JBB, is it really that good?

[JeremyDS]

I am high enough level to use a JBB but I would need to sell some of the stuff I am wearing to get one. Is this a good course of action or should I really not worry about it?

[loramin]

Yes and no.

If your Shaman is your first character here, should you stop XPing and focus on earning plat until you can afford a JBB? Absolutely not: it will be faster to level without the JBB, and then earn the plat for it (much faster) at higher levels.

But if your options are "keep some stat gear" (that just gives higher maximums ... which basically won't help you level at all) ... or "sell that gear and buy the JBB" (which adds tons of mana-free DPS, and has a noticeable effect on leveling speed), it's no question: get the JBB.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

It's good, even at 60. You should save up for JBB while leveling if you solo a lot. A JBB will help you more than your stat gear, so it is definitely worth selling the stat gear for it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=umuVBewCNgY - At 60 doing Cliff Golems I can get 5326 damage from it, which equates to 1/6 of the Cliff Golem's HP. Mana-wise that is saving you at least 1200 mana from casting Pox, not including potential resists and casting insidious decay.

[JeremyDS]

Thanks guys, I appreciate it.

[whydothis]

Echoing what they said, it's definitely worth having. If you don't have epic, it's a good item to help you level. Once you have epic, then sell it to fund torpor or a fungi. Then at 60 you can camp it as it'll still have it's uses. I wouldn't buy it if you have epic though.

[sajbert]

Recently got my first JBB ever. Using it together with a Fungi and been using JBB since 46. It's good, I can kill non-stop. Without fungi I'd probably need medbreaks every once in a while but maybe wouldn't be an issue if u were troll.

JBB frequently breaks root so once I got epic if I decide to do multi-rootrotting it may not be used as much.

The thing is, so many camps don't allow for non-stop murder and most 6-12min camps are easy to hold down as a non-JBB shaman. I.e. JBB provides no value in these cases.

Thus I say it's not mandatory, it's powerful but not necessary at all.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Recently got my first JBB ever. Using it together with a Fungi and been using JBB since 46. It's good, I can kill non-stop. Without fungi I'd probably need medbreaks every once in a while but maybe wouldn't be an issue if u were troll.

JBB frequently breaks root so once I got epic if I decide to do multi-rootrotting it may not be used as much.

The thing is, so many camps don't allow for non-stop murder and most 6-12min camps are easy to hold down as a non-JBB shaman. I.e. JBB provides no value in these cases.

Thus I say it's not mandatory, it's powerful but not necessary at all.

You need to change your tactics when fighting with a JBB. You don't root/rot, you face tank with slow, and you have your pet up for extra DPS. It ends up working out to being around as fast as root rotting. If you are engaging multiple enemies just root them away from you and face tank the mob you are JBBing down.

I could get at least 1 blue bubble an hour at level 59 in PoM Rat Maze without root/rotting and using JBB face tanking.

EDIT: It has been a while since I did this tactic. I believe I also had the pet tank the mob at times to reduce the amount of damage taken personally. This works well since pets have fast regeneration.

[greenspectre]

I had epic and JBB with me in Bear Pits at 59, and can definitely say I got lots of use out of the JBB there. Yes it tends to break root, but there would be situations where I'd have gotten 3 bears on accident, and have 3 rooted with epic DoT's going. While that does lend more to the power of the epic, having a JBB allowed me to burn one bear down at a time while saving all of my mana for roots and emergency heals. Without JBB a situation like that would have been much harder to pull out of.

So even if you're not slow-tanking with JBB as your DPS, that thing still slaps.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

I had epic and JBB with me in Bear Pits at 59, and can definitely say I got lots of use out of the JBB there. Yes it tends to break root, but there would be situations where I'd have gotten 3 bears on accident, and have 3 rooted with epic DoT's going. While that does lend more to the power of the epic, having a JBB allowed me to burn one bear down at a time while saving all of my mana for roots and emergency heals. Without JBB a situation like that would have been much harder to pull out of.

So even if you're not slow-tanking with JBB as your DPS, that thing still slaps.

Oh yeah, if you have both JBB and Epic while leveling you can mix and match tactics better. When I was leveling I didn't have Epic, so my strategy was completely focused on saving mana via JBB.

[oldschoolguy]

I wouldn't go out of the way for it, but I don't play shaman. I can only share a similar druid experience since they have pretty much same clickies, just different name.

I played a druid to 60. I had 2 dps clickies, epic clicky eventually, and the bracer (druid version of JBB). I literally stopped using the bracer early on because the damage is too low for farming or leveling, and cast time is too long. It was cool mana free damage for a few levels for rare situations, but it just became easier to use normal spells and not waste time on this slow casting bracer.

Not sure if it's same for shaman, but seems similar.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

I wouldn't go out of the way for it, but I don't play shaman. I can only share a similar druid experience since they have pretty much same clickies, just different name.

I played a druid to 60. I had 2 dps clickies, epic clicky eventually, and the bracer (druid version of JBB). I literally stopped using the bracer early on because the damage is too low for farming or leveling, and cast time is too long. It was cool mana free damage for a few levels for rare situations, but it just became easier to use normal spells and not waste time on this slow casting bracer.

Not sure if it's same for shaman, but seems similar.

It's better on a Shaman. Shaman's can't kite like Druids do. The free damage clickie is very nice, and saves a ton of mana. Before Torpor this is key to leveling quickly.

For Druids it's better to kite and use https://wiki.project1999.com/Luminescent_Staff . Sadly Shaman's don't have good snares or good AoE.

[Danth]

It's better on a Shaman. Shaman's can't kite like Druids do. The free damage clickie is very nice, and saves a ton of mana. Before Torpor this is key to leveling quickly.

Pre-Torpor the bracer's a nobrainer if available. Post-Torpor the bracer's more of a wash: the slow cast time means a shaman can sustain similar damage (little more, little less, depending on the whims of resists and fizzles) by casting and canni'ing as he can by using the bracer click. Bracer click is less work though to do the same job.

Danth

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Pre-Torpor the bracer's a nobrainer if available. Post-Torpor the bracer's more of a wash: the slow cast time means a shaman can sustain similar damage (little more, little less, depending on the whims of resists and fizzles) by casting and canni'ing as he can by using the bracer click. Bracer click is less work though to do the same job.

Danth

It's still useful at 60 in some fights.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=umuVBewCNgY

It's great for dealing damage when you want your pet to tank. In this case it's harder to use your Poison/Disease DoTs due to how much hate they generate. In this video I did 5000 damage to the Cliff Golem with just bracer, which is 1/6 of it's total life.

[greenspectre]

Just wanting to jump on here and point out that if green 2.0 lets you still cast spells while sitting like 1.0 did (before instant interrupt ducking), JBB is basically cheating during that time period.

[zelld52]

Yes. At level 45 its ridiculous. Root mob, cast 5 JBB clicks and mob is dead. This worked in Cazic Thule. I did 46-49 in about 3 hours on Bloodgills doing this. Went to CoM, and did 49-51 in about 3 more hours with JBB. WHen I got turgurs, I slowed mobs, tanked, and clicked JBB while pet was behind mob. Worked like a charm.

By level 53/54, I didn't use it as much, and switched to slow tanking, epic click and pet DPS. By 55, I was root rotting bears in perma, and didn't use it.

When I hit 60 I started using it alot more often. It's great for finishing off mobs, when the epic click wears off.

[JeremyDS]

Thanks everyone, I have one now =) The rest of my gear isn't nearly as good anymore but Spamming JBB while slow tanking is working great.

[unleashedd]

When facetanking and jbb clicking, any point to haste myself? I assume no. Hasted pet? Spirit quickening or alacrity?

[DeathsSilkyMist]

When facetanking and jbb clicking, any point to haste myself? I assume no. Hasted pet? Spirit quickening or alacrity?

You would haste your pet, yes. Alacrity, the spirit quickening spell is sadly useless. You just get it to complete your spellbook and never touch it again.

As for hasting yourself, you don't need to. Once you get to the point where you can click JBB, Shaman melee starts to fall off. Shaman melee is awesome from 1-40.

[Danth]

As for hasting yourself, you don't need to.

Might even do the opposite. I know one shaman who has the winter's roar proc hammer. He slows himself to maximize per-swing proc chance then leaves attack on in battle and it swings between Jaundiced Bone Bracer bracer clicks. It works well enough in practice that I thought it was a neat idea.

Danth

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Might even do the opposite. I know one shaman who has the winter's roar proc hammer. He slows himself to maximize per-swing proc chance then leaves attack on in battle and it swings between Jaundiced Bone Bracer bracer clicks. It works well enough in practice that I thought it was a neat idea.

Danth

Yeah that's not a bad idea if you have a decent proc weapon like the Spiritist Hammer or Blight, Hammer of the Scourge.

However, if you have a Fungi Staff I would recommend using that at 45+. Keeps your regen up for free and acts as a GCD item too. Fungi Staff needs a lot of swapping in and out if you want to use another weapon, and for me it's way too annoying. The buff only lasts 5 mins and you may need to switch to SoW.

[ya.dingus]

It's good, even at 60. You should save up for JBB while leveling if you solo a lot. A JBB will help you more than your stat gear, so it is definitely worth selling the stat gear for it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=umuVBewCNgY - At 60 doing Cliff Golems I can get 5326 damage from it, which equates to 1/6 of the Cliff Golem's HP. Mana-wise that is saving you at least 1200 mana from casting Pox, not including potential resists and casting insidious decay.

Perfect example when FSI doesnt do anything for you but regen would.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Perfect example when FSI doesnt do anything for you but regen would.

The regen did nothing that fight. FSI would have helped if I screwed up and got summoned.

On a 20 minute fight I would get 1600 HP as a Troll with standing Regen (+8 HP per tick). That is 1 Torpor if you get a 1500 HP Torpor on server Tick. That would save me a grand total of 30 seconds recovering after the fight. Cliff Golems have a 6 minute respawn, and I can get to full HP/Mana in 3 minutes:) It is 100% useless generally speaking with Torpor.

[ya.dingus]

The regen did nothing that fight. FSI would have helped if I screwed up and got summoned.

On a 20 minute fight I would get 1600 HP as a Troll with standing Regen (+8 HP per tick). That is 1 Torpor if you get a 1500 HP Torpor on server Tick. That would save me a grand total of 30 seconds recovering after the fight. Cliff Golems have a 6 minute respawn, and I can get to full HP/Mana in 3 minutes:) It is 100% useless generally speaking with Torpor.

Hey, whatever you say man. We both know the math agrees with me.

Also standing it's 12 regen, not 8.

Only a person who ignores math thinks regen is useless.

Here's the wiki so you can brush up on your eq knowledge. Might help you change your opinion to the obvious right answer. Or you can keep being wrong, no skin off my nose. I tried.

https://wiki.project1999.com/Troll_Regen#Increased_HP_Regeneration

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Hey, whatever you say man. We both know the math agrees with me.

Also standing it's 12 regen, not 8.

Only a person who ignores math thinks regen is useless.

Here's the wiki so you can brush up on your eq knowledge. Might help you change your opinion to the obvious right answer. Or you can keep being wrong, no skin off my nose. I tried.

https://wiki.project1999.com/Troll_Regen#Increased_HP_Regeneration

It's 8 because that is the difference between Ogre Regen and Troll Regen (12-4). You don't count the full 12 because Ogres regenerate too.

The math agrees with me:) The regen is too slow to save you mid fight, and the total HP saved isn't enough to increase my kills per hour. What else do you think Regeneration is doing? If you are camping Cliff Golems, for example, you will be at 100% HP and Mana as both a Troll and an Ogre by the time the respawn timer hits. There is no difference between a 3 minute recovery time and a 3 minute 30 second recovery time when it takes 6 minutes to respawn. You will get the exact same number of kills per hour as an Ogre or a Troll.

[Duik]

JBB, is it any good?
Yes, cliff golems need 5000 hp from them and regen (natural OR spells) makes no difference @ lvl60 with Torpor.
For future reference, this is THE ANSWER TO EVERY QUESTION, EVER.

[Snaggles]

Good idea. Bump a 4 month old thread about a JBB to argue about FSI.

Let’s see if we can get a thread in each section going concurrently bickering about racial perks that don’t matter.

[Danth]

More significantly, were the cliff golems changed with the recent patches? I know the wiki says they hit for 220's and have 30K life, but having fought hundreds of them over the years, I'd put them at something around or a bit under 20K with a max hit of something like 176. I have, however, not visited those since the last couple patches. That's a fairly significant update if things changed.

Danth

[DeathsSilkyMist]

More significantly, were the cliff golems changed with the recent patches? I know the wiki says they hit for 220's and have 30K life, but having fought hundreds of them over the years, I'd put them at something around or a bit under 20K with a max hit of something like 176. I have, however, not visited those since the last couple patches. That's a fairly significant update if things changed.

Danth

I think the 30K HP estimate was true when I recorded that video. In the description I mathed out my own damage, and I did a total of 19K. In my video showing pet DPS, I was getting an average of around 17DPS on Sebilis Mobs. I would say the pet is attacking for roughly 16 minutes total in the video, maybe a bit more. 17 x 60 x 16 = 16,320. When you consider HP regeneration + the fact that Cliff Golems are higher level than Sebilis mobs, the total damage of my pet being at least 10k is quite plausible. I would need to add up the numbers in the logs to confirm, and I am too lazy to do it at the moment. But I doubt my pet only did like 3K damage based on the DPS numbers I have run previously on Shaman pets.

[Danth]

Max was definitely 170's, I think 176. I've seen a lot of hits in the 170's over the years, certainly none over 200, not even any 190's/etc. The health I was less certain about since it was an estimate to begin with. Now I feel like I need to go check in more detail.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Max was definitely 170's, I think 176. I've seen a lot of hits in the 170's over the years, certainly none over 200, not even any 190's/etc. The health I was less certain about since it was an estimate to begin with. Now I feel like I need to go check in more detail.

Yeah I don't think I have ever seen a Cliff Golem hit for over 200 either.

EDIT: Watching through my Cliff Golem video, I haven't seen a number higher than 172.

[Danth]

Yeah I don't think I have ever seen a Cliff Golem hit for over 200 either.

EDIT: Watching through my Cliff Golem video, I haven't seen a number higher than 172.



Yeah it's 172, not 176. Like I said, been awhile. Damage interval is I think 7, next hit down should be 165, then 158, and so on.

[Crede]

It's 8 because that is the difference between Ogre Regen and Troll Regen (12-4). You don't count the full 12 because Ogres regenerate too.

The math agrees with me:) The regen is too slow to save you mid fight, and the total HP saved isn't enough to increase my kills per hour. What else do you think Regeneration is doing? If you are camping Cliff Golems, for example, you will be at 100% HP and Mana as both a Troll and an Ogre by the time the respawn timer hits. There is no difference between a 3 minute recovery time and a 3 minute 30 second recovery time when it takes 6 minutes to respawn. You will get the exact same number of kills per hour as an Ogre or a Troll.

I think you underestimate the concept of an APM bucket. Every human has one. There’s only so many actions we can take before we start getting lazy. If a troll/iksar shaman decides they want to sit and not canni the regen advantage goes up to 11. That is no joke. And depending on situation that could be perfectly acceptable. I’ve worn a fungi on so many chars that getting an extra chloro buff of 10hp/tick is a night and day difference. I don’t even notice when fungi is on but I notice when I have chloro. In a game of inches, which is what this is, having to cast less torpor’s per hour(and subsequently having to cast more canni to offset that) should not be taken lightly.

I would agree that FSI is the best trait for a soloing torpor shaman. But to have a constant 8-11 extra hp/tick at level 60 is still a big deal.

At the end of the day it’s ~chloroplast/clicky snare(even if shitty it’s enough to make up inches) vs a ~33% chance to not get stunned. This is precisely why nobody will ever agree on the best shaman race.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

I think you underestimate the concept of an APM bucket. Every human has one. There’s only so many actions we can take before we start getting lazy. If a troll/iksar shaman decides they want to sit and not canni the regen advantage goes up to 11. That is no joke. And depending on situation that could be perfectly acceptable. I’ve worn a fungi on so many chars that getting an extra chloro buff of 10hp/tick is a night and day difference. I don’t even notice when fungi is on but I notice when I have chloro. In a game of inches, which is what this is, having to cast less torpor’s per hour(and subsequently having to cast more canni to offset that) should not be taken lightly.

I would agree that FSI is the best trait for a soloing torpor shaman. But to have a constant 8-11 extra hp/tick at level 60 is still a big deal.

At the end of the day it’s ~chloroplast/clicky snare(even if shitty it’s enough to make up inches) vs a ~33% chance to not get stunned. This is precisely why nobody will ever agree on the best shaman race.

I 100% agree if you want a specific racial because you want to play a specific way, that is fine. There is nothing wrong with a Torpor Shaman being lazy and AFK recovering.

All I am trying to say is min/max doesn't take individual things like APM into account. Min/max is objective, and assumes you are playing optimally. This means you are always canni/torporing when not at full HP/MP. If you can't do that due to disabilities, or are lazy, that doesn't change the objective facts. It simply changes which racial is better for your specific case.

I prefer people have the objective facts. Then they can use those facts to make the best decision for them personally. It's better than everybody bringing 100s of slightly different subjective opinions, because you can never get to the truth that way. This is a video game, built on math and rules. There is an objectively best way to play, and people should know what it is. Then they can choose whether or not they want to play that way.

[Snaggles]

At the end of the day it’s ~chloroplast/clicky snare(even if shitty it’s enough to make up inches) vs a ~33% chance to not get stunned. This is precisely why nobody will ever agree on the best shaman race.

You can see regen working in real time.
FSI would need extensive parsing and record keeping. You would likely need a 60 warrior slamming off CD (not timing to spells) and two 60 shams with similar gear but Ogre and Other.

The issue with FSI is why would anyone take the time with math and record keeping when you can just posture on the forums claiming it’s noticeably better? That’s far easier than doing math or killing a bunch of things and putting yourself on this list:

https://wiki.project1999.com/Solo_Artist_Challenge_Hall_of_Fame

[DeathsSilkyMist]

You can see regen working in real time.
FSI would need extensive parsing and record keeping. You would likely need a 60 warrior slamming off CD (not timing to spells) and two 60 shams with similar gear but Ogre and Other.

The issue with FSI is why would anyone take the time with math and record keeping when you can just posture on the forums claiming it’s noticeably better? That’s far easier than doing math or killing a bunch of things and putting yourself on this list:

https://wiki.project1999.com/Solo_Artist_Challenge_Hall_of_Fame

You can see FSI working in real time too. I never get stunned on my Ogre from bashes. You can watch my videos, I never get stunned.

Regeneration is very easy to math out how useful it is (or isn't).

[Snaggles]

Yea I’ve never noticed a single bash interrupt (certainly never died from one). I don’t record video and watch my performance back though.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Yea I’ve never noticed a single bash interrupt (certainly never died from one). I don’t record video and watch my performance back though.

Yeah it can be tough to notice. I play both Ogre and non-Ogre characters, so I do notice the difference. The chances are basically zero that during the multiple hours of recorded video I have on my channel, I wouldn't get a single bash that had the stun proc.

[Toxigen]

iksar bis b/c robe sorry no jbb hope this helped

[Crede]

I 100% agree if you want a specific racial because you want to play a specific way, that is fine. There is nothing wrong with a Torpor Shaman being lazy and AFK recovering.

All I am trying to say is min/max doesn't take individual things like APM into account. Min/max is objective, and assumes you are playing optimally. This means you are always canni/torporing when not at full HP/MP. If you can't do that due to disabilities, or are lazy, that doesn't change the objective facts. It simply changes which racial is better for your specific case.

I prefer people have the objective facts. Then they can use those facts to make the best decision for them personally. It's better than everybody bringing 100s of slightly different subjective opinions, because you can never get to the truth that way. This is a video game, built on math and rules. There is an objectively best way to play, and people should know what it is. Then they can choose whether or not they want to play that way.

