Which is better raw DPS?

[Malykor]

For you math nerds.... mathematically, which is better for raw DPS...
Level 40 monk
Addy Club 15/25 main-hand : SoS 17/28 off-hand
or
IFS 38/40 two-hand



This might have too many variants to break down mathematically..... if so.... I would still like everyone's opinion.

[Master Roshi]

without any proof or math, I want to say IFS

[Arvan]

Use something like gamparse to display your DPS and then you dont need to know any math

[Malykor]

Use something like gamparse to display your DPS and then you dont need to know any math

I've been dying to do this, but I'm not computer savvy in the least.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

I am not a Monk expert by any means, but I would guess IFS at your level. My reasoning is simply that dual wield is a skill, and that means lower skill = less offhand attacks. So unless level 40+ has the skill range at which dual wield starts really taking off, you should get better use out of a 2h weapon. Less ripostes from enemies too.

[Pint]

IFS is better assuming you're fighting things your own level

[Jibartik]

IFS is better assuming you're fighting things your own level

Why own level give advantage to the IFS over the duel wield?

[Vaarsuvius]

Fewer swings so fewer miss chances?

Also if I'm not mistaken on targets that are close to (or lower than) your level your max hits tend to be higher?

[Keebz]

Dual wield combo is slightly more raw dps according to my formulas, but if you're tanking/soloing you should use the IFS—2h are almost always preferable when trading ripostes is involved.


(EDIT: my damage bonus code may be off. If someone tells me what the damage bonus for a 40 delay weapon at lvl 40 is right now on green, I can run the numbers again)

[plzrelax]

IFS esp if you are executing the off hand punches in between swings

[Malykor]

Many thanks for input guys and gals.... seems that favor goes to IFS..... but...


I've been testing both of these on Griffons and HGs, and I seem to be having smoother battles dual wielding addy/SoS.... wonder why that is?


Edit: using 24% haste btw....

[fiveeauxfour]

Addy has the stun proc with dd @50. Great for soloing for dmg reduction.

Dual wield is generally more consistent DPS, because more dice rolls will approach the dmg averages quicker than slower 2h rolls. With triple atk at 60, 2h gets a nice buff.

From what i can remember, I used peacekeeper for a long, long while on my monk until I was able to get endgame weapons. As mentioned previously, if youre feeling sweaty, after every "crush" damage you can take off the IFS and get some "punch" damage, then quickly re-equip the IFS. I occasionally use the Tstaff to mix it up for the stun proc and its decent dps.

As mentioned previously, 2h is good for soloing because it reduces the opportunity for the mob to riposte you; and if you're against a DS, it reduces the overall damage by reducing hit counts.

[Cen]

I am not a Monk expert by any means, but I would guess IFS at your level. My reasoning is simply that dual wield is a skill, and that means lower skill = less offhand attacks. So unless level 40+ has the skill range at which dual wield starts really taking off, you should get better use out of a 2h weapon. Less ripostes from enemies too.

As an aside to the main topic, Monks max their Dual Wield for LIFE the earliest.. at level 35 (252)

Level * 7 + 7.

They are the kings of it ;D

[Keebz]

As mentioned previously, 2h is good for soloing because it reduces the opportunity for the mob to riposte you...

Adding to this, your ripostes also hit harder.

[Malykor]

IFS esp if you are executing the off hand punches in between swings

How does this work? After I swing with IFS, remove it from inventory, wait a couple seconds, and equip it again?

[Toxigen]

How does this work? After I swing with IFS, remove it from inventory, wait a couple seconds, and equip it again?

Its less than a couple seconds.

Once you get the timing down its pretty easy to do it consistently.

Its super autism though. I used to do it in tight / sticky situations.

[Jimjam]

How does this work? After I swing with IFS, remove it from inventory, wait a couple seconds, and equip it again?

You only need to double click the staff roughly every 3.5 seconds - aka the off hand naked fist delay- (smaller interval if you are hasted). This double click quickly unequips the 2 hander allowing the offhand an attempt to swing.

[Malykor]

^^

Thanks....heh.... Gonna definitely give it a try. This is the first time I've heard of this.

