View Full Version : The Good Book
Homesteaded
05-12-2022, 09:47 AM
How many of you have read The Bible front to back?
I'm off school for the summer and have a bunch of free time. Staying off the sauce(8 days so far), getting back in shape and reading The Bible are my goals for the summer.
I consulted a buddy of mine who knows about these things and he gave me a good reading order. Not that far into it but it is quite a different experience when contrasted with reading it and learning about it as a young child.
We have this ancient text that is clearly speaking about how to be good to one another. It's clear that this knowledge is built into us. Anyways, I am curious how many of you have read the Bible front to back.
MrSparkle001
05-12-2022, 09:53 AM
Which Bible? There are a few translations and they do differ in some key ways.
I'm partial to the Douay-Rheims version but it's not the easiest to read, and by that I mean it can be damned hard in places.
robayon
05-12-2022, 10:07 AM
I have read the KJV and some new life version but I have big holes in my memory, especially between 2010 - 2013
Reiwa
05-12-2022, 10:28 AM
https://i.imgur.com/1uRM4uB.jpg
Reiwa
05-12-2022, 10:33 AM
Which Bible? There are a few translations and they do differ in some key ways.
I'm partial to the Douay-Rheims version but it's not the easiest to read, and by that I mean it can be damned hard in places.
google says that's a translation from the latin vulgate.
hope this helps.
MrSparkle001
05-12-2022, 10:35 AM
The bible has some good stories and good life lessons, but there isn't much of God in there. It's a a collection of hymns, letters and stories written in the desert 3000-1700 years ago, and then translated a half a dozen times before it makes it to your modern, english-reading eyes. If you've ever read the subtitles in a film where you also understand the language being spoken, you will have noticed that the translation is often bizarrely wrong. That's because perfect translation is always impossible. Languages are different from one another, and different users of those languages literally think differently from one another as a result. Language shapes the mind. Now remember again, that the bible has been translated multiple times. There's just no point in wasting your time reading modern translations. Find a good bible study, that goes into the original documents and what those original words in their original language mean.
If you're going to just plow through the translated version, I'd suggest that you'd be better off reading a religious text that you more unfamiliar with, such as the Upanishads.
The life lessons are God.
And you are correct about the translations. There are usually subtle differences, but some editions differ quite significantly in order to fit a certain doctrine. These editions are not the KJV or the Catholic NRSV (New Revised Standard Version) but more limited editions used in marginal churches. There are many of them.
Here are examples of the subtle differences between KJV and Douay-Rheims (I do not know which Douay-Rheims version): https://www.kingjamesbibleonline.org/james-1-parallel-kjv-douay_rheims/
I have heard that the original meaning of "Thou shalt not kill" is closer to "Thou shalt not murder" but the translation to "kill" doesn't convey the original meaning properly and leaves it as way too ambiguous. I mean killing an animal for food is killing, killing a plant for food is killing, killing an enemy in war is killing...
I think it's kind of a tough read from front to back, especially in Leviticus. At least to me it was. Most of the old testament is a rough read tbh. I love all of the new testament though and really enjoy reading it and praying to ask God to help me to understand and process it all. Revelations is also very relevant and my favorite to read right now. I'd try and read the book with God and Christ and have them guide you as you explore the Bible. I'd try and ignore other people's "take" or "opinion" on what each passage or chapter means, or is about , because I think reading the Bible and conversing with your creator is a personal endeavor.
If you are ever in a situation where you really need God's guidance, I'd suggest praying to him and then opening the Bible randomly and reading. There have been so many passages that he leads me to that pertain to my current situation and speak directly to my heart.
Good luck reading it all! It's worthwhile! Also be careful with what Bible you purchase. I tried to buy a new one on Amazon and it was in broken English and whole verses were changed in weird ways. Try to get something older imo.
MrSparkle001
05-12-2022, 11:04 AM
google says that's a translation from the latin vulgate.
hope this helps.
It does a pretty good job of it but it's been revised over the years.
I prefer as close to original as possible but there's no way I can read a latin or ancient Greek Bible, and I can barely get through the older Renaissance translations like Douay-Rheims. The language is just so thick. But translating into modern vernacular is flawed too.
Reiwa
05-12-2022, 11:14 AM
Do you not recognize that this is a logical fallacy: call to tradition? The older versions are translations too. They were changed in weird ways too.
Work off the original Hebrew, Aramaic and Greek versions, or just don't waste your time.
I wonder if a Septuagint on the shelf would get a ladyfriend sodden with the mists of spring. 🤔
Do you not recognize that this is a logical fallacy: call to tradition? The older versions are translations too. They were changed in weird ways too.
Work off the original Hebrew, Aramaic and Greek versions, or just don't waste your time.
I agree with you on the deeper point you're making, yes. I guess let me elaborate on what I mean by "changed" in regards to king James versions you'll buy in Amazon today. Where the letter o is its often replaced with 0. Where the letter L is it's often changed to an I and vice versa. This makes it incredibly hard to read as it feels broken and incomplete. Unfortunately most people need a translation to some degree since most can't read Latin and ancient Hebrew.
loramin
05-12-2022, 11:48 AM
I had to read it twice: first for a high school English AP course (it was assigned as reading over the summer too, which made it worse, but I only had to read the Old Testament), and then again for a college literature course (both testaments).
Both times were pretty awful: it's not a good book. However, most Western literature written makes some allusions to the bible, so it is a relevant read if you're studying literary analysis.
loramin
05-12-2022, 11:52 AM
P.S. I also read the Epic of Gilgamesh, The Bodivagita, The Analects of Confucius and (big chunks of) the Koran. None of them were "good books" either, so I'm not just crapping on the bible.
unsunghero
05-12-2022, 12:28 PM
Nice goals man
DeathsSilkyMist
05-12-2022, 12:31 PM
It is kind of silly to say any book/story that has survived 2000+ years is bad.
If you don't like them personally, that is perfectly fine.
Objectively speaking any book/story that has survived 2000+ years is a good book/story, even if it is difficult to understand why that is. Otherwise you wouldn't know the story of Jesus, Gligamesh, etc. People would have stopped caring and forgotten about them hundreds of years ago.
Reiwa
05-12-2022, 12:32 PM
The Bodivagita.
Is that the sequel to the Bhagavad Gita?
Jibartik
05-12-2022, 12:56 PM
Religious study can be insanely interesting, but not if you are taking it as literal truth or divine.
https://youtu.be/cJTf4kXb5dM?t=1127
What’s even funnier though is if you can really enjoy it and you bring it up and then you watch people who have never read it or never studied it just completely freak out.
I do feel a little bad when it’s obvious that someone’s freaking out because their parents shoved that book up their ass their whole life and that’s why they have the baggage, like I sympathize for that.
But I think it’s important that we know that the reason we hate religion is because of that not because of religion, like we think it is.
Religion IS mankind. It’s best to understand it. And to learn from it. You can’t say it doesn’t make life better for people. You can say it hurt when it was shoved up your ass but that was then.
Jibartik
05-12-2022, 01:01 PM
P.S. I also read the Epic of Gilgamesh, The Bodivagita, The Analects of Confucius and (big chunks of) the Koran. None of them were "good books" either, so I'm not just crapping on the bible.
There’s a difference between like good prose and a good stories, like… you should be blown away at those 6000-year-old stories that are actually pretty much the same story that you paid to go see in a Marvel movie.
But for kids today it’s really hard to compete with marvel movies.
