venomous axe or sarnak wh?

[dcortez]

Which is better aggro?

Venomous Axe of the Velium Brood or Sarnak Warhammer?

[Jimjam]

Warhams. Venemous axe is a good twink item for low levels. It lacks stun/slow/snare/ac debuff - the things that generate strong aggro against high hp mobs.

[SlankyLanky]

+1 for the warhammer. its a pretty great weapon especially for the price. i know some people dont like the graphic but i think its one of the cooler looking weapons. once the hammer starts to proc theres no reason to use axe over hammer.

[Snaggles]

Venom axe is 85 hate (or whatever the DD is). Sarnak warhammer is 400 plus if the stun lands it's a functional effect. Super underrated weapon, imho and I too like the look.

[Keebz]

If OP is lower level, under say 35, the venomous axe is better. Assuming main hand usage, at some point the DMG bonus will tip things in favor of the warhammer, but the ratio on the axe is slightly better while having a proc that works 46 levels sooner. If we're talking off hand, the axe will be better until the hammer procs at 46.

[Baler]

another +1 for at low levels venomous axe.

At higher levels I have seen the Sarnak Warhammer Proc used to peel agro back onto the tank, they switched to it for the proc then switched back to their normal weapons.

[Gustoo]

Veno axe so insane at low level its the main thing I absolutely love about velious.

[Botten]

So I read a while back here: https://forums.daybreakgames.com/eq/index.php?threads/p99-tank-section-info.251756/

Specifically this statement:
"The Threat on Dot weapons on P99 is insane because they have the old mechanics where each 'poison counter' has its own threat, so a 9 poison counter has way more threat than a 1 poison counter debuff."

....That possibly the aggro potentially generated from these two weapons procs could generate more threat than the warrior epic.

Infestation (https://wiki.project1999.com/Infestation)
Poisoned Whip (https://wiki.project1999.com/Poisoned_Whip)

My questions is... Has anyone ever seen the Poisoned Whip? I have been playing on P99 blue since 2011 and never seen one being sold

Even EQ Auction and p99 wiki doesn't have a record of it being sold once.

[SlankyLanky]

Veno axe so insane at low level its the main thing I absolutely love about velious.

i agree. its a great twink weapon. i used veno/yak combo before sarnak warhammer procced on my war and never had a huge problem keeping threat.

since OP wanted to know which was better for threat i guess i just assumed they were of a level that the hammer was able to proc, so to clarify my answer for OP the hammer is much better past 46, up until 46 you could use veno and most likely be fine depending on whats in the other hand.

warriors have a decent selection of proccing weapons in their mid to late levels with velious being out, almost any of the more well known ones will work just fine as long as you get a proc. war threat is kinda a rng game in groups especially where its very rare if anyone is going to hold on attacking till you say go ahead.

[Stonewallx39]

So I read a while back here: https://forums.daybreakgames.com/eq/index.php?threads/p99-tank-section-info.251756/

Specifically this statement:
"The Threat on Dot weapons on P99 is insane because they have the old mechanics where each 'poison counter' has its own threat, so a 9 poison counter has way more threat than a 1 poison counter debuff."

....That possibly the aggro potentially generated from these two weapons procs could generate more threat than the warrior epic.

Infestation (https://wiki.project1999.com/Infestation)
Poisoned Whip (https://wiki.project1999.com/Poisoned_Whip)

My questions is... Has anyone ever seen the Poisoned Whip? I have been playing on P99 blue since 2011 and never seen one being sold

Even EQ Auction and p99 wiki doesn't have a record of it being sold once.

I’ve been using the https://wiki.project1999.com/Wrapped_Entropy_Serpent_Spine extensively on my warrior (poison count 4 proc) and in my anecdotal evidence it doesn’t rip aggro any differently than a stun proc (like sarnak WH) or debuff (like frostbringer).

I think the 400 hate max change that was implemented on p99 is the reason why. Where all procs were capped at 400 hate for the spell component.

Green scales go for like 1.5 million plat (if they ever sell) for a reason…

[Snaggles]

The only reason a Venomous axe is "good threat" is that your melee damage is horrid in the low levels so a 84dd proc is a gamechanger. Hell at level 20 a cleric's smite is on par with all the best caster nukes. At level 60 that same proc is 2.8 dps on a 2 proc per minute average...essentially nothing.