Unfortunately there’s no data to say that FSI will save you over the 80-160 extra regen hp in a 1-2 minute long pre slow situation. Especially given the fact that the best solo artist shaman was a barbarian. This is why people tend to favor regen over FSi. It’s something hard and measurable. We know it will give you more hp. We don’t know if FSI will ever actually do anything. And I don’t think there’s a documented case of it ever saving someone’s life. If it’s not saving someone’s life, it’s more of an annoyance if anything.

[Crede]

iksar bis b/c robe sorry no jbb hope this helped

I concur. Best fashion regen and best resists/size. Jbb is a fun toy but unnecessary.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Unfortunately there’s no data to say that FSI will save you over the 80-160 extra regen hp in a 1-2 minute long pre slow situation. Especially given the fact that the best solo artist shaman was a barbarian. This is why people tend to favor regen over FSi. It’s something hard and measurable. We know it will give you more hp. We don’t know if FSI will ever actually do anything. And I don’t think there’s a documented case of it ever saving someone’s life. If it’s not saving someone’s life, it’s more of an annoyance if anything. We don’t even know if will allow a shaman to get a solo off faster. Since turgurs has a 6 second recast time.

There isn't any data to show that extra HP/Regen will save you either:) You actually need to record a fight and check moment to moment how much HP you would have with and without Regen. Even if you can point to a specific point in the fight where you would be dead if you didn't have the extra HP/Regen, that doesn't take into account the fact that you probably would have played a bit differently due to noticing your HP being lower.

In reality both FSI and Regen have a very small percent chance to save you from dying specifically throughout the duration of a fight. You don't need data to understand this point. It is simply a non-zero percentage that is small in both cases.

FSI is better with Torpor because FSI can ALSO make the pre-slow phase of a fight easier (the first minute or so). Being able to land a slow a few seconds earlier (due to not having to recast it because of an interrupt) can easily save you 100s of HP due to having the mob slowed a few seconds earlier. This could be the difference between having to gate, and stabilizing the fight.

Nobody is claiming Regeneration or FSI is required to beat content, so the point about the Barbarian is irrelevant. We are simply determining which racial is better, not which one is required. Neither are.

[skorge]

It’s funny you guys are debating racial traits this far into the server. I had this same debate on these forums way back in 2010.

I used to think that regen was the better trait to have. So, my first toon here was a troll shaman (he’s level 60 now). When Red launched I was there and rolled an ogre shaman. I actually dinged him all the way to 60.

I then bought a 60 barb shaman account bound at firepots way back when u could buy accounts. So, I have experience on a level 60 ogre, troll, and barb.

I am here to tell you that FSI is the best trait to have if given the chance to have it. It’s not only best for high end mobs but also when you are farming green and weaker blue mobs. Why? Because it means you never have to worry about recasting a spell, which in return means less clicking, which in return means better quality of life.

As a 60 barb with epic farming in Droga, those gobs can interrupt your clickies. Not on an ogre. It means you can play very lazy on an ogre shaman which is good when you multi tasking.

FSI saved my ogre shaman quite a few times as well while on Red. FSI should be looked at it’s main value which is better QOL. Every interrupt you have on a troll, iksar or barb, an ogre doesn’t have.

I think people who argue against FSI just have not played an ogre to 60. Level an ogre to 60 and play it some and then evaluate it again

[ya.dingus]

No math in actual post saying FSI is good.

mobs get their secondary attack every 8 seconds, bash instead instead of kick 75% of the time, hit 50% of the time, and stun 50% of their hits. So if the mob isn't hasted you'll be spending roughly 2 seconds out of 40 (5%) of your time stunned. Depending on how fast your weapons are, that's some 2-3% of your threat and damage (your weapons will be ready as soon as you aren't stunned, so you don't lose all of the time) which isn't gamebreaking but is certainly nice.

Yeah, I remain unconvinced. The numbers don't lie.

https://wiki.project1999.com/Sakuragi%27s_Warrior_Guide

Talks about QOL but conveniently leaving out the fact you'll suffer from permanent wisdom deprivation, clogged artery impersonation in dungeons (have fun with shrink, nerd), having the largest amount of stat loss due to overcapping (lol, how's that 140 str now?), vanilla regen status, and the lowest tier scores on fasionquest.

I play all humans, and I do so knowing that they may not be the *best* because I like fashionquest. That's based.

You play Ogre because you think it's the *best*, despite the sacrifices you need to make for a sh*tty 5% margin that is entirely situational. (Also bash still interrupts spells a portion of the time despite being immune to the stun potion. Which as you can see, doesn't even happen all the time for non-ogres when they're bashed too) That's being a mouth breather.

In short, get wrekt.

[Jimjam]

. Every interrupt you have on a troll, iksar or barb, an ogre doesn’t have.

Fake news which questions the validity of your entire post tbh.

That said, i agree FSI is super convenient for when tanking a whole bunch of mobs.

[ya.dingus]

Fake news which questions the validity of your entire post tbh.

That said, i agree FSI is super convenient for when tanking a whole bunch of mobs.

I've said it before and I'll say it again:

If you're tanking a wall of at level mobs, you're dead.

If you're tanking a wall of green mobs, if they're beyond a certain range their bash not only rarely hits, it also doesn't stun.

You guys would know this if you played any race other than ogre, or did your homework on the actual game mechanics.

In short - you can chalk this to another demonstrably false situational statement that ogre players love to regurgitate in an effort to supply a never ending stream of copium for inhalation so that they can tolerate looking at their character thinking sacrificing 90% of their play quality for 5% of a margin is a good trade.

[Jimjam]

I've said it before and I'll say it again:

If you're tanking a wall of at level mobs, you're dead.

If you're tanking a wall of green mobs, if they're beyond a certain range their bash not only rarely hits, it also doesn't stun.

The thrust of what you say is true, but come on, it doesn't just flip between one state and the other. There is a middle ground of levels where mobs can have a chance to stun you AND you have a reasonable chance of surviving a few of them.

Not relevant to ogres, but you'll occasionally see low level clerics grabbing a bunch of weak xp mobs, to kill them with repeated word of pains. From my observations they have to take steps to mitigate their lack of FSI - they kite the mobs into a ball (which also helps to circumvent the cool down on PBAoEs), let the mobs all get into melee range at the same instant and then after that first wave of attacks/bashes they begin to cast their pbaoe.

Is there scope for JBB shaman to adopt similar tactics? Are ogres better because they don't need to eat the first wave of attacks? IDK. I'm not sure how relevant killing swarms of greens / very low blues with JBB is tbh (since JBB is the context of the discussion).

[DeathsSilkyMist]

I've said it before and I'll say it again:

If you're tanking a wall of at level mobs, you're dead.

If you're tanking a wall of green mobs, if they're beyond a certain range their bash not only rarely hits, it also doesn't stun.

You guys would know this if you played any race other than ogre, or did your homework on the actual game mechanics.

In short - you can chalk this to another demonstrably false situational statement that ogre players love to regurgitate in an effort to supply a never ending stream of copium for inhalation so that they can tolerate looking at their character thinking sacrificing 90% of their play quality for 5% of a margin is a good trade.

I am not sure what you are talking about here. I play Ogres and non-Ogres. You don't need to tank multiple mobs for FSI to be good. It's really simple:

https://youtu.be/igpbLuNe0ls?t=440

If you look at the video, I get bashed at the end of casting Turgur's Insects. My cast GOES THOUGH.

https://youtu.be/uEgFcImQ9XU?t=18

To get an idea of the DPS of an unslowed WW Dragon, I take a total of 993 damage during those two slow attempts. Average damage per second was 138. This means if I got interrupted on the first (Bravatar) video, I would have taken hundreds of damage trying to recast slow again.

So FSI saved me hundreds of HP in this specific case, more than Troll Regen would have given me during the pre-slow phase. Once the mob is slowed Troll Regen is irrelevant, as it is too slow to save you 99% of the time. The other 1% of the time both FSI and Regen has a small chance to save you, depending on luck.

WW Dragons take an average of 15-20 minutes to setup, pull, and kill. That means you are killing 3-4 Dragons per hour. Troll Regen will save you 4800 HP per hour, which is saving you 1.5-2 minutes worth of Torpor. That isn't enough to get more kills per hour unless you are playing for 10+ hours.

This is why FSI is better with Torpor, and Regen is better before Torpor. It's really simple math. Level 60 Torpor Shamans aren't generally clearing hordes of greens/blues, because their spell kit is better suited for going after high power single targets. You generally make more money too.

[FickleFiend]

Does FSI prevent push interrupts? Can't stand Ogre so honestly don't know.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Does FSI prevent push interrupts? Can't stand Ogre so honestly don't know.

No, FSI is only relevant when mobs bash you. Bash has 3 components:
1. Damage
2. Chance to interrupt spell
3. Chance to Stun (100% chance to interrupt spell)

FSI removes the chance to stun. This means you always have a chance to finish casting your spells when you get bashed, you never have to worry about the stun (auto interrupt). This is if you are facing the target. If they hit you from behind, you can still be stunned.

[skorge]

I've said it before and I'll say it again:

If you're tanking a wall of at level mobs, you're dead.

If you're tanking a wall of green mobs, if they're beyond a certain range their bash not only rarely hits, it also doesn't stun.

You guys would know this if you played any race other than ogre, or did your homework on the actual game mechanics.

In short - you can chalk this to another demonstrably false situational statement that ogre players love to regurgitate in an effort to supply a never ending stream of copium for inhalation so that they can tolerate looking at their character thinking sacrificing 90% of their play quality for 5% of a margin is a good trade.

Homie didnt read my post...I have a 60 ogre, troll and barbarian shaman. I have a 51 ogre shaman on Green now as we speak. I can tell you hands down that the ogre shaman is the EASIEST shaman to play...I can be on the phone, farm mobs with no worry that my epic clickie (or my JBB) wont be interrupted by some green con mob...unlike my barbian shaman who always got interrupted while even farming in Droga! Once you play an ogre you will realize just how annoying and unnecessary that is...

FSI is BIS because it makes playing P99 easier...its lazy mode (well not really if you are fighting higher end mobs lol) basically. Come at me when you have put in thousands of hours on all the races of shaman (I played Iksar back in 2000). If you would have asked me back in 2010 I would have argued for the regen but now after playing Ogre I am owning up to FSI > Regen.

Just to be clear, all races of shaman are equal...you can solo the same stuff regardless of race...im not saying ogre is the best shaman, im saying FSI is the best trait because it gives you an extra level of QoL that the other traits dont match. The regen is really nice while leveling up if you are brand new to the server but then it loses its benefit once you get Torpor...if Torpor didnt exist maybe regen would be better

[FickleFiend]

No, FSI is only relevant when mobs bash you. Bash has 3 components:
1. Damage
2. Chance to interrupt spell
3. Chance to Stun (100% chance to interrupt spell)

FSI removes the chance to stun. This means you always have a chance to finish casting your spells when you get bashed, you never have to worry about the stun (auto interrupt). This is if you are facing the target. If they hit you from behind, you can still be stunned.

I know that part of it but was wondering if there's some magic I'm missing. I have a 60 Troll Shm and honestly the stuns aren't really a big thing. It's the push I find more annoying. So stand in corner I guess.

Cheers!

Edit... And to stay on topic, JBB is a sweet toy, along the lines of the Lumi stick for Druid. Great tool, but hardly necessary. Just slow down and enjoy the experience of leveling!

[DeathsSilkyMist]

I know that part of it but was wondering if there's some magic I'm missing. I have a 60 Troll Shm and honestly the stuns aren't really a big thing. It's the push I find more annoying. So stand in corner I guess.

Cheers!

Push shouldn't be an issue if you are slowing the mob. As a 60 Shaman I am not sure what situations you are getting into where you are getting pushed enough to be interrupted.

When fighting single mobs you getting pushed very little when they are slowed.

When fighting multiple mobs, you are rooting, not face tanking multiple mobs.

Fighting in water is the only thing I can think of, but that is always more difficult as a caster.

[FickleFiend]

Push shouldn't be an issue if you are slowing the mob. As a 60 Shaman I am not sure what situations you are getting into where you are getting pushed enough to be interrupted.

When fighting single mobs you getting pushed very little when they are slowed.

When fighting multiple mobs, you are rooting, not face tanking multiple mobs.

Fighting in water is the only thing I can think of, but that is always more difficult as a caster.

You're right, I'm not getting pushed a lot, but it's more annoying than any stuns I see. I can go many fights without a single stun landing but I'm also one of the "AC is King" kind of players. My real point here is that too many people really oversell the importance of FSI at 60. It's probably a little more useful than an extra stack of food on a halfling as they eat more, but not quite as useful as Dwarf barrel roll. Somewhere in between.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

You're right, I'm not getting pushed a lot, but it's more annoying than any stuns I see. I can go many fights without a single stun landing but I'm also one of the "AC is King" kind of players. My real point here is that too many people really oversell the importance of FSI at 60. It's probably a little more useful than an extra stack of food on a halfling as they eat more, but not quite as useful as Dwarf barrel roll. Somewhere in between.

I think the misconception here is you assume we are "overselling it". I have said it many times that no racial is necessary when you have Torpor.

I simply want to let people know which racial is best with Torpor if you care about min maxing. "Better" doesn't mean it is leagues ahead. It just means better.

Torpor just gives you too much regeneration for racial regeneration to matter much anymore. A Shaman with Fungi Staff, Fungi Tunic, and Torpor is Regenerating at 334 (Ogre) or 342 (Troll). The difference between the two is 2.3%. Getting 2.3% more HP per hour means saving 1.4 minutes on average per hour regenerating HP. This is assuming you are never at max HP, so the reality is less.

Before Torpor it is a 23% increase, which is pretty big when you are chain killing mobs for XP.

[FickleFiend]

I think the misconception here is you assume we are "overselling it". I have said it many times that no racial is necessary when you have Torpor.

I simply want to let people know which racial is best with Torpor if you care about min maxing. "Better" doesn't mean it is leagues ahead. It just means better.

Torpor just gives you too much regeneration for racial regeneration to matter much anymore. A Shaman with Fungi Staff, Fungi Tunic, and Torpor is Regenerating at 334 (Ogre) or 342 (Troll). The difference between the two is 2.3%. Getting 2.3% more HP per hour means saving 1.4 minutes on average per hour regenerating HP. This is assuming you are never at max HP, so the reality is less.

Before Torpor it is a 23% increase, which is pretty big when you are chain killing mobs for XP.

No misconceptions from me, it's thread after thread, year after year you come into any conversation about Shaman and derail it into an FSI is the bestest thing. Not even making this up. Now you're throwing out stats on Regen which neither the OP nor I even mentioned just to prove your point. I do believe this was a question about the JBB, not FSI, not Regen, not Iksar scales or Barb hairy hats.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

No misconceptions from me, it's thread after thread, year after year you come into any conversation about Shaman and derail it into an FSI is the bestest thing. Not even making this up. Now you're throwing out stats on Regen which neither the OP nor I even mentioned just to prove your point. I do believe this was a question about the JBB, not FSI, not Regen, not Iksar scales or Barb hairy hats.

You do realize that I didn't start the FSI conversation here, right?

ya.dingus derailed the thread by talking about it. I am simply responding to him so people don't get wrong information.

Please show me a thread where I actually just randomly started talking about FSI without cause.

[FickleFiend]

...
I am simply responding to him so people don't get wrong information.
...

This right here is the problem. You seem to think you're the be all end all for information in this game on this class. It's all a little aspy in how vehement you get on being right and everyone else being wrong and baiting people into discussing it so you can prove they're wrong 'cause you say so. In any thread it pops up, you're there taking over.

If that's what you need to validate your existence then more power to you. :rolleyes:

[DeathsSilkyMist]

This right here is the problem. You seem to think you're the be all end all for information in this game on this class. It's all a little aspy in how vehement you get on being right and everyone else being wrong and baiting people into discussing it so you can prove they're wrong 'cause you say so. In any thread it pops up, you're there taking over.

If that's what you need to validate your existence then more power to you. :rolleyes:

Not at all. I don't care about being right or wrong. I have been proven wrong plenty of times on these forums. I just want to help new players who can easily be manipulated by bad information.

The problem is people like yourself think they are right, and get angry when someone says something they don't agree with. If you were actually concerned about "derailing a thread", you would be going after ya.dingus for derailing it.

If everybody just ignored someone who was off-topic in a thread, it would be very easy for people to just post nonsense in every thread to try and spread bad information. People who are new to the game won't be able to tell the difference between the truth and a falsehood.

So I have a choice: go off-topic to refute the bad information, or ignore it and let people be misled. I prefer the former, you seem to prefer the latter.

[ya.dingus]

Blah blah blah, accuses me of not reading his post, doesn't realize he didn't read mine.

Doesn't realize that bash doesn't always stun on every hit

mobs get their secondary attack every 8 seconds, bash instead instead of kick 75% of the time, hit 50% of the time, and stun 50% of their hits. So if the mob isn't hasted you'll be spending roughly 2 seconds out of 40 (5%) of your time stunned. Depending on how fast your weapons are, that's some 2-3% of your threat and damage (your weapons will be ready as soon as you aren't stunned, so you don't lose all of the time) which isn't gamebreaking but is certainly nice.

Like neither of you get it, I actually posted the source documentation to the original warrior post that had the chances per hit and broke the math down to the 5% margin you avoid being "stunned"

You two literally don't understand the following;

1. Bash does not always stun. It has a chance to stun. It's not guaranteed
2. It also has a less chance of hitting you than a normal hit
3. If a mob is lower than you in level by a decent amount, even if it bashes, it has a reduced chance to stun the lower level the monster is.


I'm literally feeding you guys the source material and you're not reading it.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Like neither of you get it, I actually posted the source documentation to the original warrior post that had the chances per hit and broke the math down to the 5% margin you avoid being "stunned"

You two literally don't understand the following;

1. Bash does not always stun. It has a chance to stun. It's not guaranteed
2. It also has a less chance of hitting you than a normal hit
3. If a mob is lower than you in level by a decent amount, even if it bashes, it has a reduced chance to stun the lower level the monster is.


I'm literally feeding you guys the source material and you're not reading it.

You simply aren't reading, which is why you think we don't get it, and why you think your evidence is good.

I posted this earlier:

No, FSI is only relevant when mobs bash you. Bash has 3 components:
1. Damage
2. Chance to interrupt spell
3. Chance to Stun (100% chance to interrupt spell)

FSI removes the chance to stun. This means you always have a chance to finish casting your spells when you get bashed, you never have to worry about the stun (auto interrupt). This is if you are facing the target. If they hit you from behind, you can still be stunned.