I would say what you went through was an example of it being shoved up your ass :o
Gustoo
05-12-2022, 01:08 PM
It does a pretty good job of it but it's been revised over the years.
I prefer as close to original as possible but there's no way I can read a latin or ancient Greek Bible, and I can barely get through the older Renaissance translations like Douay-Rheims. The language is just so thick. But translating into modern vernacular is flawed too.
You’re gunna want NASB 1995 (“updated edition”)
Or the ESV (English standard version) which is quite similar.
CSV is probably the best readability version if you like that
And honestly the NIV is fine despite some minor flaws
And even new King James Version is fine.
But I basically prefer them in the above order.
Id suggest to anyone reading the New Testament front to back before reading about how a Jewish person was supposed to tie their shoes in Leviticus and stuff.
And as always dont read a real book like an idiot 3rd grader or redditor looking for “gotchas” until you have some basic knowledge and context so you won’t sound like a child with your criticisms.
Like saying “eq pvp classes aren’t balanced, so it’s bad!”
When anyone who has played the game knows that class balance has nothing to do with making the game bad.
Id actually get this exact bible. https://www.abebooks.com/servlet/BookDetailsPL?bi=31056838972&cm_sp=snippet-_-srp1-_-tile1&searchurl=ds%3D10%26kn%3Dzondervan%2Bnasb%2Bstudy% 2Bbible%26sortby%3D20 The integrated notes will help you very rapidly see what accepted actual Christian scholars think or how they deal
With challenging verses so if you read something and think “wtf” there is basically the mainline Christian communities opinion on it right there at your fingertips it makes bashing through it really convenient.
Not that the notes are all 100 percent perfect but it’s a great speedy reference, should be taken with a grain of salt.
These kinda bibles also have references integrated and for certain words show you in the center column literal translations of the word which will
help with complex or loaded words as much as the notes will.
unsunghero
05-12-2022, 01:21 PM
I do feel that human’s brains were built to worship something. This is just my personal hunch and not based on any psychology
I’ve noticed that people who claim to be hardcore atheists still sometimes find their own version of something to replace theology
MrSparkle001
05-12-2022, 01:30 PM
I do feel that human’s brains were built to worship something. This is just my personal hunch and not based on any psychology
I’ve noticed that people who claim to be hardcore atheists still sometimes find their own version of something to replace theology
Yes, they believe nothing created everything out of nothing.
https://i.imgur.com/6V9lXzt.jpg
robayon
05-12-2022, 01:33 PM
a perfect encapsulation of everything wrong with modern america doesn't ex-
Jibartik
05-12-2022, 02:11 PM
I do feel that human’s brains were built to worship something.
haha no of course not! There's plenty of secularists in this church...
https://i.imgur.com/N79zl86.png
I bet it comes from silver back ape behavior.... like the alpha pack wolf mammal behavior. Like if you gave those animals imagination, education, or whatever it is that makes us different, then they'd all be hardwired to worship an alpha god too.
It could be just basic animal behavior we're exhibiting, on a scale of an animal that can build rockets and go into space.
Rethalis
05-12-2022, 02:52 PM
I do feel that human’s brains were built to worship something. This is just my personal hunch and not based on any psychology
I’ve noticed that people who claim to be hardcore atheists still sometimes find their own version of something to replace theology
People organize themselves in hierarchical manners. The orthodoxy is an out growth of that. To fit yourself within a hierarchy you have to plead fealty to something.
loramin
05-12-2022, 03:08 PM
Is that the sequel to the Bhagavad Gita?
:o I hadn't had my coffee yet, and it's a hard name to remember
loramin
05-12-2022, 03:15 PM
Objectively speaking any book/story that has survived 2000+ years is a good book/story, even if it is difficult to understand why that is. Otherwise you wouldn't know the story of Jesus, Gligamesh, etc. People would have stopped caring and forgotten about them hundreds of years ago.
That is simply not true. We read the epic of Gilgamesh because it's the earliest known form of literature. It has nothing to do with the quality of the text, and everything to do with that text being preserved while other texts weren't.
In short, if The Epic of Bob had survived from before Gilgamesh, we'd be discussing it instead in literature classes. And it's the same thing with the bible: it's only survived for so long because it's a religious text of the cultural group that happened to win out ... not because it's good literature.
There are countless other texts that are odes to Osiris, or Dionysus, or whatever other god, all from the same time as the bible ... that no one reads today, even though they're just as good from a literary perspective.
Jibartik
05-12-2022, 03:45 PM
It offends me that the children of the world today are comparing the "literary perspective" of a spoken story passed down from 8 thousand years ago. before there was such thing as literiture, or stories and another 6 thousand years before anyone but the 1% of people could write
What a bunch of dipshits this world has become.
DeathsSilkyMist
05-12-2022, 03:50 PM
That is simply not true. We read the epic of Gilgamesh because it's the earliest known form of literature. It has nothing to do with the quality of the text, and everything to do with that text being preserved while other texts weren't.
In short, if The Epic of Bob had survived from before Gilgamesh, we'd be discussing it instead in literature classes. And it's the same thing with the bible: it's only survived for so long because it's a religious text of the cultural group that happened to win out ... not because it's good literature.
There are countless other texts that are odes to Osiris, or Dionysus, or whatever other god, all from the same time as the bible ... that no one reads today, even though they're just as good from a literary perspective.
It's factually true, even if you don't like it. The text survived for a reason. If people didn't like it, they wouldn't have preserved it.
Jibartik
05-12-2022, 03:55 PM
pretty much every literary piece today is inspired from the epic of Gilgamesh, if they are not, they are inspired by one of the 5 mojor stories that were inspired by the epic of gilgamesh.
Its like saying the matrix movie is better than a book, because they used cameras.
Or like everquest is better than lord of the rings because it has interactivity.
Kaveh
05-12-2022, 04:34 PM
Is that the sequel to the Bhagavad Gita?
I lol’d at this dunk
Gustoo
05-12-2022, 04:58 PM
a perfect encapsulation of everything wrong with modern america doesn't ex-
Jib - ya confirmed dipshits
Robayon ima need to buy one of those about red 2.0 so I can retire from
the message boards
Homesteaded
05-12-2022, 05:24 PM
It's factually true, even if you don't like it. The text survived for a reason. If people didn't like it, they wouldn't have preserved it.
It's like Everquest. We're here playing Everquest because this game is great and we all know it. No one is dumping 100's of hours into bad games.
The Bible has survived due to it's validity, this I believe to be fact.
robayon
05-12-2022, 05:58 PM
It's like Everquest. We're here playing Everquest because this game is great and we all know it. No one is dumping 100's of hours into bad games.
The Bible has survived due to it's validity, this I believe to be fact.I have often wondered if some future archaeologist in 5,000 years or something will unearth a copy of The Avengers (2012) and view it as our historical records
Not to say that I think the bible and the avengers are the same, obviously not, I just mean... how does an outsider discern what may be a myth for entertainment purposes versus one that may exist for teaching moral lessons? I imagine there's context to be considered, if you can get it
One of these days I'll read The Hero with a Thousand Faces, one day
starkind
05-12-2022, 06:44 PM
Does watching Rabbi do youtube vids count?
Mblake1981
05-12-2022, 07:45 PM
pretty much every literary piece today is inspired from the epic of Gilgamesh, if they are not, they are inspired by one of the 5 mojor stories that were inspired by the epic of gilgamesh.
Its like saying the matrix movie is better than a book, because they used cameras.
Or like everquest is better than lord of the rings because it has interactivity.