In the low levels and some content threat simply doesnt matter much. Stuff is dying too quickly and the consequences aren't grave. DPS should still be dumping aggro if possible but too much aggro on a HK Noble is totally different than a raid mob or anything that can enrage. Just burn it down and keep pulling. Once stuff gets really nasty focus on the basic tier upgrades. This typically means a Frostbringer, something decent in the offhand (I used a Ykeshan War Club and then a Sarnak Warhammer). If you can loot an infestation throw that Frostbringer in the offhand and you're basically good until epics or ntov stuff.

In the higher levels and end gear you really should be balancing your setup (or at least one of them) for threat/aggro:

1.) Max haste cap per level cap: Every swing rolls your weapon ratio for melee threat. Per the wiki with a warrior if you are trying to keep aggro at 54 off a level 55 rogue it's going to be a chore. Double backstab and a 10% haste cap benefit. Another reason it's good to plan ahead for a worn haste upgrade. If you have an enchanter in your group they can do Wonderous Rapidity at level 58 but you are still under the haste cap without a 34/36% worn item at lvl 60 and thus you're doing less threat than you can simply by swinging without procs.
https://wiki.project1999.com/Haste_Guide
Haste Caps
Level Max total haste permitted
1-30 50%
31-50 74%
51-54 84%
55-59 94%
60 100%


2.) Pick high ratio weapons: Damage bonus scales so at 60 an infestation at 9/18 will pull in a bit more swing-threat than a frostbringer with a slightly better ratio of 12/22. This is why I want to pull my hair out when people are main-handing a WESS on blue in 2021 with a frostbringer in their offhand. Just swapping that combo will pick up about 14% threat in ratio alone...not to mention your offhand does not swing at a 1/1 ratio of the mainhand. Gear to try and do some damage; don't just pick proc aggro or you will be living in a perpetual fight of catching up via RNG dice rolls. Not to mention one of the huge perks of a warrior tank is they actually do damage.

3.) Pick quality procs: You get 400 hate for one of these effects whether it lands or not stun/slow/interupt/poison counter/blind/ac debuff/tash. Having 50 poison counters doesn’t matter anymore unless that comes with like 200/tick poison damage. A DD or actual damaging dot on top of one of those "threshold effects" is just frosting on the threat cake but only if it lands (no dd land = no aggro). Assuming the effect lands and goes past 400….A Frostbringer is about 450 threat; an ykesha proc is about 474; a Scepter of Destruction is 680...if any of those DD's resist you just get the 400. Landed dots will roll into tick dps threat as well. For what it's worth if you can pick a WESS to offhand or Trochilic's Skean or a sarnak warhammer I'd personally go with the sarnak because stun is actually helpful and you likely will keep it around for some reason.

Snare whips, DD's without a secondary component are sub 400 hate. If you need that effect or are trying to do a ton of low-aggro damage sure swap them in. They are just horrid for actual tanking stuff. If you can hold aggro with a snare whip proc your dps arent great or are walking on eggshells for you.

So in short: Cap haste, pick dps weapons with great aggro procs or at least decent dps ones with great aggro procs. Pray for RNG and let the dps die if the stuff is hard...that's on them. I'm skipping clickies and all the other stuff because this is already 500 words too long.

[Stonewallx39]

2.) Pick high ratio weapons: Damage bonus scales so at 60 an infestation at 9/18 will pull in a bit more swing-threat than a frostbringer with a slightly better ratio of 12/22. This is why I want to pull my hair out when people are main-handing a WESS on blue in 2021 with a frostbringer in their offhand. Just swapping that combo will pick up about 14% threat in ratio alone...not to mention your offhand does not swing at a 1/1 ratio of the mainhand. Gear to try and do some damage; don't just pick proc aggro or you will be living in a perpetual fight of catching up via RNG dice rolls. Not to mention one of the huge perks of a warrior tank is they actually do damage.

So in short: Cap haste, pick dps weapons with great aggro procs or at least decent dps ones with great aggro procs. Pray for RNG and let the dps die if the stuff is hard...that's on them. I'm skipping clickies and all the other stuff because this is already 500 words too long.

