSM

lol

[Allishia]

The change wouldn’t necessarily be a nerf. Every other dual wielding class would start generating less threat as well. Holding aggro off rogues would actually get easier.

Ok that makes sense ...

[Troxx]

Ok that makes sense ...

It makes sense as long as you don’t consider the casters 🤙

But who cares? Not me enough to submit a bug.

But it isn’t classic!

[Troxx]

Thanks DSM

[bradsamma]

By the way, we don't know what the actual aggro mechanics on live were during this period. We have good guesses but nothing solid.

Anyhow, I just wanted to add that a solid 2h like rocksmasher is amazing in group content even when you have solid rogues/monks in your group. Procs suck for trying to keep aggro in group content. Consistent aggro is way way better.

[hobart]

Detoxx / Venice found this stuff out and after argueing with them that red blade + trident was better, I finally tried the feverblade + low delay weps and agreed for agro, they are much better../nod

If you tell me that Detoxx thinks X+Y is best combo based on his experience tanking mobs, I'd take him at his word.

But you're saying Detoxx tested it? Like with math and statistics and such? Have you heard the guy talk or read anything he's attempted to write? He's practically functionally illiterate. I'm pretty sure he gets his 1040ez done at HR Block. He definitely financed his waterbed.

Venice is a moron too, but he's more socially retarded. Just look at that UN stuff, oof! So maybe the cypherin' was his? Still sus at best.

Your argument was better just saying "Detoxx thinks". And I bet he's right.

[bobjonesp99]

i have build a warrior dps and hate generation spreadsheet that takes into consideration procs. you are overstatating the 2h bonus damage value, it is actually only 18 for a 40 delay weapon. using my calculator and assuming max strength, max dexterity, max haste, max skills, and a level 60 warrior, you are generating about 62.1 hate per second from a frostreaver. by comparison the "starter warrior combo" of infestation and frostbringer offhand is 68.6, the willsapper + redblade is 72.4, and the double sod is 87.5 (yes its that much better than everything else). other 2h weapons like palladius and gaudralek is 54.7 and 56.0, respectively.

[Allishia]

If you tell me that Detoxx thinks X+Y is best combo based on his experience tanking mobs, I'd take him at his word.

But you're saying Detoxx tested it? Like with math and statistics and such? Have you heard the guy talk or read anything he's attempted to write? He's practically functionally illiterate. I'm pretty sure he gets his 1040ez done at HR Block. He definitely financed his waterbed.

Venice is a moron too, but he's more socially retarded. Just look at that UN stuff, oof! So maybe the cypherin' was his? Still sus at best.

Your argument was better just saying "Detoxx thinks". And I bet he's right.

This isn't rnf spaz :p

But yes they tested it and after trying the different combos I agree with what they found/nod

[ScruffMacBuff]

Have epic and Willsapper.

I love using the 2h, but I will admit if you don't get an early proc then you're screwed whether you used a click or not.

[radbeard]

i have build a warrior dps and hate generation spreadsheet that takes into consideration procs. you are overstatating the 2h bonus damage value, it is actually only 18 for a 40 delay weapon. using my calculator and assuming max strength, max dexterity, max haste, max skills, and a level 60 warrior, you are generating about 62.1 hate per second from a frostreaver. by comparison the "starter warrior combo" of infestation and frostbringer offhand is 68.6, the willsapper + redblade is 72.4, and the double sod is 87.5 (yes its that much better than everything else). other 2h weapons like palladius and gaudralek is 54.7 and 56.0, respectively.

where did you get the 2hand bonus damage value from? The only table i've ever seen quoted anywhere is https://lucy.allakhazam.com/dmgbonus.html which puts the bonus damage at 34. But i know this table must be pop era. I'd love to know how you get that value though.

[bobjonesp99]

Pre-Kunark: weapon delay bonus is the same across the board (even 1h, 2h). Since the bonus is not dependent on delay, only level, no point in switching weapons.

Bonus = (level - 25)/3

Kunark: 1h weapon bonus is the same as above, but 2handers get a better bonus. Still, the bonus is not dependent on delay, only level and 1h vs. 2h, so in Kunark you should make sure to equip a 2hander.

