AC/Level Mitigation & Backstabs

[Hasbinbad]

The following text is excerpted from the patch notes thread. I thought it was on topic there, but that it should be posted here as well. First though, I would like to thank you guys for working on getting things right. It really seems like AC makes a difference these days, and that some real work has been done on mitigation. This post is not a gripe, I will work with anything that is put in front of me, and be fucking happy to have it. Also this is specific to backstabs. I feel that normal hits are tuned almost spot on at this point, maybe even still a bit too high across the board, but WAY better than it was. So:

---
I think the problem with backstab is that it is being mitigated by AC and/or level too much. I don't have any parse evidence for this yet, but after spending 2-3 hours killing shit and getting maybe 3 or 4 >340 backstabs total during that time, I found myself in WC, and backstabbed a Kodiak.. Double backstab for 280/360.

This leads me to believe that backstab damage range is working properly but that it is being mitigated as per normal hits, which my experience in live leads me to believe is wrong. On live during kunark, you could pretty much guarantee a given range (just for the sake of argument, we'll call it 1/2-3/4 of your max backstab when fighting blues/whites/yellows/reds) on a given strength of mobs, except once in a while you would get a minimum backstab, giving you a sadface, and once in a while you would get a max hit, giving you a happy face.

If your min backstab was 80 and your max was 450, it would look something like this on live during kunark:
You backstab Innoruuk for 260 points of damage!
You backstab Innoruuk for 310 points of damage!
You backstab Innoruuk for 275 points of damage!
You backstab Innoruuk for 365 points of damage!
You backstab Innoruuk for 80 points of damage!
You backstab Innoruuk for 290 points of damage!
You backstab Innoruuk for 350 points of damage!
You backstab Innoruuk for 450 points of damage!
You backstab Innoruuk for 280 points of damage!
You backstab Innoruuk for 260 points of damage!
You backstab Innoruuk for 80 points of damage!
You backstab Innoruuk for 400 points of damage!

Right now, if your min/max were the same, you would see something more like this:
You backstab Innoruuk for 80 points of damage!
You backstab Innoruuk for 80 points of damage!
You backstab Innoruuk for 80 points of damage!
You backstab Innoruuk for 320 points of damage!
You backstab Innoruuk for 80 points of damage!
You backstab Innoruuk for 210 points of damage!
You backstab Innoruuk for 80 points of damage!
You backstab Innoruuk for 80 points of damage!
You backstab Innoruuk for 80 points of damage!

Of course I have absolutely no evidence for this, no old parses, no screenshots.. But this is pretty much how it was based on empirical observation.

So it is my hypothesis that backstab should not mitigated as per normal hits by level and/or AC. It either ignores AC altogether and is based on your hit rolls, or has some form of an armor-piercing type function.. Dunno what you guys can do with that.
---

So yeah. I don't have any kind of evidence for this, but I'm hoping to drum up some empirical support for these numbers.. They are all completely made up, but I was trying to capture the "feel" of how the flow of a fight would go with backstabs, relative to your min/max backstab.

[Aadill]

I typed words in google and pressed butan... found this little gem:

http://teir-dal.tripod.com/id47.html


2.18. How is backstab damage calculated?

Nothing is official, but the general belief is that at low levels, it works something like this: Assuming that you are using a weapon deemed 'acceptable' for your level (i.e. not too powerful [some players report getting very high level weapons at lower levels and not getting the damage they were supposed to until they leveled some more]), max damage is calculated as: (DMG * 2) + 1 Backstab simply multiplies this by a constant factor. We approximate this factor to be:

(BACKSTAB_SKILL / 25)

So a maxed level 10 rogue has a backstab multiplier of (55 / 25) = 2.2x. Assuming he's using a giant snake fang (DMG 5, so max damage (5 * 2) + 1 = 11), his level 10 max backstab will be (11 * 2.2x) = 24. Backstab damage caps at 25 * DMG at level 50. Towards level 20, these numbers skew. Backstab seems to top out for a time, and then go up rapidly in the higher 20s. Strength effects how often you hit for max damage, so be sure to have STR enhancing equip and/or STR buffs on you as often as possible.

At 51st, the new minimum backstab damage is Level*3/2, rounded down. 76 is the least you will hit for at 51st, and it goes up. At 60th, the minimum backstab is Level*2 (120).

This doesn't specifically say anything about AC mitigation but I'm looking for stuff.


From this source (talking about very recent expansions)
http://www.thesafehouse.org/forums/showthread.php?t=36486

That's the maximum hit of course. Minimum hit (assuming sufficiently high damage on weapon) follows a different formula, and the whole slew of hits come from a mixture of damage intervals (the 1 to 20 roll that all NPCs get) and a PC specific roll between 1.00 and 3.55 in 0.01 intervals. The rolls get multiplied together and due to a non-uniform distribution (eg rolls of 20 maybe very common when you have high atk vs low AC on a mob) in both DI and PCroll values they show up as a series of larger and smaller spikes on the damage frequency charts.

There is still indication that the melee code follows the same rolls as we see everywhere even on P99. Maybe the AC values are the cause?

[h0tr0d (shaere)]

Yes AC doesn't work classic.

And I am assuming you mean the mitigation should be different from the sides and back then the front?

It isn't just your backstab that is affected.

[kanras]

This is all from the same log file that I posted in the patch notes. (late 2000)

http://i54.tinypic.com/29byf48.png

All of the BS hits in the whole log: http://pastebin.com/vRbiKkRL

Min hits only: http://pastebin.com/7zh355ak

56 out of 202 (27.7%) hits were for the min w/ Ragebringer against a high AC mob.

[Hasbinbad]

This is all from the same log file that I posted in the patch notes. (late 2000)

http://i54.tinypic.com/29byf48.png

All of the BS hits in the whole log: http://pastebin.com/vRbiKkRL

Min hits only: http://pastebin.com/7zh355ak

56 out of 202 (27.7%) hits were for the min w/ Ragebringer against a high AC mob.
Well that seems rather a lot (near 30% minimum), but what is the AC of the thifling focuser? Are mobs on THIS server with that high ac?

I think that if the thifling focuser has a higher ac compared to group/raid mobs on this server, then what you posted pretty much backs up what I said..

As of NOW, I would think that the min hits are around 50% of the time, and that is on groupable mobs, which should have relatively lower ac to raid mobs, which in turn should have relatively lower ac to a thifling focuser (PoG mob with 800,000-1,000,000 hps).

Sooo.. Any love coming from this post Mr. Kanras?

[Hasbinbad]

I'd be willing to test this somewhere if you want help to tune the mechanics..

[kanras]

I got:
24.2% min BS w/ Ragebringer against a level 50 krup knight. (generic one group mob)
28.8% min BS w/ Ragebringer against a thifling focuser. (same mob as most of Tigole fight).

So no, I'm pretty happy where it's at.

[dojo420]

my parse from a day at crypt in sebilis:

http://i.imgur.com/xzMVn.jpg

1578 total
644 for min dmg (120)
~41% hit for min dmg
@lvl 60 with 10 dmg piercer (Sebilite Croaking Dirk) and 255 str

[Treats]

Seems like the backstab skill is missing the magic number. Looking at the graph of Tigole's damage you have three main numbers - Minimum damage (120), Magic Number (194), and Max damage(449).

Not entirely sure if this is the calculation that is still used here for the backstab formula, it could be different.

Maximum Damage Calculation:

((Offense or Weap skill) + Str) / 100 * Weap Dmg * (2 + (Backstab skill * .02)

(252 + 209) / 100 * 15 * (2 + (225 * .02) = 449.475

From that graph you can gauge his strength to be 209 at the time if this is correct for Max damage.

Calculating for his Magic Number damage (194) the best I could come up with was this:

Weap Dmg * (2 + (Backstab skill * .02) * 2

15 * (2 + (225 * .02) * 2 = 195 (194 - something in the forumla isn't correct)


Another note here on hit distribution. Different classes have different percentages that all range between the three main numbers - Minimum damage, Magic Number, and Maximum damage. What was done back then was to use this for each one.

These are just made up percentages, they are not correct. For example, say you have a Monk that is level 60 and fighting a low dark blue (46). His hit distribution may look something like this:

30% Min, 60% Magic Number, 10% Max

Replace that dark blue mob with Trakanon and you would have an entirely different distribution:

75% Min, 20% Magic Number, 5% Max

Different classes have different spreads representing the damage tables also.

Monk vs Dark Blue mob (46)

30% Min, 60% Magic, 10% Max

Ranger vs Dark Blue mob (46)

45% Min, 55% Magic, 5% Max

Several factors affect these calculations - Player level, Player class, Attack, Mob Level, Mob AC etc.

