I finally I found it: a Troll Shadow Knight guide

[atroche]

Just had to scour the early 2000s webrings:

https://web.archive.org/web/20010408065832/http://sk.eqhq.com/wtsk.html

[DeathsSilkyMist]

As a fellow TSK, I approve this guide.

[Jibartik]

Nice find.

[Gustoo]

all era made guides are gold and remind me of why I love this game.

these forums...not so much.

[Baler]

Troll SK is the best race for SK who want to pull & Tag. <- widely underused.
Ogre SK is the best race for SK who want to tank.
(iksar is the min/max best but you'll need BiS end game velious raid loot to get your stats + resists up to compete)

Thanks For sharing,
You should PM Dolalin to have him archive it. :)

-----
ps. I enjoy reading this troll shaman pvp guide (https://www.notacult.com/guide_trollshaman.html) sometimes.

[Dokuton]

That guide is full of charm and character, thank you. Love my TGL!

[Balimon]

Great guide, got some nostalgia feels from that for sure. 'Sunday EC auctions' I remember it was Saturday on The Rathe when evvvveryone came out to buy/sell. Was so much fun.

[Tunabros]

why would anyone torture themselves playing troll shadowknight

[DeathsSilkyMist]

why would anyone torture themselves playing troll shadowknight

Troll SK's are great. Coolest looking plate graphics and animations in the game. Plus high stats and regen for faster play.

[Stonewallx39]

Troll SK's are great. Coolest looking plate graphics and animations in the game. Plus high stats and regen for faster play.

Ogres are clearly the BEST SK race because of front stub immunity! (Hahaha! Sorry couldn’t help myself with all of your Ogre love posts for shammy had to fire one back at’cha). In all seriousness troll SKs are awesome, both looks/stats wise as well as just being super RP evil.

[Stonewallx39]

Just had to scour the early 2000s webrings:

https://web.archive.org/web/20010408065832/http://sk.eqhq.com/wtsk.html

Thanks for sharing this guide! A lot of fun to read.

Interesting about the Gypsies, I’m pretty sure they screwed up the faction now so gypsies are dubious to evil races. At least in NK I had to sneak to sell to them fairly recently.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Ogres are clearly the BEST SK race because of front stub immunity! (Hahaha! Sorry couldn’t help myself with all of your Ogre love posts for shammy had to fire one back at’cha). In all seriousness troll SKs are awesome, both looks/stats wise as well as just being super RP evil.

Not a very good Troll (get it), since I never claimed this about Shadowknights:) Ogre is the best Min/Max Shaman race. Troll/Iksar regen is much better on classes that do not have a highly efficient heal spell like Torpor. It is also better on classes with FD. I know Shamans get the FD ring, but unless you recharge it a LOT, it isn't your main ability for avoiding death. The main reason why Ogre FSI is better on Warriors in the long run is because Warriors are mostly a grouping class, where regen basically becomes useless. It is much rarer for people to make a solo focused Warrior, and keep them solo focused forever.

For Shadowknights, plenty of people feel comfortable mostly playing solo forever. The combination of their skills being great in solo play mixed with their poor raiding status make Shadowknights a mostly solo/single group class. The Min/Max race is a bit of a toss-up between Troll and Ogre, depending on what you want to do. Trolls are the better solo SK due to the regen, and Ogres are the better grouping SK with FSI. One could make a reasonable case for FSI still being superior to regen in solo play, as it helps you get FD off easier when you have multiple mobs attacking you. But between Deaths Peace and Blood Ember Greaves, you get plenty of opportunities to cast and recast FD. I do notice the bash stun interrupts on my Troll Shadowknight, and they have caused me issues. Most of the time I can get FD off just fine, and when that happens the regen gets me back in the fight much sooner.

[Tunabros]

Best SK race is human hands down

SK is such a roleplay heavy class

who cares about min-maxing

[Toxigen]

Best SK race is human hands down

SK is such a roleplay heavy class

who cares about min-maxing

human / DE / erudite depending on your preference...but yes...precisely this

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Best SK race is human hands down

SK is such a roleplay heavy class

who cares about min-maxing

Some people do like Min/Maxing:) I don't knock you for playing purely for fashion reasons. Give me the same courtesy. I really don't understand why people hate players who enjoy maximizing their stats.

EDIT: Also, if you do plan on Min/Maxing stats by getting all BiS gear, Erudite is the best SK race due to having the highest INT. BiS Velious tank gear will not max INT on any race. But you do give up the Regen/FSI, which are also great.

