Velious on red 2.0

[Gustoo]

The poll is for No velious on red 2.0, or Yes velious on red 2.0

But more importantly, please discuss why velious sucks for PVP. (or not)

How does it play out to end competition at the higher levels? I used to see people complain about it because a velious raiding guild had full sets of good quality no drop, while someone crawling out of kunark had a lot of droppable gear and made it risky / difficult to compete on rallos zek item loot rules. But here it fell apart despite no item loot.

From my perspective I was a huge fan of the velious PVP era on rallos zek because of all the awesome droppable items for twinks. Veno axe, bio orb, wrapped entropy serpent spine. I loved these things.

But at that time I didn't see or care about what was going on at level 60, and on rallos there was pretty much a small PK guild and three big anti PK raiding guilds so I don't think it was much of a problem.

How does it suck? What happens? One guild kills a few dragons and its impossible for scrappy guilds to gear up to compete?

Sadly by the time velious rolled around on red server, there was no one under level 50 to blind whip and blind click and 80dd proc on. I'm not sure if that was because of the other problems red 1.0 had or because the playerbase (which are mostly people wanting to play at level 60 it seems) didn't enjoy velious pvp.

Thanks.

[Tunabros]

hate to break it to you

but no one cares

[Gustoo]

^ doesn't care, posts in every thread.

Thanks for keeping the red forum a little more active.

[Tunabros]

np bro

be glad I pity you enough to post here

[Tassador]

Tuna guy is actually right nobody cares and quite frankly not reading anything you write over 2 sentences cause you boring asf bro.

Tuna guy has 3 word comebacks and people get pissed at him. He knows how to work you’re fucking jobber bro.

[Tunabros]

Tuna guy is actually right nobody cares and quite frankly not reading anything you write over 2 sentences cause you boring asf bro.

Tuna guy has 3 word comebacks and people get pissed at him. He knows how to work you’re fucking jobber bro.

you balls are so big <3

[starkind]

velious pvp is boring and just induces bad behavior and wierd obssession with the games +100 hp +15 resist items which add nothing to the game except they thought velious was the last expansion until a new company bought it and made luclin

Tuna guy is actually right nobody cares and quite frankly not reading anything you write over 2 sentences cause you boring asf bro.

Tuna guy has 3 word comebacks and people get pissed at him. He knows how to work you’re fucking jobber bro.

no one i know is mad at tuna lol i tell them not to poke fun at him cuz i honestly think tuna is pretty vulnerable

anyway tuna may say mean things, just stay the corse and be nice/don't react negatively, he can be rehabilitated into elfdom

[Tunabros]

starkind has a crush on me but doesnt want to admit

unfortunately, he's mentally ill and insane

[starkind]

i have no idea and ur avatar is wierd, so may i plz respond and say no? i just hate to see misery on the forums i want happiness for everyone

[Tunabros]

no

hahahaha!

[Tune]

said no

velious too big

gear gap too big

make server smaller for smaller pop

wallmart gear can compete in pvp vs vp geared folks

makes it more fun

also velious makes the game way more time consuming

im pretty sure most of us don't want that

[Gustoo]

Tune thanks for weighing in.

how long does it take for gear gap to get too big? how does it actually happen? If there are so many velious +15 all stats + 100 mana / HP items why can't walmart guilds get it? Does it require too many people?

Never raided velious only fear kited cougars and mammoths as a trash can ranger in era.

[Imago]

Tune thanks for weighing in.

how long does it take for gear gap to get too big? how does it actually happen? If there are so many velious +15 all stats + 100 mana / HP items why can't walmart guilds get it? Does it require too many people?

Never raided velious only fear kited cougars and mammoths as a trash can ranger in era.

Basically anyone that raids in Velious has insurmountably better resists and more HP than everyone else. Classic and Kunark raid gear was rather restrained in total stat expenditure per item, so a fully raid geared toon in Kunark, unbuffed, had only 20-30% more HP than a group geared toon. Lack of extraordinary stat distribution on items also meant starting race was a more meaningful decision.

Just look at some of the Apex or Empire Red Magelo pages. Velious characters had obnoxiously high stats, HP and resists. Impossible to compete with if you aren't clearing the same content, and that content was easily locked down so that "walmart guilds" never even got a crack at it.

The only thing in Kunark that gave anywhere near that kind of power in one item was an epic. And isn't that kind of fitting?

