Persistent instaclick item use on Blue

[Solist]

Hi guys,

We went to all this trouble to remove all the big instaclicks in the past 2 years. This changed the game for a lot of people but mainly the following critical items were nerfed:

Initial Aggro Generation
Midnight Mallet (https://wiki.project1999.com/Midnight_Mallet) nerfed from 5 insta clicks of aggro to cast time. (now not used)
Midnight mallet use by players was replaced with Forlorn Totem (https://wiki.project1999.com/Forlorn_Totem_of_Rolfron_Zek) generally for a click, or sometimes 3-4 clicks while a ranger weaponshield tanks; and addition of farming Forlorn Scepters (https://wiki.project1999.com/Scepter_of_the_Forlorn) which are 10 insta clicks of aggro.

Mid fight snap aggro
Nets (https://wiki.project1999.com/Wooly_Spider_Silk_Net) were the dominant aggro click to throw at a mob mid fight. Forlorn Totem (https://wiki.project1999.com/Forlorn_Totem_of_Rolfron_Zek) have largely replaced nets, just generally a rogue dies in the process due to the cast time. Recharge cost of Forlorn Totem (https://wiki.project1999.com/Forlorn_Totem_of_Rolfron_Zek) is extremely cheap, unlike Nets (https://wiki.project1999.com/Wooly_Spider_Silk_Net).

Puppet Strings (https://wiki.project1999.com/Puppet_Strings)were nerfed to not be instant cast. This removed the huge snap aggro from warriors (and enjoyment of the game for a lot of clerics and enchanters, lol). These were directly replaced by weaponshield tanks; and addition of farming Forlorn Scepters (https://wiki.project1999.com/Scepter_of_the_Forlorn)

Utility Aggro
Prayers (https://wiki.project1999.com/Prayers_of_Life) were the utility aggro item of the server for sure, a bag of prayers on a warrior trivialised some encounters. Nothing has replaced them for healing, but the aggro is now just clicking a Scepters (https://wiki.project1999.com/Scepter_of_the_Forlorn)

Stoppers (https://wiki.project1999.com/Bladestopper) are largely useless now. More Mystic Cloak's (https://wiki.project1999.com/Mystic_Cloak) get farmed, but otherwise replaced by more Beards (https://wiki.project1999.com/Braided_Beard_of_the_Coldain) which now have a cast time, slightly annoying but when planned for is fine.

Instant CH's
The huge nerf to https://wiki.project1999.com/Soulfire just meant more people carry Reapers. (https://wiki.project1999.com/Reaper_of_the_Dead) An annoyance, but it's nice to see them nerfed as it was out of hand anyway. Now all raid guilds just have 2-5 paladin bots and a dozen https://wiki.project1999.com/Soulfire corpsed around the game.

Tag items
Nets (https://wiki.project1999.com/Wooly_Spider_Silk_Net) were the ubiquitous tag item of the last decade on blue. They just got replaced by Forlorn Totem (https://wiki.project1999.com/Forlorn_Totem_of_Rolfron_Zek) when there is space/time/line of sight, or Wands (https://wiki.project1999.com/Thin_Boned_Wand) which we've adapted to using, generally everyone uses wands to keep aggro low etc.

bolt wand (https://wiki.project1999.com/Wand_of_Frost_Bolts) same dealio, just gives more range than Wands (https://wiki.project1999.com/Thin_Boned_Wand) allowing you to get distance during projectile flight time.

What went wrong
The nerf of reapers (recharge cost), stoppers (recharge cost/cast time), soulfires (pal only), nets (recharge cost), prayers (cast time/recharge cost), strings (recharge cost), beards (recharge cost), mallets (recharge cost) all only achieved to move the community on to other items like Sceptres, wands, bolt wands, totems, paladin bots for soulfires. You guys really only changed half the items and didn't achieve anything in the process as gameplay was adapted around new item 'exploitation'.

Do it properly
I'm posting this as a bug as it was obvious the intent of the clicky nerf, and the bug is evident the nerf was not complete, or vast enough. The spirit of the game sort of demands this gets extended to cover all the other new items we now covet.