EQ certainly has less walking than the LOTR films. :p
starkind
05-12-2022, 07:50 PM
If you turn off run in EQ it's way more enjoyable. Don't be a plebe.
Reiwa
05-12-2022, 11:31 PM
Nobody ever showered in LOTR.
Be bold. 🚿
A Knight
05-13-2022, 12:33 AM
All I remember is Sunday school class. Genesis. Cain and Able. Golden calf/False idols. Trumpets walls etc.
Jibartik
05-13-2022, 04:15 AM
I have often wondered if some future archaeologist in 5,000 years or something will unearth a copy of The Avengers (2012) and view it as our historical records
https://i.imgur.com/tKokXLE.png
starkind
05-13-2022, 10:54 AM
you definatley need to turn off run and only use a button for attack on/off so that you are only ever pressing that button to swing, using autoattack is also a plebe move
robayon
05-13-2022, 10:58 AM
https://i.imgur.com/tKokXLE.pnglol yes like that
i wonder how much we have all jumbled up about the history we supposedly understand
https://www.eng.ed.ac.uk/about/news/20170421/ancient-stone-carvings-confirm-date-devastating-comet-strike
Gustoo
05-13-2022, 12:07 PM
Zero.
In war thousands of men would run straight at eachother and just start hacking with swords. End of battle was when one side had no one left hacking.
Thats the most insane thing I’ve ever heard and yet I guess it happened that way, and we know how trench warfare in the war to end all wars was.
loramin
05-13-2022, 12:33 PM
It's factually true, even if you don't like it. The text survived for a reason. If people didn't like it, they wouldn't have preserved it.
It's like Everquest. We're here playing Everquest because this game is great and we all know it. No one is dumping 100's of hours into bad games.
The Bible has survived due to it's validity, this I believe to be fact.
You guys can believe anything you want: that's the beauty of belief.
But if you actually look at the history of it, there were hundreds of "mystery cults" just like Christianity ... they just worshipped other gods. The Jesus cult was just in the right place, at the right time, with the right message, to be the one that converted a bunch of primitive people.
That has almost nothing to with the quality of their religious text! The quality of that text was just one of a million factors that led the early Christian cult to success over its rivals.
starkind
05-13-2022, 12:37 PM
I never really understood defensive warfare or the way we wage war they didn't do much in my short time in the army to change that either
Reiwa
05-13-2022, 07:14 PM
You guys can believe anything you want: that's the beauty of belief.
But if you actually look at the history of it, there were hundreds of "mystery cults" just like Christianity ... they just worshipped other gods. The Jesus cult was just in the right place, at the right time, with the right message, to be the one that converted a bunch of primitive people.
That has almost nothing to with the quality of their religious text! The quality of that text was just one of a million factors that led the early Christian cult to success over its rivals.
Bruh you should turn the other cheek in this argument bruh maybe sit this one out.
starkind
05-13-2022, 07:24 PM
I tried to read revelations 17 today I mostly got through it.
DeathsSilkyMist
05-13-2022, 07:25 PM
You guys can believe anything you want: that's the beauty of belief.
But if you actually look at the history of it, there were hundreds of "mystery cults" just like Christianity ... they just worshipped other gods. The Jesus cult was just in the right place, at the right time, with the right message, to be the one that converted a bunch of primitive people.
That has almost nothing to with the quality of their religious text! The quality of that text was just one of a million factors that led the early Christian cult to success over its rivals.
This is a factually incorrect look at history. The only belief here is what you wrote.
Homesteaded
05-16-2022, 09:57 AM
You guys can believe anything you want: that's the beauty of belief.
But if you actually look at the history of it, there were hundreds of "mystery cults" just like Christianity ... they just worshipped other gods. The Jesus cult was just in the right place, at the right time, with the right message, to be the one that converted a bunch of primitive people.
That has almost nothing to with the quality of their religious text! The quality of that text was just one of a million factors that led the early Christian cult to success over its rivals.
Loramin is a zealous atheist.
starkind
05-16-2022, 10:14 AM
ya being fanatically athiest is really creepy lawl have to say some of those guys are like jeffery dahmmer level gross
i'm not saying u are loramin
just don't be liek them
robayon
05-16-2022, 10:23 AM
Loramin is a zealous atheist.If you want fewer atheists in the world, perhaps try demonstrating christ's behavior better rather than the constant hypocrisy
You're not going to bully anyone into faith
MrSparkle001
05-16-2022, 10:26 AM
Fanatically anything is annoying, but fanatic atheists are the most fedora-tipping annoying of all.
robayon
05-16-2022, 11:01 AM
I only said that because it was what Homesteaded is griping about. I do not know who is an atheist or who is not. I'm just saying if the stick isn't working, try the carrot
starkind
05-16-2022, 11:37 AM
I'm like what our founding fathers was whatever that was.
maybe mixxed with some gentile jewyness i don't even know how to say it is there something between a gentile and a jew? I haven't signed the social contract but i want to.
Jibartik
05-16-2022, 07:02 PM
EQ certainly has less walking than the LOTR films. :p
That's because in everquest... we run!
zd9eAX85_kw
Mblake1981
05-16-2022, 07:25 PM
When the selos accelerando kicks in.
Jibartik
05-16-2022, 07:36 PM
When the selos accelerando kicks in.
:D
hobart
05-16-2022, 09:28 PM
Fanatically anything is annoying, but fanatic atheists are the most fedora-tipping annoying of all.
You'd think fanatically correct would be less annoying than fanatically superstitious. You'd also think no one would be stupid enough to get conned into voting for Donald Trump.
I don't know if I agree with who is worse, but the problem with atheists is that they don't recognize the role religion plays in culture and community. That weekly gathering of people with the one thing that they have in common is both powerful and beneficial to an enlightened community.
loramin
05-16-2022, 09:32 PM
If you want fewer atheists in the world, perhaps try demonstrating christ's behavior better rather than the constant hypocrisy
You're not going to bully anyone into faith
Look, you can believe your holy book (whatever holy book is special to you) is magical and special, and I can't stop you from believing it. You can be the same as all those other groups, that all believe their holy book is the special one, and y'all can fight all day over who's book is holiest. Have fun.
But for those who like to live in the real world, Christianity was a cult, the same as literally hundreds of other cults at the time. Some of them were extermely similar (eg. some Osiris cults also had a resurrection of their god, just like Jesus!).
Ultimately, one cult had to win out, and it happened to be Christianity; saying as much isn't "bullying", it's stating facts.
loramin
05-16-2022, 09:39 PM
I don't know if I agree with who is worse, but the problem with atheists is that they don't recognize the role religion plays in culture and community.
And the problem with people who make gross generalizations is ... they're often wrong.
I've been dubbed not just an atheist, but a "zealous atheist" in this thread, so I think my atheist credentials are certified (although, for the record, I consider myself a deist). But I would be the first to admit that the trappings of religion (eg. going to church, participating in group charities, etc.) have huge benefits for society and community.
And there are lots of great religions out there that let you get those benefits, even as an atheist! I can go to a reformed Jewish synagogue and be welcomed as an atheist. Or I can go to a Buddhist temple (at least some branches), or even a Satanic one, and have no problem.
Even so, I think an "atheist church" would be a great way to get back some of the legitimate benefits that get lost when you abandon religion, and I hope someone starts one.
Mblake1981
05-16-2022, 10:07 PM
I'm like what our founding fathers was whatever that was.
They were called men who most likely had intact testicles.
