Wizards! Do you regret it?

[Trelaboon]

I keep telling myself "Wizards have horrible downtime while soloing, it's not worth it....groups never want them....it's not worth it" But secretly, I can't stop myself from wanting to play a Wizard really bad. My question for every Wizard out there is: DO YOU REGRET MAKING YOUR WIZARD? If you do regret it, tell me what you'd rather have, and why. If you don't regret it, tell me why you love your Wizard! I need some help, encouragement, or discouragement here.

[nalkin]

I love my wizard because he doesn't exist. Like a true friend Kimmie stopped me when I had become delusional and almost made the mistake of making a wizard.

[Skope]

I actually prefer playing my wiz over my necro, shaman and mage. Unfortunately, it's probably the most gimp class in all of classic until AAs. It isn't until AE groups or raids where you really see them shine and notice just how useful they really are. Lures are critical, stuns are amazing, big nukes are awesome. With a manastone + Epic you can pretty much quad/nuke to your hearts content. Mana robe is great in zones you can't port in/out of.

With all that said, it's still a huge pita to level a wiz. Finding quad spots that aren't taken is a major pain and getting into a group (unless a guild group) for decent loot in a dungeon is quite rare. We probably won't be seeing AA's here, so the hopeful notion that it'll only get better is only wishful thinking.

[Zigfreed]

Wizards are awesome and people who think they don't belong in groups are wrong. Their dps over time is indeed a tiny bit smaller than say a rogues but no rogue can mana dump in an emergency and end said emergency. No monk can port out to pick up the cleric replacement from wc when you are in Kunark. They also can't hit the gtfo of dodge button and save everyone from a wipe.

With that said.. Most folks will stay biased and you'll solo waaay more than you want to. That's mainly why I shelved my wizzy and made a chanter.

[Rasah]

Wizards are awesome and people who think they don't belong in groups are wrong. Their dps over time is indeed a tiny bit smaller than say a rogues...
Tiny bit?

Your bread and butter spell for damage will be draught of fire. 688 damage for 215 mana. I'll assume the wizard has specc'ed Evocation, so we'll knock 10% of the mana cost. 193.5 mana can be meditated back in 39 seconds, assuming you've got clarity. So you can do 688 damage in 39 seconds sustained. So your dps is 18 per second best case scenario. That is giving you the benefit of the doubt that you are casting in between med ticks.

Any rogues wanna help me out and give examples of what a rogue dps is? I suspect it's more than a tiny bit higher than 18 per second.

[Rais]

Wizards don't climb up the dps scale for groups till they get innate spell crits. Till that happened they are warriors dps wise,if you claim otherwise you are ignorant of the dps ladder.

They sure can burn mobs down in groups quick and save the day. Can also root,pull,snare,stun and evac.I love them in groups too. I've only met 2 wizards worth a damn on this server though.

[nalkin]

Their dps over time is indeed a tiny bit smaller than say a rogues but no rogue can mana dump in an emergency and end said emergency.

Lol you must have a very strange definition of tiny.

[Athrix]

Looking over some parses from the past week or so...

Sebilite Golem avg dps over 25 fights 64.04, 22-96 (high low)
Frog Bok Shaman avg dps over 30 fights 57.83, 31-103
Sebilite Juggernaut avg dps over 29 fights 42.01, 21-64

Can't comment on what buffs I had at the time, how much haste (if any) but I can tell you I'm usually near or @ max str.

[Diggle]

or, OR! if you're into killing dragons and the like, 2-3 wizards can KS entire raid forces because melee dps is garbage now! ^_^ Wizards out damage -everyone- on boss mobs now. Point blank.

[Ulivar]

Being a wizard as a main character on this server isn't as terrible as people act out on these boards, theres great utility and good fast damage when you need it, for exp grinds that have no fear of any miss-pulls or adventures to harder spots we aren't amazing, but can still hold our own. But I personally don't want to sit in OT all day long, i'd rather go explore guk again, so they can have it. We are great for escaping, transporting, planes travel..., quick killing, chain interupting casters. I'm only level 39 and I personally haven't had too much trouble getting groups. I've never been flat out told i'm not wanted because i'm a wiz.

[Slust]

As I recall, the DPS "hierarchy" went something like:


Rogues
Wizards
Monks
Mages
etc.


Every class has a mix/balance of: (generalizing)

Tanking Ability

Damage Mitigation

Disciplines
Disarm
Absorption (Spells)
Etc.

Damage Avoidance

Block
Dodge
Parry
Etc.

Armor Limitations
Skill Limitations/Caps
Threat

Taunt

Etc.


Healing Ability

Healing Skills/Spells

Direct Heals
Heal of Time
Mend
Etc.

Buffs

HP Buffs
AC Buffs
Stat Buffs
Resist Buffs
Etc.

Resurrection

Resurrection Spells
Convergence

Bind Wound
Etc.


Damage (DPS)

Equipment Limitations
Crits
Skills

Kick
Bash
Flying Kick
Backstab
Etc.

Spells

Direct Damage
Damage Over Time
Damage Shields
Area Effect

Self-Based Diameter ("Point-Blank")
Target-Based Diameter

Etc.

Skill Limitations/Caps
Etc.


Utility

Movement Impairment

Snare
Root
Stun

Movement Increasement

Gate
Teleportation
Buffs

Spirit of the Wolf
Spirit of Scale
Wolf Form
Etc.

Levitate

Invisibility

Regular
Undead
Animals
Hide
Sneak

Pets
Etc.


Certainly the "Utility" list(s) can go on for quite a while. The point is -- Every class has a balance of Tanking, Healing, Damage and Utility that defines what roles they can perform and how well they can perform them.

Rogues are top DPS because they have very low Tanking ability, virtually no Healing ability and very low Utility. This "frees up", if you will, theoretical "points" that then get spent in the Damage department.

Wizards have their own checks and balances. Certainly the limitation of Mana is one to consider, but that has its own pros and cons associated with it. Wizards do the most "Burst" DPS of casters (possibly all classes in regular case scenarios?), but also have the best mana:damage efficiency of all casters. I believe wizard nukes are an average of 10% more efficient than a mage's nukes.

The territory also comes with additional utility like Invis, Group Teleports and Root, as well as some baked in resist modifiers that make some spells have an easier time passing resist checks.

I am not a wizard, nor have I played one, but I've never seen anything necessarily "wrong" with them. Every class just offers a flavor certain people find more desirable than others. Utility wise, Wizards are a little "bland" with the exception of Group Teleports, but the real strength of a wizard is on the back end of the mechanics anyhow.

All in all, I'd say Wizards are a pretty good class. The only class, I feel anyways, that is deserving of pity is the Ranger, whom saw their "fix" really come in during Luclin when they got AA's to bolster their previously "inadequate" Bow DPS.

Possibly Paladins as well, since their mitigation deficiency compared to a Warrior wasn't quite made up for through their defensive/healing twist on the class. Whereas a Shadowknight got more DPS for their reduction in Tanking ability (which was always useful), Paladins never really assumed a healing role and the group still required a dedicated Priest class for healing. On the other hand, Knight aggro was pretty fast and pretty snap... so they did make really good tanks for exp groups...

(I concede I'm really caffeinated right now and borderline rambling too much, so I'll shut up now)

[Zigfreed]

Yeah I'm a touch biased I admit (main was a wizzy, man I rocked..) but the dps difference really isn't that huge even if it isn't teentsy.

Please.. No more facts proving me wrong, ty. Wizards rock, end of story

/declaresvictory
/closesdiscussion

[Striiker]

I played a wizard to 50 on live. I wound up abandoning him in favor of playing an enchanter. The reason for this choice was my extreme addiction to clarity. As a wizard, I could not stand being without it. I would port out of dungeons to get a refresh when I could. I really love playing the enchanter as it is very challenging to play in some situations but they can save the day.
Wizards are great and I always welcome them in my groups. (even those stinky gnomes) ;)

[Estu]

I made a wizard because I wanted a porting character. The reason I didn't make a druid is because I already had two priests (a shaman and a cleric) and wanted something a bit different. I don't regret making a wizard in that sense. However, the wizard was really boring to level up, not much value in groups, and slow solo. I don't recommend the class.

[Torven]

Anybody who says wizards are a viable DPS class either doesn't parse logs or joins terrible groups with very low uptime.

I played a wizard from day one March '99 until '04. I also rolled a warrior from Kunark to '04, and boxed them both everywhere. At no time did my wizard, or any other wizard, outdamage my warrior in non-aoe exp group situations. Not even in PoP. I had arguments with wizards on Graffe about it, because most people are incompetent and don't understand the concept of uptime. Learn to pull before mobs die to keep your melee swinging as much as possible.

Wizards are the only class that gets worse the better your group plays. Wizards need downtime to recharge, and if you play well enough to not have downtime, then your damage relative to the total damage done by the group declines. So, if you're a terrible player and you group with terrible players, then a wizard just might be for you.

If a wizard is not casting PBAoE spells on many mobs or nuking raid mobs, then a wizard is doing some of the lowest damage in the game. Only a cleric does less damage. That said, wizard damage on raid mobs is quite respectable starting in Kunark, especially in PoP. However spell aggro and resists on P99 are worse than they were on live so wizards are in even worse shape here.

[Messianic]

Anybody who says wizards are a viable DPS class either doesn't parse logs or joins terrible groups with very low uptime.

I played a wizard from day one March '99 until '04. I also rolled a warrior from Kunark to '04, and boxed them both everywhere. At no time did my wizard, or any other wizard, outdamage my warrior in non-aoe exp group situations. Not even in PoP. I had arguments with wizards on Graffe about it, because most people are incompetent and don't understand the concept of uptime. Learn to pull before mobs die to keep your melee swinging as much as possible.

Wizards are the only class that gets worse the better your group plays. Wizards need downtime to recharge, and if you play well enough to not have downtime, then your damage relative to the total damage done by the group declines. So, if you're a terrible player and you group with terrible players, then a wizard just might be for you.

If a wizard is not casting PBAoE spells on many mobs or nuking raid mobs, then a wizard is doing some of the lowest damage in the game. Only a cleric does less damage. That said, wizard damage on raid mobs is quite respectable starting in Kunark, especially in PoP. However spell aggro and resists on P99 are worse than they were on live so wizards are in even worse shape here.

[Zuranthium]

Wizards don't climb up the dps scale for groups till they get innate spell crits. Till that happened they are warriors dps wise.

Wizards are far, far below Warriors in DPS.

Wizards are below Paladins DPS.

They are even below fully-hasted Bard melee DPS.

That's what happens when you have a game where only the melee characters get equipment that really improves their abilities and there are better avenues for increasing melee DPS - haste vs. the mana regen a Wizard can get at best...haste wins. Not to mention melee characters (aside from Bars) get disciplines and that Strength/Dexterity buffs improve DPS whereas increasing stats relevant to casters doesn't.

or, OR! if you're into killing dragons and the like, 2-3 wizards can KS entire raid forces because melee dps is garbage now! ^_^ Wizards out damage -everyone- on boss mobs now. Point blank.

Wizards are indeed helpful for killing bosses but, in my experience, the gap shrunk when Kunark came out. Back in Original EQ, melee classes didn't do much damage against the Dragons/Gods and Wizards were the only casters that could really damage them because of resist rates.

In Kunark, melee DPS vastly increased from what it was in Original EQ while at the same time caster DPS became relatively worse. Wizards are still useful for blasting bosses but it isn't really necessary like it was in Original EQ (although it wasn't 100% "necessary" there either since you can beat anything if you simply have enough Clerics to endlessly C-heal, but it was certainly MUCH more sought after and it's more realistic to have some Wizards around rather than a shitton of Clerics).

When Velious comes out the gap will widen even further. Melee will get even better equipment and monsters will resist even more and have even more HP.

[Kaedain]

lets just be honest here.. as long as youre not playing a druid youre fine

[karsten]

or, OR! if you're into killing dragons and the like, 2-3 wizards can KS entire raid forces because melee dps is garbage now! ^_^ Wizards out damage -everyone- on boss mobs now. Point blank.

[Azazel]

As far as grouping goes, wizards are terrible, far worse than rangers. Great to have on raids tho.

[Hithrohir]

The problem is that the content isn't designed to cater to what a wizard offers. If huge burst damage was widely useful, it'd be different. There's very rarely a need to burn a mob down in a hurry, especially as mob hp grows to the point where you pretty much can't. Towards the end of Kunark, and certainly in Velious, it gets to the point where the mobs simply die faster if you apply the sustained DPS of a melee class throughout the entire fight. If it had been so that wizards, despite having a lower general DPS, were frequently needed to burn down mobs during hypothetical dangerous phases or whatever, they might serve a purpose. It just isn't really there, and for the vast majority of the game's content, a wizard is resigned to sitting around nuking each mob once and doing horrible DPS with no situations coming up where the ability to burn shit down becomes valuable.

The math has already been done in this thread. While rudimentary, it's pretty straight-forward - consider the damage to mana ratio, the time it takes to get that amount of mana back, and you have a general DPS figure. Then consider that a wizard contributes absolutely nothing else during combat and you have proof that the class is simply weak. Their ports are a tertiary convenience, their evacs are only needed if things don't go right (which they usually do with this playerbase, most everyone being hardcore EQ veterans who know their shit) and the ability to interrupt casters is neither rare nor particularly critical in a group setting. Plus it costs DPS for the wizard, unlike other classes.

I think the simple fact that magician nukes are only 10% worse than a wizard's while their pet approaches the DPS of an additional melee class is enough to discount wizard as a viable DPS role. And even magicians are considered sub-par. Lures are hugely mana-inefficient and are used only on the occasional raid target that can't be nuked with normal spells, and while wizards do become a bit less futile on raids, they're still far from necessary and often enough out-performed by melee anyway.

Most of this boils down to that lapse in class design vs. content design, and of course the inexcusably bad caster itemization of early Everquest. A naked wizard does the same DPS as a raid-geared one, and while the latter can do it for longer, the mana pool dilemma comes into effect on anything but boss mobs where you always start at FM. Uptime was discussed in a previous post, and anyone who knows their shit knows that a large mana pool is worthless when you never get to reach FM, and is equally worthless if the content is so easy that you frequently do. It only matters in those situations where you get to fill that huge mana pool up before using it and can then use the whole thing. Without a way of doing this on demand like you can in modern games, it becomes almost entirely worthless, and thus caster itemization is broken.

[Swish]

Loved my wizard on live around Velious and onwards, didn't have a problem getting groups and found myself in demand a lot of the time.

Made a wizard here, pretty much went solo til about 14-15 then went to Oasis... where I spent hours sometimes LFG. Not prepared for the rejection, and its strange how wizards are considered the lowest of the low on P99.

Obviously, I quit playing him. Sad really.

[Ulivar]

MM all this talk of MELEEQUEST is making me a sad panda

[Eccezan]

loved it on live, lovin it here and couldnt imagine playing another class as my main...love to have the spells fixed and harvest added tho :rolleyes:

Rod of Annihilation (if you can get your hands on one) w/ Tola Robe and Shaman buffs sure help dps in groups as well! Tons of fun

[Chewboy]

Made my wizard, loved him up until his 40's then I could never find a group and all quadding spots were taken. Took me over a month to get to lvl 50 from 49. Then I thought okay once i hit 51 things will be better! NOPE. The mobs in kunark required to get past 51 have crazy fucking HP and the zones are a bitch to quad in. Bottom line. If you are creating a wizard be prepared to spend 6+ hours LFG and then when you do find a group 9 times out of ten the dps is shit because you're a wizard and not any other class.

Top Ten Things I wish I knew when I made my wizard...

1. Even at lvl 50 if you want to do any quadding you have to use your lvl 34 aoe spell because it is the most mana efficient all other AoEs are either retarded dmg/mana ratio or they are rain damage which simply doesn't cut it.

2. Wizard snare sucks ass. On the plus side its an AoE snare which is cool, on the downside it disappears several times during a fight. Its necessary to resnare 3 to 5 times during a quad.

3. Post 40 You can never find a group and if you do xp is slower than shit because you're losing the grp DPS.

4. Looks like you get a lot of spells on the spell list right? WRONG dmg/mana ratio is messed up for 80 percent of them, be prepared to use one spell for everything. I'm convinced as a wizard you could prolly spend under 150p for all your spells until 50 if you ditch the ones that you'll never use.