[Evia]

^^

Thanks....heh.... Gonna definitely give it a try. This is the first time I've heard of this.

It’s like the old bind wound trick. Way more effort than it’s worth imho. Sure you’ll benefit from it, but at what cost? Your enjoyment and sanity?

[Malykor]

It’s like the old bind wound trick. Way more effort than it’s worth imho. Sure you’ll benefit from it, but at what cost? Your enjoyment and sanity?

Yeah I messed around with it yesterday, not worth the trouble IMO.

[Keebz]

It’s like the old bind wound trick. Way more effort than it’s worth imho. Sure you’ll benefit from it, but at what cost?

The old bind wound trick was unreal though. It was a game changer for solo melee.

[ScottBerta]

Can you find the same mob, same level and fight with different weapons. Preferably if you could do it to a white con mob each time. Time fight and also note how much hp you end with for each fight. May be a good gauge.

[plzrelax]

Yeah I messed around with it yesterday, not worth the trouble IMO.

As far as melee combat goes, Everquest isn’t a terribly hard game. I don’t mind too much spending a little extra focus double clicking after each swing.

I used a Peacebringer instead of the IFS until I got my epic. Without your epic, I would argue that the offhand punches are better with the PB than the IFS because 50+ the delay of the naked monk fist and the PB are nearly the same. It makes the execution quite easy. And at that higher level without the epic your fists will start dropping bombs.

I think the IFS might be better with the epic for the purposes of off hand punches. With a delay of 40, you can easily fit in two rounds of 16 delay punches before re equipping the staff. That would be pretty gnarly but I would imagine that would be more difficult to pay attention to, especially if dual wield doesn’t “proc”. I’ve never used an IFS but those are my thoughts FWIW. I like punching things.

[Stonewallx39]

I tried this with my Iksar monk and Peacebringer at lvl 48 and 22% haste. I couldn’t quite figure out what I was supposed to be doing.

How does this punching work exactly? Is the idea that the offhand is on a different timer and is ready to roll if I wait long enough to unequip my PB? Or how should I think about trying to time the clicks?

I reeeeeally like punching things and would be happy to sacrifice the extra clicks for more deeps/punchieness. I definitely felt like I was risking swings on my PB and did not see a DPS increase. Probably user error though.

[plzrelax]

I tried this with my Iksar monk and Peacebringer at lvl 48 and 22% haste. I couldn’t quite figure out what I was supposed to be doing.

How does this punching work exactly? Is the idea that the offhand is on a different timer and is ready to roll if I wait long enough to unequip my PB? Or how should I think about trying to time the clicks?

I reeeeeally like punching things and would be happy to sacrifice the extra clicks for more deeps/punchieness. I definitely felt like I was risking swings on my PB and did not see a DPS increase. Probably user error though.

Exactly. Your primary slot has its own delay timer, even if using a 2H. The secondary is indeed on a separate timer. At 48 your fist is 13/32.

You only need to quickly double click your staff to execute the off hand punch. Just an instant is all the time you need. Other than the quick double click, the staff should stay equipped. Sometimes, even at 252 dual wield skill, the punch just doesn’t happen. No big deal, just keep the staff equipped and do it again after your next swing.

Keep an eye on your combat text. When you see “You crush...” that is the timing.. right after your swing, every attack round. Feels good quadding with a 2HB. But especially at the beginning before you get the hang of it make sure you don’t forget to kick.

[korax251]

I have been doing this exact thing on my lvl 42 monk lately using wu’s quivering staff, and it seems to me that every other swing with the 2hnder i can successfully get the off hand punches to double attack. When i try doing it every attack the off hand doesnt land on every attack. Im guessing it now makes sense about the off hand being on seperate timers.

[Man0warr]

At 60 Epic fist/SoS or AC/SoS is going to be better DPS than any droppable 2hander, and most of the no drop ones. The final patch of this timeline when 2H bonus damage gets scaled based on delay there are some competitive 2H weapons from VP and NToV.

There are reasons to have a 2H weapon (especially Tranquil Staff for it's damage/stun aggro for tanking), but highest DPS isn't one of them.