Reiwa
05-16-2022, 10:21 PM
Look, you can believe your holy book (whatever holy book is special to you) is magical and special, and I can't stop you from believing it. You can be the same as all those other groups, that all believe their holy book is the special one, and y'all can fight all day over who's book is holiest. Have fun.
You shall judge them by their fruits.
It's clearly not the Hindus or the Mosselmen.
Jibartik
05-16-2022, 11:45 PM
But for those who like to live in the real world, Christianity was a cult, the same as literally hundreds of other cults at the time. Some of them were extermely similar (eg. some Osiris cults also had a resurrection of their god, just like Jesus!).
To be fair if you define something as broad as Christianity as a cult, then you are absolutely in one.
Even so, I think an "atheist church" would be a great way to get back some of the legitimate benefits that get lost when you abandon religion, and I hope someone starts one.
you're already in that cult, it's called this:
https://i.imgur.com/vIXe9Bv.png
By your own definition of a cult, this is identical.
Hope this helps!
(I realize it wont.)
robayon
05-17-2022, 12:02 AM
Look, you can believe your holy book (whatever holy book is special to you) is magical and special, and I can't stop you from believing it. You can be the same as all those other groups, that all believe their holy book is the special one, and y'all can fight all day over who's book is holiest. Have fun.
But for those who like to live in the real world, Christianity was a cult, the same as literally hundreds of other cults at the time. Some of them were extermely similar (eg. some Osiris cults also had a resurrection of their god, just like Jesus!).
Ultimately, one cult had to win out, and it happened to be Christianity; saying as much isn't "bullying", it's stating facts.I do not give any weight to any holy books whatsoever
I do not believe the modern so-called "christian" has much to do with the historical "christian" called upon in any of those holy books
Jibartik
05-17-2022, 12:07 AM
A bunch of fat jerks get together on Sunday and try to remind themselves to be good and everyone loses their minds.
The problem millennials have with these people is that their culture is American not that they are Christian.
MrSparkle001
05-17-2022, 09:45 AM
You'd think fanatically correct would be less annoying than fanatically superstitious. You'd also think no one would be stupid enough to get conned into voting for Donald Trump.
I don't know if I agree with who is worse, but the problem with atheists is that they don't recognize the role religion plays in culture and community. That weekly gathering of people with the one thing that they have in common is both powerful and beneficial to an enlightened community.
and that's what I mean. "Fanatically correct" my ass. It is false and it is misguiding and it is leading to our immoral failure and weakening our society. Hedonism has taken the place of religion in the minds of the young and it has weakened us. You can already see it. We are divided and always at odds with each other and that is a recipe for disaster. Our society will crumble. It won't happen immediately or in our lifetimes but the seed has been sown.
https://i.imgur.com/isoXk6v.jpg
We have strayed from God, we have strayed from morality, we have divided ourselves, and hard times are already coming. Can you imagine if the millennial and zoomer generations had to fight WW2? Omfg.
I'm in a mood today lol. Damned bosses and their boss stuff.
DeathsSilkyMist
05-17-2022, 09:57 AM
Look, you can believe your holy book (whatever holy book is special to you) is magical and special, and I can't stop you from believing it. You can be the same as all those other groups, that all believe their holy book is the special one, and y'all can fight all day over who's book is holiest. Have fun.
But for those who like to live in the real world, Christianity was a cult, the same as literally hundreds of other cults at the time. Some of them were extermely similar (eg. some Osiris cults also had a resurrection of their god, just like Jesus!).
Ultimately, one cult had to win out, and it happened to be Christianity; saying as much isn't "bullying", it's stating facts.
Whether you believe in Christianity or not is irrelevant. Your take on history is simply wrong. Luck was not the primary reason why the Bible survived though time. You're just saying that to try and back up your argument that the Bible is poor literature. You can personally believe that, but poor literature doesn't survive 2000+ years. Also, the Bible was based on Judaism, which is even older. Was that just luck too that it survived?
starkind
05-17-2022, 10:28 AM
and that's what I mean. "Fanatically correct" my ass. It is false and it is misguiding and it is leading to our immoral failure and weakening our society. Hedonism has taken the place of religion in the minds of the young and it has weakened us. You can already see it. We are divided and always at odds with each other and that is a recipe for disaster. Our society will crumble. It won't happen immediately or in our lifetimes but the seed has been sown.
https://i.imgur.com/isoXk6v.jpg
We have strayed from God, we have strayed from morality, we have divided ourselves, and hard times are already coming. Can you imagine if the millennial and zoomer generations had to fight WW2? Omfg.
I'm in a mood today lol. Damned bosses and their boss stuff.
100% agree with this. And I'm one of the "quote" weak men "/unquote". If you are grasping for labels because you are defective.
Let that sink in folks.
And if you are wont or inclined to call me strong... because despite being a weak man I have learned and grown past that weakness, you got another thing coming to you.
Because, if you think or feel I'm strong. You are a fucking fool.
Reiwa
05-17-2022, 11:26 AM
The shit we're in right now is a logistics crisis, not the dagor dagorath. Settle down Beavis.
starkind
05-17-2022, 11:49 AM
The shit we're in right now is a logistics crisis, not the dagor dagorath. Settle down Beavis.
this is a shit tier meme it sums up how i feel tho
https://i.imgur.com/dqJr1mQ.png
as someone who has had to do for myself (and others) MOST Of my life and now that I am disabled and rely on others
FUCK THIS SHIT LAWL
-------
We are in a logistics crisis because of a blind faith in a police state, military, health, financial, and greedolistic industrial complex where no man is free to govern nor defend themselves from the predation of others unless they live on the fringe of society or above it as a taskmaster.
And we glorify that. And the death machine that runnnsss
-----------------
Collapse go Brrrrrr :cool:
----
having been the guy wearing the gas mask
https://i.imgur.com/CXtGiKt.png
:o
Reiwa
05-17-2022, 11:56 AM
this is a shit tier meme it sums up how i feel tho
https://i.imgur.com/dqJr1mQ.png
as someone who has had to do for myself (and others) MOST Of my life and now that I am disabled and rely on others
FUCK THIS SHIT LAWL
-------
We are in a logistics crisis because of a blind faith in a police state, military, health, financial, and greedolistic industrial complex where no man is free to govern nor defend themselves from the predation of others unless they live on the fringe of society or above it as a taskmaster.
And we glorify that. And the death machine that runnnsss
-----------------
Collapse go Brrrrrr :cool:
----
having been the guy wearing the gas mask
https://i.imgur.com/CXtGiKt.png
:o
I wonder where doomerism lands on the DSM-V 🤔
robayon
05-17-2022, 12:01 PM
I wonder where doomerism lands on the DSM-V 🤔Do you actually think things will get better?
Reiwa
05-17-2022, 12:10 PM
Do you actually think things will get better?
https://i.imgur.com/njzg369.jpg
We probably disagree about what better is though.
robayon
05-17-2022, 12:16 PM
We probably disagree about what better is though.I guess we could also clarify what I meant by "things" but that's pretty broad
It's as slow as molassses at work today. What does 'better' look like to Reiwa?!
Reiwa
05-17-2022, 12:22 PM
I guess we could also clarify what I meant by "things" but that's pretty broad
It's as slow as molassses at work today. What does 'better' look like to Reiwa?!
Digressing back to the topic - the pandemic offered a unique opportunity to reset production to provide products preferred by the plebity.
So we might not have Hydrox anymore, but stuff people want more.
Probably 3 years for it to all spin up and start flowing.
starkind
05-17-2022, 12:23 PM
I'll admit there is value and merit in science and that things could get better.