2H Bonus for >50 = (level - 7)/3

2H Bonus for <50 = (level - 25)/2

Velious: 1h weapon bonus is still the same as above, but 2handers finally get more tiers. Note that the bonus is only dependent on delay if the 2handed delay is > 44!

2H Bonus for <=27 = (level - 22)/3 Same as 1handers (fast 2handers actually were nerfed in Velious).

2H Bonus for 28-39 Delay = same as Kunark bonus

2H Bonus for 40-42 Delay = Kunark bonus + 1

2H Bonus for 43-44 Delay = Kunark bonus + 3

2H Bonus for >44 Delay = Kunark Bonus + (Delay - 31)/3

this isnt my post, its from another thread. afaik its accurate. otherwise if you use the normal dps formulas, the 2h damage would be absolutely bonkers. on another note, im not sure i buy into the "offhand weapons gets the mainhand damage bonus for hate calculation" notion. i am a believer in white damage hate calculation being equal to (weapon damage + damage bonus) / haste modified delay and it doesn't matter if you hit or miss.... in other words, its related to how much damage you outputting, but its more heavily weighted to how fast you swing than just a pure potential DPS calculation (where weapon damage gets a modifier based on strength and attack rating to calculate actual damage). fwiw, i use my Gaudralek about anytime im not main tanking because its great damage, has an unresistable DD only proc, helps maintain decent hate generation for tank swapping (but not enough for proper tanking or outpacing a tank with agro setup), and most importantly, looks cool af. but you bet your ass i swap to a willsapper and red blade anytime im main tank for hate generation.

[radbeard]

Thanks for taking the time to respond. I had not actually looked at the kunark era bonus specifically before. On our current patch (final patch before luclin) There are 2hand damage bonuses for levels 51+. Is what you posted above just for Kunark and then bulk of velious but not including the October 8th 2001 patch?

I'm talking about the patch here: https://everquest.allakhazam.com/history/patches-2001-2.html

"- Two-Handed Weapons have been given an increased damage bonus for
characters over level 50. Also, certain post-epic quality two-handers
have been improved."


You do mention this:
2H Bonus for >50 = (level - 7)/3

2H Bonus for <50 = (level - 25)/2

but is that the kunark era level bonus or the final near-luclin era bonus? It sure would be simpler if the formula were just public.

[bobjonesp99]

i tested it by dueling someone sitting down (post velious 2h patch). according to my math using the 2h damage bonus value from the following formula:

Velious: 1h weapon bonus is still the same as above, but 2handers finally get more tiers. Note that the bonus is only dependent on delay if the 2handed delay is > 44!

2H Bonus for <=27 = (level - 22)/3 Same as 1handers (fast 2handers actually were nerfed in Velious).

2H Bonus for 28-39 Delay = same as Kunark bonus

2H Bonus for 40-42 Delay = Kunark bonus + 1

2H Bonus for 43-44 Delay = Kunark bonus + 3

2H Bonus for >44 Delay = Kunark Bonus + (Delay - 31)/3


when i did the test my max with was very close to the max hit. then i remember i have AOB items with + atk. when i factored that in, it was spot on. so im faily certain it is correct.

the forumla you posted is the kunark era bonus. in velious you get the additional bonus mentioned in the formula i just reposted.

[radbeard]

Cool. This is very helpful and some information i've been trying to get clarified for myself for a while now.

So does "2H Bonus for >44 Delay = Kunark Bonus + (Delay - 31)/3" only apply lvl 51+ ?

The patch notes state its new tiers of damage for players over level 50 but this formula doesn't include level in it. Does this portion of the bonus damage thats tacked onto the kunark bonus only apply to lvl 51+ characters?

[bobjonesp99]

yes for the "Kunark Bonus" portion you just sub in the applicable following equation

2H Bonus for >50 = (level - 7)/3

2H Bonus for <50 = (level - 25)/2

[Zuranthium]

Narandi's Lance (https://wiki.project1999.com/Narandi%27s_Lance) as 2-hander and swapping in Scimitar of the Emerald Dawn (https://wiki.project1999.com/Scimitar_of_the_Emerald_Dawn) for offhand attack swings between the primary swings looks the best to me (until being able to upgrade the Lance for a better ToV drop). Both weapons tradeable and not super expensive. That scimitar should be worth a ton if people actually tried to play at max potential; it's the highest damage offhand available. The lance would similarly go up in value too if people tryharded.