5. At level 50, if you get more than 2 light blue mobs on you in Uguk you are fucked if you can't evac.

6. You will never be able to camp a single item that is in a dungeon. You need a wide open space to do any sort of soloing at all.

7. Porting yourself is cool. Porting other people isn't. "Sorry man, that's all I have on me." Most of the time they want to dick you with a donation of 5 plat. Hardly worth your time. If you dont play /anon or /roleplay be prepared for tells every three seconds asking for you to go way out of your way for a 5 plat port.

8. Single Target Instant Kill at 60!!?!?? Cool right!? Wrong, the mob has to be below lvl 52 and when you use it you get no xp and the corpse disintegrates upon kill, so there is no loot either. So even at 60 the one spell that could enable you to camp items in dungeons dicks you once again.

9. Roots are nice and at 51 you get one that lasts a whole year, lotta good that is for soloing when you nuke it immediately breaks no matter what.

10. Want to port over to EJ or Skyfire? Not only do you have to be in kunark but you have to be in a kunark dungeon to do it. That's right, thats a port in to DL, then a run all the way across the hills to karnor's to port to EJ or Skyfire. Oh and when you port into Skyfire, Spread those ass cheeks wide as hell because those sperm with teeth are waiting for ya.

/bow

[Friday]

KSing my raid force and linking false loot is pretty fun.

[WizardEQ]

Honestly, if you can't find a group just form one yourself. With /lfg, about half the time I get a tell asking me to join a group. If I don't find one, I just start a group. Pretty easy when you can search all /lfg in your level range. I leveled up in Oasis in mainly the Orc HW group, either joining or forming. In Guk I can find a group or just form one, it's been so dead there lately there.

Caveat: I formed a group in Guk last night that didn't go well for anyone, and I apologize. I had WAY too many RL interruptions, wife coming home, picking up kid from school, etc. But with all this I managed to get an SK from Nek who had never been to Guk before, a cleric, and enchanter. All in all, I couldn't stay that long but hopefully the group got some decent exp overall.

BUT the night before last, I got 2 levels in an amazing group that stayed full with replacement players. So it all balances out nicely. At this point in my life, I'm really in it to relax and have fun. It's merely a distraction from RL for a few hours a day.

XAX

[mimixownzall]

What ruins wizards are the ones who get in a group and cast once every 3 mobs. I see this a lot. Once it was in a group with an SK as tank and a bard and chanter, so aggro and mana wasn't an issue.

[Skope]

What ruins wizards are the ones who get in a group and cast once every 3 mobs. I see this a lot. Once it was in a group with an SK as tank and a bard and chanter, so aggro and mana wasn't an issue.

It can still be an issue, depending on what the wizzy is casting and how fast the mobs are dropping.

Oddly enough, your stuns may be more beneficial in a group setting than your sunstrike/draught line of nukes. If it takes 20 seconds to drop a mob, having it stunned for nearly half of that time is better than putting out 1k damage. It eases up on the heals and mana/aggro of your other group members significantly.

Yes, wizards are gimped. They solo the worst of all int casters and offer the least to a group. It's hard to get groups, it's rough quadding/soloing to 60. In a raid setting, though, they're a critical asset.

[Kimm Barely]

Did the first time on live. Looking back, it was truly tedious until the early 30s. Quad kiting saved the experience for me. Decided to go druid this time and love it much better. I am pretty casual so the class works for me.

[Maelstrom]

I do not regret playing a wizard at all. It's one of the harder classes to level up, and challenging to master and play. Sure, they might suck if you are a completist that wants the "perfect group", but the key is to think outside the box of how a wizard can be used.

-Wizards can chain pull very well in outdoor zones (and certain dungeons), by using flux staff to grab a mob, run to group, root it...and pull again. Med while first mob is being killed and throw a nuke or two to finish it off. Once group attacks next mob, pull again. This effectively keeps mobs constantly in group and adds to the xp gain.

-Ever tried a quad group? Quite fun actually. Take 3-4 wizards (usually LFG), a healer, and an enchanter. You can pickup a mage or really anyone if you can't find that many wizards. One wizzy pulls four mobs w/flux staff, snares, and brings them to group. After the first wiz lays down an aoe nuke, the rest of the group can start nuking/attacking as well. Once all mobs are dead, the first wizzy meds while the next wiz pulls next four. Lots of fun!

-A lot of wizards tend to use their highest level nukes in a group, which will drain mana and eventually lead to a long med break. Why? Lots of lowel level nukes work just as well, and will conserve mana a hell of a lot longer. Be wise with your arsenal and you'll be nuking a lot more than sitting on your ass.

-Don't trust your group in SolB? Invite a wizard. Can't tell you how many groups I have saved with an EVAC due to incessant trains at BnB or deeper. The run back from nektulos might suck but it's much better than a corpse run.

-Can't find a group? Make friends with a few mages or necros. These classes work well together in a duo type scenario. The necro can fear kite while you nuke, or the mage pet can tank while you snare kite. Sure, there are med breaks...but it's good xp.

-Rain spells are HIGHLY underrated. They are perfect for casting and then medding while damage continues to hit the mob. Some wizards think that because they are aoe spells, that they should be used for multiple mobs....but the best use for these are when you have a single mob in camp. If no resists the mob will drop real fast!

-Porting is my favorite part of this game. I don't know how some of you can do without it, actually. I can't imagine playing a class that could not port wherever or whenever. Love being able to get where I want to go instantly. It's also the moneymaker for me. The trick is to know where people need ports the most, and binding there ready to take their hard earned plats.

Now to address a few misconceptions:



2. Wizard snare sucks ass. On the plus side its an AoE snare which is cool, on the downside it disappears several times during a fight. Its necessary to resnare 3 to 5 times during a quad.

Not true at all, can't believe you think this. Atol's is one of the best snares in the game. AoE snare is essential for quadding, and I only have to cast it ONCE per quad. If you are casting more than once per quad...something is wrong and you aren't quadding correctly!



7. Porting yourself is cool. Porting other people isn't. "Sorry man, that's all I have on me." Most of the time they want to dick you with a donation of 5 plat. Hardly worth your time. If you dont play /anon or /roleplay be prepared for tells every three seconds asking for you to go way out of your way for a 5 plat port.

If all you do is stick around EC for ports, then yes you will have this kind of experience. I understand not everyone has plat or may be new to the game. If you really want to make money by porting, OT/FV/DL is where it's at. Bonus in DL for evacing to EJ/SF. And you can command the tip there too. Say you'll do it for 100p. But most of the time the tips are going to be 50-100p or more. The best money making wizards are bound @ KC and have an OT hammer.



9. Roots are nice and at 51 you get one that lasts a whole year, lotta good that is for soloing when you nuke it immediately breaks no matter what.

Again another misconception. I hope you aren't talking about Paralyzing Earth? I use it all the time, and it rarely breaks after nukes. I actually just root and then nuke til the mob is dead, without a break at all. If you are scared it will break though, just snare the mob.

Wizards are great if you know how to play/use them. End of story! :D

To future trolls/haters/tools/douchebags...a disclaimer: These are just examples of why I don't regret rolling a wiz, and how to become more useful other than sitting on my ass all day medding in a group. If you wanna question these options go right ahead...I'll still make use of the class to get xp any way I can. Cool?

[Akim]

There are two types of people I see posting, people who count this as a game and people who count this as a job.
The job people are counting DPS, stating facts about how they don't do as much damage as a rogue - ect, and other bullshit that doesn't mean a damn thing to the second group of people who PLAY A GAME AS A GAME and enjoy the role that a wizard takes on.
You who count damage per second. You're a joke to me, this is a game not a job.
If this IS your life I'd consider taking a break .. Until then you'll never be able to really enjoy this as a game.
Ya dig?

And complaining about helping people who only have 5 plat and need a port .. Get the fuck out of here. Just quit playing. The server would be better of without you.

[Motec]

I just read that post by maelstrom and am now convinced I never want to group with him. A total newb to EQ has a better grasp on efficiency than this guy.

[Maelstrom]

I just read that post by maelstrom and am now convinced I never want to group with him. A total newb to EQ has a better grasp on efficiency than this guy.

That's funny I hear you are one of the worst clerics on the server. No wonder we haven't grouped! :eek:

[Motec]

Lol hate is strong. You demonstrate utter ineptitude and get called out. Poor you qqqQQQqqQQqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqq

So to retort you get all bitchy and cry, predictable yo.

Tell you why a retarded door-knob fucking downie is better than you at playing a wizzard: When called out for being useless and not knowing shit, they would ask how to do it better.

PS I do hope your assessment of me is right, as that would mean I've let associates of you die. They're probably kid touching inbred key turning clickers too.

[k2summit]

^^^^

You mad Bro?

[formallydickman]

key turning clickers too.

classy

[Zuranthium]

Well, Maelstrom, I would say your post is very off-base. Wizards are not really better at chaining pulling than any other class (and your definition of chain pulling is not how such a thing should be done, if you're trying to be as efficient as possible). You don't need root, you just need a group that pays attention and tags the mobs as soon as you bring them in. Root is certainly helpful but it's such a widespread ability in the game that it doesn't set Wizards apart.

"Can't find a group? Make friends with a few mages or necros. These classes work well together in a duo type scenario" - This is an absurd statement. A necro or mage, who are perfectly capable of soloing, are not going to want to group with a freaking Wizard. All you'll do is slow them down with your inefficient ass. Also, rain spells are highly underrated? Riiiiight, have fun with those resists.

There are two types of people I see posting, people who count this as a game and people who count this as a job. The job people are counting DPS, stating facts about how they don't do as much damage as a rogue - ect, and other bullshit that doesn't mean a damn thing to the second group of people who PLAY A GAME AS A GAME and enjoy the role that a wizard takes on.

Oh please, what a tired and lame argument. Tons of people who play Everquest as a game (rather than trying to constantly farm/grind) dislike Wizards because of how poorly they were implemented. People want to contribute to a group, have fun with their buddies, and feel like they are pulling their weight. Wizards do not pull their weight. "The role that a wizard takes on" is supposed to be doing damage; the class was billed as being "masters of magical damage". Aside from magical damage sucking more and more as the game goes along, Wizards are usually not even the best class at it.

A Shaman later in the game will often do more DPS than a Wizard on nukes alone because of their superior mana regeneration. Then you add in the pet and it becomes a total joke. Not to mention Shaman can throw a poison DoT which is far more efficient than anything the Wizard can cast in fights that last 30+ seconds. That's only one aspect of the Shaman's abilities as well. They have amazing debuffs, they have amazing buffs, they can heal, and they even get ROOT. In comparison, Wizards have teleports and second-rate stuns. Nowhere close to balanced.

Hithrohir is dead-on with what he said on the last page. Burst damage simply isn't very useful in this game and Wizards aren't even that superior at doing burst damage, when compared to the damage output a Summoner (oops, I mean Magician, oops I mean Mage...why the hell did they name that class Magician???) can do between their pet and their own nukes within that same timeframe. When I played a Magician, I was often able to outdamage Wizards who came along and thought they could KS a camp by racing me to the kill.

[Doors]

Ignore Zuranthium. This guy doesn't even know how clarity works which is why clerics bail on any group hes in. Wizards are fine.

[Zuranthium]

More like ignore Doors, the ultra-troll who has nothing to say and resorts to name calling or just flat-out making shit up. Funny how more people agree with me than you, especially amongst the high level players you could ask in-game. Don't understand Clarity? How retarded can you be? Try a little harder. :rolleyes:

Although, FYI, perhaps you are referring to the idiot Cleric who I denied Brilliance to a few days ago. We were in an exp group and I refused to waste my mana on a spell that essentially does nothing, stating that the tiny Wisdom increase from the spell doesn't actually give the Cleric more mana. All it does is increase their max mana and they should never have max mana anyway in an exp group. Instead of trying to listen and learn, the Cleric raged about how selfish I was being...when in fact I was doing what was best for the group by using my mana as wisely as possible.

I do not bow to the whims of ignorance and it cost me nothing at all when the Cleric left the group. It only helped me, actually. I went off and soloed and got more exp than I would have gained in the group and later on I formed a team that actually met my level of standards, by hand-picking the people I wanted for the group while I soloed.

[Doors]

I was the MH in his group yesterday and I asked for C, he then tells me "no, you're our healer."
I said, "I know... so how about that C?"
"No."
"Errr... what? C me..."
<silence>
Happyfeets has left the group.

My first and only group with him.

Got a nice thread going about you in RNF bro. Building up a solid rep as a douchebag.

[Doors]

haha yea this guy is not just a tool, he is the entire toolshed -- I had the displeasure of grouping with as a cleric and he refused to give buffs as well.

Avoid grouping with this guy if you are playing EQ to have fun.

[JenJen]

brilliant.

[Doors]

The everquest guru has been silenced. Maybe hes googling clarity to see what it does when cast on someone else?

[Zuranthium]

...in other words completely made up bullshit.

I would never deny Clarity (or any other buff that is actually good) to someone in the group who needed it, although I often deny Clarity and other buffs to people who I'm not grouping with. Buffs cost mana and if I'm not grouping with you, trying to be "nice" in fact only hinders my own group or myself (if soloing). It's also flat-out rude to ask for a buff without first offering something, unless you're in my guild or we are good friends. That's how these things work.

I'm also quite simply against buffing outside of my group to begin with, unless I really like you, because it's an awful game mechanic. There should be no such thing as long duration buffs, unless they are for traveling, or night-vision, or under-water breathing or something. Every class offers certain abilities and when you give those abilities to another group, they are gaining something that they no longer have to actually invite someone into the group for. "Buffs" should only be short-duration and should require the buffer to constantly be casting them at opportune moments, i.e. - grouping with you.

[Doors]

Yeah click targeting a stranger and giving them a buff out of generosity is really painstaking. My fingers cramp up sometimes as I agonize over clicking a spell gem.

By the way I highly doubt two random high level clerics decided to gang up on you and make up that shit. As an everquest guru, a certified expert if you would, why would you deny a cleric clarity in your group?

Anyways let me know. I am always interested in the opinion of an everquest guru, a certified expert if you would.

[Zuranthium]

Yeah click targeting a stranger and giving them a buff out of generosity is really painstaking. My fingers cramp up sometimes as I agonize over clicking a spell gem.

It costs mana. You obviously don't understand the concept of time=money, which in this case is mana=exp.

And since you have failed to understand everything else I said, as always, I will say it again in summation:

* I find it rude when people ask for buffs without first offering something to compensate for it.

* I dislike buffing people I am not grouped with or fond of because it negatively shifts the dynamic of the game (or at least how I see the game).

[Alarti0001]

Wizards don't climb up the dps scale for groups till they get innate spell crits. Till that happened they are warriors dps wise,if you claim otherwise you are ignorant of the dps ladder.

They sure can burn mobs down in groups quick and save the day. Can also root,pull,snare,stun and evac.I love them in groups too. I've only met 2 wizards worth a damn on this server though.

Wizards are warriors for dps without c2 corrected

[Trademaster]

I've got to say, I'm very glad that Zuranthium was not a part of developing the "vision" of what EQ is supposed to be.

And darn it if as I was sitting back in the tunnel from nek forest to lavastorm (killing the stone guardians, and single guard in lazy mode while cleaning house) I kept getting random buffs by complete strangers as they wandered by. I much prefer the happy friendly, helpful atmosphere of the Project 1999 server over the greedy, selfish ideal that Zuranthium strives for.

Complete strangers, not grouped with me, being nice. Imagine the possibilities.

[Zuranthium]

When you go into a store you have to pay for things. You don't get to freaking walk up to the clerk and say "give me this and this and that" and have it handed to you.

I'm completely in favor of a friendly, helpful atmosphere. Just not in the way you perceive it. Buffs are a bad game mechanic and when used improperly I see it the same as using a cheat code.

If I'm not busy then I will hand out buffs to people when I see fit (if you're a class I feel sorry for then that will likely weigh into the decision). Sometimes even if I am busy, depending on the scenario. I especially like to help low level people who are new to the game, not just in terms of buffs but also cash and/or helping you break camps that you need help with. If you roleplay then that makes me all the more likely to help you, as it shows you are actually engaging in part of what the game is supposed to be.

