Monk ability:Stonestance

[Rais]

Stonestance isn't working as it was before the patch. I can post before and after. The Before, is off a lvl 46 NPC in Chardok

The max hit that his npc has done to me that I can see in my logs is:126
The max hit with stonestance on was:15.

This is just to show the difference in Max without stonestance, and Max with.

[Fri May 20 00:41:11 2011] A sarnak janissary hits YOU for 126 points of damage.


[Fri May 20 01:18:36 2011] Your body becomes one with the earth.
[Fri May 20 01:18:36 2011] A sarnak janissary hits YOU for 8 points of damage.
[Fri May 20 01:18:36 2011] A sarnak janissary hits YOU for 5 points of damage.
[Fri May 20 01:18:39 2011] A sarnak janissary hits YOU for 15 points of damage.
[Fri May 20 01:18:39 2011] A sarnak janissary hits YOU for 7 points of damage.
[Fri May 20 01:18:41 2011] A sarnak janissary kicks YOU for 1 point of damage.
[Fri May 20 01:18:41 2011] A sarnak janissary hits YOU for 15 points of damage.
[Fri May 20 01:18:44 2011] A sarnak janissary hits YOU for 15 points of damage.
[Fri May 20 01:18:47 2011] A sarnak janissary hits YOU for 10 points of damage.
[Fri May 20 01:18:49 2011] A sarnak janissary hits YOU for 5 points of damage.
[Fri May 20 01:18:49 2011] You are no longer one with the earth..



After the patch with stonestance, before/during stonestance tonight. The fight didn't last long after I popped stonestance.I'm sure if the fight went on, it still would have hit me for the max before stonestance was enabled.


[Mon May 30 23:09:30 2011] A phantom tries to hit YOU, but misses!
[Mon May 30 23:09:30 2011] A phantom hits YOU for 68 points of damage.
[Mon May 30 23:09:30 2011] A phantom hits YOU for 40 points of damage.
[Mon May 30 23:09:30 2011] A phantom bashes YOU for 50 points of damage.
[Mon May 30 23:09:38 2011] A phantom bashes YOU for 50 points of damage.
[Mon May 30 23:09:54 2011] A phantom hits YOU for 56 points of damage.
[Mon May 30 23:10:01 2011] Your body becomes one with the earth.
[Mon May 30 23:10:03 2011] A phantom hits YOU for 43 points of damage.
[Mon May 30 23:10:04 2011] A phantom hits YOU for 42 points of damage.
[Mon May 30 23:10:07 2011] A phantom hits YOU for 40 points of damage.
[Mon May 30 23:10:11 2011] A phantom hits YOU for 45 points of damage.
[Mon May 30 23:10:14 2011] A phantom hits YOU for 48 points of damage.
[Mon May 30 23:10:14 2011] A phantom hits YOU for 40 points of damage.
[Mon May 30 23:10:16 2011] You are no longer one with the earth..

[h0tr0d (shaere)]

Yeah I don't recall, but it seems mitigation, or a change to how AC works could explain how we get hit for more, and hit mobs for less regarding disciplines or just normal melee.

But you are right, stonestance is pretty much no longer a viable option for me.

[Treats]

STONE STANCE (Level 51): When using this discipline, the monk will take roughly 1/3rd damage from most physical attacks. This discipline lasts for 12 seconds, and has a base reuse time of 12 minutes. The reuse time for this discipline will decrease as the monk gains additional levels.

Thats taken from the EQ manual Supplement found here:

https://www.project1999.org/forums/showthread.php?t=26867

Something does seem a little off with it. From Rais's log post patch vs the phantom with Stonestance on looks like he should be being hit for 10-20 damage or so.

[Versus]

This should be looked into further. I'll try to dig up some info...Pre-patch I think the mitigation was 90%. And I think (?) I remember reading that statistic elsewhere as well. Even if it is only supposed to be "one third," that isn't the case at the moment.