And I showed the source code for EQEMU in the other thread you made in the tank section (which you also didn't read):


bool can_stun = false;
int stunbash_chance = 0; // bonus
if (attacker) {
if (skill_used == EQ::skills::SkillBash) {
can_stun = true;
if (attacker->IsClient())
stunbash_chance = attacker->spellbonuses.StunBashChance +
attacker->itembonuses.StunBashChance +
attacker->aabonuses.StunBashChance;
}
else if (skill_used == EQ::skills::SkillKick &&
(attacker->GetLevel() > 55 || attacker->IsNPC()) && GetClass() == WARRIOR) {
can_stun = true;
}

bool is_immune_to_frontal_stun = false;

if (IsBot() || IsClient() || IsMerc()) {
if (
IsPlayerClass(GetClass()) &&
RuleI(Combat, FrontalStunImmunityClasses) & GetPlayerClassBit(GetClass())
) {
is_immune_to_frontal_stun = true;
}


if (
(
IsPlayerRace(GetBaseRace()) &&
RuleI(Combat, FrontalStunImmunityRaces) & GetPlayerRaceBit(GetBaseRace())
) ||
GetBaseRace() == RACE_OGGOK_CITIZEN_93
) {
is_immune_to_frontal_stun = true;
}
} else if (IsNPC()) {
if (
RuleB(Combat, NPCsUseFrontalStunImmunityClasses) &&
IsPlayerClass(GetClass()) &&
RuleI(Combat, FrontalStunImmunityClasses) & GetPlayerClassBit(GetClass())
) {
is_immune_to_frontal_stun = true;
}

if (
RuleB(Combat, NPCsUseFrontalStunImmunityRaces) &&
(
(
IsPlayerRace(GetBaseRace()) &&
RuleI(Combat, FrontalStunImmunityRaces) & GetPlayerRaceBit(GetBaseRace())
) ||
GetBaseRace() == RACE_OGGOK_CITIZEN_93
)
) {
is_immune_to_frontal_stun = true;
}
}

if (
is_immune_to_frontal_stun &&
!attacker->BehindMob(this, attacker->GetX(), attacker->GetY())
) {
can_stun = false;
}

if (GetSpecialAbility(UNSTUNABLE)) {
can_stun = false;
}
}
if (can_stun) {
int bashsave_roll = zone->random.Int(0, 100);
if (bashsave_roll > 98 || bashsave_roll > (55 - stunbash_chance)) {
// did stun -- roll other resists
// SE_FrontalStunResist description says any angle now a days
int stun_resist2 = spellbonuses.FrontalStunResist + itembonuses.FrontalStunResist +
aabonuses.FrontalStunResist;
if (zone->random.Int(1, 100) > stun_resist2) {
// stun resist 2 failed
// time to check SE_StunResist and mod2 stun resist
int stun_resist =
spellbonuses.StunResist + itembonuses.StunResist + aabonuses.StunResist;
if (zone->random.Int(0, 100) >= stun_resist) {
// did stun
// nothing else to check!
Stun(2000); // straight 2 seconds every time
}
else {
// stun resist passed!
if (IsClient())
MessageString(Chat::Stun, SHAKE_OFF_STUN);
}
}
else {
// stun resist 2 passed!
if (IsClient())
MessageString(Chat::Stun, AVOID_STUNNING_BLOW);
}
}
else {
// main stun failed -- extra interrupt roll
if (IsCasting() &&
!EQ::ValueWithin(casting_spell_id, 859, 1023)) // these spells are excluded
// 90% chance >< -- stun immune won't reach this branch though :(
if (zone->random.Int(0, 9) > 1)
InterruptSpell();
}
}

if (spell_id != SPELL_UNKNOWN && !iBuffTic) {
//see if root will break
if (IsRooted() && !FromDamageShield) // neotoyko: only spells cancel root
TryRootFadeByDamage(buffslot, attacker);
}
else if (spell_id == SPELL_UNKNOWN)
{
//increment chances of interrupting
if (IsCasting()) { //shouldnt interrupt on regular spell damage
attacked_count++;
LogCombat("Melee attack while casting. Attack count [{}]", attacked_count);
}
}


I have also shown videos where it shows I would save more HP with FSI preventing a stun than HP regen:

https://youtu.be/igpbLuNe0ls?t=440

https://youtu.be/uEgFcImQ9XU?t=18

You didn't even read https://wiki.project1999.com/Sakuragi%27s_Warrior_Guide correctly. He is saying if a fight lasts 40 seconds and you get stunned for 2 seconds, the 2 seconds of being stunned is 5% of the total 40 seconds. A Warrior only cares about the raw stun time, since that is time they can't swing their weapons. Spell casters lose more time when getting stunned, because you also have to take into account the amount of time it takes to recast a spell. If you get stunned 4 seconds in to casting Malo, you end up wasting a minimum of 6 seconds (2 from stun and 4 from the spell you didn't finish).

If Sakuragi's math is correct:

1. Over 80 seconds a mob would use their secondary attack 10 times.
2. 8/10 of those secondary attacks would be bashes
3. 4/10 of those secondary attacks would hit
4. 2/10 of those bashes would stun

This means 1 stunning bash every 40 seconds, so I assume he thinks the stuns last for 2 seconds. Based on the source code I showed above, that seems correct.

[FickleFiend]

Not at all. I don't care about being right or wrong. I have been proven wrong plenty of times on these forums. I just want to help new players who can easily be manipulated by bad information.

The problem is people like yourself think they are right, and get angry when someone says something they don't agree with. If you were actually concerned about "derailing a thread", you would be going after ya.dingus for derailing it.

If everybody just ignored someone who was off-topic in a thread, it would be very easy for people to just post nonsense in every thread to try and spread bad information. People who are new to the game won't be able to tell the difference between the truth and a falsehood.

So I have a choice: go off-topic to refute the bad information, or ignore it and let people be misled. I prefer the former, you seem to prefer the latter.

Deflect deflect, rinse repeat, carry on. I'm right, you're wrong but mostly you're wrong because you called me wrong and now I'll tell you how wrong you are. I'm taking my ball and going home. /DeathMilkySimQuest

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Deflect deflect, rinse repeat, carry on. I'm right, you're wrong but mostly you're wrong because you called me wrong and now I'll tell you how wrong you are. I'm taking my ball and going home. /DeathMilkySimQuest

The pattern here is you make a bunch of unsubstantiated claims, and then post nonsense when you get called out on it. I am not sure who you think you are convincing this way.

[FickleFiend]

The pattern here is you make a bunch of unsubstantiated claims, and then post nonsense when you get called out on it. I am not sure who you think you are convincing this way.

That's the difference between us, I'm not trying to convince anyone of anything whereas that seems to be your life goal. I'm just saying you're incredibly full of yourself and appear to have nothing better to do than throw out a bunch of opinions and call them facts then pat yourself on the back for feeling big and padding the post count. It's okay, I know a lot of people who peaked in High School and it's nothing to be ashamed of. Carry on (cause we all know you will).

[DeathsSilkyMist]

That's the difference between us, I'm not trying to convince anyone of anything whereas that seems to be your life goal. I'm just saying you're incredibly full of yourself and appear to have nothing better to do than throw out a bunch of opinions and call them facts then pat yourself on the back for feeling big and padding the post count. It's okay, I know a lot of people who peaked in High School and it's nothing to be ashamed of. Carry on (cause we all know you will).

You're spending a lot of time trying to convince other people about what your thoughts are on me. Otherwise you wouldn't be posting. You're a new account, and most of your posts are just shit-talking other people so far.

[FickleFiend]

...most of your posts are just shit-talking other people so far.

Hmm, where's that dude who used to tell people they need to find Jesus? He could probably stop by and solve all of this ire.

[Toxigen]

yall mother fuckers need jesus

[DeathsSilkyMist]

yall mother fuckers need jesus

Jesus starts with J. JBB starts with J. Coincidence? I think not.

[Toxigen]

Jesus starts with J. JBB starts with J. Coincidence? I think not.

what im wondering is why on earth you recommended that poor new guy re-roll to troll for a jbb

come argue with me in the other thread

[DeathsSilkyMist]

what im wondering is why on earth you recommended that poor new guy re-roll to troll for a jbb

come argue with me in the other thread

.... I didn't. I said he shouldn't re-roll. I just gave him some tips for if he chose to do it anyway.

This is precisely why I keep saying people don't read lol.

[ya.dingus]

You simply aren't reading, which is why you think we don't get it, and why you think your evidence is good.

I posted this earlier:



And I showed the source code for EQEMU in the other thread you made in the tank section (which you also didn't read):


bool can_stun = false;
int stunbash_chance = 0; // bonus
if (attacker) {
if (skill_used == EQ::skills::SkillBash) {
can_stun = true;
if (attacker->IsClient())
stunbash_chance = attacker->spellbonuses.StunBashChance +
attacker->itembonuses.StunBashChance +
attacker->aabonuses.StunBashChance;
}
else if (skill_used == EQ::skills::SkillKick &&
(attacker->GetLevel() > 55 || attacker->IsNPC()) && GetClass() == WARRIOR) {
can_stun = true;
}

bool is_immune_to_frontal_stun = false;

if (IsBot() || IsClient() || IsMerc()) {
if (
IsPlayerClass(GetClass()) &&
RuleI(Combat, FrontalStunImmunityClasses) & GetPlayerClassBit(GetClass())
) {
is_immune_to_frontal_stun = true;
}


if (
(
IsPlayerRace(GetBaseRace()) &&
RuleI(Combat, FrontalStunImmunityRaces) & GetPlayerRaceBit(GetBaseRace())
) ||
GetBaseRace() == RACE_OGGOK_CITIZEN_93
) {
is_immune_to_frontal_stun = true;
}
} else if (IsNPC()) {
if (
RuleB(Combat, NPCsUseFrontalStunImmunityClasses) &&
IsPlayerClass(GetClass()) &&
RuleI(Combat, FrontalStunImmunityClasses) & GetPlayerClassBit(GetClass())
) {
is_immune_to_frontal_stun = true;
}

if (
RuleB(Combat, NPCsUseFrontalStunImmunityRaces) &&
(
(
IsPlayerRace(GetBaseRace()) &&
RuleI(Combat, FrontalStunImmunityRaces) & GetPlayerRaceBit(GetBaseRace())
) ||
GetBaseRace() == RACE_OGGOK_CITIZEN_93
)
) {
is_immune_to_frontal_stun = true;
}
}

if (
is_immune_to_frontal_stun &&
!attacker->BehindMob(this, attacker->GetX(), attacker->GetY())
) {
can_stun = false;
}

if (GetSpecialAbility(UNSTUNABLE)) {
can_stun = false;
}
}
if (can_stun) {
int bashsave_roll = zone->random.Int(0, 100);
if (bashsave_roll > 98 || bashsave_roll > (55 - stunbash_chance)) {
// did stun -- roll other resists
// SE_FrontalStunResist description says any angle now a days
int stun_resist2 = spellbonuses.FrontalStunResist + itembonuses.FrontalStunResist +
aabonuses.FrontalStunResist;
if (zone->random.Int(1, 100) > stun_resist2) {
// stun resist 2 failed
// time to check SE_StunResist and mod2 stun resist
int stun_resist =
spellbonuses.StunResist + itembonuses.StunResist + aabonuses.StunResist;
if (zone->random.Int(0, 100) >= stun_resist) {
// did stun
// nothing else to check!
Stun(2000); // straight 2 seconds every time
}
else {
// stun resist passed!
if (IsClient())
MessageString(Chat::Stun, SHAKE_OFF_STUN);
}
}
else {
// stun resist 2 passed!
if (IsClient())
MessageString(Chat::Stun, AVOID_STUNNING_BLOW);
}
}
else {
// main stun failed -- extra interrupt roll
if (IsCasting() &&
!EQ::ValueWithin(casting_spell_id, 859, 1023)) // these spells are excluded
// 90% chance >< -- stun immune won't reach this branch though :(
if (zone->random.Int(0, 9) > 1)
InterruptSpell();
}
}

if (spell_id != SPELL_UNKNOWN && !iBuffTic) {
//see if root will break
if (IsRooted() && !FromDamageShield) // neotoyko: only spells cancel root
TryRootFadeByDamage(buffslot, attacker);
}
else if (spell_id == SPELL_UNKNOWN)
{
//increment chances of interrupting
if (IsCasting()) { //shouldnt interrupt on regular spell damage
attacked_count++;
LogCombat("Melee attack while casting. Attack count [{}]", attacked_count);
}
}


I have also shown videos where it shows I would save more HP with FSI preventing a stun than HP regen:

https://youtu.be/igpbLuNe0ls?t=440

https://youtu.be/uEgFcImQ9XU?t=18

You didn't even read https://wiki.project1999.com/Sakuragi%27s_Warrior_Guide correctly. He is saying if a fight lasts 40 seconds and you get stunned for 2 seconds, the 2 seconds of being stunned is 5% of the total 40 seconds. A Warrior only cares about the raw stun time, since that is time they can't swing their weapons. Spell casters lose more time when getting stunned, because you also have to take into account the amount of time it takes to recast a spell. If you get stunned 4 seconds in to casting Malo, you end up wasting a minimum of 6 seconds (2 from stun and 4 from the spell you didn't finish).

If Sakuragi's math is correct:

1. Over 80 seconds a mob would use their secondary attack 10 times.
2. 8/10 of those secondary attacks would be bashes
3. 4/10 of those secondary attacks would hit
4. 2/10 of those bashes would stun

This means 1 stunning bash every 40 seconds, so I assume he thinks the stuns last for 2 seconds. Based on the source code I showed above, that seems correct.

So you're saying, it's still 5%

And for that 5% you want me to believe that overcapping on stats, being big all the time, having some of the worse visual icons, is somehow a good trade?

Sorry 5% while being hit, which you only get the maximum amount of value that FSI offers if you're a warrior basically. Anyone else that's not getting hit from the front all the time sees none of the benefit.

I'm going to have to #hardpass. FSI is a noob trap at worst, or a small QOL at best.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

So you're saying, it's still 5%

And for that 5% you want me to believe that overcapping on stats, being big all the time, having some of the worse visual icons, is somehow a good trade?

Sorry 5% while being hit, which you only get the maximum amount of value that FSI offers if you're a warrior basically. Anyone else that's not getting hit from the front all the time sees none of the benefit.

I'm going to have to #hardpass. FSI is a noob trap at worst, or a small QOL at best.

No, it isn't 5% for casters. Did you not read what I just said? If you get bashed while casting Malo 4 seconds in, you are losing 6 seconds in that 40 seconds, not 2 seconds. That is 15% of your time wasted per 40 seconds on average. That is pretty big when you are in the pre-slow phase.

Nobody is forcing you to play an Ogre:) I am not sure why you are so angry about FSI being superior to Regeneration with Torpor. Both are small benefits, we are just determining which one is better. Better doesn't mean leagues ahead. I have provided plenty of evidence to show how useful FSI is with Torpor. Your evidence isn't evidence against FSI.

[ya.dingus]

No, it isn't 5% for casters. Did you not read what I just said? If you get bashed while casting Malo 4 seconds in, you are losing 6 seconds in that 40 seconds, not 2 seconds. That is 15% of your time wasted per 40 seconds on average. That is pretty big when you are in the pre-slow phase.

Nobody is forcing you to play an Ogre:) I am not sure why you are so angry about FSI being superior to Regeneration with Torpor. Both are small benefits, we are just determining which one is better. Better doesn't mean leagues ahead. I have provided plenty of evidence to show how useful FSI is with Torpor. Your evidence isn't evidence against FSI.

It's 5% for melee, it's worse for casters.

Here you are trying to change the goal posts to make FSI "better" but it's just a noob trap.

Why dont you adjust your situation to be more accurate:

1. If a mob uses its secondary it may bash.
2. If a mob tries to bash you, it may hit.
3. If it does hit you, it may stun.
4. If it does stun you, you get interrupted.


Or what's more likely to happen as the ogre experience:


1. If a mob uses its secondary it may bash.
2. If a mob tries to bash you, it may hit.
3. If it does hit you, it may stun.
4. If it does stun you, you resist.
5. If you didnt get immediately interrupted you may get pushed
6. If you get pushed, you may get interrupted, but you wont know until the end of your cast
7. you may get your spell off.



It's a n00b trap baby, nooooooob trap. Learn to play better is what I highly recommend.


Like I said, Ogres just living in an atmosphere of copium, they've practically evolved in it to ensure their survivability as everyone realizes FSI is the worst trade deal in the history of trade deals.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

It's 5% for melee, it's worse for casters.

Here you are trying to change the goal posts to make FSI "better" but it's just a noob trap.

Why dont you adjust your situation to be more accurate:

1. If a mob uses its secondary it may bash.
2. If a mob tries to bash you, it may hit.
3. If it does hit you, it may stun.
4. If it does stun you, you get interrupted.


Or what's more likely to happen as the ogre experience:


1. If a mob uses its secondary it may bash.
2. If a mob tries to bash you, it may hit.
3. If it does hit you, it may stun.
4. If it does stun you, you resist.
5. If you didnt get immediately interrupted you may get pushed
6. If you get pushed, you may get interrupted, but you wont know until the end of your cast
7. you may get your spell off.



It's a n00b trap baby, nooooooob trap. Learn to play better is what I highly recommend.

This is just nonsense lol. I am not sure how "playing better" changes how FSI or Regen helps you with Torpor. But you totally proved your point by repeating childish sayings.

[ya.dingus]

This is just nonsense lol. I am not sure how "playing better" changes how FSI or Regen helps you with Torpor. But you totally proved your point by repeating childish sayings.

How playing better doesn't effect FSI?

Maybe not trying to take free hits whenever you can to try to make your situational race trait somewhat useful.

Just straight up convo be like:

"Yo guys, I'm permanently immune to stuns from the front. So in the 37% chance a mob's bash may actually hit me, and may actually stun, I'll be immune to it!"

What did you have to give up for it?

"Everything."

[DeathsSilkyMist]

How playing better doesn't effect FSI?

Maybe not trying to take free hits whenever you can to try to make your situational race trait somewhat useful.

Just straight up convo be like:

"Yo guys, I'm permanently immune to stuns from the front. So in the 37% chance a mob's bash may actually hit me, and may actually stun, I'll be immune to it!"

What did you have to give up for it?

"Everything."

You do know if you "play better", you aren't regenerating most of the time, right? You just Torpor back to full HP out of combat. Not sure how that helps your case. The better you get, typically the less you are regenerating. Torpor Shamans typically aren't chain killing mobs.

Shaman spells are slow to cast. Malo has a 5 second cast. There are many situations where you don't have enough room to have max distance on a mob when casting your first spell. How are you going to avoid getting hit in the pre-slow phase? Are resistances something you can game with skill? What if a mob resists multiple spells?

If you have some awesome strategies to share, that would be great!

[ya.dingus]

You do know if you "play better", you aren't regenerating most of the time, right? You just Torpor back to full HP out of combat. Not sure how that helps your case. The better you get, typically the less you are regenerating. Torpor Shamans typically aren't chain killing mobs.

Shaman spells are slow to cast. Malo has a 5 second cast. There are many situations where you don't have enough room to have max distance on a mob when casting your first spell. How are you going to avoid getting hit in the pre-slow phase? Are resistances something you can game with skill? What if a mob resists multiple spells?

If you have some awesome strategies to share, that would be great!

No if you're playing better it means you're regening all the time.

Because you're never sitting at max hp or max mana, you're always transferring it into dps.

Like, for real my dude, the copium has you deluded.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

No if you're playing better it means you're regening all the time.

Because you're never sitting at max hp or max mana, you're always transferring it into dps.

Like, for real my dude, the copium has you deluded.

Please show me a camp a level 60 torpor Shaman is chain pulling with no downtime solo.

I think you fail to realize a lot of targets a 60 Shaman is soloing is going to have downtime between kills.

If your soloing cliff golems, you have to wait 6 minutes for the cliff golem to respawn, but you will Torpor back to full HP/MP in 3 minutes.

[skorge]

What did you have to give up for it?

"Everything."

You literally give up nothing for it. It’s a free racial trait. What kinda crack u smokin bro?

[Jimjam]

It's 5% for melee, it's worse for casters.

Here you are trying to change the goal posts to make FSI "better" but it's just a noob trap.

Why dont you adjust your situation to be more accurate:

1. If a mob uses its secondary it may bash.
2. If a mob tries to bash you, it may hit.
3. If it does hit you, it may stun.
4. If it does stun you, you get interrupted.


Or what's more likely to happen as the ogre experience:


1. If a mob uses its secondary it may bash.
2. If a mob tries to bash you, it may hit.
3. If it does hit you, it may stun.
4. If it does stun you, you resist.
5. If you didnt get immediately interrupted you may get pushed
6. If you get pushed, you may get interrupted, but you wont know until the end of your cast
7. you may get your spell off.



It's a n00b trap baby, nooooooob trap. Learn to play better is what I highly recommend.


Like I said, Ogres just living in an atmosphere of copium, they've practically evolved in it to ensure their survivability as everyone realizes FSI is the worst trade deal in the history of trade deals.

Bash has a chance to interrupt just for hitting, in addition to the chances derived from stun and push.

P99 isn’t using the stock eqemu code for this (unless Rogean pushed the change back to eqemu idk).

[Jimjam]

Please show me a camp a level 60 torpor Shaman is chain pulling with no downtime solo.

I think you fail to realize a lot of targets a 60 Shaman is soloing is going to have downtime between kills.