I tank/dps with:

https://wiki.project1999.com/Frostreaver

You should try offhand swapping with this. I like the Lance more because the 2 extra delay gives more leeway to swap every round, but at the very least you should be able to do an offhand swap every other round with Frostreaver.

[Toxigen]

Narandi's Lance (https://wiki.project1999.com/Narandi%27s_Lance) as 2-hander and swapping in Scimitar of the Emerald Dawn (https://wiki.project1999.com/Scimitar_of_the_Emerald_Dawn) for offhand attack swings between the primary swings looks the best to me (until being able to upgrade the Lance for a better ToV drop). Both weapons tradeable and not super expensive. That scimitar should be worth a ton if people actually tried to play at max potential; it's the highest damage offhand available. The lance would similarly go up in value too if people tryharded.



You should try offhand swapping with this. I like the Lance more because the 2 extra delay gives more leeway to swap every round, but at the very least you should be able to do an offhand swap every other round with Frostreaver.

sounds awful, pass

[Solist]

Narandi's Lance (https://wiki.project1999.com/Narandi%27s_Lance) as 2-hander and swapping in Scimitar of the Emerald Dawn (https://wiki.project1999.com/Scimitar_of_the_Emerald_Dawn) for offhand attack swings between the primary swings looks the best to me (until being able to upgrade the Lance for a better ToV drop). Both weapons tradeable and not super expensive. That scimitar should be worth a ton if people actually tried to play at max potential; it's the highest damage offhand available. The lance would similarly go up in value too if people tryharded.



You should try offhand swapping with this. I like the Lance more because the 2 extra delay gives more leeway to swap every round, but at the very least you should be able to do an offhand swap every other round with Frostreaver.

That has got to be the least helpful, and least user friendly suggestion ive ever seen

[radbeard]

If it were possible to just click the weapons into and out of the offhand slot without needing to store the weapon in your inventory this would be viable but it just isn't with any amount of haste.

You have something like 2.5s or so to do the following and you need to do it every round you want to get the offhand damage.

you need to:
1. Turn off auto-attack the instant you attack
2. pick up lance
3. swap it out for scimitar in inventory
4. equip scimitar
5. turn on auto-attack
6. turn off auto attack
7. unequip scimitar
8. swap scimitar with lance from inventory
9. equip lance
10. turn on auto attack.

Unless you risk a ban automating or maybe use a weighted axe it just isn't realistic. As soon as you mess up once and auto attack primary with your bare fist you've lost more damage than you've gained in many rounds of doing this flawlessly.

[Toxigen]

If it were possible to just click the weapons into and out of the offhand slot without needing to

just described every bards fantasy

[Zuranthium]

That has got to be the least helpful, and least user friendly suggestion ive ever seen

What you mean to say is: you're not great at the game and don't put the effort in to max your character's potential for fights where it's needed. After trying to claim to be an authority about the subject and "the top Warrior on the server". Cool cool.

If EQ was actually a competitive prize-money game, the best players would be swapping all the time. It's a big DPS increase.

As soon as you mess up once and auto attack primary with your bare fist you've lost more damage than you've gained in many rounds of doing this flawlessly.

I know, I've already explained that in another thread. But you don't need to swap EVERY round. Swapping every other round is still a significant increase.

There are ways to make it easier too. You should have a bag opened while fighting, with your weapon in the bag lined up right next to the spot on the screen where you're going to be equipping it. You don't turn autoattack on/off either for the offhand weapon. You should have it hotkeyed in a "weapon attack" box, so you are swinging it manually right after equipping it, and then immediately uneqipping it and slotting the Two-hander back in.

[Allishia]

What you mean to say is: you're not great at the game and don't put the effort in to max your character's potential for fights where it's needed. After trying to claim to be an authority about the subject and "the top Warrior on the server". Cool cool.

If EQ was actually a competitive prize-money game, the best players would be swapping all the time. It's a big DPS increase.



I know, I've already explained that in another thread. But you don't need to swap EVERY round. Swapping every other round is still a significant increase.

