Rules regarding camps when someone has gotten the named spawn

[Zenren]

I have shown up to camps with named spawns and had the person at the camp continue to claim the camp after I have seen the named spawn appear. It seems to me that once you have gotten that opportunity, especially if it's a camp with a long wait, then you should pass it on to the next person on the list and so on. If you want to try again, and no one else is waiting, then try after the next person has their opportunity, but people camping the same camp 24/7 seven days a week, handing off the drops to a friend or alt and never letting anyone else have an opportunity is just trash. My opinion. Not naming names, but certain guilds have the same character camped at the same camps like this, and are never allowing other guilds the opportunity to camp those items. They're essentially controlling the market on those items. I've seen what appears to be hand offs, so they're most likely getting the item they want, they're just not giving up the camp. Anyways, I'm done rambling. Tell me what you think.

[Samoht]

Most drops aren't 100%. How do you know they're getting the items they need?

[Jibartik]

Dr Loramin Says: https://wiki.project1999.com/Play_nice_policy#You_must_comply_with_arbitration_ for_contested_spawns.

You must comply with arbitration for contested spawns.
There are cases where two or more groups wish to kill the same NPC or hunt in the same area. In these cases, the groups are required to compromise.

If an equitable compromise cannot be reached between the players prior to Project 1999 Customer Service Staff involvement, the P99CSR will mandate a compromise. Any such compromise is final and not open to debate. Refusing to abide by these terms will be considered disruption and may result in disciplinary action.

It is therefore strongly suggested that the groups make every attempt to reach a compromise that they can live with prior to involving a P99CSR, who may mandate a compromise that does not suit you to the extent that a player-devised compromise would.

Note: A "group" in this case is defined as a party of one or more characters that are united in a common belief or goal and are capable of completing that goal.

Project 1999 Staff will not be defining what constitutes a camp. Instead, Project 1999 Customer Service Staff will arbitrate spawn disputes on a per-case-basis. We greatly encourage players to find their own resolution to spawn disputes, as the solution provided by the staff will at best be a win-lose situation, and possbily a lose-lose situation. No two decisions, even at the same 'camp', are guaranteed to be the same, as we will take into account multiple factors in making a determination on a 'camp'.

That being said, you can absolutely "camp" mobs, and you cannot steal another players 'camp'. In general, if the placeholder or placeholders for a spawn are being killed, that 'camp' can be considered held by the player doing the killing so long as they are keeping the placeholders (or the room if there are no placeholders) cleared, within the same zone, do not die or log off. You do not necessarily need to be at the spawn point to call it 'claimed' while it is uncontested, however, if someone else wishes to contest the 'camp' you do need to return to the 'camp' and maintain a presence at or very near the spawn(s) in order to hold it. You cannot hold multiple 'camps' if another group wishes to contest one that you are holding. The player holding multiple 'camps' retains the right to choose which 'camp' to give up.

Please do your best to use courtesy and common sense when interacting with other players in spawn disputes.

It is against the rules to "afk camp" any npc or groups of NPC's by placing a pet nearby and letting it kill while you are away from your computer. Any other form of "afk camping/xping" is also against the rules, and you may be subject to disciplinary action (character de-leveling by deathloop is a popular punishment).

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Most drops aren't 100%. How do you know they're getting the items they need?

I don't think OP was implying they always get a drop. He probably just saw a hand off occur when it did happen. If a group of players (such as a guild) are camping something 24/7 and simply switch who is playing the character, then yeah they will be handing off the drops to another player in their guild so they can stay at the camp. This is how the Shiny Brass Idol camp works, for example. Typically someone would stay at the camp after a drop occurred, and ask in guild chat for a pickup ASAP from either a Druid/Wizard, or a nearby mule character.

Even if the item isn't lore, you would ideally put as much stuff on this shared character as possible (clickies, drink, spell reagents, etc.) to maximize the time between needing new stuff, so bag space is probably limited.

Unfortunately on a non-instanced server, this behavior isn't against the rules. If people have the time to camp the item, then they get to camp the item. The only way you can probably get a chance at the camp is if you watch the camp and catch the player being AFK for too long. I don't believe you can be AFK at a camp for too long and continue to claim it. Obviously give the player like 5-10 minutes to respond first, as people do need to use the bathroom. But if they are AFK for like 30 minutes straight, then you can take the camp. They will complain of course, but the rules state that you can't AFK camp. You should ideally record the player being AFK for 30 minutes and not killing the mob, so you can use it as evidence if elf lawyering is needed. You do not want to be the one that gets punished for camp stealing.

[Bardp1999]

I get an entitled neckbeardy vibe from your post. I would be interested in what camp you are referring to. if it's the Shiny Brass Idol camp, I suggest you log off the game and don't log back in for a few weeks to clear your addled mind. If it's a real camp, I would be interested in hearing about it and add my perspective to the discussion.

[Zenren]

I don't think OP was implying they always get a drop. He probably just saw a hand off occur when it did happen. If a group of players (such as a guild) are camping something 24/7 and simply switch who is playing the character, then yeah they will be handing off the drops to another player in their guild so they can stay at the camp. This is how the Shiny Brass Idol camp works, for example. Typically someone would stay at the camp after a drop occurred, and ask in guild chat for a pickup ASAP from either a Druid/Wizard, or a nearby mule character.

Even if the item isn't lore, you would ideally put as much stuff on this shared character as possible (clickies, drink, spell reagents, etc.) to maximize the time between needing new stuff, so bag space is probably limited.

Unfortunately on a non-instanced server, this behavior isn't against the rules. If people have the time to camp the item, then they get to camp the item. The only way you can probably get a chance at the camp is if you watch the camp and catch the player being AFK for too long. I don't believe you can be AFK at a camp for too long and continue to claim it. Obviously give the player like 5-10 minutes to respond first, as people do need to use the bathroom. But if they are AFK for like 30 minutes straight, then you can take the camp. They will complain of course, but the rules state that you can't AFK camp. You should ideally record the player being AFK for 30 minutes and not killing the mob, so you can use it as evidence if elf lawyering is needed. You do not want to be the one that gets punished for camp stealing.

This is what I'm talking about. I wont shame people by naming the camps, but there are items required for raiding and currently one guild is 24/7 spawn camping several of those items. There is absolutely no chance to get these items that significantly help unless they decide to sell them, and because they own the camp, they also dictate the price of this item. Seems shady and I'm 100% certain it wasn't allowed because my brother actually had to give up a camp due to a complaint of monopolization, because he would grab the same camp and just stay there constantly, using a timer to let him know when the mob would pop, then hand off the item to my other brother when he got it. We were younger then, but still I'm 100% certain that's what's happening here. The question I guess is whether anything will be done about it.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

This is what I'm talking about. I wont shame people by naming the camps, but there are items required for raiding and currently one guild is 24/7 spawn camping several of those items. There is absolutely no chance to get these items that significantly help unless they decide to sell them, and because they own the camp, they also dictate the price of this item. Seems shady and I'm 100% certain it wasn't allowed because my brother actually had to give up a camp due to a complaint of monopolization, because he would grab the same camp and just stay there constantly, using a timer to let him know when the mob would pop, then hand off the item to my other brother when he got it. We were younger then, but still I'm 100% certain that's what's happening here. The question I guess is whether anything will be done about it.

There are no anti-monopoly rules on this server as far as I am aware for normal camps, only AFK rules. On a non-instanced server, camps are contested, that is how it works. If you make rules to prevent this, that is basically a rotation, and you might as well just become an instanced server at that point.

The only anti-monopoly rules I can think of are the /list system on Green to give more people a shot at legacy items, and Bag Limits for certain raid bosses. There are also occasionally server-wide raid events where content is distributed amongst guilds, so casual players get a shot at raiding, see https://www.project1999.com/forums/showthread.php?p=3407634#post3407634 for an example of that.

Guilds do lose camps like these on occasion when the person camping the item has to log out, and nobody replaces them. Sometimes the person camping the item does something like fall asleep lol, and when people notice they are AFK for too long, they take over.

You just have to be patient and try to pounce on these breaks in the camp, which do occur from time to time.

[loramin]

Dr Loramin Says: https://wiki.project1999.com/Play_nice_policy#You_must_comply_with_arbitration_ for_contested_spawns.

Minor correction: I deserve no credit, that's the staff's Play Nice Policies, and the latest version of them is available here: https://www.project1999.com/forums/showthread.php?t=325349

[cd288]

This is what I'm talking about. I wont shame people by naming the camps, but there are items required for raiding and currently one guild is 24/7 spawn camping several of those items. There is absolutely no chance to get these items that significantly help unless they decide to sell them, and because they own the camp, they also dictate the price of this item. Seems shady and I'm 100% certain it wasn't allowed because my brother actually had to give up a camp due to a complaint of monopolization, because he would grab the same camp and just stay there constantly, using a timer to let him know when the mob would pop, then hand off the item to my other brother when he got it. We were younger then, but still I'm 100% certain that's what's happening here. The question I guess is whether anything will be done about it.

Welcome to classic

[Samoht]

This is what I'm talking about. I wont shame people by naming the camps, but there are items required for raiding and currently one guild is 24/7 spawn camping several of those items. There is absolutely no chance to get these items that significantly help unless they decide to sell them, and because they own the camp, they also dictate the price of this item. Seems shady and I'm 100% certain it wasn't allowed because my brother actually had to give up a camp due to a complaint of monopolization, because he would grab the same camp and just stay there constantly, using a timer to let him know when the mob would pop, then hand off the item to my other brother when he got it. We were younger then, but still I'm 100% certain that's what's happening here. The question I guess is whether anything will be done about it.

*two guilds

Because if you're talking about idols and scepters, when one guild leaves, you find that the other has been monitoring them the entire time and swoops in to take the camp.

But your original complaint is moot because these items aren't necessary for anybody in any role other than these two guilds, and one of those guilds doesn't even use the correctly.

[cd288]

*two guilds

Because if you're talking about idols and scepters, when one guild leaves, you find that the other has been monitoring them the entire time and swoops in to take the camp.

But your original complaint is moot because these items aren't necessary for anybody in any role other than these two guilds, and one of those guilds doesn't even use the correctly.

I think he's arguing that another guild can't effectively compete with the top 1 or 2 guilds when they can't get access to the meta raiding tools

[Samoht]

Idols (or lack there of) don't keep you from competing. There are a lot of targets in this game. Velious introduced TONS of new bosses in MANY different zones.

Guilds can do Tunare, Kael, Sleepers, Zlandi, Yeli, WToV, Dain, etc without even clicking an idol. That's just the new Velious content.

Let's be honest, though. Is OPs complaint about Riot and Vanquish keeping the idol camp on lock down or is this just another passive complaint about the NToV train meta?

Is OP in kittens? Please tell me OP is in kittens.

[Zenren]

Idols (or lack there of) don't keep you from competing. There are a lot of targets in this game. Velious introduced TONS of new bosses in MANY different zones.

Guilds can do Tunare, Kael, Sleepers, Zlandi, Yeli, WToV, Dain, etc without even clicking an idol. That's just the new Velious content.

Let's be honest, though. Is OPs complaint about Riot and Vanquish keeping the idol camp on lock down or is this just another passive complaint about the NToV train meta?

Is OP in kittens? Please tell me OP is in kittens.

Is OP recognizing that this is the kind of attitude that they're talking about, the "we can do it and we are going to do it and if you don't like it go <bleep> yourself attitude." I'm not mentioning names, because it's really not about guild's so much as it is behavior that's really inappropriate and unfair to the community. As an aside, I don't think Kittens would actually allow people to lockdown a camp like this, they have a "play nice" rule that means members aren't supposed to be disruptive towards the community or zone, and this is pretty disruptive. There's a reason the general populous isn't calling the KWSM names or complaining about how they're stealing camps or acting like jerks. This is just an aside since you went there and thought naming names was a good thing. Nice spamming btw.

[Jibartik]

Who was that old shaman that used to sit on the tranix throne like he was an NPC for like 2 years

[Samoht]

it is behavior that's really inappropriate and unfair to the community.

Unfair how exactly? That's what I'm waiting for any of you to explain. Shiny Brass Idols have basically zero use for anybody outside of the guilds camping them.

Are you upset just because you can't camp them to sell them to the guilds that want them?

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Is OP recognizing that this is the kind of attitude that they're talking about, the "we can do it and we are going to do it and if you don't like it go <bleep> yourself attitude." I'm not mentioning names, because it's really not about guild's so much as it is behavior that's really inappropriate and unfair to the community. As an aside, I don't think Kittens would actually allow people to lockdown a camp like this, they have a "play nice" rule that means members aren't supposed to be disruptive towards the community or zone, and this is pretty disruptive. There's a reason the general populous isn't calling the KWSM names or complaining about how they're stealing camps or acting like jerks. This is just an aside since you went there and thought naming names was a good thing. Nice spamming btw.

Not trying to be mean here, but when you play a non-instanced MMO, this is what you sign up for. There is competition for resources. Literally just about every other MMO on the market (including EQ live and TLP) offer instancing. If you don't like a non-instanced MMO, play another game.

There is no solution to this problem other than instancing, and people like playing here because it is non-instanced. Once you make P99 instanced, it will be the death of the server because you are now basically trying to be a free TLP server, in direct competition with the paid TLP servers. It will probably get shut down at that point. It won't even be that much different than the TLP servers once you put in instancing. If you want instancing, play the TLP servers.

Kittens would camp these items around the clock too if they had players willing to do so. The only reason why Kittens doesn't do this is because they are more casual than the top raiding guilds. That doesn't make them altruistic, or play more fairly. This isn't meant to be an insult to Kittens, I think they are a great guild and a huge benefit to this server. But that "play nice policy" you are talking about is the same as the P99 play nice policy, you can't be disruptive to the zone.

Camping an item is not considered zone disruption. It would be silly to say that, since you have no idea if the player is even getting the item they are after. EQ can screw you over to the point where you are waiting literal days in time for an item. How are you going to prove that? Will you just force someone to stop camping an item because you want a turn? That is just as selfish, and if you were honest with yourself you would probably consider that zone disruption too. You are forcing players to change what they are doing to fit your schedule.

[p99deadstarre]

uninstall, but keep reading the forums for the luls.

hope this helps

[Videri]

Idols (or lack there of) don't keep you from competing. There are a lot of targets in this game. Velious introduced TONS of new bosses in MANY different zones.

Guilds can do Tunare, Kael, Sleepers, Zlandi, Yeli, WToV, Dain, etc without even clicking an idol. That's just the new Velious content.

Let's be honest, though. Is OPs complaint about Riot and Vanquish keeping the idol camp on lock down or is this just another passive complaint about the NToV train meta?

Is OP in kittens? Please tell me OP is in kittens.

Lesser raid guilds also encourage/incentivize members to get a list of items including DA idols. You're right that a lot of raid content doesn't require DA idols, but people still try to get one because they believe it's necessary to be prepared for general raiding. Guilds and players trying to claw their way up the raid ladder will camp these idols and other stuff too, despite the fact that they don't need them for Dain or whatever.

[ReoDobbs]

The fact the the person can dictate who they hand the camp off to is a shit rule. I'm not sure why people are citing "the PnP" (hypocritical name btw) when the OP asked for opinions on the behavior and not what the rules of the server are.

It's a scumbag move, end of story but typical and people are rewarded for scumbagging under the "play nice policy"

[Samoht]

Nah, the OP posed a very specific question under false pretenses. This isn't a conversation, it's a farce.

I don't know if they're complaining because they're in Kittens and they think they can't raid without idols or if they just want the idol camp to sell idols.

OP is too busy playing the victim to play the game.

[loramin]

The fact the the person can dictate who they hand the camp off to is a shit rule.

This. The PnP are largely awesome, and when they're not it's usually because of a limit of our all-volunteer GM team. This rule is an anomaly: it isn't needed by volunteer GMs, and it makes the server worse by encouraging lockdowns on camps.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

This. The PnP are largely awesome, and when they're not it's usually because of a limit of our all-volunteer GM team. This rule is an anomaly: it isn't needed by volunteer GMs, and it makes the server worse by encouraging lockdowns on camps.

The person owning the camp getting to pick makes the most sense. Unless they implement /list globally (which would really suck), there is no way to know who the correct next person in line is. Lets say you go to the bathroom, come back, and three people are there waiting for you to finish camping the mob.