The nerf itself we have to live with, and for many of us at great personal cost (rip my strings, stopper, prayers etc). But the nerf was all for nothing if it is not complete.

If nothing changed in the raid scene with the clicky nerf (and except for 13man nexona, nothing changed as otherwise every encounter is the same) can we undo the clicky nerf. Or can we do it properly and address the below (and possibly more).

Suggestions
Add a CH delay/debuff to all instant CH items, the same CH that is on Donals BP post nerf (https://wiki.project1999.com/Donal%27s_Chestplate_of_Mourning). This turns the CH spell from a heal, to a heal+debuff blocking the use of further ch's of that type. Removing the ability to spam CH's with Donals BP (something I enjoyed to huge gain early kunark, it was very broken).

So add the donals BP effect to:
Reaper (https://wiki.project1999.com/Reaper_of_the_Dead)
SoulFire (https://wiki.project1999.com/SoulFire)
Cleric Neck (https://wiki.project1999.com/Necklace_of_Resolution)
So the spell cast is the debuff+heal, not the cleric spell CH.

Add cast times of 2sec +- to:
Forlorn Scepters (https://wiki.project1999.com/Scepter_of_the_Forlorn)
Frostbolt Wands (https://wiki.project1999.com/Wand_of_Frost_Bolts)
Wands (https://wiki.project1999.com/Thin_Boned_Wand)
Mystic Cloak's (https://wiki.project1999.com/Mystic_Cloak)

Add large recharge cost to:
Forlorn Totem (https://wiki.project1999.com/Forlorn_Totem_of_Rolfron_Zek)
Frostbolt Wands (https://wiki.project1999.com/Wand_of_Frost_Bolts)
Wands (https://wiki.project1999.com/Thin_Boned_Wand)


Anticipated changes needed:
Remove the ability to cast Flux Staff Click (https://wiki.project1999.com/Lower_Element) from raid zones like PoF/PoH/ToV/Kael, or remove the aggro component to this spell in those zones so Flux Staff (https://wiki.project1999.com/Staff_of_Temperate_Flux) isn't the outright cheese it currently is. The clicky nerf only made the flux staff more powerful, and the above suggestions only strengthen the flux staff further. (I have a wizard, I kite vulak guards...this change hurts me a lot). The coding to remove specific spells from use in zones exists already, so this can't be difficult without effecting all wizards everywhere. Examples of this are Kunark evac spells, CoTH in sky, Lev in The Hole, etc.

In Closing
There is probably more items not covered that will be dragged out from under some rock somewhere and used. Love to add those to the list without prohibitively effecting lower level gameplay.

I stress again that the clicky nerf has not changed the raid scene, which ostensibly was the target of the nerf given the items changed. The clicky nerf hurt soloers and groupers, solo artist content, etc. The raid scene we just move on and adapted, farmed different items, canged class comp etc.

So if we don't address the rest of the items the entire thing was for nothing and should be reversed. The clicky nerf in its current form is a bug for that reason. Let's fix it :)

[Croco]

Or maybe, and hear me out because this is a crazy idea, don't continue to change things in a non-classic way and accept that you can't put the toothpaste back in the tube. You can't force people to experience a game the same way it was experienced more than 20 years ago. We have faster internet, faster computers, and more knowledge of everything EQ related.

Remove the nerfs and revert everything to it's classic state.

[Lich]

I agree. Either remove the non classic nerfs or start adding back QoL improvements that were removed because not classic. Stuff like Dot damage showing, spell description and spell timers etc. Green could use custom UI and pet window etc.

[Gustoo]

I think it should be discussed until we are sick first (seriously) because the nerfs are a big deal.

You may also mention ivy hoops. This thread is basically a guide to elite uberness that in the past most normal mortal eq players would never learn about.