If your soloing cliff golems, you have to wait 6 minutes for the cliff golem to respawn, but you will Torpor back to full HP/MP in 3 minutes.
Let us remember this isn’t a thread exclusively about 60 torp shamans. It is about non-iksar from the mid 40s up using jbb.

[pacmaster]

Yes, JBB lives up to the hype. I've found fungi > JBB = epic, at least through mid 50s.

[skorge]

Let us remember this isn’t a thread exclusively about 60 torp shamans. It is about non-iksar from the mid 40s up using jbb.
The general answer has already been given to the question of the thread. Yes. It's good considering its only like 20k or less. Save for it. Buy it. Use it.

But on a side note, even without Torpor, FSI is still great to have. Even once you get the JBB, because it can be interrupted like any other spell.

Even though you can debate which trait is best to pick on a brand new toon to the server...I would still be tempted to roll Ogre over Troll or Iksar just because when you are brand new your gear sucks, there will be a lot of fights where a spell fizzles or you get an interruption it could spell death. Gate is probably going to get used more as well early on as well and gate is easy to get interupted on. FSI could potentially save you hours on the path to 50+

I would only roll Iksar if I didn't already have a JBB wearing shaman. Gotta take advantage of every toy Verant put in the game at the time. It really does suck balls that they made the JBB not equippable by Iksar tho. Always hated that.

[ya.dingus]

You literally give up nothing for it. It’s a free racial trait. What kinda crack u smokin bro?

What are you giving up? I already listed it. If you failed to read it or can't comprehend it, well...

I'll list it again:

1. You lost a ton of stats as Ogre from overstating in velious. As a result of your overstating, you're extremelly anemic in other areas (like dex, and wisdom, and charisma, and basically anything that isnt str and stamina). Which means other classes that arent ogres, in the same raid gear, end up with more well rounded and powerful characters.

2. You're big, all the time, all the damn time. You're like betty crocket's large stick of butter jammed directly into the arteries of a dungeon. You've got to shrink, all the time, and even then, you're still obnoxious to move around.

3. You lose fashionquest. In my opinion, this is the worst of the offenders. You're ugly, sinfully ugly. Not because you're an ogre, but because the armor on ogre doesn't look great. You've sacrificed the most important part of the game for "mUh SiTuAtIoNaL sTuN rEsIsT."

5. MuH FaCtIoN (like who cares about faction anyway really)


In short, FSI isn't just a noob trap, it's simply boomer logic thinking it's better when we have velious. The only thing that made ogres outstanding was their stat attribution pre-velious when other races couldnt approach your levels of str/stamina. Now that everyone can cap, that doesn't matter, which means ogres don't matter.

You're outdated son, obsolete, yesterday's news, gahbaghe.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

What are you giving up? I already listed it. If you failed to read it or can't comprehend it, well...

I'll list it again:

1. You lost a ton of stats as Ogre from overstating in velious. As a result of your overstating, you're extremelly anemic in other areas (like dex, and wisdom, and charisma, and basically anything that isnt str and stamina). Which means other classes that arent ogres, in the same raid gear, end up with more well rounded and powerful characters.

2. You're big, all the time, all the damn time. You're like betty crocket's large stick of butter jammed directly into the arteries of a dungeon. You've got to shrink, all the time, and even then, you're still obnoxious to move around.

3. You lose fashionquest. In my opinion, this is the worst of the offenders. You're ugly, sinfully ugly. Not because you're an ogre, but because the armor on ogre doesn't look great. You've sacrificed the most important part of the game for "mUh SiTuAtIoNaL sTuN rEsIsT."

5. MuH FaCtIoN (like who cares about faction anyway really)


In short, FSI isn't just a noob trap, it's simply boomer logic thinking it's better when we have velious. The only thing that made ogres outstanding was their stat attribution pre-velious when other races couldnt approach your levels of str/stamina. Now that everyone can cap, that doesn't matter, which means ogres don't matter.

You're outdated son, obsolete, yesterday's news, gahbaghe.

When you can't post any facts or logic, revert to nonsense. Got it!

[ya.dingus]

When you can't post any facts or logic, revert to nonsense. Got it!

What are you even talking about? The entire list is nothing but facts. It's all backed up by actual in game stats and math.

You're like some kind of boomer insisting that revolvers are somehow still relevant in today's firearm world when the rest of us have moved on to semi-autos.

Like, begone boomer.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

What are you even talking about? The entire list is nothing but facts. It's all backed up by actual in game stats and math.

You're like some kind of boomer insisting that revolvers are somehow still relevant in today's firearm world when the rest of us have moved on to semi-autos.

Like, begone boomer.

Doubling down on the nonsense. Please keep this in RnF.

[ya.dingus]

Doubling down on the nonsense. Please keep this in RnF.

I'll let my posts speak for themselves, they actually have the stats posted on them, and the justification.

All you nerds have is "well this one time in chardok", please son, we all know who is trying to be disingenuous (it's you).

[DeathsSilkyMist]

I'll let my posts speak for themselves, they actually have the stats posted on them, and the justification.

All you nerds have is "well this one time in chardok", please son, we all know who is trying to be disingenuous (it's you).

I have given actual data, you have given almost all nonsense. It's very clear in the post history.

[red_demonman]

Didn't read rest of post but at 60 - not that great. For leveling until then, pretty great. That's all you really need to know.

[greatdane]

What are you giving up? I already listed it. If you failed 1. You lost a ton of stats as Ogre from overstating in velious. As a result of your overstating, you're extremelly anemic in other areas (like dex, and wisdom, and charisma, and basically anything that isnt str and stamina). Which means other classes that arent ogres, in the same raid gear, end up with more well rounded and powerful characters.

This barely matters. The level of gear required to cap out stamina even with the buff is beyond what most players ever achieve, and it's also useful to cap it unbuffed because it gives you an extra buff slot and/or lets you not worry about letting stamina get dispelled. You're more likely to have over 200+ wisdom than 205+ stamina unbuffed, and iksars only have 13 more wisdom than ogres anyway. The ogre's fifty-two points stamina advantage over an iksar's is vastly better than thirteen points in a stat that softcaps at 200 which you can reach in non-raid gear. The gap between ogres and trolls is smaller, but their stats are so similar that no comparison is meaningful there. And ogres still have the edge.

Don't know why the fuck you're talking about dexterity and charisma. These stats do literally nothing for shamans.

2. You're big, all the time, all the damn time. You're like betty crocket's large stick of butter jammed directly into the arteries of a dungeon. You've got to shrink, all the time, and even then, you're still obnoxious to move around.

Shamans get shrink at level 19. It costs basically no mana and lasts forever (until zoning). A double-shrunk ogre is about the size of a dwarf, so no, it's not "still obnoxious to move around" when shrunk. Past classic, the dungeons generally aren't narrow enough for racial size to be a real issue, anyway. By Velious, it becomes totally irrelevant as everything is spacious even indoors.

3. You lose fashionquest. In my opinion, this is the worst of the offenders. You're ugly, sinfully ugly. Not because you're an ogre, but because the armor on ogre doesn't look great. You've sacrificed the most important part of the game for "mUh SiTuAtIoNaL sTuN rEsIsT."

Ogres are handsome. Shut up.

5. MuH FaCtIoN (like who cares about faction anyway really)

Nobody has ever brought up faction as an advantage in favor of ogres. What are you talking about?

In short, FSI isn't just a noob trap, it's simply boomer logic thinking it's better when we have velious. The only thing that made ogres outstanding was their stat attribution pre-velious when other races couldnt approach your levels of str/stamina. Now that everyone can cap, that doesn't matter, which means ogres don't matter.

I mean, if you're incapable of comprehending basic game mechanics, I can see why you might somehow concoct the idea that avoiding interruption doesn't matter. That doesn't mean you're right.

[ya.dingus]

https://i.imgur.com/Xg6ZjNk.png

[DeathsSilkyMist]

https://i.imgur.com/Xg6ZjNk.png

You know you've lost the argument when you feel the need to make cringey bad memes.

[ya.dingus]

You know you've lost the argument when you feel the need to make cringey bad memes.

Oh it that how it works? You bash your opposition with facts, stats, and statements, then resort to mocking their position because it's so indefendisble that the only reasonable position is to ridicule them now, and you've *lost*?

Is that how it works?

That is some great A+ Industrial copium you're sucking down there.

https://i.imgur.com/2qT0TFA.png



I think the best part is how you've sub'd to this thread for responses so you can respond as quickly back as possible, while I'm coming here casually now and then for the yucks that come with making fun of bad arguments.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

then resort to mocking their position because it's so indefendisble that the only reasonable position is to ridicule them now, and you've *lost*?

Is that how it works?

That is exactly what you are doing. I have presented videos, source code, and math. You have presented memes and insults lol. The one article you linked didn't even prove the point you were trying to make, you read it wrong.

[ya.dingus]

That is exactly what you are doing. I have presented videos, source code, and math. You have presented memes and insults lol. The one article you linked didn't even prove the point you were trying to make, you read it wrong.

Oh no, I read it right. That was stats from their own article proving exactly how bad it was and still not realizing it.

I have another article you can read while you're at it though.

Dealing with Denial (https://www.verywellmind.com/denial-as-a-defense-mechanism-5114461)

By the way your own "source code" even though was pointed out as *inaccurate* still proves that it's 5% or less reduction in actual usefulness in melee.

The thing is, you tried hyper inflating that number by adding the cast time *lost* when you get interrupted, not realizing that you actually lost more time full casting a failed spell if you were interrupted anyway.

Bro has the IQ of an Ogre for real.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Oh no, I read it right. That was stats from their own article proving exactly how bad it was and still not realizing it.

I have another article you can read while you're at it though.

Dealing with Denial (https://www.verywellmind.com/denial-as-a-defense-mechanism-5114461)

Keep posting silly things. It just makes your position worse. I am glad people are seeing you are just a troll, and not seriously discussing the topic.

If you think you are correct, provide evidence and logical arguments. Not insults, memes, and nonsense.

[ya.dingus]

Keep posting silly things. It just makes your position worse. I am glad people are seeing you are just a troll, and not seriously discussing the topic.

If you think you are correct, provide evidence and logical arguments. Not insults, memes, and nonsense.

Bro is malding over a bad choice in character race.

You're like the cd288 of Ogre FSI.

Good Yucks today man.

Tried to ignore two threads filled with source material and the code he posted that actually invalidated his own argument. Guy is in full clown regalia today.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Bro is malding over a bad choice in character race.

You're like the cd288 of Ogre FSI.

Good Yucks today man.

This is obvious projection:) The reason why you keep posting about FSI being bad over and over again is because you are clearly regretting your race choice.

I am not sure why, you can do all the same content. FSI being the best racial for Shamans isn't a big deal. If you don't have it you won't be stopped from doing content.

Just chill out and stop posting false information because you have regrets.

[ya.dingus]

This is obvious projection:) The reason why you keep posting about FSI being bad over and over again is because you are clearly regretting your race choice.

I am not sure why, you can do all the same content. FSI being the best racial for Shamans isn't a big deal. If you don't have it you won't be stopped from doing content.

Just chill out and stop posting false information because you have regrets.

What to tell how someone lost an argument?

1) Their position is bad (yours is awful)
2) They start trying to use your own content because they're intellectually bankrupt and can't come up with their own material.
3) Resorts to disingenuous lies to try to cope with losing (cd288 status for sure)


Keep sub'd to the thread bro, I await eagerly for the continuation of roman tribute level jimmies you're supplying.

Good thing you stick to pve games, because if your forum history is anything similar to how you play in-game, you'd get styled on there too.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

What to tell how someone lost an argument?

1) Their position is bad (yours is awful)
2) They start trying to use your own content because they're intellectually bankrupt and can't come up with their own material.


This is a good guide for people reading your posts.

I have provided a lot more evidence for my position than you have, and you need to resort to making bad memes to try and save face.

Your comment about the source code is also nonsense. P99 is based on EQEMU code. If you want to claim the P99 code is different, you need to provide evidence. You can look at the github for attack.cpp all the way back to before P99 came out. The code NEVER had special code for auto-interrupt after a stun resist. You will need to provide patch notes or P99 developer comments showing discussions about FSI to even begin to make the claim that P99's code has changed for FSI.

[ya.dingus]

This is a good guide for people reading your posts.

I have provided a lot more evidence for my position than you have, and you need to resort to making bad memes to try and save face.

Your comment about the source code is also nonsense. P99 is based on EQEMU code. If you want to claim the P99 code is different, you need to provide evidence. You can look at the github for attack.cpp all the way back to before P99 came out. The code NEVER had special code for auto-interrupt after a stun resist. You will need to provide patch notes or P99 developer comments showing discussions about FSI to even begin to make the claim that P99's code has changed for FSI.

Now he's rapid firing out the content stealing comments. Must be from reddit.

Hey why dont you change your sig to

"FSI totally helped me get my slow off as I casted it from range and took 0 melee damage when my wolf tanked golem!

Come read my guides and watch more of my 35% chance of FSI being useful in a hyper situational context that ultimately had no effect on winning or losing!"

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Now he's rapid firing out the content stealing comments. Must be from reddit.

Hey why dont you change your sig to

"FSI totally helped me get my slow off as I casted it from range and took 0 melee damage when my wolf tanked golem!

Come read my guides and watch more of my 35% chance of FSI being useful in a hyper situational context that ultimately had no effect on winning or losing!"

I really don't understand why you are so angry at FSI. It's just a racial perk that's slightly better with Torpor than the others.

You don't need to constantly make yourself look like a fool to try and convince people they shouldn't roll Ogre because you think they are ugly or something.

[ya.dingus]

I really don't understand why you are so angry at FSI. It's just a racial perk that's slightly better with Torpor than the others.

You don't need to constantly make yourself look like a fool to try and convince people they shouldn't roll Ogre because you think they are ugly or something.

Not angry, I just like to mock obviously bad ideas that say FSI is still good when we know it mathematically isn't.


You've gone out of your way to invalidate your own argument, then act disingenuous about it.

It's telling because your ego won't let you cope with losing an argument, but you can cope with lying to yourself about something as inane as a racial trait.

It's a problem not even the copium can fix.


I eagerly await your next rustled reply.

[Duik]

Last word achieved.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Not angry, I just like to mock obviously bad ideas that say FSI is still good when we know it mathematically isn't.


You've gone out of your way to invalidate your own argument, then act disingenuous about it.

It's telling because your ego won't let you cope with losing an argument, but you can cope with lying to yourself about something as inane as a racial trait.

It's a problem not even the copium can fix.


I eagerly await your next rustled reply.

You haven't provided any math to show it's bad, or that regen is better. I don't know why you keep thinking that you have "mathed it out".

I will happily admit defeat if you can actually provide something other than insults and memes.

[ya.dingus]

You haven't provided any math to show it's bad, or that regen is better. I don't know why you keep thinking that you have "mathed it out".

I will happily admit defeat if you can actually provide something other than insults and memes.

Are you serious right now? You've literally posted the code backing up the 5% melee interruption rate the original warrior guide had cited.

Why would I rehash something that others took a look at and said *yeah that looks right*.

You truly are the cd288 of the thread.

All that copium, and he still can't cope with losing the argument.

And the best part is, tanking non-stop in melee as a warrior is the BEST value FSI will provide for you. Anything else because even MORE SITUATIONAL and less mathematically probable.

Bro is clinging to negligiable % chances here to try to justify ogres as being anything but a space hog in raids.

Which by the way, FSI is even more useless in raids, honestly why would you ever go such a small marginal chance to improve your character when there are literally moderate or higher things you can to do make a better character.

Not overstating alone invalidates the garbage that is FSI.


Face it bro, Ogres havent been good since Kunark. Their hayday is over, and the only reason that was, is beacuse they could hit stat pools other races couldnt with gear.

It's over, done, finite. Ogres haven't been good since velious released.


You're just salty because them lizzy boys took your spot.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Are you serious right now? You've literally posted the code backing up the 5% melee interruption rate the original warrior guide had cited.

Why would I rehash something that others took a look at and said *yeah that looks right*.

You truly are the cd288 of the thread.

All that copium, and he still can't cope with losing the argument.

Again, you read it wrong, and are not taking into account spell cast times. It isn't a "5% interruption rate". He was saying 2 seconds is 5% of 40 seconds lol. The interruption rate is:

8/10 secondary attacks are bashes
4/10 bashes hit
2/10 bashes stun.

So you have a 20% chance of being stunned every time a secondary attack is triggered. That is why it ends up being 1 stun per 40 seconds on average.

When you are casting a spell, you will lose more time when you get interrupted half way through. You will lose 6 seconds if you get stunned 4 seconds into casting Malo, for example.

You are simply incorrect when you say a resisted stun will always interrupt the spell anyway. There is no evidence of this in the EQEMU source code, or evidence I can find from P99 devs talking about FSI. The P99 developers aren't changing all the EQEMU code just for fun. They only make changes when they need to.

[ya.dingus]

8/10 secondary attacks are bashes
4/10 bashes hit
2/10 bashes stun.

So you have a 20% chance of being stunned every time a secondary attack is triggered.

Your own damn math is even bad.

If 8/10 secondary attacks are bashes, how could that be 20%? like what?

Do you understand how percentages work?

Your viable hit pool is less because you hit less on secondaries. You've literally ignored the propability that the attacks are even bashes in the first place affect your baseline percentage on your stun success.

You need to go study on khan academy or something man, you are straight up confused on how it works.

IQ of an ogre over here.


Also it's less than 7 out of 10 attacks will result in a bash when kick is available.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Your own damn math is even bad.

If 8/10 secondary attacks are bashes, how could that be 20%? like what?

Do you understand how percentages work?

Your viable hit pool is less because you hit less on secondaries. You've literally ignored the propability that the attacks are even bashes in the first place affect your baseline percentage on your stun success.

You need to go study on khan academy or something man, you are straight up confused on how it works.

2/10 = 1/5 = 20%. What don't you understand?

Let me put it another way. 1 stun every 40 seconds on average, and you get a secondary attack every 8 seconds. 8 x 5 = 40. Just read the article you posted yourself https://wiki.project1999.com/Sakuragi%27s_Warrior_Guide

[ya.dingus]

2/10 = 1/5 = 20%. What don't you understand?

Let me put it another way. 1 stun every 40 seconds, and you get a secondary attack every 8 seconds. 8 x 5 = 40. Just read the article you posted yourself https://wiki.project1999.com/Sakuragi%27s_Warrior_Guide

Because that reductionist math doesn't reflect the actual probability of being stunned in combat?

What you need to do is calculate the chance a bash has to actually stun in a successful bash pool.

Then you calculate how many secondary attacks you will encounter in a given timespan, taking into the effect the type of mob, because Pets and warriors bash more frequently than other mobs which is the best rate you're going to get on FSI actually being good
https://wiki.project1999.com/Game_Mechanics


Then if you want to actually be accurate for you situation, you need to separate those by slowed vs non-slowed mobs secondary attack rates and do your calcs for each.


Then finally, you calculate by the total percentage you will actually be bashed that will result in a stun for the given window of time you are in melee combat with said mob before it is slowed (this is for shaman).

Do you see how the number keeps reducing every layer of calculation you do? It's not 25% to actually have FSI come in clutch for you.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Because that reductionist math doesn't reflect the actual probability of being stunned in combat?

What you need to do is calculate the chance a bash has to actually stun in a successful bash pool.

Then you calculate how many secondary attacks you will encounter in a given timespan, taking into the effect the type of mob, because Pets and warriors bash more frequently than other mobs which is the best rate you're going to get on FSI actually being good
https://wiki.project1999.com/Game_Mechanics


Then if you want to actually be accurate for you situation, you need to separate those by slowed vs non-slowed mobs secondary attack rates and do your calcs for each.


Then finally, you calculate by the total percentage you will actually be bashed that will result in a stun for the given window of time you are in melee combat with said mob before it is slowed (this is for shaman).

Do you see how the number keeps reducing every layer of calculation you do? It's not 25% to actually have FSI come in clutch for you.

