Potential changes to the way CHA works for enchanters

[tranceminus]

I looked around the forums a bit to see if this was mentioned elsewhere, but I couldn't find anything. I may have just missed it, and if so my bad.

Anyway, on the TAKP forums there's a thread about the way CHA affects charm. Essentially, CHA is only checked when the spell initially lands on the mob, and then does not in any way affect charm duration.

Haynar commented on that thread and mentioned the he's been asked to apply this mechanic to P99, and that it would be "a big change for them".

https://www.takproject.net/forums/index.php?threads/eli5-changes-to-charming-resists-and-cha.19762/#post-99583

I was just wondering what everyone thinks the overall effect of this change would be. Would this make charm more reliable, or less?

Would the change be significant enough to make maxing CHA no longer the priority?

[Jibartik]

I have no idea but I do think the CHA stat is one of the best parts of p99 and still think necros should get longer fears from - cha and charms etc.

On live cha is useless and if it becomes that way on p99 that would be sad but not the end of the world.

[Izmael]

If this change means nerfing charm, then hard pass.

It would spoil a big part of P99 that charming is and always has been. Charm has produced some of the most interesting achievements on P99. Without charm, solo artist challenge would probably not even have been a thing.

I haven't even played an enchanter in the last 4 years but if charm gets gimped, I'll probably just try to forget about P99 alltogether.

I would be interested in knowing who exactly "asked" Haynar to remove CHA from the charm equation. It's obviously a fundamental change that will affect P99 deeply, not necessarily in a good way.

[Tann]

Without charm, solo artist challenge would probably not even have been a thing.

It would just be torpor shamans

[unsunghero]

if charm gets gimped, I'll probably just try to forget about P99 alltogether

^

I know devs wouldn’t care but I’d be in the same boat. No interest atm in playing other classes

[loramin]

Wow, zero respect for classic in this thread: people bitching about how they won't play this class/game if they can't play with unclassic power :( I say nerf the hell out of charisma, Enchanters, and/or charming: as long as it's classic I'm 100% for it!

(And for the record, I don't remember charm being anything like it is here on live.)

[Tann]

And for the record, I don't remember charm being anything like it is here on live.

While I can't speak for enchanters I know bard charm or maybe aggro mechanics ain't classic here. No evidence, just memory of leveling my bard via swarm kiting (charm beat down with 6-8 mobs) and it doesn't work here like it did on live back in Kunark/velious.

I still play my bard regardless, but still annoying I can't level like I used too.

[Jibartik]

Wow, zero respect for classic in this thread: people bitching about how they won't play this class/game if they can't play with unclassic power :( I say nerf the hell out of charisma, Enchanters, and/or charming: as long as it's classic I'm 100% for it!

(And for the record, I don't remember charm being anything like it is here on live.)

Before you pick a side, got any evidence that this is classic?

[Izmael]

people bitching about how they won't play this class/game if they can't play with unclassic power :(

You missed the part where I said that I don't actually play an enchanter.

A charm nerf won't affect me in any way, however I will still cross P99 out of my life if this happens, because it will take out a fundamental component out of P99, and dramatically lower the skill ceiling.

It takes a lot of skill to use charm to work your way around a challenging zone. It takes zero skill to tank-dps-heal around. There are a million other games that provide that low-skill experience already.

Don't gimp P99!

[Tann]

To be fair making it more risky to charm would raise the skill ceiling no?

Is there any proof that it's not classic on p99? "How I remember it" ain't proof, as I've been told numerous times about bard swarming.

[pink grapefruit]

To be fair making it more risky to charm would raise the skill ceiling no?

Is there any proof that it's not classic on p99? "How I remember it" ain't proof, as I've been told numerous times about bard swarming.

Swarm kiting was well-documented back in the day. I also did a lot of real swarm kiting.

People who never played bard until P99 have no idea what swarm kiting actually is.

swarm kiting is NOT AE kiting lol.

[Tann]

Swarm kiting was well-documented back in the day. I also did a lot of real swarm kiting.

People who never played bard until P99 have no idea what swarm kiting actually is.

swarm kiting is NOT AE kiting lol.

I don't mean to further derail this enchanter charm thread, but..

what I meant by not working like it did on live is the pack would turn on the charmed pet once you got far enough away, some sort of leashing effect.

I used to play on a potatoe pc back in the day so my clip plane was almost at 0, so I knew once I couldn't see the pack anymore they would all turn on my charmed pet.