[Azzbad]

The problem is the NPC min dmg hit is being applied instead of the 90% mitigation of the hit. This was tested on Uthgaard-spawned mobs and I assume he has all the info needed to fix this.

[kanras]

There was a post two pages back on this that I already answered. Please use search before posting in the future.

You're misunderstanding what portion of melee damage is mitigated by disciplines. This is a bug fix. See patch notes re:defensive.

[h0tr0d (shaere)]

You're misunderstanding what portion of melee damage is mitigated by disciplines. This is a bug fix. See patch notes re:defensive.

I did read it, but what was the portion then that is mitigated? I remember Stonestance as a much more viable option and now, eh.

I also note in classic and kunark I could tank mobs. I could tank fire giants fine, better then a warrior most times as my avoidance meant more then their ac. Now I can't even tank a LDC at 60 without needing 2 complete heals. I feel like a paper tank, or rangers pre kunark, and it isn't right.

[Azzbad]

Stonestance is broken. See below.....or should the disc actually make npc dps greater? notice the BASH damage...................................?

Stonestance was used to position npcs like tormax, AoW, NTOV dragons. It is *not* working as intended.


http://img9.imageshack.us/img9/5592/stonestancerocks.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/9/stonestancerocks.jpg/)

Uploaded with ImageShack.us (http://imageshack.us)

[Structures_Fall]

How is this not being addressed? This is a major issue. Where are the patch notes that say stonestance is anything other than 90% mitigation? Also...disc timers are messed...

[Rais]

The disc timers are correct. When kunark came out you could only use one till the timer was done. And they were on different timers.

As to stonestnce ..yea.

[baalzy]

If I understand this correctly.

Previously, mob damage was calculated and then defensive/stonestance were reducing the end number by whatever %.

The way they should have worked (and supposedly work now, if i understand this correctly) is the mobs damage (not counting damage bonus) should be calculated, reduced by whatever % and then the damage bonus for the mob added. This is how much damage you should have taken.

Take a mob with a max damage of 100 and a minimum damage of 21. This means they have a damage bonus of 20 and a variable damage range of 1-80. They perform their attack and the calculation for their damage is performed. Let's say in this instance its a max hit so their variable damage roll is 80. The 80 gets reduced by 90% because you have stonestance up. This is 8. Their damage bonus is then added to this value and the amount of damage you take is 28.

Previously, the damage roll of 80 would have been added to the damage bonus of 20 for a total of 100 points. This 100 points of damage would then be reduced by 90%, resulting in 10 points of damage taken.

I don't know if this is how it should be, but from kanras' explanation this is how its been coded in.

Formula:
(Mob damage roll)*(1-reduction % as a decimal)+ mob damage bonus = Damage taken

Where mob damage roll is calculated using all those other fun formulas based on AC, Mob level ect....

So the math for my earlier example would be
(80)*(1-.9)+(20)=
(80)*(.1)+(20)=
8+20= 28

So in order to test to be sure stonestance is working as intended (provided my assumption on how it should be working is correct) we need to know the following:

Minimum mob damage, Maximum mob damage.

With the minimum mob damage we can figure it what it's damage bonus is. With the maximum mob damage we can figure out what its damage range is.

With this information we can then figure out the damage range you should be taking while stone stance is active.

In Rais' second log it appears that stonestance does little or nothing at all. If his mitigation is high enough that the mob is already hitting in the lower end of its damage range, then you're not going to see a very large difference in the amount of damage you take once activating stonestance, because the majority of the damage being generated by each attack is attributed to the mobs damage bonus which doesn't get reduced by stonestance.

[Azzbad]

If I understand this correctly.

Previously, mob damage was calculated and then defensive/stonestance were reducing the end number by whatever %.

The way they should have worked (and supposedly work now, if i understand this correctly) is the mobs damage (not counting damage bonus) should be calculated, reduced by whatever % and then the damage bonus for the mob added. This is how much damage you should have taken.