I'm almost surely not going to give you shit if you walk up to me in overly twinked-out gear, though. You've already used a cheat code by doing so and are in fact HURTING the "friendly, helpful" atmosphere of the game by playing as a twink rather than actually interacting with other people of your level and playing the content as it was designed for people at those levels. I'm certainly not going to give out many free buffs when we are in a 50+ dungeon either. You need to be especially nice/interesting (roleplaying helps there) if you want a free hand out from me, as that shows as an actual interaction and respect for CLASSIC EVERQUEST.

[Doors]

Classic everquest is not a grocery store.

Roleplay is gay.

People who are twinked have done the classic from nothing grind already.

[visage]

You know he makes some valid points. It is good to see he has his own set of values for the game and sticks with them. Regardless, on how others dislike them. I for one admire that. I don't agree, or would do in a lot of the things he is saying , but I definetly see his point. We all love this game for different aspects. It is always refreshing to see others having different opinions and liking it for how they see fit. Kudos to you friend. Don't let being different ware you down. Social coniditioning in Eq is very real.

[Motec]

You wont clarity a random? I am happy to rez anyone anytime within reason as long as it doesnt affect my groups xp substantially. That 700 mana is only 1000dmg or so considering resists so I dont mind in the slightest unless im extremely under the pump. Even then they can just wait ten minutes and ill usually find some mana :p

What I do laugh at is an enchanter who wont cast a 75 mana spell on a random who asks. I'll happily symbol/hero a chanter for c2 just out of principle and building that repor usually means future relationships are more likely. If you've played 1-60 on several new servers you would have a different attitude as specifically being kind, generous, and dedicated to doing your job the best gets you places that being an arrogant arse does not.

As for waka, everything you describe is flat out wrong and inefficient. If a wizzard is doing absolutely anything aside from medding in between nukes they shouldnt be a wiz. They serve zero purpose to a group. I'll happily tell wizzies off for looting (ill throw them a couple of gems or ruby crowns at end) as a missed tic of med is a tangible loss in dps. Its that simple. A rogue for instance does not have this problem, as post exp message they can do handstands in kilts for all I give a hoot.

You're right, some people treat this game like a job. I am also fairly regimented in most of life so why be any different in a game? Whats so wrong with making the most of my time? Less time spent being inefficient = more time to goof around later on. Its 6 of one or a half dozen of the other, but id rather make time I set aside to achieve a goal be used most efficiently.

As for brilliance etc on a cleric. You realise higher overall manapool = higher disposable damage? I on average nuke more than heal in a well functioning group and for the inevitable 2-3mins of afk where I hit FM, thats a free nuke/stun/whatever. Thats the difference between a wipe and a win when your enchanter chain roots to try and drop aggro (this was lol worthy) so specifically once in the last 3 days I know that one buffed saved an hour of CR. For the same reason everyone gets at least a hp buff, more total hp in group = more damage when shit hits the fan, and more options for a smart cleric to do his job in making shit right.

And finally. Twinks. My twink rogue is better geared than most rogues on the server and I will group with anyone twink or not, and if theyre not they get to loot absolutely everything and get a massive boost to their xp etc, get to know a higher level who is happy to rez/buff etc them whenever and generally you encounter some cool people. This server is so good for random encounters; for instance just goofing around farming efreeti the other week to waste time we found a mid level chanter, dropped the 60 from group and got him a shitload of xp and lewt, found out he is a cool dude and an ex cleric from live. Now he's a member of the guild. What an awesome find, just from asking for clarity from a random dude then realising we can help out.

The social aspect is so awesome here, but maybe its just that like minded people attract and those of us who have done it all before several times tend to attract eachother in a way a wizzie offering to pull and slow me down, or an enchanter who does not think more than one step ahead does not.

I really do feel sorry for anyone who rolls a wizzie and doesnt know their job. I feel especially sorry for those that know their job and arent geared out the teeth as thats the only way you become a value add as a wizzie in kunark. Its an issue of class balance, nothing personal.

[WizardEQ]

Bring back Classic "BETA" Everquest. Then you got your pre-nerf wizards back (and lots of other stuff)!

[Messianic]

...

This is, quite honestly, the worst "I played a wizard and they suck" post I have ever seen. There are shreds of truth in it, but the examples you provide tell me you weren't a very good wizard.

Took me over a month to get to lvl 50 from 49.

Really? It took me about 2 hours in Kunark, solo.

Then I thought okay once i hit 51 things will be better! NOPE. The mobs in kunark required to get past 51 have crazy fucking HP and the zones are a bitch to quad in.

Kinda true - depends where you're at. Spirocs in TD have about as much hp as specs and are better exp. You can quad Seafuries - granted, you have to go during off-hours - through 53/54 or so. There are other mobs to quad and spots I found which are actually pretty effective, but require you to turf certain factions. It also took having access to old ShowEQ spawn information to know exact hp levels of various mobs.

But I definitely agree that after 53/54, even quad kiting becomes very lethargic. Quadding raptors in TD is about 1% exp per quad with 6-7 minute med times, and its the only place that's usually uncamped.

Top Ten Things I wish I knew when I made my wizard...

1. Even at lvl 50 if you want to do any quadding you have to use your lvl 34 aoe spell because it is the most mana efficient all other AoEs are either retarded dmg/mana ratio or they are rain damage which simply doesn't cut it.

This is true to some degree, but 50-51 only took me about 2-2.5 hours at bloodgills in LoIO.

2. Wizard snare sucks ass. On the plus side its an AoE snare which is cool, on the downside it disappears several times during a fight.

You never snare a mob at the beginning of a fight anyhow, unless you're single-target nuke kiting a mob. Otherwise, Atol's lasts plenty long, and has a fixed duration, which is helpful.

Its necessary to resnare 3 to 5 times during a quad.

I have never had to resnare a quad unless one of the mobs resisted. Ever.

3. Post 40 You can never find a group and if you do xp is slower than shit because you're losing the grp DPS.

You can find a group about as easily as a ranger, but I agree that other classes are generally a better option. But if you're playing EQ correctly - i.e. making contacts and finding people you trust, which is absolutely necessary in tougher dungeons - you'll get groups for being a half-decent player.

4. Looks like you get a lot of spells on the spell list right? WRONG dmg/mana ratio is messed up for 80 percent of them

Not sure what you mean by this. It's true the mana-damage ratio on wizard spells is only barely better than Magician/Druid/Necro/Shaman DD, and was probably one of the biggest oversights of classic EQ, but they're not "messed up" or "bugged" in any way. It was a game design flaw.

The main difference between Wizard DD and Magician DD, for example, is a tiny bit of speed, which is useful for raid mobs. But the approximately 1 second faster casting time on Ice Comet vs Lava bolt is definitely not compared with the power the magician's pet represents.

be prepared to use one spell for everything. I'm convinced as a wizard you could prolly spend under 150p for all your spells until 50 if you ditch the ones that you'll never use.

This is actually rather true, since you can go 1-50 without touching caster mobs, so your stuns and force strike/thunderbolt kinda spells are really unnecessary and terribly inefficient on non-caster mobs, and annul/cancel magic type spells aren't necessary at all, and really only useful when you're grouping.

5. At level 50, if you get more than 2 light blue mobs on you in Uguk you are fucked if you can't evac.

Not me - but I actually carry additional HP gear around (and have since I was able to afford it in my early 20s) for potentially dangerous situations, i.e. attempting to solo camp mobs. 2 55hp/5ac rings, HBC, golden jaded bracelets, feathered leggings (since black chitin leggings are way too expensive and heavy for their return), glowing bone collar, and a Platinum Tiara (which i sold, but i will eventually get another).

6. You will never be able to camp a single item that is in a dungeon. You need a wide open space to do any sort of soloing at all.

It's true that wizards are very weak at camping mobs that Necros/Mages/Chanters/Shaman/Well-Geared Monks/SK's/Sometimes Pallies consider child's play. But I can still camp, at 52, a good number of decent money-making camps (and quadding seafuries early in the morning or HGs is still very good money).

But no, you don't need a wide open space to solo. I soloed Heart Spiders in upper guk until 20. Until 26, I soloed single mobs such as Osargen in HK, until I discovered how effective column of lightning was - even without AoE snare.

Again, I needed to buy some cheap hp gear to be able to do that. But it took thinking outside the box rather than believing that you can only solo something if you can chain-nuke it to death without interruption.

7. Porting yourself is cool. Porting other people isn't. "Sorry man, that's all I have on me." Most of the time they want to dick you with a donation of 5 plat. Hardly worth your time. If you dont play /anon or /roleplay be prepared for tells every three seconds asking for you to go way out of your way for a 5 plat port.

This is kinda true. It's sad to see people in 40k+ worth of gear who tip 10 plat for a port. But that's why I stay anon and just jump on people who offer 80pp+ for ports. Those are worth my time.

8. Single Target Instant Kill at 60!!?!?? Cool right!? Wrong, the mob has to be below lvl 52 and when you use it you get no xp and the corpse disintegrates upon kill, so there is no loot either. So even at 60 the one spell that could enable you to camp items in dungeons dicks you once again.

I never assumed disintegrate would ever be a helpful spell.

9. Roots are nice and at 51 you get one that lasts a whole year, lotta good that is for soloing when you nuke it immediately breaks no matter what.

I think you mean paralyzing earth at 49 - but yes, it does last a really long time, and no, that's not helpful for someone who nukes as a primary source of damage. So it's pretty much useless *except* as CC when you're grouped.

10. Want to port over to EJ or Skyfire? Not only do you have to be in kunark but you have to be in a kunark dungeon to do it. That's right, thats a port in to DL, then a run all the way across the hills to karnor's to port to EJ or Skyfire. Oh and when you port into Skyfire, Spread those ass cheeks wide as hell because those sperm with teeth are waiting for ya.

This is entirely accurate, and annoying. Staying bound near a Kunark dungeon becomes a virtual necessity.

[Atmas]

Played a Wiz as a main for all of my career on live, which started near launch and went through till OoW release. I made a wiz here recently because I didn't learn my lesson the first time (I hope I never do). He's only 20 so far, I will try to touch on both experiences.

1. Wiz Group DPS - Playing my wiz now I have frustrations based on the mechanics people have mentioned. DPS isn't tied to gear except when emptying a full mana bar vs a fight. As a low level wiz easily accessible strong melee weapons can make you feel shameful to be leaching group xp because of the state of horrid mana regen. Resists will make you want to slit your wrists. As others have mentioned the more chain pulling your group does the worse your dps per fight will be.

On the flip side of this if you are in a group that has more time between pulls you benefit. Also if you happen to have a nice enchanter cast some crack on you it is quite possible to dominate the dps for a portion of time, particularly if you are in a group capable of pulling multiple mobs.

It is unforunate though that unless these circumstances occur you will be likely the bottom of the dps in a standard group setting. I do say the word stanard because if you are in a situation with multiple mobs and agro management AoE efficiency can have a huge impact on dps and total damage output.

On live I remember when AAs and crits arrived that I would group with a chanter and bard in my guild and manage to pull pretty good sustained numbers but that isn't pertinent at this time.

2. Wiz DPS - The counter balance of Wizards having poor sustained DPS is good burst. At some spell levels its normal to two shot dark blue mobs and if soloing at camps with a limited number of mobs its actually nice to be able to burn the mobs down then just chill while medding and waiting for respawn.

In the raid setting Wars and Clerics (maybe a slower) are probably the only truely critcal classes but obviously different classes have benefits. Wizards can pump out quick DPS that doesn't have to be sustained indefinitely. I actually remember on live I got the majority of two of my late 40s/ early 50s levels in PoFear raids. Even with deaths I made a killing on xp because the space between mobs let me burn them down.

Even in a group at my current low level if a pull goes bad I have some extra mana I can burn down some mobs and maybe save the day.

Kunark and Velious made the margins more narrow between wizards and other dps for raids but then later on Luclin and PoP put Wizards and Rogues back in another league. Again not all necessarily relevant.

3. Soloing - Wizard soloing is not the best. It's also far far from the worst given that several of the classes have no soloing ability once they reach a certain point. I loved being able to go out and just quad for xp on live. No help was required from other classes if you had jboots, though a SoW or Clarity was a nice aide to have.

4. Camping Items - No pet means no free sustained damage. No free sustained damage means you could potentially go oom clearing through green mobs if they are handled in singles. I recally being able to camp things outdoors pretty easily and not a terrible amount of trouble with indoor spawns though.

5. Utility - If you like traveling and get bored of xping in the same place it is a huge boon to instantly get across the globe.

There are obvious downsides to playing a wizard, namely standard group sustained deeps. But at least you can function without a group and from my experiences function well in a raid. Hopefully you play a class that you like and play with people who (if they are super dps focused) understand the other benefits of a Wiz.

[Messianic]

"Fizzler on the roof," LOL - whoever made that tag is a genius


Anyhow, you can sum up this thread by saying that wizards are good at two things - Quadding at certain level ranges for fast exping, and manadumping on raid bosses. A minor mention for chain stunning caster mobs.

Anything else and you're likely better off with any other class.

[Zuranthium]

As for brilliance etc on a cleric. You realise higher overall manapool = higher disposable damage? I on average nuke more than heal in a well functioning group and for the inevitable 2-3mins of afk where I hit FM, thats a free nuke/stun/whatever.

If you are nuking more than you are healing in a well functioning group as a Cleric, then it's not actually that great of a group (unless you're lower level and fighting undead). The group should be constantly pulling, you should be doing nothing but healing and possibly rooting or stunning casters, and you should never hit full mana. Even if you go AFK and med to full, the added benefit of Brilliance would give you an extra 30 mana. It costs over a 100 for me to cast. So, nope, I'm not going to waste my effort and mana to mem and cast that spell on you, just so that you can have another little icon sitting there on your buff/debuff box.

[Motec]

heh. you has no idea sirz. plz read more prima guide and display your wisdom for all of us

[Decad]

My 1st post on the forums so do not flame me

Having played a wizard on live to 70 I gotta say that the social stigma wizards endure only started to change after Velious Banes will added. And even then it remain till luclin/POP AA days.

Although lures do work in raids in Kunark it changed nothing the social stigma wizards face.

Throw in the already known/debated/discussed/trashed out multiple times issues of DPS and resists playing a wizard really becomes a perseverance grind and more reliance on friends and guild

Would love to hear the developers thoughts on this matter though.

Just my 2 cp

[Acillatem]

I played a WIZ on Live for 5 years and now here. I don't regret it at all.

Sustained DPS (ie XP groups) we suck.
Burst DPS (ie raids) we rock.

HOWEVER, you can help boost your overall effectiveness in a group via stuns. Stun-locking healers / casters can help reduce the length of a fight, and/or reduce the amount of healing/rezzing the CLR will have to do.

Of course evacs etc. Basically a WIZ is good for XP grinds when you need an "Oh Shit!" button. We can either burn a bad pull down ASAP, or we can evac - either way we're the only class capable of doing that.

If you do more than just sit on yer ass and nuke every now and then - people will take notice and you will make friends and get groups on yer own.

Sometimes tho, that's all you end up doing.....single pulls etc, no casters - ya you might spend all nite just twiddling thumbs casting Draught of *** all nite.

Other times you are on the ball root parking adds, stun locking healers, burning the shit out of a 5 mob pull to help make it more manageable for the ENC as far as CC etc.

Either way - the problem with the WIZ class is 95% of the WIZ I see fall into the "I'll just click my nuke button every so often and watch this movie", and only like 5% actually make good use of their spell-book.

[clacbec]

i lub my wiz, he s 41 since ages but i love it with passion.

[Nirgon]

If you think leveling a wizard is slow 51+ you don't know how to do raptors (in b4 they're always camped, gimme a sec) or you cant handle quadding in burning wood.

Let's talk about how melees can't solo almost anything or effectively heal themselves.

Wizards are bad in a group that chain pulls compared to a rogue.

No shit? Really??

Never mind that off rooting mobs in the dps role exists so the cleric or healer otherwise doesnt have to.. or the enchanter is momentarily overwhelmed (or dead).