[kaev]

Some people do like Min/Maxing:) I don't knock you for playing purely for fashion reasons. Give me the same courtesy. I really don't understand why people hate players who enjoy maximizing their stats.

...

Players are not hated for minmaxing per se. Minmaxers are hated for:

being obnoxious gits about it,
refusing to group classes/races that have not received their MinMaxSealOfApproval[tm],
being obnoxious gits about it,
demanding "perfect" size & composition of their groups,
being obnoxious gits about it,
framing all in-game social interaction in terms of their personal "perfection" in race/class/gear choices,
being obnoxious gits about it.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Players are not hated for minmaxing per se. Minmaxers are hated for:

being obnoxious gits about it,
refusing to group classes/races that have not received their MinMaxSealOfApproval[tm],
being obnoxious gits about it,
demanding "perfect" size & composition of their groups,
being obnoxious gits about it,
framing all in-game social interaction in terms of their personal "perfection" in race/class/gear choices,
being obnoxious gits about it.


This is silly, because nobody here is obnoxious about Min/Maxing (not that I have seen anyway). If you start discussing specifics of game mechanics, there IS a right and wrong answer. The right answer needs to be uncovered for Min/Max builds to work correctly. Otherwise, you do not Min/Max due to faulty information. I think you are just misinterpreting mechanic discussions.

If there are players out there who don't group with Human Monks because they aren't Iksars, for example, I agree with you they are idiots hehe.

[kaev]

...
If there are players out there who don't group with Human Monks because they aren't Iksars, for example, I agree with you they are idiots hehe.

Not necessarily idiots, some obnoxious gits are actually astonishingly clever (i.e. much more clever than I). Cleverness is not a virtue, however, and so it does not in any way mitigate their obnoxiousness.

back OT, that is a neat guide.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Not necessarily idiots, some obnoxious gits are actually astonishingly clever (i.e. much more clever than I). Cleverness is not a virtue, however, and so it does not in any way mitigate their obnoxiousness.

back OT, that is a neat guide.

Nah, they are idiots. I think you are grouping players who want to maximize their character's effectiveness via Min/Maxing with players who want to xp as fast as possible. They are not the same types of players.

Anybody who wants to maximize their xp gains via skilled players and group composition know that you do this by playing with friends who have the same schedule as you.

If you try to maximize xp gains in a public group by not inviting Troll SKs due to xp penalty, Human Monks due to less regen, etc., you have already missed the point. You can't maximize xp gains in a public group, there isn't any point in trying. Public groups are for fun and normal xp gain. You just look like an idiot/asshole for trying to optimize a public group in those manners.

[HanzzYolo]

"The main problem with TSK’s is that they are so hard to play, and so few people have the conviction to play them above level 20."

Writes the guide to level 28 then quits.

[Jimjam]

Some people do like Min/Maxing:) I don't knock you for playing purely for fashion reasons. Give me the same courtesy. I really don't understand why people hate players who enjoy maximizing their stats.

EDIT: Also, if you do plan on Min/Maxing stats by getting all BiS gear, Erudite is the best SK race due to having the highest INT. BiS Velious tank gear will not max INT on any race. But you do give up the Regen/FSI, which are also great.

Min Max? Erud then for that bonus MR.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Min Max? Erud then for that bonus MR.

Actually the Min/Max reason for Erudite is highest mana pool. With BiS Velious tank gear you will max all your tank stats and important resistances with buffs, but INT is the one thing you cannot max on any race with BiS Velious tank gear.

https://wiki.project1999.com/Magelo_Blue:EruditeSKMan - Made an example a while back showing one version of a BiS Erudite SK's stats. As you can see, the MR wouldn't really matter. Just swap one piece for a higher MR item, such as Living Thunder Earring instead of Earring of Living Flame, and you have max MR with Group Resist Magic. But even with all this gear INT is still at 233.

However, I do not recommend that kind of min/max for SK, because the other racial bonuses are generally more useful than max mana, and if you are planning on getting top tier raid gear, you will have Soul Defiler, which will fix your mana problems anyway.

[Gustoo]

Ya unfortunately I think the ogre for stun or troll iksar for regen are the best options.

It would be nice if erudite was the best race for something. Pre Kunark necro maybe.

[Jimjam]

Naw, Erud SK in Flayed Skin with the clicky attack sword from the bottom of the Hole and kithicor skelly shield is minmax.

Mobs faint just looking at the awesomeness.