[TercerRigo]

Just wanted to say that I mainly lurk, because I'd rather play or code than argue, and Gustoo's posts are a large reason why I do so.

I believe in your dream of Red 2.0 Gustoo, and will wait patiently to share in it.

[Tradesonred]

But at that time I didn't see or care about what was going on at level 60, and on rallos there was pretty much a small PK guild and three big anti PK raiding guilds so I don't think it was much of a problem.


Where the fuck did you guys play, like seriously? Did i play on Rallos in an alternate universe?

Thats the second person here claiming to have played on Rallos saying pvp was scarce. You could literally not level most of the times because youd get attacked by PKs and i liked it. I would smoke weed, sit down and expect this shit. Its why i played.

Like there was quite a bit of pk players, to the point where i didnt have to decide if i wanted to be anti or PK on the basis that "i like to pvp" so playing anti sorts of gimps my ability to pvp because i cant attack everyone. There was so many PK guilds that even if you played anti, there was loads of people to KOS because of their guild tags.

Artful death
Flowers of happiness
Black claws
inimical
malicious intent

Just off the top of my head, 20 years later. I made it only to 44 in 1.5 years before quitting because i just had fun smelling the pvp flowers on the way.

[starkind]

the fun thing about velious geared ppl would be to log in like 12 friends and take them down

now thats kinda not allowed and lns... and those ppl who are velious geared just /plug or log in to raid only or log in their stable of alts to troll newbz

i agree vanilla needs more loot and more dungeons - not scaling to planar lvl th, more like in the 30's and slower exp

[Gustoo]

That comment was specifically made about the velious raiding situation. I don't think velious had an impact because the vast majority of level 60 people with raid aspirations were anti PK's and sorted out their difficulties without pvp so they could all benefit. The PK's probably hated it but they were small pop at that level.

PVP was constant at all levels under 60 though. I leveled in the most backwoods nomansland places ever for the one character I leveled, and he only made it to level 46. I also just PVPed (but on other characters).

Thats why for me, velious was the best expansion ever because it added so many awesome droppable game changing items like the ones I mentioned.

Luclin ruined the game by making the trading area not also a PVP area, and added no similar items to enhance the PVP experience.

The anti pk/pk dynamic was real and awesome.

[Tradesonred]

That comment was specifically made about the velious raiding situation. I don't remember anyone saying "man velious broke eq PVP!" on rallos zek, and I believe it was because the level 60 population was 95% in 3x quality raiding guilds and 5% PK guys trying to mess them up.

PVP threat was constant at all times for me also. I leveled in super obscure areas on the one character I actually leveled up and like you he only made it to level 46 he is probably sitting at the cougars in velious right now and his next step was mammoths in GD but they were pretty tough so I went back. I mostly did PVP at low levels, because it was what I enjoyed doing. Thats why I mentioned velious being the best times ever because the new strategies those hax items that had no level requirement opened up.

Ahh ok i see. I mean i questioned tune having played on Rallos at all when i saw him say pvp was not happening on Rallos. I remember our guild leader taking us to that goblin place near misty i think that got xp nerfed recently here because it was out of the way and could get some levels without getting attacked every 20 minutes.

[Gustoo]

Yeah I leveled on the sirens in ocean of tears on my ranger until they were giving basically no EXP to avoid getting murdered. I never had an appetite for long exp grinding so seldom grouped up and dealt with managing a group and getting destroyed by PVP and stuff, I found it most expedient to solo during my own time in junk places. Even with that, I wore full banded + hp rings and wolf bracers and like black iron crown and dwarven ringmail tunic all the way to 46 since those items were like 20pp to replace if I got murdered while leveling and you really don't need gear to PVE.

yeah dude the pvp was all over it was the best.

[starkind]

Yeah I leveled on the sirens in ocean of tears on my ranger until they were giving basically no EXP to avoid getting murdered. I never had an appetite for long exp grinding so seldom grouped up and dealt with managing a group and getting destroyed by PVP and stuff, I found it most expedient to solo during my own time in junk places. Even with that, I wore full banded + hp rings and wolf bracers and like black iron crown and dwarven ringmail tunic all the way to 46 since those items were like 20pp to replace if I got murdered while leveling and you really don't need gear to PVE.

yeah dude the pvp was all over it was the best.

ya same

[Old_PVP]

PVP happened at ALL levels... especially high end at 60. There were several long time grudges / guild wars happening all throughout RZ's history. There was basically one sect of top end guilds vs. another sect of top end guilds. Just off the top of my head it looked something like this:

Peace of Formosa, Hidden Power, Facultas Utrimque, The Peacebreakers, Force of Will

vs.