[Samoht]

Add cast times of 2sec +- to:
Forlorn Scepters (https://wiki.project1999.com/Scepter_of_the_Forlorn)
Frostbolt Wands (https://wiki.project1999.com/Wand_of_Frost_Bolts)
Wands (https://wiki.project1999.com/Thin_Boned_Wand)
Mystic Cloak's (https://wiki.project1999.com/Mystic_Cloak)

Add large recharge cost to:
Forlorn Totem (https://wiki.project1999.com/Forlorn_Totem_of_Rolfron_Zek)
Frostbolt Wands (https://wiki.project1999.com/Wand_of_Frost_Bolts)
Wands (https://wiki.project1999.com/Thin_Boned_Wand)

These changes need to be implemented ASAP.

You should also look at changing Larrikan's Mask (https://wiki.project1999.com/Larrikan%27s_Mask), Ring of Shadows (https://wiki.project1999.com/Ring_of_Shadows), and Earring of the Frozen Skull (https://wiki.project1999.com/Earring_of_the_Frozen_Skull) to increase the recharge cost there, as well.

Oh, and should Larrikan's Mask (https://wiki.project1999.com/Larrikan%27s_Mask) actually be able to be recharged in a Box of the Void (https://wiki.project1999.com/Box_of_the_Void) (PoSky quest item recharge box) or is that a bug?

[Solist]

Hooping trakanon down happenned once ever on the server. We used to carry maybe 10 total in the raid. But yes, that one occasion destroyed necromancers and SK's for the rest of the server's duration from 2012 onwards. Amazing.

[Croco]

These changes need to be implemented ASAP.

You should also look at changing Larrikan's Mask (https://wiki.project1999.com/Larrikan%27s_Mask), Ring of Shadows (https://wiki.project1999.com/Ring_of_Shadows), and Earring of the Frozen Skull (https://wiki.project1999.com/Earring_of_the_Frozen_Skull) to increase the recharge cost there, as well.

Oh, and should Larrikan's Mask (https://wiki.project1999.com/Larrikan%27s_Mask) actually be able to be recharged in a Box of the Void (https://wiki.project1999.com/Box_of_the_Void) (PoSky quest item recharge box) or is that a bug?

If you cast identify on the larry mask it says "class 3", seems intended/classic.

[Solist]

Larrikens mask and invis rings are trivial nonsense.

They dont trivialise content.

[Samoht]

Larrikens mask and invis rings are trivial nonsense.

They dont trivialise content.

I'll have to disagree with you there. They give classes that would otherwise not be able to invis an infinite amount of charges of invisibility.

Ring of Shadows is instant cast, so it's extra OP, even for classes that already have invis.

They definitely need the same treatment.

[Keebz]

One nit, Paladin 'bots' for Soulfires don't seem egregious to me. I think Reapers should get the same treatment, imho--make them SHD only. This nerfs the cheeziness, and makes Knights feel special again. Win-win imho.

Hooping trakanon down happenned once ever on the server. We used to carry maybe 10 total in the raid. But yes, that one occasion destroyed necromancers and SK's for the rest of the server's duration from 2012 onwards. Amazing.

Do we need to file a separate bug report for this?

[Flyrr]

How about stop ruining items? Bladestopper nerf made naggy nearly a useless mob, no one even attempts to kill it with any priority. Puppet strings are completely useless now other than for OT hammers. The real issue here is that the clicky nerf killed content. Prayers are completely useless. No one touches root nets anymore, useless. Literally every item touched is basically removed from the game. Red wood wands, useless

If anything the clicky nerf should be scaled back so these items are useful again. All this proposal does is once again kill guild diversity by forcing guilds to carry 100+ active raiders, effectively funneling every player to two guilds to be competitive

[Katinna]

if you have this much of an issue with things on a non -classic server.. go play on green or just stop playing.. there is NOTHING about blue that is classic.. if you read their description the devs even word it as their idea of how classic should have been.. stop looking for things to nerf because YOU aren't happy.. move to a different server or play a different game..

[xeffo]

If you cast identify on the larry mask it says "class 3", seems intended/classic.

