TEAMS pvp, Please?

[Baler]

May we please get some word from big Rog Dog about the Teams PVP situation?

That's the future of p99,..

#NOCSR

[Old_PVP]

Teams99 is where its at. My sig sums it up.

Make everyone fight in rags for a while too... TLP. The turf wars would be a thing of beauty.

[Baler]

Teams99 is where its at. My sig sums it up.

https://i.imgur.com/ejNggU4.jpg

[Jibartik]

countdown to teams99 thread https://www.project1999.com/forums/showthread.php?t=381858&page=35

[Baler]

p99 staff *watching thread like baler is the bad guy*

[reebz]

Teams is trash. I'll still plan and if your on my team Baler I'll treat you like the shit bag you are

[AenorVZ]

https://i.imgur.com/dIED6QU.png

[Tune]

why do people think teams is really going to help

A zerg guild is going to just flock to the same team.

only way to make the server fun is make it detrimental to zerg stuff.

make mobs scale in difficulty with more people on it

[Stasis01]

Well reds fucked no matter what because of velious and the time requirement to enter pvp no one will do that.

But if it was teams Kunark people would just show up and join a side for pvp. The loot doesn’t matter.

[Stasis01]

Teams is trash. I'll still plan and if your on my team Baler I'll treat you like the shit bag you are

Like anyone cares.

[Old_PVP]

why do people think teams is really going to help

A zerg guild is going to just flock to the same team.

First we need warm bodies to make a zerg, which is the single biggest problem for PVP servers. No warm bodies.

How do we get warm bodies you ask? We need bluebies. Bluebies aren't completely averse to PVP, however they want "safe zones" that a Teams environment would bring. Give the people what they want. PVP servers don't prosper for very long without fresh meat (bluebies).

[Tune]

First we need warm bodies to make a zerg, which is the single biggest problem for PVP servers. No warm bodies.

How do we get warm bodies you ask? We need bluebies. Bluebies aren't completely averse to PVP, however they want "safe zones" that a Teams environment would bring. Give the people what they want. PVP servers don't prosper for very long without fresh meat (bluebies).

safe zones? meaning every1 is on the same team? lol

like how is that different than a blue server

[Old_PVP]

safe zones? meaning every1 is on the same team? lol

like how is that different than a blue server

No. I put "safe zones" in quotes for a reason. It doesn't mean these zones are safe and one would be immune from PVP...LOL! It just gives the illusion of safety to potential bluebie levelers out there. Zones on any Team based server tend to be controlled by certain teams based on geographical location. For example, the Good team on old school Sullon Zek controlled Everfrost / Permafrost. Why? because barbarians were Good. Other dungeons are even more obvious. Evils controlled Guk, cause it was in the Troll's backyard. Opposing teams can still go into any of these zones, but obviously there will be stiff resistance, given a strong server population. This gives bluebies a "safe" place to level, which may be deep within Team territory so they don't worry so much about PVP. No place should ever truly be safe though, and the most determined killers might still get ya.

Customize the teams so they are completely balanced and it will be a server worth remembering.

[JayDee]

Teams only works with very high player count. Good luck convincing Rogaen with that one.. Current red population is not very encouraging and I don't think that's a major selling point to bluebies who you will most certainly need to convert.

[Gustoo]

Current state of red doesn't say much for the success or failure rate of a red 2.0 whether its teams or not teams.

I strongly prefer actual rallos zek rules by a huge mountain landslide,

But custom 2 teams sullon rules would work for me too, to be a substantial change from red 1.0

[Old_PVP]

Teams only works with very high player count.

The same could be said about any server really. High player count usually leads to a better server, whether its Teams or FFA or strictly PVE. What type of ruleset will attract the most players? That should be the end game goal... how can we get the most warm bodies, while still having PVP enabled?

History has shown that Teams work. Original EverQuest had ~40 servers... only 4 ended up having PVP enabled... therefore ~10% of the EQ population cared enough about PVP to actually play on one. And this was back in the day, when PVP was awesome!

3 out of 4 of those PVP servers were TEAM servers. It saddens me to report that only ~2.5% of the total EverQuest population played on Rallos Zek (FFA) by the time Team servers were options.

If you take a look at Project 1999 statistics... we follow this trend pretty closely. Roughly 1,000 population on Green. Roughly 500 population left on Blue. 50 or so regularly playing Red. We make up about 3% of the P99 population.

