Earthcaller vs Swarmcaller

[sogundordor]

Well we all rangers know SEoC is selling for 200k nowadays, we have chance to pay 200000pp to MQ with a farmer who can farm PoH all day but we cannot, or we can buy another caller: the SWARMCALLER instead of Earthcaller:confused::confused:

For example a Lv60 ranger with max skill and 255str, data from jklein.me/eqcalc:
DPS of Swarmcaller with cof(36% haste): 56.988
Proc: Tagar's Insects
Decrease Attack Speed by 34% (L29) to 50% (L60)
Increase Disease Counter by 9

DPS of Earthcaller with Swiftwind(40% haste, didn't count +30atk):56.500
Proc:Earthcall
Decrease Attack Speed by 20% (L1) to 50% (L60)
Decrease Hitpoints by 20 per tick

The question is these two wepaon Dmg output is close, and with the same % of slow...
Is it Earthcaller will have higher proc rate??
and do we have any example of mob can only slowed by earthcaller but swarmcaller?

the difference between them is 200k to 2k, and also extremely good looking:cool:

[Jimjam]

I don't have recent experience of using a swarmcaller, but when I did use one it had nothing on twin epics. There have been changes to mechanics since then, but I have a suspicion the dps calculator you used may not be representative for many situations in which these weapons would be typically used.

[sogundordor]

it’s just a rough comparison, twin epic has much better stat and swarmcaller has none
we usually swap to better weapon after slow procs i think
Mr. Jimjam do you remember any special mob that you can slow with epic?

[Jimjam]

Iirc they are both magic based slows with no resist mod so work equally well in that regard.

If you have a spare CoF and could provide a bit of healing I could borrow I’d happily do some quick DPS tests on some 50s xp mobs, cliff golems, gwurms, ww dragons and the like to get a real feel of the difference. I’m fairly confident I have a swarmcaller squirreled away somewhere.

If you don’t have a cof we can always just use whatever paltry haste I do have to estimate the difference.

[sogundordor]

Nice!!!!
Wondering if swarmcaller can slow those 50s mobs, i guess earthcaller can do that
I have a cof and swarmcaller, but i can only do tiny tiny little bit of heal (rangers super greater healing), need to find a healer friend ..

[Tethler]

I have a really hard time believing that swarmcaller with a cof is the same dps as dual epics. Whether it's worth 200k or not, that depends on how deep your pockets are.

[Ripqozko]

I have a really hard time believing that swarmcaller with a cof is the same dps as dual epics. Whether it's worth 200k or not, that depends on how deep your pockets are.

Plus the loss of attack, 2h is worth it tho if you can get good enough 2h. i use cek sword mostly vs my kriezen flame.

[sogundordor]

Do you think epic has higher proc rate?
i dunno how how exactly proc rate works, and no idea how to a statistics with it
base on the "feeling" of daily and soloing experience:(soloing dogs in KC and geonids in WL, usually 8 procs which 5-6 times call of fire)
bad: OT hammer
normal: frostbringer/swarmcaller
good: call of fire

I think swarmcaller is the normal tier, do you think epic procs more?
or just compare with call of fire, are they rpocs the same?

[sogundordor]

Plus the loss of attack, 2h is worth it tho if you can get good enough 2h. i use cek sword mostly vs my kriezen flame.

after swarmcaller procs i'll swap to Meljeldin too, 2h swap to 2h is much faster than swap to dual wield

[Ripqozko]

after swarmcaller procs i'll swap to Meljeldin too, 2h swap to 2h is much faster than swap to dual wield

for general exping its not really worth the effort, the loss of dps trying to proc vs the raw dps. i rarely used earthcaller for that reason, shit always procc'd at 10% mob left and i coulda killed it already. its good niche weapon when you need slows in a team and theres no other available, bout it. id still use it over swarmcaller tho.

[Toxigen]

Non raiding players will get a lot more bang for their buck MQing Swiftwind, buying a Swiftblade of Zek for your mainhand, and keeping a Swarmcaller in inventory for those rare situations (or solo).