I almost got a wizard from Legacy of Steel killed because whilst kiting one time I got far enough from my swarm and he was sitting down close enough that they all charged at him.

No proof of course, but last I checked.. couple years ago, it still doesn't work like this here.

[pink grapefruit]

I don't mean to further derail this enchanter charm thread, but..

what I meant by not working like it did on live is the pack would turn on the charmed pet once you got far enough away, some sort of leashing effect.

I used to play on a potatoe pc back in the day so my clip plane was almost at 0, so I knew once I couldn't see the pack anymore they would all turn on my charmed pet.

I almost got a wizard from Legacy of Steel killed because whilst kiting one time I got far enough from my swarm and he was sitting down close enough that they all charged at him.

No proof of course, but last I checked.. couple years ago, it still doesn't work like this here.

I thought the only reason swarm kiting didn't work was bc they couldn't code it in properly? Every old bard should remember swarming TD raptors, right?

[Izmael]

To be fair making it more risky to charm would raise the skill ceiling no?


Not if charm ceases to be a viable mean of achieving things and people simply no longer bother charming. They will just achieve the same results by sleepwalking through content with more players instead of soloing or duoing.

[Izmael]

To be fair, we don't know if the CHA changes may affect charm viability. Maybe the plans are that the average charm duration will still be about the same as it was with 255 CHA or something like that.

Even then it would be an unfortunate change as it would remove complexity from P99 and make it "shallower". I like P99 to be as complex as possible with eternal debates about the roles played by stats such as CHA or AGI or whatever. It's part of what makes EQ great.

[Jibartik]

Im sure that they will be easier now with bigger mana pools.

Lull is pretty integral to my enchanter gameplay so maybe it wont change much at all, idk.

[Tann]

I thought the only reason swarm kiting didn't work was bc they couldn't code it in properly? Every old bard should remember swarming TD raptors, right?

TD Aviaks was my jam.

[bilirubin]

To be fair making it more risky to charm would raise the skill ceiling no?

Is there any proof that it's not classic on p99? "How I remember it" ain't proof, as I've been told numerous times about bard swarming.

The argument that CHA should not affect charm duration assumes the original spell developer, Geoffrey Zatkin, gave false info when asked about this mechanic in 1999 as well as Niente, a more recent developer, in 2018.

[Tann]

Bargain bin amateur internet detective here but relevant??:

https://web.archive.org/web/20040124121045/http://eq.crgaming.com/archives.asp?Day=8&Month=10&Year=1999&ID=4660&Action=View

[Samoht]

Why would this be a nerf to charm? As it is, charm has several checks per tick for resist, cha, mr, etc. If you remove the CHA check, that's one less chance to break.

If anything, this just means less reliance on CHA end-game. Time to trade CHA gear for INT/HP.

[Tann]

If you remove the CHA check, that's one less chance to break.

if an npc no longer has to roll a saving throw against your 255 charisma then that's a win for them I would think, not the enchanter.

[bilirubin]

Why would this be a nerf to charm? As it is, charm has several checks per tick for resist, cha, mr, etc. If you remove the CHA check, that's one less chance to break.


My understanding was that the addition of a charisma check gave an additional chance for the charm not to break, thus making them (in general) last longer if you have high charisma.

[Jimjam]

Not if charm ceases to be a viable mean of achieving things and people simply no longer bother charming. They will just achieve the same results by sleepwalking through content with more players instead of soloing or duoing.

Please, I can only get so excited.

Everything you described sounds so classic!

[Jibartik]

It's pretty obvious when you are not wearing CHA gear as an enchanter so I imagine it will be like that.

It is by no means an issue when you're afk for 28 minuets of a 30 minuet timer, but it is obvious.

[Vivitron]

Here's the tl; http://www.eqemulator.org/forums/showthread.php?p=266999, and here's the dr (https://www.takproject.net/forums/index.php?threads/eli5-changes-to-charming-resists-and-cha.19762/#post-99564)'s:



CHA did not affect charm durations prior to the patch and it still does not.
Pets with 0 MR have the exact same break chance as before.
Depending on the pets's level relative to the charmer, in some circumstances charm will hold less often and in other circumstances charm will hold better than before. (because of the +4 level mod)

I based the previous charm break logic on a data sample I had personally made on AK in which I knew I was very diligent in keeping debuffs on the pet, and that sample just happened to be extremely average so I had a good guess already. If however your pet's effective MR is anywhere from 6-11, you'll get more breaks. ('effective MR' meaning the MR after level advantage debuffs etc is factored in)

and (https://www.takproject.net/forums/index.php?threads/eli5-changes-to-charming-resists-and-cha.19762/#post-99583)

I have been asked to add this to p99. That will be a big change for them.