[Supaskillz]

I will save some parses this week, but I know I am getting BS for minimum far more than 20%

[Dravingar]

This graph was for maybe 2-3 hours down at Juggs/reets. Shows 380ish backstabs total, which puts it at 50% or so. This was with a SCD at 60 with 250+ ish str.

Edit : Also there was me dropping duelist in there at one point on Tolajump/Prot.

[Baxter]

Here is some data of my escapades at Sebilis king and PoH with a 10 damage SCD. None of these mobs have particularly high AC so I'm disappointed with the results. There were no discs used(duelist lasting 15 seconds?). This data covers 80 fights(40 from king, 40 from PoH).

http://i1089.photobucket.com/albums/i355/fuso2345/graph1.jpg

354 successful backstabs, 150 of which were for a minimum of 120. Thats just over 42% of backstabs being for minimum. This data doesn't jive with what Kanras is saying.

Our "magic number" seems to be 130. To me this number seems very low to be our magic number. I wasn't a rogue on live so I cant say if this is correct or not. My gut feeling says it can't be right because its only 10 more than minimum.

Whats really depressing to me is if you add all backstabs up that land between 120 and 130. You get a total of 197 backstabs out of 354 for a total of 56% of all my backstabs landing between 120-130. Thats just depressing, it cant be right.

[aresprophet]

This thread is really making me wish I remembered how to use R because I could figure out the formula the server is using from this parse data.

I note that the magic number is (apparently) min + weapon damage, which means that the multiplier appears to only be affecting weapon damage and also appears to be heavily influenced by AC, perhaps more than it should. If the 1.00 to 3.55 range is correct, AC is too heavily weighted in the calculation of that PC-specific modifier.

This thread plus my suspicion that certain other facets of the melee attack system on this server as miscalculated makes me really want to get back into using R and organize a project to figure out melee variables.

[Shiftin]

Are these parses showing a 120 minimum from this week or before the last patch? My max at 59 is 88 now. If there's a 32 point gap betweeen minimums for 1 level there's a big formula screw up.

[Aadill]

From my post at the top (first response):

At 51st, the new minimum backstab damage is Level*3/2, rounded down. 76 is the least you will hit for at 51st, and it goes up. At 60th, the minimum backstab is Level*2 (120).

[Baxter]

120 is still the minimum at 60. That is a rather large jump between levels if the minimum at 59 is 88.

[dojo420]

This week. but a minimum of 88 dmg at lvl 59 seems right according to:
At 51st, the new minimum backstab damage is Level*3/2, rounded down. 76 is the least you will hit for at 51st, and it goes up. At 60th, the minimum backstab is Level*2 (120).
source (http://teir-dal.tripod.com/id47.html)

[Shiftin]

I assumed "it goes up" there implies that the ratio slowly increases from level*1.5 to level*2 through the 50s, ie. at level 55 your max BS should be level*1.75.

[Aadill]

Check yo' pronouns.

Or the dude writing that should check his~

[Shiftin]

While we're at it, duelist is not raising the minimum damage value for backstabs when activated. Does anyone know if this is correct? I hit a duelist BS yesterday for 88 and facepalmed.

[Aadill]

While we're at it, duelist is not raising the minimum damage value for backstabs when activated. Does anyone know if this is correct? I hit a duelist BS yesterday for 88 and facepalmed.

Actually I think even non disciplines are having issues with that. I've had some archery shots where a double dmg hit would be for 19 while a normal minimum was 19. It might be a widespread issue of when the calculations of multiplying base damage are being made. Sounds like a separate bug report we can both contribute on~

[Baxter]

Our "magic number" seems to be 130. To me this number seems very low to be our magic number. I wasn't a rogue on live so I cant say if this is correct or not. My gut feeling says it can't be right because its only 10 more than minimum.

I should have paid closer attention to the data Kanras posted earlier on the first page. The magic number in his logs is 194 and not 130 like it is now.

[Treats]

Weapon damage will increase your Max hit and Magic Number by a lot.

60 Rogue
225 Backstab
200 Strength

10 DMG Piercer - (130) Magic Number, (293) Max hit
11 DMG Piercer - (143) Magic Number, (323) Max hit
12 DMG Piercer - (156) Magic Number, (352) Max hit
13 DMG Piercer - (169) Magic Number, (381) Max hit
14 DMG Piercer - (182) Magic Number, (411) Max hit
15 DMG Piercer - (195) Magic Number, (440) Max hit

[Aadill]

So wait is all of this concerning people with 10 dmg daggers expecting much above the 120 dmg min at 60?

What would a level 60 person with a 15 dmg backstabber find?

Basically, anyone doing testing with a 10 dmg dagger will find what Baxter found. Anyone doing testing with a 15 dmg dagger will find what Kanras found and both seem correct because for the former magic and minimum are so close and for the latter a much more even spread is available simply due to the weapon. AC may still be a factor but the end-all-be-all weapon for rogues opens up a whole new can o' whoopass, as an epic should, as evidenced by a much larger magic number/max damage value.

Looks like someone with a crystalline spear/efreeti war spear needs to do some testing because the numbers make more sense as of right now.

[Shiftin]

Every raiding rogue who could find one switched to a SCD over rapier or crys spear when we stopped hitting anywhere near maximum with any regularity and it sadly became more efficient to just hit for the minimum as fast as we could. That's why all of the parses are with SCD (10 damage weapons). It's not practical to test scaling of the formula with a 15 Dam weapon because the only one that exists right now is efreeti war spear and at 40 delay that's pretty painful to sit though.

I'm still trying to not be 59 anymore so i'm not going to hose my groups testing crappy weapons in exp groups (with the current implementation at least).

edit: no, i don't think anyone is expecting "more than 120". That is the correct minimum for backstab with a 10 dam pierecer as best as we can tell. The issue is that we hit for exactly the minimum entirely too much. Kanras said he expected it to be similar to the tigole parse he has, and we're currently hitting for minimum far more often than that.

[Aadill]

Here's a question: Is there a difference in ATK large enough between Kanras and any of the rogues here to cause some discrepancies in the RNG? It's at least 40 off due to Ragebringer.

*PS I never played a rogue I'm just thinking about possibilities

[azeth]

This is frustrating knowing, like I assume most people who played a rogue in the day know, that @ lvl 60 with 15 damage your max backstab is 556 (fact!)

im wondering if thorough investigation of the safehouse archive is in order.

[Supaskillz]

http://img34.imageshack.us/img34/9468/backstabw.png (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/34/backstabw.png/)


tooo much 120

[Supaskillz]

that is hard to read and doesn't show misses. 59% backstab attempts in sample were either a miss or min hit, and less than 1% for max.

[Rhambuk]

anyone notice a change in todays patch, doesnt seem to much difference for me. Lots of misses and min hits

[Supaskillz]

not fixed

[Arkyani]

Agreed. Definitely not fixed. I dont even bother using my crystalline spear any more since I'm pretty much going to backstab for minimum damage most of the time anyway. I was so excited when Rogean broadcasted that backstab was fixed along with mage pet damage, but according to the patch they didnt even touch it.

For a class that gets most of its damage through a single skill, for that one skill to be horribly off is quite depressing.

[dojo420]

Post patch data from sebilis crypt:
420 of 962 (~44%) backstabs for minimum damage (120)
110 of 962 (~11%) backstabs for "magic number" (128).

still using 10 dmg piercer with 255 str at level 60. for some reason the "magic number" went from 130 to 128.

http://i.imgur.com/wKrd5.jpg

I have no clue though if it is supposed to be different. Keep in mind this was vs xp mobs though with what i'd imagine to be low ac.

[Baxter]

Here are some more post patch results. All this is from Seb and includes everything from d1 to juggs. Level 60 using 10 damage piercer. I did use duelist a few times but that shouldn't skew the results too much.

http://i1089.photobucket.com/albums/i355/fuso2345/graph2-1.png

I know its hard to see.

Out of 1156 backstabs 46.3%(535) were hit for minimum damage.
Only 9.8% were for the magic number of 128.

Definitely too many minimum hits considering the majority of this data is from D1 with a lot of LB mobs.

[Hasbinbad]

even more telling is the fact that kanras posted 27% minimums against a "high ac mob" as he put it.. none of the mobs we face right now have nearly as high ac as that mob..

seems like griefing, feels classic

[Dazen]

Who ever added that QQing Tag clearly did not play a rogue on live nor plays one now. Our backstabs are screwed !