Plus, you can move the SBoZ to a future alt or sell it. Dumping 200k for a Shattered Emerald of Corruption should only be done by those with plenty of cash and an extreme desire to "complete" their ranger.

Swarmcaller is a great tool to have and it costs < 1% of Earthcaller for when you really need the slow.

[Azure Ogre]

The DPS comparison here is way off, no way a swarmcaller comes close to dual epics in almost all scenarios except maybe killing very low green mobs. Earthcaller from my experience has a very high proc chance, I’ve soloed from 50-52 so far with it and I don’t think there’s been one time it didn’t proc during a fight, usually happening multiple times.

[Pint]

Proc modifiers were removed from all wpns on p99, any sense that one is proccing more consistently then the other is just misunderstanding rng

[sogundordor]

Proc modifiers were removed from all wpns on p99, any sense that one is proccing more consistently then the other is just misunderstanding rng

interesting!!! actually we can’t prove OT hammer can proc in a row
just for reference is there a patch note or something like that we can read more about this

[Pint]

I want to say it was around the time they nerfed invis pulling but I'd have to wait till I'm back home to dig for it. It affected a lot of shit tier weapons like barb spiritist hammer etc iirc

[mcoy]

I want to say it was around the time they nerfed invis pulling but I'd have to wait till I'm back home to dig for it. It affected a lot of shit tier weapons like barb spiritist hammer etc iirc

https://www.project1999.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1154802&postcount=1

-Mcoy

[Pint]

Ty sir, that's the nerf I was referencing. All wpns on 99 have the same proc rate/chance per minute

[sogundordor]

Ty sir, that's the nerf I was referencing. All wpns on 99 have the same proc rate/chance per minute

Is that true for all weapon have the same proc rate?
let me try it out to find some prove;)
from GamPrase i have some logs of Sledge of Smashing with 98dex,
1) total melee time 8493s with 179procs, average seconds between procs=47.4
2) total melee time 3204s with 67procs, average seconds between procs=47.8
seems procs rate of a weapon is quite stable

i'll try to get some log of swarmcaller and Kreizenn's Flame with 140dex to compare
it may take some time...

[Jimjam]

What mob are you using for logging parses? The super noob turtle in velious? Where is it found?

[Pint]

Is that true for all weapon have the same proc rate?

Yea

[sogundordor]

What mob are you using for logging parses? The super noob turtle in velious? Where is it found?

it’s not a single mob, it’s from 2 days of tar goos hunting in WL without changing weapon and basically not cast between fight
if using a single mob, the longest fight is focuser in PoG, but i usually buff during fight and got more dex than usual, i have only 2 logs that i didn’t change weapon and both are less than 800s

[Stonewallx39]

I haven’t parsed these weapons, but I did some quick back of the napkin math and at level 60 swarmcaller is going to be very close DPS wise to dual epics (assuming you have decent haste).

There may be a factor of high AC mobs and slow vs fast weapons but I’ve parsed T staff vs monk epic+SoS and t-staff outperforms consistently either against raid mobs or kunark blue/green mobs. Swarmcaller is slower so ymmv (but epic fist is faster so idk)

Long story long Earthcaller is min/max fashionquest while Swarmcaller is pretty comparable utility (similar slow and dps) for a fraction of the price.

[Ripqozko]

Slow in most situations isn't really needed less you do kot of sub optimal low man farming, sboz and swift wind is way to go and cheaper. It'll out parse either those.

[Azure Ogre]

T staff is also a 0.97 ratio (with a 120dd) compared to a 0.70 swarmcaller, not even worth comparing those two dps wise because it’s not close. Once you take the main hand bonus damage into account, dual wielding epics with the higher haste and attack should do significantly more dps than a swarmcaller.