Take a mob with a max damage of 100 and a minimum damage of 21. This means they have a damage bonus of 20 and a variable damage range of 1-80. They perform their attack and the calculation for their damage is performed. Let's say in this instance its a max hit so their variable damage roll is 80. The 80 gets reduced by 90% because you have stonestance up. This is 8. Their damage bonus is then added to this value and the amount of damage you take is 28.

Previously, the damage roll of 80 would have been added to the damage bonus of 20 for a total of 100 points. This 100 points of damage would then be reduced by 90%, resulting in 10 points of damage taken.

I don't know if this is how it should be, but from kanras' explanation this is how its been coded in.

Formula:
(Mob damage roll)*(1-reduction % as a decimal)+ mob damage bonus = Damage taken

Where mob damage roll is calculated using all those other fun formulas based on AC, Mob level ect....

So the math for my earlier example would be
(80)*(1-.9)+(20)=
(80)*(.1)+(20)=
8+20= 28

So in order to test to be sure stonestance is working as intended (provided my assumption on how it should be working is correct) we need to know the following:

Minimum mob damage, Maximum mob damage.

With the minimum mob damage we can figure it what it's damage bonus is. With the maximum mob damage we can figure out what its damage range is.

With this information we can then figure out the damage range you should be taking while stone stance is active.

In Rais' second log it appears that stonestance does little or nothing at all. If his mitigation is high enough that the mob is already hitting in the lower end of its damage range, then you're not going to see a very large difference in the amount of damage you take once activating stonestance, because the majority of the damage being generated by each attack is attributed to the mobs damage bonus which doesn't get reduced by stonestance.


Exactly. The stonestance disc has historically been the #1 monk discipline. It was & is used to position NPCs in zones like Kael and NTOV (and beyond) into corner positions. Also notice my picture (linked again) of what NPC special attacks are doing when stonestance is active. Stonestance is actually boosting NPC special attack dmg to its regular minimum melee hit unless anyone has ever seen a random blue con in howling stones bash for 46.









http://img9.imageshack.us/img9/5592/stonestancerocks.jpg

[baalzy]

Looks like stonestance could be causing the NPCs bonus dmg to be added to all attacks instead of just primary hand attacks. This could cause you to get your ass handed to you if you stonestanced against a dual-wielding mob as their off-hand would be getting a damage bonus that it normally wouldn't.

As far as positioning against NTOV and Kael raid mobs. Well, stone stance would be reducing their damage by a huge amount because those mobs are going to be hitting for the high end of their variable damage range frequently against a monk which means the bulk of the mobs damage potential will be reduced by stonestance.

Once again, I'm just interpretting how I believe it's implemented here. This implementation would be based on how Kanras feels stonestance should work. If you feel that stonestance should be reducing total mob damage instead of mob damage before-bonus then you need to find some period specific evidence to prove this.

[baalzy]

from: http://www.monkly-business.net/forums/showthread.php?t=8646
"....
So, Cazic Thule can hit for 220, 240, 260, ..., 580, or 600.
....
The way Defensive works is it multiplies DI by 0.5

The Monk Stonestance discipline multiplies DI by 0.1 (too bad it only lasts 12sec eh?)

This puts the min hit at DB + DI *0.5, and the max hit at DB + 20*DI*0.5

So CT could hit for 210, 220, 230, ..., 390, or 400 with Defensive up"

I don't use the same terminology, but according to this post what I described above is how stonestance/defensive SHOULD work. its mob damage bonus + mob damage range(modified by stonestance/defensive %) is the amount of damage you should be taking.

The bug which appears to be manifest in this change is that the mobs damage bonus is being added to mob special attacks when it shouldn't be.

[kanras]

baalzy doing good work here. Only thing to correct:


The bug which appears to be manifest in this change is that the mobs damage bonus is being added to mob special attacks when it shouldn't be.

From last patch notes:

Kanras: Fixed NPC kick/bash damage.

Kick/bash damage basically can't be mitigated due to its damage range being DB to DB+10 (for most NPCs)

[Azzbad]

isnt a 46 dmg bash way too much?