[TheBlackSheep]

I don't plan on being Mr. Raid Guy and since most of my leveling will be done with 1 or 2 other friends, perhaps I should quit while I'm ahead.

I think I'm going to shelve ole Alzar now at level 10 as opposed to regretting sticking it out for 60 levels. I did that once before with my first character. I invested 45 levels in a half-elf paladin before I realized I was getting screwed on XP and couldn't hit the broadside of a barn and it wasn't a good feeling.

Looks like I'll be going with my old standby, Azorath the Necromancer.

[Nirgon]

half-elf paladin

Velious->Tunare religion-> free epic+ quality 2h (no bash I don't think, though).

[Messianic]

If you think leveling a wizard is slow 51+ you don't know how to do raptors (in b4 they're always camped, gimme a sec) or you cant handle quadding in burning wood.

Raptors at 52 (not vicious raptors) are approximately 1.5% exp per quad, which takes up roughly 90% of my mana bar (with 203 int and +190 mana in items). Spirocs are only slightly better, since they take 55% of my mana per quad and are about 1% on average, although sometimes higher if I get a good set of blues. BW is a little more, but not much, and the time you take actually finding mobs and dodging sarnaks makes it slower than Spirocs (since Spirocs just sit around in the same place like morons and don't aggro).

Sorry, that's not very fast. It's not terrible, but a good group is faster.

[TheBlackSheep]

Velious->Tunare religion-> free epic+ quality 2h (no bash I don't think, though).

This was pre-Kunark. After shelving the paladin, I fired up a DE rogue and DE Necro and had a blast till POP made me spoon my eyeballs out with the corner of my keyboard.

[Nirgon]

Sorry, that's not very fast. It's not terrible, but a good group is faster.

Implying a good group is guarunteed? :eek:

Just playin' you a little on the comment don't freak out. Here's the deal...

Most groups I've had experiences with have a "gotta go" every 2 hours or so, no two players are on the same schedule. Then there's the down time of looking for certain classes etc with a seb key or are waiting outside the bubble no less. Mention of Karnor's XP is omitted because I always made less there than doing almost anything else.

But my point I guess I'm trying to make, is I had a higher play time and could bank on consistent/measurable XP and could bank on the fact that I was completely self reliant. My AFKs didn't piss anyone off etc.

Now, also, will a group take a 57+ wizard over a 51 rogue with "lesser gear"? These are also points to consider. You'll get groups but for grinding out mobs fast, I yield to a well geared rogue being a grind machine.

That said, whenever I was called to Seb for xp or pvp, I always went..

[Nirgon]

dodging sarnaks.


The only thing I was dodging was the named gorilla.

I pulled out by the bee hives and quadded bees, giants and the non named gorilla. Gotta be real careful, he will piss in your cereal.

[Skope]

Raptors at 52 (not vicious raptors) are approximately 1.5% exp per quad, which takes up roughly 90% of my mana bar (with 203 int and +190 mana in items). Spirocs are only slightly better, since they take 55% of my mana per quad and are about 1% on average, although sometimes higher if I get a good set of blues. BW is a little more, but not much, and the time you take actually finding mobs and dodging sarnaks makes it slower than Spirocs (since Spirocs just sit around in the same place like morons and don't aggro).

Sorry, that's not very fast. It's not terrible, but a good group is faster.

Yea, I did spirocs until 53. Though it certainly slowed down towards the end it was still quiet and decent exp. You should really go for pillar of lightning before you try raptors as they have >4khp. I did entrance to KC (ravishings n' ragers) to 55 because raptors is so busy -- was quite nice.

You want to steer away from BW. Too many roamers and few safe places to med. Often wound up having to spend more time dodging roamers then I did quadding and killing stuff.

[Messianic]

Implying a good group is guarunteed? :eek:

Just playin' you a little on the comment don't freak out. Here's the deal...

Most groups I've had experiences with have a "gotta go" every 2 hours or so, no two players are on the same schedule. Then there's the down time of looking for certain classes etc with a seb key or are waiting outside the bubble no less. Mention of Karnor's XP is omitted because I always made less there than doing almost anything else.

But my point I guess I'm trying to make, is I had a higher play time and could bank on consistent/measurable XP and could bank on the fact that I was completely self reliant. My AFKs didn't piss anyone off etc.

Now, also, will a group take a 57+ wizard over a 51 rogue with "lesser gear"? These are also points to consider. You'll get groups but for grinding out mobs fast, I yield to a well geared rogue being a grind machine.

That said, whenever I was called to Seb for xp or pvp, I always went..

I agree with ya - that's why i do solo. Groups are erratic and it can be frustrating to make every effort and not get one.

Yea, I did spirocs until 53. Though it certainly slowed down towards the end it was still quiet and decent exp. You should really go for pillar of lightning before you try raptors as they have >4khp. I did entrance to KC (ravishings n' ragers) to 55 because raptors is so busy -- was quite nice.

You want to steer away from BW. Too many roamers and few safe places to med. Often wound up having to spend more time dodging roamers then I did quadding and killing stuff.

Thanks - Yeah, I might stick to Dreadlands for a while after i hit 53. That was my experience in BW as well - it was okay, but actually finding 4 mobs without aggroing extra junk or aggroing while medding was a pain.


Then again, I might just grind my 40 necro instead :P

[Muleworth]

"-Rain spells are HIGHLY underrated. They are perfect for casting and then medding while damage continues to hit the mob. Some wizards think that because they are aoe spells, that they should be used for multiple mobs....but the best use for these are when you have a single mob in camp. If no resists the mob will drop real fast!"

Second this. The only time I've really felt like a bad motherf-er on my wizard is pre-kunark doing AE at the royals in sol B.

Everyone's too conditioned to mez/cc adds and fight 1 mob, AE groups are great stuff.

[Akim]

Well, Maelstrom, I would say your post is very off-base. Wizards are not really better at chaining pulling than any other class (and your definition of chain pulling is not how such a thing should be done, if you're trying to be as efficient as possible). You don't need root, you just need a group that pays attention and tags the mobs as soon as you bring them in. Root is certainly helpful but it's such a widespread ability in the game that it doesn't set Wizards apart.

"Can't find a group? Make friends with a few mages or necros. These classes work well together in a duo type scenario" - This is an absurd statement. A necro or mage, who are perfectly capable of soloing, are not going to want to group with a freaking Wizard. All you'll do is slow them down with your inefficient ass. Also, rain spells are highly underrated? Riiiiight, have fun with those resists.



Oh please, what a tired and lame argument. Tons of people who play Everquest as a game (rather than trying to constantly farm/grind) dislike Wizards because of how poorly they were implemented. People want to contribute to a group, have fun with their buddies, and feel like they are pulling their weight. Wizards do not pull their weight. "The role that a wizard takes on" is supposed to be doing damage; the class was billed as being "masters of magical damage". Aside from magical damage sucking more and more as the game goes along, Wizards are usually not even the best class at it.

A Shaman later in the game will often do more DPS than a Wizard on nukes alone because of their superior mana regeneration. Then you add in the pet and it becomes a total joke. Not to mention Shaman can throw a poison DoT which is far more efficient than anything the Wizard can cast in fights that last 30+ seconds. That's only one aspect of the Shaman's abilities as well. They have amazing debuffs, they have amazing buffs, they can heal, and they even get ROOT. In comparison, Wizards have teleports and second-rate stuns. Nowhere close to balanced.

Hithrohir is dead-on with what he said on the last page. Burst damage simply isn't very useful in this game and Wizards aren't even that superior at doing burst damage, when compared to the damage output a Summoner (oops, I mean Magician, oops I mean Mage...why the hell did they name that class Magician???) can do between their pet and their own nukes within that same timeframe. When I played a Magician, I was often able to outdamage Wizards who came along and thought they could KS a camp by racing me to the kill.

Do you have both a shaman and a wizard end game?
Bet I do. :p Until then, I'll ask you not to direct words in my direction.

[Wizerud]

I don't plan on being Mr. Raid Guy and since most of my leveling will be done with 1 or 2 other friends, perhaps I should quit while I'm ahead.

I think I'm going to shelve ole Alzar now at level 10 as opposed to regretting sticking it out for 60 levels.

Thing is though, if you do have 1 or 2 friends that you're gonna be levelling with the majority of the time it makes the whole process a lot less boring on a wizard. If they are your friends, they shouldn't mind who you play and there will be the odd occasion where they'll be damn glad you played a wizard.

[Nirgon]

You can also solo high keep nobles / bards :)

PS: I'm not hearing any of that faction nonsense today!

[PearlJammzz]

Wizards, once AA's come out, are one of the single best classes to play. I have seen one solo take raid XP from 40 other ppl all grouped up. They get AMAZING with AA's, and really come into their own in Velious. Right now they are AMAZING for raid targets (trak) but not as amazing as a rogue in a group.

They are far from useless and GREAT if fighting caster mobs (chain interrupt, woots!). AMAZING for raid targets, and pretty decent utility. Most amazing EQ class? Not at this point. Worthless? Far from.

If this server goes into Luclin and beyond (AA's) I will be going back to a Wizard. They become demigods, no joke. You just have to have the AA's

[PearlJammzz]

Shit is messed up on this server if a mage is out-burt DPSing a wizzie at level 60 in Kunark. Maybe that's why they just knocked pet damage down?

Pets started out VERY op'd on this server. Mages were really OP'd in classic and that translated to here as well. On live Kunark/Velious era and beyond mages had no chance at burtst DPS over a wizzie, none.

[Atmas]

Wizards, once AA's come out, are one of the single best classes to play. I have seen one solo take raid XP from 40 other ppl all grouped up. They get AMAZING with AA's, and really come into their own in Velious. Right now they are AMAZING for raid targets (trak) but not as amazing as a rogue in a group.

They are far from useless and GREAT if fighting caster mobs (chain interrupt, woots!). AMAZING for raid targets, and pretty decent utility. Most amazing EQ class? Not at this point. Worthless? Far from.

If this server goes into Luclin and beyond (AA's) I will be going back to a Wizard. They become demigods, no joke. You just have to have the AA's

This post just brought back some memories. I remember I would go to raids and avoid joining groups (this was prior to raid xp) until I had to so I could get sweet xp. After a while though I would get spammed with invites whenever I showed up for a raid.

AAs definitely did a lot for Wizards, and those improved damage items mmmmm. :D

[Trelaboon]

Well, in spite of all of the negative things i've read, I decided that my heart was into a Wizard. I never tried one in live, and the ports sound fun and tempting, so despite what most of you have said, i'm gonna be playing one. The name is Dravex, and i'm level 15 now, look forward to suffering along through this classic experience with the rest of you gluttons for punishment (Wizards). =D See you in game!

[TheBlackSheep]

Well, in spite of all of the negative things i've read, I decided that my heart was into a Wizard. I never tried one in live, and the ports sound fun and tempting, so despite what most of you have said, i'm gonna be playing one. The name is Dravex, and i'm level 15 now, look forward to suffering along through this classic experience with the rest of you gluttons for punishment (Wizards). =D See you in game!

I did too, but that lasted ...oh, about 10 levels, heh. I quit live long ago because I wasn't having fun anymore. I'm not doing that again. I totally dig the nostalgia, but it is only 50% of why I started again on 1999. The other 50% is entertainment. But hey, whatever floats the ole boat. Good on ya man!

Azorath

[WizardEQ]

I did too, but that lasted ...oh, about 10 levels, heh. I quit live long ago because I wasn't having fun anymore. I'm not doing that again. I totally dig the nostalgia, but it is only 50% of why I started again on 1999. The other 50% is entertainment. But hey, whatever floats the ole boat. Good on ya man!

Azorath

I find the first 10 levels the worst. Not really the worst, maybe the most boring. After that just join a group and level up, real easy.

As I've said before, most people are super nice in the game here. I mean really, really nice! Kudos to all of you I've met in P99 so far!!

With /lfg on I may get an invite right away. If you're a 20+ wizard you don't need to find a port. Sometimes you may have to be a bit aggressive and go right up a group at the camp point and ask leader if they would like you. If they are full they'll give you a time-frame of who is leaving. If they are not full, I've been given an invite every time. I have very limited time to play with a family of 6, so every second I'm on has to be efficiently played. I am not interested in the fastest way to level, I'm interested in the way to have the most fun and that is usually with a group. It really comes down to how active / passive a person you are.

On a side note, the only really weird thing I've encountered is an SK that won't tank in MM. Kinda weird, but happened the last two nights and it's caused a bit of havoc in the group. So strange!

Xaxian

[TheBlackSheep]

I find the first 10 levels the worst. Not really the worst, maybe the most boring. After that just join a group and level up, real easy.

As I've said before, most people are super nice in the game here. I mean really, really nice! Kudos to all of you I've met in P99 so far!!

With /lfg on I may get an invite right away. If you're a 20+ wizard you don't need to find a port. Sometimes you may have to be a bit aggressive and go right up a group at the camp point and ask leader if they would like you. If they are full they'll give you a time-frame of who is leaving. If they are not full, I've been given an invite every time. I have very limited time to play with a family of 6, so every second I'm on has to be efficiently played. I am not interested in the fastest way to level, I'm interested in the way to have the most fun and that is usually with a group. It really comes down to how active / passive a person you are.

On a side note, the only really weird thing I've encountered is an SK that won't tank in MM. Kinda weird, but happened the last two nights and it's caused a bit of havoc in the group. So strange!

Xaxian

I will agree, the folks here are quite a bit more enjoyable.

Azorath

[Bodeanicus]

It costs mana. You obviously don't understand the concept of time=money, which in this case is mana=exp.

And since you have failed to understand everything else I said, as always, I will say it again in summation:

* I find it rude when people ask for buffs without first offering something to compensate for it.

* I dislike buffing people I am not grouped with or fond of because it negatively shifts the dynamic of the game (or at least how I see the game).

It's all about me, people. Ayn Rand was right about you parasites. What are you, pinko commie faggots who watch MSNBC, or something.

[Nirgon]

"-Rain spells are HIGHLY underrated.

On PvE servers =).

Wizard isn't a poor class choice to roll, and in Velious you'd be suprised the difference between a wizard heavy guild and a wizard light guild.

What really governs your choice of class to play should be play time and how many people you are rolling w/.

[Atmas]

On PvE servers =).


Yeah it was a blower when rains and AoEs hit members of your own group or raid. I remember on TZ being excited the first time I realized I was in all team group.

I have trouble recalling but I feel like they didn't make the change for raids to not be hit until way late, something like Luclin or PoP.

[Nirgon]

Wizard also awesome when pulls are healer intensive.

Anywho, the defense rests.

[Raavak]

A lot of wizards tend to use their highest level nukes in a group, which will drain mana and eventually lead to a long med break. Why? Lots of lowel level nukes work just as well, and will conserve mana a hell of a lot longer. Be wise with your arsenal and you'll be nuking a lot more than sitting on your ass.

Dmg/mana efficiency of DD's is better on higher level nukes.

Classes(level) Spell Name Efficiency
WIZ(1) Frost Bolt 0.70
WIZ(1) Shock of Frost 0.60
WIZ(4) Shock of Fire 1.07
WIZ(8) Shock of Ice 1.27
WIZ(8) Fire Bolt 1.28
WIZ(12) Shock of Lightning 1.38
WIZ(16) Flame Shock 1.47
WIZ(16) Lightning Bolt 1.47
WIZ(20) Tishan's Clash 0.77 (stun component)
WIZ(20) Force Shock 1.49
WIZ(24) Frost Shock 1.70
WIZ(29) Inferno Shock 1.85
WIZ(29) Thunder Strike 1.75 (stun component)
WIZ(34) Ice Shock 2.10
WIZ(39) Lightning Shock 2.25
WIZ(44) Enticement of Flame 1.50
WIZ(44) Force Strike 2.50 (stun component)
WIZ(44) Conflagration 2.50
WIZ(49) Markar's Clash 1.00 (stun component)
WIZ(49) Rend 2.80
WIZ(49) Ice Comet 2.80
WIZ(51) Tishan's Discord 2.00 (stun component)
WIZ(51) Draught of Fire 3.20
WIZ(52) Lure of Frost 2.06 (Lure)
WIZ(53) Jyll's Static Pulse 1.79 (stun component)
WIZ(54) Voltaic Draught 3.20
WIZ(55) Draught of Jiva 3.20 (stun component)
WIZ(55) Lure of Flame 2.06 (Lure)
WIZ(56) Markar's Discord 2.50 (stun component)
WIZ(57) Draught of Ice 3.40
WIZ(58) Lure of Lightning 2.05 (Lure)
WIZ(60) Lure of Ice 2.66 (Lure)
WIZ(60) Sunstrike 3.59

[Zuranthium]

Dmg/mana efficiency of DD's is better on higher level nukes.