Who got there first, second and third? No way to know if the other players disagree, unless you were recording or catch some good evidence in your logs. Unless we require everyone to record and/or use logs when playing, most people wouldn't have this kind of evidence.

Someone has to make the final decision without GM intervention (they don't have time to arbitrate every dispute), and that person is obviously the camp owner. I am not sure how you would handle this situation otherwise, since the people who arrived have no ownership or claim on the camp currently, so their opinions are equally worthless compared to the current camp owner.

It wouldn't be fair to the camp owner if the people waiting in line somehow had more say on the matter than the current camp owner. Forcibly taking over a camp is camp stealing, and against the rules. That is basically what would end up happening if the people waiting in line could somehow overrule the current camp owner. If it was a vote, of course the current camp owner would get voted out lol.

[loramin]

The person owning the camp getting to pick makes the most sense. Unless they implement /list globally (which would really suck), there is no way to know who the correct next person in line is. Lets say you go to the bathroom, come back, and three people are there waiting for you to finish camping the mob.

Who got there first, second and third? No way to know if the other players disagree, unless you were recording or catch some good evidence in your logs. Unless we require everyone to record and/or use logs when playing, most people wouldn't have this kind of evidence.

Someone has to make the final decision without GM intervention (they don't have time to arbitrate every dispute), and that person is obviously the camp owner. I am not sure how you would handle this situation otherwise, since the people who arrived have no ownership or claim on the camp currently, so their opinions are equally worthless compared to the current camp owner.

It wouldn't be fair to the camp owner if the people waiting in line somehow had more say on the matter than the current camp owner. Forcibly taking over a camp is camp stealing, and against the rules. That is basically what would end up happening if the people waiting in line could somehow overrule the current camp owner. If it was a vote, of course the current camp owner would get voted out lol.

None of that has to be like that. It could be very simple: if three people are waiting for the camp, they random and the winner takes it.

[Zenren]

Nah, the OP posed a very specific question under false pretenses. This isn't a conversation, it's a farce.

I don't know if they're complaining because they're in Kittens and they think they can't raid without idols or if they just want the idol camp to sell idols.

OP is too busy playing the victim to play the game.

What is it with the attacks on Kittens dude? I mean, we get it, you think they're inferior and you dislike them and their casual ways. I might suggest you get a life and stop trolling the forum. You've got an opinion on everything and usually it's negative. Why can't you let those of us who can have a civil conversation without insults do that, and you go back to whatever you do for fun.

[Zenren]

The person owning the camp getting to pick makes the most sense. Unless they implement /list globally (which would really suck), there is no way to know who the correct next person in line is. Lets say you go to the bathroom, come back, and three people are there waiting for you to finish camping the mob.

Who got there first, second and third? No way to know if the other players disagree, unless you were recording or catch some good evidence in your logs. Unless we require everyone to record and/or use logs when playing, most people wouldn't have this kind of evidence.

Someone has to make the final decision without GM intervention (they don't have time to arbitrate every dispute), and that person is obviously the camp owner. I am not sure how you would handle this situation otherwise, since the people who arrived have no ownership or claim on the camp currently, so their opinions are equally worthless compared to the current camp owner.

It wouldn't be fair to the camp owner if the people waiting in line somehow had more say on the matter than the current camp owner. Forcibly taking over a camp is camp stealing, and against the rules. That is basically what would end up happening if the people waiting in line could somehow overrule the current camp owner. If it was a vote, of course the current camp owner would get voted out lol.

So, actually I thought the rule was that a list was kept and you had to state who was second when asked and if you don't respond then the person who asked automatically gets the camp by default.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

None of that has to be like that. It could be very simple: if three people are waiting for the camp, they random and the winner takes it.

I think you missed my point. The method of determining who is in line is not relevant. The problem is who handles disputes when they arise, besides a GM?

Let's take your example and say three people are in line. They all /random to determine line order. But let's say the person who got third place in line honestly didn't get the /random messages from the other players and demands a re-roll. The other two players don't agree, and assume the third place player is attempting to initiate a re-roll to get a better position in line. Who settles this dispute? It can't be the three players attempting to determine line order, as they all have an equal stake in the line order. Their bias will probably affect any decision they make to find a resolution.

Either you require a GM at that point, or the owner of the camp becomes the deciding factor. No other person can take an elevated authority in this matter, as everybody in line has an equal stake in becoming the next camp owner. So you can't trust them to make a selfless decision when it comes to who should be next. I am not saying there aren't selfless people out there that will give up their spot, but it is more of the exception than the rule.

And please do not try and cite special camps like Ring 8 or Scout Tools. Those camps have special rules, and normally enough players are rolling to where people can come to a consensus as to who won. GMs probably are willing to handle a dispute for those camps than random camps as well, since there are special rules. Most camps only have a few players in line maximum, so it becomes more difficult to handle disputes, as it will often devolve into he-said she-said.

So, actually I thought the rule was that a list was kept and you had to state who was second when asked and if you don't respond then the person who asked automatically gets the camp by default.

Yes, that is the AFK rules in terms of being able to take a camp if no one responds. However, most people do not just instantly take a camp if you do not respond in 5 seconds. It is bad manners because people do sometimes go to the bathroom for a minute, and you would probably want the same courtesy. I already mentioned this earlier in the thread. You can potentially take a camp if everyone at the camp is AFK for too long. Ask the person/people if they are around and wait like 15 minutes. If you don't get a response, you have the right to take the camp. The other person/people will complain of course, but it doesn't matter. You should just record the person being AFK for 15 minutes, so you can use it as evidence later if elf laywering is needed.

Also, if multiple people are in line, usually they will tell you they are in line. Even if someone lies about line order, if they are there already when you get there, at minimum you are behind the responsive people.

Finally, I do not believe lines are a hard rule, other than the /list camps on Green. Lines are typically the most commonly agreed upon player rule that most people obey, but there is technically no requirement to enforce it lol. The only person that matters is the current camp owner, everybody else is just a potential camp owner. It's more of a gentleman's agreement that most people obey, because if you are too much of a dick people won't play with you, and also you would be pissed if someone else disobeyed the agreement.

TLDR: The owner of the camp gets to pick because disputes between potential camp owners do arise, and the GM's do not have time to handle every single dispute. They place the responsibility of the dispute on the camp owner, because he is the only one who doesn't have a stake in who gets the camp next. This makes sense, because the camp owner is already camping the item. GM's shouldn't need to get involved unless someone attempts to forcibly take the camp. Now, does this mean the camp owner can use that authority to get his buddies into the camp next? Yes it does, but there really isn't a way around that, unless you allow camp stealing to occur in fringe cases like this. I don't think you would want that lol.

[Samoht]

What is it with the attacks on Kittens dude? I mean, we get it, you think they're inferior and you dislike them and their casual ways.

Who attacked kittens? If you feel negative connotation for simply mentioning them, then that's on you not me.

But if you're posting this thread just because you think they cannot compete without idols, then that's just simply not true. They can't compete because I'm pretty sure that they actually have guild policies against competing.

If you want to actually raid, then you should probably find another guild that wants to raid instead of one that voluntarily sits on the sidelines.

And if there's any truth to this rumor that Riot officers are going to get to decide who gets to spend DKP and when, then there's going to be a lot of like-minded individuals out there also looking for guild pretty soon.

[loramin]

I think you missed my point. The method of determining who is in line is not relevant. The problem is who handles disputes when they arise, besides a GM?

Let's take your example and say three people are in line. They all /random to determine line order. But let's say the person who got third place in line honestly didn't get the /random messages from the other players and demands a re-roll. The other two players don't agree, and assume the third place player is attempting to initiate a re-roll to get a better position in line. Who settles this dispute? It can't be the three players attempting to determine line order, as they all have an equal stake in the line order. Their bias will probably affect any decision they make to find a resolution.

Either you require a GM at that point, or the owner of the camp becomes the deciding factor. No other person can take an elevated authority in this matter, as everybody in line has an equal stake in becoming the next camp owner. So you can't trust them to make a selfless decision when it comes to who should be next. I am not saying there aren't selfless people out there that will give up their spot, but it is more of the exception than the rule.

And please do not try and cite special camps like Ring 8 or Scout Tools. Those camps have special rules, and normally enough players are rolling to where people can come to a consensus as to who won. GMs probably are willing to handle a dispute for those camps than random camps as well, since there are special rules. Most camps only have a few players in line maximum, so it becomes more difficult to handle disputes, as it will often devolve into he-said she-said.


Let's say player #1 shows up and doesn't see player #2 already had the camp, so he takes it. How does it get resolved?

Answer: the same way as any dispute gets solved, ie. the same way the random roll would get resolved. If someone claims to not see the roll, too bad. If they try and take camp anyways, the other players petition and show screenshots of the roll.

You're trying to make this way more complex than it needs to be. Fundamentally nothing is any harder about having random rolls vs. getting to maintain (highly unclassic) monopolies.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Let's say player #1 shows up and doesn't see player #2 already had the camp, so he takes it. How does it get resolved?

Answer: the same way as any dispute gets solved, ie. the same way the random roll would get resolved. If someone claims to not see the roll, too bad. If they try and take camp anyways, the other players petition and show screenshots of the roll.

You're trying to make this way more complex than it needs to be. Fundamentally nothing is any harder about having random rolls vs. getting to maintain (highly unclassic) monopolies.

I am not making this complex. GM's simply do not want to handle every single dispute lol. If there are 3 random people in line, and one person disagrees with the roll, the only way to resolve it via a GM is the other two people must agree to take screenshots and send them out. Then you have to wait for a GM, who may not come. Because all three people in line don't know each other, who is to say one of them won't doctor their screenshot to make it look like they are first?

That is honestly way more messy and complex than just having the camp owner decide lol. You are asking the GM's to handle every single dispute simply because you want to avoid the possibility of favoritism between the camp owner and the people in line. Honestly there are no rules against that favoritism, as the only player who matters at the camp is the one camping the mob. Everybody else is just spectating or hanging out as far as the rules are concerned. Yes, people do have gentleman's agreements via lines (especially at long camps like Stormfeather), but as far as I know they are not actually enforceable. The only exception to this rule is the /list camps on Green.

[loramin]

I am not making this complex. GM's simply do not want to handle every single dispute lol. If there are 3 random people in line, and one person disagrees with the roll, the only way to resolve it via a GM is the other two people must agree to take screenshots and send them out. Then you have to wait for a GM, who may not come. Because all three people in line don't know each other, who is to say one of them won't doctor their screenshot to make it look like they are first?

That is honestly way more messy and complex than just having the camp owner decide lol. You are asking the GM's to handle every single dispute simply because you want to avoid the possibility of favoritism between the camp owner and the people in line. Honestly there are no rules against that favoritism, as the only player who matters at the camp is the one camping the mob. Everybody else is just spectating or hanging out as far as the rules are concerned. Yes, people do have gentleman's agreements via lines (especially at long camps like Stormfeather), but as far as I know they are not actually enforceable. The only exception to this rule is the /list camps on Green.

And if there are three people in line right now the exact same thing can happen. The point is, people will generally follow the rules, whatever they are (random or monopoly), and the staff will only come out in the rare cases when someone isn't following the rules.

But you also have to remember this is super rare: people don't monopolize 99% of the camps on P99.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

And if there are three people in line right now the exact same thing can happen. The point is, people will generally follow the rules, whatever they are (random or monopoly), and the staff will only come out in the rare cases when someone isn't following the rules.

But you also have to remember this is super rare: people don't monopolize 99% of the camps on P99.

Exactly. That is why the camp owner deciding who gets to take the camp makes the most sense. Most people follow the rules, most camps are not monopolized, and the majority of people in lines are strangers, or passing acquaintances. The camp owner is generally the most impartial party when deciding who gets to camp the mob next.

Obviously there are always exceptions to this, but as you can see in the rules, the staff have outlined the exceptions they deem fair. Unless they decide to include additional camps as exceptions, there is no problem with a group of players monopolizing a camp. It is part of the game you need to deal with.

[Zenren]

Who attacked kittens? If you feel negative connotation for simply mentioning them, then that's on you not me.

But if you're posting this thread just because you think they cannot compete without idols, then that's just simply not true. They can't compete because I'm pretty sure that they actually have guild policies against competing.

If you want to actually raid, then you should probably find another guild that wants to raid instead of one that voluntarily sits on the sidelines.

And if there's any truth to this rumor that Riot officers are going to get to decide who gets to spend DKP and when, then there's going to be a lot of like-minded individuals out there also looking for guild pretty soon.

Dude, saying "Please tell me he's in kittens" was derogatory. There was no playfulness, it was meant to infer they were inferior to the other guilds you mentioned, no one can read that any other way. There was no need to mention any guild period, which I hadn't done. A subtle insult is still an insult.

[Arvan]

uninstall, but keep reading the forums for the luls.

hope this helps

[Ravager]

Idols should have been nerfed a long time ago just like Ivandyr's Hoop. Make it a rarer drop and put a 2 second casting time on it.

As far as camp lockdowns, those are most definitely classic. It's not like there weren't no-life neckbeards in 1999. The options are the same now as they were then: Either move on and find something else to do, or hang around and annoy the crap out of them with your own no-life neckbeardiness until they get perturbed and leave.

[Zenren]

Idols should have been nerfed a long time ago just like Ivandyr's Hoop. Make it a rarer drop and put a 2 second casting time on it.

As far as camp lockdowns, those are most definitely classic. It's not like there weren't no-life neckbeards in 1999. The options are the same now as they were then: Either move on and find something else to do, or hang around and annoy the crap out of them with your own no-life neckbeardiness until they get perturbed and leave.

This isn't entirely true. GMs would move people on when they saw them at a camp for excessive periods of time. You couldn't just live at a camp 24/7. In regards to project 1999, if you alternated characters that would be one thing, but changing who is playing the same character is just stupid, there should be a time limit on how long one character can stay at a camp in my opinion. Again Everquest grew, Project 1999 is stopped in time. The design was never for people to live in the Velious environment for a decade. You have to adapt to how the players are changing the environment, or the environment doesn't work for anyone except the people without a job or any real responsibilities who are monopolizing spawns so they can control the end game content and economy.

[loramin]

Idols should have been nerfed a long time ago just like Ivandyr's Hoop. Make it a rarer drop and put a 2 second casting time on it.

As far as camp lockdowns, those are most definitely classic. It's not like there weren't no-life neckbeards in 1999. The options are the same now as they were then: Either move on and find something else to do, or hang around and annoy the crap out of them with your own no-life neckbeardiness until they get perturbed and leave.

Gee, if only we had the exact rulebook used by the GMs during the classic period to know that's not true ... oh wait, we do (https://wiki.project1999.com/Kunark_Era_Customer_Service_Guidelines#8.2.2_Disru ption_Procedures)!

(Emphasis added)

8.2.3 Contested Spawn Complaints
When a complaint is received indicating that a spawn or kill is contested, a disruption investigation should first be initiated according to the procedures of section 8.2.2 to determine if harassment or Zone/Area disruption is occurring. After following those procedures and issuing warnings as necessary, instruct the parties involved in the contested spawn situation to work out a compromise. Then leave the scene.

If another complaint is received involving the same spawn site, another disruption investigation should be initiated. After following those procedures and issuing warnings as necessary, if any of the parties involved were involved in the initial situation, establish a compromise for the parties to which the parties are required to abide. The compromise should be as described in section 8.2.3.1. Any party refusing to abide by the compromise established by the CS Representative should be issued a warning for disruption.

On PvP servers, where players can reach a solution to the contested spawn situation, the CS Representative does not need to require the players to share the spawn.

8.2.3.1
The compromise will require all parties to take turns killing the spawn(s). All parties involved in the contested spawn should be instructed to use /random 0 100 to choose a number. The CS Representative then uses /random 0 100. The individual with the closest number to the CS Representative’s number will be next in the rotation. The CS Representative then bases the rest of the rotation order on how close the other parties’ numbers were to theirs. The compromise established by a CS Representative must be objective and not require the CS Representative to choose one customer over another based on subjective criteria. The CS Representative is the arbiter in any disputes in establishing the compromise.

It even specifically references using /random to determine who gets the camp ... ie. exactly what I've been saying we should do here.