[Rhambuk]

What parsers do you all use btw?

[Dravingar]

Looks like everyone is using Gamparse.

[Hasbinbad]

http://catmacros.files.wordpress.com/2009/07/cat-halp-1-1.jpg?w=347&h=364

[Murphy]

http://catmacros.files.wordpress.com/2009/07/cat-halp-1-1.jpg?w=347&h=364

[Shiftin]

At 51st, the new minimum backstab damage is Level*3/2, rounded down. 76 is the least you will hit for at 51st, and it goes up. At 60th, the minimum backstab is Level*2 (120).



This is how minimum backstab damage should look per a common sense interpretation of the above.

Level ratio damage Rounded Down
51__ 1.5__ 76.5__ 76
52__ 1.55_ 80.6__ 80
53__ 1.6__ 84.8__ 84
54__ 1.65_ 89.1__ 89
55__ 1.7__ 93.5__ 93
56__ 1.75_ 98.0__ 98
57__ 1.8__ 102.6_ 102
58__ 1.85_ 107.3_ 107
59__ 1.9__ 112.1_ 112
60__ 2____ 120.0_ 120

Currently it looks like this
Level ratio damage Rounded Down
51__ 1.5__ 76.5... 76
52__ 1.5__ 78... 78
53__ 1.5__ 79.5... 79
54__ 1.5__ 81... 81
55__ 1.5__ 82.5... 82
56__ 1.5__ 84... 84
57__ 1.5__ 85.5... 85
58__ 1.5__ 87... 87
59__ 1.5__ 88.5... 88
60__ 2___ 120... 120

Respectfully, the current implementation of the formula is silly. I hope the table is self explanatory as to why. You gain almost 3 times the minimum backstab damage for going from 59-60 as you do from 51-59 combined. Combined with the fact that rogues are backstabbing for minimum entirely too much, there is a hilarious gap between 59 and 60.

[Aadill]

Your "common sense" interpretation is actually an interpolation of that statement. It doesn't say that it is Level * (3/2) + 0.05n where n is the # of levels above 51. It says the minimum damage goes up, which makes sense because Level changes in the Level * (3/2) calculation.

I'm not disagreeing that there is a large gap between 59 and 60, but your "common sense interpretation" has nothing to back it up except your own discontent. That ain't no research. You edited your post so I'll edit mine: I want to say that Level 60 is a pretty big deal. Wizards get Sunstrike, Monks get Triple Attack, Shamans get Torpor. It's a pretty powerful level. There should be something defining for your class upon reaching 60.

PS I am looking for info on it too but everything I found ONLY says Level * (3/2) until 60, which is what the devs implemented. That's the best they can and should do unless someone comes up with something. As far as Backstabbing for minimum entirely too much, that's something that they should be focused on but can only work on if people give them something to look at. Provide more numbers.


You know, my biggest complaint is that weapon skill level seems to have a MASSIVE effect on how often you hit for more than minimum. As a ranger my skills are 15 points lower than pretty much everyone elses, so I do even WORSE dps on raid mobs than other classes simply because the melee formula seems so dependent on it. Every time I gain a level my DPS jumps a significant amount, all from 4 points of offense and weapon skills. I assume rogues are max offensive but maybe the dependency on offensive skills is too high and skewing everyone's memory of live? I'm just throwin that out there.

[Haul]

http://catmacros.files.wordpress.com/2009/07/cat-halp-1-1.jpg?w=347&h=364

Hahaha finally you contribute something funny. You're still a tool though-

[Shiftin]

Your "common sense" interpretation is actually an interpolation of that statement. It doesn't say that it is Level * (3/2) + 0.05n where n is the # of levels above 51. It says the minimum damage goes up, which makes sense because Level changes in the Level * (3/2) calculation.

I'm not disagreeing that there is a large gap between 59 and 60, but your "common sense interpretation" has nothing to back it up except your own discontent. That ain't no research.


My attempt at smoothing it out is absolutely just that, my best attempt based on how I read the sentence. We have a starting formula and an ending formula and all we have for inbetween is "it goes up". The method by which "It goes up" (gradually and scaled like most damage formulas in EQ or all at once) is unclear.

I've spent more than a few hours on the safehouse and archive.org trying to find any parses where we can derive minimum backstab at intermediary levels and can't find one. What is also notably absent, however, is people talking about the huge jump at 60 or how much their damage jumped at 60. If such a huge gap existed, it seems like someone would have posted about it somewhere or any of the rogues i've talked to would remember it. The "carrot" for rogues at 60 was assasinate, not a massive boost in DPS from a single level.

It's hard to get people to take the time to post in here, but I know hasbinbad and a few other actually leveled rogues through 51-60 during classic kunark and I'd appreciate hearing which interpretation of "it goes up" they feel is correct. I already know the answer from conversations with plenty of fellow rogues in game, but my word is no better than yours.
[/quote]


PS I am looking for info on it too but everything I found ONLY says Level * (3/2) until 60, which is what the devs implemented. That's the best they can and should do unless someone comes up with something.

If you have found something that uses this phrasing, please link it. The only evidence I've seen uses very different phrasing, which makes all the difference.


As far as Backstabbing for minimum entirely too much, that's something that they should be focused on but can only work on if people give them something to look at. Provide more numbers.

I'm not sure if you're serious here. Have you looked through the rest of the thread? Every rogue is parsing out at around 45% minimum damage backstabs. How many people need to post almost the exact same stats which directly contradict the goal kanras himself stated he was going for?

You know, my biggest complaint is that weapon skill level seems to have a MASSIVE effect on how often you hit for more than minimum. As a ranger my skills are 15 points lower than pretty much everyone elses, so I do even WORSE dps on raid mobs than other classes simply because the melee formula seems so dependent on it. Every time I gain a level my DPS jumps a significant amount, all from 4 points of offense and weapon skills. I assume rogues are max offensive but maybe the dependency on offensive skills is too high and skewing everyone's memory of live? I'm just throwin that out there.

I think there's a good chance you are on to something here.

[Aadill]

If you have found something that uses this phrasing, please link it. The only evidence I've seen uses very different phrasing, which makes all the difference.

Touche. My interpretation is that of at level 51 it is X and at level 60 it is Y. This, to me, means that the formula does not change. That may not necessarily be the case but without any information in between the assumption, without a formula to back it up, is that 52-59 offer no change in damage calculations until the marked change at level 60.



I'm not sure if you're serious here. Have you looked through the rest of the thread? Every rogue is parsing out at around 45% minimum damage backstabs. How many people need to post almost the exact same stats which directly contradict the goal kanras himself stated he was going for?


Dead serious. What I meant by provide more numbers is people need to get together and post their ATK, their skills (which should all be the same at level 60, but post them for posterity because Kanras may have created a char with the wrong skill levels), their STR, level, weapons, and the mobs they attack, then parse those logs. Parses against xxxx mob or yyyy camp with no information except "I hit for very little", even over an extended period of time, don't help as much as knowing the EXACT situation to replicate and test. If Kanras were to recreate Hasbinbad or Shiftin and test vs a thifling focuser or protector of growth, maybe he'd see something significantly different than using a lvl 60 rogue with a Ragebringer on the test server. I don't get how Kanras can be getting such significantly different results unless the players on P99 have extremely different stats or gear. So, recreate it to the best of the abilities of both the players and the devs. If anything Kanras should have Hasbinbad or yourself or Baxter or Tigole or anyone go over to the test server and do some parsing that way. Uthgaard and a few others did that a while back... no reason why it can't be done again.



I think there's a good chance you are on to something here.

I just pulled this out of my ass but I look forward to leveling just so my DPS goes up by a few points even though my gear hasn't changed much since level 50. I use the gobby earring as a serious buff because I worry my ATK, which can reach about 1200, isn't high enough and is the sole reason why my DPS is shit. In reality I'm starting to wonder if the skills are what's causing issues for melee.


I already know the answer from conversations with plenty of fellow rogues in game, but my word is no better than yours.

I am not a rogue, I never played a rogue, and I probably never will play a rogue. The devs took the same interpretation as I did and whether or not it's wrong I don't know, but there's no evidence to the contrary. There's no evidence for the "jump" either, so you're absolutely right. The only problem is there's no other way to interpret it without throwing in numbers no one has documented in a mathematical formula. Whether or not it's wrong the current implementation at least has some documented basis. If we find anything in logs that would be super useful, but you'd need a time appropriate log with a documented level. I'll be looking as well when I get off work~

[Aadill]

In a quick search:
http://www.thesafehouse.org/forums/showthread.php?t=6326

Just a Question. I thought that once you hit 51 the lowest backstab that was possible was 79 points of damage. Well I was in a LDoN group, and I backstabbed for 15 points of damage. Is that a bug, or did something happen that I'm not aware of?