There's a whole lot in the tl including an explanation of why they believe these are the correct mechanics, and a bunch of non-charm mechanics, and I haven't fully been through it.

For charm, I think the two main questions are: 1. How does the minimum per-tick break chance compare before and after, and 2. How hard is it to get to that minimum compared to before.

For 1, based on my logs I think the minimum per tick chance is maybe moderately lower on P99 than on TAKP if that, (e.g. leading to ~6 minute and change average charms instead of ~5 minute and change). I don't think this change will be particularly painful.

2 is less clear to me.

Cha: I think cha is currently acting like a negative resist mod; and that you get one negative resist per probably every 10 or every 8 cha after 75, and that cha is probably either hard capped at 200 or 255 with no soft cap. Call it an extra -12 to -22 resist; it may be that you end up needing a couple negative mr items where you didn't previously, or it may be that we were already overshooting the resist floor on most of our charms.

Levels: The tl describes a +4 level bonus for charm checks and a -40mr bonus cap for charm checks; I wonder if P99 had either or both of these. The mr adjust for levels (described both in the tldr and consistent with EQEMU source) is that level difference squared divided by two is the resist adjust. So if we had neither the cap nor the bonus a level 60 would get a -50mr bonus on a level 50 mob. But a level 60 with a +4 bonus and no cap would get a -98mr bonus (14^2 / 2). My guess is P99 has neither the cap nor the bonus currently. If that's the case we could be in about the same place on, say, a boltran's charm at 60, (previously (60 - 53) ^ 2 / 2 = -24mr adjust, now (64 - 53) ^ 2 / 2 = -40 (capped) mr adjust, that's -16 mr gained; which is roughly what we lose from the removal of the per-tick charisma adjustment.)

Now, when Haynar says he's been asked to add this to P99 I wonder what is included in "this", because there are a bunch of non-charm mechanics in that tl. The biggest that I saw so far is this: "mobs 6 levels and under below the caster will never aggro [from lull]". That would be a significant buff; some of the high plat solo spots have trash mobs that cap out at level 53.

Edit: My tld;dr: I wouldn't be surprised if we see average "easy charm" duration go from ~6.5 minutes to ~5.5 minutes; or if some few specific charms need a piece or two of -mr gear that they previously didn't, but I would be surprised if we see effects on charm larger than that.

[Baler]

This seems like something that should have been fixed 10 years ago.

People got set in their ways and have had the carpet pulled out from under them.

How many guides, videos, forums posts and wiki pages are incorrect now. Years of information for new players to view is now thrown out the window. Yeah I get it reaching the classic but did it have to wait this long? really?
That's my only complaint.

[Danth]

l. The biggest that I saw so far is this: "mobs 6 levels and under below the caster will never aggro [from lull]". That would be a significant buff; some of the high plat solo spots have trash mobs that cap out at level 53.
.

Doesn't TAKP's chosen era post-date the Luclin-era Lull revamp? If so then their lull mechanics are irrelevant to those used on P1999. Granted, once in awhile P99 adds nonclassic post-era changes in an effort to curb abuse (ie, like rooted dragons).

[Vivitron]

Doesn't TAKP's chosen era post-date the Luclin-era Lull revamp? If so then their lull mechanics are irrelevant to those used on P1999. Granted, once in awhile P99 adds nonclassic post-era changes in an effort to curb abuse (ie, like rooted dragons).

I missed that, thanks.

[Tann]

Here's the tl; http://www.eqemulator.org/forums/showthread.php?p=266999, and here's the dr (https://www.takproject.net/forums/index.php?threads/eli5-changes-to-charming-resists-and-cha.19762/#post-99564)'s

No offense to Torven but.. he's saying the EQ dev in 1999 is wrong about CHA helping charm duration and is citing a crapton of data gathered from the live client and pop era (takp) client??

or did I read those links wrong?

[Tann]

^^ to add

"Geoffrey Zatkin answered a question in 1999 where he claimed that charisma had a role in charm durations. He was also either wrong or charm changed before PoP went Live...As a developer myself I can attest that it's easy to get stuff wrong when taking a cursory look at code, so disputing developer claims isn't as presumptuous as it seems."

https://youtu.be/gqW42BFqVjo at 23:10 Geoffrey Zatkin talks about designing enchanters... 30:10 when he mentions charm.