Again, our PnP are unclassic, but often necessarily so because of our all volunteer GMs. In this particular case however, it's unnecessarily unclassic.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

This isn't entirely true. GMs would move people on when they saw them at a camp for excessive periods of time. You couldn't just live at a camp 24/7. In regards to project 1999, if you alternated characters that would be one thing, but changing who is playing the same character is just stupid, there should be a time limit on how long one character can stay at a camp in my opinion. Again Everquest grew, Project 1999 is stopped in time. The design was never for people to live in the Velious environment for a decade. You have to adapt to how the players are changing the environment, or the environment doesn't work for anyone except the people without a job or any real responsibilities who are monopolizing spawns so they can control the end game content and economy.

Again, play TLP if you want instancing and easy shots at items. Non-instanced games are designed around scarcity. There isn't a problem with the current setup. The game is working as intended.

There will always be no lifer people in games, you can't fix that. The way most games dealt with it was instancing, but the charm of P99 is it is one of the few MMOs left without instancing. Seriously, go play literally every other MMO if you don't like non-instsancing. Trying to change P99 because you want it to be a different game is just selfish.


It even specifically references using /random to determine who gets the camp ... ie. exactly what I've been saying we should do here.

Again, our PnP are unclassic, but often necessarily so because of our all volunteer GMs. In this particular case however, it's unnecessarily unclassic.

Its not unecessarily unclassic. You already gave the reason for it's necessity. Unlike live, where they had paid GMs, our staff is volunteer. We need a PnP that incentivises people to act like adults and solve their own problems before requiring a GM. The camp owner is the best bet at an impartial party when solving a dispute.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Also Loramin, your /random idea is not the same as the guidebook. The guidebook has a GM present to arbitrate the /random. Your solution has no arbiter, just players /randoming and hoping everyone agrees. If that solution worked all the time, you wouldn't need GMs lol, because the players would be able to solve all of their own problems. The camp owner could be the arbiter though when looking at the /random idea in the guidebook, which is what's in the PnP rules already:)

[Ravager]

This isn't entirely true. GMs would move people on when they saw them at a camp for excessive periods of time. You couldn't just live at a camp 24/7. In regards to project 1999, if you alternated characters that would be one thing, but changing who is playing the same character is just stupid, there should be a time limit on how long one character can stay at a camp in my opinion. Again Everquest grew, Project 1999 is stopped in time. The design was never for people to live in the Velious environment for a decade. You have to adapt to how the players are changing the environment, or the environment doesn't work for anyone except the people without a job or any real responsibilities who are monopolizing spawns so they can control the end game content and economy.

Depended on what server you were on. Some servers' the GMs cared about fairness and fun more than others.

[Ravager]

Gee, if only we had the exact rulebook used by the GMs during the classic period to know that's not true ... oh wait, we do (https://wiki.project1999.com/Kunark_Era_Customer_Service_Guidelines#8.2.2_Disru ption_Procedures)!

(Emphasis added)



It even specifically references using /random to determine who gets the camp ... ie. exactly what I've been saying we should do here.

Again, our PnP are unclassic, but often necessarily so because of our all volunteer GMs. In this particular case however, it's unnecessarily unclassic.

Eh, post it in the bugs forum. It'll get patched in a year or two.

[Zenren]

Again, play TLP if you want instancing and easy shots at items. Non-instanced games are designed around scarcity. There isn't a problem with the current setup. The game is working as intended.

There will always be no lifer people in games, you can't fix that. The way most games dealt with it was instancing, but the charm of P99 is it is one of the few MMOs left without instancing. Seriously, go play literally every other MMO if you don't like non-instsancing. Trying to change P99 because you want it to be a different game is just selfish.



Its not unecessarily unclassic. You already gave the reason for it's necessity. Unlike live, where they had paid GMs, our staff is volunteer. We need a PnP that incentivises people to act like adults and solve their own problems before requiring a GM. The camp owner is the best bet at an impartial party when solving a dispute.

This is why normal people wont play this game, or leave shortly after starting. I've found that the majority, like 99% of the people that play Project 1999 are people who played back when they were young, and are trying to relive their youth, or people with no ability to pay for a subscription based game that play this in lieu of other free games. Normal people with responsibilities, even the ones who loved the game back then, skip it once they see the state of the game now. I think part of that is just the sheer difficulty of trying to get items, because money camps and raid items are consistently camped by the same guilds who are controlling the raid environment and economy. If you break that stranglehold then you allow everyone a piece of the pie, rather than the 3% of the server that can spend the time camping these locations.

[Ravager]

This is why normal people wont play this game, or leave shortly after starting. I've found that the majority, like 99% of the people that play Project 1999 are people who played back when they were young, and are trying to relive their youth, or people with no ability to pay for a subscription based game that play this in lieu of other free games. Normal people with responsibilities, even the ones who loved the game back then, skip it once they see the state of the game now. I think part of that is just the sheer difficulty of trying to get items, because money camps and raid items are consistently camped by the same guilds who are controlling the raid environment and economy. If you break that stranglehold then you allow everyone a piece of the pie, rather than the 3% of the server that can spend the time camping these locations.

The problem is the game isn't built for a population like this where everyone knows where the best stuff is and is capable of soloing it. There's plenty of camps in the game, but people only ever want to do the same 20 or 30 camps that have the best drops. Nobody's camping any of the loot in Dalnir or Runnyeye or Nurga or Paw or two dozen other dungeons because the loot distribution for the difficulty is crap.

If you really want the classic experience, stop crying about the couple dozen locked down cash camps and do some dungeon crawls in the empty zones with friends in cloth armor. That's way more fun than waiting for a rare drop on a 22 minute timer.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

This is why normal people wont play this game, or leave shortly after starting. I've found that the majority, like 99% of the people that play Project 1999 are people who played back when they were young, and are trying to relive their youth, or people with no ability to pay for a subscription based game that play this in lieu of other free games. Normal people with responsibilities, even the ones who loved the game back then, skip it once they see the state of the game now. I think part of that is just the sheer difficulty of trying to get items, because money camps and raid items are consistently camped by the same guilds who are controlling the raid environment and economy. If you break that stranglehold then you allow everyone a piece of the pie, rather than the 3% of the server that can spend the time camping these locations.

And it is fine that "normal" people don't play P99. Not everyone has to like or play P99. You even have the option to play TLP or Live if you want an Everquest-like experience with easy progression. Live has a freemium model if you are unable to afford 15 dollars a month for a subscription. In all honesty though, if you can't afford 15 dollars a month, you probably don't have time to play games anyway. At least not games like P99. Even if you put in rotations on everything, you would never get the item you want anyway. Rotations do not change the mob timers or item rarity, so you would still be waiting many hours at a time.

Obviously the majority of P99 players enjoy the non-instancing, or the server would have died years ago. You can't really claim most people on P99 agree with you. Ten years of non-instancing prove what players prefer.

Take a look at another game, Dark Souls. That game is purposefully challenging, which means it will turn off casual players. The game isn't meant for them, and that is completely fine. Dark Souls isn't going to change just because it can't satisfy everbody. Those players can find another game to match their playstyle and time requirements.

[Samoht]

This is why normal people wont play this game, or leave shortly after starting.

You're intentionally conflating two different topics in order to pretend like the raid scene is disturbing casual camps.

You have an agenda.

Please quit disguising your complaint about the raid scene with this passive shit about idol camp.

If you want to raid, join a guild of more like minded players.

Quit playing the victim and start playing the game.

[Jibartik]

because normal people want free shit and hate working and everquest is basically a scale model of real life so you dont get the former and have to do the latter.

[Ravager]

because normal people want free shit and hate working and everquest is basically a scale model of real life so you dont get the former and have to do the latter.

It's not work to play EverQuest. If you're breaking a sweat at your computer, see a doctor.

[loramin]

We need a PnP that incentivises people to act like adults and solve their own problems before requiring a GM.

How is asking two adults to random (without a GM) any different on that count? Two adults can /random to decide a camp just fine without a GM.

The camp owner is the best bet at an impartial party when solving a dispute.

:confused: That makes no sense: in the whole scenario we're talking about (monopolies) they are highly incentivized to award the camp to their guildmate: that's the opposite of impartial!

Also Loramin, your /random idea is not the same as the guidebook. The guidebook has a GM present to arbitrate the /random.

Right, but we have volunteer GMs so instead of making the GM come out (twice, if you read the guidebook) we'd just have people roll without them and settle it "like adults".

Your solution has no arbiter, just players /randoming and hoping everyone agrees.

No arbiters ... how about the GMs?

They won't have to be brought in 99% of the time, but on the rare occasions when someone acts like a child and doesn't play by the rules, they'd show ... exactly like the current system (only without monopolies).

[Bardp1999]

real easy fix - add a 5 second cast time to the idol and let the little piggies REEEEEEEEEEE all the way home

[Danth]

That game is purposefully challenging, which means it will turn off casual players.

You should not equate "casual" with "bad." I don't know anything about that other game, but in any case that's a bad look on an EQ forum since this is a game where even the most inept high-hours players can be and are carried to greatness by their unrestricted 100-man zerg raids.

-----------------------------------------------

If you aren't a high-hours player, then the best thing you can do is ignore the high-end entirely. Simply treat it like it doesn't exist. Stop caring about it. Once you do that, you realize nothing in the game is tuned to actually require high-end equipment and you can enjoy the rest of the game outside those few raid zones just fine. Temple Veeshan is really just a fancy mousetrap for people who can't say "No."

I say that despite thinking the general ruleset here is pretty bad. It is--but the game's large enough that it can be enjoyed anyway in spite of it.

Danth

[Arvan]

You're intentionally conflating two different topics in order to pretend like the raid scene is disturbing casual camps.

You have an agenda.

Please quit disguising your complaint about the raid scene with this passive shit about idol camp.

If you want to raid, join a guild of more like minded players.

Quit playing the victim and start playing the game.

No one wants to join zerg guilds full of narcissists hope this helps.

[Samoht]

No one wants to join zerg guilds full of narcissists hope this helps.

I mean just because you can't handle it doesn't mean no one else wants to. We've got dozens of apps that prove you wrong.

Your obsessive posting is making me laugh, tho. I've never seen anybody so wrong act like they're so right.

[Arvan]

I mean just because you can't handle it doesn't mean no one else wants to. We've got dozens of apps that prove you wrong.

Your obsessive posting is making me laugh, tho. I've never seen anybody so wrong act like they're so right.

Imagine being this out of touch

[Samoht]

Imagine being this out of touch

Imagine coming on the P99 forums to insult people for playing P99.

[Arvan]

Imagine coming on the P99 forums to insult people for playing P99.

Doesn't vanquish make a new rnf post every week insulting people? Grow up, child.

[cd288]

Doesn't vanquish make a new rnf post every week insulting people? Grow up, child.

Have to agree with this. I do not raid really but I do agree that if you’re in Vanquish you can’t really judge anyone for anything. Many of the members of Vanquish are some of the most toxic people on the entire server (Furoar, Detoxx, etc.).

[cd288]

This is why normal people wont play this game, or leave shortly after starting. I've found that the majority, like 99% of the people that play Project 1999 are people who played back when they were young, and are trying to relive their youth, or people with no ability to pay for a subscription based game that play this in lieu of other free games. Normal people with responsibilities, even the ones who loved the game back then, skip it once they see the state of the game now. I think part of that is just the sheer difficulty of trying to get items, because money camps and raid items are consistently camped by the same guilds who are controlling the raid environment and economy. If you break that stranglehold then you allow everyone a piece of the pie, rather than the 3% of the server that can spend the time camping these locations.

This is just totally an incorrect assessment of people on P99. I have plenty of responsibilities and still enjoy playing. Countless of people on the server are married, have kids, have extremely demanding jobs, etc. You seem like you’re just upset because you can’t have whatever you want whenever you want (which ironically makes you seem like a childish person and therefore not a “normal” person…).

Also, people playing P99 because they can’t afford a 10 dollar subscription to another MMO? Lmao what are you even talking about

[Samoht]

Doesn't vanquish make a new rnf post every week insulting people? Grow up, child.

VANQUISH doesn't make any posts. Some Vanquish MEMBERS are unhinged and post a lot of nonsense. I guess my point is, what does any of that have to do with me?


Why don't you grow up and quit judging an entire guild by the action of a few.

[cd288]

VANQUISH doesn't make any posts. Some Vanquish MEMBERS are unhinged and post a lot of nonsense. I guess my point is, what does any of that have to do with me?


Why don't you grow up and quit judging an entire guild by the action of a few.

Well generally you CAN judge an entire guild by its members if said guild takes no action against those members to stop them doing what they’re doing. So yes you can judge vanquish here.

You can also generally judge a guild based on its leaders. If you voluntarily choose to associate yourself with Furoar (and he’s not a leader but also Detoxx) then you need to take a hard look in the mirror

[Samoht]

Well generally you CAN judge an entire guild by its members if said guild takes no action against those members to stop them doing what they’re doing. So yes you can judge vanquish here.

Yeah, Vanquish doesn't censure their members.

You can also generally judge a guild based on its leaders. If you voluntarily choose to associate yourself with Furoar (and he’s not a leader but also Detoxx) then you need to take a hard look in the mirror

It's funny that people think so low of them, but after watching Arcler and Juicebox in the UN, it looks like you'll have to deal with flawed leaders in any of the top guilds on P99.

[cd288]

Yeah, Vanquish doesn't censure their members.



It's funny that people think so low of them, but after watching Arcler and Juicebox in the UN, it looks like you'll have to deal with flawed leaders in any of the top guilds on P99.

Lol so your argument is “you can’t judge us for being terrible people because other terrible people exist in the world”

Good one

[Samoht]

Lol so your argument is “you can’t judge us for being terrible people because other terrible people exist in the world”

Good one

What is your argument here? That you hate Detoxx and Furoar, but anybody disliking Arcler or Juicebox is some sort of paradox?

[MaCtastic]

Also, people playing P99 because they can’t afford a 10 dollar subscription to another MMO? Lmao what are you even talking about

The internet alone costs more than $10, unless you live in the basement, then maybe it would be free.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Firstly, with regard to the Detoxx/Vanquish/Aftermath etc. hate. Most people who do this haven't been in those guilds, or play with the people in them. They just jump on the hate bandwagon because it is cool. Or they are an opposing guild so they want to talk shit. Take what they say with a huge grain of salt:)

I have been in Aftermath, then the AG merger, then Vanquish. All of the people I have interacted with are fine. The guild dynamic reminds me of the old days of the internet, where people weren't afraid to have fun and talk some shit to each other. I understand these days people have become increasingly sensitive, so I get why some people are turned off. Much like P99 not being for everyone, not all guilds are for everyone. That doesn't make the people in them bad. The worst thing you can do in P99 is talk shit lol, it isn't like there are any real consequences. I am not saying there aren't assholes or idiots in the guild, but I don't really see them acting up when I am playing.

I haven't had any problems with Detoxx personally. He yelled at me once because I cost Aftermath an AoW due to me royally screwing up the CH chain. That is understandable in my book, that is a big mob to lose. But you know what? 5 minutes later he apologized, and thanked me for stepping up and being a part of the CH chain when other people wouldn't.

You should not equate "casual" with "bad." I don't know anything about that other game, but in any case that's a bad look on an EQ forum since this is a game where even the most inept high-hours players can be and are carried to greatness by their unrestricted 100-man zerg raids.

My intent wasn't to equate "casual" with "bad". I am not trying to be derogative at all when I say "casual". I was simply saying the casual gamer is generally one who doesn't want to play complex or time consuming games. They don't have the time to learn the game, they don't have the time to play the game, or they just want to relax when playing games instead of getting frustrated. There is nothing wrong with any of that.

When you are that type of gamer, that means there are games out there like Dark Souls (and P99 in my estimation), that are simply not for you. While P99 isn't the hardest game out there, it is still VERY time consuming, and it can be VERY frustrating with things like dying, due to the corpse run and experience loss. My point was simply that it is selfish to try and change games that are not for you to match your schedule. Not everyone is a casual gamer, and we shouldn't expect the game industry to make every single game cater to that group of players. Casual gamers these days are honestly really in luck, as most games now are designed to be more inclusive of player types. P99 is not that kind of game, and you should know that before getting into it. It doesn't make P99 bad, or require changing.

How is asking two adults to random (without a GM) any different on that count? Two adults can /random to decide a camp just fine without a GM.

:confused: That makes no sense: in the whole scenario we're talking about (monopolies) they are highly incentivized to award the camp to their guildmate: that's the opposite of impartial!

Right, but we have volunteer GMs so instead of making the GM come out (twice, if you read the guidebook) we'd just have people roll without them and settle it "like adults".

No arbiters ... how about the GMs?