This was LDoN based but they still had *about* the same damage cap as is expected here. That's level 51, though, which we already know.

Also, I do see the damage formula posted EVERYWHERE in the exact same phrasing so it was widely accepted as right (or widely copied wrong)

From here: http://www.thesafehouse.org/forums/showthread.php?t=2857
Posted: 04-25-00, 06:05 AM

At 51st, the new minimum backstab damage is Level*3/2, rounded down. 76 is the least you will hit for at 51st, and it goes up. At 60th, the minimum backstab is Level*2 (120).


I think the important thing is the pronoun usage. In my mind "it" is referencing the minimum backstab damage. If "it" is in reference to the damage formula it's highly unclear and vague as to what those values are.

[Baxter]

This was LDoN based but they still had *about* the same damage cap as is expected here. That's level 51, though, which we already know.

This rogue backstabed a runed mob and only saw the damage after the rune wore off. This happens all the time and is no indication of the situation we are facing now.

[Shiftin]

In a quick search:
http://www.thesafehouse.org/forums/showthread.php?t=6326



This was LDoN based but they still had *about* the same damage cap as is expected here. That's level 51, though, which we already know.

Also, I do see the damage formula posted EVERYWHERE in the exact same phrasing so it was widely accepted as right (or widely copied wrong)

From here: http://www.thesafehouse.org/forums/showthread.php?t=2857
Posted: 04-25-00, 06:05 AM


I think the important thing is the pronoun usage. In my mind "it" is referencing the minimum backstab damage. If "it" is in reference to the damage formula it's highly unclear and vague as to what those values are.

Even if "it" references the damage vs the modifying formula, "it" can still go up gradually until it reaches its new clearly stated formula. We have different interpretations of the same sentence.

I don't know the original author of that sentence but it's just copy/pasted verbatim everwhere. Unfortunately, we don't know which "it" is being referred to, but pretty basic EQ logic dictates that damage increases gradually.

One of the tables above is an attempt at recreating both the logic used in melee mechanics throughout the game and peoples memories, and one matches the easiest way to code the first google results for minimum backstab damage (2 formulas vs a table or 10 formulas).

[Aadill]

We have different interpretations of the same sentence.

Yep. So do the GMs. There is no evidence to prove that the damage formula changes between 52 and 59, so they went with the interpretation they can back up. I'm not arguing for it but that's what they have to go by so they did. I'd be just as happy to see the min dmg curve make some load of sense but since when did things get changed without proof? Besides, technically, the damage *does* go up per level.

but pretty basic EQ logic dictates that damage increases gradually.
pretty basic EQ logic
basic EQ logic

Whoa there, sailor. Be careful.

and one matches the code that all google results imply for minimum backstab damage

I fixed this. Like I said, not disagreeing, but there is NO empirical evidence thus far that proves that it should be a smooth curve. I'm scouring thesafehouse.org right now but don't see anything related to this.



This rogue backstabed a runed mob and only saw the damage after the rune wore off. This happens all the time and is no indication of the situation we are facing now.

He mentions 79 as the min backstab at level 51. That is a fair approximation of the situation as it is now, but isn't helpful because we already know that. I'm just giving indication that it isn't anything new. The runed mob bit has nothing to do with the relevant information in that post.. I just didn't go to the trouble to delete it.


PS Just trying to be an advocate for proper research not trying to piss off rogues. Anecdotes don't mean anything because we've seen that people have been dead wrong about a lot of bug reports.

[Aadill]

http://www.thesafehouse.org/forums//showthread.php?t=17686

The link in this thread would've been perfect, so if someone can find a way to wayback this (I couldn't get it to work)

Kavhok, an EQ designer, has finally posted the actual formula for determining base backstab hit. He does so in this thread but the link doesn't work because this is an old post and the internet wants to make my hair fall out so if you want to try to waybackmachine it click on the link above.

In any case, check these two things out:

- Backstab multiplier. The backstab multiplier is 2 + (skill * .02). A level 70 rogue with +12% backstab skill has a multiplier of 7.26. With an 18 damage piercer, the backstab skill has 130 base damage.

Note that they don't call it minimum damage and instead refer to it as base damage (this is important and I'll mention this further down my post), but further down the page someone makes this exact same reference to minimum damage as we are discussing here:

As any rogue knows, your minimum hit is a function of your level, nothing else. A level 70 rogue has a minimum hit of 130 with a rusty dagger as well as Soulskive.



At level 70 you do 10 more damage for your minimum backstab. 10 damage. In your smoothed curve I would expect a much higher minimum backstab for level 70.

That 59 to 60 jump doesn't sound so crazy anymore, because EQ really doesn't follow any logic.



NOW: MORE IMPORTANTLY: there is the modifier for backstab that should treat your backstab as a completely different weapon simply based off of your primary dagger. They mention, and this is why it's confusing, 130 BASE damage, which is calculated by using the rogue backstab skill modifier and some other nifty calculations including your weapon damage. The higher damage your primary weapon the more likely you are to hit way above that minimum damage mark. As of right now it makes no difference if you use an SCD or Crystalline Spear to backstab because you always hit for minimum, but it seems like the spread should be further out. Maybe that calculation is off?

[Aadill]

Oh here we go, I found the "it":

http://goberserker.com/forums/archive/index.php?t-1576.html

fatbuk's post, right near the bottom of the page:

There are some obvious exceptions. Like rogues get double backstab at 55 and then have their min backstab jump from like 88 to 125 when they hit 60.


Currently it looks like this
Level ratio damage Rounded Down
59__ 1.5__ 88.5... 88
60__ 2___ 120... 120


That's pretty close to matching.


Also as noted in an earlier post about the MASSIVE advantage of being level 60:

Similarly at one point a 59 wizard was absolutely useless compared to a 60 wizard with sunstrike, ice spear of solist, and all the good level 60 spells. But for the most part the class defining strenghts and weaknesses scale down nicely.



I think the backstab woes still stem from skill dependency as well as the possibility of AC values. Not only that, but any help in the form of parses given thus far have not been replicated due to a lack of data/cohesion.... also a lack of a test server (it's currently down, according to Uthgaard). I'd recommend going back and getting all the necessary information to be recreated or have a rogue from here get copied to the test server to be used. From there tuning can be adjusted by focusing on the BASE DAMAGE calculations for backstab using the backstab multipliers, level 60, and max STR. I would expect to find something totally different than what Kanras is seeing simply because it's using "real world" equipment and stats, not laboratory-created characters.

[Treats]

The only problem with Rogue backstab at the moment is the percentage you hit for minimum damage versus the percentage you hit for magic number damage. Based off the logs in this thread those parses should be something you would see from Trakanon/VP mobs that are 60+.

I just pulled this out of my ass but I look forward to leveling just so my DPS goes up by a few points even though my gear hasn't changed much since level 50. I use the gobby earring as a serious buff because I worry my ATK, which can reach about 1200, isn't high enough and is the sole reason why my DPS is shit. In reality I'm starting to wonder if the skills are what's causing issues for melee.

This is exactly how it should work. Posted this earlier in the thread. The component that has the largest alteration of hit distribution is Mob level versus Player level. The next is Attack. I am unsure how much less Attack plays a part in it though.

Another note here on hit distribution. Different classes have different percentages that all range between the three main numbers - Minimum damage, Magic Number, and Maximum damage. What was done back then was to use this for each one.

These are just made up percentages, they are not correct. For example, say you have a Monk that is level 60 and fighting a low dark blue (46). His hit distribution may look something like this:

30% Min, 60% Magic Number, 10% Max

Replace that dark blue mob with Trakanon and you would have an entirely different distribution:

75% Min, 20% Magic Number, 5% Max

Different classes have different spreads representing the damage tables also.

Monk vs Dark Blue mob (46)

30% Min, 60% Magic, 10% Max

Ranger vs Dark Blue mob (46)

45% Min, 55% Magic, 5% Max

Several factors affect these calculations - Player level, Player class, Attack, Mob Level, Mob AC etc.

[Fleury_P99]

Any word on this being changed Kanras?

[dojo420]

I was about to post the same link as Aadill. What I got from it is that Backstab is just another melee attack with a modified weapon damage value.

Doesn't this mean it should have the same damage distribution as regular attacks? I am at work and don't have a log available to me to compare regular melee with backstab damage distribution.