While the nukes themselves are "more efficient", the Wizard themself in relation to the actual game is far less efficient as they get to the higher levels. MOBs have MUCH higher resists and HP in relation to the nukes, when compared to the lower levels, and thus they become a lot less effective. Especially in comparison to the damage melee classes will do.

It's all about me, people. Ayn Rand was right about you parasites. What are you, pinko commie faggots who watch MSNBC, or something.

:rolleyes:

Do you even understand that a "commie" supports a more equalized distribution of resources across society? Thus, it's not about them (that would be capitalism) but rather what's best for everyone as a whole? Of course, such a form of a governance has been better in theory than practice. Many of the other European countries, and Canada, have the right idea though.

Anyway, I'm all about helping people. But sometimes a person just wants to focus on work and reap the benefits. I'm soooooo sure you give money to every single person that comes up to you on the street, right? :rolleyes:

Not to mention my argument of how it negatively impacts the game if you were to just always hand out free buffs to everyone and thus make grouping less relevant.

[Raavak]

While the nukes themselves are "more efficient", the Wizard themself in relation to the actual game is far less efficient as they get to the higher levels. MOBs have MUCH higher resists and HP in relation to the nukes, when compared to the lower levels, and thus they become a lot less effective. Especially in comparison to the damage melee classes will do.


True, though its a "feel" kind of thing. Like at 51 in Seb/Chardok the new draught gets resisted, at 55+ not so much. A smart wizard will do what he has to do to make it work.

But even then you are low on the table when it comes to continuous dps.

I like my wizard, a class I didn't play on Live, but I never expected that I'd basically be forced to quad my way through Kunark, getting in the occasional AE group when I can.

[Atmas]

This horse has been beaten into a fine mist.

Wizards are not the best sustained dps for groups. They do have other advantages such as burning mobs and evacing.

Wizards are decent to good at soloing and are good for raids. When I played on live I can not recall a point where serious raiding guilds didn't have recruitment of Wizards as high. Obviously you can never have too many Clerics and some Warriors are essential but many of the other classes have diminishing value when stacked.

[soup]

...in other words completely made up bullshit.

I would never deny Clarity (or any other buff that is actually good) to someone in the group who needed it, although I often deny Clarity and other buffs to people who I'm not grouping with. Buffs cost mana and if I'm not grouping with you, trying to be "nice" in fact only hinders my own group or myself (if soloing). It's also flat-out rude to ask for a buff without first offering something, unless you're in my guild or we are good friends. That's how these things work.

I'm also quite simply against buffing outside of my group to begin with, unless I really like you, because it's an awful game mechanic.
Jesus fuck I already knew you were a tool, but this shows you are just a downright douchebag.

It's "flat-out rude to ask for a buff without first offering something"? I hope your corpse rots.

[Zuranthium]

I'm sorry that you don't understand etiquette or have standards. If you want a service from someone then you need to offer something for it. They may not end up charging you anything for it but that is their decision, not yours.

[soup]

I'm sorry that you don't understand etiquette or have standards. If you want a service from someone then you need to offer something for it. They may not end up charging you anything for it but that is their decision, not yours.

I'm a shaman. Don't tell me about buffing etiquette you self important tool.

[Muleworth]

I agree, if you're not offering up something you better be sugary nice in asking to have any reasonable shot of getting said buffs.

I hate that crap, so I just offer to pay and everyone's even happier.

[soup]

I agree, if you're not offering up something you better be sugary nice in asking to have any reasonable shot of getting said buffs.

I hate that crap, so I just offer to pay and everyone's even happier.

"Hey there, could I possibly trouble you for a SOW please?"
is MUCH better than
"50p for sow plz"

I don't care about your damn plat, I care about you communicating like a reasonable human being.

[Muleworth]

luckily for us that would rather pay than type flattery/fake niceness in exchange for buffs, you're in the vast minority

[Muleworth]

also, short forms make you a sub-human?

[Messianic]

Soup = madbro

[soup]

luckily for us that would rather pay than type flattery/fake niceness in exchange for buffs, you're in the vast minority

....where in the fuck do you see flattery in what I said?

Past that, people pretty often refuse to take the plat I offer them for buffs. Maybe it's because I don't talk like a douchebag when talking to them?

[soup]

Soup = madbro

seething with anger bro

[TheBlackSheep]

I'm sorry that you don't understand etiquette or have standards. If you want a service from someone then you need to offer something for it. They may not end up charging you anything for it but that is their decision, not yours.

What the hell is this, Bartertown?

This is a game, man. You hit a button, pixels come out, someone is happy, you sit for a few seconds, the blue bar goes back up. That's it.

Azorath

[Zuranthium]

*shrug*

I have my personal code and you have yours. When I'm focusing on exp gaming I don't want a single point of mana/health wasted. Part of the intensity of the game for me is maximizing everything that I can do and that my group can do. I don't find Everquest to be all that skill-intensive in comparison to other games, so to push myself it becomes of game of exact timing and allocation and doing as much as possible to maximize the situation.

Also, as I've said numerous times, free buffs can hinder the grouping aspect of the game. If you're fighting in a place where SoW is awesome then maybe you should group with someone who has it. If you find faster mana regeneration and attack speed to be awesome then maybe you should group with an Enchanter.

And, soup, nobody said people should act like douchebags just because they are offering money.

[TheBlackSheep]

*shrug*

I have my personal code and you have yours. When I'm focusing on exp gaming I don't want a single point of mana/health wasted. Part of the intensity of the game for me is maximizing everything that I can do and that my group can do. I don't find Everquest to be all that skill-intensive in comparison to other games, so to push myself it becomes of game of exact timing and allocation and doing as much as possible to maximize the situation.

Also, as I've said numerous times, free buffs can hinder the grouping aspect of the game. If you're fighting in a place where SoW is awesome then maybe you should group with someone who has it. If you find faster mana regeneration and attack speed to be awesome then maybe you should group with an Enchanter.

And, soup, nobody said people should act like douchebags just because they are offering money.

When I got to "my personal code" I stopped reading, sorry. It is painfully obvious that you take this game way too seriously.

Az

[Tewaz]

<a href="http://s1229.photobucket.com/albums/ee463/machin576/?action=view&amp;current=AwkwardCatPic.jpg" target="_blank"><img src="http://i1229.photobucket.com/albums/ee463/machin576/AwkwardCatPic.jpg" border="0" alt="Photobucket"></a>

[Weezard]

Wizards are not good in groups. Period. Exclamation point. Do they have some minor benefits? Yes. But the fact of the matter is that in 99.9% of the common grouping experience areas of the game, DPS is the only thing that matters. Consistent pulls + higher sustained DPS = no use for mana inefficient wizards. This is indisputable fact. There's a reason that high level wizards are few and far between. They aren't very fun to play and their usefulness in groups is extremely lacking.

Are you ready for the two most important spells that a wizard gets? They're the only two spells that actually make them a necessary class in the game.

1) Alter Plane : Hate
2) Alter Plane : Sky

Case closed.

[Tiggles]

I would like to reintroduce you guys to this thread.

http://www.project1999.org/forums/showthread.php?t=39590

[Estu]

This horse has been beaten into a fine mist.

I enjoyed this a lot.

[Tiggles]

I enjoyed this a lot.

Estu lvl 50 yet?


+1

[Zuranthium]

When I got to "my personal code" I stopped reading, sorry. It is painfully obvious that you take this game way too seriously.

Not really, everyone has a personal code. Yours is just different than mine.

[Tiggles]

Not really, everyone has a personal code. Yours is just different than mine.

God i just HATE you so MUCH

I will fully admit to being trolled so hard if you say you are trolling. You have to be a master of the art please give me such a small mercy and say that this is all a Troll.

No human being can be as annoying as you with out purposely trying to be so.

[jarshale]

I have my personal code and... tl;dr

Are you for real? This can't be.

[Zuranthium]

Everyone has different personal preferences and everyone wants to go about their business in different ways, to a degree.

Some people dislike overly twinking because it's bad for the overall game and lower level community and other people don't care about that and want the power rush for themselves and/or only care about the higher levels and want to rush to get there.

Some people will not group with a person because they find them to be a nasty individual and other people don't care and will group with whoever is available.

Some people hate playing melee characters and won't do it and other people love it.

Yes, everyone has a personal code, whatever it may be. Even if you don't overtly think about it or proclaim it.

[BelenosThePagan]

Belenos' personal code: Not that big a fuckin deal to throw a sow up on someone. and a /thank is payment enough

[Nirgon]

Wizards are not good in groups. Period. Exclamation point. Do they have some minor benefits? Yes. But the fact of the matter is that in 99.9% of the common grouping experience areas of the game, DPS is the only thing that matters. Consistent pulls + higher sustained DPS = no use for mana inefficient wizards. This is indisputable fact. There's a reason that high level wizards are few and far between. They aren't very fun to play and their usefulness in groups is extremely lacking.

Are you ready for the two most important spells that a wizard gets? They're the only two spells that actually make them a necessary class in the game.

1) Alter Plane : Hate
2) Alter Plane : Sky

Case closed.

Wizard especially known to be terrible on fights like Venril Sathir or... oh any raid boss.

[Messianic]

I don't get the big problem. Zura's just relatively transparent in his communication - I don't see why it's such a big annoyance to everyone else that someone else has confidence in themselves - even if that confidence is misplaced or in a higher degree than you think.

It's just way too much effort to try to convince someone that they're not as good as they think they are - and i don't think Zura is even that bad about it, if at all. At least he's always open for discussion.

[Decad]

Wizards are not good in groups. Period. Exclamation point. Do they have some minor benefits? Yes. But the fact of the matter is that in 99.9% of the common grouping experience areas of the game, DPS is the only thing that matters. Consistent pulls + higher sustained DPS = no use for mana inefficient wizards. This is indisputable fact. There's a reason that high level wizards are few and far between. They aren't very fun to play and their usefulness in groups is extremely lacking.

Are you ready for the two most important spells that a wizard gets? They're the only two spells that actually make them a necessary class in the game.

1) Alter Plane : Hate
2) Alter Plane : Sky

Case closed.

With reference to your 1st paragraph :-

I agree with you. You are spot on.

With reference to your 2nd paragraph :-

I remembered this game is meant to relive the classic EQ experience. If that is indeed the case, try raiding Kunark bosses and Velious bosses without wizards.

However if this game is NOT meant to relive the classic EQ experience then I agree with you absolutely.

[Decad]

True, though its a "feel" kind of thing. Like at 51 in Seb/Chardok the new draught gets resisted, at 55+ not so much. A smart wizard will do what he has to do to make it work.

But even then you are low on the table when it comes to continuous dps.

I like my wizard, a class I didn't play on Live, but I never expected that I'd basically be forced to quad my way through Kunark, getting in the occasional AE group when I can.

Bro, we are forced to solo anything or make groups ourselves if we want one pre Luclin.

Wizards are an absolute social outcast pre luclin from level 1-59. Although AA came into play in Luclin and it doesnt really affect level 1-59 but the general public perception towards wizards changed.

At level 60 the game changes for wizards because by then a smart wizard would have associated himself/herself with a raid guild and will be welcomed to tag along guild groups in dungeons and finally have a shot at getting the stuff that is selling in EC without forking out cold hard cash.

[Raavak]

Lesson learned. I guess I ignored what the wizards were doing on live in the Kunark era. Its still fun being a wizard, just lonely at times, and I'm not getting rich anytime soon either.

Skyfire AE groups are the exception.

[baalzy]

I remember on live people loving Wizards in groups because of their OMGWTFDPS. I think that's before people realized how to maximize their XP Per hour.

The same thing happened with blackmages in FFXI. In the beginning people loved them, as the game evolved and people got smart and realized you leveled faster by killing 10 mobs for 100 xp each then killing 3 mobs for 200 xp each in the same amount of time.

In FFXI blms just evolved and learned how to solo till they got to 60ish and then they formed burn groups and could xp in a pack just as fast/faster then the melees if they hunted the right mobs.

I guess the equivalent here would be AOE groups, which are sick (and lazy) xp if done right.

[RiffDaemon]

I understand where Zura's coming from. I don't get to play very much - like, hardly at all. When I get a spare two hours to do something, I'd like to spend that time advancing (i.e. grinding) if at all possible. When I run around SoW'ing everyone, my manatank is on empty by the time I get where I want to be. Then, I have to wait for it all to come back, buff myself to Hell, and wait for it all to come back again before I can start killing anything. So, I end up spending most of my time sitting down and staring at my spellbook .. figuratively speaking, of course.

However, my character is a mushy teddy-bear of a troll who loves to help everyone whenever possible, and that's part of my enjoyment of playing the game. Hell, I ran from the farside of the pit in OT all the way to Skyfire to give someone a SoW, and I ended up dying from a high-level tiger that spawned on top of me, losing almost half an orange of xp in the process. That sucked, and it sure wasn't an efficient use of my time; but, I'll do it again and again if someone asks.

I don't expect that out of everyone; that's MY personal code. Zura has his own code and his own expectations, and that sounds perfectly fine to me.

[soup]

I understand where Zura's coming from. I don't get to play very much - like, hardly at all. When I get a spare two hours to do something, I'd like to spend that time advancing (i.e. grinding) if at all possible. When I run around SoW'ing everyone, my manatank is on empty by the time I get where I want to be. Then, I have to wait for it all to come back, buff myself to Hell, and wait for it all to come back again before I can start killing anything. So, I end up spending most of my time sitting down and staring at my spellbook .. figuratively speaking, of course.

However, my character is a mushy teddy-bear of a troll who loves to help everyone whenever possible, and that's part of my enjoyment of playing the game. Hell, I ran from the farside of the pit in OT all the way to Skyfire to give someone a SoW, and I ended up dying from a high-level tiger that spawned on top of me, losing almost half an orange of xp in the process. That sucked, and it sure wasn't an efficient use of my time; but, I'll do it again and again if someone asks.

I don't expect that out of everyone; that's MY personal code. Zura has his own code and his own expectations, and that sounds perfectly fine to me.

"Personal code" crap aside, what I took issue with wasn't the reluctance to freely SOW people, but rather the fact that he seems to think it's "flat-out rude to ask for a buff without offering something in return." If someone thinks it's rude when someone politely asks for something without offering a BJ in return, the person who thinks it's rude has got be one pretentious fucker.

[Bodeanicus]

So, the guy's a dick. So what? Don't group with him, and don't buff him. Ever. His attitude will change real quick. End of problem.

[RiffDaemon]

If someone thinks it's rude when someone politely asks for something without offering a BJ in return, the person who thinks it's rude has got be one pretentious fucker.

Who wouldn't give a jobby for crack? :confused: http://img3.harmony-central.com/acapella/ubb/cop.gif

[Skope]

It can be a pain in the ass getting tells for buffs, speaking as a shaman. When not /role I get tells in whichever zone I'm in, regardless of what camp i'm holding and where with people asking for buffages. It may not be a big deal when you're right next to a person or you're sitting there practically afk with nothing to do, but it's often when you're soloing or grouping and mana and clearing a camp is an issue. If it's just an SoW then sure, but sometimes it's the full shibang. I don't accept tips for buffs, but if you're taking me out of my groove just so i have to sit there for another 2-3 minutes while you get to solo my mobs with that regrowth that I just gave you then don't be surprised if i decline the tip and tell you to go away.

[ryandward]

Yes, I regret it. Mostly because they aren't set up the way they should be, under the guise of being "classic". There are some design flaws, but that is the way the devs think they should be, which is totally dumb to me.

Wizards *NEED* crits, and harvest. Give us those, I will be happy.

A very simple fix; although not classic or ever implemented, would be this:

Make it like warriors except with mana; when you are really low on mana you get a chance to land a crippling blow too.