Okay everything that Snaggles said in his post was gold (frankly this should be added to the wiki as a Warrior aggro guide). The piece about the WESS in MH cracked me up, I ran across a couple warriors recently doing this and just shook my head. I tried to help them understand the futility of this setup but horses and water or something like that.

To the OP Snaggles last remarks sum it up.

Now someone add this to the wiki!

[Snaggles]

That's very kind of you! Only add me if there is a Wall of Shame or a Wall of Unsubstantiated Opinions :D .

[bradsamma]

I really wish people would stop using venomous axes for aggro. They suck for aggro.

Also WESS? Just about one of the most overrated items in the game. It's aggro is only soso yet it costs a TON. Any warrior over level 40 using a WESS should just put their armor in their backpacks.

[bobjonesp99]

The only reason a Venomous axe is "good threat" is that your melee damage is horrid in the low levels so a 84dd proc is a gamechanger. Hell at level 20 a cleric's smite is on par with all the best caster nukes. At level 60 that same proc is 2.8 dps on a 2 proc per minute average...essentially nothing.

In the low levels and some content threat simply doesnt matter much. Stuff is dying too quickly and the consequences aren't grave. DPS should still be dumping aggro if possible but too much aggro on a HK Noble is totally different than a raid mob or anything that can enrage. Just burn it down and keep pulling. Once stuff gets really nasty focus on the basic tier upgrades. This typically means a Frostbringer, something decent in the offhand (I used a Ykeshan War Club and then a Sarnak Warhammer). If you can loot an infestation throw that Frostbringer in the offhand and you're basically good until epics or ntov stuff.

In the higher levels and end gear you really should be balancing your setup (or at least one of them) for threat/aggro:

1.) Max haste cap per level cap: Every swing rolls your weapon ratio for melee threat. Per the wiki with a warrior if you are trying to keep aggro at 54 off a level 55 rogue it's going to be a chore. Double backstab and a 10% haste cap benefit. Another reason it's good to plan ahead for a worn haste upgrade. If you have an enchanter in your group they can do Wonderous Rapidity at level 58 but you are still under the haste cap without a 34/36% worn item at lvl 60 and thus you're doing less threat than you can simply by swinging without procs.
https://wiki.project1999.com/Haste_Guide
Haste Caps
Level Max total haste permitted
1-30 50%
31-50 74%
51-54 84%
55-59 94%
60 100%


2.) Pick high ratio weapons: Damage bonus scales so at 60 an infestation at 9/18 will pull in a bit more swing-threat than a frostbringer with a slightly better ratio of 12/22. This is why I want to pull my hair out when people are main-handing a WESS on blue in 2021 with a frostbringer in their offhand. Just swapping that combo will pick up about 14% threat in ratio alone...not to mention your offhand does not swing at a 1/1 ratio of the mainhand. Gear to try and do some damage; don't just pick proc aggro or you will be living in a perpetual fight of catching up via RNG dice rolls. Not to mention one of the huge perks of a warrior tank is they actually do damage.

3.) Pick quality procs: You get 400 hate for one of these effects whether it lands or not stun/slow/interupt/poison counter/blind/ac debuff/tash. Having 50 poison counters doesn’t matter anymore unless that comes with like 200/tick poison damage. A DD or actual damaging dot on top of one of those "threshold effects" is just frosting on the threat cake but only if it lands (no dd land = no aggro). Assuming the effect lands and goes past 400….A Frostbringer is about 450 threat; an ykesha proc is about 474; a Scepter of Destruction is 680...if any of those DD's resist you just get the 400. Landed dots will roll into tick dps threat as well. For what it's worth if you can pick a WESS to offhand or Trochilic's Skean or a sarnak warhammer I'd personally go with the sarnak because stun is actually helpful and you likely will keep it around for some reason.

Snare whips, DD's without a secondary component are sub 400 hate. If you need that effect or are trying to do a ton of low-aggro damage sure swap them in. They are just horrid for actual tanking stuff. If you can hold aggro with a snare whip proc your dps arent great or are walking on eggshells for you.