[Pompous]

Stats in this game have very little value and STR/STA are both inevitable to cap if you're going to be getting into Velious raiding at all.

People overthink this shit and come to wild conclusions when in reality the only significant difference between races come down to QOL concerns like faction, size, active abilities like hide, and downtime reduction as with regen.

Don't make a race in EQ that you don't like the look of because even the 'technically correct' min/max answers are largely irrelevant once you have end game gear and the downsides of picking a giant race that gets stuck on everything are understated.

Ogre frontal stun immunity is more a QOL thing than actually powerful, regen is the only substantial racial ability in the game that has a real impact on your play and even that falls off in importance once you're doing full group and raid content on anything but a Necromancer.

[unsunghero]

I always thought TSK’s looked awesome in plate

One of my fond early memories of EQ as a kid was playing my shitty human monk in blackburrow and seeing a TSK in full plate tanking a train of gnolls saving everyone’s ass. I thought that was the coolest looking thing back then

I’m just curious, how well can TSK solo if mildly geared? (Say maybe something like ebon mace + fbss + some cheap plate with stats) and if it requires fear kiting outdoor mobs later on that is ok

Versus how much better could a monk similarly twinked solo? Is it close or are monks much better (keep in mind this would be vs an SK fear kiting)

If anyone is still checkin this, no biggie

[Fammaden]

Warriors will envy your damage output.

Riiiiiight.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

I always thought TSK’s looked awesome in plate

One of my fond early memories of EQ as a kid was playing my shitty human monk in blackburrow and seeing a TSK in full plate tanking a train of gnolls saving everyone’s ass. I thought that was the coolest looking thing back then

I’m just curious, how well can TSK solo if mildly geared? (Say maybe something like ebon mace + fbss + some cheap plate with stats) and if it requires fear kiting outdoor mobs later on that is ok

Versus how much better could a monk similarly twinked solo? Is it close or are monks much better (keep in mind this would be vs an SK fear kiting)

If anyone is still checkin this, no biggie

Troll Shadowknights can solo pretty well with decent gear. I mostly soloed guards from 25-55 with basically an Ebon Mace + FBSS and decent plate in the rest of my slots. I did have a Ceremonial Iksar Chestplate in the 40s for some extra regen for faster kill speed, but if you kill guards from 25-55 you will get a good amount of plat. Also get an Embalmer's Skinning Knife. Great way to get some HP back after a fight, and is cheaper than Iksar Chestplate if you don't have a ton of cash. Having both is preferable, at least until you get your Clicky Heal Breastplate from Velious.

EDIT: The nice thing about Shadowknights vs. Monks when it comes to soloing with cheap twinking is Shadowknights have access to cheaper healing items (Ceremonial Iksar Chestplate + Embalmers Skinning Knife). Monks are restricted to Fungi Tunic or Velious Clicky Chest, which generally means Monks need more plat to twink. Not saying Monks can't solo without Fungi Tunic, but I generally feel this makes Shadowknights a good contender if you are deciding between the two. I haven't seen any side by side comparisons to see how a Monk's generally higher DPS and additional evasion counteract this when it comes to soloing with decent twink gear. Obviously if you have a ton of money to spend a Monk will solo better with Fungi + CoF and great monk weapons.

[Gustoo]

Monks mend is really strong once it starts working reliably. Also doesn't their bind wound skill cap higher in both eras?

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Monks mend is really strong once it starts working reliably. Also doesn't their bind wound skill cap higher in both eras?

Oh yeah don't get me wrong, Monks are great. The question is mostly which class solos better with cheap gear, and I would say Shadowknights do a bit better with cheap gear as opposed to monks. This is because Shadowknights have better solo utility with their spells, and they can get overall better gear than a Monk when working within a budget.

Once you get to level 50+ and you start getting better gear, Monks will tend to pull ahead. However, they still have less utility than a Shadowknight, and more restrictions on how much they can carry (which can be annoying for platinum generation).

My Shadowknight has out-parsed Monks with cheap gear before too hehe.

[Brut]

Guide instructing to go exp in Oasis. Disgusting.

[Naethyn]

I want to see a human SK with growth armor and a tunare blade. (because paladin's can't get it, but war and sk can)

[ShampooChicken]

This was my main guide back in the day. Troll Shadowknight was my main character, had an absolute blast. Thanks for finding it again, I haven't read it in 20 years.