There are ways to make it easier too. You should have a bag opened while fighting, with your weapon in the bag lined up right next to the spot on the screen where you're going to be equipping it. You don't turn autoattack on/off either for the offhand weapon. You should have it hotkeyed in a "weapon attack" box, so you are swinging it manually right after equipping it, and then immediately uneqipping it and slotting the Two-hander back in.

I think this really only works for monks with high delay 2handers because they can pick up the weapon and use epic fist then quickly requip the 2hander...

I'm super gung ho on playing my war to the best of my ability but swapping all those weps would drive me bonkers. Only time I swap wep is cause I'm dkp poor and only have a 2hs avatar wep, but I'm also getting to lazy to do that and have just been asking for primal essence.

[Ripqozko]

What you mean to say is: you're not great at the game and don't put the effort in to max your character's potential for fights where it's needed. After trying to claim to be an authority about the subject and "the top Warrior on the server". Cool cool.

If EQ was actually a competitive prize-money game, the best players would be swapping all the time. It's a big DPS increase.



I know, I've already explained that in another thread. But you don't need to swap EVERY round. Swapping every other round is still a significant increase.

There are ways to make it easier too. You should have a bag opened while fighting, with your weapon in the bag lined up right next to the spot on the screen where you're going to be equipping it. You don't turn autoattack on/off either for the offhand weapon. You should have it hotkeyed in a "weapon attack" box, so you are swinging it manually right after equipping it, and then immediately uneqipping it and slotting the Two-hander back in.

Imagine going this hard 7 years after the game was won with no warder loot, hope that helps.

[Allishia]

Imagine going this hard 7 years after the game was won with no warder loot, hope that helps.

You never really can beat EverQuest, it goes on and on and on :p

[Ripqozko]

You never really can beat EverQuest, it goes on and on and on :p

It's done and you weren't there, hope that helps.

[Allishia]

It's done and you weren't there, hope that helps.

Omg I was around! I was just still raiding crappy things in a casual guild :p

[Ripqozko]

Omg I was around! I was just still raiding crappy things in a casual guild :p

I’m not into voyeurism I’ll stick to actually being there , hope that helps.
Imagine getting banned day 1 of velious, that’s all BDA did.

[radbeard]

There are ways to make it easier too. You should have a bag opened while fighting, with your weapon in the bag lined up right next to the spot on the screen where you're going to be equipping it. You don't turn autoattack on/off either for the offhand weapon. You should have it hotkeyed in a "weapon attack" box, so you are swinging it manually right after equipping it, and then immediately uneqipping it and slotting the Two-hander back in.


What do you mean about this hotkey? If you unequip a 2hander while auto attack is active you will trigger your offhand punch almost immediately. I do this with my monk all the time since their fist attacks are significant. Are you saying that you don't use auto attack ever?

[Zuranthium]

I think this really only works for monks with high delay 2handers because they can pick up the weapon and use epic fist then quickly requip the 2hander...

The epic fist has nothing to do with it, that item actually just hurts a Monk if they can get the Ranger +ATK buff, because it decreases their offhand damage.

It's definitely easiest for a Monk to get some extra benefit out of a Two-hander, because all they have to do is click the weapon after a swing and then click it right back in. The delay of the Two-hander for a Monk doesn't matter with that technique, because they just have to quickly click it on/off. The worry for them is again the epic fist being equipped, because it has a super low delay and when full hasted could cause a primary fist attack to happen if not paying attention to exactly when the Two-hander rounds are happening.

I'm super gung ho on playing my war to the best of my ability but swapping all those weps would drive me bonkers.

It's a very annoying task to be sure, like working in some kind of ultra fast assembly line where you have to glue your eyeballs to one thing and spam the same repetitive motion over and over, but it undeniably is a big increase in character performance. Not saying it's a great game mechanic, but competitive gamers in other games have to move their hands even faster to win tournaments.

What do you mean about this hotkey? If you unequip a 2hander while auto attack is active you will trigger your offhand punch almost immediately

You have to turn autoattack off after the 2-hander swing, but what I'm saying is you don't have to turn auto attack on + off after equipping the offhand weapon, as you listed in your 10-step writeup. Those 2 steps can be condensed into 1 step of having a hotkey for a manual weapon attack, which helps to keep the whole cycle going without making an error of executing too slowly.