They won't have to be brought in 99% of the time, but on the rare occasions when someone acts like a child and doesn't play by the rules, they'd show ... exactly like the current system (only without monopolies).

Finally, at Loramin. I am not sure what you are talking about here at all. You have made many points in this thread that should point you towards the truth as to why this rule exists. You are really bending backwards to try and keep your negative opinion towards the rule. Let me quote you from earlier:

This. The PnP are largely awesome, and when they're not it's usually because of a limit of our all-volunteer GM team.


And if there are three people in line right now the exact same thing can happen. The point is, people will generally follow the rules, whatever they are (random or monopoly), and the staff will only come out in the rare cases when someone isn't following the rules.

But you also have to remember this is super rare: people don't monopolize 99% of the camps on P99.

What you said here is correct. The rules of the server are designed around the GENERAL play of the game. Most camps are not monopolized, and most people follow the rules. Also, the staff is volunteer, which means they CANNOT act the way the paid GMs on live act. They don't have the time, and are not getting paid. This is why they encourage players to solve their own problems in the PnP, before asking for GM help. Who knows when/if a fully volunteer GM has time to help you?

The camp owner is the first arbiter in a dispute, because in general they are the only impartial party who can break a tie/disagreement. For most camps, the people waiting in line are strangers or passing acquaintances to each other. That is why the camp owner will generally be an impartial party. They don't know anyone in line, so they have no real bias towards one person or the other. The GMs ask this of the player base, so they don't need to come out over every little disagreement. You can't ask the people arguing about who is next to impartially come to a decision, as both parties are biased towards themselves being the new camp owner. That is why arbitration exists lol. If players could solve all of their problems themselves, we wouldn't need GMs. That is why your idea of /random being the end all be all is silly. People do disagree about /random, which means you can get into a situation where neither party is willing to compromise.

I am really not sure where you are getting the idea that two people in a dispute can always resolve their issues on their own. Asking "How is asking two adults to random (without a GM) any different on that count? Two adults can /random to decide a camp just fine without a GM." is like asking why we have a Court system in most countries. The answer is simple: when two people disagree on something and are unwilling to compromise, you need an outside party to help solve the dispute. On P99 you have two options for said outside party, another player or a GM. The GMs encourage players to act as arbiters first, so they don't have to come in themselves. It is like the tiered court system in the United States. The GMs are like the high courts, and the players are like the low courts. You take your issue to the low court first, and only move it up the chain when it can't be solved there.

I agree that this rule breaks down on the RARE occasion of a monopoly, as the supposed arbiter becomes biased towards his friends. That is why some camps, like Ring 8 and Scout Roll have special rules. Those are the exceptions to the camp owner being the arbiter rule. Unless the staff decide to add and enforce new exceptions, there is no problem with camp monopolies. As you said yourself, they are pretty rare anyway. No rule set is perfect, there will always be exceptions or ways around it. You cannot claim a rule sucks simply because there are a few rare cases where it breaks down.

[Bardp1999]

Did not read the post above but recommend a break from the game none the less

[YendorLootmonkey]

P99 is not that kind of game, and you should know that before getting into it. It doesn't make P99 bad, or require changing.

The argument can be made that P99 itself has nothing to do with friendliness towards the casual player, and the reason why it's "not that kind of game" is strictly because of a subset of players trying to be sweaty tryhards on an emulated server of a 23-year-old game.

If you remove players of that mindset from the game, P99 *could* be casual friendly.

Don't put that blame on P99.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

The argument can be made that P99 itself has nothing to do with friendliness towards the casual player, and the reason why it's "not that kind of game" is strictly because of a subset of players trying to be sweaty tryhards on an emulated server of a 23-year-old game.

If you remove players of that mindset from the game, P99 *could* be casual friendly.

Don't put that blame on P99.

No, P99 is not a casual friendly game. Why is this? No instancing. Even if you removed all of the try-hard players tomorrow, it wouldn't change the difficulty of the game for casual players. Spawn timers are still long, loot is rare, and popular camps will be camped during peak hours, which is when casual players generally play. If the majority of casual players play between 6pm-9pm, and most players become casual, then for all intents and purposes popular camps would still be inaccessible to them, as the lines would be too long to get through in just a few hours, unless you get insanely lucky with spawn and drop rates.

Instancing is how games have fixed the try-hard problem, but P99 will never enact instancing. Why? Because that takes P99 much closer to a direct competitor with the TLP servers. While P99 currently has a friendly relationship with the Everquest IP owners, that doesn't mean the Dev's can't piss them off lol.

Finally, most players do not want instancing anyway, and the proof is in P99 being alive for 10+ years.

Did not read the post above but recommend a break from the game none the less

Sorry you like having bad information:) Hope this helps. I honestly don't understand why people think they are hurting the other party when they say they haven't read what they wrote. It is just showing everybody you can't be bothered to engage with other people. How can anyone expect you to give a correct response to their post if you don't even read it lol? It reminds me of the kids in middle school who think they are cool because they are getting failing grades. If you can't be bothered to read, why do you bother to post?

[Skarne]

Shamwowi you're the best. I like your posts and guides.

I also appreciate Loramin.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Shamwowi you're the best. I like your posts and guides.

I also appreciate Loramin.

Thanks! I appreciate Loramin too, he's a good guy.

[Zenren]

I would have to disagree and say this is a casual game. Yes some things take time to complete, but it by no means is necessarily a hardcore game. I know many people, people with family and obligations playing this game, however I know of only about 3% of the players of this game that are controlling 99% of what goes on in the game. Truthfully I think the other 97% doesn't care or just accepts that as the norm, but my argument is that it doesn't have to be the norm. Break the hold, break the mold. Let it be a server for the majority and not the try hard minority.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

I would have to disagree and say this is a casual game. Yes some things take time to complete, but it by no means is necessarily a hardcore game. I know many people, people with family and obligations playing this game, however I know of only about 3% of the players of this game that are controlling 99% of what goes on in the game. Truthfully I think the other 97% doesn't care or just accepts that as the norm, but my argument is that it doesn't have to be the norm. Break the hold, break the mold. Let it be a server for the majority and not the try hard minority.

This is not a casual game at all. I am not sure why people believe this. My only guess is that most people who play P99 have played EQ before, so they can lean heavily on past experience. They also really want to play, so they are willing to overcome the hurtles that come with playing the game. Honestly this game is super overwhelming for someone who has never played before. The main reason why people with obligations can play this game somewhat casually is probably because they know this game quite well already, or they were able to play the game a lot before they got said obligations.

What does it take to play a casual mobile game?
1. Download the game onto your phone.
2. Open the game.
3. Press start, and get tons of hand-holding tutorials that teach you how to play the game as you progress.

What does it take to play P99?
1. Buy a super old game disc on Ebay.
2. Install the game.
3. Download and copy/paste the patch into the root directory of the game.
4. Sign up for two different accounts, one on EQEMU and one on P99.
5. Assuming you didn't screw up, start the game and get into the character screen.
6. Try to figure out what the hell is going on with the character screen, as it basically tells you nothing when it comes to classes, races, stats, deities, or starting cities.
7. Get into the game and read your starting note.
8. If you can manage to find your guild leader and give them the starting note, they say something like "welcome young warrior, heres your shit stained tunic!". Aaannnndd then you are on your own lol.
9. Look up tons of guides, maps, etc. to figure out how to play the game.
10. Quit because you are overwhelmed by all of this information you have to learn, with no in-game help, maps, etc. available.

Honestly Dark Souls is a much easier game to play as a casual player, and it is considered to be more of a hardcore game for hardcore players.

[cd288]

I would have to disagree and say this is a casual game. Yes some things take time to complete, but it by no means is necessarily a hardcore game. I know many people, people with family and obligations playing this game, however I know of only about 3% of the players of this game that are controlling 99% of what goes on in the game. Truthfully I think the other 97% doesn't care or just accepts that as the norm, but my argument is that it doesn't have to be the norm. Break the hold, break the mold. Let it be a server for the majority and not the try hard minority.

What are you even talking about? At this point I’m starting to think you’re purposefully trolling because no one could describe EQ that way and actually believe it. Also you don’t seem to know which way you want to argue. Earlier you claimed that no one with responsibilities could play this game. Now you’re saying many people you know have responsibilities and play this game.

Second, there’s almost nothing in this game outside of a select few epic quests that you can’t accomplish even if you’re not in the top guild. Seriously, like almost nothing. Maybe there’s some pieces of equipment that are perma camped that you might like to acquire but none of those things are critical.

Third, simply put it sounds like you don’t like classic EQ. I think you thought you did and then you got back into it and you’re realizing you don’t. That’s fine, go play on a different server then….there are plenty. Coming here and demanding that things change is like going to a pizza place and demanding they serve you Mexican food.

[loramin]

What you said here is correct. The rules of the server are designed around the GENERAL play of the game. Most camps are not monopolized, and most people follow the rules. Also, the staff is volunteer, which means they CANNOT act the way the paid GMs on live act. They don't have the time, and are not getting paid. This is why they encourage players to solve their own problems in the PnP, before asking for GM help. Who knows when/if a fully volunteer GM has time to help you?

The camp owner is the first arbiter in a dispute, because in general they are the only impartial party who can break a tie/disagreement. For most camps, the people waiting in line are strangers or passing acquaintances to each other. That is why the camp owner will generally be an impartial party. They don't know anyone in line, so they have no real bias towards one person or the other. The GMs ask this of the player base, so they don't need to come out over every little disagreement. You can't ask the people arguing about who is next to impartially come to a decision, as both parties are biased towards themselves being the new camp owner. That is why arbitration exists lol. If players could solve all of their problems themselves, we wouldn't need GMs. That is why your idea of /random being the end all be all is silly. People do disagree about /random, which means you can get into a situation where neither party is willing to compromise.

I am really not sure where you are getting the idea that two people in a dispute can always resolve their issues on their own. Asking "How is asking two adults to random (without a GM) any different on that count? Two adults can /random to decide a camp just fine without a GM." is like asking why we have a Court system in most countries. The answer is simple: when two people disagree on something and are unwilling to compromise, you need an outside party to help solve the dispute. On P99 you have two options for said outside party, another player or a GM. The GMs encourage players to act as arbiters first, so they don't have to come in themselves. It is like the tiered court system in the United States. The GMs are like the high courts, and the players are like the low courts. You take your issue to the low court first, and only move it up the chain when it can't be solved there.

I agree that this rule breaks down on the RARE occasion of a monopoly, as the supposed arbiter becomes biased towards his friends. That is why some camps, like Ring 8 and Scout Roll have special rules. Those are the exceptions to the camp owner being the arbiter rule. Unless the staff decide to add and enforce new exceptions, there is no problem with camp monopolies. As you said yourself, they are pretty rare anyway. No rule set is perfect, there will always be exceptions or ways around it. You cannot claim a rule sucks simply because there are a few rare cases where it breaks down.

Throughout this discussion you keep conflating two things:


the system people use without GM involvement, ie. "camp holder gives to whoever he wants" (ie. "monopoly") vs. "everyone waiting in line gets a roll" (ie. "pseudo-classic")?
if people don't do what they're supposed to, how do we resolve it?

The answer to #1 is separate from the answer to #2! In either case it's "the GMs step in". So let's talk about #1, without mixing #2 in.

Shamwowi you're the best. I like your posts and guides.

I also appreciate Loramin.

Thanks! I appreciate Loramin too, he's a good guy.

https://i.imgur.com/J1lVN6i.gif

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Throughout this discussion you keep conflating two things:


the system people use without GM involvement, ie. "camp holder gives to whoever he wants" (ie. "monopoly") vs. "everyone waiting in line gets a roll" (ie. "pseudo-classic")?
if people don't do what they're supposed to, how do we resolve it?

The answer to #1 is separate from the answer to #2! In either case it's "the GMs step in". So let's talk about #1, without mixing #2 in.


They are not separate. That is the point you are missing. The PnP IS the precursor to GM action. One must happen before the other, and therefore they are linked. If we had enough GMs to handle all disputes, we wouldn't need a PnP policy. All disagreements could just go through them. But that isn't how P99 works. Our volunteer staff doesn't have time to solve every issue.

In a normal situation, this is what happens:
Person A, B, and C have a dispute. They manage to solve it themselves through whatever method they agree upon. This has nothing to do with the PnP policy, because no arbitration was needed. You don't need to enforce a specific method (i.e. /random) in this situation, because the parties involved are able to solve the issue however they deem fair. No GM action is needed.

In a less common situation, this is what happens:
Person A, B and C have a dispute. They can't solve it, so the camp owner steps in and arbitrates. Since most people follow the rules (you said it yourself), they will respect the PnP policy that promotes the camp owner to the arbiter role. The camp owner makes an impartial decision the other parties must agree upon. No GM action is needed.

In the least common situation, this is what happens:
Person A, B and C have a dispute. Either there is no camp owner at the time, or they don't listen to the camp owner. THEN it goes to a GM, because there are no arbiters around that the involved parties will listen to.

This is the entire point of the rule and PnP. The GMs have put in an extra step (and extra responsibility) on the camp owner to act as an arbiter to solve the issue before it needs to be escalated. The PnP policy only applies when a dispute cannot be resolved by the parties involved. If everybody could solve their problems without an arbiter, we wouldn't need a PnP policy at all, and GMs would only need to worry about helping people with bugs.

You yourself said 99% of camps are not monopolized. You are using the 1% exception to claim the entire rule is folly, which doesn't make sense. The rule is for the 99% of camps that are not being monopolized. And for a few camps that are HEAVILY contested, such as Ring 8 Roll and Scout Roll, they HAVE put in exceptions to this rule, because they know the camp owner would not be impartial. The rule works for 99% of camps, and for the other 1%, they have exceptions.

Just because you don't like the fact that one or two camps are monopolized without an exception does not make the whole entire rule pointless. If the GMs think those camps shouldn't be monopolized, they will add new exceptions. Ring 8 and Scout Roll prove the GMs do believe some camps are too congested to trust the camp owner to fairly arbitrate. Otherwise it is a perfectly valid strategy, and not against the rules. On a non-instanced server, scarcity is a reality players have to cope with.

[Arvan]

stop being greedy little goblins and be sharing friendly elfs problem solved

[Samoht]

stop being greedy little goblins and be sharing friendly elfs problem solved

What are you going to do about it? Add idol camp to the draft week?

[Arvan]

What are you going to do about it? Add idol camp to the draft week?

What are you going to do about it?

[Zenren]

What are you even talking about? At this point I’m starting to think you’re purposefully trolling because no one could describe EQ that way and actually believe it. Also you don’t seem to know which way you want to argue. Earlier you claimed that no one with responsibilities could play this game. Now you’re saying many people you know have responsibilities and play this game.

Second, there’s almost nothing in this game outside of a select few epic quests that you can’t accomplish even if you’re not in the top guild. Seriously, like almost nothing. Maybe there’s some pieces of equipment that are perma camped that you might like to acquire but none of those things are critical.

Third, simply put it sounds like you don’t like classic EQ. I think you thought you did and then you got back into it and you’re realizing you don’t. That’s fine, go play on a different server then….there are plenty. Coming here and demanding that things change is like going to a pizza place and demanding they serve you Mexican food.

I still agree the vast majority have no responsibilities (60-70%). I can't name the number of people I know retired, unemployed, or on disability that play this game. However I've never described Everquest as "hardcore", rather it's a time sink. You don't need to be particularly intelligent to play well, most of the mechanics are fairly straight forward. With that said I have a lot of friends in the game with family, jobs, and responsibilities that play. They might not get from 1-50 in two weeks like the try-hards, but they play. Something can be more than one thing at the same time. My point was that the argument that these people camping were performing some arduous task only fit for the dedicated try-hard isn't true. A lot of casuals are willing to set a timer and camp a spot if it's something they need or can sell to buy something they need, however they aren't given that opportunity because 3% of the people playing are the uber try-hards that just take those spots 24/7, because this game seems to be their primary responsibility. My suggestion again is to rotate those camps, don't let the same account sit at the same spawn for eternity. Break the hold, break the mold.

[Samoht]

A lot of casuals are willing to set a timer and camp a spot if it's something they need or can sell to buy something they need, however they aren't given that opportunity because 3% of the people playing are the uber try-hards that just take those spots 24/7, because this game seems to be their primary responsibility. My suggestion again is to rotate those camps, don't let the same account sit at the same spawn for eternity. Break the hold, break the mold.