[sogundordor]

with log parsing the log its easy to find out proc per min, if dex is the same
according to "Weapon proc" from wiki, assuming its true, i made the following graph:
https://dsm01pap001files.storage.live.com/y4m9tB5vCwlHpLtxnk9dE-k5R3SWlsmu_DVb2_KYErT39y9ix1oVUkPuaDyMKptQewvxAQyH HXtp59wwMyv0o31ZtKqW9wvfxvqQrFHP6UdXsKynLs11QxTp01 FIacpotqtxNCWrwcmpISd6tXvRTmRNbs-OaQ2Hlb9E6KeUdzyGubjSN2MIEQD7QbPVnGuddTo?width=122 0&height=766&cropmode=none
when max 255dex, there should be 2ppm
at 85dex, there is 1ppm
and the graph looks linear, it can assume that there is some kind of "bouns" you got 0.5ppm at 0dex
i'll try to compare my data base on this graph between weapon form different classes(different dex)
direct compare if weapon can use by same class(try to wear same dex)

with my small data pool atm, it seems:
1) all weapon have a higher ppm than the graph
2) some different ppm between weapons

I'll post a report when i get some more log~




about the funny dps comparison, theoretically from jklein.me/eqcalc
wondering if someone can upload some log of epic~
Swarmcaller:
https://dsm01pap001files.storage.live.com/y4mn4tt9aOBMIQut_yVzCsb8Yy0VIPZSUCt1ft52TcUq8IXpcT Hiv8k-uM1QoY7qekOek-Hou5GnhX0Fnpe1UkAHaaKv0nhOTAOYgfagduWRamKZpE8o_kzI Jx5sy2720VgkL79AOQpg4pKZZxctSFWrGt9iH8v6sWq4e8RLht t_2vC0XAGMM5i4COBmKi0FNTx?width=1350&height=948&cropmode=none

Dual Epic:
https://dsm01pap001files.storage.live.com/y4mvv0Q3JL7dEZRmZDbVprA-Src1repOOLwcfQ2Z88txgIW_Q2etLU9KVBjIekKORBM1-YRj62vvAcrbJH4Xl0HnbIk_9DAXiVrtm_EtLa03HW6rUuJxaDB zjFhwZuzQVklOZre00QkEXTsfbp-WNyM--kBA0rVOAmv__ZiGDg2sMp8JuMraY2SNOzWBDY9dYYH?width=1 354&height=948&cropmode=none

[sogundordor]

with log parsing the log its easy to find out proc per min, if dex is the same
according to "Weapon proc" from wiki, assuming its true, i made the following graph:
https://dsm01pap001files.storage.live.com/y4m9tB5vCwlHpLtxnk9dE-k5R3SWlsmu_DVb2_KYErT39y9ix1oVUkPuaDyMKptQewvxAQyH HXtp59wwMyv0o31ZtKqW9wvfxvqQrFHP6UdXsKynLs11QxTp01 FIacpotqtxNCWrwcmpISd6tXvRTmRNbs-OaQ2Hlb9E6KeUdzyGubjSN2MIEQD7QbPVnGuddTo?width=122 0&height=766&cropmode=none
when max 255dex, there should be 2ppm
at 85dex, there is 1ppm
and the graph looks linear, it can assume that there is some kind of "bouns" you got 0.5ppm at 0dex

*(ahh, i feel like a student now~its a linear equation)
https://dsm01pap001files.storage.live.com/y4muaDpm0AYVVfuKL310_nf-8y_9lvEpMFanF5SKgypndh97M2eZYHk6Ae0bbYXP_Y8ckd9Ung 6pRsqJm1psjQgYKr5VR1fxkJxx6tMLP941vYRvcMfzNTXmFoGk 3RIxr_QvUz4dfdk7GxZa4ghVwbV2_OVU0QYDAaGBpOnPT288WS 8U3zsIxzibCFEA6O67dtI?width=640&height=124&cropmode=none

i'll try to compare my data base on this graph between weapon form different classes(different dex)
direct compare if weapon can use by same class(try to wear same dex)

with my small data pool atm, it seems:
1) all weapon have a higher ppm than the graph
2) some different ppm between weapons