[Stonewallx39]

Exactly. Your primary slot has its own delay timer, even if using a 2H. The secondary is indeed on a separate timer. At 48 your fist is 13/32.

You only need to quickly double click your staff to execute the off hand punch. Just an instant is all the time you need. Other than the quick double click, the staff should stay equipped. Sometimes, even at 252 dual wield skill, the punch just doesn’t happen. No big deal, just keep the staff equipped and do it again after your next swing.

Keep an eye on your combat text. When you see “You crush...” that is the timing.. right after your swing, every attack round. Feels good quadding with a 2HB. But especially at the beginning before you get the hang of it make sure you don’t forget to kick.

This worked like a charm and I had a lot of fun doing it. You were right it’s easy to forget about kick haha.

[wckdtrb]

At 60, including ripostes, not including procs, max potential dps (assuming 100% hits and 100% max dmg)
the 2 1hb is 25% more dps than the IFS.

[Baler]

Some Variables to keep in mind...
Is your target...
Red con, Blue/Green con?
High AC, Low AC?
Are you solo or are you fully raid buffed?

I bet you'd be surprised in the difference between say red con with high AC and a green con with low ac. That is to say the answer may not be as you expect.

[Stonewallx39]

At 60, including ripostes, not including procs, max potential dps (assuming 100% hits and 100% max dmg)
the 2 1hb is 25% more dps than the IFS.

Could you share some more detail on how you calculated this?

[wckdtrb]

Could you share some more detail on how you calculated this?

Sure.
The 2hb is easier, so...
(([Offense Skill] + [STR]) / 100) x [Weapon Damage]) + [Main Hand Bonus] (rounded down)
This is max dmg formula as compiled from the wiki.
Now, we need to factor in number of attacks.
(At 60, that mod is 5.07. wpn dmg is 38, mhbonus is 17 (velious) or 12 (green current).)

Now we take that + .6 that + .3125 that again (.6 = 60% double attack) and (.3125 = 31.25% triple attack)

Add another .09 that max damage again (assuming a 9% riposte at a same rate of attack as the player {this could be higher})

This gives us a max potential dmg, and we now need to divide by attacks per second, at max haste, its 0.5 (20 delay) attacks per second. This all gives us a dps of 210.92 max potenial dps

For the 1HBs its a bit more complicated, but suffice it to say, they work out to ~260

So i rouned to a rough ~25% higher.

This is all based on the wiki's formulas.

[Croco]

There are some problems with your math. First off the damage bonus for a 40 delay 2h at level 60 is 34, not 17. Second where do you get a triple attack % of 31.25? That's too high. Monks double attack at 60 roughly 40% of the time not 60%, and triple attack about 20% of the time according to the wiki but that number for triple seems high to me.

I'm pretty sure IFS dunks on addy/sos combo pretty easily, at least on blue. Obviously like baler said it depends on what you're fighting. Something with high ac you're probably going to see the dw combo out perform 2hb.

[wckdtrb]

If you have issues with the math update the wiki, or do the math in your own spreadsheets. As stated, everything I pulled came directly from the wiki. It might be worth remembering i did explicitly state ideal dps, not "on blue". You likely experience a 40% rate ideas due to misses, which i do not account for. I'm sharing max potential. As for 2HB bonus, I'd love the source on this please so I can update my sheets. All I have is the game code when roegan released it.

I was curious why you would critique math without proof so I looked at your forum history. You troll people. I hope my answer helps OP. If not, I hope someone else's does

[Man0warr]

Just FYI, Monks on Green don't get Triple Attack or scaling 2H damage bonus based on Delay until the Chardok 2.0 patch which is one of if not the final patch. That's why 2H are not competitive for DPS for much of the progression.

[Arvan]

Imagine thinking the wiki is an accurate source of information (especially about behind the scenes calculations)

Parser is the way to actually compare weapons.

[Stonewallx39]

Sure.
The 2hb is easier, so...
(([Offense Skill] + [STR]) / 100) x [Weapon Damage]) + [Main Hand Bonus] (rounded down)
This is max dmg formula as compiled from the wiki.
Now, we need to factor in number of attacks.
(At 60, that mod is 5.07. wpn dmg is 38, mhbonus is 17 (velious) or 12 (green current).)