More like incorrectly flagged rechargable due to being mistaken for PoSky loot due to having 10 charges. There's no logical reason for a non PoSky item to be rechargable via PoSky.

[Gustoo]

Hooping trakanon down happenned once ever on the server. We used to carry maybe 10 total in the raid. But yes, that one occasion destroyed necromancers and SK's for the rest of the server's duration from 2012 onwards. Amazing.

Yeah that one is mega unclassic and mega cringe

[hotkarlmarxbros]

Quite the bold post asserting that staff has made an error in the itemization changes they deemed necessary to more closely replicate their vision of classic. Especially after being able to see the results of said changes, somehow your opinion needs extra special attention called to it while providing them with no new additional information.

Maybe instead of acting as some infantile tattletale trying to troll and encroach on the gameplay of others via disingenuous petition you could take the existing rules and apply them to yourself:

The following types of names are considered unacceptable:
Proper names from EverQuest (e.g. Rathe, Karana). This also includes the first or last name of any significant EverQuest NPC (e.g. Dorn, Trumpy, Karn).

Maybe it's time to rename that little gnome. Crybaby Balderson or something.

[Solist]

Quite the bold post asserting that staff has made an error in the itemization changes they deemed necessary to more closely replicate their vision of classic. Especially after being able to see the results of said changes, somehow your opinion needs extra special attention called to it while providing them with no new additional information.

Maybe instead of acting as some infantile tattletale trying to troll and encroach on the gameplay of others via disingenuous petition you could take the existing rules and apply them to yourself:

The following types of names are considered unacceptable:
Proper names from EverQuest (e.g. Rathe, Karana). This also includes the first or last name of any significant EverQuest NPC (e.g. Dorn, Trumpy, Karn).

Maybe it's time to rename that little gnome. Crybaby Balderson or something.

Did you even read the post?

The clicky nerf did nothing to address abuse of clickies in the raid scene. I want the rest nerfed as well.

[Solist]

if you have this much of an issue with things on a non -classic server.. go play on green or just stop playing.. there is NOTHING about blue that is classic.. if you read their description the devs even word it as their idea of how classic should have been.. stop looking for things to nerf because YOU aren't happy.. move to a different server or play a different game..

You know green is identical to blue in this regard, everything is the same there.

[Croco]

Did you even read the post?

The clicky nerf did nothing to address abuse of clickies in the raid scene. I want the rest nerfed as well.

Why is it abuse? Just because you say so? Seems like players found interesting and unique ways to use existing items and that was somehow a bad thing. Instead of being viewed as inevitable. If you put people in a sandbox for 10+ years they're going to explore every nook and cranny of said sandbox and find every possible use for the sand.

Give it a rest. Unnerf all the clickies. Bring them back to their classic functionality.

[YendorLootmonkey]

https://www.project1999.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3113857&postcount=1

Some examples of these items being used in a very unclassic and unintended way is an entire raid force using bags worth of an instant cast direct damage click items to blast a raid mob dead in less than a minute. Another situation is the use of these items to bypass the normal hate/aggro building mechanics of the game. Yet another case is the use of certain items to allow a low level player to defeat large groups of higher level mobs, effectively solo powerlevelling."

It's clear that the intent of the item nerf was to ensure these items did not trivialize content. If there are items that they missed that also trivialize content in the same manner, then it stands to reason that they should also be nerfed.

I have been told for the last 10+ years that the hardcore competitive raid guilds would appreciate the extra challenge and the opportunity to compete against each other in adapting to the loss of the use of these items, so there shouldn't be any complaints in removing "EZ mode."

[Solist]

Why is it abuse? Just because you say so? Seems like players found interesting and unique ways to use existing items and that was somehow a bad thing. Instead of being viewed as inevitable. If you put people in a sandbox for 10+ years they're going to explore every nook and cranny of said sandbox and find every possible use for the sand.

Give it a rest. Unnerf all the clickies. Bring them back to their classic functionality.

You're absolutely right.