[Galanteer]

yea I have had people come up to my camp, while i am in combat, and open a trade window with a few pp expecting me to buff them...not asking, nothing.

other times I have been trained by someone so desperate for their buff that the endangered or killed my group (again not asking, I would have said don't come)

I could come up with hundreds of examples of this, so yea I understand the attitude of reluctance to buff.

Now my 'credo' in game has been to depend on the group/guild I am with. I won't /ooc looking for xyz nor will I send a tell to a stranger asking for something.

This is not to say I don't appreciate random buffs, and also I will spend time and energy randomly buffing people when the mood stikes.

Personally, if I am in a group adventuring somewhere and random soandso sends me a tell asking for xyz, I just ignore it.

Back to the original topic -to me a good player of whatever class has room in a group, back in classic/live wizards often filled the important roll of evac/snare where dungeon groups needed 4 basic things -tank, healer, crowd control and snare. On this version the snare isn't required so wiz are even less needed.
A few wizards really shined back in classic, and would never hesitate to invite them to a group.

[Messianic]

Wizards *NEED* crits, and harvest. Give us those, I will be happy.

Your original statement was something like "give me crits and harvest and im happy", but you added "needs" so i'll respond.

Crits and harvest would barely make a scratch in the wizard class overall, nor do they "NEED" them. It would be nice, but it definitely isn't a need.

[ryandward]

Your original statement was something like "give me crits and harvest and im happy", but you added "needs" so i'll respond.

Crits and harvest would barely make a scratch in the wizard class overall, nor do they "NEED" them. It would be nice, but it definitely isn't a need.

They need them, in the sense that it will make us wizards happy, and feel like we have something cool that other classes don't have, and we would probably stop complaining.

[ryandward]

Fizzler on the root

[Zuranthium]

If someone thinks it's rude when someone politely asks for something without offering a BJ in return, the person who thinks it's rude has got be one pretentious fucker.

I never said it had to be extravagant, although I definitely give buffs for BJs if you can fit my cock in your mouth, rather it's a simple matter of asking "Hello, may I please buy XXX buff from you?" instead of "Hello, can you give me XXX buff please?"

Even if you're nice about it, there is a level of disrespect if you don't offer something in return first. Unless you are on friendly terms of course. (roleplaying counts as "offering something" in my book as well -- you're providing entertainment)

[Atmas]

I love the two concurrent topics in this thread.

Wizards could use crits. They eventually added innate crits to the class. Harvest which restores around 10% of Wizard mana would also be pretty nice to have here.

Wizards really started to shine when AAs came into play.

[soup]

I never said it had to be extravagant, although I definitely give buffs for BJs if you can fit my cock in your mouth, rather it's a simple matter of asking "Hello, may I please buy XXX buff from you?" instead of "Hello, can you give me XXX buff please?"

Even if you're nice about it, there is a level of disrespect if you don't offer something in return first. Unless you are on friendly terms of course. (roleplaying counts as "offering something" in my book as well -- you're providing entertainment)

There is a huge disparity in perspective here. You're talking about it like it's some piece of property being given, received, bought, sold, whatever. I'm looking at it as clicking on someone and pushing the "6" on my keyboard.

[Skope]

Wizards really started to shine when AAs came into play.

I think "shine" isn't the proper term. They started becoming more viable in a group scenario with AA's (outside of AoE) because they evened out the damage output and longevity/usefulness, along with rangers, SKs, pallies.

[WizardEQ]

Everyone should play this game exactly as they wish.

Problems arise when you start expecting others to play similar to your playing style. Classes compliment each other, some better than others. Wizards love enchanters. Warriors love shamans. Jesus loves clerics.

As a wizard, I cannot tell you the countless times I've been randomly thrown a Clarity. I might have to scroll up a dozen lines to see who it was and send a tell thanking them (which I always do). Do I expect a random C? Never. Do I love it when it's thrown my way. Absolutely!

Having only ever played a wizard, I know I will be expected to provide ports when I hit 29. It will be up to me, and only me, to decide who gets one and who does not. When I played in '99-'02, I was VERY generous granting requests for ports only when I was not fighting in a group. If I'm grouped and some idiot sends a tell "Port to NK 100pp" that will always be ignored; it wouldn't be fair to the group. Idiots don't take time to realize when someone is busy (in Unrest, Seb) or not (in EC or somewhere neutral). The original population is 12 years older so most have matured beyond that point but there are still a lot of insensitive people out there.

As for the efficiency of wizards in a group, I got 8 yellows last night in almost 5 hours and dinged twice. The group was Ranger, Cleric, Pally, 2 Wizards, Druid. We had a blast (yup) in Unrest with near continuous pulls, even with the CE group training to zone and killing 2 members which cost us around 15-20 minutes of downtime. Sure, you could assemble a group to probably get 10 yellows in that time, but it might not have been as fun!

This topic has been going on since March 16, 1999, and frankly I'm sick of it.

Xaxian

[ryandward]

Just thought about this... Why do Mages get the Malosi line of spells, and not Wizards? Not asking for Malosi, but it doesn't make sense to me why they would get it, when their life doesn't depend on their nukes as much as Wizards.

[Zuranthium]

Yes, I regret it. Mostly because they aren't set up the way they should be, under the guise of being "classic". There are some design flaws, but that is the way the devs think they should be, which is totally dumb to me.

Wizards *NEED* crits, and harvest. Give us those, I will be happy.Crits and harvest would barely make a scratch in the wizard class overall, nor do they "NEED" them. It would be nice, but it definitely isn't a need.

Yeah, Crits and Harvest really don't mean much. Harvest was absolutely terrible; the long cast time made it weak in combat when you need the quick mana and it generated barely any extra mana anyway...enough for 1 extra nuke every 10 minutes. Crits were mainly showy fun and didn't increase sustained DPS by much, nor were they at all reliable for trying to burn down a target when you really need to.

To be useful as a class, without imbalancing them, Wizards need to actually be great at killing things quickly but not be near the top in terms of sustained DPS. Harvest could be a class-defining ability which allows them to do just that. I would set the spell as this:

Harvest:

Spell level: 4
Cost: 1 mana
Cast time: 1 second
Recharge time: 5 minutes
Effect: For the next 30 seconds, your non-teleport spells cost (Level * 2) percent extra mana, deal (Level * 4) percent extra damage for every level up through 50, plus 10 percent extra damage for each additional level after 50 (meaning that at level 60 spells would do 4x their normal damage), and the resistance modifier of your spells is improved by (Level / 2).

The extra damage spells do via Harvest would not count towards damage that determines which group or individual "gets the kill". In other words, this ability wouldn't make Wizards overpowered when it comes to kill stealing. "Boss" mobs could also be tagged to take less damage from Harvest, if the skill was making those encounters too easy.

[greatdane]

Because wizards get near-unresistable lures, and a minor -resist check on their normal nukes.

[ryandward]

Yeah, Crits and Harvest really don't mean much. Harvest was absolutely terrible; the long cast time made it weak in combat when you need the quick mana and it generated barely any extra mana anyway...enough for 1 extra nuke every 10 minutes. Crits were mainly showy fun and didn't increase sustained DPS by much, nor were they at all reliable for trying to burn down a target when you really need to.

To be useful as a class, without imbalancing them, Wizards need to actually be great at killing things quickly but not be near the top in terms of sustained DPS. Harvest could be a class-defining ability which allows them to do just that. I would set the spell as this:

Harvest:

Spell level: 4
Cost: 1 mana
Cast time: 1 second
Recharge time: 5 minutes
Effect: For the next 30 seconds, your spells deal (Level * 7) percent extra damage and the resistance modifier of your spells is improved by (Level / 2).

The extra damage spells do via Harvest would not count towards damage that determines which group or individual "gets the kill". In other words, this ability wouldn't make Wizards overpowered when it comes to kill stealing. "Boss" mobs could also be tagged to take less damage from Harvest, if the skill was making those encounters too easy.

There are no other spells in EQ that work this way (currently). It won't get implemented.

[ryandward]

Because wizards get near-unresistable lures, and a minor -resist check on their normal nukes.

Come group with me in OT, I am getting resisted about 15-30% of the time on whites.

[jarshale]

Harvest:

Effect: For the next 30 seconds, your spells deal (Level * 7) percent extra damage and the resistance modifier of your spells is improved by (Level / 2).


Somehow a buff that at level 50 adds 350% damage to your spells seems kind of broken. I'm not an expert though

[Galanteer]

Now my 'credo' in game has been to depend on the group/guild I am with. I won't /ooc looking for xyz nor will I send a tell to a stranger asking for something.

I should have said, I will seldom /ooc for xyz.

[Zuranthium]

Somehow a buff that at level 50 adds 350% damage to your spells seems kind of broken.

Numbers may have to be tweaked of course, those initial numbers that I threw off the top of my head are actually not accurate to what I was envisioning in the first place (updated the post now), but the point is that a Wizard could quickly kill 1 or 2 targets on a relatively consistent basis. It would give them a valuable purpose in the game while still keeping their sustained DPS quite a bit lower than that of other classes.

[Acillatem]

AA Crits were more for show. Yes they helped - but the smart WIZ got Spell Casting Mastery and Subtlety first. They helped more.

The thing about AAs were that individually they didn't make a big difference - but as a whole gave a tremendous (and much needed) boost to the WIZ class.

For some other classes it was somewhat different. Get one particular AA and you are golden. For the WIZ it was like building a puzzle and each AA line was it's own piece.

[ryandward]

AA Crits were more for show. Yes they helped - but the smart WIZ got Spell Casting Mastery and Subtlety first. They helped more.

The thing about AAs were that individually they didn't make a big difference - but as a whole gave a tremendous (and much needed) boost to the WIZ class.

For some other classes it was somewhat different. Get one particular AA and you are golden. For the WIZ it was like building a puzzle and each AA line was it's own piece.

You are right, however for the scope of p1999, the best fix would be to recalculate dmg/mana ratios and put Wizards much higher than they are.

[falkun]

You are right, however for the scope of p1999, the best fix would be to recalculate dmg/mana ratios and put Wizards much higher than they are.

That only solves a player-made problem. Wizards are still highly effective at dropping that annoying healer before he can get a heal off. They are still highly effective at dropping a boss from 70% to 0% faster than the melee are going to kill him. Wizards are still highly effective at getting that crucial EVAC off deep in dungeon where CR would really suck. Players have decided that sustained DPS is better than burst, or the utility offered by a wizard. Game mechanics still exist the give preferential treatment to including a wizard in your party.

If they had higher dmg/mana ratios, then they would be even better at doing what they do: unloading a manabar on some poor boss mob.

[fuark]

Harvest:

Spell level: 4
Cost: 1 mana
Cast time: 1 second
Recharge time: 5 minutes
Effect: For the next 30 seconds, your non-teleport spells cost (Level * 2) percent extra mana, deal (Level * 4) percent extra damage for every level up through 50, plus 10 percent extra damage for each additional level after 50 (meaning that at level 60 spells would do 4x their normal damage), and the resistance modifier of your spells is improved by (Level / 2).


Arcane Power?

[Nirgon]

You are right, however for the scope of p1999, the best fix would be to recalculate dmg/mana ratios and put Wizards much higher than they are.

I don't think this server is about balancing classes, but keeping it classic.

[Reppy]

I played a Wizard here and still do, play a monk due to people not picking up my wizard in a group. As A wizard it is all about useing your dps\mana I have always been about to output more dps while saving mana for the next mob and not going oom in a group tons of time. To many people have gotten bad wizards in there group and made them look gimped. I remember being able to output more damage in live then here at the same lvl or i could be wrong. When I am grouped on my wiz I lean more towards no agro and doing a moderate about of dps and saving a little more mana, then unloading 30% of my mana on one mob. I see alot of folks use rain spells. I never really used rain spells in vs single dd it can be deadly for the wizard or the group depending on where you are and what you might break or aggro. I would def say the wizard are a big underdog here, and I thought that Vel helped the wizard class out not luclin. During Vel they get there familier which gave a boost to there Mana Regen/DMG, Harvest was the 300 mana regen spell that had like a 8-10 min timer. Which that happened in Vel not in luclin.

[ryandward]

I don't think this server is about balancing classes, but keeping it classic.

I think you are right, but then why are there SO many patches about damage recalculation for melee, etc?

[ryandward]

Harvest was the 300 mana regen spell that had like a 8-10 min timer. Which that happened in Vel not in luclin.

It happened some time during Kunark

http://web.archive.org/web/200012100158/http://eq.castersrealm.com/spells/spells.asp?Class=Wizard

This is from November 2000

[Nirgon]

I think you are right, but then why are there SO many patches about damage recalculation for melee, etc?

Because as I know it, melee damage calcs aren't presented exactly the way one would think. There's a lot of subjective measures and then you have special cases for if something is higher level, weapon skill, etc etc.

The code you get to start with doing an eqemu is almost unusable for calculating anything classic or even live for that matter.

What FEELS fair and what IS classic is very different.

[Zuranthium]

Wizards are still highly effective at dropping that annoying healer before he can get a heal off.

How so? Their burst damage at higher levels doesn't come anywhere close to killing a MOB that is at the amount of health where it will generally begin healing. The most effective way to deal with healers is to stun them. Wizards can do that, but Enchanters do it far better because their stuns cost 1/3 the amount of mana, cast faster, and cycle faster. Clerics can stun more efficiently than Wizards as well.

If it's a target that can't be stunned, well, that's why you want 3 or 4 melee in your party. They have a chance of interrupting the cast from attacks and if the heal gets off it's not a huge deal anyway (unless it was a Cheal) because the constant damage they do is better than having a Wizard in the party. Since melee do far more DPS than a Wizard, it means targets drop quicker. The Wizard might do more damage in a short timeframe when the target is at lower health, and thus lessen the amount of heals it can get off, but having the Wizard in your party means it takes longer to get the target to the point where it will begin healing in the first place. Thus, the target isn't actually dying much quicker with the Wizard in the party, in comparison to another melee class instead, and for every 1 target that the Wizard might help drop a bit quicker, there are 2 or 3 more they won't have mana for that a melee could be doing significant damage to.

[Nirgon]

When bashes and warrior kicks run out, a wizard should have it dead by then.

[Atmas]

How much more discussion can there be about Wizards not doing well in groups pulling one at a time?

Complaining about Wizard sustained DPS is like complaining about Rogue healing ablities. The class was designed to be good at some aspects and balanced by not being good at other aspects.

I imagine that after playing some other MMOs like WoW people forget what the point of a mana bar is. EQ is designed a lot closer to the first ruleset of DnD where destructive classes like Wizards were limited in the amount of their abilities they could use in a certain time period.

I still feel that Luclin was tremendous for Wizards, AAs for reducing spell hate, decreasing cast time, decreasing spell cost, and even to a degree crits improved the ability for Wizards to do more damage, earlier, faster and longer. Up until that point all Wizards of equal levels and spells, given the same buffs, did the same DPS, the only difference was who would go OOM first. Infact until AAs with some agro issues you couldn't even go OOM on some encounters.

I'll never regret playing a wizard because:
1. I get to blow shit up
2. I can solo for xp
3. Despite my sustained DPS sucking I have saved groups on several occasions when too many mobs have come back from a pull and there is no mez.
4. I live exploring and traveling and its nice to not have to look for a port if I want to go somewhere else.

Btw Ace good to see an old TZer. I remember doing some Kedge runs with you and KoTWR. Ace is King of Kedge!

[Kope]

Btw Ace good to see an old TZer. I remember doing some Kedge runs with you and KoTWR. Ace is King of Kedge!

Ah yes, KotWR was good times. Your guild was one, if not the longest running guild on TZ, was still running in PoP if i remember correctly.

This is Walluen btw, played quite well with some of you guys after the initial burst on TZ.

[Scroll]

<--- Tilde

Ah, the bastard children of Pandemonium ;)

[Zuranthium]

How much more discussion can there be about Wizards not doing well in groups pulling one at a time?

Complaining about Wizard sustained DPS is like complaining about Rogue healing ablities. The class was designed to be good at some aspects and balanced by not being good at other aspects.