I'll post a report when i get some more log~




about the funny dps comparison, theoretically from jklein.me/eqcalc
wondering if someone can upload some log of epic~
Swarmcaller:
https://dsm01pap001files.storage.live.com/y4mn4tt9aOBMIQut_yVzCsb8Yy0VIPZSUCt1ft52TcUq8IXpcT Hiv8k-uM1QoY7qekOek-Hou5GnhX0Fnpe1UkAHaaKv0nhOTAOYgfagduWRamKZpE8o_kzI Jx5sy2720VgkL79AOQpg4pKZZxctSFWrGt9iH8v6sWq4e8RLht t_2vC0XAGMM5i4COBmKi0FNTx?width=1350&height=948&cropmode=none

Dual Epic:
https://dsm01pap001files.storage.live.com/y4mvv0Q3JL7dEZRmZDbVprA-Src1repOOLwcfQ2Z88txgIW_Q2etLU9KVBjIekKORBM1-YRj62vvAcrbJH4Xl0HnbIk_9DAXiVrtm_EtLa03HW6rUuJxaDB zjFhwZuzQVklOZre00QkEXTsfbp-WNyM--kBA0rVOAmv__ZiGDg2sMp8JuMraY2SNOzWBDY9dYYH?width=1 354&height=948&cropmode=none

[Toxigen]

You don't use swarmcaller for DPS. You use it to proc slow (if needed), then you swap to SBoZ / Swiftwind.

[sogundordor]

https://dsm01pap001files.storage.live.com/y4mYg15O9NljV2a01gupS1ocKHV71Ing2baLe90_a0wdYeUrvZ yDpwq0w-WF7Im2Zv5JkXR5il2AMQras-5Juf1Ljmn3ia8CssjaJi11w1wIbQKVEaRjnVWOX_vJyQkPRn2H gdv1eSTyUiRZ3wJBys4LlsyIPKac8K34deVFwRwUH247hCo002 LA14YZhLb1z_s?width=1664&height=182&cropmode=none
heres the log parse of 3 weapon with proc i got, their proc rate are quite close
when i killing different mob with different char/gear, there is some 'feeling' of some weapon proc more, after log parse, there is only a few % of difference which is way smaller than the difference of feeling
although i can't prove "all' weapons have the same proc rate, but here we have weapons from Kunark and Velious era, loot from soloable mob and raid mob, i started to believe there is not big difference between weapon procs rate as i heard before

back to the topic, can anyone with earthcaller pls send me your log?
knowing more about the game is very fun to me hehe

*data collected from raid, maybe interrupted by doing buff or chasing flee, real proc rate should be a little bit higher
**collected from killing tar goos in WL, no cast during fight
***collected from killing coldain, no cast during fight, just not long enough , its better to kill more

[Pint]

I'll try to get you some parses, my ranger has an earthcaller but he is naggy/vox locked

[mattydef]

What doesn't make sense to me is if a 29/41 (bad ratio) 2 hander can out dps double epics at 60, why aren't literally all rangers using 2 handers at 60? A simple 4-5k 32/36 or even a Woodsman Staff should be able to destroy most dual wield options using that formula above if that's the case.

[Ripqozko]

What doesn't make sense to me is if a 29/41 (bad ratio) 2 hander can out dps double epics at 60, why aren't literally all rangers using 2 handers at 60? A simple 4-5k 32/36 or even a Woodsman Staff should be able to destroy most dual wield options using that formula above if that's the case.

Some 2h is worth it, I primarily use 2h with my cek sword cause it out dps Kriezen flame generally.

[mattydef]

I can definitely see a 45/38 being very competitive DPS but that ratio is astronomically better than a 29/41 or even a 31/35.

[Ripqozko]

I can definitely see a 45/38 being very competitive DPS but that ratio is astronomically better than a 29/41 or even a 31/35.

I was more pointing out some of us do walk around with 2h even endgame, ops point is dumb tho I agree there.