So in short: Cap haste, pick dps weapons with great aggro procs or at least decent dps ones with great aggro procs. Pray for RNG and let the dps die if the stuff is hard...that's on them. I'm skipping clickies and all the other stuff because this is already 500 words too long.

this post is helpful but i had a few questions to add on top of this.

afaik the formula for those spell effects like stun/slow/etc is hate=min(400,mob_hp/15). per your post, does this not apply for the snare effect?

are you certain that the DD/DoT damage component doesnt count as hate if it is resisted? afaik the hate does count for the spell effect even if it is resisted.

last question, does the DoT damage component count as hate over time, or is it applied all on the initial effect?

[Snaggles]

this post is helpful but i had a few questions to add on top of this.

afaik the formula for those spell effects like stun/slow/etc is hate=min(400,mob_hp/15). per your post, does this not apply for the snare effect?

are you certain that the DD/DoT damage component doesnt count as hate if it is resisted? afaik the hate does count for the spell effect even if it is resisted.

last question, does the DoT damage component count as hate over time, or is it applied all on the initial effect?

In practice magic based snare is marginal aggro. I'm not sure the literal metrics behind it but even with a ranger trying to peel and hold aggro with it is very difficult instead of Flame Lick.

Similarly resisted DD just dont generate a lot of aggro; I understand it's basically one-for-one point. My mage doesnt even raise an eyebrow off the pet with a resisted nuke whereas a full couple DD's in a row will often cause issues.

IIRC the initial poison/disease counters will give you a lump-sum (400) along with whatever the initial DD is, dot damage per tick is essentially just direct damage aggro. A magic-based dot like the Tunare whip is extremely low aggro but it is something since you are picking up like 8dps as it rolls. It's just not anywhere in the same universe as a Blade of the Black Dragon Eye or Feverblade.

I'm lacking the code or parsing to prove most of my opinions here. I've witnessed it personally and read similar findings from forum peers. Perhaps too much bias but for napkin math it all seems to work in practice. If I had a warrior still I'd always have a snare whip, I just wouldnt put it in my aggro weapon setup unless the functional effect was needed.

[Botten]

DamageHitInfo my_hit;
// calculate attack_skill and skillinuse depending on hand and weapon
// also send Packet to near clients
my_hit.skill = AttackAnimation(Hand, weapon);
LogCombat("Attacking with [{}] in slot [{}] using skill [{}]", weapon ? weapon->GetItem()->Name : "Fist", Hand, my_hit.skill);

// Now figure out damage
my_hit.damage_done = 1;
my_hit.min_damage = 0;
uint8 mylevel = GetLevel() ? GetLevel() : 1;
uint32 hate = 0;
if (weapon)
hate = (weapon->GetItem()->Damage + weapon->GetItem()->ElemDmgAmt);

my_hit.base_damage = GetWeaponDamage(other, weapon, &hate);
if (hate == 0 && my_hit.base_damage > 1)
hate = my_hit.base_damage;

//if weapon damage > 0 then we know we can hit the target with this weapon
//otherwise we cannot and we set the damage to -5 later on
if (my_hit.base_damage > 0) {
// if we revamp this function be more general, we will have to make sure this isn't
// executed for anything BUT normal melee damage weapons from auto attack
if (Hand == EQ::invslot::slotPrimary || Hand == EQ::invslot::slotSecondary)
my_hit.base_damage = DoDamageCaps(my_hit.base_damage);
auto shield_inc = spellbonuses.ShieldEquipDmgMod + itembonuses.ShieldEquipDmgMod + aabonuses.ShieldEquipDmgMod;
if (shield_inc > 0 && HasShieldEquiped() && Hand == EQ::invslot::slotPrimary) {
my_hit.base_damage = my_hit.base_damage * (100 + shield_inc) / 100;
hate = hate * (100 + shield_inc) / 100;
}

This seems to state hate can be gained by wearing a shield; perhaps the amount of AC on the shield also plays a factor on more hate generation? Could this be correct?

