shaman chest piece question

[Tunabros]

Me and my friend were having a little talk about what is ideal for a shaman BP:

Chestplate of vindication or HoT BP

Which is better? Is it up to preference or is there a reason why a lot of shamans I see

go vindi BP over HoT BP?

thanks for reading

[illuminary3]

There is an important question or two you're missing: for what purpose? raiding, leveling, PLing, soloing, grouping, solo challenges? It kind of changes depending on how you plan on playing the character. A short answer without nuance is: HoT BP is nice for the mana free clickie and good stats especially if the rest of your gear is fairly mediocre (like a mix of kunark and classic gear with some velious stuff in a couple slots). Vindi BP is a lot of shamans favorite BPs because its great for soloing/grouping due to the extra regen and tanky stats (high ac/100hp/resists). Because shamans don't rely on their maximum mana pool as much as other casting classes due to their ability to cast regen (and innate regen if troll/iksar) and canni, the extra stats on HoT gear isn't as important as it is for other mana reliant classes. For my money if you're absolutely BiS in all other slots the PoM BP is 1a. for solo/2-3 man group content, with Vindi BP being the 1b. and Fungi tunic being 1.c. If you're again theoretically BiS in your other slots then a Fungi is hard to beat while raiding. You'll canni/torp yourself and spot heal and buff like crazy while high end raiding and the extra regen is extra mana in a mana intensive environment.

[Toxigen]

Fungi until torpor then Vindi BP when solo farming. Fungi for basically everything else.

[Vaarsuvius]

Me and my friend were having a little talk about what is ideal for a shaman BP:

Chestplate of vindication or HoT BP

Which is better? Is it up to preference or is there a reason why a lot of shamans I see

go vindi BP over HoT BP?

thanks for reading

Get both, wear Vindi's and only switch to Wolfcaller's when someone asks for STA or you need to max WIS for trade skills in case you're not already capped.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Vindi BP is best in slot Post-Torpor due to it's great stats and high resistances.

Once you get Torpor, Fungi Tunic is a lot less useful. Pre-Torpor, Fungi Tunic is something like 40% of your total HP Regen, which is why it is so awesome for leveling. With Torpor, you are regenerating at 300HP a tick, so Fungi Tunic becomes something like 5% of your total HP regen. At that point the Resistances/AC/HP from Vindi BP is probably going to be saving you more when fighting hard content than the Fungi Tunic regeneration.

If you want the STA clickie you do not need to get the HoT BP, you can settle for Thurg or Kael, whichever is cheaper. I personally wouldn't get HoT BP unless you want it for the fashion. It is much more expensive than the Thurg BP if you are just using it for the clickie, and stat wise you would always pick Vindi BP over HoT BP. I have the Thurg BP bagged for the STA clickie.

[ArbiterBlixen]

Unless it’s a fight that requires resists, fungi will outperform Vindi Bp by a lot. Looks like shit though.

[Jibartik]

Unless it’s a fight that requires resists, fungi will outperform Vindi Bp by a lot. Looks like shit though.

will it though? the extra 100HP you get is multiplied for every torpor that refills your HP cast, do you regen that much during a fight?

If you refil HP 7 times during a fight, that's 700 HP

[illuminary3]

will it though? the extra 100HP you get is multiplied for every torpor that refills your HP cast, do you regen that much during a fight?

If you refil HP 7 times during a fight, that's 700 HP

If you hit full health 7 times from torping during a fight you're not torping and canni-ing at the correct ratio. Same concept as healing someone that's down 100hp with a Superior heal or chloroblast. Overhealing is a waste of your mana, and doubly so if you're not canni-ing your health into more mana.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Fungi will not out-perform Vindi BP. The math is very easy to calculate. You get 150HP per minute from Fungi Tunic. When fighting anything of consequence, that is basically negating one hit from a mob. Less if they are hitting over 150. Most fights aren't going to last more than 10 minutes. In a 10 minute fight Fungi Tunic gave you 1500HP at best. Torpor Heals you 1200-1500HP, depending on the tick. At best a Fungi Tunic will save you 1 Torpor (200 mana) in a single fight. If 1 Torpor or 200 mana was the difference between life and death, the issue with the fight wasn't your equipment.