TEAMS might be the solution. We might at least get 10-20% of the total population with Teams.

[torr071]

teams would work on p99.
diety based was hella fun.
because they the only ones that would not do ridiculous p2w schemes.
2021 has been alot of just bad team pvp releases.

eq2 teams pvp..p2w (and NO ONE ASKED FOR EQ2!)
aion classic team pvp p2w squared.
crowfall..makin the koreans feel cheap p2w style
new world .. p2w and has a HR pvp environment where they trigger their testers to uncover political bias and 'report' players 'bias' for bannings. worst pvp crowd in history.


just HUGE disappointments so far in team pvp genre. p99 diety pvp would go far.

[Gustoo]

Diety doesn't make sense unless you use it as a red vs blue indicator and use it to indicate the starting city and stuff.

Not sure how I feel about all races / classes being available to each team vs the slightly more nuanced teams Nilbog made in east vs west in Old PVP's sig.

At least no one could claim it wasn't balanced, but it also makes it less interesting.

I don't care if it tanks in a year or two or three, it just needs to be new and fun for vanilla and kunark and probably hopefully never go to velious and preferably never even go to kunark imo.

[Tune]

teams does nothing but give people the ability to troll their own team

[torr071]

Diety doesn't make sense unless you use it as a red vs blue indicator and use it to indicate the starting city and stuff.

Not sure how I feel about all races / classes being available to each team vs the slightly more nuanced teams Nilbog made in east vs west in Old PVP's sig.

At least no one could claim it wasn't balanced, but it also makes it less interesting.

I don't care if it tanks in a year or two or three, it just needs to be new and fun for vanilla and kunark and probably hopefully never go to velious and preferably never even go to kunark imo.

Gustoo,
Ive played diety, I was there. it had a population that was larger than any server in EQ at the time (including Povar), and Smedley ended it for whatever his petty non business related reasons.
That said, I've been playin most mmo pvp games since. in regards to EQ the 2 teams version died, but had a life slightly better than FFA. which was what killed all of EQ pvp when Smedley decided to roll all pvp onto the least popular rules server, basically ending pvp. cause Smedley hated pvp.. Brad liked it, and thus you understand EQ politics.

deity pvp there are 3 teams (good/neut/evil), so much like DAoC.. one of very few pvp games where you need to be always watchful of the AssJam from the 3rd team.

So we can theorize all day and night, but the fact exists that the diety server was the most popular server ever made for EQ, more popular than anything anyone had created up to that time in any game. Everything else non team eq pvp created has not held a candle to that server, not even close. So yeah theres a good reason people keep saying bring back diety pvp... it had the numbers.
Theres 1 game like diety pvp and thats DAoC..and thats popular enough to run 2 versions atm (live and phoenix) with thousands online in both after 20 years.
not a single ffa pvp has had a run like that. our EQ diety server today might still be active if not for smedley being smedley.

[Gustoo]

Are you actually talking about making a sullon zek server with good neutral and evil?

Player count is not relevant. There hadn't been a NEW pvp server on live everquest for years when Sullon launched, it was a great opportunity to start fresh on a PVP server and everquest was at peak popularity at the time. It makes sense that it got a lot of players. That doesn't speak to the virtue of diety teams at all.

For a non item loot ruleset, I do think that the sullon style unlimited PVP range is the best solution. Its not as good as item loot rallos style but its better than Red 99 or vallon / tallon no loot with limited pvp engagement range.

Sullon was the least balanced server ever by the time Live made "Zek" and "zek" was only made because all the servers were low pop, including sullon zek so they did what they had to. No one was happy about it. For me it didn't matter by then because I had quit and rallos ended when augments came out.

[torr071]

Merge of Rallos Zek, Sullon Zek, Tallon Zek and Vallon Zek (March 2005)

wanted to make sure we establish the family of Zeks, which became the failed FFA Zek.

Sullon was diety and the first to be ended, it wasnt merged.. it was ended.
The other 3 were merged. One of those was a 2 team server. All had differing rulesets to loot.
sullon was the least balanced you say? in what way? Each side had things the others did not. Thats like saying Wow was unbalanced, and then the crying twats got all the classes on all the teams, destroying a perfectly good game.
Diety is like that game, there is balance in working together and using your teams strengths..
there is no balance in equity, just like in life.