Oh, are you still pretending like idol is a camp you need? Or am I right that you just want to sell idols to the guilds that use them? You did mention selling the item, so I'm guessing that that's all this thread is about:

Someone bitching that they can't get idols to sell to raiding guilds.

[cd288]

I still agree the vast majority have no responsibilities (60-70%). I can't name the number of people I know retired, unemployed, or on disability that play this game. However I've never described Everquest as "hardcore", rather it's a time sink. You don't need to be particularly intelligent to play well, most of the mechanics are fairly straight forward. With that said I have a lot of friends in the game with family, jobs, and responsibilities that play. They might not get from 1-50 in two weeks like the try-hards, but they play. Something can be more than one thing at the same time. My point was that the argument that these people camping were performing some arduous task only fit for the dedicated try-hard isn't true. A lot of casuals are willing to set a timer and camp a spot if it's something they need or can sell to buy something they need, however they aren't given that opportunity because 3% of the people playing are the uber try-hards that just take those spots 24/7, because this game seems to be their primary responsibility. My suggestion again is to rotate those camps, don't let the same account sit at the same spawn for eternity. Break the hold, break the mold.

Again, this is classic EQ. If you don’t like classic EQ go play somewhere else.

If you want to farm platinum (I.e. farm idols to sell) there are plenty of places you can do that

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Yeah Zenren at this point should just come out and say he wants camp rotations for whatever camp(s) he wants lol. He won't get it, but that is his opinion. He really shouldn't be playing this game if he wants uncontested easy loot. That is not P99. Non-instanced servers are designed around scarcity and player cooperation.

It is factually incorrect that most good camps are monopolized by a few people. "Casual" players can camp most items just fine. Even super lucrative camps like Fungi Tunic are not camped all the time. You can certainly get a group and go down there if it is not currently taken. Zenren is obviously talking about a specific camp that he is annoyed about, probably Shiny Brass Idol or maybe Scepter of the Forlorn. I am not sure why he cares so much about these camps, as those items aren't really necessary for casual play.

Sure, Shiny Brass Idol can save your life, but if you are a casual, you are probably playing in a zone where it is easy to get a cleric to your corpse. It isn't really necessary, and there are other life saving items out there that are better, like WC cap. Scepter of the Forlorn can be cool if you need snare on specific mobs as a casual, but there are other easy to get items like https://wiki.project1999.com/Ball_of_Burlap_Yarn that aren't perma-camped. Scepter is useful in raids due to it's instant cast, but Ball of Burlap Yarn has the superior snare, and it isn't lore.

If you are simply trying to sell the item because it is easy to camp, then you are out of luck lol. There are plenty of places in P99 to farm money. Idol camp honestly isn't that great money-wise unless you get really lucky. If you are getting 1 idol every 3 hours (which is pretty good for that camp), you are making like 200pp an hour, not including sell time. You can make 250pp an hour roughly just killing guards for fine steel weapons, and you get experience to boot if you are in the level range, whereas Shiny Brass Idol is a low level monster.

Finally, calling P99 a casual game is just silly. What are you comparing it to? If you are trying to say Everquest wasn't the toughest MMO during the early 2000s, I would agree with you. If your standard of casual player is someone from the year 2000, then yeah casual players back then were more hardcore than players today. If you compare P99 to modern MMO's, it is a hardcore game. The definition of casual gamer has changed over the years, and points more towards convenience and time saving. Everquest has neither of those things lol. Difficulty is not the only factor when considering if a game is casual friendly or not. Again, look at Dark Souls, which people consider more hardcore. It isn't actually as tough as everyone says it is, it just takes more practice than other games to get the hang of it. P99 is similar. While it isn't that difficult once you learn the game, the initial learning curve is quite steep, and can be very time consuming. Most casual players in 2022 who have never played Everquest before would not want to play P99.

[loramin]

Again, this is classic EQ. If you don’t like classic EQ go play somewhere else.

As we already established, in "classic EQ" there were no monopolies. Monopolies are 100% an unclassic P99 thing.

And to Alarti's point, the Idol camp is not the only P99 monopoly. Another example would be the CE camp in Seb, which was monopolized for weeks on Green by a guild.
They are not separate. That is the point you are missing. The PnP IS the precursor to GM action. One must happen before the other, and therefore they are linked. If we had enough GMs to handle all disputes, we wouldn't need a PnP policy. All disagreements could just go through them. But that isn't how P99 works. Our volunteer staff doesn't have time to solve every issue.

In a normal situation, this is what happens:
Person A, B, and C have a dispute. They manage to solve it themselves through whatever method they agree upon. This has nothing to do with the PnP policy, because no arbitration was needed. You don't need to enforce a specific method (i.e. /random) in this situation, because the parties involved are able to solve the issue however they deem fair. No GM action is needed.

In a less common situation, this is what happens:
Person A, B and C have a dispute. They can't solve it, so the camp owner steps in and arbitrates. Since most people follow the rules (you said it yourself), they will respect the PnP policy that promotes the camp owner to the arbiter role. The camp owner makes an impartial decision the other parties must agree upon. No GM action is needed.

In the least common situation, this is what happens:
Person A, B and C have a dispute. Either there is no camp owner at the time, or they don't listen to the camp owner. THEN it goes to a GM, because there are no arbiters around that the involved parties will listen to.

This is the entire point of the rule and PnP. The GMs have put in an extra step (and extra responsibility) on the camp owner to act as an arbiter to solve the issue before it needs to be escalated. The PnP policy only applies when a dispute cannot be resolved by the parties involved. If everybody could solve their problems without an arbiter, we wouldn't need a PnP policy at all, and GMs would only need to worry about helping people with bugs.

You yourself said 99% of camps are not monopolized. You are using the 1% exception to claim the entire rule is folly, which doesn't make sense. The rule is for the 99% of camps that are not being monopolized. And for a few camps that are HEAVILY contested, such as Ring 8 Roll and Scout Roll, they HAVE put in exceptions to this rule, because they know the camp owner would not be impartial. The rule works for 99% of camps, and for the other 1%, they have exceptions.

Just because you don't like the fact that one or two camps are monopolized without an exception does not make the whole entire rule pointless. If the GMs think those camps shouldn't be monopolized, they will add new exceptions. Ring 8 and Scout Roll prove the GMs do believe some camps are too congested to trust the camp owner to fairly arbitrate. Otherwise it is a perfectly valid strategy, and not against the rules. On a non-instanced server, scarcity is a reality players have to cope with.

https://i.imgur.com/5S4RfCR.png

Seriously, you have got to learn to express your ideas without writing essays. This will be my last response to you unless you can write forum posts like a human and not like a NY Times column.

But to your point, you've still failed to show how either system requires more GM involvement. And switching to a random system would have a much bigger bonus than just eliminating monopolies:

It would make this place more classic!

(which, if you look in the upper-left corner, is the entire goal of P99).

[DeathsSilkyMist]

As we already established, in "classic EQ" there were no monopolies. Monopolies are 100% an unclassic P99 thing.

And to Alarti's point, the Idol camp is not the only P99 monopoly. Another example would be the CE camp in Seb, which was monopolized for weeks on Green by a guild.

Seriously, you have got to learn to express your ideas without writing essays. This will be my last response to you unless you can write forum posts like a human and not like a NY Times column.

But to your point, you've still failed to show how either system requires more GM involvement. And switching to a random system would have a much bigger bonus than just eliminating monopolies:

It would make this place more classic!

(which, if you look in the upper-left corner, is the entire goal of P99).

Firstly, claiming monopolies are not classic is basically irrelevant, as P99 is not classic. The only reason why monopolies weren't as common on live was because people had less knowledge of the game as to what items were good or bad, and expansions were coming out fast enough to where people had to move on to the next best camps anyway. As more and more camps came online, and items in general became more homogenous, there was no point in perma-camping something. Since P99 is time locked to the first two expansions 20 years later, people have to work with the limited camps and good items we have available. P99 also has custom (non classic) raiding rules that make certain items more desirable than they would have been on live.

Secondly, adding one more camp to the like 5 camps that are monopolized isn't helping your case. As you said yourself, 99% of camps are not monopolized, so whether that number is 5 camps or 6, it isn't generally a problem, and Shiny Brass Idol isn't even that great of an item outside of raiding lol. The camp owner rule is designed for the 99% of camps that aren't monopolized, I am really not sure how you can miss this obvious point, other than willful ignorance.

Thirdly, I have not failed at all. You have simply admitted you have not been reading my posts, which has been pretty obvious to be honest. Please don't bother chiming in to a conversation if you can't be bothered to participate, it just makes you look silly. You yourself have given all the evidence needed to prove my point that the camp owner rule is valid, you just don't want to see it because you simply don't like the rule. You can certainly have that opinion, but you are wrong:)

Finally, it is not possible to write complex ideas into a few terse sentences. Why? Because human beings can interpret words in many different ways. It is why people write books, rather than sentences lol. The more descriptive and clear I can be, the better you will understand my point. If you can't be bothered to read, why bother to post? Your post based on half-read, half-understood knowledge is basically going to be nonsensical most of the time.

EDIT: Also, I think you missed my entire point. The PnP is designed to avoid GM involvement. That is why you don't get GM involvement lol. But because the PnP is designed to try and avoid GM involvement, you cannot fully separate it from the idea of GM involvement, as you have been trying so hard to do. That is why the camp owner arbiter rule exists, the camp owner acts in place of a GM to try and avoid GM involvement.

[cd288]

As we already established, in "classic EQ" there were no monopolies. Monopolies are 100% an unclassic P99 thing.

And to Alarti's point, the Idol camp is not the only P99 monopoly. Another example would be the CE camp in Seb, which was monopolized for weeks on Green by a guild.


https://i.imgur.com/5S4RfCR.png

Seriously, you have got to learn to express your ideas without writing essays. This will be my last response to you unless you can write forum posts like a human and not like a NY Times column.

But to your point, you've still failed to show how either system requires more GM involvement. And switching to a random system would have a much bigger bonus than just eliminating monopolies:

It would make this place more classic!

(which, if you look in the upper-left corner, is the entire goal of P99).

Um no you’re actually completely wrong. As usual you state your own opinions as fact. I fielded plenty of petitions when I was CSR in era complaining about someone monopolizing a camp for very long periods of time.

What you didn’t have in era were so many different camps being monopolized. You didn’t have the raid meta that we do today so there were many camps that no one bothered monopolizing

[Zenren]

So here's how these camps work now...

"Just got my idol, someone come out and replace me."
"I'll be right there."
"Cool. There's some <whatever guild I don't like> scrub here right now, so hurry it up."
"I'm here."
In chat- Sorry man he had the camp after me.

How is that fair? There should be a list for these camps like every other camp. If you leave the next person on that list should get the camp. You should have to declare when someone messages you who is next in line and if you fail to within a timely manner, then they automatically get the spot when you leave. You should not be able to hand down a camp in perpetuity, never giving another person/guild a chance at that camp. This is the fair way to manage a camp and there should also be a time limit for how long you can remain at a camp farming. You should not be able to stay til your bags are full if the item is needed by a lot of people. Monopolies are not classic and were never intended to happen, regardless of how the game is today.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

So here's how these camps work now...

"Just got my idol, someone come out and replace me."
"I'll be right there."
"Cool. There's some <whatever guild I don't like> scrub here right now, so hurry it up."
"I'm here."
In chat- Sorry man he had the camp after me.

How is that fair? There should be a list for these camps like every other camp. If you leave the next person on that list should get the camp. You should have to declare when someone messages you who is next in line and if you fail to within a timely manner, then they automatically get the spot when you leave. You should not be able to hand down a camp in perpetuity, never giving another person/guild a chance at that camp. This is the fair way to manage a camp and there should also be a time limit for how long you can remain at a camp farming. You should not be able to stay til your bags are full if the item is needed by a lot of people. Monopolies are not classic and were never intended to happen, regardless of how the game is today.

It's not fair, and that's fine. P99 is not designed to be an easy loot train where nothing matters like most MMOs. P99 can be unfair, and that is one of the charms of it. If you want fair go play another MMO with instancing, you've got the option of basically every other MMO out there.

If you want a shot at the camp, wait there and look for an opening, as I said before. The camping party does make mistakes, and you can swoop in if you catch them being AFK for too long.

[strongNpretty]

How i picture some douche bags around here entering camps that they don't own or have rights to.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b8zO_DV09QE

[Ripqozko]

How i picture some douche bags around here entering camps that they don't own or have rights to.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b8zO_DV09QE

How I picture a guy that failed all 3 servers

[strongNpretty]

How I picture a guy that failed all 3 servers

I'm still not quite understanding where the hurtful part of your typical comment is? Saying I have more priorities in life than I do time to play vs you having no priorities in life, and more than enough time to play..

I guess as an adult, i'm not quite sure why you think that's considered winning? It's very confusing to me.

By all means i'm not here to make fun of you cause you have insane amounts of playtime.. It's more to to educate you, that i'm not quite sure where you think this is humiliating to somebody?

How much time you have today? I'm available to listen to your problems if you need-

[Zenren]

It's not fair, and that's fine. P99 is not designed to be an easy loot train where nothing matters like most MMOs. P99 can be unfair, and that is one of the charms of it. If you want fair go play another MMO with instancing, you've got the option of basically every other MMO out there.

If you want a shot at the camp, wait there and look for an opening, as I said before. The camping party does make mistakes, and you can swoop in if you catch them being AFK for too long.

So your argument sounds a bit masochistic and I don't think represents the majority, but rather the small minority that benefit from the current camp rules.

[cd288]

So here's how these camps work now...

"Just got my idol, someone come out and replace me."
"I'll be right there."
"Cool. There's some <whatever guild I don't like> scrub here right now, so hurry it up."
"I'm here."
In chat- Sorry man he had the camp after me.

How is that fair? There should be a list for these camps like every other camp. If you leave the next person on that list should get the camp. You should have to declare when someone messages you who is next in line and if you fail to within a timely manner, then they automatically get the spot when you leave. You should not be able to hand down a camp in perpetuity, never giving another person/guild a chance at that camp. This is the fair way to manage a camp and there should also be a time limit for how long you can remain at a camp farming. You should not be able to stay til your bags are full if the item is needed by a lot of people. Monopolies are not classic and were never intended to happen, regardless of how the game is today.

First off, no you can’t tell someone to leave after they get a drop. You are allowed to farm the camp as long as you want if it’s your camp. That’s classic EQ. If you don’t like it go play somewhere else and quit whining here (I’d note this rule also will advantage you when you get the camp that you’re trying to get right now because you want to farm idols to sell to raid guilds).

Second, with respect to lists sure if you go to the camp and ask if there’s a list and they say yes they have to tell you who is ahead of you. That’s always been a rule. If they say there’s currently no list then you are entitled to say ok I’m next and wait until they are done with the camp and then take it for yourself; what you’re not entitled to do in that situation is say okay then I’m next and then go off into the world doing whatever you want and expect the person at the camp to wait until you get there to hand it off to you. When the person is done and you’re next on the list you get the camp if you’re there to take it…they can of course decide to be nice and wait until you get there to pass it to you, but they have no obligation to do so once they’re done with the camp…if you’re not there then you can lose the camp to the person behind you.

Imagine posting all these whiney comments because you’re upset someone else is farming the items to sell to raiding guilds and so you’re missing out on price gouging raiders for it. Are you an adult????

[Samoht]

You're so focused on this one camp that you're trying to act like this happens everywhere else.

It doesn't.

Build a bridge and get over the idol camp. Raiding guilds don't need you to sell idols to them one at a time.

Find somewhere else to make 500pp.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

So your argument sounds a bit masochistic and I don't think represents the majority, but rather the small minority that benefit from the current camp rules.

I really don't understand where you get this presumption everybody is on your side. People have been asking for instancing for many years before you started posting here, and it hasn't happened.

Obviously those people are in the minority, or you would see instancing or lists/rotations everywhere. The evidence factually does not support your argument. Can you show me the data to support the idea most people agree with you?

Also, the majority of camps are not monopolized, so the majority of players do benefit from the current camp rules.

I am not sure why you care so much about one monopolized camp that isn't even necessary for 95% of the game's content. It isn't even strictly required for raiding, you could make due without it.

Finally, it is not masochistic to want a non-instanced game with unfair mechanics. That was a fairly common game design practice for the time. Some people like the game design of older games, including myself. I am not a fan of every MMO being an instanced WoW clone. They are boring and you get no feeling of accomplishment.