If you hit full health 7 times from torping during a fight you're not torping and canni-ing at the correct ratio. Same concept as healing someone that's down 100hp with a Superior heal or chloroblast. Overhealing is a waste of your mana, and doubly so if you're not canni-ing your health into more mana.

The issue with thinking of Torpor like this is you don't really understand how powerful Torpor and cannibalize are. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HjZxMlJSCDc you can Torpor from low health and mana to full health and mana in 3 minutes. This means having a Fungi Tunic on during that period would have saved you 450ish HP, or 1/3rd of a Torpor. At best you are saving 30 seconds by putting that Fungi Tunic on.

Honestly it isn't a big deal if you overheal a bit on Torpor. Sometimes you want to cap your HP pool so you can take more hits before you need to Torpor again. Due to Torpor's 6HP to 1MP ratio, you have to be playing pretty bad to be inefficient to the point of it causing problems in most fights.

Also, sometimes you want to use Torpor when at full health when you are fighting something super difficult, as it gives you regen at the start of the fight to help reduce incoming damage before you get the Slow landed.

The problem with Fungi Tunic is it simply regenerates too slow when compared to Torpor. In any 12 second interval of a fight, 30HP should never be the difference between life and death. Once you get a mob Slowed, you have total control over the fight, and don't need the extra 15HP regen. And if you fail to get a mob slowed, you will probably have died/gated within a minute or two:) Two minutes equates to 300HP with a Fungi Tunic, and most difficult mobs can deal 300 damage unslowed in a few seconds.

The reason why Vindi BP is better is because you want as much defense as possible BEFORE the mob is slowed. Having that extra HP and AC reduces the chance of you dying before the slow. As I stated above, if you haven't Slowed the mob within one minute, you have probably lost the fight. In a one minute period, when fighting a mob dealing 150+ damage per hit, the HP and AC on Vindi BP is going to have a greater chance of saving you than the Fungi Tunic's regen.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Let me make my previous post a bit more concise.

The biggest threat to a Torpor Shaman is BURST damage. This means taking a large chunk of damage within a short period, such as a 12 second period. In 12 seconds a Fungi Tunic has soaked 30 damage. A Vindi BP gives you +2 regen and 100HP flat at minimum. This means your Vindi BP is already soaking 42 seconds worth of Fungi Tunic regen if you started the fight at full HP. Also, the additional AC/Resists are always giving you a chance to reduce a heavy damage attack into a lower damage attack. Vindi BP is going to increase your odds of survival in the first minute of the fight more often than a Fungi Tunic.

If the mob still isn't slowed after the first minute of the fight, you have probably lost the fight. In one minute a Fungi Tunic would have given you 150HP, which is only 30HP more than Vindi BP when you take into account the 100HP and +2 regen it offers from Aura of Battle. If 30HP was the difference between life and death in a fight, the problem in the fight wasn't your equipment. Once you have the mob slowed, the Fungi Tunic regen isn't necessary, because Torpor is doing the vast majority of the work. I can't think of any mobs where you need precisely 315 regen per tick to out-heal their damage. 300 regen per tick is either way more than enough, or significantly not enough.

[ArbiterBlixen]

You are way overestimating the added survivability you get with a vindi BP. Sure in the rare case where you're reaching sub 100hp I guess it technically saved you. Every other fight Fungi is worth 1300ish hp in a 10minute fight, Vindi BP is not worth 1300hp in a 10 minute fight. And btw, you keep comparing Fungi to torpor, when the comparison should be Fungi vs. Vindi bp.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

You are way overestimating the added survivability you get with a vindi BP. Sure in the rare case where you're reaching sub 100hp I guess it technically saved you. Every other fight Fungi is worth 1300ish hp in a 10minute fight, Vindi BP is not worth 1300hp in a 10 minute fight. And btw, you keep comparing Fungi to torpor, when the comparison should be Fungi vs. Vindi bp.