[torr071]

Player count is not relevant. There hadn't been a NEW pvp server on live everquest for years when Sullon launched, it was a great opportunity to start fresh on a PVP server and everquest was at peak popularity at the time. It makes sense that it got a lot of players. That doesn't speak to the virtue of diety teams at all.
.

1. pvp player count is lifeblood.. not relevant?
2. Sullon launched after SWG. Also ran by SOE. They knew how popular teams was after making SWG. Sullon launched after Raph Koster made his famous 'dont bring a knife to a gunfight' and nerfed TKM, basically ending SWG pvp. making Sullon king before launch.

Smedley ran both games, and hated brad. Sullon was extremely popular, but DAoC was coming. Smedley in infinite wisdom decides to not compete in mmo pvp and destroys all his pvp servers into 1 FFA Zek, the least popular ruleset. basically giving the genre to his SWG vs the incoming DAoC..which he loses his arse.
not sure if Marc Jacobs paid Smedley to do it either, there is a story.. lol.

[Gustoo]

Sullon had evil team win very early. Thats what I mean. I played there too. Good times, but I liked item loot better and in 2005 when the merge happened, I wasn't playing.

It was popular because it was a new opportunity, it got a lot of players. Just like any new red server here will be popular for a while. It isn't an indicator of the best ruleset. It can indicate many different things.

[torr071]

I played both og rallos and the loot version, never got far in either was always ganked at the newbie log for hours on end, fun, but yeah, that meme had an actual reality.

went to swg, came back for sullon release after the raph patch. played a newt. You say evil won, but they didnt, I was based in rivervale and the war was in highkeep when the server ended.
People bring up the diety server because of one thing..it never waned in popularity.

unlike every ffa mmo pvp created, which have ended. DAoC the 'sister' game to eq diety is still going. WARHammer would also still be going if they didnt end it.

[Stasis01]

The main problem is people don't want to grind out hours of boring content anymore.

Even with teams I bet it's a ghost town, but it would have been the best chance.

EQ is dead. Maybe, just maybe you have pvp at KC a few times a month kunark capped box due to easy access and gear isn't outrageous advantage, doubt it.

[Gustoo]

Stasis sometimes I feel the same way, but other people still have time and will to play. I was in college when project 1999 was new and could still find time. With a family and all the other responsibilities that come with being older, I agree that grinding a character to 60 old style while doing pvp battles and hours long corpse retrievals and stuff just may not happen for me.

But we can still hope for a good server for other people to play.

I don't think p99 can support 3 teams Torr, and I understand how you love it, just like everyone who played rallos loves it. Rallos had low level PVP that was fun and engaging like no other server. You just need to get a rogue to level 10 to start winning.

[Tradesonred]

why do people think teams is really going to help

A zerg guild is going to just flock to the same team.

only way to make the server fun is make it detrimental to zerg stuff.

make mobs scale in difficulty with more people on it

I mean i will come back to the forums just to laugh at the whole thing if they go with teams when it is obvious this will happen. It only takes like 10 no-life nerds to park alts in newb zones, clean the whole fucking zone, log off, wait 30 mins, kill everyone again to destroy the server's population.

[Tradesonred]

Merge of Rallos Zek, Sullon Zek, Tallon Zek and Vallon Zek (March 2005)

wanted to make sure we establish the family of Zeks, which became the failed FFA Zek.

Sullon was diety and the first to be ended, it wasnt merged.. it was ended.
The other 3 were merged. One of those was a 2 team server. All had differing rulesets to loot.
sullon was the least balanced you say? in what way? Each side had things the others did not. Thats like saying Wow was unbalanced, and then the crying twats got all the classes on all the teams, destroying a perfectly good game.
Diety is like that game, there is balance in working together and using your teams strengths..
there is no balance in equity, just like in life.

The problem is the levels of toxicity EQpvp emu attracts. You can put your hand in the fire once the griefers get a char or 2 to 50, they will hang in low level zones and one shot people 24/7 for lulz. You will get a box like red 1.0 in record time, lucky to get a 2 digit pop.

[Tradesonred]

First we need warm bodies to make a zerg, which is the single biggest problem for PVP servers. No warm bodies.

How do we get warm bodies you ask? We need bluebies. Bluebies aren't completely averse to PVP, however they want "safe zones" that a Teams environment would bring. Give the people what they want. PVP servers don't prosper for very long without fresh meat (bluebies).