Um, you're the one who posted https://wiki.project1999.com/Sakuragi%27s_Warrior_Guide . That is where you got the 5% number from lol. If you think the article is wrong, then you have admitted this evidence isn't valid for your argument.

So please show your "non reductionist" math that is clearly superior.

I can math out precisely how much HP you get per hour with Troll Regen at 60. It's 4800 HP per hour max, assuming your never full. Thats 1.5 minutes saved per hour on not casting 3 Torpors. Most Shamans are not going to be able to capitalize on that 1.5 minute savings, because spawn timers usually limit how many mobs you can kill. 60 Shamans aren't generally chain killing mobs, and you still haven't provided a camp a 60 Torpor Shaman is going to do where they will actually use that 1.5 minute savings.

Again, my example of Cliff Golems shows a Troll would not save any time with Regeneration, because Cliff Golems are a single spawn on a 6 minute timer, and it only takes 3 minutes to Torpor back to full.

[ya.dingus]

Um, you're the one who posted https://wiki.project1999.com/Sakuragi%27s_Warrior_Guide . That is where you got the 5% number from lol. If you think the article is wrong, then you have admitted this evidence isn't valid for your argument.

So please show your "non reductionist" math that is clearly superior.

I can math out precisely how much HP you get per hour with Troll Regen at 60. It's 4800 HP per hour max, assuming your never full. Thats 1.5 minutes saved per hour on not casting 3 Torpors. Most Shamans are not going to be able to capitalize on that 1.5 minute savings, because spawn timers usually limit how many mobs you can kill. 60 Shamans aren't generally chain killing mobs, and you still haven't provided a camp a 60 Torpor Shaman is going to do where they will actually use that 1.5 minute savings.

Again, my example of Cliff Golems shows a Troll would not save any time with Regeneration, because Cliff Golems are a single spawn on a 6 minute timer, and it only takes 3 minutes to Torpor back to full.

Where did i say the article is wrong? I said your calculation of 20% was wrong.

I can't tell if you're just being disingenuous again, or you can't read.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Where did i say the article is wrong? I said your calculation of 20% was wrong.

I can't tell if you're just being disingenuous again, or you can't read.

If you think the article is right, then my 20% math is right, and your 5% idea is wrong. From the article https://wiki.project1999.com/Sakuragi%27s_Warrior_Guide :


From a min-max perspective, Ogres are clearly the best. Aside from having the best stats, a quick back-of-the-envelope estimate shows the value of stun immunity: mobs get their secondary attack every 8 seconds, bash instead instead of kick 75% of the time, hit 50% of the time, and stun 50% of their hits. So if the mob isn't hasted you'll be spending roughly 2 seconds out of 40 (5%) of your time stunned.


Bash is 75% of the time, so you can round to 80% for easy math, that is what the article does. That is why he says you are stunned roughly 2 seconds out of 40. A single stun is 2 seconds. 8 seconds x 5 secondary attacks = 40 seconds, so you get 1 stun every 40 seconds on average. That is 20% chance to be stunned per secondary attack.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Where did i say the article is wrong?

To answer this specific question:


Also it's less than 7 out of 10 attacks will result in a bash when kick is available.

If you are going to make this claim, then you are admitting the article is inaccurate, because the article claims 75% of secondary attacks are bashes.

From the article https://wiki.project1999.com/Sakuragi%27s_Warrior_Guide :


Ogres are clearly the best. Aside from having the best stats, a quick back-of-the-envelope estimate shows the value of stun immunity: mobs get their secondary attack every 8 seconds, bash instead instead of kick 75% of the time, hit 50% of the time, and stun 50% of their hits.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

I took a look at my monks logs, I have all his combat logs from level 28 to 40. All of these mobs are unslowed.

The mobs landed a bash 1791 times, and missed their bashes 2263 times.

The mobs landed a kick 798 times, and missed their kicks 999 times.

1791 + 2263 + 798 + 999 = 5851 secondary attacks.

Total bashes = 4056

5851 * 0.75 = 4388

Based on this data, I can safely say the chance to bash is still 75%.

The number of times I was stunned is 598 times, so it looks like the chance to be stunned is 10%.

[Jimjam]

I don’t like using the phrase ‘secondary’ to mean kick/bash as it is also the name of the slot used to make dual wield attacks. Is there another phrase we could use?

[DeathsSilkyMist]

I don’t like using the phrase ‘secondary’ to mean kick/bash as it is also the name of the soot used to make dual wield attacks. Is there another phrase we could use?

I am not sure actually. I was using Sakuragi's terminology since we were discussing his article, but I don't know if there is a more official word for it.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Did a bit of a deeper dive. I have years of logs, so I can simply check how often I am getting bashed, stunned and kicked. This data is from 2018 to present.


Troll SK 55-58
===============
448 total stuns from bashes

6519 successful bashes

12040 missed bashes

2262 successful kicks

4678 missed kicks

Human Enchanter 13-30
=======================
452 total stuns from bashes

1313 successful bashes

830 missed bashes

567 successful kicks

356 missed kicks

Gnome Warrior 1-24
==================

377 total stuns from bashes

1408 successful bashes

1812 missed bashes

578 successful kicks

733 missed kicks

Iksar Monk 10-40
=================

1471 total stuns from bashes

4058 successful bashes

4529 missed bashes

1878 successful kicks

2116 missed kicks

Ogre Shaman 60 (has more log data than all of the characters above combined)
==============

507 total stuns. This number isn't very accurate when it comes to stuns from bashes, because this character specifically is fighting casters a lot. I also have a lot of raid logs here, which means I am in a lot more situations where I am getting hit from behind.

7876 successful bashes

11946 missed bashes

3066 successful kicks

4343 missed kicks

Data totals
========

Total stuns (non Ogre) = 2748

total successful bashes (non Ogre) = 13298

total missed bashes (non Ogre) = 19,211

Chance to be stunned = 2748/13298 = 0.2066 x 100 = 20%

Total Bashes (non Ogre) = 32509

Total Kicks (non Ogre) = 13208

Total Bashes/Kicks = 45717

45717 X 0.75 = 34287
45717 X 0.70 = 32001

Due to 32509 being close to 32001, it looks like it is a 70% chance to land a bash, not 75%.


In conclusion there is a 70% chance to be bashed per bash/kick attempt, and a 20% chance to be stunned on a bash hit.

Bashes landed 70% of the time, so the total chance of being stunned per bash/kick attempt is 14% (20 x 0.7) while the mob is unslowed, every 8 seconds.

[Jimjam]

Hmmm i think the stun rate isn’t fixed.

I don’t recall ever having an LDC stunning my 59 warrior (half elf) on red. I only remember getting stunned on hits to the rear when training out the zone.

The person could be right whom said stun chance may depend on level difference.

[Toxigen]

imagine arguing about 1999 game racials over a beautiful weekend

[DeathsSilkyMist]

https://www.project1999.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3568959&postcount=80 going to repost this from the other FSI thread if you are interested in a more detailed breakdown of the data I posted previously. This is data showing averages over a total of ~7300 kills.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

https://www.project1999.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3568975&postcount=85 please read this post instead, as I forgot to take into account miss chance in the previous post I linked. 85 has the complete calculation.

[sajbert]

Ogre size IS a problem. You can’t even click things in 3rd person view. I can’t stand not having AoN, guise can work too even if cast time is a bit of a pain (better vision though).Can’t shrink in every zone and gotta hassle with memming shrink.

Dex IS useful for proccing snares and the like. Charisma is pointless with charisma buff for vendoring, no other real uses. Wisdom is hard to cap but doable even as an Ogre.

FSI is pretty meh, you do get annoyed with not having it but you also get used to it. I wouldn’t even be surprised if ikky AC bonus is king in the end. No JBB is sad.

Barbs look cool and aren’t hated by everyone.

Regen is ace if you don’t have fungi or torpor.

[BrandGNU97]

My God, how is this still going? Sad really.

[Jimjam]

My God, how is this still going? Sad really.

cos JBB is just that darned good!

[BrandGNU97]

JBB > FSI?
DSM = Triggered. twitch twitch.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

JBB > FSI?
DSM = Triggered. twitch twitch.

I am not sure where you think I was triggered. I just keep posting facts, and then people get mad because FSI triggers them.

Just play Ogre and you get JBB + FSI:)

[Ripqozko]

I am not sure where you think I was triggered. I just keep posting facts, and then people get mad because FSI triggers them.

Just play Ogre and you get JBB + FSI:)

990

[Trelaboon]

It’s awesome while leveling but I basically never use it at 60. I prefer to just Pox and Bane and then Canni and refresh. Ended up selling it because I never really used it. I guess it has uses at 60 with torpor, but not worth the amount of plat it’s worth imo. Others may disagree. But while leveling it’s awesome, though not worth halting your leveling progress to farm play to buy one, as others mentioned.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

It’s awesome while leveling but I basically never use it at 60. I prefer to just Pox and Bane and then Canni and refresh. Ended up selling it because I never really used it. I guess it has uses at 60 with torpor, but not worth the amount of plat it’s worth imo. Others may disagree. But while leveling it’s awesome, though not worth halting your leveling progress to farm play to buy one, as others mentioned.

JBB is still great at 60. One common use is for clearing out trash that isn't too difficult, since you don't need to spend mana doing it.

I also use it when fighting WW dragons. If the dragon gets my health down faster than anticipated, I throw on a torpor and do 1-2 JBB casts while waiting to get back to safe levels of HP.

I also use it for low agro damage https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=umuVBewCNgY . With the new changes to poison/disease spells it may not be as necessary anymore, I need to test it.

[Toxigen]

oh lawd here we go again

[Trelaboon]

JBB is still great at 60. One common use is for clearing out trash that isn't too difficult, since you don't need to spend mana doing it.

I also use it when fighting WW dragons. If the dragon gets my health down faster than anticipated, I throw on a torpor and do 1-2 JBB casts while waiting to get back to safe levels of HP.

I also use it for low agro damage https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=umuVBewCNgY . With the new changes to poison/disease spells it may not be as necessary anymore, I need to test it.

You might be right. I have just found that the duration of pox/bane ends up lasting about the amount of time it takes me to canni back the mana I used to cast them, then torpor and by then bane has usually worn off. Bane does more dps than a JBB if chain casted with no interrupts, so it never made sense to me to use JBB over Bane when the time it takes to build the mana back up after casting it, is similar to the duration of bane.

I admittedly don’t enjoy my shaman that much and therefore don’t play him that often. I’d rather use my enchanter to farm, if I’m gonna do it, so I’m not the best authority on the class. I would never use a JBB over Bane though. The only time I could see clicking a JBB is on a mob that wouldn’t live long enough for Bane to run its course (which is almost never) or if you have 8 seconds left before bane wears off and you canni/torpor back to full, then I’d click it. But that’s not worth 16-18k to me.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

You might be right. I have just found that the duration of pox/bane ends up lasting about the amount of time it takes me to canni back the mana I used to cast them, then torpor and by then bane has usually worn off. Bane does more dps than a JBB if chain casted with no interrupts, so it never made sense to me to use JBB over Bane when the time it takes to build the mana back up after casting it, is similar to the duration of bane.

I admittedly don’t enjoy my shaman that much and therefore don’t play him that often. I’d rather use my enchanter to farm, if I’m gonna do it, so I’m not the best authority on the class. I would never use a JBB over Bane though. The only time I could see clicking a JBB is on a mob that wouldn’t live long enough for Bane to run its course (which is almost never) or if you have 8 seconds left before bane wears off and you canni/torpor back to full, then I’d click it. But that’s not worth 16-18k to me.

Yeah it's mostly a mana saving tool. The problem with high level Shaman spells is they all cost a lot of mana. There are plenty of times where I resort to JBB because it can save a bit of time on cannibalizing. If a mob is at like 5% HP when all your DoTs run off, it sucks to have to recast Bane on it to finish it off.

Since you have a 60 Enchanter that is generally the better class to farm on. I don't have a 60 Enchanter, so most of my farming is done on my Shaman. For someone who has both a 60 Enchanter and a 60 Shaman I agree JBB is less necessary since you aren't farming on your Shaman anyway. It's best when you main your Shaman. Saving a spell slot is really nice on a Shaman since typically 5/8 slots are filled already .

[Ripqozko]

oh lawd here we go again

[Bockscar]

Has to be kept in mind, too, that clicky items circumvent the global cooldown. While any instant-click item can reset the GCD, it can't reset the inherent cooldowns that some spells have. There will be times when you just have dead space between casts no matter what. In a lot of cases, you need to weigh a clicky item's cast time against the fact that you never have to wait for it, you can just start the cast immediately and then cast another spell immediately afterwards as well. By and large, you can probably treat an item with an 8.0 clicky as being functionally the same as a spell with a 6.0 cast time, just because you don't have to deal with any in-between waits.

[Ardok]

It's my life's mission to min/max a 20+ year old game to the point where I get no enjoyment out of it but I want a false sense of accomplishment of my life.

[sajbert]

It's my life's mission to min/max a 20+ year old game to the point where I get no enjoyment out of it but I want a false sense of accomplishment of my life.

You get it

[Bockscar]

I mean, is it any less nerdy to make major, character-defining decisions based purely on appearance in a game that looks this primitive? It's not as if you're choosing something that looks great, it's one step above preferring triangles over squares.

[eisley]

You might be right. I have just found that the duration of pox/bane ends up lasting about the amount of time it takes me to canni back the mana I used to cast them, then torpor and by then bane has usually worn off. Bane does more dps than a JBB if chain casted with no interrupts, so it never made sense to me to use JBB over Bane when the time it takes to build the mana back up after casting it, is similar to the duration of bane..

This is the correct answer. Either epic or Bane fully replace JBB.

[Toxigen]

There's usually a lot better things you can be doing than clicking JBB (at 60 w/ torpor).

Its amazing til you get bane/pox/epic/torpor tho.

[Crede]

There's usually a lot better things you can be doing than clicking JBB (at 60 w/ torpor).

Its amazing til you get bane/pox/epic/torpor tho.

Yep. Which is why iksar is best sham race

[ArbiterBlixen]

It's actually amazing if you're just lazy. Just spam the bracer instead of canni dance and other non sense.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

There's usually a lot better things you can be doing than clicking JBB (at 60 w/ torpor).

Its amazing til you get bane/pox/epic/torpor tho.

Not always. There are times where you are low on HP due to a mob getting lucky hits off on you, and it's too risky to keep cannibalizing. If all your DoTs are applied that is a perfect time to get a few JBB casts off while waiting for Torpor to tick you back up to safe levels. I do it quite frequently on WW Dragons.

JBB is still useful at 60.

It's also great when you need to clear easier mobs, and you don't want to waste mana on high powered dots.

[ArbiterBlixen]

Yup 100% it's still useful. I use it a bunch when i don't care about efficiency and just want to spam mindlessly.

[eisley]

Yep. Which is why iksar is best sham race

Imagine being a Shaman that isn't an Iksar. With a Guise.

[Penish]

no, its usefulness has completely deteriorated at 60 unless you plan on farming garbage, also Iksar /shrug

[DeathsSilkyMist]

no, its usefulness has completely deteriorated at 60 unless you plan on farming garbage, also Iksar /shrug

This is incorrect. I still use it quite a bit at 60. You can generally weave a few free clicks in between everything else. Free damage is great.

[Jimjam]

This is incorrect. I still use it quite a bit at 60. You can generally weave a few free clicks in between everything else. Free damage is great.

Is it a substantial dps increase?

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Is it a substantial dps increase?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=umuVBewCNgY In this video I did 5000 damage with JBB, which is 1/6 of a Cliff Golem's life.

[Penish]

Silky is not a very good player folks, watch his vids. the idea of missing canni's in favor of a lifeless nuke when soloing literally anything at 60, is laughable.

But play how ya like that's the important part, right?

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Silky is not a very good player folks, watch his vids. the idea of missing canni's in favor of a lifeless nuke when soloing literally anything at 60, is laughable.

But play how ya like that's the important part, right?

Simply saying "someone's a bad player" isn't an argument. Come back when you can actually articulate a thought. Sounds like Penish is a player who doesn't need to be giving advise.

If you think JBB is a bad item at 60, you don't understand how the game works.

[Jimjam]

Silky is not a very good player folks, watch his vids. the idea of missing canni's in favor of a lifeless nuke when soloing literally anything at 60, is laughable.

But play how ya like that's the important part, right?

Does it matter whether he is a bad player? What even is a bad player? He seems to enjoy himself and enjoy sharing his adventures. Seeing as this is a game not a competitive sport that is pretty much the point.

[Penish]

Yeah 240 mana or a 260 hitpoint nuke is a pretty difficult decision to make (It's really not) and it does matter if you're a bad player especially when you're giving out "advice".

Must suck to suck /shrug.

Good luck elf pals, ZoOOOOm!

[sajbert]

Silky is not a very good player folks, watch his vids. the idea of missing canni's in favor of a lifeless nuke when soloing literally anything at 60, is laughable.

But play how ya like that's the important part, right?
Where did the bad ogre touch you?

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Yeah 240 mana or a 260 hitpoint nuke is a pretty difficult decision to make (It's really not) and it does matter if you're a bad player especially when you're giving out "advice".

Must suck to suck /shrug.

Good luck elf pals, ZoOOOOm!

Shamans find the time to cast Torpor, Slow, Malo, Epic, Bane, and Pox in-between cannibalizing.

If you can't find the time to cast JBB, you simply need to improve your ability to weave spells into your cannibalize routine. Remember that you aren't always re-applying DoTs/Debuffs, since they take time to finish.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oPxeOVuX0G8 - When fighting Ionat solo, I cast 33 Torpors and 121 Cannibalizes, which means 4 Cannibalizes per Torpor. I didn't need more than that to win the fight. That means you only need to spend 18-20 seconds on Torpor + Cannibalize per minute. You've got 40 seconds to do other things.

It's not a good idea to always be cannibalizing on a tougher fight like Ionat. You need to maintain a certain HP percentage to avoid getting killed by a few lucky double attacks in a row. That means you are sometimes waiting for Torpor to tick you back to safe HP levels. If you have nothing else to cast in that time, you might as well throw in a JBB cast or two.

[Penish]

Torpor > Malo > Slow > Epic > Pox > Bane to open.

Torpor > Epic > Pox > Bane to win.

A JBB rotation, lol. Only if you want to spend an extra 10 minutes killing said target.

Get good son

Maybe just an oversight on your part, but watching that torpor drop consistently through the fight is just raping you're infinite cast cycle of useful spells, as mentioned above.

Also how do you not top slot your clickie buffs for the debuff, vid's just plain hard to watch, lol

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Torpor > Malo > Slow > Epic > Pox > Bane to open.

Torpor > Epic > Pox > Bane to win.

A JBB rotation, lol. Only if you want to spend an extra 10 minutes killing said target.

Get good son

Torpor > Epic > Pox > Pet is good enough, and gives you breathing room to correct your HP when Ionat hits you hard multiple times in a row.

When you are face tanking a mob, you are losing HP. This means you aren't always able to cannibalize mana back. Recasting Bane every 40 seconds is a riskier strategy since it can be resisted even with Malo. Losing 400 mana from a resist can be a bad setback depending on your current HP/Mana.

Or you can keep the 400 mana and throw in 1-2 JBB casts instead. You won't lose anything if it gets resisted. Dying in a fight due to spending too much mana in a short period of time will waste more time than extending the fight a few minutes by playing it safe.


Also how do you not top slot your clickie buffs for the debuff, vid's just plain hard to watch, lol

I did top slot my clickie buffs. I have Ring 9 + SoW/Fungi Staff + Green Flower + Black Flower. You clearly aren't watching lol. Not suprising since you are watching it simply to try and find flaws, instead of actually trying to see whats going on.

[Snaggles]

The only time a JBB makes sense is mana free group dps (say a trio with another healer and melee), killing greens, if a fight won’t last the duration of Bane, or pre-torp. Those situations do happen but I sold mine long ago after the epic and torp.