It is abuse becuase it goes against the spirit of the game, in accordance with the spirit of the game the staff nerfed these items. So we would play by the spirit of the game. The nerf failed, as we just use different items now. Nothing changed. The nerf failed.

So yes, bring them back to how they were for 9 years.
OR
Nerf the rest of them, and push the point further.


https://www.project1999.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3113857&postcount=1



It's clear that the intent of the item nerf was to ensure these items did not trivialize content. If there are items that they missed that also trivialize content in the same manner, then it stands to reason that they should also be nerfed.

I have been told for the last 10+ years that the hardcore competitive raid guilds would appreciate the extra challenge and the opportunity to compete against each other in adapting to the loss of the use of these items, so there shouldn't be any complaints in removing "EZ mode."

The intent of the nerf was to ensure these items did not trivialize content.
We just changed from item a to item b, and continued to trivialize content.

Please nerf item b, as well. Or un nerf a. Both are fine with me, I have no dog in the fight.

There is currently the same EZ Mode as you put it, as those items that were nerfed aren't even really missed in the raiding scene, all got replaced with different more obscure items.

[Croco]

@yendor all content on p99 is trivial already

@solist Who gets to decide what the spirit of the game is? You? Devs? I raided at a high level from velious through depths of darkhollow across 2 servers in era. We never had guilds competing for content because there was always 1 top dog guild and 1 or 2 lesser guilds doing content an expansion or two behind. So the raid scene on blue violates the spirit of EQ to me so we should change it. Right?

You don't get to decide what the spirit of the game is to all people. Everyone has their own thoughts an opinions on what the spirit of the game is and they can operate under those opinions with their actions within the context of 1 to 1 classic functionality. That's Everquest. EQ was always people pushing the envelope and seeing what new cheese strategy they could come up with, what ways could we break in the game this week after the most recent patch? Casuals that didn't raid in era probably had no idea that was happening at a high level but they had one thing in common with the high end raiders. They played in the exact same sandbox, by the exact same rules.

Everything on p99 that has been changed to an unclassic state to preserve some perceived "spirit of classic everquest" is a joke. You can never experience what classic everquest was like unless you never played it to begin with, and even if that's the case you certainly won't experience classic everquest on any p99 server.

There are so many things on p99 that were just blatantly made up and fabricated by the devs because they didn't have the code so those things were unknowable. Even some stuff that we've found crystal clear in era evidence of the devs won't change for whatever reason because they just continue to ignore it. Like the unclassic state of Sleeper's Tomb.

This server, it's devs, it's raid scene, and the gm's are a joke.

[Solist]

I'm not advocating for anything except to either complete the nerf from last year; and nerf all the items. Or undo the nerf.

Either is fine. But it's annoying that the nerf achieved zero, nothing changed. Not one intentional target of the nerf (raid item exploitation) was hit, we just moved on to different items.

Finish the job, or undo it.

[Vivitron]

I'm not sure why you're including the wands: I don't see any intent in the original changes to make instant click tagging expensive or impossible.

[Solist]

I'm not sure why you're including the wands: I don't see any intent in the original changes to make instant click tagging expensive or impossible.

So they changed root nets for no reason, which at the time were the PRIMARY tagging item in all pull situations. They were, and it had been the case for 7 years or so up to that point. You would successively just put more clicks in as you needed to overaggro the previous person.

It was common for some mobs to come in frontloaded with 3-4 net clicks into them and not go onto the MT until the 4th mallet click.

Wands have replaced nets directly, except with less usefulness.

Flux staffs have replaced wands in higher aggro demand situations.

[Samoht]

Flux staffs have replaced wands in higher aggro demand situations.

Flux staff needs a cast time. Add it to your list.

[Nibblewitz]

Flux staff needs a cast time. Add it to your list.

Nah, the mechanics of the game should dictate game play. The GMs should not be carving out exceptions for items.

[YendorLootmonkey]

@solist Who gets to decide what the spirit of the game is? You? Devs?

I literally posted the context of the item nerfs from Rogean himself. The spirit of the nerf was to not have certain items trivialize content or bypass the aggro mechanics of the game. It stands to reason that if it was an incomplete list of items, that the rest of the items that are being used in the same manner should be nerfed in a similar fashion.