[Kirdan]

it's because 14/24 for earthcaller is not a great ratio for a 1h mainhand, swiftwind is still a great offhand, but EC is for slow proc and then swap out to a faster mainhand

[sogundordor]

thanks for the discussion!!

actually its happy to see if earthcaller can outdmg other weapon~ why? cos its OUR epic!! Ranger's Epic!!!
the best way is direct compare by parsing log with killing same mob for a certain time

in real fighting, its good to choose the right weapon,
for a high ac mob, i'll choose fast 1h
solo tons of hp, best ratio, maybe try to slow it at first
bad tank in group, 2h to avoid riposte or enrage
too tough to facetank, try bow rot

example of keep using swarmcaller:
1) farming in droga, slow them all lazy to heal =P
2) small melee group, remember grouped with a epic sk and pally in velk, sk maintank and i keep using swarmcaller, pally said hes no need to heal haha

and i think i'm close to the answer~
1)Is it Earthcaller will have higher proc rate??
proc rate are very close by parsing "3" weapon (self test)
2)and do we have any example of mob can only slowed by earthcaller but swarmcaller?
both magic based slows with no resist mod (same as wiki)
its close but not the end of my study, i'll continue to search more when i have time until someday i have my own EC able to direct compare hehe

[Tethler]

1)Is it Earthcaller will have higher proc rate??
proc rate are very close by parsing "3" weapon (self test)


I'm pretty sure proc rates were normalized a few years ago. All weapons should have the same proc rate over time when wielded in the same hand. (offhand is 50% proc rate compared to mainhand)

[Stonewallx39]

What doesn't make sense to me is if a 29/41 (bad ratio) 2 hander can out dps double epics at 60, why aren't literally all rangers using 2 handers at 60? A simple 4-5k 32/36 or even a Woodsman Staff should be able to destroy most dual wield options using that formula above if that's the case.

Yeah it’s an interesting question. I can say for a monk t staff definitely beats epic/SoS but maybe that has something to do with the power of triple attack? We have a couple rangers with primary weapons like swift blade of zek. I’ll bring along a two hander next time we’re in HoT and parse it out. That should give us a decent sample of high ac and moderate ac mobs

[Cecily]

with log parsing the log its easy to find out proc per min, if dex is the same
according to "Weapon proc" from wiki, assuming its true, i made the following graph:
https://dsm01pap001files.storage.live.com/y4m9tB5vCwlHpLtxnk9dE-k5R3SWlsmu_DVb2_KYErT39y9ix1oVUkPuaDyMKptQewvxAQyH HXtp59wwMyv0o31ZtKqW9wvfxvqQrFHP6UdXsKynLs11QxTp01 FIacpotqtxNCWrwcmpISd6tXvRTmRNbs-OaQ2Hlb9E6KeUdzyGubjSN2MIEQD7QbPVnGuddTo?width=122 0&height=766&cropmode=none
when max 255dex, there should be 2ppm
at 85dex, there is 1ppm
and the graph looks linear, it can assume that there is some kind of "bouns" you got 0.5ppm at 0dex
i'll try to compare my data base on this graph between weapon form different classes(different dex)
direct compare if weapon can use by same class(try to wear same dex)

with my small data pool atm, it seems:
1) all weapon have a higher ppm than the graph
2) some different ppm between weapons

I'll post a report when i get some more log~




about the funny dps comparison, theoretically from jklein.me/eqcalc
wondering if someone can upload some log of epic~
Swarmcaller:
https://dsm01pap001files.storage.live.com/y4mn4tt9aOBMIQut_yVzCsb8Yy0VIPZSUCt1ft52TcUq8IXpcT Hiv8k-uM1QoY7qekOek-Hou5GnhX0Fnpe1UkAHaaKv0nhOTAOYgfagduWRamKZpE8o_kzI Jx5sy2720VgkL79AOQpg4pKZZxctSFWrGt9iH8v6sWq4e8RLht t_2vC0XAGMM5i4COBmKi0FNTx?width=1350&height=948&cropmode=none

Dual Epic:
https://dsm01pap001files.storage.live.com/y4mvv0Q3JL7dEZRmZDbVprA-Src1repOOLwcfQ2Z88txgIW_Q2etLU9KVBjIekKORBM1-YRj62vvAcrbJH4Xl0HnbIk_9DAXiVrtm_EtLa03HW6rUuJxaDB zjFhwZuzQVklOZre00QkEXTsfbp-WNyM--kBA0rVOAmv__ZiGDg2sMp8JuMraY2SNOzWBDY9dYYH?width=1 354&height=948&cropmode=none

I love how calculator completely rips off the the spreadsheet model I created years ago to compare weapons for rangers.