Let me ask you, why are you so opposed to playing TLP? It will fit your idea of fairness perfectly, and you get to play Everquest at the same time.

[Zenren]

It is absolutely not just the Idol Camp. There are a lot of camps monopolized by the same player/guild 99% of the time. This isn't conjecture, but factual. This needs to change. One person/guild should not have the ability to monopolize the game play, simply because they can keep handing the camp over to the next in line. My feeling is that the rule should be, create a list, keep to the list, and if the next person on the list isn't able to respond in 10 minutes once the camp is up, then they lose their position on the list. This would prevent bat signaling and monopolization. It's a very simple fix.

[Jibartik]

the thing is eventually they die of loserness or their crypto investment blows up and then they move on.

So no mater how much it seems like there is always 1 guy doing 1 thing forever, it's just like the seasons, that guy will go away and then YOU can be the guy. That's what happens.

[Samoht]

It is absolutely not just the Idol Camp. There are a lot of camps monopolized by the same player/guild 99% of the time. This isn't conjecture, but factual. This needs to change. One person/guild should not have the ability to monopolize the game play, simply because they can keep handing the camp over to the next in line. My feeling is that the rule should be, create a list, keep to the list, and if the next person on the list isn't able to respond in 10 minutes once the camp is up, then they lose their position on the list. This would prevent bat signaling and monopolization. It's a very simple fix.

Nah, you're lying. You don't have any examples except idol, so I don't believe you.

Nobody else is going to believe you, either.

[Ripqozko]

Nah, you're lying. You don't have any examples except idol, so I don't believe you.

Nobody else is going to believe you, either.

King in warrens

[DeathsSilkyMist]

It is absolutely not just the Idol Camp. There are a lot of camps monopolized by the same player/guild 99% of the time. This isn't conjecture, but factual. This needs to change. One person/guild should not have the ability to monopolize the game play, simply because they can keep handing the camp over to the next in line. My feeling is that the rule should be, create a list, keep to the list, and if the next person on the list isn't able to respond in 10 minutes once the camp is up, then they lose their position on the list. This would prevent bat signaling and monopolization. It's a very simple fix.

Yeah please come up with a list of camps you think this is happening to besides Shiny Brass Idol and Scepter of the Forlorn please. Simply claiming something as fact doesn't make it so. Right now you have nothing but conjecture. I have been playing on this server for years, and the number of monopolized camps has always been pretty small. It has just shifted a bit over the years based on items nerfs or rule changes. Remember that this forum is about blue server, so talking about legacy /list camps on Green is irrelevant.

[Jibartik]

Clark! Thats the guy.

Everyone thought he'd never leave but he did.

[Zenren]

Rather than list other camps, why don't we just ask, what if it is just these two camps and no other? Shouldn't these camps be available to everyone who shows up and not just the one guild camping both all the time? Its not even numbers, because other guilds have as many players or more, it's just they got there first and now dictate who takes over when they're done because they have enough players to monopolize (and support the practice in this thread). It needs to change or the items need to be made lore. Something to make it less lucrative for one person to stay forever or guilds to perma-camp these spots.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Rather than list other camps, why don't we just ask, what if it is just these two camps and no other? Shouldn't these camps be available to everyone who shows up and not just the one guild camping both all the time? Its not even numbers, because other guilds have as many players or more, it's just they got there first and now dictate who takes over when they're done because they have enough players to monopolize (and support the practice in this thread). It needs to change or the items need to be made lore. Something to make it less lucrative for one person to stay forever or guilds to perma-camp these spots.

No. List the other camps or admit your previous points are pure conjecture. Your argument is falling appart, with nothing left but your opinion. It is fine to have an opinion. But yours is the small minority, which is why most people disagree with you here.

[Ripqozko]

No. List the other camps or admit your previous points are pure conjecture. Your argument is falling appart, with nothing left but your opinion. It is fine to have an opinion. But yours is the small minority, which is why most people disagree with you here.

King in warrens

[DeathsSilkyMist]

King in warrens

I already mentioned that, it is the Scepter of the forlorn camp.

[Ripqozko]

I already mentioned that, it is the Scepter of the forlorn camp.

And idol, that's more then one at least, also no one is reading y'all's wall of text

[DeathsSilkyMist]

And idol, that's more then one at least, also no one is reading y'all's wall of text

If you don't read don't post lol. Scepter and idol camps were the ones we have been talking about for pages now.

[loramin]

Um no you’re actually completely wrong. As usual you state your own opinions as fact. I fielded plenty of petitions when I was CSR in era complaining about someone monopolizing a camp for very long periods of time.

What you didn’t have in era were so many different camps being monopolized. You didn’t have the raid meta that we do today so there were many camps that no one bothered monopolizing

Hmmm, there's your supposed experience, and there's the rulebook you were supposed to be following (https://wiki.project1999.com/Kunark_Era_Customer_Service_Guidelines#8.2.2_Disru ption_Procedures): which should I believe?

Or am I just supposed to believe that you AND all other GMs ignored your own rulebook?

But I do agree that the meta here is completely different ... however, I'll continue to argue we should handle that unclassic meta in the most classic way possible.

[loramin]

If you don't read don't post lol. Scepter and idol camps were the ones we have been talking about for pages now.

Dude, you write essays like you're working on your dissertation ... in a forum where everyone else is just talking about a computer game. Learn to express your thoughts in 100 words instead of 10,000 and maybe people would actually be able to meaningfully dialogue with you.

[Ripqozko]

If you don't read don't post lol. Scepter and idol camps were the ones we have been talking about for pages now.

No one gonna read y'all's 10 page dissertation, hope that helps.

[Master Roshi]

Is this really 11 pages about Idol/Scepter being over-camped? It's the current meta.

Anyone remember perma locking down Lynuga for Hoops? This sort of stuff has been going on since Blue went live, if you want a camp you have to stake it out and jump on it.

Asking for a list is dumb, whoever has the camp will probably just tell you you're #45 on the list just to shut you up, and there's enough Riot / Vanq members to actually follow-through on that number tbh.

[loramin]

Is this really 11 pages about Idol/Scepter being over-camped? It's the current meta.

Anyone remember perma locking down Lynuga for Hoops? This sort of stuff has been going on since Blue went live, if you want a camp you have to stake it out and jump on it.

Asking for a list is dumb, whoever has the camp will probably just tell you you're #45 on the list just to shut you up, and there's enough Riot / Vanq members to actually follow-through on that number tbh.

Blue also has had LOTS of other unclassic things in it's history: remember Chardok AoE?

Just because things are bad/unclassic, it doesn't mean they can't get better/more classic.

[Zenren]

Is this really 11 pages about Idol/Scepter being over-camped? It's the current meta.

Anyone remember perma locking down Lynuga for Hoops? This sort of stuff has been going on since Blue went live, if you want a camp you have to stake it out and jump on it.

Asking for a list is dumb, whoever has the camp will probably just tell you you're #45 on the list just to shut you up, and there's enough Riot / Vanq members to actually follow-through on that number tbh.

Great and when they don't appear before the set time, i.e. ten minutes, then they forfeit the camp and the person present takes it. See no monopoly by one or two guilds. Great solution in my opinion.

[Samoht]

Let me summarize: OP is a liar, as ulterior motives, has been found out and refuses to share them. Zero credibility, but still crying.

[cd288]

Hmmm, there's your supposed experience, and there's the rulebook you were supposed to be following (https://wiki.project1999.com/Kunark_Era_Customer_Service_Guidelines#8.2.2_Disru ption_Procedures): which should I believe?

Or am I just supposed to believe that you AND all other GMs ignored your own rulebook?

But I do agree that the meta here is completely different ... however, I'll continue to argue we should handle that unclassic meta in the most classic way possible.

There were other possible outcomes other than the take turns based on a random roll. For example, if there was already a player made list running then people have compromised. Even if that list is made up of a ton of the same guild as long as someone else can technically be added to it then that was acceptable. If you were camping for a specific item and you were there first we almost never required any sort of sharing; you were there first the other person can wait in line as long as you didn’t try to skip them in the line by giving the camp to your friend or guildy if they weren’t ahead of the person on the list.

Contested spawn as disruption more frequently applied to broader camps like one person trying monopolize say, all of Orc 1 (simple example but it has happened). Then you’d have to reach a compromise or we would enforce an order or other sort of compromise. It was rarely used for a single spawn camp for an item (also as the expansions came out you had a lot of those really valuable items being lore so you couldn’t stay there forever farming it - we generally considered corpsing to be a disruption so in that sense we also prevented monopolies, but other than that it was pretty rare to show up at a single spawn camp and tell someone they had to share before they were done).

[Zenren]

Let me summarize: OP is a liar, as ulterior motives, has been found out and refuses to share them. Zero credibility, but still crying.

Is this really okay on this forum? I thought personal attacks violated the forum policies?

EDIT- Just read the rules and figured out their looser than a Chan. Since I avoid Chans because of their toxicity, I'm going to avoid this forum as well. Freedom of Speech is great, but so is the freedom to avoid environments where you have to deal with toxic people.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Dude, you write essays like you're working on your dissertation ... in a forum where everyone else is just talking about a computer game. Learn to express your thoughts in 100 words instead of 10,000 and maybe people would actually be able to meaningfully dialogue with you.

Lol it is not my fault you can't read. I am not posting for people who can't read, I am posting for people interested in the discussion. Sorry you aren't interested, and just want to repeat your opinion over and over again without thinking. Your opinion is wrong of course, but you clearly have no intention on having a serious discussion if you can't be bothered to read.

[Samoht]

Calling you out for your bullshit isn't a personal attack.

Now why don't you come clean and admit that this was just a greedy ploy by you because you wanted to sell items to people by preventing them from farming them themselves?

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Is this really okay on this forum? I thought personal attacks violated the forum policies?

EDIT- Just read the rules and figured out their looser than a Chan. Since I avoid Chans because of their toxicity, I'm going to avoid this forum as well. Freedom of Speech is great, but so is the freedom to avoid environments where you have to deal with toxic people.

The issue here is not the people, or the rules. Your argument was simply not very good, and you knew you couldn't back it up. It is ok to admit when you are wrong.

[Zenren]

The issue here is not the people, or the rules. Your argument was simply not very good, and you knew you couldn't back it up. It is ok to admit when you are wrong.

Thanks for confirming why I am heading out. Buh-bye.

[Jibartik]

Is this really okay on this forum? I thought personal attacks violated the forum policies?

EDIT- Just read the rules and figured out their looser than a Chan. Since I avoid Chans because of their toxicity, I'm going to avoid this forum as well. Freedom of Speech is great, but so is the freedom to avoid environments where you have to deal with toxic people.

forums off limits

[starkind]

The effort people put into camping unnecessary items in this game is insane and ruins my immersion. It's rly sad what you have all done to this great game.

[karadin]

Gee, if only we had the exact rulebook used by the GMs during the classic period to know that's not true ... oh wait, we do (https://wiki.project1999.com/Kunark_Era_Customer_Service_Guidelines#8.2.2_Disru ption_Procedures)!

(Emphasis added)



It even specifically references using /random to determine who gets the camp ... ie. exactly what I've been saying we should do here.

Again, our PnP are unclassic, but often necessarily so because of our all volunteer GMs. In this particular case however, it's unnecessarily unclassic.

Loramin I respect your point of view here but I also think you are completely misinterpreting this rule.

Monopolies were definitely classic. Many of us lived through it for VP, ST, and VT key days. The monopolization in the disruption handbook had nothing to do with what we're talking about here. That was more like taking an entire zone or large area for yourself. If you were camping a single mob and handing the camp off to guildmates, there was nothing wrong with that. It's how the game was always played. If you petitioned a GM because you thought you were entitled to a camp someone else was killing at and wanted to pass to a guildmate they would tell you to kick dirt.

[loramin]

Loramin I respect your point of view here but I also think you are completely misinterpreting this rule.

Monopolies were definitely classic. Many of us lived through it for VP, ST, and VT key days. The monopolization in the disruption handbook had nothing to do with what we're talking about here.

Of course guilds had monopolies: on most servers there was one top guild in VP, ST, etc., and other guilds only gained access in subsequent expansions. On my server (Bristlebane) that guild was Club Fu.

But we're not talking about that, we're talking about camps, and those were not monopolized by guilds on live.

That was more like taking an entire zone or large area for yourself. If you were camping a single mob and handing the camp off to guildmates, there was nothing wrong with that. It's how the game was always played.

The GM guidebook headline is literally "Contested Spawn Complaints" not "contested zone or large area complaints".

If you petitioned a GM because you thought you were entitled to a camp someone else was killing at and wanted to pass to a guildmate they would tell you to kick dirt.

Again, we have the single opinion of someone who's literally been playing a re-creation that's existed longer than the original ... and we have the actual (original) book used by the GMs.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Of course guilds had monopolies: on most servers there was one top guild in VP, ST, etc., and other guilds only gained access in subsequent expansions. On my server (Bristlebane) that guild was Club Fu.

But we're not talking about that, we're talking about camps, and those were not monopolized by guilds on live.

So you are saying monopolies were a thing on live, and guilds were the ones who had them. Again you make points that go directly against your argument. If you are suggesting Idol camp specifically wasn't monopolized on live, that is not really relevant. Idol camp being monopolized is a consequence of the custom P99 raiding rules. If you want this camp to stop being monopolized, the answer is not changing the PnP rules, it is making P99 more classic by reducing the custom raiding rules and custom clickie nerfs.



The GM guidebook headline is literally "Contested Spawn Complaints" not "contested zone or large area complaints"!

Again, we have the single opinion of someone who's literally been playing a re-creation that's existed longer than the original ... and we have the actual (original) book used by the GMs.

The official GM guidebook is also not really relevant to P99. It was designed around the assumption that the game would have full time paid GMs who could consistently aid players with resolving issues. Our server can't emulate that part of classic Everquest, so we cannot use those rules. That is why the PnP gives more power to the camp owner, in the hopes that they can act as an arbiter in a GM's place when disputes occur.

[loramin]

So you are saying monopolies were a thing on live, and guilds were the ones who had them. Again you make points that go directly against your argument. If you are suggesting Idol camp specifically wasn't monopolized on live, that is not really relevant.


You are not this stupid. Long-winded maybe, but not stupid. So surely you understand there's a difference between locking down a regular mob v.s. being the only guild on the server capable of killing Trakanon ... right?

The official GM guidebook is also not really relevant to P99.
It's only relevant if the goal of this place is to be like live was ... but it's not like that is the entire goal of this place or anything (/em looks up at the upper-left corner) ... right?

[DeathsSilkyMist]

You are not this stupid. Long-winded maybe, but not stupid. So surely you understand there's a difference between locking down a regular mob v.s. being the only guild on the server capable of killing Trakanon ... right?


It's only relevant if the goal of this place is to be like live was ... but it's not like that is the entire goal of this place or anything (/em looks up at the upper-left corner) ... right?

You do know that VP keys are acquired by killing "regular mob" camps, right? If a single guild is locking down VP, they are probably monopolizing the Pained Soul camp, for example, to make sure all of their members and alts can get in to VP and kill dragons. Trakanon teeth are only one part of the VP key quest. Admitting there are guilds monopolizing VP on live during 2000 implies monopolization of the VP key camps in 2000 lol. And please do not try to argue that Pained Soul is not a "regular mob" camp because the only thing it drops is a raid specific item. If the exception to the monopoly rule is raid specific items, then idol would be included in that exception anyway, because idol is only really used on a regular basis in raiding.

As for your second point about the GM rulebook, it has nothing to do with P99, because we literally can't get the number of GMs that live had. I am not sure why you think it is relevant. Your earlier point about the /random idea in the GM rulebook relied on a GM being present to arbitrate the /random. If a GM is not present to arbitrate the /random, that entire section of the GM rulebook is not relevant, due to the GM condition not being met. Of course if two players can solve their issue with a simple /random roll, then neither the GM rulebook or the PnP was necessary in the first place, so it doesn't matter if the camp owner rule was in the PnP or not.

[Jibartik]

idk what you guys are talking about exactly but it's fun on pvp servers to fight over VP key spawns.

[Ripqozko]

idk what you guys are talking about exactly but it's fun on pvp servers to fight over VP key spawns.

Red is dead , hope that helps.