Anyone crying about that is clearly using these items as a crutch. Besides, you just claimed all the content is trivial, so the impact of nerfing the remaining items should be negligible.

[Samoht]

Nah, the mechanics of the game should dictate game play. The GMs should not be carving out exceptions for items.

The point of this thread is to either roll back the changes or to make the changes equal across the board. There should not be an option to leave flux staff the way it is while making all other items equal.

We either need a cast time on flux staff in addition to the rest of the changes recommended in this thread or we need to roll the rest back.

[Vivitron]

So they changed root nets for no reason, which at the time were the PRIMARY tagging item in all pull situations. They were, and it had been the case for 7 years or so up to that point. You would successively just put more clicks in as you needed to overaggro the previous person.

It was common for some mobs to come in frontloaded with 3-4 net clicks into them and not go onto the MT until the 4th mallet click.

Wands have replaced nets directly, except with less usefulness.

Flux staffs have replaced wands in higher aggro demand situations.

It looks to me like root nets were nerfed for their part as an aggro tool, intentionally leaving us with only low aggro tagging clickies.

[Croco]

I literally posted the context of the item nerfs from Rogean himself. The spirit of the nerf was to not have certain items trivialize content or bypass the aggro mechanics of the game. It stands to reason that if it was an incomplete list of items, that the rest of the items that are being used in the same manner should be nerfed in a similar fashion.

Anyone crying about that is clearly using these items as a crutch. Besides, you just claimed all the content is trivial, so the impact of nerfing the remaining items should be negligible.

All p99 content is trivial and has been for a long long time before any clicky items got nerfed. Forgive me if I don't care about what rogean thinks is the spirit of EQ. He's too busy raiding the plane of time on aradune to put any time and energy into p99 and it's many issues.

[Solist]

Flux staff needs a cast time. Add it to your list.

I addressed that. By changing lowerelement to 0 or 1 hate, or removing ability to cast it in raid zones.

Nerfing all non raiding people for the behaviour of raiding people was the effect of the first nerf. Those mistakes are from short sighted approach which I’d rather not be a part of. Flux staff is an integral part of wizard XP and grouping, utility etc.

It’s use as a clutch 100hate/second average spammable kiting or tagging tool is the exact type of item the original nerf sought to be rid of.

[Solist]

It looks to me like root nets were nerfed for their part as an aggro tool, intentionally leaving us with only low aggro tagging clickies.

All I can do is politely disagree, nets were a primary pulling, splitting, back tagging, cleanup, goaltending tool; as much as they were a tank swap or extra aggro quick fix tool.

If their intention was to leave only low aggro clickies then the scepter is a huge issue. Flux staff too, or ostensibly all the other class specific clicks from hate wands/phinny etc.

Either do it all right, or undo the nerfs and make some exception cases like Donals BP spell effect on reapers/soulfires so the heals bounce.

Add similar effects to all these instaclicks. Or in built recast delays. Then let them be used like their original design allowed without spamming.

A blade stopper with a 30second recast delay built in is not game breaking like me running around VP with a half dozen clicks of rune to spread across trains. A 5 sec recast delay on a flux staff is a great compromise. 30sec on strings, etc etc.

There is a myriad of solutions possible. The least dev effort is my original, the best for the players and spirit of the game I can also take the time to write but we can’t get velious armour working let alone a bunch of unique item changes for a subset of autists.

[realsubtle]

That sounds like a lot of work. We should let the P99 devs take it easy for once.

[Croco]

That sounds like a lot of work. We should let the P99 devs take it easy for once.

Here here! There's probably lots of vendors that aren't selling grapes like they should be. #1 priority!

[Loke]

This is a perfect example of why aiming for classic mechanics is better than classic experience. Emergent game play is more interesting and engaging than engineered game play. So after 20+ years of playing EQ, players figured out ways to maximize the efficacy of items in the game... so what? One way or another raiders are going to find a way to trivialize content with enough time. We've seen nerfed clickes, rooted dragons, removal of push interrupt, and countless other tweaks... and while the strategies have changed, the content remains trivial.