Even most shorter fights or npc’s that don’t have insane hps or regen it doesn’t make sense to use Pox. You already are fully Malo-line debuffing for less resists on slow, epic, and bane resists. You might even be tash-sticking as well. Bane is efficient and works fast. It’s a lot of click-upkeep just to stay on top with canni so DR line is a lot of gems and timers to add to the mix.

I admit me not using pox is due to not fighting marathon mobs that need it. That aspect of the shaman is the “bane” of my existence.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

The only time a JBB makes sense is mana free group dps (say a trio with another healer and melee), killing greens, if a fight won’t last the duration of Bane, or pre-torp. Those situations do happen but I sold mine long ago after the epic and torp.

Even most shorter fights or npc’s that don’t have insane hps or regen it doesn’t make sense to use Pox. You already are fully Malo-line debuffing for less resists on slow, epic, and bane resists. You might even be tash-sticking as well. Bane is efficient and works fast. It’s a lot of click-upkeep just to stay on top with canni so DR line is a lot of gems and timers to add to the mix.

I admit me not using pox is due to not fighting marathon mobs that need it. That aspect of the shaman is the “bane” of my existence.

It depends on what you mean by a "short fight". https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qS3uoIHTu_c - I use Pox + Bane in Chardok because the zone has a 20 minute respawn time, so you want to kill things as fast as possible before repops. Having JBB allows you to kill a bit faster while your DoTs are ticking as well.

For WW Dragons Bane makes less sense because they have good resists and high damage even after being Slowed + Maloed. They also take more effort to pull, which means you are making the decision between trying to speed up the fight a bit, or risk dying and having to run back, get your corpse, and re-pull. Shamans don't have any tools to help with pulling, so you are at the mercy of mob positions.

[Penish]

Agreed just pointing out his lack of familiarity with math, consistent torpors equates to a much larger pool of mana to use hence the permanent uptime of pox / bane.

This fight is NOT a marathon fight, its just looks that way with his "efficient" solo'ing techniques

also lol

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Agreed just pointing out his lack of familiarity with math, consistent torpors equates to a much larger pool of mana to use hence the permanent uptime of pox / bane.

This fight is NOT a marathon fight, its just looks that way with his "efficient" solo'ing techniques

also lol

Ionat is a marathon fight. It has 25k HP and high HP regen in combat. You need multiple DoTs to overcome the HP regen. That's why I am using Epic + Pox + Pet. Ionat can also damage spike you even after being slowed.

It is pretty clear you haven't fought WW Dragons before.

[Penish]

Your videos speak for themselves, and the mental gymnastics involved for such shoddy workmanship with what you think would be "simple" after 25 years of EQ is funny to say the least.

If you had your torpor up consistently you would never see HP problems, let alone mana.

But cool story though, keep on keepin on lol ;)

[DeathsSilkyMist]

You're videos speak for themselves, and the mental gymnastics involved for such shoddy workmanship with what you think would be "simple" after 25 years of EQ is funny to say the least.

If you had your torpor up consistently you would never see HP problems, let alone mana.

But cool story though, keep on keepin on lol ;)

You couldn't even figure out that I had 4 clickie buffs on my first four slots for debuffs. I am not sure why you think badly written insults are going to convince people you have a vastly superior play style.

Thanks for conceding. It is clear you can only provide poorly constructed insults, and nothing else.

[Snaggles]

It depends on what you mean by a "short fight". https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qS3uoIHTu_c - I use Pox + Bane in Chardok because the zone has a 20 minute respawn time, so you want to kill things as fast as possible before repops. Having JBB allows you to kill a bit faster while your DoTs are ticking as well.

I’ve killed a lot of stuff in Chardok, all the normal shaman spawns. Malo/slow/sini/epic/bane. Canni torp and repeat as needed.

I can’t see justifying Pox or ebolt unless c2 and potg. Bane works really quick. Even keeping up with the cycle life of that with torp/canni is difficult. Pox and JBB is ok skipping Bane but otherwise those low duration dots are a PITA to click between.

[Toxigen]

I’ve killed a lot of stuff in Chardok, all the normal shaman spawns. Malo/slow/sini/epic/bane. Canni torp and repeat as needed.

I can’t see justifying Pox or ebolt unless c2 and potg. Bane works really quick. Even keeping up with the cycle life of that with torp/canni is difficult. Pox and JBB is ok skipping Bane but otherwise those low duration dots are a PITA to click between.

Hm, I always prio'd pox over bane....and used bane when I had luxury mana or needed something to die quickly due to either impending respawns or some other bullshit.

But its been a while for me.

[greatdane]

There's not that much difference in damage between Bane and Ebolt, and Ebolt actually has a marginally better DPM. More importantly, Malo/sini doesn't reduce disease resist. If the goal is mana efficiency and not finishing the mob as fast as possible, it makes sense to forgo the disease dot. While Pox is slightly more DPM than the poison dots, it's not by much, and it gets resisted far more often. Nobody wants to devote a spell slot, mana and cast time to Insidious Decay. It's hard enough fitting in all the shit you need.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

There's not that much difference in damage between Bane and Ebolt, and Ebolt actually has a marginally better DPM. More importantly, Malo/sini doesn't reduce disease resist. If the goal is mana efficiency and not finishing the mob as fast as possible, it makes sense to forgo the disease dot. While Pox is slightly more DPM than the poison dots, it's not by much, and it gets resisted far more often. Nobody wants to devote a spell slot, mana and cast time to Insidious Decay. It's hard enough fitting in all the shit you need.

The benefit of Pox is it gives you more time between recasts. This is the safer strategy on marathon mobs like Ionat who have high regen and can damage spike you unexpectedly even while slowed. You get more opportunities to Cannibalize/Torpor while waiting for your DoTs to clear. You can always apply a Bane in between if you have the extra mana. With a slowed mob you can sit right after they hit you and you'll have enough time to memorize a spell before they hit you if you need to swap out Insidious Decay.

Spamming Bane is the faster but riskier strategy, unless the mob is already easy. I haven't seen Pox get resisted "far more often" than poison. Poison gets resisted more from my experience. I imagine this is just RNG from both perspectives, unless someone can show some data about mob resists.

[greatdane]

Those are fringe cases, though. I don't imagine that anyone who sees fit to ask if JBB is any good is about to embark on an attempt at a WW dragon. For any ordinary shaman-soloable mob up to and including juggs, the fact that Malo doesn't reduce disease resist makes it necessary to consider whether or not it's worth using Pox at all. By and large, if you're able to kill the mob without using a disease dot, it's better not to. The risk of a resist, or the hassle of including Insidious Decay in your routine, makes it not worth doing in any fight that doesn't require min-maxing every moment of the encounter. Disease dots are not that much more efficient than poison dots, and a resist can fuck you over from the get-go.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Those are fringe cases, though. I don't imagine that anyone who sees fit to ask if JBB is any good is about to embark on an attempt at a WW dragon. For any ordinary shaman-soloable mob up to and including juggs, the fact that Malo doesn't reduce disease resist makes it necessary to consider whether or not it's worth using Pox at all. By and large, if you're able to kill the mob without using a disease dot, it's better not to. The risk of a resist, or the hassle of including Insidious Decay in your routine, makes it not worth doing in any fight that doesn't require min-maxing every moment of the encounter. Disease dots are not that much more efficient than poison dots, and a resist can fuck you over from the get-go.

I don't have a problem using Pox without Insidious Decay in most cases. It really doesn't get resisted that often from my experience. I also don't have a problem switching from Insidious Decay back to Bane in between mob swings once it's been slowed. Pox is good. JBB is good. You just need to think about use cases more and try things out.

[Snaggles]

The best argument for JBB is it being 1/5th the price of an epic and resellable so from 45-60 it's a tolerable way to grind.

Once you get torp mana is less limited. JBB becomes a green killer like for someone whos painfully slogging through droga or adding to quick kills with a duo/trio after slowing. One click of Bane is a massive chunk of hps for the same cast speed...it's the workhorse of your spells and for most stuff the only damage spell you need on the bar.

The more hps something has the more a double-line debuff and disease makes sense. Hell start meleeing with your scourge mallet too I guess. Just not low hp stuff like in Chardok. On non-rooted stuff where you can sit/swap spells if you are quick, keeping disease on the bar takes up 3 gems. It's also half the kill speed of bane only once fully debuffed.

I guess if I was moving through greens I might pull with it, root, and epic click the epic. That gives the most dot/mana for the least amount of clicks. Overall though it's pretty underwhelming unless killing things in that 25k+ hp range, speculatively as I never have done that.

[zelld52]

Is it a substantial dps increase?

JBB is +33dps -- 8s cast.

In that time, you can regain 246 mana with Cannibalize IV. You can then use that 246 mana to Torpor yourself, so that you can start Cannibalizing again. Usually by the time the Torpor ticks are through, Bane of Nife has run out, and you need to recast it. If you have mana leftover, another Torpor is good, and more Cannibalizing....etc ... etc.

Don't know where to fit in a JBB 8s click in that time for +33dps. Would rather use that 8s to Torpor, Cannibalize, a combination of both, or cast one of the passive damage spells like Bane, Pox, Plague, Epic click..

[DeathsSilkyMist]

The best argument for JBB is it being 1/5th the price of an epic and resellable so from 45-60 it's a tolerable way to grind.

Once you get torp mana is less limited. JBB becomes a green killer like for someone whos painfully slogging through droga or adding to quick kills with a duo/trio after slowing. One click of Bane is a massive chunk of hps for the same cast speed...it's the workhorse of your spells and for most stuff the only damage spell you need on the bar.

The more hps something has the more a double-line debuff and disease makes sense. Hell start meleeing with your scourge mallet too I guess. Just not low hp stuff like in Chardok. On non-rooted stuff where you can sit/swap spells if you are quick, keeping disease on the bar takes up 3 gems. It's also half the kill speed of bane only once fully debuffed.

I guess if I was moving through greens I might pull with it, root, and epic click the epic. That gives the most dot/mana for the least amount of clicks. Overall though it's pretty underwhelming unless killing things in that 25k+ hp range, speculatively as I never have done that.

While Torpor does drastically increase your mana, you still have to wait for DoTs to clear since you can't stack Bane multiple times. You can stack Ebolt with Bane, but that assumes you have the spellbar slot in that scenario.

When you have some downtime between DoTing, Debuffing, Torporing, and Cannibalizing, JBB gives you free damage that you couldn't otherwise get due to limited spell slots. Having more damage that isn't tied to your spellbar is great on a class that is hurting for space on their spellbar.

JBB is also nice for saving mana when a mob is going to clear all their DoTs with a few % HP remaining. Spending 320-420 mana on Bane/Ebolt is going to be a waste in that scenario, especially if you have other mobs yet to kill.

JBB is +33dps -- 8s cast.

In that time, you can regain 246 mana with Cannibalize IV. You can then use that 246 mana to Torpor yourself, so that you can start Cannibalizing again. Usually by the time the Torpor ticks are through, Bane of Nife has run out, and you need to recast it. If you have mana leftover, another Torpor is good, and more Cannibalizing....etc ... etc.

Don't know where to fit in a JBB 8s click in that time for +33dps. Would rather use that 8s to Torpor, Cannibalize, a combination of both, or cast one of the passive damage spells like Bane, Pox, Plague, Epic click..

You don't want to always cannibalize all the time in every fight. Otherwise you will die from damage spikes. When I am fighting Ionat I average 4 Cannibalizes per Torpor. I don't go too crazy, because getting double attacked for 450 damage twice in a row (even while slowed) can kill you. If you are at a dangerous HP level, and there is no other spell to cast while you are waiting for Torpor to tick you back up, might as well throw in a JBB or two for extra DPS.

As a quick example https://youtu.be/oPxeOVuX0G8?feature=shared&t=745 - This video starts at 12:25. Between 12:25 and 12:33 I take 776 damage from Ionat and I was Cannibalizing, which was another 148 damage. In 8 seconds I took 924 damage while the mob was slowed. That is 35% of my total HP pool at 2620 life in 8 seconds, with buffs and raid gear. What if this damage spike occurred while you were in the middle of casting Torpor, and Torpor got interrupted? You could be taking 1500 damage or so total without Torpor. I've had bad luck like that happen before. It's simply not worth it to risk dying on a long fight like Ionat. You waste way more time dying than simply playing it safe and extending the fight a few minutes.

[long.liam]

Of course the JBB is good. Any kind of mana free DPS is nice to have. Lets you save your mana for healing yourself or other players. Can even let the pet tank while clicking the JBB. That way you don't even take dmg during the fight. JBB is almost 33 DPS. Pretty close to the DPS of Bane of Nife = 39 DPS, assuming no resists and no break in between each cast. If JBB will land I usually prefer using that over Bane. 425 Mana is a lot to lose in a difficult fight, especially if it gets resisted.

[Toxigen]

There is a reason most end game shaman sell their JBBs.

[loramin]

There is a reason most end game shaman sell their JBBs.

Source? Let's see the survey you based that "fact" on.

[Troxx]

I sold mine after torpor.

No regrets

[zelld52]

I sold mine when I got epic at 54. I can't imagine trying to do permafrost bears 55-60 using a JBB constantly spamming and not cannibalizing instead of epic click, paralizing earth and chill

[Snaggles]

Source? Let's see the survey you based that "fact" on.

Well a lot of endgame sham's are Iksar's so 100% of those plus some others at 60 who thought the 15k could go somewhere better than a stat-less click toy :D

[Balladin]

Ogre Torp shaman still using my JBB here

[Penish]

Silky still doesn't understand how to solo efficiently at 60, but I'm glad to see a vast majority of the crowd here does

cannis + torpor will outweigh any instance you could literally ever click a JBB at 60
Lay down the mental gymnastics for a day and just admit you're wrong Silky (not that it will ever happen) lawl

what a fuckin mook

[Toxigen]

oy m8 wot the fok u just say?

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Silky still doesn't understand how to solo efficiently at 60, but I'm glad to see a vast majority of the crowd here does

cannis + torpor will outweigh any instance you could literally ever click a JBB at 60
Lay down the mental gymnastics for a day and just admit you're wrong Silky (not that it will ever happen) lawl

what a fuckin mook

We are still waiting for you to show us how to play the game. Unfortunately you continue to concede that you have no idea what you are talking about. Insults are not an argument, nor are they tips for how to play. I doubt you will show us anything, since you are probably too scared to post a video.

There's no reason not to have and use JBB at 60 if you are not an Iksar. I am sorry you are unable to think about how to play the game in ways other than your narrow incorrect assumptions.

[Snaggles]

DSM, can you run a 2+ min parse showing how to mix in debuffs, dots, canni, torp, and JBB without letting them expire?

It should be as simple as copy/pasting your log file here.

For full disclosure I have my doubts the mix of clicks is as efficient as you think. I hope I’m wrong but rather than just taking something as truth we should probably see all the messages for ourselves.

[sajbert]

Well to be fair, selling JBB is pretty common and it's more important to have spells like torpor, malo, your dots and the like. After that I'd still understand someone wanting to get WR bags or MQ a pegi cloak or somesuch before rebuying their JBB.

[Crede]

We are still waiting for you to show us how to play the game. Unfortunately you continue to concede that you have no idea what you are talking about. Insults are not an argument, nor are they tips for how to play. I doubt you will show us anything, since you are probably too scared to post a video.

There's no reason not to have and use JBB at 60 if you are not an Iksar. I am sorry you are unable to think about how to play the game in ways other than your narrow incorrect assumptions.

you’d have to prove using jbb is somehow resulting in more kills per hour considering that’s how you seem to measure dps value in other threads frequently writing off minor dps gains.

You can’t say things like 20 extra str isnt worth it while also saying having jbb is good to have to mix in 1-2 clicks without providing actual evidence of real value.

We will await your defense of your contradicting claims.

[Toxigen]

you’d have to prove using jbb is somehow resulting in more kills per hour considering that’s how you seem to measure dps value in other threads frequently writing off minor dps gains.

You can’t say things like 20 extra str isnt worth it while also saying having jbb is good to have to mix in 1-2 clicks without providing actual evidence of real value.

We will await your defense of your contradicting claims.

+1 for fun crowd

[Troxx]

Let’s do some math!

In 8 seconds you could
-click JBB once for 263 dmg
OR
-cast torpor and have 2 seconds left over
OR
-cast canni 4 2-3x

In 32 seconds you could …

Click JBB 4x (1052 damage)
OR

-cast torpor once (1200-1500 heal) subtract 200 mana
AND
-cast canni4 8x (656 mana for 1184hp) - net positive 455 mana and 16-315 health
AND
-cast bane, pox or Ebolt once with mana left over

Dmg per mana with those spells range 3.88-4.86 damage per mana yielding 1789-2216dmg for the surplus mana you generated.

That’s why I sold the JBB. Between managing debuffs and frankly having better returns on time invested by casting actual spells … there are much better uses of your time as a shaman than clicking your JBB at level 60.


… unless you’re trying to put out damage in a fast paced xp group with 2 charm pets failing miserably at trying to keep up with a mage pet.

(Ps: or farm low level greens)

[greatdane]

I don't have a problem using Pox without Insidious Decay in most cases. It really doesn't get resisted that often from my experience.

If you're 60 and casting on low blues, sure. In the kinds of situations that OP is likely to end up in - and OP said he's "high enough level to use JBB," so take from that what you will - tossing out disease dots without the DR debuff is a very poor choice. While you could book-swap it between melee swings of a slowed mob, that's a bit much to include as a matter of course. In anything but fringe cases (like a 60 shaman easyfarming with epic and all spells), devoting two spell slots/swaps to the disease dot is not really going to be worth the hassle it takes unless one specifically derives enjoyment from maximizing one's DPM. Hell, even then, it's only good DPM on mobs unusually high HP.

In very nearly all cases that are relevant to OP's question, you're better off just sticking with poison dots and JBB spam (though there won't be time for many casts of it even pre-60) because a single cast of Malowhatever will cover that, and the mobs that someone is likely to kill if they say that they're "high enough level to use JBB" will not live long enough to where it makes any sort of sense to work a DR debuff and disease dot into the rotation. That is, as you cherrypicked for your example, only worth doing if you're a level 60 shaman soloing dragons and things like that.

You do have a tendency to campaign for the fringe cases, and while I'm also a great lover of the extreme ends of this old game's mechanical spectrum, it's not always the right answer to give. OP is (or was, when he posted in fucking July) probably in his late 40s wondering if JBB is worth getting. Telling him what you can do at level 60 doesn't give him a very good answer, and that's a thing that happens too much around here.

This thread has a hell of a lot of "you can do this at level 60" theorycrafting for a guy who said he's just high enough level to use JBB. If he's like level 50, the best way to kill shit is malosimsalabim, slow, poison dot, and JBB spam, while dogdog gnaws away from behind.

[Snaggles]

I’ve just always seen the shaman game as pretty basic. Don’t die (pre-slow), don’t run out of mana (canni/torp constantly), NEVER let Bane or Epic linger without reapplying.

In theory JBB is good dps. You just basically have to do nothing else and ideally take no damage. To keep up with bane assuming no free server tick (7 only) a JBB has to click 6x at 8 seconds vs bane 1x at 5 seconds. Even then, the JBB is 48 seconds where bane is only 42 for that damage duration so you can cast again to refresh.

[zelld52]

JBB is okay if you're not tanking.

If you're tanking you need to keep Torpor up.

Torpor is 200 mana for 4 ticks. (24s)

Need to cast Cannbalize IV 4x to get enough mana for Torpor.

Canni 4x = 2 ticks (12s)

So you have 12s leftover before you NEED to Torpor again, and need to start canni'ing again for the next Torpor. Do you re-slow, refresh DoTs, , get a few extra cannibalize in, or click JBB? Hrmmm

[DeathsSilkyMist]

you’d have to prove using jbb is somehow resulting in more kills per hour considering that’s how you seem to measure dps value in other threads frequently writing off minor dps gains.

You can’t say things like 20 extra str isnt worth it while also saying having jbb is good to have to mix in 1-2 clicks without providing actual evidence of real value.

We will await your defense of your contradicting claims.