[loramin]

You do know that VP keys are acquired by killing "regular mob" camps, right? If a single guild is locking down VP, they are probably monopolizing the Pained Soul camp, for example, to make sure all of their members and alts can get in to VP and kill dragons. Trakanon teeth are only one part of the VP key quest. Admitting there are guilds monopolizing VP on live during 2000 implies monopolization of the VP key camps in 2000 lol. And please do not try to argue that Pained Soul is not a "regular mob" camp because the only thing it drops is a raid specific item. If the exception to the monopoly rule is raid specific items, then idol would be included in that exception anyway, because idol is only really used on a regular basis in raiding.

Trakanon was the bottleneck: no one was failing to get into VP on live because they couldn't do Pained Soul ... they were failing to get in because the top guild on their server could kill Trakanon and they couldn't.

Again, guild's "locking down" top content (ie. entire zones gate-kept by raid mobs) was 100% classic. Guilds trading turns to keep a spawn point monopolized for weeks on end 100% wasn't.

As for your second point about the GM rulebook, it has nothing to do with P99, because we literally can't get the number of GMs that live had. I am not sure why you think it is relevant. Your earlier point about the /random idea in the GM rulebook relied on a GM being present to arbitrate the /random. If a GM is not present to arbitrate the /random, that entire section of the GM rulebook is not relevant, due to the GM condition not being met. Of course if two players can solve their issue with a simple /random roll, then neither the GM rulebook or the PnP was necessary in the first place, so it doesn't matter if the camp owner rule was in the PnP or not.

That's like saying we don't have shitty servers that come down all the time, so we can only have raid mobs once per whatever-their-timer is. But that's false: the staff implemented earthquakes, which aren't "classic" ... but are clearly "more classic" than having nothing at all.

Similarly here I agree we can't do exactly what the GM guide says ... but that doesn't mean we can't look to it for clarity as to what live was like, so we can do our best to simulate it here.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Trakanon was the bottleneck: no one was failing to get into VP on live because they couldn't do Pained Soul ... they were failing to get in because the top guild on their server could kill Trakanon and they couldn't.

Again, guild's "locking down" top content (ie. entire zones gate-kept by raid mobs) was 100% classic. Guilds trading turns to keep a spawn point monopolized for weeks on end 100% wasn't.

We aren't talking about the bottlenecks for the VP key or raiding in VP. We are talking about "normal mob" camp monopolization lol. Please stop changing the topic to try and avoid admitting you are wrong.

If pained soul was as rare on live as it was on P99, you are looking at an average of like 20 hours per pop. That is like 1 key per day. Trakanon drops like 4 or 5 teeth, so they are pretty similar in terms of how many drop per week. On live, the following "regular mob" camps must have been monopolized by the top guilds trying to get into VP at minimum: https://wiki.project1999.com/Pained_Soul and https://wiki.project1999.com/Rotting_skeleton . Unless you want to try and claim top guilds were not monopolizing VP keys, you must admit that they were monopolizing these two "normal mobs" to get enough keys. Therefore, guilds monopolizing certain "regular mobs" for raiding is classic. Yet again, you prove my point and fail to see it lol.


That's like saying we don't have shitty servers that come down all the time, so we can only have raid mobs once per whatever-their-timer is. But that's false: the staff implemented earthquakes, which aren't "classic" ... but are clearly "more classic" than having nothing at all.

Similarly here I agree we can't do exactly what the GM guide says ... but that doesn't mean we can't look to it for clarity as to what live was like, so we can do our best to simulate it here.

Except we can't look to it for clarity, because it is impossible for us to get the number of GMs required to make the guidebook work. It is literally irrelevant, because it is a guidebook for a server with full time paid GMs, which our server will never have. Just because there are some things that COULD make P99 more classic, doesn't mean they can. For example, we COULD theoretically find all of the original servers and code. That would certainly make P99 more classic, but it isn't possible. Just like it isn't possible to get the correct number of GMs.

[Jibartik]

Red is dead , hope that helps.

https://i.imgur.com/4n66L42.png

[karadin]

Of course guilds had monopolies: on most servers there was one top guild in VP, ST, etc., and other guilds only gained access in subsequent expansions. On my server (Bristlebane) that guild was Club Fu.

But we're not talking about that, we're talking about camps, and those were not monopolized by guilds on live.



The GM guidebook headline is literally "Contested Spawn Complaints" not "contested zone or large area complaints".



Again, we have the single opinion of someone who's literally been playing a re-creation that's existed longer than the original ... and we have the actual (original) book used by the GMs.

You are misreading and misinterpreting the guidebook in my opinion. The contested spawn section reads pretty clearly. If someone is contesting a spawn, GMs will refer to the prior section regarding disruption to determine if any action should be taken. There is nothing in the disruption section about guidelines for passing off camps. Passing off a camp/spawn to a guild mate would not violate any part of the disruption guidelines and if you can’t prove disruption there is no action for the GM to take.

I just don’t see how the rules support your take on monopolizing a camp. If a group was monopolizing multiple camps or areas then that would fit. In fact it fits so well that this same rule was carried over to p99.

[loramin]

You are misreading and misinterpreting the guidebook in my opinion. The contested spawn section reads pretty clearly. If someone is contesting a spawn, GMs will refer to the prior section regarding disruption to determine if any action should be taken. There is nothing in the disruption section about guidelines for passing off camps.

Actually, you're misreading it. It very clearly says to check the disruption section to see if it's relevant, then (if it's not, as it would be in this case) it specifies how to handle camp disputes:

When a complaint is received indicating that a spawn or kill is contested, a disruption investigation should first be initiated according to the procedures of section 8.2.2 to determine if harassment or Zone/Area disruption is occurring. After following those procedures and issuing warnings as necessary instruct the parties involved in the contested spawn situation to work out a compromise. Then leave the scene.

Passing off a camp/spawn to a guild mate would not violate any part of the disruption guidelines and if you can’t prove disruption there is no action for the GM to take.

It's very simple. Whether someone wants to "hand the camp off" (something that was never a part of any rules or GM guidelines in classic) and someone else wanted it, you'd have a camp dispute. It would be resolved as specified, ie. the GM would first try and make everyone play nice, and if they couldn't they'd start a list with a random person being on top:

If another complaint is received involving the same spawn site, another disruption investigation should be initiated. After following those procedures and issuing warnings as necessary, if any of the parties involved were involved in the initial situation, establish a compromise for the parties to which the parties are required to abide. The compromise should be as described in section 8.2.3.1.

8.2.3.1
The compromise will require all parties to take turns killing the spawn(s). All parties involved in the contested spawn should be instructed to use /random 0 100 to choose a number. The CS Representative then uses /random 0 100. The individual with the closest number to the CS Representative’s number will be next in the rotation.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

I see you still haven't responded to the fact that any guild monopolizing VP must also monopolize normal, non raid camps like https://wiki.project1999.com/Pained_Soul and https://wiki.project1999.com/Rotting_skeleton . There is no logical way a raid guild could monopolize VP without monopolizing these two camps. When you are trying to be server first at killing the dragons in VP, you aren't going to leave Pained Soul or Rotting Skeleton camps unmanned for hours or days at a time. Otherwise you would never be able to get a kill force into VP in any reasonable amount of time. Another guild would beat you to it. And if you have two guild fighting for Pained Soul and Rotting Skeleton, that is the same dynamic as the Idol camp on P99 lol.

All of your points about the GM rulebook are irrelevant, as we do not have enough GMs to enforce them. All of the solutions you have posted from the GM rulebook end up with the GM making the final decision, which we don't usually have the luxury of due to our unpaid volunteer staff doing this on their free time (which is amazing that they do this for us).

That is why the P99 PnP allows the camp owner to act as the arbiter in a dispute. If you agree with your own statement that most people follow the rules, that means they will follow the rule that elevates the camp owner to the arbiter of the dispute and respect their decision. Only when they disobey the rules or cannot come to an agreement will GMs get involved.

[Ripqozko]

I see you still haven't responded to the fact that any guild monopolizing VP must also monopolize normal, non raid camps like https://wiki.project1999.com/Pained_Soul and https://wiki.project1999.com/Rotting_skeleton . There is no logical way a raid guild could monopolize VP without monopolizing these two camps. When you are trying to be server first at killing the dragons in VP, you aren't going to leave Pained Soul or Rotting Skeleton camps unmanned for hours or days at a time. Otherwise you would never be able to get a kill force into VP in any reasonable amount of time. Another guild would beat you to it. And if you have two guild fighting for Pained Soul and Rotting Skeleton, that is the same dynamic as the Idol camp on P99 lol.

All of your points about the GM rulebook are irrelevant, as we do not have enough GMs to enforce them. All of the solutions you have posted from the GM rulebook end up with the GM making the final decision, which we don't usually have the luxury of due to our unpaid volunteer staff doing this on their free time (which is amazing that they do this for us).

That is why the P99 PnP allows the camp owner to act as the arbiter in a dispute. If you agree with your own statement that most people follow the rules, that means they will follow the rule that elevates the camp owner to the arbiter of the dispute and respect their decision. Only when they disobey the rules or cannot come to an agreement will GMs get involved.

King in warrens

[loramin]

I see you still haven't responded to the fact that any guild monopolizing VP must also monopolize normal, non raid camps like https://wiki.project1999.com/Pained_Soul and https://wiki.project1999.com/Rotting_skeleton . There is no logical way a raid guild could monopolize VP without monopolizing these two camps.

I don't understand how you could say that: there is no VP access without Trakanon kills. Period. End of story.

You could farm a million Pained Souls and you still wouldn't get a single guild member into VP. Therefore there is no need to monopolize any other camp ... and again, in classic that's how "guild monopolizations of top end zones" worked. They "monopolized" the raid content that was necessary (but they didn't do it the P99 way, by winning some race: they just had better raiders and there was far less competition back then.)

And as for the guidebook thing, you're being obtuse. As I keep saying, of course our GMs can't do what live GMs can do. But they can try to be as close as possible, and understanding what live GMs did can help with that.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

I don't understand how you could say that: there is no VP access without Trakanon kills. Period. End of story.

You could farm a million Pained Souls and you still wouldn't get a single guild member into VP. Therefore there is no need to monopolize any other camp ... and again, in classic that's how "guild monopolizations of top end zones" worked. They "monopolized" the raid content that was necessary (but they didn't do it the P99 way, by winning some race: they just had better raiders and there was far less competition back then.)

And as for the guidebook thing, you're being obtuse. As I keep saying, of course our GMs can't do what live GMs can do. But they can try to be as close as possible, and understanding what live GMs did can help with that.

Uh, there is no VP access without https://wiki.project1999.com/Pained_Soul and https://wiki.project1999.com/Rotting_skeleton. Period. End of story. I am not sure why you think that helps your case to say it another way lol. Do you not know that these mobs are a required part of the keying process? You NEED to camp them when getting your guild members into VP, which means you... monopolize the camps lol. Thanks for proving my point.

We aren't talking about improving GMs, we are talking about the PnP rules which are there to prevent GM intervention. Please STOP changing the subject whenever you can't disprove a point. How are you even reading these posts? You are basically talking nonsense. Not trying to be mean, but this discussion has NEVER been about improving how GMs interact with players on P99 lol. The camp owner dictating who gets the camp rule has nothing to do with GMs unless the people involved disagree with the camp owner.

[Ripqozko]

Uh, there is no VP key without Pained Soul kills. Period. End of story. I am not sure why you think that helps your case to say it another way lol. Do you not know that Pained Soul is a required part of the keying process? You NEED to camp Pained Soul, which means you... monopolize the camp lol. Thanks for proving my point.

We aren't talking about improving GMs, we are talking about the PnP rules which are there to prevent GM intervention. Please STOP changing the subject whenever you can't disprove a point.

King in warrens

[DeathsSilkyMist]

King in warrens

I don't get it.

[loramin]

Uh, there is no VP access without https://wiki.project1999.com/Pained_Soul and https://wiki.project1999.com/Rotting_skeleton. Period. End of story. I am not sure why you think that helps your case to say it another way lol. Do you not know that these mobs are a required part of the keying process? You NEED to camp them when getting your guild members into VP, which means you... monopolize the camps lol. Thanks for proving my point.


There's no "pint", there's no "case", there's just the simple fact of how live was ... and you're clearly trying to be willfully ignorant of how live guilds worked. I give up trying to explain it to you.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

There's no "pint", there's no "case", there's just the simple fact of how live was ... and you're clearly trying to be willfully ignorant of how live guilds worked. I give up trying to explain it to you.

The only willfully ignorant person here is you. Your own example shows camp monopolization outside of raid zones for raiding purposes. You are just bending backwards to try and back out of that blunder.

If that is "how live was", then camp monopolization for raiding purposes was classic. As you say, look to the top left:)

[Ripqozko]

The only willfully ignorant person here is you. Your own example shows camp monopolization outside of raid zones for raiding purposes. You are just bending backwards to try and back out of that blunder.

If that is "how live was", then camp monopolization for raiding purposes was classic. As you say, look to the top left:)

Join vanquish today

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Join vanquish today

I am already a member in Vanquish:)

[Ripqozko]

I am already a member in Vanquish:)

Thatwasthejoke.jpg

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Thatwasthejoke.jpg

If it is a joke, it isn't a good one lol.

[Ripqozko]

If it is a joke, it isn't a good one lol.

Autistics don't recognize social things

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Autistics don't recognize social things

I appreciate you being honest about your autism.

[Ripqozko]

I appreciate you being honest about your autism.

Sorry you got, hope that helps

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Sorry you got, hope that helps

It's ok. Your honesty about your condition reveals why it is difficult for you to read more than one paragraph, and your inability to craft jokes.

I will keep it in mind. Hope this helps!:)

[Ripqozko]

It's ok. Your honesty about your condition reveals why it is difficult for you to read more than one paragraph, and your inability to craft jokes.

I will keep it in mind. Hope this helps!:)

Imagine

[loramin]

The only willfully ignorant person here is you. Your own example shows camp monopolization outside of raid zones for raiding purposes. You are just bending backwards to try and back out of that blunder.

Then quote where I provided any evidence that people monopolized non-raid spawns (ie. the entire thing this thread has been discussing) in classic.

You can't, because I could never post such evidence, because (again) monopolizing of (non-raid) spawn points by guilds over an extended period of time did not happen in the classic period.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Then quote where I provided any evidence that people monopolized non-raid spawns (ie. the entire thing this thread has been discussing) in classic.

You can't, because I could never post such evidence, because (again) monopolizing of (non-raid) spawn points by guilds over an extended period of time did not happen in the classic period.

First, for your own quote:

Of course guilds had monopolies: on most servers there was one top guild in VP, ST, etc., and other guilds only gained access in subsequent expansions. On my server (Bristlebane) that guild was Club Fu.

If you want to assert this, you are admitting top guilds were monopolizing the VP key non-raid camps (soloable by casual players) such as Pained Soul and Rotting Skeleton. There is no way around that because if you have 50 trak teeth, you also need 50 pieces from Pained Soul and Rotting skeleton, or zero people are getting in to VP. Unless you have evidence to suggest these top guilds were lazy and killed Trak every week but dragged their feet on the rest of the quest, monopolozation of these non-raid camps (soloable by casual players) is the only solution for quick keying.

Second, you are moving the goal posts. You said earlier:


But we're not talking about that, we're talking about camps, and those were not monopolized by guilds on live.

However, now that you have realized your mistake about VP, you have gone from "it didn't happen" to "it didn't happen for extended periods of time". You have at least admitted that monopolization of non-raid camps (soloable by casual players) did happen on classic now, which is progress.

As I said before, the only reason why Idol and Scepter are monopolized on P99 (purely for raid purposes, if you want to try and argue about "non-raid spawn points") for longer periods of time is because of NON CLASSIC raid rules and clickie nerfs. If you want to make Idol and Scepter camps "classic" again, the solution is not changing the camp owner rule in the PnP. That rule is for assisting our volunteer GMs. The solution is making P99 more classic by removing NON CLASSIC changes. When you make NON CLASSIC changes, even to the raid scene, you get a NON CLASSIC ripple effect that hits non raid content.

[Ripqozko]

Autism

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Autism

Yes, we all know you are autistic. I apologize for not posting something short enough for you to read.

[Ripqozko]

Sorry you got and will repeatedly respond let’s make it 50 pages

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Sorry you got and will repeatedly respond let’s make it 50 pages

Imagine

[Master Roshi]

Christ you guys got worse after OP left the chat.

There is no monopoly going on, these camps get locked down for long periods of time plenty sure, but they have gone back and forth from Vanq, to Riot, to TSS and even non guilded toons plenty.