[starkind]

Players are not hated for minmaxing per se. Minmaxers are hated for:

being obnoxious gits about it,
refusing to group classes/races that have not received their MinMaxSealOfApproval[tm],
being obnoxious gits about it,
demanding "perfect" size & composition of their groups,
being obnoxious gits about it,
framing all in-game social interaction in terms of their personal "perfection" in race/class/gear choices,
being obnoxious gits about it.


This is silly, because nobody here is obnoxious about Min/Maxing (not that I have seen anyway). If you start discussing specifics of game mechanics, there IS a right and wrong answer. The right answer needs to be uncovered for Min/Max builds to work correctly. Otherwise, you do not Min/Max due to faulty information. I think you are just misinterpreting mechanic discussions.

If there are players out there who don't group with Human Monks because they aren't Iksars, for example, I agree with you they are idiots hehe.
lol people are so obnoxious about it they won't (or cant) play this game without certain itemization

gratz bladefrenzy

[Naethyn]

Looking cool matters way more than people think.

[Jimjam]

Looking cool matters way more than people think.

Case study: I had a monk in Bristlesilk (essentially vendor bought cloth stats but with Velious appearance). Got loads of groups.

Upgraded to an armour that was leather stats but + magic resists and looked like cloth ... group rejections specifically cos i appeared badly geared.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

lol people are so obnoxious about it they won't (or cant) play this game without certain itemization

gratz bladefrenzy

Honestly I have never seen these "obnoxious" people, and I have grouped with a lot of random people. Bladefrenzy is a good example, but he is the exception, rather than the rule. Ninja looting/improper looting is pretty rare, as it gets actively punished. I have only seen that happen a handful of times, and they were swiftly dealt with by the GMs.

But to play devils advocate, let's say I just got lucky and never found these people. My original point still stands: We should be clear about the facts of the game, as it helps everybody, including Min/Maxers. People shouldn't feel bad if they are wrong about game mechanics when discussing them. There is a right and wrong answer to how game mechanics work, and there is no reason to obfuscate the truth. Being wrong isn't a bad thing, and it leads to proper understanding of the game.

[Danth]

We should be clear about the facts of the game

That's why these discussions tend to involve a lot of people arguing past each other. You can min-max all you want in this game yet at the same time it's a loosely-tuned game where conventional min-maxing is largely unnecessary. Both sides can be (and are) right at the same time and that leads to the endless circular discussions.

Or, perhaps, true min-maxing in this game takes a different direction than it usually does in this genre. Having the right click items or proc weapons or knowing the oddities of pathing or Z axis glitches matters dramatically more than a few stat points or what race a person picked.

Danth

[DeathsSilkyMist]

That's why these discussions tend to involve a lot of people arguing past each other. You can min-max all you want in this game yet at the same time it's a loosely-tuned game where conventional min-maxing is largely unnecessary. Both sides can be (and are) right at the same time and that leads to the endless circular discussions.

Or, perhaps, true min-maxing in this game takes a different direction than it usually does in this genre. Having the right click items or proc weapons or knowing the oddities of pathing or Z axis glitches matters dramatically more than a few stat points or what race a person picked.

Danth

The fact that Min/Maxing isn't absolutely necessary in this game is irrelevant. People should still be able to get the correct facts about the game so they can play how they want. If its fun for someone to play the best tuned race for their class, they should know what race that is, without reading tons of pages of misinformation.

Two sides can't be correct when it comes to how the game works. It either works a certain way or it doesn't. I am not sure what kind of example you have in mind for two sides being right about how a game mechanic works. The only scenario I can think of is if two people have partial understanding of a mechanic, so they both have part of it correct. But I don't remember seeing that on this forum.

[Danth]

Think you mis-interpreted. The "both sides are right" comment refers to it being reality in this game that there's a best choice but that best choice quite often confers such a minuscule advantage as to be superfluous in practice. New-to-P99'ers are commonly trained to min-max by other games and ask about whats "best" out of habit without realizing that this isn't the kind of game where they necessarily have to adopt such a mentality. So I try to add that disclaimer, where appropriate.

Yes, it's true--I've run into players who genuinely believed that non-ogres are wholly incapable of casting spells while being attacked, or that half-elf druids could never gain enough mana to quad because of their low default wisdom. I've met people who believed a dark elf warrior could never be a raid tank, or who truly thought most groups were going to care if their paladin was a high elf instead of a dwarf. I'm addressing that bunch. You're more focused on hobbyist character planners so our purpose differs somewhat.