This is how red staff was trolled into a hard population bleed. You had people when the server started telling the devs everything was fine with xp loss in pvp either because A) They got a kick out of "griefing people off the server". It was a meme all over the forums.
B) Guilds like Nihilum had all the reasons to say xp loss was fine because they wanted to raid unchallenged and some people like Nizzar were RMTing the loot.

The pop was obviously tanking because of xp loss, yet it took like a year to fix it and by then the damage was done. The devs were either falsely comforted by people who had either one of the interest i noted or didnt give a fuck or a mix of both.

It feels like groundhog's day with people pushing for teams. Its so obvious that once a few griefers reach 50, they will camp low level zones 24/7 and grief the fuck out of either people catching up in levels or people wanting to make alts. That will be your safe zone. Just making people lose xp and making them log off was enough of an incentive to fuel the griefers on red 1.0. Imagine letting them one shot anyone in a zone.

I feel like people pushing for teams are either trolling to get another depopulation fest with red 2.0 or they havent thought out the ramifications of the server ruleset well enough. Like ive repeated this for years and not once, someone replied and told me how the high levels camping low level zones thing would not happen.

[Old_PVP]

I feel like people pushing for teams are either trolling to get another depopulation fest with red 2.0 or they havent thought out the ramifications of the server ruleset well enough. Like ive repeated this for years and not once, someone replied and told me how the high levels camping low level zones thing would not happen.

Well let me be the first to dispel these false notions. There are many ways to curb this behavior. The most obvious are level caps for PVP. (adopting more of a Tallon / Vallon level range of PVP) I believe it was +/- 8 level range?

But... if we want that whole TOTAL WAR, scorched earth feel, which is awesome, then unrestricted PVP is the best. It is also the best way to deal with pesky OOR healers. So Sullon Zek style no level range would be best.

I saw many high level killings on Sullon Zek back in the day. Some fool would come into a lowbie zone, and shortly be forced to flee or die after getting swarmed by groups of noobs. Also, your own team's high levels would occasionally patrol low level areas, clearing out griefers.

However, if neither one of these things occur, then there are custom changes that could be implemented to put an end to that type of griefing:


Incentivize home defense style PVP. -custom titles, 1 item loot etc... would only apply to PVP by high lvls in lowbie areas, and only eligible to the defending team. (this also allows item loot to make an appearance, in a limited form.)
Yellow text "territory defense" broadcasts, alerting your team to the griefer.
Negative "res effects" or something similar to the griefer after repeated killings of the same person.
Sullon Zek token system or a custom point system - disincentivize lowbie killing by removing a token / points upon repeated killings.
Custom faction hits - the griefer will soon be hated by all the guards & npcs.


Obviously the server would need clearly defined team territory to make some of these custom changes plausible. This pic encapsulates it pretty well.

https://i.imgur.com/wz7wpjZ.png

[Tradesonred]

First thanks for the detailed response, we might get somewhere with this if devs read the feedback (I dont think they will lol)


I saw many high level killings on Sullon Zek back in the day. Some fool would come into a lowbie zone, and shortly be forced to flee or die after getting swarmed by groups of noobs. Also, your own team's high levels would occasionally patrol low level areas, clearing out griefers.

I dont think this will ever happen on red, the high levels giving a shit about their team. I could be wrong though. What im not wrong on, is the level range. On Rallos you could basically burn all your mana as a wiz on a 4 level range and barely dent his health. When you con'd a player and he came out red, that was the cue to go hide or gate. This will be worse with an 8 level range and basically invincibility for high level players with no level range. Thats what hit me immediately with WoW and why i said its a better pvp game. You could contribute to taking down a 52 hunter with your 27 priest if the hunter got cocky and got himself into a 3vs1 fight (real thing that happened to me). I remember on sullon you could nuke a red all day and nothing would happen, the guy can just stand there and take it. Perma resists, if i remember correctly.


However, if neither one of these things occur, then there are custom changes that could be implemented to put an end to that type of griefing:


Incentivize home defense style PVP. -custom titles, 1 item loot etc... would only apply to PVP by high lvls in lowbie areas, and only eligible to the defending team. (this also allows item loot to make an appearance, in a limited form.)
Yellow text "territory defense" broadcasts, alerting your team to the griefer.
Negative "res effects" or something similar to the griefer after repeated killings of the same person.
Sullon Zek token system or a custom point system - disincentivize lowbie killing by removing a token / points upon repeated killings.
Custom faction hits - the griefer will soon be hated by all the guards & npcs.