Ascending Dawn, Magus Imperialis Magicus, The Begotten, Wudan, Insanity's Edge, Ordo Malleus

Top end was very political and guilds would merge / change names but it was always KOS to the same people and the feuds lasted years.

Random PK guilds like Darkenbane, Lucid Vision, Flowers of Happiness, The Curse... etc. were no more than a nuisance to the raid guilds, and mainly affected mid to low level content.

But make no mistake... there were some vicious PVP battles at all levels, especially high end.

[Old_PVP]

Have a look-see at this site. That'll bring back some memories.

https://ralloszek.stephans.org/

[Gustoo]

I remember AD, MIM and Wudan being on top and pretty much allies. I assume the guilds on the top were also anti guilds but in a feud with the others?

Cool to hear Old PVP. Like I was saying I had zero and still have little experience with PVP at level 60 I just had a couple friends in those guilds.

Do you have any insights on how velious impacted pvp at level 60, and if it was bad or good on rallos?

Or why people here seem to hate it so much?

[Gustoo]

Have a look-see at this site. That'll bring back some memories.

https://ralloszek.stephans.org/

holy crap I think I found the ONLY reference to any of my rather insignificant rallos zek characters ever on that site, wow! Last Seen in Norrath 2004-02-07 23:04:49 RIP

I can see in the logs that one of my guys went from 17 to 31 in about 3 months on a character in 2002. Man.

[A Knight]

Voted No.

Mostly out of the opinion of others. I love Kunark as is, anyway.

I wonder how EQ would have played out, if the EQ purest had their way the whole time. 5 plus expansion in, it would be a bit much for most items to be droppable, but I would still enjoy it as a mod, for something different. Imbued shin greaves.

I wanted to try Vanilla on Green to see what pure classic was like, but that's when everything got crazy.

[Old_PVP]

I remember AD, MIM and Wudan being on top and pretty much allies. I assume the guilds on the top were also anti guilds but in a feud with the others?

Cool to hear Old PVP. Like I was saying I had zero and still have little experience with PVP at level 60 I just had a couple friends in those guilds.

Do you have any insights on how velious impacted pvp at level 60, and if it was bad or good on rallos?

Or why people here seem to hate it so much?

I had a fun time in Velious, don't get me wrong... there was lots of PVP to be had in that expansion. Earlier PVP was more memorable though. Velious goes wrong in many ways.

Tune mentioned some of it already.


Velious is too big, thus making the world way too big, meaning fewer PVP encounters.
Gear in general, but mainly Raid gear becomes extremely powerful leading to massive gear gaps between the casual and hardcore player. Just take a look at gear from Classic / Kunark. Most times you had to either choose, stats or resists. Velious ends all that with raid gear that has chunks of everything on one piece.
This itemization leads to melees being king. Casters have an increasingly harder time going after people with hundreds of resists AND massive HP/stat gear. Melees have endless amounts of white damage.
Velious in general is mainly catered to the hardcore raider...thus leaving out the casual / low level playerbase.
It also turns into a massive faction grind raid snooze fest.

[Disease]

I had a fun time in Velious, don't get me wrong... there was lots of PVP to be had in that expansion. Earlier PVP was more memorable though. Velious goes wrong in many ways.

Tune mentioned some of it already.


Velious is too big, thus making the world way too big, meaning fewer PVP encounters.
Gear in general, but mainly Raid gear becomes extremely powerful leading to massive gear gaps between the casual and hardcore player. Just take a look at gear from Classic / Kunark. Most times you had to either choose, stats or resists. Velious ends all that with raid gear that has chunks of everything on one piece.
This itemization leads to melees being king. Casters have an increasingly harder time going after people with hundreds of resists AND massive HP/stat gear. Melees have endless amounts of white damage.
Velious in general is mainly catered to the hardcore raider...thus leaving out the casual / low level playerbase.
It also turns into a massive faction grind raid snooze fest.


One way to help gear gaps is instances. This way smaller guilds aren't competing with zergs throwing stables at smaller guilds.

I would instance tov and that's it. Just do a 5-7 day lock out

[A Knight]

I'm not completely against instances.