Not under the current system.
The current system either kills or enslaves erudites and elevates barbarism.
By system. I mean legal and social system. That includes our cultural values etc.
I have poked at Reiwa. I wonder if they have walked the earth though or if they just live in a sheltered villa in Hawaii. Or are justifying their position of power and authority.
I ran into this on imgur when questioning someone about the health insurance industry. Turns out they where an administrator of a large firm. And then I rolled my eyes. I was sneaky and in a better mood so I put more effort into actually communicating in a way that doesn't create pushback and resentment among the parties. I'm in a low effort space right now though. I cannot drag myself over the next 3 meters of this conversation with someone who isn't willing to do some introspection and be vulnerable. Or take ownership of their place and part in Daes Dae'mar.
We will see more and more Masema-s- as time goes on if we keep stearing course and the media industry and police and military keep driving down against the poor and disenfranchised and do not turn on their masters.
This is a Kobyoshimaru scenario. We will see the rise of totalitarians and fascism until those in power are motivated to start tearing at each others own throats and then it will all come down. Already the vast majority of American's live in abject poverty and ignorance and lack the ability or will to elevate themselves. Don't tell me things are better now than they have ever been - a life of 40 years working at Walmart and driving yourself into drug addiction and disability or criminality and welfare is not a better life than even the 1400's. Driving and sacrificing your country into poverty for convenience, so that future generations of children are born indentured, lobotomized, and ignorant, is not a better life.
There is a slight chance if the most powerful people in the world sacrifice their power and seek to give the people below them a chance to elevate themselves. They won't though. It is not in human nature. And they see themselves as lords and princes of the world who believe that if they let go of power the barbaric masses will just slaughter everyone including themselves. They are too afraid, greedy, and vengeful to retire to a peaceful life of little influence and little privilege.
Satan is rising like a tide of blood and the seas will run red.
Whether that is your aim or not. Whether you wish it to or not. It isn't about you. It's about us. And who we decide to be as a people. And the common man will slaughter themselves like crazed starving pigs in a dark cramped pen. And they are being driven to it by an out of touch and cruel dispassionate class of tyrants who see themselves as deserving or better in some way than the masses they manipulate.
https://i.imgur.com/Re9c09e.gif
https://i.imgur.com/BLLAPvY.gif
starkind
05-17-2022, 12:54 PM
like don't lose hope tho guys
go touch grass
waterfalls are cool too
just breath deep and slow and getchu some of that bee energy u'll be fine
FINE! <3
:o
robayon
05-17-2022, 12:59 PM
Digressing back to the topic - the pandemic offered a unique opportunity to reset production to provide products preferred by the plebity.
So we might not have Hydrox anymore, but stuff people want more.
Probably 3 years for it to all spin up and start flowing.What sorta stuff, you reckon?
robayon
05-17-2022, 01:01 PM
like don't lose hope tho guysI can't or I'll probably quit :)
starkind
05-17-2022, 01:08 PM
Should we let people self harm or harm others as Christians?
starkind
05-17-2022, 01:16 PM
I can't or I'll probably quit :)
Well. I see these times as a challenge. And I recognize that I am not unique. Or special. It's not all my fault. I'm not in control. Don't need to be. That it's all impersonal and that I have the power to speak the truth and be good. That even if it hurts it feels good because I'm being genuine and true. So I am willing and able to suffer quite a bit for others, and that suffering translates to me feeling pride and overcoming my guilt and shame at being weak and helpless.
Then I ground. And I find small moments of judgment free pleasure in the color of a rose for example.
There's a time and place for everything and I do not leave myself to dwell in G-d's wrath or my own despair. I will not shy away from saying so. If it's appropriate.
And in this thread when Reiwa says it's all cool man. It'll be fine. Stop complaining. That's a fair time for rollyeyes!
:eek::p:o:):cool:
Reiwa
05-17-2022, 01:31 PM
What sorta stuff, you reckon?
Most likely advanced electronics or butt plugs.
Perhaps both.
As we build more units at a time, the price will decrease precipitously and America will be great again. 🇺🇲👍
starkind
05-17-2022, 01:35 PM
Reiwa: https://deusex.fandom.com/wiki/Pequod%27s
starkind
05-17-2022, 01:39 PM
hvITNmljiyo
How old is this game lawl?
December 2, 2003
:o
starkind
05-17-2022, 01:42 PM
Just stop and smell the roses bros. The journey will soon end. And peace will once again reign.
Reiwa
05-17-2022, 01:44 PM
Reiwa: https://deusex.fandom.com/wiki/Pequod%27s
1YSltK-10zk
loramin
05-17-2022, 01:56 PM
You shall judge them by their fruits.
It's clearly not the Hindus or the Mosselmen.
So the fruit of Christianity has never been slavery, torture, murder, hypocrisy (THE POPE HAD KIDS!), etc.?
Do you know anything about human history at all?
Was that just luck too that it survived?
Yes!!! Do you know anything about the history of the Jews? The entire race was nearly wiped off the face of the planet, multiple times (pre-Holocaust).
And you know what? So were literally thousands of other religious/ethnographic groups at the time! But we never hear about them because the Jews were the lucky ones that happened to survive when those other ones (that no one knows/cares about now) didn't.
There's even a term for this failure in logical thinking: survivorship bias. Both Juidaism and Christianity survived, when hundreds of other groups didn't, but you don't hear about those groups so you make incorrect assumptions about the survivors.
starkind
05-17-2022, 02:02 PM
So the fruit of Christianity has never been slavery, torture, murder, hypocrisy (THE POPE HAD KIDS!), etc.?
Do you know anything about human history at all?
Yes!!! Do you know anything about the history of the Jews? The entire race was nearly wiped off the face of the planet, multiple times (pre-Holocaust).
And you know what? So were literally thousands of other religious/ethnographic groups at the time! But we never hear about them because the Jews were the lucky ones that happened to survive when those other ones (that no one knows/cares about now) didn't.
There's even a term for this failure in logical thinking: survivorship bias. Both Juidaism and Christianity survived, when hundreds of other groups didn't, but you don't hear about those groups so you make incorrect assumptions about the survivors.
Those things existed in greater proportion prior to Christianity.
starkind
05-17-2022, 02:04 PM
1YSltK-10zk
Nice song 🎵 😁
Reiwa
05-17-2022, 02:06 PM
So the fruit of Christianity has never been slavery, hypocrisy (THE POPE HAD KIDS!), etc.?
Do you know anything about human history at all?
Then, in the thirteenth century, Saint Thomas Aquinas deduced that slavery was a sin, and a series of popes upheld his position, beginning in 1435 and culminating in three major pronouncements against slavery by Pope Paul III in 1537.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_Council_of_the_Lateran
That's 3 minutes of googling. I hope it has helped.
starkind
05-17-2022, 02:28 PM
This is why Reiwa is sometimes my favorite poster even tho sometimes I just want to roll my eyes constantly like an apoplectic teen.
https://i.imgur.com/yn2SsgO.gif
loramin
05-17-2022, 02:33 PM
That's 3 minutes of googling. I hope it has helped.
And all of the Christian slave-owners, both before and after that (maybe you forgot that slavery was still widespread in America ... by Christian slave-owners ... for centuries after?) just don't matter?
Reiwa
05-17-2022, 02:36 PM
And all of the Christian slave-owners, both before and after that (maybe you forgot that slavery was still widespread in America ... by Christian slave-owners ... for centuries after?) just don't matter?