Now we take that + .6 that + .3125 that again (.6 = 60% double attack) and (.3125 = 31.25% triple attack)

Add another .09 that max damage again (assuming a 9% riposte at a same rate of attack as the player {this could be higher})

This gives us a max potential dmg, and we now need to divide by attacks per second, at max haste, its 0.5 (20 delay) attacks per second. This all gives us a dps of 210.92 max potenial dps

For the 1HBs its a bit more complicated, but suffice it to say, they work out to ~260

So i rouned to a rough ~25% higher.

This is all based on the wiki's formulas.

Thank you for taking the time and sharing your calculation. It’s similar to what I’ve used to get an estimate for weapon dmg. and I agree is out best guess based off the wiki.

Your right the DPS potential is very different for 2hb on green right now without he dmg bonus buff. Trolls like to point out how you’re wrong or imply your naive for using the wiki. If they’re so smart but won’t share the truth that’s really more a reflection on them than on you or anyone who uses the wiki.

[wckdtrb]

Imagine thinking the wiki is an accurate source of information (especially about behind the scenes calculations)

Parser is the way to actually compare weapons.

I agree that parses give you real world dps, but to generate conclusions, you need a statistically significant* amount of data. So I think if we had AoW parses (choosing this because its a realworld, long duration, fight, right?) of monks with both the desired weapon sets, and many sets of those, we could draw conclusions about the weapons, as well as potentially the formulas used to predict their dps.

[Croco]

If you have issues with the math update the wiki, or do the math in your own spreadsheets. As stated, everything I pulled came directly from the wiki. It might be worth remembering i did explicitly state ideal dps, not "on blue". You likely experience a 40% rate ideas due to misses, which i do not account for. I'm sharing max potential. As for 2HB bonus, I'd love the source on this please so I can update my sheets. All I have is the game code when roegan released it.

I was curious why you would critique math without proof so I looked at your forum history. You troll people. I hope my answer helps OP. If not, I hope someone else's does

You have the MOD number correct but for blue (OP doesn't specify if he's on green or blue) you would use the table linked in the wiki to find the damage bonus https://lucy.allakhazam.com/dmgbonus.html. For double attack at 60 the following equation is listed on the wiki (% Chance to Double Attack Per Hit) = (Double Attack Skill Level) / ("MaxSkill"*1.05) so for 60 that works out to 250/(600*1.05) which equals .3968 or roughly 40%. Triple attack calculation is stated to be the same except 1/2 of the double attack skill so 125/(600*1.05) which equals .1984 or roughly 20%. So that's where I got my math from, all from the wiki.

Based on parses that many monks did on blue after the 2hb changes in the chardok patch IFS was competitive with epic/sos and Tstaff was better. It was only once you start getting to top tier raid 1 handers that you blow past droppable 2hb options. Also @OP setting up gamparse is incredibly easy, you don't need to be computer savvy.

[Snaggles]

You can average multiple parses of the same encounter. IE: one vindi means nothing, 10 is a decent comparison if you used the same weapon and had relatively similar buffs.

Not to downplay the monk struggle, I dont have one, but you often only have a few choices and if you have a lot of plat only a couple. Each with nice advantages besides simple dps. Stun procs, aggro or low aggro etc. The IFS is insanely good for the plat and lightweight...my outsiders opinion is always in awe of that thing. If you have really high end raid gear I expect already parsing with a pretty firm belief on what you want or don't want.

I guess a curse of all doing good to high damage no matter what. Sweating the details and trying to keep those rogues on their toes. You are definitely less neurotic than us rangers :D.

[Jimjam]

Sure.
The 2hb is easier, so...
(([Offense Skill] + [STR]) / 100) x [Weapon Damage]) + [Main Hand Bonus] (rounded down)
This is max dmg formula as compiled from the wiki.
Now, we need to factor in number of attacks.
(At 60, that mod is 5.07. wpn dmg is 38, mhbonus is 17 (velious) or 12 (green current).)