You are misunderstanding my points, and the math in general.

When you are not fighting, Fungi Tunic saves you 30 seconds at best, due to how fast Torpor recovers your HP/MP.

When you are fighting, the first minute of a fight is generally all that matters to a Torpor Shaman (i.e. the time before a mob is slowed).

In the first minute of the fight, if you are at full HP, Vindi BP will soak 120-165HP, depending on if you are STA capped. It also has a chance to reduce additional damage via AC/Resists.

In the first minute of the fight, if you are at full HP, Fungi Tunic will soak 150HP.

After the first minute of the fight, Fungi Tunic Regen is irrelevant, as you are either dead/gated, or in control of the fight (slow has landed).

Vindi BP can easily save you more than 1300HP in a 10 minute fight, depending on how the AC/Resists mitigate damage. But the point you are missing is 1300HP over 10 minutes is irrelevant anyway, because that is just 1 Torpor. If 1 Torpor (200 mana) is the difference between life and death, the problem wasn't your equipment, it was a problem with your skill, bad luck, or with the fight you picked.

May I ask if you have a Torpor Shaman? From my experience playing a Torpor Shaman for years on P99, I can tell you that 15 extra HP regen per tick is not very useful once you have Torpor. To be honest I rarely cast Regrowth on myself, and I have no trouble finishing fights. I see no significant difference in the time it takes to finish a fight when having Regrowth on vs. not having it on. That means I am not missing the +28HP Regen from Fungi Tunic + Regrowth.

[ArbiterBlixen]

Yes, I have a torp shaman. The point isn't whether you'll notice the fungi regen after you have torp. The point is over a 10 minute fight it provides more than a Vindi BP. All additional pieces of gear will provide very marginal benefit but, it all adds up in the end. Even your own math says Vindi bp will provide between 120-165hp in the first minute Vs 150hp from fungi. So you're saying at best a 15hp difference in the first minute is somehow more valuable than 1300hp over the course of the whole fight? And again, I'm not making the point that this will make or break the fight. I'm simply saying that Fungi will outperform Vindi BP in a non-resist fight.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Yes, I have a torp shaman. The point isn't whether you'll notice the fungi regen after you have torp. The point is over a 10 minute fight it provides more than a Vindi BP. All additional pieces of gear will provide very marginal benefit but, it all adds up in the end. Even your own math say Vindi bp will provide between 120-165hp in the first minute Vs 150hp from fungi. So you're saying at best a 15hp difference in the first minute is somehow more valuable than 1300hp over the course of the whole fight? And again, I'm not making the point that this will make or break the fight. I'm simply saying that Fungi will outperform Vindi BP in a non-resist fight.

My point is that the extra mitigation from AC/Resists is going to save you when it matters. Vindi BP soaks the same flat damage over the first minute, plus it has the bonus chance of mitigating extra damage via the AC/Resists.

Once the mob is slowed Fungi Tunic regeneration is irrelevant. Who cares about Fungi Tunic regeneration if it has 0 effect on the fight? Once the mob is slowed you won't die, regardless of what chest piece you have on. And after the fight the time it takes to recover is the same.

Vindi BP is superior because it is better at handling damage spikes (a mob getting a lucky double attack for max damage, or casting a dangerous spell). Fungi Tunic is too slow and too consistent when fighting tough mobs. Torpor is just too fast in terms of recovery.

[ArbiterBlixen]

In my original comment I specified fights not requiring resist, so I won't comment on that cause it's recognized.

In a pure hp fight Fungi is the better option no contest.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

In my original comment I specified fights not requiring resist, so I won't comment on that cause it's recognized.

In a pure hp fight Fungi is the better option no contest.