[DeathsSilkyMist]

DamageHitInfo my_hit;
// calculate attack_skill and skillinuse depending on hand and weapon
// also send Packet to near clients
my_hit.skill = AttackAnimation(Hand, weapon);
LogCombat("Attacking with [{}] in slot [{}] using skill [{}]", weapon ? weapon->GetItem()->Name : "Fist", Hand, my_hit.skill);

// Now figure out damage
my_hit.damage_done = 1;
my_hit.min_damage = 0;
uint8 mylevel = GetLevel() ? GetLevel() : 1;
uint32 hate = 0;
if (weapon)
hate = (weapon->GetItem()->Damage + weapon->GetItem()->ElemDmgAmt);

my_hit.base_damage = GetWeaponDamage(other, weapon, &hate);
if (hate == 0 && my_hit.base_damage > 1)
hate = my_hit.base_damage;

//if weapon damage > 0 then we know we can hit the target with this weapon
//otherwise we cannot and we set the damage to -5 later on
if (my_hit.base_damage > 0) {
// if we revamp this function be more general, we will have to make sure this isn't
// executed for anything BUT normal melee damage weapons from auto attack
if (Hand == EQ::invslot::slotPrimary || Hand == EQ::invslot::slotSecondary)
my_hit.base_damage = DoDamageCaps(my_hit.base_damage);
auto shield_inc = spellbonuses.ShieldEquipDmgMod + itembonuses.ShieldEquipDmgMod + aabonuses.ShieldEquipDmgMod;
if (shield_inc > 0 && HasShieldEquiped() && Hand == EQ::invslot::slotPrimary) {
my_hit.base_damage = my_hit.base_damage * (100 + shield_inc) / 100;
hate = hate * (100 + shield_inc) / 100;
}

This seems to state hate can be gained by wearing a shield; perhaps the amount of AC on the shield also plays a factor on more hate generation? Could this be correct?

If you got that from the normal EQEMU code, there is no way to know if the P99 dev's have kept this part of the code the same, or customized it. The server side code for P99 has been customized quite a bit, and is not open source as far as I know.

[bobjonesp99]

In practice magic based snare is marginal aggro. I'm not sure the literal metrics behind it but even with a ranger trying to peel and hold aggro with it is very difficult instead of Flame Lick.

Similarly resisted DD just dont generate a lot of aggro; I understand it's basically one-for-one point. My mage doesnt even raise an eyebrow off the pet with a resisted nuke whereas a full couple DD's in a row will often cause issues.

IIRC the initial poison/disease counters will give you a lump-sum (400) along with whatever the initial DD is, dot damage per tick is essentially just direct damage aggro. A magic-based dot like the Tunare whip is extremely low aggro but it is something since you are picking up like 8dps as it rolls. It's just not anywhere in the same universe as a Blade of the Black Dragon Eye or Feverblade.

I'm lacking the code or parsing to prove most of my opinions here. I've witnessed it personally and read similar findings from forum peers. Perhaps too much bias but for napkin math it all seems to work in practice. If I had a warrior still I'd always have a snare whip, I just wouldnt put it in my aggro weapon setup unless the functional effect was needed.

so if DoT counts as a DD in terms of aggro generation, then Chelaki Tail wtih Strong Disease should be really good for.

[Snaggles]

so if DoT counts as a DD in terms of aggro generation, then Chelaki Tail wtih Strong Disease should be really good for.

Yea it’s really the poison or disease counters more than the damage. A DD without a debuff or slight stun isn’t much aggro nor is a pure damage dot (like a Bloodfire). Either way you can meet that 400ish threshold and focus on damage and delay.

[bobjonesp99]

Yea it’s really the poison or disease counters more than the damage. A DD without a debuff or slight stun isn’t much aggro nor is a pure damage dot (like a Bloodfire). It obviously helps but only to a point.

I’m not sure where green is but there was a time when the debuff like items on a prob were cumulative, even down to each counter. These days on blue most aggro rated weapons do approximately the same proc aggro. The nerf has given more value in actual weapons that do actual things rather than silly weapons like the WESS which just arbitrarily met the criteria. Once you get that initial aggro threshold it’s about ratio, speed and practical effects.

i understand the changes about aggro. what i mean is that if all aggro is limited to 400 + dd/dot component, and if dot damage counts the same as dd damage (in that the aggro generated is equal to the entire dot duration damage when the spell initially lands) then the strong disease proc would make that whip one of, if not, the best aggro weapons in the game. the 3 damage per tick for 15 minutes (150 ticks) means that, in addition to the poison counter aggro limit of 400, the dot damage component would be an additional 450, which is better than the epic and/or blade of the black dragon eye. all that said, it might NOT be the case as well; if the dot aggro is generated as the damage is received (i.e. only 3 per tic for 15 minutes) then its actually not significantly better for aggro generation.