I am not sure why you think 20 points of starting stats into STR is related to a mana free clickie nuke on a class that basically stops meleeing once they get JBB. Please stop trying to spout nonsense because you couldn't prove your point about starting stats in a different thread. I have video evidence of using JBB at 60. You have nonsensical commentary.

DSM, can you run a 2+ min parse showing how to mix in debuffs, dots, canni, torp, and JBB without letting them expire?

It should be as simple as copy/pasting your log file here.

For full disclosure I have my doubts the mix of clicks is as efficient as you think. I hope I’m wrong but rather than just taking something as truth we should probably see all the messages for ourselves.

I've already shown my Ionat fight https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oPxeOVuX0G8 . I was averaging 4 Cannibalizes per Torpor on a marathon fight against a hard mob. That is about 20 seconds every minute. You can use your imagination to fill in the other 40 seconds.

You can also look at https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=umuVBewCNgY - I did 5000 damage to the Cliff Golem with just JBB, which is 1/6th of it's life.

If you're 60 and casting on low blues, sure.

Pox doesn't get resisted that often on tough fights either. Not really sure why you keep insisting Pox gets resisted a lot. You have no evidence to back it up, and personally I haven't seen it. I use Pox a lot on tougher mobs, so I would have noticed if it was getting resisted a ton.

J
So you have 12s leftover before you NEED to Torpor again, and need to start canni'ing again for the next Torpor. Do you re-slow, refresh DoTs, , get a few extra cannibalize in, or click JBB? Hrmmm

I don't know how many times I have to keep saying you don't want to Torpor/Cannibalize all the time in certain fights. I don't know why people keep assuming this is true.

As a quick example https://youtu.be/oPxeOVuX0G8?feature=shared&t=745 - This video starts at 12:25. Between 12:25 and 12:33 I take 776 damage from Ionat and I was Cannibalizing, which was another 148 damage. In 8 seconds I took 924 damage while the mob was slowed. That is 35% of my total HP pool at 2620 life in 8 seconds, with buffs and raid gear. What if this damage spike occurred while you were in the middle of casting Torpor, and Torpor got interrupted? You could be taking 1500 damage or so total without Torpor. I've had bad luck like that happen before. It's simply not worth it to risk dying on a long fight like Ionat. You waste way more time dying than simply playing it safe and extending the fight a few minutes.

[Troxx]

no response to math?

[Penish]

If you've noticed, Silk is a legit headcase.

Literally 98% of the people in this thread know he's wrong, and have also proved it, yet somehow he still disregards any concrete information posted on these pages and moves right into I'm right mode.

Apparently this is the hill he's going to die on, lawl

[zelld52]

Wait Silky so you're saying if you're a shaman tanking a mob, you DONT want torpor up all the time?

I'm struggling to understand when that is.

[Penish]

Wait Silky so you're saying if you're a shaman tanking a mob, you DONT want torpor up all the time?

I'm struggling to understand when that is.

ill take this one for silky

its usually somewhere between where your brain or fingers fail

but he'll justify this somehow

im sure of it

also lol

[DeathsSilkyMist]

ill take this one for silky

its usually somewhere between where your brain or fingers fail

but he'll justify this somehow

im sure of it

also lol

We are still waiting for you to show us how to play. So far you are too cowardly to do so, and continue to concede you have no idea what you are talking about.

Thanks for showing you can only provide insults.

Wait Silky so you're saying if you're a shaman tanking a mob, you DONT want torpor up all the time?

I'm struggling to understand when that is.

I didn't say that. Nice strawman. Please read next time. I said you don't want to cannibalize all the time, since damage spikes can kill you. On Ionat I average 4 cannibalizes per Torpor, with Torpor up all the time. It's silly to think you can always cannibalize the full 1200-1500 HP on a mob that can deal 800+ damage in 8 seconds while slowed.

[zelld52]

I don't know how many times I have to keep saying you don't want to Torpor/Cannibalize all the time in certain fights. I don't know why people keep assuming this is true.


Did I misunderstand what you said here? You want Torpor up all the time. Torpor is 200 mana. Shaman need to cannibalize to get mana.

I'm just not understanding

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Did I misunderstand what you said here? You want Torpor up all the time. Torpor is 200 mana. Shaman need to cannibalize to get mana.

I'm just not understanding

You are not understanding because you are interested in trying to "gotcha" me. Nowhere in that sentence do I say "You should not have Torpor up all the time". I said "Torpor/Cannibalize" to express the concept of using the HP from Torpor to Cannibalize. However, I agree I should have just said "Cannibalize" for absolute clarity. I can see why you might have thought "Torpor/Cannibalize" meant that I was including Torpor as a spell to not always cast. That was not my intent. You should always have Torpor up if you are able to.

Did you just ignore this part?


As a quick example https://youtu.be/oPxeOVuX0G8?feature=shared&t=745 - This video starts at 12:25. Between 12:25 and 12:33 I take 776 damage from Ionat and I was Cannibalizing, which was another 148 damage. In 8 seconds I took 924 damage while the mob was slowed. That is 35% of my total HP pool at 2620 life in 8 seconds, with buffs and raid gear. What if this damage spike occurred while you were in the middle of casting Torpor, and Torpor got interrupted? You could be taking 1500 damage or so total without Torpor. I've had bad luck like that happen before. It's simply not worth it to risk dying on a long fight like Ionat. You waste way more time dying than simply playing it safe and extending the fight a few minutes.

The context of this part should have made it clear as to what I was saying. Taking a lot of damage in a short period of time means that you sometimes need to use Torpor to heal yourself, rather than exclusively using it for Cannibalize. This means you are not Cannibalizing, and can use that time for something else. If you get interrupted in the middle of recasting Torpor, you will not have it on for the next 6 seconds. That is not me suggesting you shouldn't have Torpor up all the time. However, the reality is sometimes you may not have Torpor on due to interrupts or fizzles. This is why you need to be tactical in using Cannibalize, instead of just assuming you can spam it all the time simply because you have Torpor as a spell.

[Toxigen]

100 PAGES INCOMING BOYS

[zelld52]

You are not understanding because you are interested in trying to "gotcha" me. Nowhere in that sentence do I say "You should not have Torpor up all the time".

I'm not trying to "gotcha" you, bro. I want to understand what you mean.

I also never said that Torpor is exclusively for Cannibalize.

What I was saying, is that in my 2 years of experience as a level 60 shaman with Torpor: I don't see a good time to use JBB in a fight like this, unless I'm not tanking.

8s is more than 1 tick, and each tick is important in these fights. So if I had to choose between
using up 1.3 ticks on a JBB cast,
or a few Cannibalize,
or a re-slow,
or refreshing DoTs,
or casting a new Torpor
-- JBB would be the last thing on my list.

And from the fights I've had,... If I ever have downtime in my spell rotation, I Cannibalize. If I was too low HP to Cannibalize, wait a tick for Torpor to heal 300HP and then start Cannibalizing for the next Torpor.

And for levelling: JBB can break a root. Which is why I stopped using mine when I got epic at level 54. Much easier to root park 4 mobs and epic DoT them down simultaneously than it is to slow tank a mob and JBB spam. And no downtime with Root rotting, since you can Cannibalize and bandage while the mobs are rotting.

So, I agree with the consensus of most shaman who have reached 60 on p99, that JBB is basically a powerlevel from 45-52, but then it has diminishing returns the further you get into the 50s. So much so, that most shaman will sell their JBB after getting epic. (Or to help fund a Child's Tear MQ)

[DeathsSilkyMist]

I'm not trying to "gotcha" you, bro. I want to understand what you mean.

I also never said that Torpor is exclusively for Cannibalize.

What I was saying, is that in my 2 years of experience as a level 60 shaman with Torpor: I don't see a good time to use JBB in a fight like this, unless I'm not tanking.

8s is more than 1 tick, and each tick is important in these fights. So if I had to choose between
using up 1.3 ticks on a JBB cast,
or a few Cannibalize,
or a re-slow,
or refreshing DoTs,
or casting a new Torpor
-- JBB would be the last thing on my list.

And from the fights I've had,... If I ever have downtime in my spell rotation, I Cannibalize. If I was too low HP to Cannibalize, wait a tick for Torpor to heal 300HP and then start Cannibalizing for the next Torpor.

And for levelling: JBB can break a root. Which is why I stopped using mine when I got epic at level 54. Much easier to root park 4 mobs and epic DoT them down simultaneously than it is to slow tank a mob and JBB spam. And no downtime with Root rotting, since you can Cannibalize and bandage while the mobs are rotting.

So, I agree with the consensus of most shaman who have reached 60 on p99, that JBB is basically a powerlevel from 45-52, but then it has diminishing returns the further you get into the 50s. So much so, that most shaman will sell their JBB after getting epic. (Or to help fund a Child's Tear MQ)

I appreciate that you are not trying to gotcha me.

I am saying there are times to use JBB in difficult fights, because you cannot always Cannibalize. The issue is you keep emphasizing that you prefer to Cannibalize during downtime. That is not always a good strategy on difficult fights where you can be damage spiked. When waiting for Torpor to tick you back up, you can use JBB. There are times where you need to heal more than 300 HP to get back to safe HP levels after getting damage spiked. You might as well JBB if you can't Cannibalize and all your DoTs/Debuffs are applied.

For leveling, you don't root/rot with JBB. You face tank with JBB. That is how you solve the root breaking problem when leveling with JBB. Obviously if you do happen to have Epic while leveling, root rotting 4+ mobs is going to be more efficient. However, not everybody has Epic while leveling, especially if they only have enough money for either Torpor or Epic, and not both.

Please stop claiming you can't use JBB to level quickly from 45-60. It worked really well for me. You have no evidence to suggest JBB falls off in the 50s, so I am not sure why you keep insisting. You simply stopped using it because you got Epic, and created this assumption. It's better to save for Torpor first, and get Epic if you can afford it. It is not a good idea to get Epic first to level, and then be broke at 60 and not have Torpor.

[zelld52]

It is not a good idea to get Epic first to level, and then be broke at 60 and not have Torpor.

I can agree to disagree with you about the JBB effectiveness at 60. But, this is a take I just cannot stand for.

a) Epic doesn't have to cost money. When I was trying for epic, I would track the golems ToD and try to inspire my guild to raid fear if they were in window. This worked.

b) Epic is the fastest way to level past JBB effective level range. Pick a zone with melee mobs. Root rot 4 at a time with 0 downtime. Velks? Sure. Permafrost. Yeah! Howling Stones, you bet! If you like levelling more slowly, WL Geos? I guess.

c) I'd rather be 60 without Torpor and Epic than be 55 with enough money for Torpor and no epic. Grinding exp is the most monotonous, boring part of the game. Earning plat is fun. Make the boring part simple, and then figure out the fun part later. But I suppose that's just me.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

I can agree to disagree with you about the JBB effectiveness at 60. But, this is a take I just cannot stand for.

a) Epic doesn't have to cost money. When I was trying for epic, I would track the golems ToD and try to inspire my guild to raid fear if they were in window. This worked.

b) Epic is the fastest way to level past JBB effective level range. Pick a zone with melee mobs. Root rot 4 at a time with 0 downtime. Velks? Sure. Permafrost. Yeah! Howling Stones, you bet! If you like levelling more slowly, WL Geos? I guess.

c) I'd rather be 60 without Torpor and Epic than be 55 with enough money for Torpor and no epic. Grinding exp is the most monotonous, boring part of the game. Earning plat is fun. Make the boring part simple, and then figure out the fun part later. But I suppose that's just me.

Not everybody gets Epic before 60. Assuming everybody will get Epic before 60 just because you did is silly.

You can level quickly with JBB in a number of great zones, including PoM Rat Maze. I did it just fine, so your idea that it's bad is wrong.

There is no reason why you can't give people advice for alternative leveling strategies. If you only have 60k in the bank, buy JBB and resell it for Torpor at 60. Having Torpor at 60 will allow you to farm faster than Epic at 60 with no Torpor. If you happen to be in a guild and get Epic while doing raiding on the side, great! You still have money for Torpor.

Earning plat with Torpor is more fun than grinding guards with Epic.

[Toxigen]

I'd rather have epic first. Most shaman have it well before 60.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

I'd rather have epic first. Most shaman have it well before 60.

Most people would prefer to have Epic before 60. I leveled to 60 with JBB because Epic was too expensive for me to buy, and my guild was getting bad luck on Tear drops. Sometimes you need to compromise.

Having Epic at 60 doesn't allow you to kill anything new. If you level to 60 faster, and then you have to farm 40k by killing guards because you don't have Torpor, you didn't really save yourself any grinding.

If you have Torpor at 60 and no Epic, you can farm all sorts of camps like Fungi King to get the money needed to buy Epic.

[Crede]

I am not sure why you think 20 points of starting stats into STR is related to a mana free clickie nuke on a class that basically stops meleeing once they get JBB. Please stop trying to spout nonsense because you couldn't prove your point about starting stats in a different thread. I have video evidence of using JBB at 60. You have nonsensical commentary.


It’s related, and it’s quite simple why, let me make sure you understand this.

You claim your monk does just fine with 150 str, being content with your dps. Yet you sit here and say a shaman should still have jbb to mix in a few clicks at 60 when you can’t canni. So you obviously value incremental dps gains(a few jbb clicks here and there on an Ionat fight is extremely minimal), yet you seem to discredit the value of a 20 str dps increase.

So In one thread to say “to hell with small dps gains” and in another thread you say “yea you should take advantage of small dps gains”. You can’t keep your facts straight, so it’s important for me to defend the truth.

I hope you can see the hypocrisy in this, but if not, as long as others can I’m ok with that.

[Toxigen]

It’s related, and it’s quite simple why, let me make sure you understand this.

You claim your monk does just fine with 150 str, being content with your dps. Yet you sit here and say a shaman should still have jbb to mix in a few clicks at 60 when you can’t canni. So you obviously value incremental dps gains(a few jbb clicks here and there on an Ionat fight is extremely minimal), yet you seem to discredit the value of a 20 str dps increase.

So In one thread to say “to hell with small dps gains” and in another thread you say “yea you should take advantage of small dps gains”. You can’t keep your facts straight, so it’s important for me to defend the truth.

I hope you can see the hypocrisy in this, but if not, as long as others can I’m ok with that.

+1

Crede droppin truth bombs, bigly.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

It’s related, and it’s quite simple why, let me make sure you understand this.

You claim your monk does just fine with 150 str, being content with your dps. Yet you sit here and say a shaman should still have jbb to mix in a few clicks at 60 when you can’t canni. So you obviously value incremental dps gains(a few jbb clicks here and there on an Ionat fight is extremely minimal), yet you seem to discredit the value of a 20 str dps increase.

So In one thread to say “to hell with small dps gains” and in another thread you say “yea you should take advantage of small dps gains”. You can’t keep your facts straight, so it’s important for me to defend the truth.

I hope you can see the hypocrisy in this, but if not, as long as others can I’m ok with that.

It's clear you haven't been reading what I have been saying, and are ignoring all context in a poor attempt at a gotcha. You should stop trying to gotcha people, and start trying to read posts correctly. You aren't good at this whole gotcha thing, because you don't understand the argument in the first place.

If we are talking about a melee character during the leveling process, a 5% DPS boost from 20 STR in starting stats on a lower level character with 20 DPS is a 1 DPS increase. Even at lower levels, you are probably not gaining more kills per hour with that kind of an increase. Kills per hour is what matters when leveling.

If we are talking about a level 60 melee character, they are gaining 0 DPS from the 20 STR in starting stats due to being capped at 255 STR. It is very easy to hit 255 STR at level 60.

A Shaman who is leveling can get 20-30 DPS with JBB spam, which is a much larger bonus than 0-3 DPS. You are going to see more kills per hour with that. Trying to equate 0-3 DPS with 20-30 DPS is silly.

A level 60 Shaman is generally not aiming for more kills per hour, because a lot of tough mobs that you want to solo have a 30+ minute respawn timer anyway. If I kill Ionat in 18 minutes instead of 20 minutes, I still have to wait 8 hours for another respawn. There aren't enough soloable 6+ Dragons in the pit to net me more kills per hour by saving 2 minutes per kill. If I kill a 4+ Dragon in 10 minutes instead of 12 minutes, I would need to kill 30 4+ Dragons in a row without breaks to net an extra spawn since they have 1 hour respawn timers.

JBB allows you to kill the mob a bit faster, which equates to a lower risk of dying. A level 60 melee character is not killing mobs any faster at 275 STR compared to 255 STR. They are not decreasing their risk of dying at all.

It is trivial to rebut your nonsense. Please stop trying to confuse others simply because you are confused.

[Penish]

think the doctors call this psychosis, Silky

[Ripqozko]

Another DSM thread , here we go again

[Snaggles]

I've already shown my Ionat fight https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oPxeOVuX0G8 . I was averaging 4 Cannibalizes per Torpor on a marathon fight against a hard mob. That is about 20 seconds every minute. You can use your imagination to fill in the other 40 seconds.

You can also look at https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=umuVBewCNgY - I did 5000 damage to the Cliff Golem with just JBB, which is 1/6th of it's life.
.

Using our “imagination” and watching YouTube instead of looking at math is how we have come to live in a post-fact society. It’s also we get to 50 page threads that shouldn’t go past page 5.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Using our “imagination” and watching YouTube instead of looking at math is how we have come to live in a post-fact society. It’s also we get to 50 page threads that shouldn’t go past page 5.

In game videos are better proof than what you are offering, which is nothing so far. You can look at casting gaps in the video to figure out when you can cast JBB. I also literally posted a video with heavy JBB usage.

You are the one posting nonsense. That is how we came to a post truth society. You think snarky posts help for some strange reason. It just muddies the truth.

[Kawhi]

This whole thread is just about people with different death risk tolerances, right?

Like if you want to give yourself the best chances of dropping a rare mob with a guaranteed drop, you might want to make sure your health stays above X% at all times and it might make sense to JBB more.

If you're farming a common mob with a rare drop, then you probably want to churn through them faster and so you're going to dot and canni more.

Either option is fine depending on what risk/reward you are going for.

What am I missing?

[Penish]

Using our “imagination” and watching YouTube instead of looking at math is how we have come to live in a post-fact society. It’s also we get to 50 page threads that shouldn’t go past page 5.

lol

[Penish]

In game videos are better proof than what you are offering, which is nothing so far. You can look at casting gaps in the video to figure out when you can cast JBB. I also literally posted a video with heavy JBB usage.

You are the one posting nonsense. That is how we came to a post truth society. You think snarky posts help for some strange reason. It just muddies the truth.

GAPS IN CASTING

this guy is fucking oblivious, lol

[DeathsSilkyMist]

This whole thread is just about people with different death risk tolerances, right?

Like if you want to give yourself the best chances of dropping a rare mob with a guaranteed drop, you might want to make sure your health stays above X% at all times and it might make sense to JBB more.

If you're farming a common mob with a rare drop, then you probably want to churn through them faster and so you're going to dot and canni more.

Either option is fine depending on what risk/reward you are going for.

What am I missing?

You are correct. Nice summary. Sadly a lot of posters here are trolls, and simply cannot communicate like normal people. They will bloat threads for no reason.

[zelld52]

What? No. It's the opposite. You don't want to be stuck in an 8s cast when you're trying to stay alive lol

[Snaggles]

In game videos are better proof than what you are offering, which is nothing so far. You can look at casting gaps in the video to figure out when you can cast JBB. I also literally posted a video with heavy JBB usage.

You are the one posting nonsense. That is how we came to a post truth society. You think snarky posts help for some strange reason. It just muddies the truth.

I asked for a log of your fight and you said "use your imagination". Ok Tinker Bell.

What? No. It's the opposite. You don't want to be stuck in an 8s cast when you're trying to stay alive lol

Don't worry, he has FSI.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

I asked for a log of your fight and you said "use your imagination". Ok Tinker Bell.


I provided multiple videos for you. You can take a look at them and maybe try to learn something instead of being snarky. The videos show the same exact thing the logs do and more. You can see my HP, Mana and what was happening.