Illegitimate comparison. Yeah, Wizards aren't supposed to be sustained DPS, but they are supposed to be burst DPS. The problem is that they can't actually kill a target quickly at the higher levels.

Your "groups who pull one at a time" statement rings pretty clueless from my vantage point. AoE groups simply are not viable for most of the higher end content. People don't just pull one at a time anyway, multiples are often pulled and the solution is to use MEZMERIZE. Even if the Wizard was better at their intended game purpose, it wouldn't change the way people do combat at the higher levels with the way EQ is currently setup. It would simply make the Wizard more competitive for the 5th and 6th slots in a group, after the necessary base of "Tank, DPS, Enchanter/Bard, (C)Healer" have been achieved.

[ryandward]

How much more discussion can there be about Wizards not doing well in groups pulling one at a time?

Complaining about Wizard sustained DPS is like complaining about Rogue healing ablities. The class was designed to be good at some aspects and balanced by not being good at other aspects.

I imagine that after playing some other MMOs like WoW people forget what the point of a mana bar is. EQ is designed a lot closer to the first ruleset of DnD where destructive classes like Wizards were limited in the amount of their abilities they could use in a certain time period.

I still feel that Luclin was tremendous for Wizards, AAs for reducing spell hate, decreasing cast time, decreasing spell cost, and even to a degree crits improved the ability for Wizards to do more damage, earlier, faster and longer. Up until that point all Wizards of equal levels and spells, given the same buffs, did the same DPS, the only difference was who would go OOM first. Infact until AAs with some agro issues you couldn't even go OOM on some encounters.

I'll never regret playing a wizard because:
1. I get to blow shit up
2. I can solo for xp
3. Despite my sustained DPS sucking I have saved groups on several occasions when too many mobs have come back from a pull and there is no mez.
4. I live exploring and traveling and its nice to not have to look for a port if I want to go somewhere else.

Btw Ace good to see an old TZer. I remember doing some Kedge runs with you and KoTWR. Ace is King of Kedge!

Agree, why are we only 10% more efficient than everybody else, while giving up a LOT

[Atmas]

Illegitimate comparison. Yeah, Wizards aren't supposed to be sustained DPS, but they are supposed to be burst DPS. The problem is that they can't actually kill a target quickly at the higher levels.

And this illegitimizes my comment in what way? If you think Wizards aren't up to snuff with burst dps it would make more sense for that to be improved than complain about their sustained dps. Btw what classes kill one mob faster atm?



Your "groups who pull one at a time" statement rings pretty clueless from my vantage point. AoE groups simply are not viable for most of the higher end content. People don't just pull one at a time anyway, multiples are often pulled and the solution is to use MEZMERIZE. Even if the Wizard was better at their intended game purpose, it wouldn't change the way people do combat at the higher levels with the way EQ is currently setup. It would simply make the Wizard more competitive for the 5th and 6th slots in a group, after the necessary base of "Tank, DPS, Enchanter/Bard, (C)Healer" have been achieved.

It may ring "clueless" because you are so obsessed with one aspect of gameplay and being an enchanter. You don't have to group with Wizards if you don't want.

[Weezard]

The best way I can sum up the entire argument here is by this:

Everquest is a marathon 99.9% of the time, and a sprint .1% of the time.

Wizards win the sprint.

Cheers.

[Krait]

Wow, what a read. My re-noob'd head is spinning.

Since we've established without a shadow of a doubt that wizards are not good (maybe), are there any casters that are good damage dealers in a group?

[greatdane]

Caster DPS in general is kinda shitty until Luclin+, although it can be useful in certain situations. It's just not good for the kind of roles you'll want to fill in ordinary gameplay. I'd say the best group DPS caster is magician. Necromancers are actually alright too if the group doesn't have an enchanter. People just don't really look for mages and necros when they fill spots because they assume they're all out soloing somewhere, which is usually correct.

[Raavak]

I'd say the best group DPS caster is magician. Necromancers are actually alright too if the group doesn't have an enchanter.

Even moreso when epics come out. Mage epic pet is a beast.

[Zuranthium]

If you think Wizards aren't up to snuff with burst dps it would make more sense for that to be improved than complain about their sustained dps.

The former is what I advocated...

Of course, their sustained DP, or rather the efficiency of their nukes during their prime uptime, needs to be increased as well. If you only increase their burst DPS (directly multiplying the mana cost and damage of their spells by the same amount from what they currently are in game), they still aren't good enough because of how inefficient it would be; they wouldn't be able to burst frequently enough.

[Ohno]

nm dunno how this showed up.

[Razdeline]

Sunstrike chain cast is 200dps...wizards are tops in raids. Ridiculous burst.

[Flunklesnarkin]

can't beat a wizard for spike damage.


If you absolutely need something dead in a few secs.. get a wizard.

[sbvera13]

Enchanters bring strategic crowd control.

Wizards bring strategic crowd elimination.

[MissingNo]

Enchanters bring strategic crowd control.

Wizards bring strategic crowd elimination.

This is sig-worthy

[Matalus]

posting on bumped necro thread but wizards are a must in the raiding scene

[nalkin]

Wizards are the last class I want to see in my group because they are such a waste of a spot

[Lazortag]

"Wizards are the last class I want to see in my group because they are such a waste of a spot"
-Nalkin, forever AFK mage

[Zuranthium]

Sunstrike chain cast is 200dps...wizards are tops in raids. Ridiculous burst.

Sunstrike chain cast is 170-200 DPS, while mana permits, if it never gets resisted. Top raid targets resist more than half of the damage and it becomes worse in Velious, along with the hitpoints of monsters skyrocketing there as well.

[Matalus]

^ reason why wizards were giving lures. Wizards are top for burning down any single target raid mob hands down, this can not be argued

[Zuranthium]

It depends on how long the fight is. There reaches a point where the Wizard's compressed damage doesn't matter because it takes so long to kill the target that melees do more damage over the course of the fight anyway. The Wizard is no longer actually allowing the team to kill the target any faster than they would have if a melee had been there instead of the Wizard (the opposite, in fact).

That speaks not just to class imbalance but also how poorly the combat mechanics and the combat encounters themselves were designed by that point (stand around auto-attacking and chain-healing with Clerics...so boring). There's a massive gulf of improvement that Everquest needs in this regard. Now if only someone would make a game with the fundamentals that made Everquest so amazing + implementations that allow those fundamentals to not be ruined by players trying to play the game as if it was color-by-the-numbers + vastly improved (and varied) combat mechanics and combat encounters.

[Nirgon]

Sunstrike chain cast is 170-200 DPS, while mana permits, if it never gets resisted. Top raid targets resist more than half of the damage and it becomes worse in Velious, along with the hitpoints of monsters skyrocketing there as well.

Yeah it gets worse for wizards in Velious (http://everquest.allakhazam.com/db/item.html?item=8427)


http://storage.people.com/people/archive/jpgs/19920504/19920504-750-141.jpg

[Ikonoclastia]

Lol. Anyone who disregards another player as a waste of a slot because of lowered dps really should'nt play mmo's.

Worst groups by far are the ones where nobody talks, other then to say pull! or worse start criticizing someones dps contribution lol.

In WoW I played a healer and my girlfriend was a casual dps warrior. On heroics if peeps started to be nasty to her for her gearscore or dps I'd wait for a decent pull and we'd both leave n let em die. fun times.

How stat dps whores need to be treated.

[fischsemmel]

Lol. Anyone who disregards another player as a waste of a slot because of lowered dps really should'nt play mmo's.

Worst groups by far are the ones where nobody talks, other then to say pull! or worse start criticizing someones dps contribution lol.

In WoW I played a healer and my girlfriend was a casual dps warrior. On heroics if peeps started to be nasty to her for her gearscore or dps I'd wait for a decent pull and we'd both leave n let em die. fun times.

How stat dps whores need to be treated.

I can totally see how everyone now believes that your girlfriend (and you too) were NOT a waste of space, what with you having a tantrum when other people didn't like you bringing down the way they play the game (even though you're on a soapbox about the same thing) and then you wiped the group over it.

Totally not a waste of space.

[Raavak]

It depends on how long the fight is. There reaches a point where the Wizard's compressed damage doesn't matter because it takes so long to kill the target that melees do more damage over the course of the fight anyway.
Kunark mobs have 32k hp max. I've very rarely go completely oom on a mob I was properly prepared for, like when raid dps barely is outdoing mob regen (those are fun fights!).


As for resisted nukes, you learn what to cast one what. The only time I get full resists is when a belly caster moves off me. If you are getting resisted alot you are doing it wrong.

[Ikonoclastia]

I can totally see how everyone now believes that your girlfriend (and you too) were NOT a waste of space, what with you having a tantrum when other people didn't like you bringing down the way they play the game (even though you're on a soapbox about the same thing) and then you wiped the group over it.

Totally not a waste of space.
If you are unreasonably nasty to someone I know in game, especially my gf (now wife) or kid I'll gladly let you die and feast on your tells of rage.

I'm a troll shaman, we're evil.

[Zuranthium]

Nirgon, those dragon and giant-only nukes are necessary for keeping Wizards at all relevant (outside of teleports) in Velious. They become worse in every other encounter as compared to Kunark. Plane of Mischief and Plane of Growth are particularly gruesome. There are monsters there with literally a million hit points. Caster damage is a joke.

[Flunklesnarkin]

I don't mind grouping with wizards.. because i know i'll probably need a port from one at some point.

[stormlord]

The problem is that the content isn't designed to cater to what a wizard offers. If huge burst damage was widely useful, it'd be different. There's very rarely a need to burn a mob down in a hurry, especially as mob hp grows to the point where you pretty much can't. Towards the end of Kunark, and certainly in Velious, it gets to the point where the mobs simply die faster if you apply the sustained DPS of a melee class throughout the entire fight. If it had been so that wizards, despite having a lower general DPS, were frequently needed to burn down mobs during hypothetical dangerous phases or whatever, they might serve a purpose. It just isn't really there, and for the vast majority of the game's content, a wizard is resigned to sitting around nuking each mob once and doing horrible DPS with no situations coming up where the ability to burn shit down becomes valuable.

The math has already been done in this thread. While rudimentary, it's pretty straight-forward - consider the damage to mana ratio, the time it takes to get that amount of mana back, and you have a general DPS figure. Then consider that a wizard contributes absolutely nothing else during combat and you have proof that the class is simply weak. Their ports are a tertiary convenience, their evacs are only needed if things don't go right (which they usually do with this playerbase, most everyone being hardcore EQ veterans who know their shit) and the ability to interrupt casters is neither rare nor particularly critical in a group setting. Plus it costs DPS for the wizard, unlike other classes.

I think the simple fact that magician nukes are only 10% worse than a wizard's while their pet approaches the DPS of an additional melee class is enough to discount wizard as a viable DPS role. And even magicians are considered sub-par. Lures are hugely mana-inefficient and are used only on the occasional raid target that can't be nuked with normal spells, and while wizards do become a bit less futile on raids, they're still far from necessary and often enough out-performed by melee anyway.

Most of this boils down to that lapse in class design vs. content design, and of course the inexcusably bad caster itemization of early Everquest. A naked wizard does the same DPS as a raid-geared one, and while the latter can do it for longer, the mana pool dilemma comes into effect on anything but boss mobs where you always start at FM. Uptime was discussed in a previous post, and anyone who knows their shit knows that a large mana pool is worthless when you never get to reach FM, and is equally worthless if the content is so easy that you frequently do. It only matters in those situations where you get to fill that huge mana pool up before using it and can then use the whole thing. Without a way of doing this on demand like you can in modern games, it becomes almost entirely worthless, and thus caster itemization is broken.
I LOVE your comments here because they highlight something that I've said before and has fallen on deaf ears.

The interplay between class design vs content design. I played a ranger a lot on live. One thing that bothered me is that content seemed to get increasingly stale over time. Rather than rooting or snaring or tracking or invising or kiting or doing some of the other things my ranger could do, I ended up being reduced to a simple dealer of DPS. Maybe this has to do with the fact that I leveled up. The early levels involve a lot of rooting/snaring/kiting/etc and those things make the gameplay more interesting, but as you get higher you start to group a lot and most of the gameplay for rangers is simply DPS-oriented and, of course, monsters would summon and become hard to tank. This was not a fault so much of the class as it was the fault of the content. The content was just not there. There were too many creatures that could summon, the fights/deaths were too quick, the creatures hit too hard, everything seemed more predictable, and so on.

I think the game would have been better if there was no summoning and players had more hp or the creatures didn't hit as hard. There should be zones that have more chaos so groups need more hybrids/utility and then some zones that're more predictable and you don't need hybrids/utility as much. But it just seems that with time everything was chiseled away until combat encounters were just hack/slash; heal/tank/dps.

It might be that the game just ran out of money and they were unable to make diverse gameplay. So this is what led to the simplistic triangle-based content; heal/tank/dps. Rather than rogues disabling traps and sneaking past monsters to loot chests, they just stood behind and stabbed in the back. There was very little thought into developing content for classes. All in all, it seems that the developers decided it was cheaper to produce content for heal/tank/dps than it was to produce content for all the different classes. What happened is they reduced all the archetypes to just these 3, mostly. In the process, a lot was lost.

You can reduce all the classes to simplistic archetypes, but that's a slippery slope. They do it to save money and if the players eat it up then they continue to make it. It shouldn't be acceptable.

Why shouldn't it be acceptable? Because rangers aren't DPS, they're MUCH more than that. They're explorers. They're hunters. As explorers, they can respond with more abundance to the unexpected. DPS is a far cry to the expanse of the wilderness and the dark hollows of caves. Put most men in those places and they're go mad. Rangers are at home. Rogues are more than DPS too. They disable traps, they sneak and hide, they poison weapons, they stab people in the dark, they lock pick treasure boxes, they emanate charm to their unwary victims, they're as much about stealing and tricking as they're about killing. A lot of this detail is lost when you simplify it to a cut and dry system. That's what happened to everquest content over time.

That's how it felt to me, wrong or right. My ranger felt gutted.

Basically, classes are stupidly boring when content is mostly made for just heal/tank/dps. You see, in a wizard's case, it's not just the dps, it's the BURST-dps. The simplistic content wasn't prepared.

I remember reading something similar about Morrowind, an old Elder Scrolls SRPG. It had something to do with classes wanting unique content but it not being there or something. I can't recall the details. I know a lot of games are guilty of relying too much on heal/tank/dps. There needs to be content that's more diverse. A way to solve it with just casters or just melee or just hybrids or something similar. For example, a man of the sword will slay his enemy to get his jewels, whereas, a rogue will sneak into his home and steal his jewels without touching him. A wise man might simply con him into giving away his jewels without a fight. A criminal man might extort him. There needs to be more paths that lead to success, not just one or two or three.

I think camping also partly ruined it. Players would settle into a single camp and stay there for days and weeks, grinding it to dust. Everything was a science. Rogues didn't need to lock-pick. Rangers didn't need to track. Chanters didn't need to mez. Druids didn't need to succor. Nobody needed to root. Etc. Players themselves, with the support of developers, paved the road to a game that became much more boring.

I think they should have put locked treasure boxes in the dungeons for player and trapped some of them. In all my time in EQ, I only ever saw rogues lock pick in LDON, if ever. I think maybe once. Then there was ONE other time that I shrouded to a goblin rogue so I could unlock a door in a kunark zone. There was no excuse for that. It was plain laziness. It also seemed that there were not enough dungeons and zones with 3d twists and turns. It just seemed to be one flat area with simplistic pathing and etc. Very boring.

Modern MMORPGs, like WoW or EQ2 or DDO (somewhat modern) or etc, they've improved somewhat on some of this. In fact, I've been very impressed at times. Too bad EQ only ever got a passing glance at it. But I'll admit that the maps and radars and (!!) icons and cartoony gfx and too much hand-holding does not appeal to me nearly as much as the other things they've done. In that sense, I still like classic EQ.

Sorry that I wrote so much. A big wall of text can easily ruin what's at the heart of a message. I'll lose a lot of people. Maybe I even lost a bit of myself in all that sh**. But I know that there's something to it. I didn't make this post mindlessly. These issues have crossed my mind for years and years. It's hard to pack all of that into a single post without error and with absolute completeness. Actually, it's impossible.