[Ripqozko]

The epic fist has nothing to do with it, that item actually just hurts a Monk if they can get the Ranger +ATK buff, because it decreases their offhand damage.

It's definitely easiest for a Monk to get some extra benefit out of a Two-hander, because all they have to do is click the weapon after a swing and then click it right back in. The delay of the Two-hander for a Monk doesn't matter with that technique, because they just have to quickly click it on/off. The worry for them is again the epic fist being equipped, because it has a super low delay and when full hasted could cause a primary fist attack to happen if not paying attention to exactly when the Two-hander rounds are happening.



It's a very annoying task to be sure, like working in some kind of ultra fast assembly line where you have to glue your eyeballs to one thing and spam the same repetitive motion over and over, but it undeniably is a big increase in character performance. Not saying it's a great game mechanic, but competitive gamers in other games have to move their hands even faster to win tournaments.



You have to turn autoattack off after the 2-hander swing, but what I'm saying is you don't have to turn auto attack on + off after equipping the offhand weapon, as you listed in your 10-step writeup. Those 2 steps can be condensed into 1 step of having a hotkey for a manual weapon attack, which helps to keep the whole cycle going without making an error of executing too slowly.

Imagine saying competitive and eq but wasn't there when it mattered, hope that helps.

[Zuranthium]

What matters in life is what people want to matter.

Join Date: July 2018

Seems like you should take your own advice though. Or admit that you were previously banned for RMT or something. Why are you always talking.

[Ripqozko]

What matters in life is what people want to matter.

Join Date: July 2018

Seems like you should take your own advice though. Or admit that you were previously banned for RMT or something. Why are you always talking.

imagine thinking this forum account isnt the name of an alt made years later, hope that helps, catch me on ramen sometime and see some warder loot, can we see yours?

[Zuranthium]

Imagine thinking warder loot means something. Not to mention on an emulated server 15 years after it came out. And why would you not use your original account if it isn't banned?

[Ripqozko]

Imagine thinking warder loot means something. Not to mention on an emulated server 15 years after it came out. And why would you not use your original account if it isn't banned?

forum=/=ingame, sorry you dont got, consider yellow. Maybe you can compete for once in your EQ life like you are trying to now. Keep swapping weapons tho thatll surely get you it. hope that helps.

[Zuranthium]

forum=/=ingame

You need a forum account to play the game. You should have an account on here from before 2018. Unless it was banned.

[Ripqozko]

You need a forum account to play the game. You should have an account on here from before 2018. Unless it was banned.

nah you need a eqemulator account way before they moved it to this forum account, hope that helps.

[Zuranthium]

nah you need a eqemulator account way before they moved it to this forum account

You needed both. What are the names of the banned characters you played?

[Ripqozko]

You needed both. What are the names of the banned characters you played?

Sorry you are stuck on this I'm perfectly able to log on ramen and all my other chars in eclipse, consider competing and earning yourself some warder loot. Hope this helps.

[Solist]

You needed both. What are the names of the banned characters you played?

You never needed both.

Never had a forum account in 2009 for first 6 months. Just had an emu.

You talk a lot of shit. And you're not very good, you've never been good. Talk less, and listen more.

[Solist]

It's done and you weren't there, hope that helps.

The day VP opened on p99 was the end of the server tbh. We waited such a long time for that shit. PD dead, screenshot done. Didn't even log in for velious :p

[Toxigen]

welp that escalated quickly

[Allishia]

welp that escalated quickly

Lmao /nod.

But ya I didn't have a forum account till way later too, was having too much fun being a newb :)

[radbeard]

I've never been to ntov but I got a forum account at the same time as my emu account. That makes me ethically superior to all of you right? Am I understanding this correctly?

[Ripqozko]

I've never been to ntov but I got a forum account at the same time as my emu account. That makes me ethically superior to all of you right? Am I understanding this correctly?

Sorry you don’t got, consider yellow. Hope that helps.

[Zuranthium]

You never needed both.

Never had a forum account in 2009 for first 6 months. Just had an emu.

You talk a lot of shit. And you're not very good, you've never been good. Talk less, and listen more.