You're ignoring the AC I keep mentioning:) AC is used for melee fights last time I checked. Vindi BP has +24 AC over Fungi Tunic, and you are not losing 10 AGI. That AC could easily reduce the damage of a hit that would otherwise be max damage. Vindi BP is simply better at mitigating burst damage, which is the biggest threat to a Torpor Shaman.

[ArbiterBlixen]

You're ignoring the AC I keep mentioning:) AC is used for melee fights last time I checked. Vindi BP has +24 AC over Fungi Tunic, and you are not losing 10 AGI. That AC could easily reduce the damage of a hit that would otherwise be max damage. Vindi BP is simply better at mitigating burst damage, which is the biggest threat to a Torpor Shaman.

I'm not ignoring it, I just think 13hp regen is better.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

I'm not ignoring it, I just think 13hp regen is better.

I understand, and you are certainly free to think that. But math-wise the 13HP regen is generally not better.

[ArbiterBlixen]

I understand, and you are certainly free to think that. But math-wise the 13HP regen is generally not better.

What? even your own math says it's better. 120-165hp vs 150hp in the first minute and 1100-1300hp over the course of ten minutes (there, accounted for ac).

[DeathsSilkyMist]

What? even your own math says it's better. 120-165hp vs 150hp in the first minute and 1100-1300hp over the course of ten minutes (there, accounted for ac).

My math does not say that. You are saying that to try and win.

1300HP over 10 minutes is basically irrelevant.

Vindi BP can easily mitigate more damage than Fungi Tunic in a short period of time, such as 30 seconds. This kind of mitigation is what a Torpor Shaman cares about. They do not care about 1300HP over 10 minutes. Why? Because 1300HP over 10 minutes is 1 Torpor.

[Danth]

I'm with Shamwowi on this one.

~130 HP isn't even the full damage range of a single melee round at the level we're talking about. You're a solo shaman, you pull something that hits for 250's, doubles, you need to soak that until you can malo then get a slow to land, which might not be on the first cast. In no world is the fungus tunic going to be better than the vindicator BP in that environment, even ignoring the resists on the vindicator BP. All that really matters is what happens in the first 10-30 seconds because by that point either you got slow on or you're capping/feigning/dead, maybe stretch it to a minute or so if you're chugging wort pots like they're candy.

Not everyone does that type of stuff; in fact, most don't. The fungus tunic enjoys its legendary reputation because it's so strong for grinding weak experience fodder. If a player's world is limited to bottom feeding karnor trash or sebilis NG or being carried to greatness in 100+ man zerg raids then the fungus tunic is probably better. The fungus tunic scales inversely; since its effect is fixed it always gets better as content gets easier.

Danth

[bomaroast]

Fungi unless you're killing dragons.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Fungi unless you're killing dragons.

Incorrect. Vindi BP for everything unless you are kiting something like an Ice Burrower (monsters that cannot summon and cannot cast spells). Sadly this is fairly rare, and I wouldn't advise kiting an Ice Burrower as a Shaman, it takes way too long. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5fsvt1xfuqY this is me kiting an Ice Burrower for an hour.

[Danth]

I still marvel you had the patience to actually DO that, even if just once. They're slow enough even in a duo.

[bomaroast]

Here, fixed. Fungi unless you're killing dragons or soloing SG water elementals.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

I still marvel you had the patience to actually DO that, even if just once. They're slow enough even in a duo.

LOL I haven't done it since. It was fun to record the video, to satiate my curiosity. But I would never do it normally:) You can make way more money in an hour doing other things.

Here, fixed. Fungi unless you're killing dragons or soloing SG water elementals.

Still incorrect. Vindi BP is better than Fungi Tunic on a Torpor Shaman.

[Allishia]

Just be like Tussek and fight with no BP on /nod

[greenspectre]

Still incorrect. Vindi BP is better than Fungi Tunic on a Torpor Shaman.