Talk to the Lutherists about it?
Here's a meme.
https://i.imgur.com/VM2vZTy.jpeg
DeathsSilkyMist
05-17-2022, 02:38 PM
And you know what? So were literally thousands of other religious/ethnographic groups at the time! But we never hear about them because the Jews were the lucky ones that happened to survive when those other ones (that no one knows/cares about now) didn't.
There's even a term for this failure in logical thinking: survivorship bias. Both Juidaism and Christianity survived, when hundreds of other groups didn't, but you don't hear about those groups so you make incorrect assumptions about the survivors.
This is wrong. You need to read some history. If you think everything you disagree with only survived due to luck, that is just nonsense. There is obviously something people liked about the Bible that transcends luck, otherwise civilizations for over a thousand years wouldn't have based their entire culture around it. Or are you suggesting all cultures are purely created by luck, and people have no agency in determining the worth of something?
starkind
05-17-2022, 02:39 PM
Talk to the Lutherists about it?
Here's a meme.
https://i.imgur.com/VM2vZTy.jpeg
that is an unfair meme to use on someone like loruman
Gustoo
05-17-2022, 02:41 PM
If you're going to try to add up the accomplishments for "Good" accomplished by "Christians" you will first need to come up with a way to determine what a "Christian" is and also you will need to define what "Good" is since as you well know, "Good" is something the United States is having a really hard time deciding on, whether it be for killing unborn children or exactly what we should indoctrinate young children who made it through the gauntlet with.
Christianity is not designed to be a powerful organization for creating heaven on earth by following a set of rules or enforcing right conduct or morals. Efforts to instrumentalize Christianity in this way have had dubious outcomes, the Catholic church and it's long history being a major example.
When you go into a human organization whether it is a church or an office building you're going to get a random mashup of people that for some reason or another happen to participate in that scenario, whether to pick up a pay check, or to be involved in a community, or to feel a bit less guilty, or actually to learn to be like Jesus.
Finding glaring examples of "Christians" being evil says nothing about the merits of following Jesus, failure is a fact in human endeavor. In much of church history, a lot has been said about what you need to -believe- in order to be considered a Christian. This is not a biblical concept as Christ himself actually asks people to practice specific things, and do specific things. Struggling with your own consciousness to actually love guys like Horza when he's flaming like a maniac is a big part of Christianity, showing up to sit in a chair on Sundays and smiling at people and projecting a positive affect for a couple hours is totally inconsequential. Jesus is concerned with matters of the heart and not really anything else.
Walking around with an intellectual acceptance of the teachings of the Bible while sneering at the grimey people taking advantage of some public space to pile trash and tents up is probably the worst place a human spirit can be. By worst I mean least prepared to actually become Christ like and by that I mean, getting aligned with the sole source of creativity, love, passion, joy, creation and whatever other positive things that exist.
For anyone interested in digging through hard mode, sound but challenging Christian philosophy I would point you towards George Macdonald maybe "Unspoken Sermons" for straight up lecturing or "Thomas Wingfold, Curate" to see a fictional example of someone elses journey (A minister in the church of england) to becoming an actual Christian. He's from about 1870's and everything in england at that time is basically the same as present day USA it's pretty startling.
For easier slightly more modern writing that is more technical and better for internet debates and generally the way we speak in present day, G.K. Chesterton's "Heretics" and "Orthodoxy" are a lot easier to digest but significantly less deep, being more in line with the kinda fighting we usually do about what is right and what is wrong which is generally kinda surface level. https://www.gutenberg.org/ebooks/author/80
Both of these guys are public domain and written and audio versions of their works are available for free from gutenberg, just by putting them in a podcast, or by going to libravox where public domain audio recordings are compiled.
And reading George MacDonald with no personal context or history may be a bit like picking up a calculus book when you're struggling with times tables. I just wanted to point towards some real stuff for anyone wondering, not joel oldstein trash.
loramin
05-17-2022, 02:42 PM
This is wrong. You need to read some history. If you think everything you disagree with only survived due to luck, that is just nonsense. There is obviously something people liked about the Bible that transcends luck, otherwise civilizations for over a thousand years wouldn't have based their entire culture around it. Or are you suggesting all cultures are purely created by luck, and people have no agency in determining the worth of something?
Obviously/logically there is ... or completely illogically you have a belief in "your team" (the one you happened to be born into), and you're starting from that illogical basis?
And to a certain extent, yes: human history is the story of who was lucky and who wasn't.
DeathsSilkyMist
05-17-2022, 02:58 PM
Obviously/logically there is ... or completely illogically you have a belief in "your team" (the one you happened to be born into), and you're starting from that illogical basis?
And to a certain extent, yes: human history is the story of who was lucky and who wasn't.
Its irrelevant whether or not you were born into a specific culture. I am not Chinese, but I can recognize the basic logic that their culture was durable enough to survive thousands of years. That transcends luck, regardless of how much you like or dislike the culture.
The Bible likewise has something that transcends luck, or it wouldn't have been the cornerstone of multiple highly successful cultures over a thousand years.
Your opinion of the Bible is irrelevant. Factually it is a good story, and history proves it. You don't have to be a Christian or religious to recognize this.
robayon
05-17-2022, 03:03 PM
Can we talk about the Book of Urantia? I used to know about a half dozen Urantians
https://www.urantia.org/
MrSparkle001
05-17-2022, 03:15 PM
And all of the Christian slave-owners, both before and after that (maybe you forgot that slavery was still widespread in America ... by Christian slave-owners ... for centuries after?) just don't matter?
Slavery was widespread in the entire world, not just America. It still exists in Africa and other areas today.
You just don't hear about it.
Slavery has been around probably as long as humanity has been around, on every continent. It was not considered evil or immoral or just plain wrong until the renaissance, and that new viewpoint was largely ignored because it was an accepted practice around the world.
Not good to judge history through a 21st century lens.
MrSparkle001
05-17-2022, 03:20 PM
100% agree with this. And I'm one of the "quote" weak men "/unquote". If you are grasping for labels because you are defective.
Let that sink in folks.
And if you are wont or inclined to call me strong... because despite being a weak man I have learned and grown past that weakness, you got another thing coming to you.
Because, if you think or feel I'm strong. You are a fucking fool.
No, the weak men are the ones that are living easy off the hard work of their ancestors, turning to hedonism and creature comforts and petty conflicts instead of focusing on hard work and bettering their country/empire/whatever. It doesn't mean physically weak (if that's what you are).
We are in that stage right now in the west, and in the U.S. in particular, and it's going to crush us. Thankfully I'll be dead by then as I'm middle-aged now, but little kids growing up right now are in for a world of shit when they get old.
starkind
05-17-2022, 03:34 PM
No, the weak men are the ones that are living easy off the hard work of their ancestors, turning to hedonism and creature comforts and petty conflicts instead of focusing on hard work and bettering their country/empire/whatever. It doesn't mean physically weak (if that's what you are).
We are in that stage right now in the west, and in the U.S. in particular, and it's going to crush us. Thankfully I'll be dead by then as I'm middle-aged now, but little kids growing up right now are in for a world of shit when they get old.
Thanks for the clarification.
Yeah I'm a little bit of both right now. Mostly physically weak tho. If I was strong I would take my small pocket change and buy some land and forge a kingdom.
loramin
05-17-2022, 04:02 PM
Slavery was widespread in the entire world, not just America. It still exists in Africa and other areas today.
You just don't hear about it.
