Can someone explain defensive disc?

[pijan]

It's supposed to be a 35% DR but the math always come out to closer to 40%? How does this mechanic actually work?

[DeathsSilkyMist]

It's supposed to be a 35% DR but the math always come out to closer to 40%? How does this mechanic actually work?

I am not an expert on this, but I can take a guess or two. Please take it with a grain of salt.

First guess is the number may actually be closer to 40% hehe. We don't have definitive proof of what the values are under the hood, or what the exact calculation is. Unless the developers reveal this to us, we can never truly know.

The second guess (my preferred guess) is that the number is never going to be exactly 35% due to rounding and/or floating point precision. Let us look at how much Mana you get per WIS/INT. In my experiments, I found you actually don't always get the same number. At level 60 the number fluctuates between 11 and 12 mana per WIS/INT, depending on how much you increase it. This leads me to believe P99's rounding and/or floating point precision isn't highly accurate. This makes sense because it is an old game. You want lower precision so you can reduce storage/processing. So it is simply possible that rounding and/or floating point precision ends up giving you a bit more damage reduction. When you reduce 147 damage by 35%, you end up with 95.55. Since the damage numbers are always whole, at absolute minimum you are rounding the number down or up, so either 94 or 96.

[Naethyn]

There are only 20 possible hit values in every swing. Warriors ignore the top value leaving 19 values left. Defensive disc allows a warrior to remove the next top 7 damage values leaving the bottom 12 damage values left. If a mob only has "max damage" values in its bag of hits defensive disc does nothing like in plane of growth.

[pasi]

Random visitor from the past strolling through:

Damage = Damage Bonus + Damage Interval multiplied by a random# between 1 and 20. Short hand is Damage = DB + (DI *(value 1-20)).

The Damage Bonus is a static value (until shielding comes in PoP) and is unaffected by defensive disciplines.

Defensive Disciplines act on the Damage Interval side of the equation. Player AC and NPC Attack also work via adjusting the distribution of the 1-20 number that is multiplied by the damage interval.

Avatar of War for example has a Damage Interval off 45 and a Damage Bonus of 254.

So, an example max hit without defensive would be
254 + (45 * 20) = 1154.

Defensive just impacts the distribution of that roll for the damage interval. Basically halves the DI value, so a 20 becomes a 10.

Example max hit with defensive:
254 + (45 * 20/2) = 704.


Thats the mechanics at least. The DB and DI values may differ here.

[Naethyn]

Fuckin love tanking math

[pijan]

ok that makes sense. Thank you for the explanation!

[Bardp1999]

https://i.imgur.com/zG7Adub.gif

[Philistine]

Fuckin love tanking math

[Toxigen]

Random visitor from the past strolling through:

Damage = Damage Bonus + Damage Interval multiplied by a random# between 1 and 20. Short hand is Damage = DB + (DI *(value 1-20)).

The Damage Bonus is a static value (until shielding comes in PoP) and is unaffected by defensive disciplines.

Defensive Disciplines act on the Damage Interval side of the equation. Player AC and NPC Attack also work via adjusting the distribution of the 1-20 number that is multiplied by the damage interval.

Avatar of War for example has a Damage Interval off 45 and a Damage Bonus of 254.

So, an example max hit without defensive would be
254 + (45 * 20) = 1154.

Defensive just impacts the distribution of that roll for the damage interval. Basically halves the DI value, so a 20 becomes a 10.

Example max hit with defensive:
254 + (45 * 20/2) = 704.


Thats the mechanics at least. The DB and DI values may differ here.

https://i.imgur.com/xG17ekC.gif

[Swish]

https://i.imgur.com/jUwA5jk.gif

[Troxx]

Quick note: Evasive is by far the superior disc unless you’re main tanking a heavy hitting raid mob. You could make the case that defensive could be safer if trying to one group a heavy hitting mob with few assisting players or inadequate healing.

But yeah evasive is the way to go for group encounters. 30% faster cooldown and (most of the time) superior damage reduction.

[Naethyn]

Ya evasive is the best. Also don’t get into the trap of “saving” your discs. Hit evasive every time it is up at you are tanking. This was my biggest mistake in the 50s.

[Jimjam]

Evasive is ridiculously good and doesn’t get the rep it deserves.

It is worth mentioning discs reuse timers shorten by a minute each time you ding after unlocking it.

By 60 you’re having 3 mins on 4 mins off. If you manage the pulls well you can ensure the off times you are fighting weaker mobs and on times you’re fighting tougher mobs.

Evasive is so good for CC as you can bring many mobs in to camp and take nearly no damage while everything gets rooted without panic.

Levelling my green war up in the 50s people would always comment how tough my toon was thanks to my fungi. He didn’t have a fungi - he had jar sarth scale armor I just knew how to make good use of evasive / target selection.

Edit: tldr don’t manage evasive for the tough mobs, manage the tough mobs for evasive so you can maximise use of evasive.

[demokatt]

Is there any usefullness of evasive or defensive disc when soloing? I know it says that the penalty is the same for damage dealt but is that really true?

[Jimjam]

Against the mobs you’re soloing you’ll be basically immune to damage with evasive. The reduction in dps output is negligible (does it exist?) compared to the reduction of dps input.

Defensive is kinda worthless against xp mobs as generally their di isn’t huge. Against boss mobs in xp spots, especially if you have ds and now slow it is occasionally useful.

Defensive is acquired much later than evasive so doesn’t enjoy as diminished reuse timer as evasive does.

You can’t go wrong spamming evasive on xp content. Depending on fight length, respawn timer and your level, you’ll probably use evasive every mob or every other mob.

[wagorf]

evasive is the best disc for war

in groups, saving the disc for "tough" situations is a horrible mindset. evasive is considered the best disc because of its super low downtime and long duration.

[zati]

Real warriors use aggressive disc, especially against AoW. Kill the mob faster means you take less hits :crossesarms:

[pasi]

Evasive is "better" in terms of reducing incoming damage when the mob has a relatively high damage bonus in comparison to their damage interval. I had posted a list of the preferred disc sometime in the past 10 years.

From a practical standpoint though, defensive is almost always better for raid mobs* since reducing spike damage is far superior to reducing overall damage taken over a longer period. I think the only raid mob where we used evasive over defensive was in Txevu.

*For exp mobs, uptime matters most.

[Ripqozko]

Evasive is "better" in terms of reducing incoming damage when the mob has a relatively high damage bonus in comparison to their damage interval. I had posted a list of the preferred disc sometime in the past 10 years.

From a practical standpoint though, defensive is almost always better for raid mobs* since reducing spike damage is far superior to reducing overall damage taken over a longer period. I think the only raid mob where we used evasive over defensive was in Txevu.

*For exp mobs, uptime matters most.

Any lifetap mob like VS as well