I have to third this, behind Danth. Hard content means you're going to want that extra AC to avoid damage spikes and increase the chance you live long enough to land slow (IE: Cliff Golems, WW Dragons). Easy content is where you think the fungi would get extra points, but the fact remains that Torpor is still so little mana and fills up so much of your life that it's still not worth it.

Example- lets say you're in KC doing something less intense than dragons. I dunno, you have a monk alt and want your Pawbuster or something. Drolvarg Bodyguards are gonna take chunks out of your life as you set up slows and roots as needed, so you'd think the Fungi helps there, but the increased AC from Vindi BP means you have a greater chance to avoid hits and stuns (insert argument for ogre FSI as applicable) and therefore spell interrupts. That's way more important than your regen over time, because landing Torpor is more essential to staying alive.

If you're doing anything easier than a situation like that (Frenzy in Guk for example) then your chest piece is irrelevant anyways. You could just as easily not wear a chest because Torpor will absorb it all. Therefore Vindi beats fungi at all times that matter.

[ArbiterBlixen]

Kind of seeing a trend of more modestly geared shamans defending the vindi bp. Perhaps that +100 max hp is making more of a difference at that range.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Kind of seeing a trend of more modestly geared shamans defending the vindi bp. Perhaps that +100 max hp is making more of a difference at that range.

I have seen the opposite. The better gear you get, the less likely you are to use Fungi Tunic. Generally speaking the only time I see a Torpor Shaman rocking a Fungi Tunic is when they have recently acquired Torpor. They are probably still in their level 59 gear.

[ArbiterBlixen]

I have seen the opposite. The better gear you get, the less likely you are to use Fungi Tunic. Generally speaking the only time I see a Torpor Shaman rocking a Fungi Tunic is when they have recently acquired Torpor. They are probably still in their level 59 gear.

I was referring to this thread, the 1900-2200hp shamans.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

I was referring to this thread, the 1900-2200hp shamans.

I'd be surprised if you thought I was under geared. You can look at my signature.

[ArbiterBlixen]

I'd be surprised if you thought I was under geared. You can look at my signature.

I saw it.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

I saw it.

So who are you referring to?

[ArbiterBlixen]

So who are you referring to?

You, Danth, and greenspectre

[DeathsSilkyMist]

You, Danth, and greenspectre

You have lost all credibility if you think mid-teir Velious raid gear is "undergeared". Most Shamans are not at that level. I am not bragging at all, you simply do not understand gearing on P99.

Logically you aren't even making sense. If your the type of player that believes max HP > all, you would take a 100HP item over Fungi Tunic any day of the week.

[ArbiterBlixen]

You have lost all credibility if you think mid-teir Velious raid gear is "undergeared". Most Shamans are not at that level. I am not bragging at all, you simply do not understand gearing on P99.

Logically you aren't even making sense. If your the type of player that believes max HP > all, you would take a 100HP item over Fungi Tunic any day of the week.

No it’s like Danth says, scaling is a factor. 100hp on a 2k hp toon makes a bigger difference than someone with a lot more hp.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

No it’s like Danth says, scaling is a factor. 100hp on a 2k hp toon makes a bigger difference than someone with a lot more hp.

You do realize Shamans have a lower health pool than other classes, right? I have 2.6k HP self buffed, with 255 STA. To get 3k HP self buffed, I would need 4 additional 100HP items. That would be a lot of DKP to get 4 100HP items. I could put on some non-raid gear to boost my HP, but then I would lose a lot of AC, which matters in the types of fights we are discussing.

[ArbiterBlixen]

You do realize Shamans have a lower health pool than other classes, right?

Yes, I main a shaman.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Yes, I main a shaman.

Then you would know what "modest" gear is. You seem to be thinking like a low level Shaman, where max HP and regen is all you need to stack.

[ArbiterBlixen]

Then you would know what "modest" gear is. You seem to be thinking like a low level Shaman, where max HP and regen is all you need to stack.

I’d trade 6 100hp items for 6 fungal regrowth effects. Wouldn’t think twice.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

I’d trade 6 100hp items for 6 fungal regrowth effects. Wouldn’t think twice.