I needed both in 2011, at least with how the guide was written then; forum posts from other people in 2011 and 2012 also talk about needing both. If you say you had a forum account 6 months after in 2009, then why are you not using it now? It's very curious, people who say they've be on p99 for a long time, and yet have recent join dates.

You are not qualified to be a judge of what is a very good gamer or not (and have no idea about me). I am a better player than you, as proven by the inane things you've written in multiple threads that are factually inferior gameplay. Sorry you're mad about having your actual shit talking being shot down. Be sure to make a video when you learn how to play Warrior properly with a 2-hander.

[bobjonesp99]

the big sweat and big mad in this thread giving me a big laugh

[Solist]

I needed both in 2011, at least with how the guide was written then; forum posts from other people in 2011 and 2012 also talk about needing both. If you say you had a forum account 6 months after in 2009, then why are you not using it now? It's very curious, people who say they've be on p99 for a long time, and yet have recent join dates.

You are not qualified to be a judge of what is a very good gamer or not (and have no idea about me). I am a better player than you, as proven by the inane things you've written in multiple threads that are factually inferior gameplay. Sorry you're mad about having your actual shit talking being shot down. Be sure to make a video when you learn how to play Warrior properly with a 2-hander.

Sirken banned all my forum accounts, and play accounts when we exosed his tits for manastones scheme amongst other transgressions that saw his removal from the project.

[Ripqozko]

Sirken banned all my forum accounts, and play accounts when we exosed his tits for manastones scheme amongst other transgressions that saw his removal from the project.

Some say core is still banned to this day

[Infectious]

I needed both in 2011, at least with how the guide was written then; forum posts from other people in 2011 and 2012 also talk about needing both. If you say you had a forum account 6 months after in 2009, then why are you not using it now? It's very curious, people who say they've be on p99 for a long time, and yet have recent join dates.

You are not qualified to be a judge of what is a very good gamer or not (and have no idea about me). I am a better player than you, as proven by the inane things you've written in multiple threads that are factually inferior gameplay. Sorry you're mad about having your actual shit talking being shot down. Be sure to make a video when you learn how to play Warrior properly with a 2-hander.

Emotional post... Funny how all this knowledge never helped you getting dirt napped on the red server every day.

[Ripqozko]

Emotional post... Funny how all this knowledge never helped you getting dirt napped on the red server every day.

emotionaldamage.jpg

[Duik]

EmotetionalDamage.jpg
Donate now to EmotesCauseDamage.com.
Monthly, weekly or one time donations welcome.
#PledgeNow.

[Duik]

Back to ya great plan. Goodluck! No really.

[Zuranthium]

Funny how all this knowledge never helped you getting dirt napped on the red server every day.

I had more kills on Red leaderboard than anyone, while being undergeared and with less days played, and didn't get dirt napped every day (although that's irrelevant anyway, because dying on purpose to push an enemy group out of an area is a valid strat; sorry you still don't understand strategy).

[Infectious]

I had more kills on Red leaderboard than anyone, while being undergeared and with less days played, and didn't get dirt napped every day (although that's irrelevant anyway, because dying on purpose to push an enemy group out of an area is a valid strat; sorry you still don't understand strategy).

So you had the most kills while letting the enemy kill you because it was a valid strat. LOL!

[Zuranthium]

Keep showing your lack of intelligence. When you're alone and an enemy group is trying to get into an area, committing to nuke them down and dying for it is beneficial. They are slowed down or completely stopped when they otherwise wouldn't be. What does it matter if I die? It's their progress being lost, not mine.

This is an especially ideal thing to do when you can get all your mana back right away after dying, which was formerly possible by drowning. As a Wizard I could constantly come back over and over and dump all my mana on people. This was absolutely perfect for controlling Seafury Isle, since the water and the people you want to kill are both right there. It's nearly instant recovery time and most people were forced to leave when they faced me, as they couldn't keep up with an infinite mana Wizard.

When you're in a guild with PvE'rs who are too scared too fight or too shit, then you may also find yourself taking the "aggro" of PvP, since it's better to divert the enemy attention away from the people who would otherwise get farmed.

Aside from that, I also simply went AFK a lot. Who cares about dying while AFK, it's meaningless when you're just sitting around doing nothing at your bind point, or when you can immediately port back to wherever.