With a cap on the minimum damage and low damage piercers it now makes kind of sense to have a higher percentage of minimum damage backstabs with a 10 vs a 15 dmg piercer (not sure how to explain: a bigger part of the graph gets set to minimum damage the closer it is to that number). Before I always thought of backstab as an attack with seperate rules from regular melee. So now I am just wondering if they are infact treated the same in regards to atk & ac here on p99.

Nothing on minimum damage 52-59 though.

edit:
another link that might be interesting:
How is backstab calculated? (http://www.thesafehouse.org/forums/showthread.php?t=36486)
specifically: http://www.brogett.plus.com/backstab_formula.pdf
While not the exact formula and way after our timeframe maybe someone can get some info from here.

[Aadill]

I went through that post and pdf and decided a lot of it was whining about non rogues getting piercers... dear lord it is horrible. The pdf, however, does have a lot of data. The only problem is he admits he skews the data on both ends "to make it fit." The important thing is the obvious 1-20 rolls, the significant part of this post is here:

1) PC_DAM_BONUS=1, with ATK_ROLL from 1 to 20. This covers the left and central
spikes. The distribution extends from <=290 (clipped) to 538 in this plot.
2) PC_DAM_BONUS=3.55, with ATK_ROLL from 1 to 20. This is the cause of the high spike to the right (ATK_ROLL=20) and the other 19 smaller spikes inbetween the left and right edges.
3) 1 < PC_DAM_BONUS < 3.55. These cause a whole background of hit values. However because ATK_ROLL=20 is more common than the others (as can be seen by the right hand
spike being the highest) we therefore also have 255 values in this background that are higher than the rest


It seems we aren't seeing ATK_ROLL=20 as much, or even 17 18 or 19. The distribution seems skewed towards the low end instead, and not just for backstab either. Should it be possible to hit for 2 at level 57?*


*On mobs with high enough AC I would expect low hits a lot but the DMG bonus isn't even being added or is being mitigated after the fact.

[Arkyani]

Here is some more depressing proof.. Using both a SCD and Crystalline Spear, still insane number of minimum damage even if using a higher damage piercer.

http://s2.postimage.org/j49544jna/backstab.jpg

[Arkyani]

So I cleared my log before crypt group and parsed again.. same result if not worse..

http://s4.postimage.org/xxc1qb1fz/backstab1.jpg

[Shiftin]

Aadill, thanks for that link about the gap between 59 and 60.

The only problem with Rogue backstab at the moment is the percentage you hit for minimum damage versus the percentage you hit for magic number damage. Based off the logs in this thread those parses should be something you would see from Trakanon/VP mobs that are 60+.


I thought we had established in a prior post that you shouldn't be able to min backstab with duelist on. Currently it is still possible to min backstab with duelist. I don't know if this counts as a backstab or duelist issue, but it seems like one of them.

The lucy description of duelist is:
1: Increase All Skills Damage Modifier by 100%
2: Increase All Skills Minimum Damage Modifier by 400%

So it should both double the max you can hit for and 4x the minimum for "all skills". Backstab is currently not being pulled in as a skill per duelist. Should it be?

[Aadill]

Backstab is currently not being pulled in as a skill per duelist.

I've noticed that even with double damage shots in archery the damage is still the normal minimum (19 dmg min with a double is still 19 dmg min) so it's a widespread issue. Might need a separate bug report since this bug report here has gone through three different issues at this point.

[Baxter]

So many problems with rogues its hard to keep them all straight! Broken BS, broken duelist, broken sneak/hide dragging corpses. And if this post at http://www.thesafehouse.org/forums/showthread.php?t=2870 (http://www.thesafehouse.org/forums/showthread.php?t=2865) is to believed(posted 08-17-2000) bind would should cap at 70% post level level 50.

I am glad though we are talking about these issues and bringing them to light.

[dojo420]

..bind would should cap at 70% post level level 50.
This works (for me at least).

[Baxter]

This works (for me at least).

You're right. Last time I tried it wouldn't go past 50 but now it does.

[Treats]

Aadill, thanks for that link about the gap between 59 and 60.



I thought we had established in a prior post that you shouldn't be able to min backstab with duelist on. Currently it is still possible to min backstab with duelist. I don't know if this counts as a backstab or duelist issue, but it seems like one of them.

The lucy description of duelist is:
1: Increase All Skills Damage Modifier by 100%
2: Increase All Skills Minimum Damage Modifier by 400%

So it should both double the max you can hit for and 4x the minimum for "all skills". Backstab is currently not being pulled in as a skill per duelist. Should it be?

Must have missed that post. I'm unsure how the calculation would work with the wording from this description of the discipline. Would really need some parses from live to see exactly how that affects the minimum hit. I don't think minimum backstab would be 480 with that active, 120 is not the base damage of the weapon.

DUELIST (Level 59): When using this discipline, all hits landed by the rogue will be for at least four times the base weapons damage. This discipline lasts for 12 seconds, and has a base reuse time of 30 minutes. The reuse time for this discipline will decrease as the rogue gains additional levels.

Best I can come up with, haven't been able to find any parses:

Max hit = ((Offense + Strength) /100) * (Weap Damage * 2) * (2 + (Backstab skill * .02)

Min hit = (Weap Damage * 2) * (2 + (Backstab skill * .02)

So, a level 60 Rogue using an SCD with Duelist on, 200 strength, and max backstab skill:

Max = 585
Min = 130 (240??)

Same Rogue with Epic (15/25):

Max = 877.5
Min = 195 (Or 240??)

[Arkyani]

Just a word,

As a rogue with epic using duelist I NEVER did that much damage. Duelist only doubles backstab damage. It gives 4x to regular melee though. Usually duelist backstabs are in the 800-900 range with ragebringer.

[Aadill]

Treats you did the math wrong. It should be 2 * max and 4 * Min

Furthermore the Min isn't based on weapon damage, so it really should only take Min * 2 which would be 240 at level 60.

*BACKSEAT MODERATOR* Also we're cluttering up a thread about AC/Level Mitigation for melee backstabs with stuff about disciplines. It's appropriate conversation but not in this thread.

[dojo420]

Rogues max at 225 backstab. Skill maxes are 252. 225 * 1.12 = 252. It means that the maximum normal backstab for Ragebringer is 533 iirc (no skill bonus, but 15 damage poker) while the MDoV's max backstab is 599 (+12% skill bonus and 15 damage poker). The max normal backstab on Bloodbath is 639 but I don't know of any 16 damage poker without a skill bonus to compare it against.
source (http://everquest.allakhazam.com/db/item.html?item=13241)

...and got into a debate on the max backstab was in kunark expansion with epic disc/nondisc...

The first number that comes to mind is 512, but I have no way to back that number up...

556 iirc..

553 and 1106 with duelist sounds right

source (http://www.thesafehouse.org/forums//showthread.php?t=37414)


15 Ragebringer 134/589 (134/637 Max with 12% BS mod)

Going off my old screenshots i deduced i had a 581 BS (i screenshoted a max double BS from using duelist at the time)

source (http://www.peqtgc.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?p=33908#33908) (lvl 67 rogue with >225 backstab, see link)

Just some posts I found. No prove or anything.

[Shiftin]

This is frustrating knowing, like I assume most people who played a rogue in the day know, that @ lvl 60 with 15 damage your max backstab is 556 (fact!)

im wondering if thorough investigation of the safehouse archive is in order.

[Supaskillz]

I am pretty sure your attack factors into your max backstab, ragebringer significantly increase your attack so I would not expect these numbers that you are using would be the same as using an efreeti war spear

[Treats]

This is frustrating knowing, like I assume most people who played a rogue in the day know, that @ lvl 60 with 15 damage your max backstab is 556 (fact!)

im wondering if thorough investigation of the safehouse archive is in order.

Shadows of Luclin - Blood Bath - 16/21 - 12% Backstab mod.

(250 + 255) * 16 * 7.04 = 568

[Arkyani]

This has been broken way too long.. Im sure with this, along with FD being fubar as well for monks, that a lot of rogues and monks dont even bother logging in as much. I used to spend all day playing my rogue, now I hardly play him for an hour or two. Its just too damn depressing seeing backstabs for the same my offhand hits 60% of the time. I cant even remember the last time I had a max damage backstab. According to my parses In all them fights I never once hit 405 damage.

[azeth]

I am pretty sure your attack factors into your max backstab, ragebringer significantly increase your attack so I would not expect these numbers that you are using would be the same as using an efreeti war spear

good point about seething fury.

[Aadill]

good point about seething fury.