If you could wear 10 Fungi Tunics, then yeah I would agree with you. +150HP regen is 50% of a Torpor. The problem is you can only get +15 regen from worn items in total, including Fungi Tunic. +15 regen is only improving your total regeneration by 5% when you are using Torpor. It just isn't doing much.

[ArbiterBlixen]

If you could wear 10 Fungi Tunics, then yeah I would agree with you. +150HP regen is 50% of a Torpor. The problem is you can only get +15 regen from worn items in total, including Fungi Tunic. +15 regen is only improving your total regeneration by 5% when you are using Torpor. It just isn't doing much.

Tbh, I’d still make the trade off on smaller scales. 6.67hp 1.6ac vs. 1hp regen. I’d take the regen.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Tbh, I’d still make the trade off on smaller scales. 6.67hp 1.6ac vs. 1hp regen. I’d take the regen.

As I said before, you are free to play however you want. That doesn't mean your method of play is objectively superior.

https://youtu.be/4Rzw3wLWEsM?t=2060 Take a look at this video of me pulling King Tranix with a full room of Giants. I lost 80% of my HP in 30 seconds trying to get everything CC'ed. I am not trying to claim this is a good video either, I made far too many mistakes.

In 30 seconds Fungi Tunic would have saved me 75HP, which is a paltry 3% of my total pool, and less HP than the +100HP from Vindi BP. Fungi Tunic would have been worthless here, because the extra AC from Vindi BP could easily mitigate more than 3% of my total pool, depending on luck.

[ArbiterBlixen]

As I said before, you are free to play however you want. That doesn't mean your method of play is objectively superior.

https://youtu.be/4Rzw3wLWEsM?t=2060 Take a look at this video of me pulling King Tranix with a full room of Giants. I lost 80% of my HP in 30 seconds trying to get everything CC'ed. I am not trying to claim this is a good video either, I made far too many mistakes.

In 30 seconds Fungi Tunic would have saved me 75HP, which is a paltry 3% of my total pool, and less HP than the +100HP from Vindi BP. Fungi Tunic would have been worthless here, because the extra AC from Vindi BP could easily mitigate more than 3% of my total pool, depending on luck.

You say fungi would have been worthless here. But so was your vindi BP. Unless you’re suggesting it provided 20% hp worth of mitigation? You would have survived bare chested.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

You say fungi would have been worthless here. But so was your vindi BP. Unless you’re suggesting it provided 20% hp worth of mitigation? You would have survived bare chested.

AC is going to have a better shot of mitigating damage than Fungi Tunic. Fungi Tunic is 75HP no matter what. These giants have a damage range of around 28 to 126. AC could easily mitigate 500 damage if it reduced 5 attacks from 126 to 28. And that is indeed 20% of my total HP. I am not tanking AoW, who basically ignores AC for all intents and purposes.

The problem is Fungi Tunic is simply too consistent when you have Torpor. Not only was the max HP from Vindi BP still more than the regen at 30 seconds, but the extra AC could have easily mitigated hundreds of damage.

[greenspectre]

but the extra AC could have easily mitigated hundreds of damage.

Not to mention if the AC increase means you dodge even ONE hit that would have otherwise interrupted a torpor, it literally saved your life. I know channeling is pretty reliable on this server (compared to TAKP oh lord is it ever) but I'd think the most important thing in fights like these is *successfully casting torpor*. This is less of a concern for ogres but it's still possible to be interrupted even with FSI. Granted it's impossible to ever know which hits you avoided strictly due to the AC difference between a Fungi and a Vindi BP, but still.

Seems like somebody could do a video running some trials of fungi vs vindi during an encounter to see what their HP was once stable and compare?

[loramin]

Seems like somebody could do a video running some trials of fungi vs vindi during an encounter to see what their HP was once stable and compare?

Honestly, in the grand scheme of things the difference between the two is so minute that you could probably do fifty test runs and still see no difference between the two tunics.