I would imagine, instances could take away from the feel of the world. Making it just Roomquest, traveling from room to room. But I would be willing to gamble 50% that it might not as bad. If done wrong, yes completely garbage.

I just think instances need to have a chance, for someone to join from without the instance. This way they aren't pvp safe havens. Within 10 instances going on in Crushbone, a PK has a 35 percent chance to enter one of them.

And make incentives for people to not want to instance. Real world camps plus 1.5 times plat. Instances plus to cheaper item drops.

[Gustoo]

I guess I'm not completely against them either but I haven't heard of a good way to do it.

Imagine velious pvp with everyone instancing tov raids? Seems like we'd be better off not going to velious.

[Tunabros]

have fun discussing your fantasy red server (lol!)

[A Knight]

I guess I'm not completely against them either but I haven't heard of a good way to do it.

It would be hard to implement instances. But I'm afraid it's either add instances, to make the next best game, or just convince the whole world, that their Mmorpg religion is wrong, and ours is right.

Both are fine, one just might take longer.

[Imago]

i agree vanilla needs more loot and more dungeons - not scaling to planar lvl th, more like in the 30's and slower exp

I disagree. You and everyone else knows where the loot is and how to get it. Are you willing to do what it takes to get it?

Think Crushbone. DRT and Dragoon Dirk are fantastic items. Are you willing to get a group to lock down the castle and 1) PvE the orcs as they respawn, and 2) PvP the nerds that also want those items? How do you make the most of your position?

That's some epic pre-20 gameplay waiting to happen.

[Disease]

I guess I'm not completely against them either but I haven't heard of a good way to do it.

Imagine velious pvp with everyone instancing tov raids? Seems like we'd be better off not going to velious.

If we had the pop to support 2 raiding guilds for tov, I agree no instance tov. But with 1 zerg and the rest smaller guilds. Better to have each guild instance 1 time a week, get there gear and go pvp.

The velious gear gap is too big. If any 20 man guild can do tov freely, you would see much smaller guilds and more pvp

[Tune]

Where the fuck did you guys play, like seriously? Did i play on Rallos in an alternate universe?

Artful death
Flowers of happiness
Black claws
inimical
malicious intent



don't remember those too well, and I don't think those were pk guilds. def not black claws i was in them for a bit and got yelled at / booted for attacking some on on my ranger (who remembered it 3 years later)

just goes to show how blue the server was

PVP happened at ALL levels... especially high end at 60. There were several long time grudges / guild wars happening all throughout RZ's history. There was basically one sect of top end guilds vs. another sect of top end guilds. Just off the top of my head it looked something like this:

Peace of Formosa, Hidden Power, Facultas Utrimque, The Peacebreakers, Force of Will

vs.

Ascending Dawn, Magus Imperialis Magicus, The Begotten, Wudan, Insanity's Edge, Ordo Malleus

Top end was very political and guilds would merge / change names but it was always KOS to the same people and the feuds lasted years.

Random PK guilds like Darkenbane, Lucid Vision, Flowers of Happiness, The Curse... etc. were no more than a nuisance to the raid guilds, and mainly affected mid to low level content.

But make no mistake... there were some vicious PVP battles at all levels, especially high end.

lucid vision didn't come till late... I think they were the curse spin off? I just don't remember seeing them much

FoH heh cmon they were like the pvp joke guild who killed lvl 9s

Darkenbane was legendary, but ended early

Guild wars popped off at times i guess i just don't remember them that much

server was political , hand holding, alliances, rotations. shit they didn't wake the sleeper till POP

[Tradesonred]

Flowers were there at low levels, yea, but you could not spend a few hours in crushbone without running into them. I bought a solist icy wand at 3k just to make a level12 wiz to park there for fun. Crushbone was lowbie pvp central, just no way around that.

I mean i dont know what to say to you dont remember artful death and malicious intent. Artful Death's schtick was to say in shout or OOC that they were gonna do a few paintings/sketches in the zone. I ended up playing Darkfall with them. Definately PKs and youd know that if you played on Rallos. Id get attacked by black claws all the time in blackburrow. Malicious intent were less numerous than FoH but they were one of the tags id check for when i who'd coming into a zone.

I think its possible you played on rallos but probably tunnel vision'd to end game and not aware of what was going on at lower levels. But if i had to put money on it, id put it on you were probably around 5 when velious came out.