Just saying, I don't think he was "taking a cursory look at code" when he said CHA effects charm duration considered he designed them.

[Dolalin]

I thought the only reason swarm kiting didn't work was bc they couldn't code it in properly? Every old bard should remember swarming TD raptors, right?

Swarm kiting should work if all of the aggro/hate mechanics that Torven outlined in this thread of his are implemented properly:

http://www.eqemulator.org/forums/showthread.php?t=39819

Specifically the proximity aggro bit and hate list transfer:


If every player on a NPC's hate list is outside of melee range, and they all have similar hate levels, the NPC will prefer to attack the closer player.


There is some sort of hate bonus applied that scales by distance to the target only if the NPC is not close enough to hit somebody. If you attempt to train an NPC over somebody who has the same amount of hate as you do, it will chase after them instead of you from a variable distance that is larger when the hate difference is smaller. The more hate you have over them, the closer you have to bring the NPC to them in order for it to attack them. Like other bonuses, this bonus isn't terribly large so it's rather trivial to overcome. This bonus seems to taper down to 0 roughly 100 distance away, or perhaps some factor of the NPC's size/melee range. This is of course very difficult to measure.

NPCs calling for help will cause them to social aggro on players even after they are already aggro on another player.

There is an issue on the emus where, for example, you can aggro an NPC, then drag it nearby another NPC on the same faction that is engaged with another player, and you will not get on the hate list of that second NPC. This is incorrect behavior. NPCs will share who they hate with each other even after entering combat.

[pink grapefruit]

Swarm kiting should work if all of the aggro/hate mechanics that Torven outlined in this thread of his are implemented properly:

http://www.eqemulator.org/forums/showthread.php?t=39819

Specifically the proximity aggro bit and hate list transfer:

Omgggg I hope so!!

Swarming was always my preferred method of soloing and it always sucked it never worked here. It causes less zone disruption than AE kiting too so if true this is a win for everyone.

Still not sure if I’ll be playing bard or ranger for the upcoming new pvp server. Tough decision 😁

[Tann]

Swarm kiting should work if all of the aggro/hate mechanics that Torven outlined in this thread of his are implemented properly:

http://www.eqemulator.org/forums/showthread.php?t=39819

Specifically the proximity aggro bit and hate list transfer:

So I wasn't wrong remembering aggro working like this at some point? Neat.

[rustyfingers]

Wow, zero respect for classic in this thread: people bitching about how they won't play this class/game if they can't play with unclassic power :( I say nerf the hell out of charisma, Enchanters, and/or charming: as long as it's classic I'm 100% for it!

(And for the record, I don't remember charm being anything like it is here on live.)


Are you some kind of fundamentalist / talibans of everquest ?

Who really cares about things being absolutely classic or not, as long as they re fun for people who plays an enchater ?
You dont like how charisma works ? fine, dont play an enchanter then, problem solved.

And in case you did not notice, games design changes over years/ decades, what was acceptable in 1999 would be considered as bad game design even 5 years after.

If we all play EQ still 22 years after its creation, let's not forget that, while we all love the game, it have some massive game design flaws , lots of terrible zone design, very poor itemization, afterthought class design and so on.

You dont have to be overzealous to love something .

[Tunabros]

I'm still playing my enchanter

and I'm gonna roll a new one on green this time

think I will do a dark elf this time hah

[Tann]

Are you some kind of fundamentalist / talibans of everquest ?

You clearly don't remember or never read posts by Daldaen if you think Loramin is the fun police.

I'm all for this change if it's classic, but using eqlive data to justify a change to a velious era server seems off.

[unsunghero]

You clearly don't remember or never read posts by Daldaen if you think Loramin is the fun police.

I'm all for this change if it's classic, but using eqlive data to justify a change to a velious era server seems off.

I don’t like getting the rug ripped out from under you

There was a lot of enchanter hate a few months back on the off topic and rants and flame boards about charm where how charm functioned in classic vs p99 was argued at at no point did any developer come in and say they planned to look at adjusting charm at some future point

I would have really appreciated the heads up because I wouldn’t have committed the time to a class I expected to get nerfed months down the road. I understand that maybe even the majority of people can and will adapt to sudden nerfs such as these but I purposefully sought out P99 and then an enchanter because I thought balancing changes were done. At this point all I can be is grateful that I can get out now versus having sunk even more time and attention into the game and class