As far as server history, Howling Stones Key was 100% monopolized after Kunark dropped, giving access to only a single guild for it's content. This isn't anything new.

[loramin]

Autism

I mean that or something.

He's not a bad guy, but I truly believe that in his head this is some master debating session, where he's scoring all the points ... and he's just completely unaware that he comes across as a crazy person who can't handle the basics of human conversation.

And look, to be fair, if you check my post history you'll see that I used to post the same way when I first got addicted to ForumQuest :)

However now, having "grown out of it" myself, it is a bit painful to watch and interact with (not to mention tiring). But I have hope he too will grow out of it eventually (and start posting like a normal human being).

[DeathsSilkyMist]

I mean that or something.

He's not a bad guy, but I truly believe that in his head this is some master debating session, where he's scoring all the points ... and he's just completely unaware that he comes across as a crazy person who can't handle the basics of human conversation.

And look, to be fair, if you check my post history you'll see that I used to post the same way when I first got addicted to ForumQuest :)

However now, having "grown out of it" myself, it is a bit painful to watch and interact with (not to mention tiring). But I have hope he too will grow out of it eventually (and start posting like a normal human being).

When you can't win with logic and facts, you then pretend to be the better man. The problem here isn't me "acting like a crazy person".

You are just doing anything you can to save face. If you had truely "grown out of it", you would have either accepted you were wrong or found some additional evidence. I am not sure why you care so much about being right at any cost.

[loramin]

When you can't win with logic and facts, you then pretend to be the better man. The problem here isn't me "acting like a crazy person".

You are just doing anything you can to save face. If you had truely "grown out of it", you would have either accepted you were wrong or found some additional evidence.

The problem with any conversation I've tried to have with you on this forum is how you "post like a crazy person", yes. It transcends any specific topic.

Like I said, trying to converse with you is exhausting. That makes me (and everyone else) mostly just give up when they realize there's no point in trying to interact with you like a human: they're only going to get autistic-five-page-long-essay-writing-robot-debater DeathsSilkyMist.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

The problem with any conversation I've tried to have with you on this forum is how you "post like a crazy person", yes. It transcends any specific topic.

I do not. You are not the arbitrator on who is and isn't crazy here lol. You are just stubborn to a fault, and instead of admitting you are wrong, you twist yourself into a pretzel trying to get out of it. Please " grow out of that", and we won't need 10+ pages of you bending backwards.

The reason why you keep getting into trouble with your posts is because you post so little, and assume everyone knows what you are thinking. Post like me, so we can see your thought process. Remember, I don't know whats in your head. I can only see what you post.

[loramin]

I tried to communicate with you like a human, instead of just giving up like everyone else does: guess I'll just have to give up.

But someday I truly hope you'll learn that people giving up discussing a topic with you out of exhaustion does not mean you've "won" anything.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

I tried to communicate with you like a human, instead of just giving up like everyone else does: guess I'll just have to give up.

But someday I truly hope you'll learn that people giving up discussing a topic with you out of exhaustion does not mean you've "won" anything.

Lol this is such a poor way to admit defeat. Like throwing a temper tantrum. The problem here isn't me, and anybody reading this thread can see that. Please start acting like an adult who can admit when they have lost an argument. It honestly isn't a bad thing unless you make it ugly like this.

Please read peoples posts, and write enough in your own so we can see your thought process. Otherwise you are basically arguing with some simulacrum of the other party within your head, and I can't help you with that. It's funny because you say I write too much, but clearly you write so little that people aren't understanding your points well enough. If I am wrong, it shouldn't be too difficult for you to put in a little more effort and show it.

[Croco]

Can confirm Loramin is correct. I mostly ignore any post from DSM. I'm not in school anymore and that's what reading his posts feel like.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Can confirm Loramin is correct. I mostly ignore any post from DSM. I'm not in school anymore and that's what reading his posts feel like.

It is perfectly fine if you want to ignore my posts. I do not post for specifically for you or Loramin.

That doesn't make you or Loramin correct. I will continue trying to help people get the relevant information they ask for (which is the purpose of this forum).

You and Loramin can continue to be obtuse and unhelpful. At the end of they day you two will end up being ignored more than myself.

[loramin]

Think of it this way: when you go to a party, would you rather talk to the guy who talks for 30 minutes without letting you get a word in, and then once you do say a few sentences he goes back to telling you his strongly held opinions for another 30 minutes ...

... or would you rather talk to the person who (no matter how different their opinions might be) actually has a dialogue with you, where you both get turns to talk and actually listen to each other?

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Think of it this way: when you go to a party, would you rather talk to the guy who talks for 30 minutes without letting you get a word in, and then once you do say a few sentences he goes back to telling you his strongly held opinions for another 30 minutes ...

... or would you rather talk to the person who (no matter how different their opinions might be) actually has a dialogue with you, where you both get turns to talk and actually listen to each other?

This analogy makes no sense in this situation. Honestly I think you are a bit delusional if you view the conversation like this. You can go back through this thread and read it to see why your analogy is nonsensical.

On a forum, people take turns posting, so you can say everything you want without interruption. Post length is not comparable to someone talking at length at a party. I am not to blame if you are too lazy to read. If anything, YOU are the person talking for 30 minutes with a strong opinion in your analogy.

Why? Because you don't read my posts, and you just keep repeating your opinion over and over again without considering the other persons words. You can go back and read if you don't believe me. The conversation is still here, and historically accurate. I addressed all your points, and didn't ignore what you had to say, unlike yourself.

Again, the problem here is you are a sore loser, so when you can't win with logic and facts, you resort to calling other people names. It is silly. Learn to read peoples posts, respond to them properly, and admit when you are wrong, like you are now in this thread. It's not a good idea to do what you are doing on a forum, where everybody can go back and read the conversation lol. It just makes you look bad. I am trying to help you avoid these situations in the future, you get into them somewhat often.

[p99deadstarre]

the only thing i'll say is i found it interesting how in another thread DSM attributed P99 success to the fact it's the only single-box server (true), but in this thread he seemed to be making the case repeatedly that P99 success is due to it's fucked up camp rules (untrue)

[DeathsSilkyMist]

the only thing i'll say is i found it interesting how in another thread DSM attributed P99 success to the fact it's the only single-box server (true), but in this thread he seemed to be making the case repeatedly that P99 success is due to it's fucked up camp rules (untrue)

This seems to be another case of people not reading very carefully. Single boxing has nothing to do with this specific camp rule. A person multi-boxing while holding down a camp would just be... a group holding down a camp lol. A group does not need to swap ownership back and forth between individual group members. The camp owner (the "group" in this case), would pick the next owner of the camp when they leave, it isn't any different.

The camp owner rule in the PnP has one simple function: To give players some GM authority when it comes to handling a camp dispute. Why do they do this? Because the P99 Staff understands that they will never have enough GMs to arbitrate all camp disputes. They want to encourage players AS MUCH AS POSSIBLE to solve their own issues, which includes giving higher authority to the camp owner.

The camp owner PnP rule works for 99% of camps on P99. Every camp I have been to that has people waiting there operates on a gentleman's agreement list, and people do not break that agreement. There are less than 10 camps in the game where the PnP rule does not work because of favoritism. It is a silly idea to remove a rule that works perfectly well for literally hundreds of camps, just to try and fix less than 10 camps. Do you know how the P99 Staff have handled creating special rules for specific camps before? They make exceptions! That is why camps like Ring 8 and Scout Roll have specially enforced rules, where the camp owner rule does not apply.

Honestly this is such a non issue I have no idea why people are so adamant about it. If you really think these camps deserve their own exceptions like Ring 8 and Scout Roll, the solution is to petition the P99 Staff to include those camps as exceptions. But since they haven't done it (and Idol at least has been monopolized since Aftermath was the best guild on the server), I do not have high hopes that this will happen.

[loramin]

the only thing i'll say is i found it interesting how in another thread DSM attributed P99 success to the fact it's the only single-box server (true), but in this thread he seemed to be making the case repeatedly that P99 success is due to it's fucked up camp rules (untrue)

Don't engage him: it's utterly pointless, and he'll just talk at you until you die of boredom from reading his walls of text.

Just ignore and let him live in his fantasy world where the person who gives up after trying to converse like a human being is the "loser" in the situation.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Don't engage him: it's utterly pointless, and he'll just talk at you until you die of boredom from reading his walls of text.

Just ignore and let him live in his fantasy world where the person who gives up after trying to converse like a human being is the "loser" in the situation.

Honestly Loramin, stop digging yourself further into this hole. You really look like an idiot by saying stuff like this. If you think I am wrong, prove it. Name calling and revealing your fantasies about me are irrelevant to this discussion.

Being unable to counter points another person has made in a discussion cannot be hand waved away by people "dying of boredom". You are just making a blanket excuse to try and explain why you cannot counter my points. It is a really weak argument, and easily disproven by reading the thread.

[loramin]

Honestly Loramin, stop digging yourself further into this hole. You really look like an idiot by saying stuff like this. If you think I am wrong, prove it. Name calling and revealing your fantasies about me are irrelevant to this discussion.

I think you're worse than wrong: wrong only applies to one topic. I think you have problems communicating with other human beings across all threads you participate in.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

I think you're worse than wrong: wrong only applies to one topic. I think you have problems communicating with other human beings across all threads you participate in.

As other people have stated in this thread, you love to assume your opinions are facts. You have no evidence to suggest I have communication issues. You simply started saying this because you had no way to counter my points.

Your laziness when it comes to reading a forum (where everything is done via text) is a YOU problem, not a me problem.

I am not the one tossing out insults when I lost a debate. I have never told people to stop listening or talking to you simply because I disagreed with you. That is a pretty bad communication issue to be honest, and quite childish. I will happily go back to having a civil discussion with you when you stop being an asshole.

Everyone can see where our disscussion broke down. It wasn't me who started insulting you and attacking your character. It was you and other people on this thread attacking me, the record is there.

[loramin]

I'll phrase it differently: what's the point of "winning"? Like seriously, why do you want to "win at forum quest"?

Is it because there's value to it? Do you feel better about yourself when you look at a thread several days later and see that everyone else gave up posting?

Or does the only value of a win here (or in any forum) come from convincing others of a more correct viewpoint (which inherently requires communicating with them)?

[DeathsSilkyMist]

I'll phrase it differently: what's the point of "winning"? Like seriously, why do you want to "win at forum quest"?

Is it because there's value to it? Do you feel better about yourself when you look at a thread several days later and see that everyone else gave up posting?

Or does the only value of a win here (or in any forum) come from convincing others of a more correct viewpoint (which inherently requires communicating with them)?

I don't value winning. That is your misunderstanding here. I simply want people to have the correct information about P99. You can look through my post history, I gladly admit when I am wrong. If someone else knows better than me, great!

The issue here is you seem to have a problen being wrong. If you didn't, why do you have to resort to name calling and being an asshole? If you don't have the time to read, or the facts to back up your argument, just give up.

[loramin]

I don't value winning.

When you can't win with logic and facts

Again, the problem here is you are a sore loser, so when you can't win with logic and facts

Nope, you don't care at all.

But more importantly, you're still failing to understand that me (and everyone else) giving up trying to communicate with you =/= me (or anyone else) changing their beliefs. You haven't "won" a thing except being the person who keeps talking longest.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Nope, you don't care at all.

But more importantly, you're still failing to understand that me (and everyone else) giving up trying to communicate with you =/= me (or anyone else) changing their beliefs. You haven't "won" a thing except being the person who keeps talking longest.

The problem here is you assume this is the case. Just because you are too lazy to read my posts, you don't speak for the vast majority of the forum users. I am not sure where you are getting this information besides pure conjecture.

As for those previous quotes, you are posting them out of context, to try and score points. You don't care about winning?:)

I only started saying that after the conversation broke down, because you were acting like a sore loser and a child. You can see precisely in the thread where you stopped trying to rebut my points, and just starting insulting me lol. You REALLY aren't helping yourself here with these posts, because the evidence is there for everyone to see.

Just go to the end of page 15, where you asked me a question. I responded to it, and then you just threw up your hands and had a temper tantrum. When you start insulting me and throwing a fit, I have the right to defend myself. I am not the one who started this. The thread is quite clear.

[Ripqozko]

The problem here is you assume this is the case. Just because you are too lazy to read my posts, you don't speak for the vast majority of the forum users. I am not sure where you are getting this information besides pure conjecture.

As for those previous quotes, you are posting them out of context, to try and score points. You don't care about winning?:)

I only started saying that after the conversation broke down, because you were acting like a sore loser and a child. You can see precisely in the thread where you stopped trying to rebut my points, and just starting insulting me lol. You REALLY aren't helping yourself here with these posts, because the evidence is there for everyone to see.

Just go to the end of page 15, where you asked me a question. I responded to it, and then you just threw up your hands and had a temper tantrum. When you start insulting me and throwing a fit, I have the right to defend myself. I am not the one who started this. The thread is quite clear.

its not me, its all of you (autism)

[DeathsSilkyMist]

its not me, its all of you (autism)

Repeating nonsensical insults does not make you correct, or cool:) If you can't contribute meaningfully, just don't post. I am perfectly capable of introspection, but just because you claim I have a problem, doesn't automatically make it true.

[Skarne]

Sheesh I don't like how my two favorite forum posters are arguing.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Sheesh I don't like how my two favorite forum posters are arguing.

I honestly don't like it either. I generally appreciate Loramin's contributions here. I am not sure why he has chosen this hill to die on.

If he has some additional evidence to provide to help his case, I am 100% willing to listen. Sadly Loramin is the one being stubborn here (he occasionally does this). Hopefully he will stop throwing out insults and start throwing out facts.

Again, for anyone who wants to see who started this senseless back and forth between Loramin and I, just go to the end of page 15. You can see where I answered his question, and after that he just devolved into name calling.

[Ripqozko]

I honestly don't like it either. I generally appreciate Loramin's contributions here. I am not sure why he has chosen this hill to die on.

If he has some additional evidence to provide to help his case, I am 100% willing to listen. Sadly Loramin is the one being stubborn here (he occasionally does this). Hopefully he will stop throwing out insults and start throwing out facts.

Again, for anyone who wants to see who started this senseless back and forth between Loramin and I, just go to the end of page 15. You can see where I answered his question, and after that he just devolved into name calling.

you cant help but get the last word in (autism)

[DeathsSilkyMist]

you cant help but get the last word in (autism)

Please stop posting nonsense. It has nothing to do with the thread, and you can't even be bothered to read other people's posts. This is not RnF.

[Ripqozko]

Please stop posting nonsense. It has nothing to do with the thread, and you can't even be bothered to read other people's posts. This is not RnF.

see, still have to get last word in and reply

[DeathsSilkyMist]

see, still have to get last word in and reply

The irony here is palpable. Aren't you doing the same thing? You can't even insult people properly lol. You would stop posting to show I got in the last word. Uh Oh, looks like I gave the game away on that strategy too:)

[Master Roshi]

consider becoming pen pals, there's a definite bond forming here.

[Arvan]

consider teal

[Rafarj]

will there be a teal again :confused:

[DeathsSilkyMist]

will there be a teal again :confused:

Probably not. Talking about teal on the forums is basically just a joke at this point. Nobody here has any new information on teal.

[ReoDobbs]

you cant help but get the last word in (autism)


You literally have no idea what autism is, do you? Also trying to use it as a slur is awesome (narcissism and or a'hole)

[Ripqozko]

You literally have no idea what autism is, do you? Also trying to use it as a slur is awesome (narcissism and or a'hole)

Sorry you got

[ReoDobbs]

Sorry you got

Thanks for confirming my diagnosis of you correct

[cd288]

Sorry you got

I always wonder what it’s like to be someone like this person. All they do is sit on the forums all day posting negative responses to people. Like imagine waking up and being like “this is what I’m going to do with my time”. This person in particular even does it without receiving any response or interaction from others at times.

I would think at the end of the day when you look at yourself in the mirror you must feel pretty sad and depressed with the state of your life.

[Ripqozko]

I always wonder what it’s like to be someone like this person. All they do is sit on the forums all day posting negative responses to people. Like imagine waking up and being like “this is what I’m going to do with my time”. This person in particular even does it without receiving any response or interaction from others at times.

I would think at the end of the day when you look at yourself in the mirror you must feel pretty sad and depressed with the state of your life.

Sorry you are mad, hope that helps .