Slavery has been around probably as long as humanity has been around, on every continent. It was not considered evil or immoral or just plain wrong until the renaissance, and that new viewpoint was largely ignored because it was an accepted practice around the world.
Not good to judge history through a 21st century lens.
Obviously we can't judge history through a modern lens, but you're just supporting my point: primitive people were ... primitive. All our ancestors were, whatever our ethnic background.
The arrival of the bible (which, BTW, came hundreds of years after Christ died ... imagine playing a game of telephone that goes on for hundreds of years, in a time before cell phones, email, or even postal service, and you'll realize how little the reality of Christ has anything to do with the bible) did not magically turn "bad people good".
Early (and modern) Christians are, on average, just as good/bad as non-Christians; their holy book didn't make them better people. They're just as moral as any other people, with any other holy text (or without one).
DeathsSilkyMist
05-17-2022, 04:06 PM
Obviously we can't judge history through a modern lens, but you're just supporting my point: primitive people were ... primitive. All our ancestors were, whatever our ethnic background.
Assuming people from the past were stupid is also wrong.
loramin
05-17-2022, 04:07 PM
Wow you're bad at English. You really think "primitive" = "stupid"?
DeathsSilkyMist
05-17-2022, 04:10 PM
Wow you're bad at English. You really think "primitive" = "stupid"?
In the context of the sentence that is what you are implying. But if you meant something else, please elaborate.
Reiwa
05-17-2022, 05:10 PM
They're just as moral as any other people, with any other holy text (or without one).
https://i.imgur.com/8m3FzmV.jpg
loramin
05-17-2022, 05:15 PM
In the context of the sentence that is what you are implying. But if you meant something else, please elaborate.
Next time maybe try reading the context of the conversation before instead of just trying to come up with a witty one-liner to disagree with anything I say ... out of context?
DeathsSilkyMist
05-17-2022, 05:17 PM
Next time maybe try reading the context of the conversation before instead of just trying to come up with a witty one-liner to disagree with anything I say ... out of context?
You wrote the comment:) It is your responsibility to be clear. It is factually true people have used the word "primitive" to imply stupid. I cannot read your mind, so please elaborate on what you mean by "primitive people were ... primitive".
loramin
05-17-2022, 05:18 PM
https://i.imgur.com/8m3FzmV.jpg
So you're saying several of our founding fathers have no morality? I call bullshit.
Thomas Jefferson (as just one example) literally made his own bible (https://www.history.com/news/thomas-jefferson-bible-religious-beliefs), by cutting out all superstitious parts. But I think it's pretty safe to say that he (and the rest of our deist founders) were all very good people, in a moral sense.
loramin
05-17-2022, 05:20 PM
You wrote the comment:) It is your responsibility to be clear. It is factually true people have used the word "primitive" to imply stupid. I cannot read your mind, so please elaborate on what you mean by "primitive people were ... primitive".
When someone shows up in the middle of a conversation and doesn't understand what's going on, because they couldn't be bothered to read/listen to the conversation that preceded it ... it's not their fault, it's the fault of the people having the conversation? Really?
We were very clearly having a conversation about slavery and other "primitive" practices before you chimed in.
Reiwa
05-17-2022, 05:21 PM
So you're saying several of our founding fathers have no morality? I call bullshit.
Thomas Jefferson (as just one example) literally made his own bible (https://www.history.com/news/thomas-jefferson-bible-religious-beliefs), by cutting out all superstitious parts. But I think it's pretty safe to say that he (and the rest of our deist founders) were all very good people, in a moral sense.
Can be good(or bad) without it, but can't be moral. That's all.
DeathsSilkyMist
05-17-2022, 05:22 PM
When someone shows up in the middle of a conversation and doesn't understand what's going on, because they couldn't be arsed to read/listen to the conversation that preceded it ... it's not their fault, it's the people having the conversation?
I am not sure why it is so hard for you to elaborate on what you said. Again, it is your responsibility to create a comment that clearly describes what you mean. Making generic comments and assuming people will understand what you meant is also wrong, and silly.
loramin
05-17-2022, 05:23 PM
Can be good(or bad) without it, but can't be moral. That's all.
Again, I call bullshit. You have zero evidence to support that crazy idea.
Danth
05-17-2022, 05:24 PM
The arrival of the bible (which, BTW, came hundreds of years after Christ died ...
That's something of an over-simplification; it appeared as a single cohesive volume relatively late but nearly all of its individual pieces existed earlier. Much of the old testament is rather ancient. The gospels all originate from relatively shortly after Christ's own life. The many writings and letters attributed to Paul originate from not long after that. One of the larger questions of the early Christian movement is just how much Paul and his sect influenced and altered it for his own political ends.
loramin
05-17-2022, 05:24 PM
I am not sure why it is so hard for you to elaborate on what you said. Again, it is your responsibility to create a comment that clearly describes what you mean. Making generic comments and assuming people will understand what you meant is also wrong, and silly.
Yeah, it's madness to try and have a conversation with people in a thread. Every post in that thread should contain all information discussed as of that point in it, just so no one gets confused when they skip previous posts :rolleyes:
loramin
05-17-2022, 05:25 PM
That's something of an over-simplification; it appeared as a single cohesive volume relatively late but nearly all of its individual pieces existed earlier. Much of the old testament is rather ancient. The gospels all originate from relatively shortly after Christ's own life. The many writings and letters attributed to Paul originate from not long after that. One of the larger questions of the early Christian movement is just how much Paul and his sect influenced and altered it for his own political ends.
Sure, but all of that still amounted to (basically) a hundreds-of-years-long game of telephone.
P.S. Also you're leaving out that there were tons of parts of the bible that never made it in.
It's not like the bible existed as the bible prior, just sort of split up. There were tons of gospels that you may never have heard of (eg. the gospels of Mary or Judas) that were just as "official" as the ones we now think of as the bible (until, hundreds of years later, a bunch of people decided which ones to keep).
And, again ... this is how all the primitive cults worked! It's not like there was just one version of Hercules or Thor or whoever, there was a ton of different stories, some of which contradicted others. And this is true of all primitive religions, because they didn't have unifying technologies (like the Internet or even postal service) to make them agree. The cult of Christianity was the same as the rest.
Reiwa
05-17-2022, 05:27 PM
Again, I call bullshit. You have zero evidence to support that crazy idea.
It's about systems dude. Without the backing of an infallible superbeing it's just like, your opinion, man. :p
DeathsSilkyMist
05-17-2022, 05:28 PM
Yeah, it's madness to try and have a conversation with people in a thread. Every post in that thread should contain all information discussed as of that point in it, just so no one gets confused when they skip previous posts :rolleyes:
Lots of excuses, yet no elaboration. Please quote the context you are referring to in this thread. I have read the thread, and there is nothing there that elaborates on what you said.
loramin
05-17-2022, 05:34 PM
It's about systems dude. Without the backing of an infallible superbeing it's just like, your opinion, man. :p
Without evidence your claim is just you claiming something to be true. I can yell at the top of my lungs about how the sky is orange, not blue ... but that doesn't make it so, and you shouldn't believe me, unless I can show you a picture or video or something of the sky being orange.
loramin
05-17-2022, 05:36 PM
Lots of excuses, yet no elaboration. Please quote the context you are referring to in this thread. I have read the thread, and there is nothing there that elaborates on what you said.
It was literally three posts before mine, and the other two prior clearly were talking about something else. Learn to read :p
Slavery was widespread in the entire world, not just America. It still exists in Africa and other areas today.
You just don't hear about it.