[Soothsayer]

Not to interrupt a lively forum war, but how does narandi’s lance compare with frostreaver for threat? Both weapons have virtually identical ratios and the lance has a DoT effect, which apparently is worth a fair bit of hate.

[Snaggles]

Not to interrupt a lively forum war, but how does narandi’s lance compare with frostreaver for threat? Both weapons have virtually identical ratios and the lance has a DoT effect, which apparently is worth a fair bit of hate.

Magic based dots are almost no hate, and none upfront. They land easy tho so you’re mainly picking up 6dps while it’s rolling and the hate that causes.

The Frostreaver has a stun component so even if it doesn’t land at all you get about 400 hate. 2ppm average would be over double the Narandi dot per minute even if it landed in the first swing.

Stuns (any duration), slows, blinds, ac debuffs, poison/disease counters are all normalized on blue to about 400 we seem to think. If the effect also lands damage initially or over time it’s extra hate.

[Soothsayer]

Magic based dots are almost no hate, and none upfront. They land easy tho so you’re mainly picking up 6dps while it’s rolling and the hate that causes.

The Frostreaver has a stun component so even if it doesn’t land at all you get about 400 hate. 2ppm average would be over double the Narandi dot per minute even if it landed in the first swing.

Stuns (any duration), slows, blinds, ac debuffs, poison/disease counters are all normalized on blue to about 400 we seem to think. If the effect also lands damage initially or over time it’s extra hate.

I see… it’s quite bizarre that a low damage poison effect causes significantly more threat than a magic DoT that’s much more damaging, but anyhoo. Not much of a point complaining about game design decisions that were made decades ago, I guess. :/

[bobjonesp99]

well threat generation worked differently previously but regardless i think the line of thinking is that debuffing a mob is considered by the mob to be a fairly threatening attack.

the problems with narandi lance is... many. first of all its piercing, which has a lower skill cap than slashing. as discussed previously, generally 2h weapons also have less white damage threat than comparable 1h weapons and less procs per minutes (2 procs per minute at 255 dex compared to 2 procs per minute for primary and 1 proc per minute for secondary). the ratio is ok, but unlike frostreaver it doesnt have the stun component to generate additional threat on each proc. its not that magic DoTs are inherently bad threat (in fact, the lance proc is a -100 fire check) but its bad for a few reasons.

general procs threat generation is DD + DOT + spell. the spell portion is capped at 400 and many of the effects (AC debuffs, slows, etc) will hit that cap. afaik, resisted procs generate full threat (i.e. the same amount as it would if it landed). so if frostreaver procs its getting 125 + 0 + 400 = 525, whether it gets resisted or not. on the other hand, when narandi lance procs it potentially getting 0 + 36*18 + 0 = 648... but that will only happen on a resist. since its a -100 fire check, it has a decent chance to land, and when it lands its only 36 threat per 6 seconds... and if you proc again, you get no benefit because the original DOT is still rolling and it doesnt stack.

[Jimjam]

At this point in the timeline shouldn’t dot aggro be frontloaded?

[bobjonesp99]

its possible, but i'm not certain. could probably test by having someone melee a few rounds and then casting a low level dot (with no spell component.... disease cloud has poison counters for example) and seeing if it pull threat when it lands.

[mycoolrausch]

dot aggro only happens per damage tick, if resisted it's no aggro at all or very little

the warrior weapon design in velious being based around piercers, dots, poor ratios, and hate capped spells, is atrocious and immediately fixed in the next expansion never coming to this server. enjoy.

[Snaggles]

Spell aggro is only limited if you can’t cast the spell. Spells with certain components are extremely high in threat. Tash sticks for example for a melee vs the spell cast by an enchanter.

Dot damage aggro isn’t front-loaded. If it was spells like ignite blood and Splurt would act like 1-2k DD’s. They certainly do not.

The limited threat per proc spell effect (ie not having poison counters be cumulative) is annoying but the WESS was never intended to create twice the proc aggro of the red blade. Likewise it’s a truly stupid spell effect. Now it creates the proc aggro of a stun, slow, frostbringer, or ykesha which have some purpose to them. So you can actually pick a weapon that does good damage and has a functional proc, vs being a gimmick.