[Stonewallx39]

I had a ranger in plane of hate with me last night. He was level 60 and using Winters Fury (13/23 so slightly worse ratio than epic) and offhand epic I also had him parse the swarmcaller.

Super not scientific but the the swarmcaller parsed between 37-68 dps on a variety of mobs. The two one handers gave results between 44 and 61. I’m not trying to make a definitive point, just wanted to share if you do end up melee’ing for an extended period of time with Swarmcaller waiting for it to proc you won’t lose a ton of dps compared to dual epics.

[sogundordor]

I had a ranger in plane of hate with me last night. He was level 60 and using Winters Fury (13/23 so slightly worse ratio than epic) and offhand epic I also had him parse the swarmcaller.

Super not scientific but the the swarmcaller parsed between 37-68 dps on a variety of mobs. The two one handers gave results between 44 and 61. I’m not trying to make a definitive point, just wanted to share if you do end up melee’ing for an extended period of time with Swarmcaller waiting for it to proc you won’t lose a ton of dps compared to dual epics.

Can he slow those mobs with Swarmcaller in PoH? they are mostly 50+

[Stonewallx39]

Can he slow those mobs with Swarmcaller in PoH? they are mostly 50+

I didn’t ask, we were testing the dps as he was certain dual wielding did more damage. It ended up being pretty close though and suspect a better ratio 2hander would walk away compared to offhand epic and most mainhand weapons below 11/18 ratio.

I would also note these are planes era mobs which have AC / tuning completely different than Velious raid mobs where the faster 1handed weapons might perform better. This is the general consensus but definitely not the case for a monk comparing t-staff to epic mainhand + SoS (yes I know I keep posting that insight but I’ve tested it on several velious raid mobs and that’s all I’ve got).

[Trelaboon]

Well we all rangers know SEoC is selling for 200k nowadays:

Holy cow, is it really? I just returned from a 3 year break. I paid like 50k for mine four years ago.

[Toxigen]

For anyone without the cash / time / etc to get SEOC, just use Swarmcaller when needing slows and rock SBoZ / Swiftwind.

Ballin on a budget.

[Snaggles]

I haven’t parsed a woodsman with capped haste but expect it’s still solid at 60. Probably not far off a SBOZ/Swift. That and a swarmcaller is a nice quick swap for the budget player.

[Toxigen]

Yeah for 90% of players a woodsmans staff and swarmcaller is all you ever really need. Swarmcaller alone opens up lots of small group options that don't involve a shaman or enchanter.

[Encroaching Death]

Yeah for 90% of players a woodsmans staff and swarmcaller is all you ever really need. Swarmcaller alone opens up lots of small group options that don't involve a shaman or enchanter.

Could a Ranger solo with those?

[Crede]

Could a Ranger solo with those?

Yes. You’ll want the swarmcaller to help at the higher levels. Prioritize Fungi/haste/slow in that order.

[Snaggles]

I soloed to 58 with a woodsman, COCW, no fungi. No sky cloak.

You can def melee solo to 60. Root joust a Swarmcaller until it procs then switch to your dps setup. A 2h doesn’t lose as much dps while nuking between swings either. Even Firestrike chained is 65dps alone. Let alone like Call of Flame or Calefaction.

Really best thing is to find a palatable mob and bow rot it. Earthshaker, SCHW’s and fleeting quiver with Tolan arrows is not horridly bad with a 30dmg+ bow. Unless you’re killing Geos.

But just a swarmcaller plus a healer and a dps is fairy efficient. In like the Hole a ranger could easily step in for a tank. Over time the proc is definitely saving mana.