Slavery has been around probably as long as humanity has been around, on every continent. It was not considered evil or immoral or just plain wrong until the renaissance, and that new viewpoint was largely ignored because it was an accepted practice around the world.
Not good to judge history through a 21st century lens.
Reiwa
05-17-2022, 05:38 PM
Without evidence your claim is just you claiming something to be true. I can yell at the top of my lungs about how the sky is orange, not blue ... but that doesn't make it so, and you shouldn't believe me, unless I can show you a picture or video or something of the sky being orange.
That's what you're doing now. Stop hollering that morality is the same as your opinion on good and bad.
It's not.
DeathsSilkyMist
05-17-2022, 05:41 PM
It was literally three posts before mine, and the other two prior clearly were talking about something else. Learn to read :p
I read that comment. It doesn't have any context to what you meant by "primitive people were... primitive". I am not sure why you are assuming someone else's comment has the proper context to what was in your brain when you replied. I am not a mind reader, so I do not know how you interpreted that comment.
loramin
05-17-2022, 05:43 PM
That's what you're doing now. Stop hollering that morality is the same as your opinion on good and bad.
It's not.
There is plenty of objective evidence that religion != morality, and zero evidence that religion is somehow a prerequisite for morality.
I mean, there's an entire Wikipedia page on the topic of "Morality and religion" (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Morality_and_religion):
According to Stephen Gaukroger: "It was generally assumed in the 17th century that religion provided the unique basis for morality, and that without religion, there could be no morality."[18] This view slowly shifted over time.
Congrats: you're thinking at a 17th century level ;)
There's even an entire second page about Secular Morality (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Secular_morality):
Secular morality is the aspect of philosophy that deals with morality outside of religious traditions. Modern examples include humanism, freethinking, and most versions of consequentialism.
So I've got multiple philosophical frameworks (and wiki pages detailing them) all demonstrating the falacy of your argument ... where's your evidence that you can't be moral without religion? I'd love to see it.
Danth
05-17-2022, 05:44 PM
Sure, but all of that still amounted to (basically) a hundreds-of-years-long game of telephone.
Point being it may have been less telephone game and more deliberate manipulation. The Christian faith (and its associated culture) did not replace the pagan Roman faith by accident or through mere luck; rather it was the culmination of many decades of concentrated social and political effort. Some texts never made public--yeah, I was raised Catholic, and they mentioned that in Sunday School. It's been the stuff of conspiracy theories for literal centuries but the Church more or less maintains it's largely redundant story and non-factor. I don't see that it matters.
As for morality, if someone tries telling me that he can't be moral or nobody can have morality without the threat of some invisible sky wizard striking him down, I'll regard that man as probably a very small and craven man indeed. Some people probably *can't* act right without a threat of eternal beat-down. I can.
loramin
05-17-2022, 05:46 PM
As for morality, if someone tries telling me that he can't be moral or nobody can have morality without the threat of some invisible sky wizard striking him down, I'll regard that man as probably a very small and craven man indeed. Some people probably *can't* act right without a threat of eternal beat-down. I can.
Amen.
loramin
05-17-2022, 05:50 PM
I read that comment. It doesn't have any context to what you meant by "primitive people were... primitive". I am not sure why you are assuming someone else's comment has the proper context to what was in your brain when you replied. I am not a mind reader, so I do not know how you interpreted that comment.
I even quoted it before my post! Jesus Christ man, do you seriously want me to recap an entire 10+ page thread in every comment I make?
DeathsSilkyMist
05-17-2022, 05:52 PM
I even quoted it before my post! Jesus Christ man, do you seriously want me to recap an entire 10+ page thread in every comment I make?
Clearly you are dodging my question at this point. Instead of all of the excuse posts you just made, you could have elaborated on what you meant lol. I am really not sure why this is so hard.
loramin
05-17-2022, 05:56 PM
Clearly you are dodging my question at this point. Instead of all of the excuse posts you just made, you could have elaborated on what you meant lol. I am really not sure why this is so hard.
If you truly can't understand my post (again, with the post it's responding to quoted directly above it), then you're truly too stupid for me to converse with.
But I don't think you are ... I think you're just a troll who got caught trying to get a clever quip in without understanding any of the conversation's context ... and now you're trying to troll your way out of it.
Danth
05-17-2022, 05:59 PM
I think you guys are both enjoying throwing some barbs at each other.
DeathsSilkyMist
05-17-2022, 05:59 PM
If you truly can't understand my post (again, with the post it's responding to quoted directly above it), then you're truly too stupid for me to converse with.
But I don't think you are ... I think you're just a troll who got caught trying to get a clever quip in without understanding any of the conversation's context ... and now you're trying to troll your way out of it.
Dodging again. If it is such a simple thing to explain, it would have taken less time/text than your excuses. Why is it such a problem to write a few sentences explaining what you mean? It can't be so complex you have to re-hash the entire thread as you keep claiming lol.
Reiwa
05-17-2022, 06:00 PM
There is plenty of objective evidence that religion != morality, and zero evidence that religion is somehow a prerequisite for morality.
I mean, there's an entire Wikipedia page on the topic of "Morality and religion" (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Morality_and_religion):
Congrats: you're thinking at a 17th century level ;)
There's even an entire second page about Secular Morality (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Secular_morality):
So I've got multiple philosophical frameworks (and wiki pages detailing them) all demonstrating the falacy of your argument ... where's your evidence that you can't be moral without religion? I'd love to see it.
Opinions are not evidence. I'm not inclined to entertain the words of men who went on to murder God. :cool:
robayon
05-17-2022, 06:23 PM
https://i.imgur.com/8m3FzmV.jpgdo you have evidence of this claim
Reiwa
05-17-2022, 06:25 PM
do you have evidence of this claim
Yeah! My opinion is just as worthless as yours, so we both oughta shutup.
Danth
05-17-2022, 06:38 PM
Yeah! My opinion is just as worthless as yours, so we both oughta shutup.
Having worthless opinions is no reason to shut up here. It's not a courtroom! This is genuinely the place for insubstantial discussion.
Reiwa
05-17-2022, 06:48 PM
Having worthless opinions is no reason to shut up here. It's not a courtroom! This is genuinely the place for insubstantial discussion.
Not literally. I'm still explaining why you need the Arbiter or it's just monkey noise. 🐒
Mblake1981
05-17-2022, 09:39 PM
you're already in that cult, it's called this:
https://i.imgur.com/vIXe9Bv.png
By your own definition of a cult, this is identical.
Hope this helps!
(I realize it wont.)
"looks like my train has come in"
-Caleb
SDCQY6nHsbI
Homesteaded
05-17-2022, 10:01 PM
Obviously morality can be lived without religious context. It's also obvious that the Bible lays out a moral framework for living a moral and righteous life. People can run marathons without shoes but why would you when shoes are available?
People misusing and perverting religion is as old as time and throwing out Religion because bad people twist things is a cop out. I find that most people who take hard stances against religion are really taking issue with wicked men distorting what the Bible teaches or can teach us.
Thoughts and prayers to all.
starkind
05-18-2022, 07:07 AM
Obviously morality can be lived without religious context. It's also obvious that the Bible lays out a moral framework for living a moral and righteous life. People can run marathons without shoes but why would you when shoes are available?
People misusing and perverting religion is as old as time and throwing out Religion because bad people twist things is a cop out. I find that most people who take hard stances against religion are really taking issue with wicked men distorting what the Bible teaches or can teach us.
Thoughts and prayers to all.
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