What? No. It's the opposite. You don't want to be stuck in an 8s cast when you're trying to stay alive lol

You just need to play your Shaman some more and not assume you know everything about how the class works.

[zelld52]

You just need to play your Shaman some more and not assume you know everything about how the class works.

I love shaman so much I have a level 30 shaman of each race. Two barbarians, one male and one female.

You also were saying not to bind wound or something in another post. You crazy man

[DeathsSilkyMist]

I love shaman so much I have a level 30 shaman of each race. Two barbarians, one male and one female.

You also were saying not to bind wound or something in another post. You crazy man

I am glad you love the class! You should experiment with JBB then, so you can figure out when it is useful. It sounds like you haven't used the item enough, perhaps due to playing a lot of lower level Shamans. Assuming a mana free Nuke is useless on a class that needs more spell slots is a strange idea.

I am not sure what post you are referring to about Bind Wound. You might be thinking of someone else. It's a good skill to use! Shamans can wield https://wiki.project1999.com/Embalmers_Skinning_Knife , so you'll certainly get utility out of the skill. You won't really use it once you hit 60 and get Torpor, but Bind Wound is good when leveling.

[Snaggles]

This whole thread is just about people with different death risk tolerances, right?

Like if you want to give yourself the best chances of dropping a rare mob with a guaranteed drop, you might want to make sure your health stays above X% at all times and it might make sense to JBB more.

If you're farming a common mob with a rare drop, then you probably want to churn through them faster and so you're going to dot and canni more.

Either option is fine depending on what risk/reward you are going for.

What am I missing?

It's not kill speed, it's being able to do other stuff while your dps is on a timer rather than a recycling click. Also, every time you stop clicking the bracer, your dps drops. Even one torp and two canni's then click again it's not a 8 second click it's a 19 second click (or 14dps). For sake of discussion though, the opportunity cost of a JBB click is almost 3x canni4's with a GCD click.

Bane is a 5 second cast, it does 1648 damage in 42 seconds, it's 39dps and is one click. For a class that survives mainly by canni/torp dancing and balancing hps in with hps out and maintaining mana the idea of stopping making health or mana to lock yourself into a bracer-click dance is the anthesis of efficiency. And again, if you arent clicking every 8 seconds it's not 33 dps.

In a perfect world, I get it, using mana to do dps when you can just save it to heal isnt ideal. You need to debuff though so that's mana. And even 200mana for Torp will slowly drain your blue bar. What works with a monk-shaman-duo doesn't work properly when you're getting hit and the DD is breaking root.


I provided multiple videos for you. You can take a look at them and maybe try to learn something instead of being snarky. The videos show the same exact thing the logs do and more. You can see my HP, Mana and what was happening.


No, what a log shows is a second-by-second account of your casts, spell effects, and spells wearing off. You know this, but you dont want to post it knowing people would tear it apart.

Assuming anyone would take the time to care after page 30 when apathy has become petrified.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

No, what a log shows is a second-by-second account of your casts, spell effects, and spells wearing off. You know this, but you dont want to post it knowing people would tear it apart.

Assuming anyone would take the time to care after page 30 when apathy has become petrified.

The sad thing is if you had watched the video, you would know the logs are posted in the video description. If you can't even bother to watch the video, you probably aren't going to be able to parse the logs in a meaningful way. Hopefully I am wrong, and you actually post something useful for once.

[Snaggles]

The sad thing is if you had watched the video, you would know the logs are posted in the video description. If you can't even bother to watch the video, you probably aren't going to be able to parse the logs in a meaningful way. Hopefully I am wrong, and you actually post something useful for once.

You literally just posted this:

I am not sure what post you are referring to about Bind Wound. You might be thinking of someone else. It's a good skill to use! Shamans can wield https://wiki.project1999.com/Embalmers_Skinning_Knife , so you'll certainly get utility out of the skill. You won't really use it once you hit 60 and get Torpor, but Bind Wound is good when leveling.

Who would canni-dance when they could melee for bandages, bind wound, and inefficiently canni1 away those hps? Brilliant, please put that in your guide.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

You literally just posted this:
Who would canni-dance when they could melee for bandages, bind wound, and inefficiently canni1 away those hps? Brilliant, please put that in your guide.

Before you get Torpor you won't be able to cannibalize as often, due to running out of HP. Not really sure why that is a hard concept. If your Mana is at a good level but your HP is low, you can Bind Wound instead of using healing spells to save mana. Some players also do not have a Fungi Tunic, Ceremonial Iksar Chestplate, Fungi Staff, etc. Not all players are Trolls/Iksars.

I always advise people to canni dance. If you are canni dancing as a level 40 Ogre, you are getting 3 extra HP per tick. That is certainly better than nothing, which is why you should canni dance. However, Bind Wound will get your more HP if you need to heal faster and don't want to use your mana on healing spells.

[Penish]

as fun as this has been the dudes lost the ability to learn or absorb new information over his own thoughts

he's truly psychotic, like a real one

gl elf pals, lol

[Duik]

He'll be back...

[Troxx]

It’s related, and it’s quite simple why, let me make sure you understand this.

You claim your monk does just fine with 150 str, being content with your dps. Yet you sit here and say a shaman should still have jbb to mix in a few clicks at 60 when you can’t canni. So you obviously value incremental dps gains(a few jbb clicks here and there on an Ionat fight is extremely minimal), yet you seem to discredit the value of a 20 str dps increase.

So In one thread to say “to hell with small dps gains” and in another thread you say “yea you should take advantage of small dps gains”. You can’t keep your facts straight, so it’s important for me to defend the truth.

I hope you can see the hypocrisy in this, but if not, as long as others can I’m ok with that.

[Troxx]

Let’s do some math!

In 8 seconds you could
-click JBB once for 263 dmg
OR
-cast torpor and have 2 seconds left over
OR
-cast canni 4 2-3x

In 32 seconds you could …

Click JBB 4x (1052 damage)
OR

-cast torpor once (1200-1500 heal) subtract 200 mana
AND
-cast canni4 8x (656 mana for 1184hp) - net positive 455 mana and 16-315 health
AND
-cast bane, pox or Ebolt once with mana left over

Dmg per mana with those spells range 3.88-4.86 damage per mana yielding 1789-2216dmg for the surplus mana you generated.

That’s why I sold the JBB. Between managing debuffs and frankly having better returns on time invested by casting actual spells … there are much better uses of your time as a shaman than clicking your JBB at level

Still waiting on a response.

Every click of JBB is 8 seconds lost that could be more productively used elsewhere. As for what to do when you have unspent time on your most important tasks (keeping it slowed/debuffed, refreshing dots, healing yourself, and casting canni) … click your epic! When fighting big ass nasty mobs, those other priorities are so high that I often find my epic dot will have worn off many ticks before I have a spare moment to refresh.

JBB really is such a minor contribution that it doesn’t really fit well into the crap that needs to get done with finite time to get it done in.

The cool thing about the shaman class is that they are so incredibly overpowered that you can be successful even using the JBB or otherwise playing inefficiently.

DSM is the poster child for this phenomenon apparently.

[Toxigen]

Minor increase in DPS with JBB

vs. 150 STR monks and casual non-twink rogues starting STA over STR

pick one

[Jimjam]

Minor increase in DPS with JBB

vs. 150 STR monks and casual non-twink rogues starting STA over STR

pick one

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=umuVBewCNgY In this video I did 5000 damage with JBB, which is 1/6 of a Cliff Golem's life.

Silk did already address this, citing a ~17% improvement in DPS (assuming no opportunity cost), which is three or four times that as the rough estimate we produced for +20 Str on a melee.

That said, I don’t think these golems really care about kill speed.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Still waiting on a response.

Every click of JBB is 8 seconds lost that could be more productively used elsewhere. As for what to do when you have unspent time on your most important tasks (keeping it slowed/debuffed, refreshing dots, healing yourself, and casting canni) … click your epic! When fighting big ass nasty mobs, those other priorities are so high that I often find my epic dot will have worn off many ticks before I have a spare moment to refresh.

JBB really is such a minor contribution that it doesn’t really fit well into the crap that needs to get done with finite time to get it done in.

The cool thing about the shaman class is that they are so incredibly overpowered that you can be successful even using the JBB or otherwise playing inefficiently.

DSM is the poster child for this phenomenon apparently.

There's no response needed. I've addressed these points and your math post points multiple times. You need to read the thread.

If you are unable to re-apply your Epic buff every time it wears off on a tough mob, that simply shows you aren't very efficient with your spell usage. That is an issue with your playstyle, not an issue with JBB.

Silk did already address this, citing a ~17% improvement in DPS (assuming no opportunity cost), which is three or four times that as the rough estimate we produced for +20 Str on a melee.


Correct.

[Troxx]

If you are unable to re-apply your Epic buff every time it wears off on a tough mob, that simply shows you aren't very efficient with your spell usage.

In order of importance:

1. Stay alive
2. Maintain debuffs (see above)
3. Apply damage

Failure at 1 makes the rest irrelevant. Failure at 2 increases the likelihood of failure at 1. Any efforts made at 3 imply you are winning at 1 and 2.

When it comes to the application of damage, Bane is >36 dps for a single 5 second cast. EB is 26.6 dps for a single 6.1 second cast. Pox is 19.33dps for a 5 second cast. Epic is a back loaded (most of the damage comes in the last third of its duration) 15.83 dps for a 9 second cast.

So yeah I don’t sweat it if I lose a couple of ticks of mana-free epic dot between refreshes because it does have the least returns on time investment.

Then again, maybe I don’t sweat it because I have plenty of mana because I’m not wasting my time clicking an 8 sec JBB?

Food for thought.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

In order of importance:

1. Stay alive
2. Maintain debuffs (see above)
3. Apply damage

Failure at 1 makes the rest irrelevant. Failure at 2 increases the likelihood of failure at 1. Any efforts made at 3 imply you are winning at 1 and 2.

When it comes to the application of damage, Bane is >36 dps for a single 5 second cast. EB is 26.6 dps for a single 6.1 second cast. Pox is 19.33dps for a 5 second cast. Epic is a back loaded (most of the damage comes in the last third of its duration) 15.83 dps for a 9 second cast.

So yeah I don’t sweat it if I lose a couple of ticks of mana-free epic dot between refreshes because it does have the least returns on time investment.

Then again, maybe I don’t sweat it because I have plenty of mana because I’m not wasting my time clicking an 8 sec JBB?

Food for thought.

I don't sweat it either. You simply don't have a good enough rotation, so you can't fit as much in. Improve that and you might see some JBB usage! You can do Epic, JBB, survival, debuffs and damage.

[unsunghero]

I used to think enc biggest nuke at 650ish dmg was big, until I saw Druids last fire nuke does 1k. Now enchanter nuke feels tiny. Haven’t even looked up wizard’s or mage’s biggest. Already have enough nuke size envy

Whatever JBB does is fooking tiny. Even enchanter’s 650dmg nuke is like a tiny tiny sliver of level 50+ mob’s heath. I’ve had to do like 3 of them to take a 50+ mob from 15% health to dead

[Evia]

the benefit of the jbb isnt how much dmg it does, its that its mana free.
i see what both sides of the coin are saying about the jbb
but as a shaman myself I will never sell mine. i tried doing that once to fund my epic and i just missed having it in a pinch or to just speed burn something or kill lower lvl mobs when farming. I ended up re-buying it and figuring out how to mq the childs tear and still keep it.

its not the best item in the world, and it does have its issues, but a free 283DD is a free 283DD. not too many classes (if any?) can boast that.

[Balladin]

the benefit of the jbb isnt how much dmg it does, its that its mana free.
i see what both sides of the coin are saying about the jbb
but as a shaman myself I will never sell mine. i tried doing that once to fund my epic and i just missed having it in a pinch or to just speed burn something or kill lower lvl mobs when farming. I ended up re-buying it and figuring out how to mq the childs tear and still keep it.

its not the best item in the world, and it does have its issues, but a free 283DD is a free 283DD. not too many classes (if any?) can boast that.

Yeah I know that feeling. You only realize how good it is when you don't have it.

So back to the question: is it really that good? Yes! for 15k-20k it definitely is.
IMO:
Epic>JBB>Pox>Bane

If you can get an Epic,don't bother with a jbb. But remember the Epic spear cost like 100k (if got it ezpz from your guild be appreciative of that ok...ok).
I used to think Bane and pox was better but in practice those spells are really mana-expensive. I'm telling you; recovering your mana (canni-torp) after 4 resist of bane and pox from a maloed mob is a real PIA (you're spell will fizzle alot). So i end up just letting the pet do the dmg, spamming jbb and keep all my mana to re-slow and torp.

But maybe I'm just bad at the doing the shaman stuff.

[Snaggles]

the benefit of the jbb isnt how much dmg it does, it’s that it’s mana free.

It’s “free” sub 60 but with Torp it’s an opportunity cost. There are other things someone can do with that time. Like make more mana while waiting for dots and torp to run its course.

What people are failing to grasp is that time is a finite resource. Player clicks are often less than robotically perfect. Even if you could script the perfect rotation, which you can’t and it’s not legal anyways, I can’t imagine how you could fit in a JBB with efficiency. Simply look at Bane…it does 6x the damage and is a 3 second quicker cast. Torp heals for approximately 5x the DD of a JBB and is also a second quicker. This is math, not creative writing class…

If someone here can manipulate time and space I hope they are finding something better to do with that super power than sneaking in a 268dd click on an elf sim.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

It’s “free” sub 60 but with Torp it’s an opportunity cost. There are other things someone can do with that time. Like make more mana while waiting for dots and torp to run its course.

What people are failing to grasp is that time is a finite resource. Player clicks are often less than robotically perfect. Even if you could script the perfect rotation, which you can’t and it’s not legal anyways, I can’t imagine how you could fit in a JBB with efficiency. Simply look at Bane…it does 6x the damage and is a 3 second quicker cast. Torp heals for approximately 5x the DD of a JBB and is also a second quicker. This is math, not creative writing class…

If someone here can manipulate time and space I hope they are finding something better to do with that super power than sneaking in a 268dd click on an elf sim.

The concept people are failing to grasp is HP and Mana
are finite. You are assuming you always have the HP/Mana to cannibalize or DoT.

When fighting hard mobs this isn't always the case. You can get damage spiked and then have to wait 3 Torpor ticks to get back to safe levels. If all your DoTs and debuffs are applied, you have nothing to do since you cannot cannibalize. You can JBB in that time with no opportunity cost.

JBB is also not very high on hate generation. In my cliff golem video https://youtu.be/umuVBewCNgY?feature=shared JBB was how I was able to keep my pet on the top of the hate list. If I was spamming Bane/Pox, I would need to face tank the cliff golem. With the changes to poison/disease hate generation this may not be as big of an issue, but this is another use case if you want to have your pet tank.

JBB is also useful at 60 for clearing trash mobs.

There are plenty of uses for it. Please stop telling people JBB isn't good at 60. You simply haven't played a Shaman enough.

I also noticed you haven't done anything with those Ionat logs.

[Snaggles]

Edit: where are the logs? This another example of your gaslighting or did you actually post them?

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Edit: where are the logs? This another example of your gaslighting or did you actually post them?

I don't gaslight people. Yet another silly lie. They've been in the Ionat video description, and I even told you in an earlier reply!

You aren't reading other peoples posts, or watching their videos which show how the game works.

You should really stop making assumptions about people and what they are saying, and actually start reading/watching what they are showing you.

[Snaggles]

I don't gaslight people. Yet another silly lie. They've been in the Ionat video, and I even told you in an earlier reply!

A YouTube video isn’t a log file. Haha.

Just paste it here, or a link to it. Or don’t. IDGAF anymore.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

A YouTube video isn’t a log file. Haha.

Just paste it here, or a link to it. Or don’t. IDGAF anymore.

Sigh. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oPxeOVuX0G8 - Check the video description you silly person. It has a link to the log file. Again, you aren't reading, you aren't watching. Please learn to pay attention and stop making assumptions.

I posted this earlier directly replying to you, which you clearly didn't read:

https://www.project1999.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3646577&postcount=223

The sad thing is if you had watched the video, you would know the logs are posted in the video description. If you can't even bother to watch the video, you probably aren't going to be able to parse the logs in a meaningful way. Hopefully I am wrong, and you actually post something useful for once.

[Snaggles]

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1cvrp2R8Meq6CqoOc4ZoJjQlqGEiF_xC0/view

Here.

I’m on my phone but scrubbing through 7 mins in when did you apply Malosini? Also when did you bane? I’ll look on my PC later when I’m not using a 2” screen.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1cvrp2R8Meq6CqoOc4ZoJjQlqGEiF_xC0/view

Here.

I’m on my phone but scrubbing through 7 mins in when did you apply Malosini? Also when did you bane? I’ll look on my PC later when I’m not using a 2” screen.

You can check the video since you are on your phone. I am not going to do all your work for you. I don't always use Bane on these harder fights because it uses a lot more mana in a shorter period of time. It's simply riskier to use because damage spikes can put you in an awkward position. In addition to that, you need to cast Bane more than Pox, which means you have more chances at being resisted or fizzle. I use my Pet in place of Bane, since it is mana free.

[Snaggles]

You can check the video since you are on your phone. I am not going to do all your work for you. I don't use Bane on these harder fights because it uses a lot more mana in a shorter period of time. In addition to that, you need to cast Bane more than Pox, which means you have more chances at being resisted. I use my Pet in place of Bane, since it is mana free.

Ok, so…

You don’t use Bane of Nife, your fastest killing spell.
You don’t Malosini after Malo to lower resist rate on your primary methods of dps (JBB and Epic) or reduce chance of a reslow resist. Also Bane but we have gone over that.
You use Pox for its mana efficiency.

Hmm, nice.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Ok, so…

You don’t use Bane of Nife, your fastest killing spell.
You don’t Malosini after Malo to lower resist rate on your primary methods of dps (JBB and Epic) or reduce chance of a reslow resist. Also Bane but we have gone over that.
You use Pox for its mana efficiency.

Hmm, nice.

I don't use Malosini because I haven't noticed any improvements with Malosini over Malo on WW Dragons. When you play Shaman enough, you learn when you need Malosini and when you don't. It's not worth the time or mana on these fights. I do use Malosini on Cliff Golems, because they are higher level and have higher resists.

[Snaggles]

I don't use Malosini because I haven't noticed any improvements with Malosini over Malo on WW Dragons. When you play Shaman enough, you learn when you need Malosini and when you don't. It's not worth the time or mana on these fights. I do use Malosini on Cliff Golems, because they are higher level and have higher resists.

[Wed Dec 22 10:41:08 2021] You begin casting Malo.
[Wed Dec 22 10:41:10 2021] Ionat was tormented.
…
[Wed Dec 22 10:41:55 2021] Your target resisted the Curse of the Spirits spell.

Good point. It’s pointless to debuff another 15MR. Why not Tash stick since you are already swinging your dumb spear? Or Scourge mallet since you’re using disease debuffs.

Also when do you replace Insidious Decay with Insidious Malady??

[DeathsSilkyMist]

[Wed Dec 22 10:41:08 2021] You begin casting Malo.
[Wed Dec 22 10:41:10 2021] Ionat was tormented.
…
[Wed Dec 22 10:41:55 2021] Your target resisted the Curse of the Spirits spell.

Good point. It’s pointless to debuff another 15MR. Why not Tash stick since you are already swinging your dumb spear? Or Scourge mallet since you’re using disease debuffs.

Also when do you replace Insidious Decay with Insidious Malady??

Nice strawman. You should just quit posting for now. Your rage posting is not helping anybody. It is clear you are only here to try and critisize, instead of trying to learn something.

I didn't say resists don't occur. I said I haven't seen a significant reduction in resist rates. Nor did I say Malosini is never useful. I use it on other fights.

Applying Malo and then Malosini, with a risk of Malosini being resisted is a cost benefit analysis based on how often a specific mob is resisting spells with Malo vs. Malosini.

[Snaggles]

Strawman and rage posting? Ok.

I’ve learned killing stuff with slower working dots and less debuffs is elite gaming. Thanks.