Ultimately over long periods of time the fungi is better, and for shorter periods (eg. raid fights) the Vindi BP is clearly better ... but you could compare a Vindi BP Shaman, to a Fungi Shaman, to a Nekid (in their chest slot) Shaman, and be hard pressed to see a difference for 99% of fights.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Honestly, in the grand scheme of things the difference between the two is so minute that you could probably do fifty test runs and still see no difference between the two tunics.

Ultimately over long periods of time the fungi is better, and for shorter periods (eg. raid fights) the Vindi BP is clearly better ... but you could compare a Vindi BP Shaman, to a Fungi Shaman, to a Nekid (in their chest slot) Shaman, and be hard pressed to see a difference for 99% of fights.

OP is asking about which Chest piece is better, not whether or not a chest piece is required. I agree with you that Torpor is so good you don't need top of the line gear for most situations, but loot is a primary mechanic in Everquest, and it does help you win fights.

For a Torpor Shaman there is no "long periods of time". https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HjZxMlJSCDc A Torpor Shaman can go from low HP and MP to full HP and MP in 3 minutes. You never need to be ticking regen between fights.

And for shorter periods of time you are generally talking about fights lasting no longer than 10 minutes, which means Fungi Tunic is giving you 1500HP at best over the 10 minutes, which is simply one Torpor. Generally speaking 1 Torpor (200 mana) would not have made a difference. The extra AC/HP/Resists from Vindi BP could make a difference in terms of reducing damage spikes.

If you have Fungi Tunic and Vindi BP, you can obviously use them as you wish. But I wouldn't recommend buying a Fungi Tunic if you already have a Vindi BP, you simply won't use it much. That Fungi Tunic would be better suited on an alt. And if you don't have Vindi BP, I would recommend getting it over just sticking with Fungi Tunic, as it is simply better.

[loramin]

For a Torpor Shaman there is no "long periods of time". https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HjZxMlJSCDc A Torpor Shaman can go from low HP and MP to full HP and MP in 3 minutes. You never need to be ticking regen between fights.

This isn't true at all. Let's say you are farming safety XP: you're going to be playing for an extended period of time. The extra stats from Vindi BP aren't going to help you kill those XP mobs meaningfully faster ... but wearing your Fungi while you do it will save you a few Torpor casts over the entire XP session.

Again, it's not going to make a huge (or even medium-sized) difference either way, but objectively-speaking wearing the Fungi and having to cast Torpor less will be better in that case.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

This isn't true at all. Let's say you are farming safety XP: you're going to be playing for an extended period of time. The extra stats from Vindi BP aren't going to help you kill those XP mobs meaningfully faster ... but wearing your Fungi while you do it will save you a few Torpor casts over the entire XP session.

Again, it's not going to make a huge (or even medium-sized) difference either way, but objectively-speaking wearing the Fungi and having to cast Torpor less will be better in that case.

In that case its irrelevant what you are wearing, and saving one minute on torpor at then end of the session isn't going to matter. So just stick with the Vindi BP and give your fungi to an alt:)

[Stroboo]

for almost all grp content Fungi is better, if you are fighting dragons' Vindi for sure. the only reason to wear a velious BP is for the clickie (which is amazing) or fashion. female iksar PoG chest fantastic fashion fwiw.

Solo'n cliff golems i would use fungi vs vindi bp but other shaman solo targets, ww dragons for instance, i'd use vindi.

reality though, the difference is very small with respect to the power of torpor

[Danth]

So just stick with the Vindi BP and give your fungi to an alt:)

I was going to write something similar but you got there first. I see where Arbiter and Loramin are coming from in the sense that you can reach a point where your gear gives you enough durability and room for error to feel comfortable for the content you do and the only effect you notice anymore is maybe casting a little bit fewer heals here and there. They aren't wrong in that sense and nobody ever hurt himself by having a fungus tunic handy. However in most cases by the time someone reaches that point, if they have a fungus tunic at all it'll already be transferred to a melee alt where it can do some real good. If a player keeps it on his shaman, yeah, use it where appropriate if inclined. As the content gets easier (which includes out-gearing stuff) the worn regen gets better, even if "better" is reduced simply to a slight effort reduction as opposed to any difference in odds of success.