I was thinking the same thing. I posted back on page 1 about that but I don't recall if Seething Fury is +40 or +some other number. With that said, that extra ATK might also make a difference that isn't being accounted for in logs because people are parsing but not giving important data like their ATK value

[Dazen]

It's 40% to Haste , 30 to AC, and 40 to attack. I sure hope this gets fixed sometime soon.

[Wiz]

A fix on this problem would be appricated!

[Arkyani]

Just curious if there has been any progress with this problem? Its been on-going for quite a while and havent had much feedback if any. Thanks much. in advance if possible.

[dojo420]

Just wondering about what was said earlier: Is it a fact that attack increases max damage? I never played a melee dps on live but from what I remember and read while investigating this current issue I was under the impression it only increased the chance to hit for max damage (it gets compared to the defender's AC).
Simply put, the higher your attack is relative to a mob's defense, the harder, on average, you will hit it. But your min and max hit stay the same (outside of special things like "weak" mobs to certain types, spell effects that increase multipliers, whatever).
source (http://forums.station.sony.com/eq/posts/list.m?start=0&topic_id=161556#2409559)

Maybe I misunderstood the comment on Seething Fury.

[Arkyani]

No dev response in over a month. Any chance we could maybe get some feedback regarding this bug? As a rogue with one single combat skill that is broken, its pretty depressing.

[Aadill]

Just because you haven't heard any feedback doesn't mean it's not being investigated. I'm sure it is depressing but all the posts of, "omg this is so broken fix it!" with no actual valuable information and multiple pages of discussion not related to the topic doesn't make a dev want to wade through everything to find any useful data. Look, if you want something done, actually prove the math is wrong. No one has done this except by saying, "this doesn't seem right, despite the dev getting lab-based results exactly as he expected/wanted them," and providing HALF the information required to recreate an experiment. Obviously those results are not relating to the "real world" so to speak, so find out why.

You using an SCD is important information, but so is your ATK. SCD gives a magic number right around minimum damage for backstab at level 60. If there is ANY AC mitigation it's dropping you to 120 in a hot minute... it's 10 points of damage off from minimum... so you should expect that. With a higher ATK you may NOT hit for the minimum as much because you may overcome the mob's AC mitigation. With that said, if Kanras is using a Ragebringer which inherently adds ATK, are we seeing the correct values for the game or for the weapon? That's why you need this information included in your parses.

Your strength is important information because if the backstab formula directly uses STR, it needs to be known.

If you are not 60, Kanras needs to know what your skills are at. Frankly it should be included ANYWAY in case Kanras isn't limited by the skill levels from classic era on the test server (he should be but he should double check).

A parse of a rogue using disciplines and leaving that data in skews the data. Stop that.

If people provide useful information they can get useful results. If the AC mitigation portion of all melee is the problem then that is a issue of editing the formula or hand-tuning all the mobs for different AC values. Hope for the former. If this is JUST related to backstab, then the data above should be substantial enough to recreate a character and do some real testing, assuming Kanras isn't already doing that:

No Ragebringer, it's not in game. Use SCD and Crystalline Spear/Rapier of Orin (common rogue weapons)
No non-classic/Kunark ATK buffs.
No non-classic/Kunark mobs
Timeline-appropriate character stats.

[Baxter]

Getting max stats is very easy. Assume piercing is capped as well as backstab skills. At 60 having 255 str results in 1181 atk. With shrunken goblin skull earring atk raises to 1188.

I've looked all over the internet for an old parse of rogue damage, but I just cant find anything. Perhaps someone has a really old hard drive they can pull one from. haha not likely.

[Aadill]

Getting max stats is very easy. Assume piercing is capped as well as backstab skills. At 60 having 255 str results in 1181 atk. With shrunken goblin skull earring atk raises to 1188.

Useful info. Mad props. If Kanras used those values and a weapon other than a Ragebringer I wonder if he would see what rogues are seeing or still something different. If it's different I'd be majorly concerned. If it's the same it just needs some tweaking.

[Arkyani]

None of my parses were using disciplines. As for weapons, I use Crystalline Spear for backstab, although I have a SCD for regular melee attack. My parses are with spear. Also I have 255 strength, without wolf form my attack is about 1162 (not exact because not in game atm, but its just over 1200 with shared wolf form)

And yes, the problem is only with backstab. It was broken at the same exact time that the pet minimum damage bug occurred, and was supposed to be fixed in the same patch (rogean broadcasted that both bugs were fixed pending update in game) but the backstab fix never occurred.

The ONLY thing broken with backstab is the fact that it hits for minimum damage MUCH too often. The max and min damage is fine, the magic number for damage is fine. Its just getting minimum damage backstabs as often as the parses show is very wrong.

We've provided plenty of evidence that minimum backstabs occur way too often. Hell, just scroll back a few pages and look at the parses. Anybody who plays a rogue right now knows backstab is messed up. There has been plenty of pages in this thread related to the actual discussion of this bug (granted some was off topic, most isn't).

[Arkyani]

Useful info. Mad props. If Kanras used those values and a weapon other than a Ragebringer I wonder if he would see what rogues are seeing or still something different. If it's different I'd be majorly concerned. If it's the same it just needs some tweaking.

Exactly my point. Its something small that just requires a small tweak I bet. Would be easy to duplicate since plenty of rogues have been duplicating it every day for the last month and more.

[Aadill]

I've just been trying to point out that while you guys are duplicating it on P99, Kanras still isn't seeing what you're seeing. There is a lack of control in the testing somewhere, so before you even go working on code you have to see what's wrong with the test. In this instance a +40 ATK weapon at level 60 is a pretty nice boost that no one here has access to. Fixing that problem first allows Kanras to do testing and fine tune his results to what should be expected for THIS timeline, not a late-Kunark weapon and a Velious or later trash-raid mob. What's weird is that he got results on a super high AC mob that are to be expected but our lower AC mobs here with lesser weapons are giving worse results. If anything backstab should've been too good, but it isn't. I'd consider that a pretty big problem that may lean away from a simple tweak, hence the need to fix the test before looking at the problem.

[Wiz]

Its pretty clear to me that kanras is using EPIC weapon and testing it on mobs we dont even have ingame atm and then saying its fine its all fine when we all using a different weapon and mobs to test.

So i come too a conclusion that hes not gonna fix this problem and its gonna sit this way till they get around to releasing the rest of the expantition and epics

WAKE UP people you cant see this?

[Shiftin]

I think it's worth noting that something unknown is driving attack as well. With the exact same buffs, str and weapons i don't necessarily have the same ATK as another rogue. Recently in a rogue group at a raid, we did an ATK check and all 5 of us had different ATK values, despite all having maxed skills, 255 str and the same wolf form/haste. I can't imagine how that's possible, but there is some back end shenanigans going on with ATK for sure.

Also, even with VOG and share wolf form (20 and 30 stacking attack respectively) the problem persists. So the 40 attack added by ragebringer is not accounting for these differences unless item pure +ATK is added differently than spell +ATK.

[Aadill]

Now THAT is an interesting development. I usually end up with 1141 to 1200 ATK on my Ranger and I still hit for beans on Sky mobs (granted, this is expected, and I still pull decent DPS but it never gets close to a raid buffed monk or rogue when they aren't using a disc), but can actually kill a mob in KC without missing once at level 57. ATK may not be the key problem, but that's why that information is important. How much are the ATK values off by? Are they off in multiples/increments? Could unlisted STR above 255 account for these differences?

[Shiftin]

Now THAT is an interesting development. I usually end up with 1141 to 1200 ATK on my Ranger and I still hit for beans on Sky mobs (granted, this is expected, and I still pull decent DPS but it never gets close to a raid buffed monk or rogue when they aren't using a disc), but can actually kill a mob in KC without missing once at level 57. ATK may not be the key problem, but that's why that information is important. How much are the ATK values off by? Are they off in multiples/increments? Could unlisted STR above 255 account for these differences?

It seemed completely random. The spread was about 30-35 points of attack for the range. The only buff differences i'm aware of were shrunken gob ear which I didn't have, but I was still the second highest rogue in attack, higher than another level 60 with the earring buff on. I will force a more thorough test after our next raid and document unbuffed/buffed STR, etc.

Also, Wiz, quit being a jerk. Their test server is/was moving locations.

[Aadill]

I have *close* to max STR so I still get indrect +ATK bonuses from bard songs from +STR, but are there any songs that offer any direct +ATK bonuses? I would hope it's a matter of an unchecked buff or something simple because that's a fairly large spread over something that should be impossible at this point in the game.

[Arkyani]

As for different attack values, some people may have been using shrunken goblin skull earring to buff their attack as well.