These are all good suggestions and i couldnt see the server working with at least something similar patched in. I would add that you cant camp in a hostile zone and if you disconnect, you have to wait 2-3h before being able to log back in again. Or something. Maybe some additional custom guards to secure the zones a bit more, too. But since P99 prides itself on no custom, fat chance any of this will happen.

[torr071]

on deity (sullon), when I played, like I said, I was a newt.
We held Rivervale, I was an erud wiz solro.
day's play entailed:
loggin into RV, finding out where the Call to Arms was (where the fight was..HighPass or Kithicor/Commons, or East Karana/Beholder). Always hoped for HighPass, most chaos guaranteed.
ran to action. if encountered enemies, /shout /loc and frenz came to rez and fight back enemies. was not in a guild btw, most werent, cept the madlad wreckin crews. We had a 6 boxing (in that day it was a feat 3 desktop, 3 laptop) ranger with 5 wiz trailin him always patrolling the karanas.
we had families of crazed trolls who lived to kill players who wandered near the water's edge in NK/WK zoneline (something bout trolls and a bridge, but they werent hi enuff to kill the qeynos guards to actually live under it yet).
the place was always poppin full of action, and toxicity wasnt a thing then, but you could call for help and people came.. fast.
cause if you killed someone they dropped medals to buy gear (that we never saw, they never implemented the vendors before the server ended).

you could not /hidecorpse thus monks hid in piles of bodies, very clever of them actually. so you aoe'd corpse piles!

so no, tradesonred. I been askin for deity to come back on EQ servers since the day they took it away. No change in my stance since then, no EQ has been even close to playable since playin on deity for me. No conspiracy here, straight been askin the same thing for almost 2 decades (while I play other games since they wont re-release the best version of eq).
and I know there a quite a few others who played deity server that feel the same way.

also as far as WoW.. Tigole and Furor can rot in hell for helpin a company who is owned by the CCP. i avoid talking of WoW, but i agree, the pvp was good, i was a warlord for horde on my server in the day. but i feel the dev team is traitorous to the country and honestly fueled and bred the current form of toxicity in gaming today and since they owned by the CCP(tencent) it was prolly planned.

[Tradesonred]

Have you played here? This isnt live. You have to pre-empt what the griefers are going to do and nip it in the bud or its a pretty much guaranteed fail.

[torr071]

Have you played here? This isnt live. You have to pre-empt what the griefers are going to do and nip it in the bud or its a pretty much guaranteed fail.

i only spoke of my exp on deity server. past tense.

but the exp is validity insofar as what can occur on a teams eq server, based on classic code.
ive also played on all but the 2 team server of eq (i was was swg/daoc/warhammer/wow by that time). and did dabble a bit on the single zek reformed. that is also past exp I have established in this thread, basically the meme of the newbie log grief camping. yeah that wasnt a meme, that was gameplay on an ffa eq servers. fun but not.
i agree, griefing is horrible to a community for pvp to thrive.

i dont pre-empt or fortell anything, just talk about what I have seen and exp and try to apply it to future decisions, yes.
imho of all the mmo pvp games i have played (since tanarus) the best community was the diety eq based one.

[Tradesonred]

i dont pre-empt or fortell anything, just talk about what I have seen and exp and try to apply it to future decisions, yes.
imho of all the mmo pvp games i have played (since tanarus) the best community was the diety eq based one.

I dont think you realise how bad the toxicity is here, was the point. Since weve seen it, it would be stupid to start a new server and not act on that experience.

They were consciously deceiving the devs, to be able to depopulate the server they were playing on, even though it was plainly obvious and inevitable that the outcome was going to be a dead server. Thats the kind of stupidity and toxicity coming from players you have to deal with here. If they fail to put brakes on those people, the server will fail. Simple as that.

[EatitNerd]

also as far as WoW.. Tigole and Furor can rot in hell for helpin a company who is owned by the CCP. i avoid talking of WoW, but i agree, the pvp was good, i was a warlord for horde on my server in the day. but i feel the dev team is traitorous to the country and honestly fueled and bred the current form of toxicity in gaming today and since they owned by the CCP(tencent) it was prolly planned.

Put the pipe down sir.