It matters so little in practice that the wife doesn't have a regen BP on her shaman even though at no point in the past 5+ years (and more) have we not had enough money to buy one if she wanted it. This is very much an academic discussion at this point, but I appreciate a level discussion about a shared hobby versus the all-too-frequent forum flame-fests.

Granted it's impossible to ever know which hits you avoided strictly due to the AC difference between a Fungi and a Vindi BP, but still.

In theory you should avoid close to zero hits because worn AC shouldn't be affecting avoidance. Certainly it won't affect dodge. The additional AC should be reducing the average damage roll on successful hits, not the raw chance to hit in the first place. The -10 agility on the fungus could affect hit chance, slightly, so I call it close to zero instead of zero, although the effect from 10 agility is close enough to zero that particular point is largely moot. Dodge should work based on the character's dodge skill only. Raw miss chance works from a combination of things like defense skill, agility, etc. The caveat here is as always: We don't actually know whether P99's mechanics in this sense fully mimic EQ-Live, so I can only discuss how it presumably works, not necessarily how it really does.

Danth

[greenspectre]

Artists depiction of shaman optimization arguments.

[greenspectre]

In theory you should avoid close to zero hits because worn AC shouldn't be affecting avoidance. Certainly it won't affect dodge. The additional AC should be reducing the average damage roll on successful hits, not the raw chance to hit in the first place. The -10 agility on the fungus could affect hit chance, slightly, so I call it close to zero instead of zero, although the effect from 10 agility is close enough to zero that particular point is largely moot. Dodge should work based on the character's dodge skill only. Raw miss chance works from a combination of things like defense skill, agility, etc. The caveat here is as always: We don't actually know whether P99's mechanics in this sense fully mimic EQ-Live, so I can only discuss how it presumably works, not necessarily how it really does.

Danth

This one I did not know. I had always thought AC both decreased damage taken and increased chances of avoiding a hit altogether. The more you know!

[Danth]

This one I did not know. I had always thought AC both decreased damage taken and increased chances of avoiding a hit altogether. The more you know!

It does in the sense that your AC score you see when you open your inventory does include all of that. Just it's a combined value; your mitigation AC and avoidance AC come from different sources. I cannot stress enough that the above assumes P99's AC system works like original EQ's did, which I have my own doubts about. In practice, I think it's safe to say "more is better" although we can debate how much more it takes to be X amount better.

[greenspectre]

It does in the sense that your AC score you see when you open your inventory does include all of that. Just it's a combined value; your mitigation AC and avoidance AC come from different sources. I cannot stress enough that the above assumes P99's AC system works like original EQ's did, which I have my own doubts about. In practice, I think it's safe to say "more is better" although we can debate how much more it takes to be X amount better.

Yeah I'm curious myself. I know if I load a level 1 with 100ac worth of worn armor, he is going to get missed a lot more by large rats than he would if naked, so I wonder why that is.

[ArbiterBlixen]

Yes, Danth is absolutely correct here.

Here is a parse a P99 player by the name of Bugen did on a level 59 Golem in Velketor's Labyrinth. Defended is the sum of all the defensive skills. As you can see as his ac went down, there was no effect on the rate his defensive skills activated.

[Danth]

Yeah I'm curious myself. I know if I load a level 1 with 100ac worth of worn armor, he is going to get missed a lot more by large rats than he would if naked, so I wonder why that is.

I'll post "how it should work" when appropriate, but in practice I assume P99's AC system is almost wholly custom. The parts of it we definitely know about (shield overcap AC, clothies getting high returns, etc) are indeed either custom or at least out-of-era. So I return to, "more is better" since all parsing done at least confirms the general strength of the stat since the 2015 revamp.