Just by looking at the amount of views on this thread compared with the other Bugs, its quite obvious a LOT of people are affected by it.

[Shiftin]

It was 5 rogues + a druid (for wolf form/spot heals). We should have been affected by bard songs. Again i'm going off memory and will get better values tonight or next time something pops and i can get a few folks on.

[Aadill]

As for different attack values, some people may have been using shrunken goblin skull earring to buff their attack as well.

Not for +35 ATK they aren't. I'm assuming max STR vs < max STR as to why they're so different.

[Aadill]

How the hell did Shiftin's post just disappear? Anyway, yeah I would find it weird to NOT have max STR, so.. derp.

[Arkyani]

Agreed. Even as a halfling hitting 255 strength is very easy. For a barbarian it wouldnt even require a full set of equipment.

[Treats]

Strength never added to your attack on Live (fake attack). It would give the visual that strength would add to your attack rating on the display but it did not. This is why people always referred to attack as "Raw Attack" which was attack minus worn/buffed strength. I do not know if someone's base strength was factored into this however (Base strength could have added attack). Possibly that is what is giving you differing attack ratings for same level/same skills/same buffs. Could also be its capping your strength at 255 (say its actually 275 or something) and that extra 25 is adding on to your attack.

All of this should not matter however if it works as it did on live. Two level 60 Rogues with the same weapon skill/offense/buffs/base strength would have the exact same attack. The display however would show different values.

Unsure if this is how attack works here. If not it is something that would need to be looked at.

[Shiftin]

Yeah, it's a great point that we're only looking at the values the client displays, which as AC has shown us, don't really mean much.

[Aadill]

Does Ragebringer add +40 raw atk or +40 worn atk? Is it being added the wrong way? Would it actually make a difference?

[Shiftin]

I can't imagine that 40 attack either way is making a difference between backstabbing for the min 45% of the time and 20% of the time. I have rogues leveling up send me tells for advice somewhat regularly when i'm not anon and the feedback i've gotten when we talk about backstab seems to be that the % of hitting for min is consistent all the way up.

[Treats]

Does Ragebringer add +40 raw atk or +40 worn atk? Is it being added the wrong way? Would it actually make a difference?

Raw attack is just describing the attack that is figured without strength. Worn attack and Spell attack both factor into your RAW. Just an example:

60 Rogue
1450 ATK
240 Strength
Ragebringer (40 worn attack)
Spirit Wracked Cord (Velious, 10 worn attack)
Avatar Buff (100 spell attack)

Client displayed attack: 1450
Actual attack with worn and spell: 1210 OR (Display attack - worn/spell strength) where base strength adds attack

The numbers that you guys have been posting with the SCD's are fairly close to what they should be. 10 more damage on each backstab (120 to 130 magic number damage) with an SCD will not really increase your damage very much. Reuse on the backstab skill is not related to weapon delay. The only way you are significantly increasing your dps when the change is made to more hits for magic number damage is with a higher damage piercer.

A damage layout on a low ac mob should look something similar to 45% Min - 50% Magic Number - 5% Max. Would be skewed higher towards Magic Number damage and slightly higher to Maximum damage as you add more worn/spell attack. Way lower damage on a high level high AC mob shown from the log on the Thriftling Focuser (Like 75% - 20% - 5%)

Min to Magic Number damage again:

SCD - 120 to 130
Rapier of Oriin - 120 to 156
Crystalline Spear - 120 to 169

[Wiz]

I wasnt meaning to come across as a dick but,

I dont understand why they cant acually fix this problem and acually use what we have ingame ATM to test these numbers rather then testing it with something not ingame yet.

Something is wrong and this is just being pushed off till they release epics it seems.

[Aadill]

I dont understand why they cant acually fix this problem and acually use what we have ingame ATM to test these numbers rather then testing it with something not ingame yet.

This is what I've been advocating since page 1. Super important stuff to have useful data that can actually be used to recreate a character to test. Hell just copy a char over to the test server and have the person log in (or do it yourself). I doubt they're putting it off they just don't have a proper testbed to run it on (unless the dev server is back up and they're just poking at it and not keeping people informed (as that's not their specific duty to do so).

[Baxter]

Uthgaard, please read this thread. I promise you we are not making this stuff up. Everything in here PROVES 45%+ minimum backstabs, how you got 18% is a mystery to me and everyone else.

[Lanuven]

Uthgaard, please read this thread. I promise you we are not making this stuff up. Everything in here PROVES 45%+ minimum backstabs, how you got 18% is a mystery to me and everyone else.

BUMP!

[kanras]

So wait is all of this concerning people with 10 dmg daggers expecting much above the 120 dmg min at 60?

What would a level 60 person with a 15 dmg backstabber find?

Basically, anyone doing testing with a 10 dmg dagger will find what Baxter found. Anyone doing testing with a 15 dmg dagger will find what Kanras found and both seem correct because for the former magic and minimum are so close and for the latter a much more even spread is available simply due to the weapon. AC may still be a factor but the end-all-be-all weapon for rogues opens up a whole new can o' whoopass, as an epic should, as evidenced by a much larger magic number/max damage value.

Looks like someone with a crystalline spear/efreeti war spear needs to do some testing because the numbers make more sense as of right now.

This was posted by a ranger over a month ago. Overall, him and Treats get it. Why are all the high level rogues that have posted in this thread (other than Xenu) still just bumping this thread with no actual contribution?

[Wildas]

Atk never raised max hit in classic. Max for a 15 damage weapon was 553, needed a BS mod to go higher.

[Shiftin]

I spent about 3 hours parsing last night with crys spear, the highest damage practical weapon in game (13 damage). Half with the standard 60 rogue ATK w/ capped str (1181) and half with simulated ragebringer +ATK by getting VoG and shrunken gobby earring (1225).

There was less than half a point difference between the two trials in terms of miss %, so in terms of how often you hit for min when backstabbing, it's safe to say that pure +ATK effects do nothing.

Both trials parsed at 37% minimum backstabs. Yes, I am 60, have maxed weapon and backstab skills and had maxed STR during the entire time. So this is 15% higher min % than in the trials with ragebringer and 7-8% lower than using a 10 damage piercer.

I finished late and didn't get a chance to upload all my raw data, but I will try to get to it tonight.

I would be happy to test under the exact same circumstances with a 15 damage piercer if a GM wants to loan me one for a night so that I can do the work.

[Aadill]

So a 10 damage weapon parsed 46% minimum backstabs and a 13 damage weapon parsed 37% minimum backstabs.

Based on that alone wouldn't you expect to see a 27-30% minimum backstab amount with a 15 damage weapon? That... kinda matches what Kanras found and what I said a month and a half ago.

The distrubution DOES seem too linear.... I would expect a plateau effect of diminishing returns but we're seeing an almost linear calculation. I bet if a 10 damage weapon did 37%, a 13 33% and a 15 did 25-27% a lot less complaints would be heard, but there would have to be hard proof that it wasn't linear, i.e. parses of different weapons from live.

[kanras]

Shiftin,

Grim Aura + VOG = 25 Raw ATK, so you're still 15 short if you really want to simulate the Seething Fury effect.
You need to include what mobs this was tested against. There's going to be a pretty large difference between testing against juggs and karnor's trash, because of mob AC. I don't know what test you're talking about when you claim someone got 22% min BS with a ragebringer, but I somewhat doubt it was against the same mobs you were parsing against.

Other than that, your results aren't too surprising given the sample size.

[Shiftin]

Unfortunately, i just don't know where to get those. The real issue is that rogues across the board don't understand why your hit distribution within your range (min-max-magic) changes so drastically with weapon damage but things like your level, ATK, etc have very little impact. I would think it would be the opposite, that your weapon damage determines your range of possible damage, and all of those other factors determine where you hit within that range.

Kanras would you mind posting what tigole's miss % was with backstab from the parses you have?

Also, it only kinda looks linear, but it actually seems to accelerate a bunch. Going from 10-13 was about 2.6666 percentage points of minimum per damage, where going from 13-15 seems like about double that.

[kanras]

Do you understand what the backstab minimum is? Just from reading this thread, you guys seem to think of it like a damage bonus, where you should min backstab at the same rate that you min hit with your normal attacks. Instead, the backstab damage is calculated, and if it's less than the minimum, the damage is set to the minimum. So whenever you increase your weapon damage, STR, ATK, BS skill, all of those things are going to decrease your min. BS rate because they increase the average "normally calculated" BS damage. This is unless you're using a rusty dagger or something that can't even max hit above the min dmg @ 60.