Danth

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Think you mis-interpreted. The "both sides are right" comment refers to it being reality in this game that there's a best choice but that best choice quite often confers such a minuscule advantage as to be superfluous in practice. New-to-P99'ers are commonly trained to min-max by other games and ask about whats "best" out of habit without realizing that this isn't the kind of game where they necessarily have to adopt such a mentality. So I try to add that disclaimer, where appropriate.

Yes, it's true--I've run into players who genuinely believed that non-ogres are wholly incapable of casting spells while being attacked, or that half-elf druids could never gain enough mana to quad because of their low default wisdom. I've met people who believed a dark elf warrior could never be a raid tank, or who truly thought most groups were going to care if their paladin was a high elf instead of a dwarf. I'm addressing that bunch. You're more focused on hobbyist character planners so our purpose differs somewhat.

Danth

Ah I see. Yes adding disclaimers is fine, I do that as well when it is appropriate.

I just want to make sure the correct info is out there. You don't do this, but I get tired of people just saying "play whatever". People should know the min max options are if thats how they like to play, for example. Just like people should know what fashion you can get if you prefer playing that way.

There is an odd animosity towards people who enjoy Min/Maxing on P99 that I just cannot properly fathom. I like the itemization in this game, for example, and my primary focus for enjoyment is on that, with fashion being second.

[sajbert]

Hmm, considering making an SK instead of a Monk once I at least got a fungi going.

Was thinking a Troll and maybe female, but how do helms look on troll females? Does the velious graphics work?

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Hmm, considering making an SK instead of a Monk once I at least got a fungi going.

Was thinking a Troll and maybe female, but how do helms look on troll females? Does the velious graphics work?

Female Trolls are probably one of the rarest race/sex combinations in the game, so that would be awesome. Their helm does look pretty cool in my opinion.

https://i.imgur.com/jUGywjH.jpg

Troll is a great race for SK due to having extra regen, slam, and also the ability to still use Blood Ember armor. Best solo race in my opinion.

To determine whether you want to make a Monk or a Shadowknight, simply ask yourself if you want to raid a lot. A monk will work better as a raider. A Shadowknight is great for solo/group play, but sadly useless in raids lol.

[Jimjam]

Transparency doesn’t work great in p1999, this is pretty well discussed for the female erudite crown, i’m worried a similar issue may exist for the female troll visor...

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Transparency doesn’t work great in p1999, this is pretty well discussed for the female erudite crown, i’m worried a similar issue may exist for the female troll visor...

I've seen the troll female custom hat in game. I don't remember seeing any serious transparency issues. Looked good imo, very unique.

Only downside to female trolls is their animation set isn't as good as male trolls, who have the best animation set in the game. Male troll animations look way more dynamic and interesting than most of the human looking races, which tend to look like they have sticks up their butts:)

[ShampooChicken]

It's weird how almost everyone seems to be focused on things that make the game easier. For me one of the charms about EQ, and about evil races/classes especially, were the challenge factor and uniqueness.

In beta storebought chainmail or bronze armor was often the best we could do, and a non-magic weapon. Still had tons of fun, figuring out how to get on the boat in Freeport or gaining favor in High Pass. It was all about the early game and adventure, leveling was slow, dying was even more painful, nobody would give you any free stuff. We felt cool after finally completing our leather set from our froglok money, or getting our first big weapon from the shop. It was even more necessary to group since everyone's equipment was so poor.

[Malrubius]

It's weird how almost everyone seems to be focused on things that make the game easier. For me one of the charms about EQ, and about evil races/classes especially, were the challenge factor and uniqueness.

In beta storebought chainmail or bronze armor was often the best we could do, and a non-magic weapon. Still had tons of fun, figuring out how to get on the boat in Freeport or gaining favor in High Pass. It was all about the early game and adventure, leveling was slow, dying was even more painful, nobody would give you any free stuff. We felt cool after finally completing our leather set from our froglok money, or getting our first big weapon from the shop. It was even more necessary to group since everyone's equipment was so poor.

I agree, and I lean towards that aspect of the game too. But at the same time, there are two sides to it as DSM and Danth were discussing.

To your first sentence, I'd point out that we all strive make the game easier. We even did so from day one in 1999 when we were looking for better gear, spells, skills, knowledge, etc. That chain and bronze made us get hit for less.

That's not to say we're all minmaxers, because we're not. I'm definitely not, and play more for the nostalgia and the sense of adventure you described. Yet I still find the conversations about minmaxing interesting and can, vaguely at least :) , see why it appeals to some.