People are never going to agree on what constitutes a "classic experience", but aiming for classic mechanics like the server seemed to do in the first few years is much less controversial. Remember when "not classic" actually meant something, and any changes needed to be supported by evidence?

More non-classic changes isn't the solution.

[Solist]

This is a perfect example of why aiming for classic mechanics is better than classic experience. Emergent game play is more interesting and engaging than engineered game play. So after 20+ years of playing EQ, players figured out ways to maximize the efficacy of items in the game... so what? One way or another raiders are going to find a way to trivialize content with enough time. We've seen nerfed clickes, rooted dragons, removal of push interrupt, and countless other tweaks... and while the strategies have changed, the content remains trivial.

People are never going to agree on what constitutes a "classic experience", but aiming for classic mechanics like the server seemed to do in the first few years is much less controversial. Remember when "not classic" actually meant something, and any changes needed to be supported by evidence?

More non-classic changes isn't the solution.

I am 100% in agreement with you. 100%, I want pure unfiltered classic eq and to use every modern emergent tactic and obscure item to do the most interesting possible fights.

Roll back the item changes, change the lifetap MR modifiers, unlimit AE targets, wind down the back-stun-on-hit % a few notches, add some push to interrupt back, stop the unclassic auto gate at 20%, make full speed flee at 20% a thing scaling with hp to a crawl away like classic, make only 4 NPC's ever at once attack you like classic so the 20 others just stand there etc. We play in this weird sandbox of notclassic everquest, but also notcustom. It's an odd position to be in if you were asked to describe P99.

Without rolling all that stuff back, changing it to classic proper everquest (the reason I posit many of us still play is the 'hope' P99 becomes classic one day) the best we can strive for is to have the original intent of the patches actually have the intended result.

A patch that ruins a bunch of solo/duo/group content and is ineffective at changing raiding which was the target, that makes the patch in its current form a bug; and a useles one, if not followed through
More non-classic changes isn't the solution.
So it isn't more non-classic changes I'm seeking, I'm seeking to finish the one unclassic change they intended to do; or abolish it and go back.

[azxten]

Here is an idea...

Raid mobs can be flagged as such and the code can be changed so that clicked itemeffects respond differently for raid mobs. You can even do things like this...

On reaper click if RaidMob is spawned block cast and message, "A powerful force overwhelms your item's magical properties."

All items can be left alone and purely altered in the context of a raid event. Then that functionality can be changed to whatever it should be in that context. Any clicky rune can be blocked, made longer to cast, whatever needs to happen.

You can just standardize based on effect as well. A net, mallet, flux or whatever else can all be standardized to do X aggro if you're in a raid zone with a raid mob spawned. That function could even dynamically account for the classic item parameters.

Let's say a "balanced" level of aggro is 10 per second. Now you know you just need to do item aggro = ideal aggro per second * item cast time. A 1 second cast item does 10 aggro and a 5 second cast item does 50 aggro. An instant click item does 1 aggro assuming you can click it 10 times in a second from a game mechanic perspective.

Runes too powerful for aggro or shielding? Same concept. Use the cast time to adjust aggro and level of rune provided in the context of being in a zone with a raid mob spawned.

Lifetap clicks? Raid mobs are immune and reverse the spell causing them to reflect the spell and lifetap you instead.

Just saying that is how I'd do it. The goal seems to be to balance raiding not nerf items and have to keep track of how items have been changed from classic. They work as classic unless you're in a raid zone and a powerful raid mob is spawned and then they work according to a formula based on the effect that standardizes all items. How does a CH clicky work if a raid mob is up in your zone? Lifetap click? Aggro click? Shield click? They all work the same as any other clicky with that effect and as designed to not trivialize the content.