[Scavrefamn]

Enchanter with charmed pet > all DPS classes!!!

BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH !

I have my personal code and you have yours.

If you're fighting in a place where SoW is awesome then maybe you should group with someone who has it. If you find faster mana regeneration and attack speed to be awesome then maybe you should group with an Enchanter.


THIS.

[Tecmos Deception]

Yeah, yeah, I'm a thread necro. Have been wanting to/thinking about making a wizard to give me a relatively rare class that is relatively desirable in raids but is less group-dependent than a melee, and I found this thread.

The quote below is great:

I LOVE your comments here because they highlight something that I've said before and has fallen on deaf ears.

The interplay between class design vs content design. I played a ranger a lot on live. One thing that bothered me is that content seemed to get increasingly stale over time. Rather than rooting or snaring or tracking or invising or kiting or doing some of the other things my ranger could do, I ended up being reduced to a simple dealer of DPS. Maybe this has to do with the fact that I leveled up. The early levels involve a lot of rooting/snaring/kiting/etc and those things make the gameplay more interesting, but as you get higher you start to group a lot and most of the gameplay for rangers is simply DPS-oriented and, of course, monsters would summon and become hard to tank. This was not a fault so much of the class as it was the fault of the content. The content was just not there. There were too many creatures that could summon, the fights/deaths were too quick, the creatures hit too hard, everything seemed more predictable, and so on.

I think the game would have been better if there was no summoning and players had more hp or the creatures didn't hit as hard. There should be zones that have more chaos so groups need more hybrids/utility and then some zones that're more predictable and you don't need hybrids/utility as much. But it just seems that with time everything was chiseled away until combat encounters were just hack/slash; heal/tank/dps.

It might be that the game just ran out of money and they were unable to make diverse gameplay. So this is what led to the simplistic triangle-based content; heal/tank/dps. Rather than rogues disabling traps and sneaking past monsters to loot chests, they just stood behind and stabbed in the back. There was very little thought into developing content for classes. All in all, it seems that the developers decided it was cheaper to produce content for heal/tank/dps than it was to produce content for all the different classes. What happened is they reduced all the archetypes to just these 3, mostly. In the process, a lot was lost.

You can reduce all the classes to simplistic archetypes, but that's a slippery slope. They do it to save money and if the players eat it up then they continue to make it. It shouldn't be acceptable.

Why shouldn't it be acceptable? Because rangers aren't DPS, they're MUCH more than that. They're explorers. They're hunters. As explorers, they can respond with more abundance to the unexpected. DPS is a far cry to the expanse of the wilderness and the dark hollows of caves. Put most men in those places and they're go mad. Rangers are at home. Rogues are more than DPS too. They disable traps, they sneak and hide, they poison weapons, they stab people in the dark, they lock pick treasure boxes, they emanate charm to their unwary victims, they're as much about stealing and tricking as they're about killing. A lot of this detail is lost when you simplify it to a cut and dry system. That's what happened to everquest content over time.

That's how it felt to me, wrong or right. My ranger felt gutted.

Basically, classes are stupidly boring when content is mostly made for just heal/tank/dps. You see, in a wizard's case, it's not just the dps, it's the BURST-dps. The simplistic content wasn't prepared.

I remember reading something similar about Morrowind, an old Elder Scrolls SRPG. It had something to do with classes wanting unique content but it not being there or something. I can't recall the details. I know a lot of games are guilty of relying too much on heal/tank/dps. There needs to be content that's more diverse. A way to solve it with just casters or just melee or just hybrids or something similar. For example, a man of the sword will slay his enemy to get his jewels, whereas, a rogue will sneak into his home and steal his jewels without touching him. A wise man might simply con him into giving away his jewels without a fight. A criminal man might extort him. There needs to be more paths that lead to success, not just one or two or three.

I think camping also partly ruined it. Players would settle into a single camp and stay there for days and weeks, grinding it to dust. Everything was a science. Rogues didn't need to lock-pick. Rangers didn't need to track. Chanters didn't need to mez. Druids didn't need to succor. Nobody needed to root. Etc. Players themselves, with the support of developers, paved the road to a game that became much more boring.

I think they should have put locked treasure boxes in the dungeons for player and trapped some of them. In all my time in EQ, I only ever saw rogues lock pick in LDON, if ever. I think maybe once. Then there was ONE other time that I shrouded to a goblin rogue so I could unlock a door in a kunark zone. There was no excuse for that. It was plain laziness. It also seemed that there were not enough dungeons and zones with 3d twists and turns. It just seemed to be one flat area with simplistic pathing and etc. Very boring.

Modern MMORPGs, like WoW or EQ2 or DDO (somewhat modern) or etc, they've improved somewhat on some of this. In fact, I've been very impressed at times. Too bad EQ only ever got a passing glance at it. But I'll admit that the maps and radars and (!!) icons and cartoony gfx and too much hand-holding does not appeal to me nearly as much as the other things they've done. In that sense, I still like classic EQ.

Sorry that I wrote so much. A big wall of text can easily ruin what's at the heart of a message. I'll lose a lot of people. Maybe I even lost a bit of myself in all that sh**. But I know that there's something to it. I didn't make this post mindlessly. These issues have crossed my mind for years and years. It's hard to pack all of that into a single post without error and with absolute completeness. Actually, it's impossible.


Just too bad that 95% of modern MMOs (or even just plain RPGs) still aren't close to "getting it right."

DDO is the closest I've ever seen to an MMO that made something other than tanking or healing or DPSing important. Well no, I guess CoH put pretty big emphasis on there being a 4th tier to the normal trinity... the buff/debuff/CC role that was also present in EQ. But DDO was the only MMO I've seen that gave rogues something to do that was rogue-y. But even DDO didn't take it far enough, imo. From what I recall, there were still far more missions where killing was the only way to succeed, where stealth was broken by some boss script 100% of the time; and the extra rewards in missions still far favored hacking and slashing and breaking barrels to any other approach.

There's nothing more insulting to someone who grew up playing tabletop RPGs and games like Thief and stuff than to make a class called "rogue" who is actually nothing more than a lightly armored warrior who prefers to attack from behind.

Oh well.

[Atmas]

Well the thing about your tabletop games is they were only limited by your imagination, programmed games have resource constraints. I don't think EQ did a horrid job with Rogues being able to hide and sneak, pick locks, pick pockets, disarm traps, and use oppurtunity attacks (backstab).

[Asher]

I recently got my wizard high enough to start quadding and can really see a huge difference in the amount of resists from live to p99.

The odds of landing snare or an AE DD (Max damage) on all 4 targets is much much lower.

This combined with the enormous hit box that lets mobs attack me with a 50' reach is extremely annoying but I still love my wizard.

Asher

[Wudan]

I played a wizard from day one March '99 until '04. I also rolled a warrior from Kunark to '04, and boxed them both everywhere

what a horrible choice for boxing. probably the worst i have ever heard of

[Nirgon]

Lol @ the "raiding plane of mischief" comments / scary plane of growth mobs.

Oh brudda. Good necro.

Wizards are boss, that is all.

[Messianic]

I recently got my wizard high enough to start quadding and can really see a huge difference in the amount of resists from live to p99.

The odds of landing snare or an AE DD (Max damage) on all 4 targets is much much lower.

This combined with the enormous hit box that lets mobs attack me with a 50' reach is extremely annoying but I still love my wizard.

Asher

What are you quadding and what level are you? I got resists maybe 4-5 times a level, even in my 40s and 50s...

[Asher]

What are you quadding and what level are you? I got resists maybe 4-5 times a level, even in my 40s and 50s...

I am lvl 41 quadding snarlers and growlers in FV. I tried TD at Spirocs at 40 but with only lightfoots I could only land snare on 2 out of 4 mobs on average per cast.

Asher

[mwatt]

Someone said:
"I think camping also partly ruined it. Players would settle into a single camp and stay there for days and weeks, grinding it to dust. Everything was a science. Rogues didn't need to lock-pick. Rangers didn't need to track. Chanters didn't need to mez. Druids didn't need to succor. Nobody needed to root. Etc. Players themselves, with the support of developers, paved the road to a game that became much more boring."

This is a derail vs the original post but I have seen this idea posted before and I just can't let it go by. "Camping" is the secondary effect of introducing itemization into the game that is not cookie cutter or easily obtained. WoW "fixed" camping by making named mobs that drop signficantly desirable equipment rare to non-existent. Instead, you do some quest like everybody else and obtain an item that is essentially a clone of a handful of other items. Despite the fact that camping can get evil, I found the EQ system to be far more compelling than the WoW system. WoW sucked some of the fun out of gameworld by virtually eliminating camping.

[Splorf22]

Oh, personally I have a different view of camping. My problem with fixed-time respawns is that they trivialize the content because after you 'break' a camp you can fight the monsters one by one and its much, much easier. Suppose for example that every 30 minutes the zone 'reset', all dead mobs respawned, and all players were teleported to the zone in. I think this version of EQ would be much, much more challenging.

[Kimm Barely]

http://i.imgur.com/xaHMM.png

[Kevlar]

Someone said:
"I think camping also partly ruined it. Players would settle into a single camp and stay there for days and weeks, grinding it to dust. Everything was a science. Rogues didn't need to lock-pick. Rangers didn't need to track. Chanters didn't need to mez. Druids didn't need to succor. Nobody needed to root. Etc. Players themselves, with the support of developers, paved the road to a game that became much more boring."

This is a derail vs the original post but I have seen this idea posted before and I just can't let it go by. "Camping" is the secondary effect of introducing itemization into the game that is not cookie cutter or easily obtained. WoW "fixed" camping by making named mobs that drop signficantly desirable equipment rare to non-existent. Instead, you do some quest like everybody else and obtain an item that is essentially a clone of a handful of other items. Despite the fact that camping can get evil, I found the EQ system to be far more compelling than the WoW system. WoW sucked some of the fun out of gameworld by virtually eliminating camping.

Yep, that is one of the worst parts of modern game design. Generic itemization. I hate it. Its so korean. In EQ even crappy low level gear like shiny brass shield or polished granite tomahawk meant something. And everyone who saw it knew about it, stuff of legends. Not so with shiny axe_01.

[Galelor]

I LOVE your comments here because they highlight something that I've said before and has fallen on deaf ears.

The interplay between class design vs content design. I played a ranger a lot on live. One thing that bothered me is that content seemed to get increasingly stale over time. Rather than rooting or snaring or tracking or invising or kiting or doing some of the other things my ranger could do, I ended up being reduced to a simple dealer of DPS. Maybe this has to do with the fact that I leveled up. The early levels involve a lot of rooting/snaring/kiting/etc and those things make the gameplay more interesting, but as you get higher you start to group a lot and most of the gameplay for rangers is simply DPS-oriented and, of course, monsters would summon and become hard to tank. This was not a fault so much of the class as it was the fault of the content. The content was just not there. There were too many creatures that could summon, the fights/deaths were too quick, the creatures hit too hard, everything seemed more predictable, and so on.

I think the game would have been better if there was no summoning and players had more hp or the creatures didn't hit as hard. There should be zones that have more chaos so groups need more hybrids/utility and then some zones that're more predictable and you don't need hybrids/utility as much. But it just seems that with time everything was chiseled away until combat encounters were just hack/slash; heal/tank/dps.

It might be that the game just ran out of money and they were unable to make diverse gameplay. So this is what led to the simplistic triangle-based content; heal/tank/dps. Rather than rogues disabling traps and sneaking past monsters to loot chests, they just stood behind and stabbed in the back. There was very little thought into developing content for classes. All in all, it seems that the developers decided it was cheaper to produce content for heal/tank/dps than it was to produce content for all the different classes. What happened is they reduced all the archetypes to just these 3, mostly. In the process, a lot was lost.

You can reduce all the classes to simplistic archetypes, but that's a slippery slope. They do it to save money and if the players eat it up then they continue to make it. It shouldn't be acceptable.

Why shouldn't it be acceptable? Because rangers aren't DPS, they're MUCH more than that. They're explorers. They're hunters. As explorers, they can respond with more abundance to the unexpected. DPS is a far cry to the expanse of the wilderness and the dark hollows of caves. Put most men in those places and they're go mad. Rangers are at home. Rogues are more than DPS too. They disable traps, they sneak and hide, they poison weapons, they stab people in the dark, they lock pick treasure boxes, they emanate charm to their unwary victims, they're as much about stealing and tricking as they're about killing. A lot of this detail is lost when you simplify it to a cut and dry system. That's what happened to everquest content over time.

That's how it felt to me, wrong or right. My ranger felt gutted.

Basically, classes are stupidly boring when content is mostly made for just heal/tank/dps. You see, in a wizard's case, it's not just the dps, it's the BURST-dps. The simplistic content wasn't prepared.

I remember reading something similar about Morrowind, an old Elder Scrolls SRPG. It had something to do with classes wanting unique content but it not being there or something. I can't recall the details. I know a lot of games are guilty of relying too much on heal/tank/dps. There needs to be content that's more diverse. A way to solve it with just casters or just melee or just hybrids or something similar. For example, a man of the sword will slay his enemy to get his jewels, whereas, a rogue will sneak into his home and steal his jewels without touching him. A wise man might simply con him into giving away his jewels without a fight. A criminal man might extort him. There needs to be more paths that lead to success, not just one or two or three.

I think camping also partly ruined it. Players would settle into a single camp and stay there for days and weeks, grinding it to dust. Everything was a science. Rogues didn't need to lock-pick. Rangers didn't need to track. Chanters didn't need to mez. Druids didn't need to succor. Nobody needed to root. Etc. Players themselves, with the support of developers, paved the road to a game that became much more boring.

I think they should have put locked treasure boxes in the dungeons for player and trapped some of them. In all my time in EQ, I only ever saw rogues lock pick in LDON, if ever. I think maybe once. Then there was ONE other time that I shrouded to a goblin rogue so I could unlock a door in a kunark zone. There was no excuse for that. It was plain laziness. It also seemed that there were not enough dungeons and zones with 3d twists and turns. It just seemed to be one flat area with simplistic pathing and etc. Very boring.

Modern MMORPGs, like WoW or EQ2 or DDO (somewhat modern) or etc, they've improved somewhat on some of this. In fact, I've been very impressed at times. Too bad EQ only ever got a passing glance at it. But I'll admit that the maps and radars and (!!) icons and cartoony gfx and too much hand-holding does not appeal to me nearly as much as the other things they've done. In that sense, I still like classic EQ.

Sorry that I wrote so much. A big wall of text can easily ruin what's at the heart of a message. I'll lose a lot of people. Maybe I even lost a bit of myself in all that sh**. But I know that there's something to it. I didn't make this post mindlessly. These issues have crossed my mind for years and years. It's hard to pack all of that into a single post without error and with absolute completeness. Actually, it's impossible.

A little derail here, but I think you are totally wrong about Rangers. I played EQ for 8-9ish years with some good friends being rangers, and I found rangers to be much more viable as DPS, tanks, kiters, and patch healers after the introduction of AA and into further expansions. GoD was a horrible expansion for all hybrid type classes, but other than that things were not nearly as bad as you write. Clearly in later expansions rangers needed some raid gear to do exceptionally well, but after x amount of expansions so did all classes... (I am not even talking about current expansion raid gear...) With the introduction of augs and GM gear, raid gear was really not a requirement. Honestly, I think you should roll a mid to high level ranger on EQ test and fart around. Your opinion will likely change.

I also disagree that EQ is the same old tank/heal/dps. Some of it was, but clearly you never raided past the early expansions. The early expansions generally required no more than zerg tactics to win (or simple hide from AE.) I would argue that after a the first 4 or 5 expansions, EQ was kept afloat by raiders as the casuals started moving to other games. These raiders stayed due to the diversity of encounter strategies. IMO this type of non-zerg mentality started with Luclin, but was put into much better practice during PoP and the later expansion instanced encounters. (Yes, I know that there were expansions like LDoN that were meant for single group content, but far and away most later expansions were implemented for those of us who raided. Good or bad...)

[Arclanz]

Wizards are great for groups that like to adventure; because you never know when you might need to burn down a healer mob or evac or scout invis. However, if you spend all your time doing the mindless grind with encounters you have done a hundred times before, then I guess a wizard seems less attractive.