“It’ll be a minor change, enchanters are still OP”. Fine, let’s accept both points. What also has been proven is the devs don’t like how enchanters charm performs, and there’s no guarantee that they will be satisfied after the change, and I now know that they do not communicate their intentions in advance (which I ABSOLUTELY do not fault them for, this is not a paid position, they are under NO obligation to). But what this all means is there’s no guarantee that there won’t be additional future changes or nerfs to charm or some other function of enchanters and that change most likely won’t come with any advanced notification. And that just doesn’t sit well with me and why I sought this server out

[Seducio]

If this change happens then enchanters seeking CHA gear will become a thing of the past. Instead a newly minted enchanter could focus on HP, AC, and resists. The need to drive for 205 CHA to be able to self buff up to 255 CHA will no longer be the key to longer charms.

The end result is Enchanters will be more powerful naked than before the change if it were to occur.

Certain high value CHA items like neriad shawl would become less important overnight.

It'll be interesting whether the change happens or not.

[unsunghero]

If this change happens then enchanters seeking CHA gear will become a thing of the past. Instead a newly minted enchanter could focus on HP, AC, and resists. The need to drive for 205 CHA to be able to self buff up to 255 CHA will no longer be the key to longer charms.

The end result is Enchanters will be more powerful naked than before the change if it were to occur.

Certain high value CHA items like neriad shawl would become less important overnight.

It'll be interesting whether the change happens or not.

I think this makes the class more bland, less interesting

I enjoyed the concept of focusing on cha to start but as mobs started to become more and more threatening as I got up in levels micromanaging where in my gear I could afford to make swaps for +ac/hp while still retaining the high cha

On takp cha only functions for the initial charm resist chance. In at least 1000 charms I’ve done on my char’s lifetime I can’t recall ever getting an initial resist. So that point is completely irrelevant, no one is going to be trying to charm yellows anyway. So now you don’t need a full time cha set, just something to strap on after you want to blur or lull

Now there’s no calculated cha sacrifice or substitutions. Now the amount of ac or hp along with cha on gear is irrelevant, since you’ll only be wearing your cha gear for like less than 2% of your playtime unless you are non-stop lulling through a dungeon for some reason

It just dumbs the class down. And that guy on green server who posted that he solo’d getting the neriad shawl at lev 49 even though it took like 25+ deaths? Sucks to be him :(

[ghostwalker]

^^ to add

"Geoffrey Zatkin answered a question in 1999 where he claimed that charisma had a role in charm durations. He was also either wrong or charm changed before PoP went Live...As a developer myself I can attest that it's easy to get stuff wrong when taking a cursory look at code, so disputing developer claims isn't as presumptuous as it seems."

https://youtu.be/gqW42BFqVjo at 23:10 Geoffrey Zatkin talks about designing enchanters... 30:10 when he mentions charm.

Just saying, I don't think he was "taking a cursory look at code" when he said CHA effects charm duration considered he designed them.

I don't think this should be overlooked... if the guy who created and designed the class is saying that CHA is essential to how charm functions, then perhaps this should be heeded. Things did change with Luclin and POP, and as others have pointed out, who is to say that TAKP is "more" classic when it is based on that era, and not classic? Why would you make CHA irrelevant, completely contradicting the designer's own words?

[Tann]

I don't think this should be overlooked... if the guy who created and designed the class is saying that CHA is essential to how charm functions, then perhaps this should be heeded. Things did change with Luclin and POP, and as others have pointed out, who is to say that TAKP is "more" classic when it is based on that era, and not classic? Why would you make CHA irrelevant, completely contradicting the designer's own words?

Oh it's absolutely getting overlooked cause the enchanter hate is strong here, a possible non-classic change that the haters and "make it classic" people are now campaigning for with no evidence.

[Seducio]

Whoever thinks the devs still care to 'make it classic' has lost the plot.

This is Rogean and Nilbog's baby in every way.

They can do whatever they like.

[yennenhoj]

I'd never be able to find it, but I remember back in the day the developers stating several times that enchanters were giving charisma too much credit. That it played a role in charms (and mez?), but that level and MR were much bigger factors. Something like, if your level and MR checks fail your CHA check has a small chance of helping you out.

My, very hazy, memory of charming pre-Luclin is that charm normally didn't last long enough for me to kill 2 mobs and often didn't last long enough to kill 1. That may have been user error, though.

[Tunabros]

Whoever thinks the devs still care to 'make it classic' has lost the plot.

This is Rogean and Nilbog's baby in every way.

They can do whatever they like.

and we are their guinea pigs