[Gustoo]

Tradesonred looks like you and I had similar lives. There was so much to do at low levels I never had any desire to grind out levels just to get to high end players with lots of no drop loot.

Do you remember Titaly and Winks?

Jooke and Jookes? (were not affiliated but both were level 10 rogue PKs)

[Tradesonred]

Tradesonred looks like you and I had similar lives. There was so much to do at low levels I never had any desire to grind out levels just to get to high end players with lots of no drop loot.

Do you remember Titaly and Winks?

Jooke and Jookes? (were not affiliated but both were level 10 rogue PKs)

Yes i remember jooke, him and a bard in Gfay were names i knew i had to watch for because i simply couldnt win against them. The only name i remember on the list.

Its 20 years ago, trying to remember other PKs but the only name that comes up was Castback i think he was in scary pirates. We were around the same level and i fought regularly with him as i leveled up so i remember him well. South K, highpass where places i remember fighting him. I wish there was a database somewhere where you could click on guild names and see roster history. I also remember grumpy gus the ranger who bind camped me for like 20minutes.

[Tradesonred]

I mean besides artful death. I remember Nnuk, Blazen and Someday from AD. Played Darkfall with Blazen and Nnuk. I bought my solist icy wand from Someday the mage which i used to fight in everfrost.

I also remember Morning Wood, a druid. I thought it was pretty funny and that it was a clever way to dodge getting name wrecked by a GM.

[Gustoo]

In kunark + the cool murderers wore rubicite bp's so they could loot ikky regen bp's from twinks which were usually the most valuable lootable item a person wore. FBSS always consolation prize.

Not a lot of lowbie PK's wore fungi's until later on when people started having deleveled rogues with epics. Jooke and stuff was during time when the 13/30 crystalline spear was about as awesome as you were gunna see on a low level pk.

[Old_PVP]

I wish there was a database somewhere where you could click on guild names and see roster history.

wtf, I literally posted this exact thing a couple pages back! :D

Take a gander:

https://ralloszek.stephans.org/

You can look up characters, guilds, see entire guild histories. It's a real treasure trove.

[Tradesonred]

wtf, I literally posted this exact thing a couple pages back! :D

Take a gander:

https://ralloszek.stephans.org/

You can look up characters, guilds, see entire guild histories. It's a real treasure trove.

Oh shit! I think i knew about that at some point but for some reason thought it was only guilds, ill post names in 30minutes i remember

[Tradesonred]

Castback was in malicious intent.

Names i remember fighting with:

Not a whole lot lol alot of these names look the same

And since i try not to be a bad faith person, ill admit tune was probably right about black claws. I was in black claws i guess lol? And i never played PK though i KOS'd anyone with a PK guild tag so I might have mixed their name with some other guild.

My name was Shezmaloo the erudite wizard. I played other chars before to get a feel for the game but that was the char i settled on to start the climb.

[New_Guy]

I gotta agree with the: "Nays".

While PvP was always pretty gear dependent, velious turned it too stupid. A full geared melee was almost immune to spells. While half the large guilds acted more like blues, locking down the dragons and increasing the gear vs skill divide.

[Duvain]

Kunark was the most fun IMO

[New_Guy]

Kunark was the most fun IMO

Kunark is the logical cutoff for a pvp server. Especially 20 years later when everyone knows how to get everything.

Velious makes melee's too strong.
Luclin makes caster's too strong.
PoP destroyed pvp with books.

Plus expanding the world makes it way too hard to find fights. It was hard finding people on Luclin during live when the world had 5k pop you want to expand the map to that size with 1/100th of the playerbase? cmon

[Tassador]

We need more zones and items to camp in order to have pvp duh!

[Gustoo]

2 years vanilla and 2 years kunark would be nice before dumping into red 1.0

Hard thing about having a cutoff on red 2.0 is that the red 2.0 guys getting dumped into 1.0 with full Kunark gear are gunna be raggety scrappers versus people pharming velious for the last decade so those toons might really be shelved indefinitely at that point, but I guess the fact that red is sitting at 30 pop indicates the level of care the EQ emu community has about their pvp toons at endvame velious.

[Chloroform]

i voted no to velious because the gear creates to much of an imbalance in power. Who ever gets the velious gear has to respect the power it wields but p99 nerds have no respect. so no to velious

[New_Guy]

We need more zones and items to camp in order to have pvp duh!

There was a ton of more fights pre velious, I don't have 18 hours to stalk someone across eastern wastes.