[Structures_Fall]

baalzy doing good work here.

/salute

[Aadill]

Here's a question: Stonestance may be operating correctly but are mob damage bonuses in the correct range? I.E. were mobs tuned to match their original base damage and bonus damage or were the values simply matched to their overall damage? If it's the latter, damage bonuses may be set too high because the base damage is set too low, causing stonestance to appear broken.

[Versus]

Love you Baalzy <3

[kanras]

Yeah, NPC damage bonuses were too high for a large portion of 30+ trash mobs. Should be more reasonable, pending update.

[Versus]

I'd like to bump this just to note that the BASE re use time. Like all the disciplines, the re use timer decreased as you leveled up...

Here on P99, the re use timer at 60 is 12 minutes. This is not correct.

http://www.monkly-business.net/forums/showthread.php?t=8892 :
Discipline --30- --40- --51- --52- --53- --54- --55- --56- --57- --58- --59- --60- --61- --62- --63- --64- --65-
Resistant.. 60:00 51:00 41:06 40:12 39:18 38:24 37:30 36:36 35:42 34:48 33:54 33:00 32:06 31:12 30:18 29:24 28:30
Fearless... ----- 60:00 50:06 49:12 48:18 47:24 46:30 45:36 44:42 43:48 42:54 42:00 41:06 40:12 39:18 38:24 37:30
Stonestance ----- ----- 12:00 11:06 10:12 09:18 08:24 07:30 06:36 05:42 04:48 03:54 03:54 03:54 03:54 03:54 03:54
Thunderkick ----- ----- ----- 09:00 08:06 07:12 06:18 05:24 04:30 03:54 03:54 03:54 03:54 03:54 03:54 03:54 03:54
Whirlwind.. ----- ----- ----- ----- 60:00 59:06 58:12 57:18 56:24 55:30 54:36 53:42 52:48 51:54 51:00 50:06 49:12
Voiddance.. ----- ----- ----- ----- ----- 60:00 59:06 58:12 57:18 56:24 55:30 54:36 53:42 52:48 51:54 51:00 50:06
Innerflame. ----- ----- ----- ----- ----- ----- ----- 30:00 29:06 28:12 27:18 26:24 25:30 24:36 23:42 22:48 21:54
100 Fist... ----- ----- ----- ----- ----- ----- ----- ----- 30:00 29:06 28:12 27:18 26:24 25:30 24:36 23:42 22:48
Silentfist. ----- ----- ----- ----- ----- ----- ----- ----- ----- ----- 09:54 09:00 08:06 07:12 06:18 05:24 04:30
Ashenhand.. ----- ----- ----- ----- ----- ----- ----- ----- ----- ----- ----- 72:00 71:06 70:12 69:18 68:24 67:30

Not to mention, Thunder Kick began as a 1 hit critical kick, displaying like a warrior critical. I'm not going to put in leg work though because it's better now on P99, as you can score kicks for higher damage over a period of time.

[Cheech]

I'd like to bump this just to note that the BASE re use time. Like all the disciplines, the re use timer decreased as you leveled up...

Here on P99, the re use timer at 60 is 12 minutes. This is not correct.

http://www.monkly-business.net/forums/showthread.php?t=8892 :


Not to mention, Thunder Kick began as a 1 hit critical kick, displaying like a warrior critical. I'm not going to put in leg work though because it's better now on P99, as you can score kicks for higher damage over a period of time.

Nice find man. I knew it scaled down as you lvled. Bump lets get this looked at.

[Versus]

This should probably have it's own thread, to be completely honest...

[Motec]

The reuse delay on stonestance should be around 3min at 60. Like 3:36 or 3:48 I think from when it was activated. I distinctly remember being able to use on every other pull, and it was up fairly often for FD fails every few mins.

The old thunderkick was awesome though, its not like it's a big dps increase so the old showboating for a big crit was always fun. Tkick killing blows ftw.

[h0tr0d (shaere)]

Stonestance cannot be activated when FD, it interrupts. Should be able to use it fd.