[kanras]

That tigole parse didn't have misses on, unfortunately.

[Aadill]

@Shiftin:


10 DMG Piercer - (130) Magic Number, (293) Max hit
11 DMG Piercer - (143) Magic Number, (323) Max hit
12 DMG Piercer - (156) Magic Number, (352) Max hit
13 DMG Piercer - (169) Magic Number, (381) Max hit
14 DMG Piercer - (182) Magic Number, (411) Max hit
15 DMG Piercer - (195) Magic Number, (440) Max hit

Actually the magic number is a diminishing curve (13 points per level, diminishes from 9 to 6% gains per damage increase on weapon) and the max hit is also a diminishing curve (29-30 points per level, diminishes from 9 to 6% gains per damage increase on weapon)

As far as ATK not affecting damage distribution ATK SHOULD be shifting your damage HIGHER towards your magic number but not past it. I think that was said in that one link that went to a PDF file earlier in this thread (if not I kinda remember where it's at and I'll post it later). There were some other references to stuff that affects damage over all such as STR increasing max damage by a percentage but ATK only shifted a portion of your distribution upwards.

With that said, the way I understand it is that if your ATK shifts your minimum up to your magic number but your magic number is only 10 points higher, high AC mobs will mitigate that ATK bonus and bring you right back down to minimum. That's why with a 13 damage weapon you have slightly better chances because it's not 130 -> 120 but 169 -> 120. How many of your backstabs were greater than 120 but lower than 169 with your 13 damage weapon? How many more were above 169 than with a 10 damage weapon? That might clear some stuff up about ATK.


Also this:
Instead, the backstab damage is calculated, and if it's less than the minimum, the damage is set to the minimum.

I bet if you used a rusty dagger you'd see 95%+ minimum backstabs.

[kanras]

@Shiftin:
Actually the magic number is a diminishing curve (13 points per level, diminishes from 9 to 6% gains per damage increase on weapon) and the max hit is also a diminishing curve (29-30 points per level, diminishes from 9 to 6% gains per damage increase on weapon)


There's no curve to magic numbers. It's just 2x weapon damage.


As far as ATK not affecting damage distribution ATK SHOULD be shifting your damage HIGHER towards your magic number but not past it.


This is impossible due to the way the client damage formula works.

[Aadill]

Sorry kanras I'm talking about the returns per damage increase of the weapon. I used Treat's numbers because I think we established they were correct but the increase per damage of the weapon diminishes (13 points per damage but never going any higher, making the damage increase linear but the returns non-linear).

As far as the second part - is that how it should work or no? I sorta pulled that one out of my arse trying to remember what I read.. might be wrong on it~

[Treats]

As far as ATK not affecting damage distribution ATK SHOULD be shifting your damage HIGHER towards your magic number but not past it.

As you add more and more ATK you will end up seeing more gains towards Magic Number damage. There will still be a minimal gain from Magic Number + 1 to max but in order to see a noticeable increase you would need to be fighting something that was way below your level.

Player level VS Mob Level and Player ATK VS Mob AC should be the greatest factors in determining where your hit distribution is spread.

Rough Example:

If you were fighting Trakanon with 1000 ATK lets say most of your hits were for minimum damage. If you added 300 ATK (1300) you would probably see a pretty big increase in your hits ranging from (Min + 1) to Magic Number. Most of them still would probably on the low side (from Min to halfway between Min and Magic Number) and over Magic Number damage it would look about the same with a minimal increase (increased though). With Player level VS Mob Level there is simply no way to alter this EXCEPT to raise your level. This is why it was SO important back in classic. Differences in raiding at 59 and 60 were large. You could overcome this somewhat with higher ATK but depending on the Mob's AC (most of the time when raiding you were doing hard shit with high AC) it just wasn't enough. Couple this with being able to better resist AE's at 60 rather than 59 and you were dying alot faster requiring more heals only to do marginal DPS.

Now say you were fighting a Black Bear with 1000 ATK. Most of your hits would probably be right around Magic Number damage + and -. Increasing your ATK by 300 (1300) you would end up seeing alot more hits sprayed in between Magic Number and halfway between Magic Number and Max with it dropping off as you got higher and higher to your Max damage. Hits for minimum to (Magic Number - 1) would be very low.

[Aadill]

stuff

That's pretty much how I understood it but with what Kanras is saying that's nigh impossible to do? formulate? calculate?

[Treats]

I think what he was saying is that it would be impossible to stop the affect of ATK on your damage distribution over (Magic Number + 1). It cannot affect just Minimum to Magic Number, it has to cover the whole range from Min to Max (but should have a low effect from (MN + 1) to Max.

[Daldolma]

I don't know much about all the formulas involved in the damage calculations, but I know for a fact that something is off with rogue melee. On live, Rapier of Oriin in main hand with Sebilite Croaking Dirk in offhand parsed better than the converse. It doesn't here, and it's not close. I know this because I had the combo then, and I have the same combo now.

Probably not terribly helpful since I don't know how to fix the problem, but at least I can help confirm that there is a problem.

[Arkyani]

Backstab has been broke since the May 29th patch with..

Kanras: All attacks by clients except throwing and archery now using new mitigation formula to more accurately distribute hits.

...and it seems they have no plans on putting it back to how it was. Its sad when backstab is now the same as a regular off-hand melee hit 50% of the time. Actually, I hit harder with green jade axe then most of my backstabs.

[Daldolma]

Backstab has been broke since the May 29th patch with..

Kanras: All attacks by clients except throwing and archery now using new mitigation formula to more accurately distribute hits.

...and it seems they have no plans on putting it back to how it was. Its sad when backstab is now the same as a regular off-hand melee hit 50% of the time. Actually, I hit harder with green jade axe then most of my backstabs.

Shrug. If they don't know how to fix it, that's understandable. I don't. But I don't see how you could argue it's working as intended. Anyone who played a Kunark-era Rogue on Live could confirm that it's not working as it did back then. The backstab ability has essentially been marginalized, whereas on Live it was a game-changer. Does Crystalline Spear even out-parse Bone Razor in main-hand right now? Because on Live, those two weren't even comparable.

[Treats]

Backstab has been broke since the May 29th patch with..

Kanras: All attacks by clients except throwing and archery now using new mitigation formula to more accurately distribute hits.

...and it seems they have no plans on putting it back to how it was. Its sad when backstab is now the same as a regular off-hand melee hit 50% of the time. Actually, I hit harder with green jade axe then most of my backstabs.

You mean how it was when you would Max backstab 40% of the time? Are you fucking kidding me? I'd love to see a log where your Green Jade Axe in offhand is hitting harder than ANY one of your backstabs.

I honestly don't understand the point of these posts. Do you guys expect to be double backstabbing for 350 EVERY single round?????????


Shrug. If they don't know how to fix it, that's understandable. I don't. But I don't see how you could argue it's working as intended. Anyone who played a Kunark-era Rogue on Live could confirm that it's not working as it did back then. The backstab ability has essentially been marginalized, whereas on Live it was a game-changer. Does Crystalline Spear even out-parse Bone Razor in main-hand right now? Because on Live, those two weren't even comparable.

It's far from marginalized here. With double backstab and a minimum of 120 at level 60 you ARE the class for DPS. Noone else can compare.

Monk is next after you. What do they get? Slightly higher skill caps. No double flying kick. No minimum of 120 for flying kick.

Monk
Weapon Skills (Hand to Hand 245) cap 252
Double Attack cap 250
Dual Wield cap 252
Offense cap 252
Flying Kick cap 225 (Min 3)
NO double flying kick

Rogue
Weapon Skills cap 250
Double Attack cap 240
Dual Wield cap 245
Offense cap 252
Backstab cap 225 (Min 120)
Double backstab

[Dazen]

No I do not expect to be backstabbing every round for 350. When you backstab for your minimum for 40% to 50% of the time something is wrong. I dont understand how you can honestly say everything is just fine. You guys are saying Oh well when you get lvl 60 you will be able to double hit for 120 so it's all ok LOL what a joke.

[Supaskillz]

Look at the posted parses. The magic number barely shows up( like 1/5 the number of magic number hits as min hits) and there is basically zero mass at max. I do not expect to max hit 30% or anything like before the patch that created this thread but I think it should be greater than 1%.

[Wiz]

Bump cause i care.

But in the back of my mind i know the devs dont give 2 shits atm :(

[Arkyani]

I can go days without seeing a max backstab.. definitely something wrong with that.

[orsk]

I feel your pain guys, as a warrior the melee is just wrong , hope you get a fix!