Personally I like leaving things to operate as classic until they are abused and then nerfing them because that IS classic. I agree the half classic half not classic is annoying. Item recharging for example should be nerfed because Verant would have nerfed it if it was being abused in a widespread manner like on P99. Classic mechanics should be left in until the meta changes to abuse them or use them excessively and then they should be nerfed. Ideally this would be done for each server relaunch so Green you can do anything you could on classic and on Blue almost everything is nerfed. It could even be scripted, the second some number of lifetap hoops are clicked on a raid mob the raid mob logic adjusts and that won't work anymore. Same for any other abused mechanic. Raid mob counted X CH item effects on aggroed players? Now it doesn't work anymore in a raid mob zone if the mob is up.

[branamil]

Can we just admit that it's not classic anymore? It's strayed so far from classic that it's kind of a joke to keep pushing that server motto. It's two dudes' custom, private server.

[Croco]

Verant would have nerfed it if it was being abused in a widespread manner like on P99.

That's not how it works if you are striving for 1 to 1 classic everquest. You don't get to guess what verant would've done or take into account what they did in the luclin or pop eras. You also don't get to decide to nerf things into an unclassic state just because players are smarter and have more information about how things work these days. Emergent gameplay is fun and inevitable.

[Whyt]

Can we just admit that it's not classic anymore? It's strayed so far from classic that it's kind of a joke to keep pushing that server motto. It's two dudes' custom, private server.

this.

[Danth]

They work as classic unless you're in a raid zone and a powerful raid mob is spawned and then they work according to a formula based on the effect that standardizes all items.

So if I'm fighting efreeti my reaper might or might not work based on whether or not Nagafen is spawned on the other side of the zone? That's not classic EQ in either fact or in feel. Items didn't work randomly like that in the original game. It could be done, but I don't think it should be done since it's a move away from P99's purpose.

Danth

[azxten]

So if I'm fighting efreeti my reaper might or might not work based on whether or not Nagafen is spawned on the other side of the zone? That's not classic EQ in either fact or in feel. Items didn't work randomly like that in the original game. It could be done, but I don't think it should be done since it's a move away from P99's purpose.

Danth

That would be ignoring the current situation where the item just isn't classic at all times and also that raid mobs on P99 pretty much don't exist for more than a few minutes so 99% of the time that wouldn't be happening. I actually originally thought it should just be a radius check like the Nagafen level check but I'm sure people think that requires too much dev effort. My point really is just that if we're going to nerf things specifically because of raid abuse then the nerf should be limited to the raid mob rather than the item that was abused. Specifically because not doing that and trying to nerf individual items leads to the situation outlined in OP of not actually achieving the goal and impacting things outside of raiding.

[Solist]

Guys,

The discussion isnt about classic or not. Let it go.

This is about a patch that had an intended change, that failed. And getting that patch completed, or abolished.

Classic has nothing to do with it, and hasn't on P1999 since 2010 or so.

[Samoht]

Also, Brass Idols (https://wiki.project1999.com/Shiny_Brass_Idol) need a cast time.

[eisley]

The only one that really bothers me is the Puppet Strings nerf. It dusted an entire subset of the community - challenge fights. Solo, duo, trio hard content using strings pets. It was super fun and the primary reason some of us even played the game.

[Benisato]

The fix is actually pretty easy..

Undo all of the nerfs you made to items to make them not act as they did originally..

Root / Call of the zero for all raid mobs, and all mobs in certain zones like ToV, ST, etc.

Force these sweaty nerds to dungeon crawl.. like the gods intended.

[Croco]

You can't make a sandbox and say here come play in the sandbox! Then when you see how people play in the sandbox you say "oh no, not that way!", and you restrict, and restrict, and restrict until it's more akin to a linear on rails action adventure game instead of an mmo.

Everyone has a different version of what "Classic" everquest was to them based on server differences and how more or less hardcore you were during those times. We all mostly have like 20+ years of experience with this game and there's no way to put the toothpaste back in the tube and have everyone experience "classic" again for the first time.

The best thing you can do is accurately recreate the sandbox as close to 1 to 1 as you can and let people play within the sandbox however they will.