Now we take that + .6 that + .3125 that again (.6 = 60% double attack) and (.3125 = 31.25% triple attack)

Add another .09 that max damage again (assuming a 9% riposte at a same rate of attack as the player {this could be higher})

This gives us a max potential dmg, and we now need to divide by attacks per second, at max haste, its 0.5 (20 delay) attacks per second. This all gives us a dps of 210.92 max potenial dps

For the 1HBs its a bit more complicated, but suffice it to say, they work out to ~260

So i rouned to a rough ~25% higher.

This is all based on the wiki's formulas.
If you're calculating max damage, why aren't you factoring triple attack at 100%?

[Cecily]

For you math nerds.... mathematically, which is better for raw DPS...
Level 40 monk
Addy Club 15/25 main-hand : SoS 17/28 off-hand
or
IFS 38/40 two-hand



This might have too many variants to break down mathematically..... if so.... I would still like everyone's opinion.
The unhelpful, but real answer is you're not a DPS class at that level (or any other level in comparison to rogues with the attention span to get buffed, stay behind the thing, and press their backstab within 2 seconds of it coming off cooldown).

Whichever thing helps you pull better. DPS monks are very very very common. Pullers are kinda rare. Be a puller.

[wckdtrb]

If you're calculating max damage, why aren't you factoring triple attack at 100%?

I appreciate the thought, but "knowing" the rate to be 31.25, there is no point in assuming it will ever go to 100%, though as long as you did this across all weapons, you should have the same proportional dps.

[Croco]

I appreciate the thought, but "knowing" the rate to be 31.25, there is no point in assuming it will ever go to 100%, though as long as you did this across all weapons, you should have the same proportional dps.

it's not 31.25

[Knuckle]

wonder if people are factoring in double attack. 2h DPS probably curves upward on triple attack at 60 also.

[wagorf]

At 60 Epic fist/SoS or AC/SoS is going to be better DPS than any droppable 2hander, and most of the no drop ones. The final patch of this timeline when 2H bonus damage gets scaled based on delay there are some competitive 2H weapons from VP and NToV.

There are reasons to have a 2H weapon (especially Tranquil Staff for it's damage/stun aggro for tanking), but highest DPS isn't one of them.

lol nope, not on blue after revamp/2h ugprade

[Man0warr]

lol nope, not on blue after revamp/2h ugprade

Did you just "lol nope" me without actually reading my comment? Blue has already had the final patch that buffs 2H. Let's try to read.

[Toxigen]

I'm not so sure even after the 2h upgrade.

My monk has Facesmasher. I also have Sap Encrusted Branch and an Addy Club.

SEB + Addy certainly "feels" like higher dps. I take less damage using Facesmasher, of course.

I'm almost certain if I can snag some Wurmscale Fistwraps to pair w/ my Tunare stick it will blow Facesmasher out of the water.

[Croco]

My double priceless fist feels like better dps than my shovel of the harvest but there are plenty of fights shovel blows it out of the water. Feelings are meaningless post some parses. Facesmasher crushes that combo I bet.

[Toxigen]

My double priceless fist feels like better dps than my shovel of the harvest but there are plenty of fights shovel blows it out of the water. Feelings are meaningless post some parses. Facesmasher crushes that combo I bet.

Thats why I put it in quotes.

[Vivitron]

I've found parsing itself can lead to a dps bump for me; it makes me look for something to fix when my numbers are less than expected. This probably has a bigger effect on my damage than choosing between two similar weapons, although it would help there too.

[rubicaant]

50/42 beats 14/19+15/20 on most fights except the higher ac mobs. but does have it's inconsistencies. Dual wielding will always be much more consistent. On blue anyway.

[radbeard]

[For Green Server, using old damage bonuses here] according to my spreadsheet IFS is 5% worse at lvl 40 on green. EXCEPT that you can unequip IFS after every attack for a chance at an offhand punch. An offhand monk attack at lvl 40 with an IFS is effectively a 14/40 Offhand. Making IFS + Punch 10% stronger than the dual wield combo. Does include dual wield chance, doesn't include double attack. Although I guess it should and i could update it to, since double attack with a 2hander is slightly better for more bonus damage.

IFS = 21.25
Addy + SoS = 22.49 (assuming 120 dex)
IFS + Offhand Punch = 24.85

[Penish]

When I play I usually click on and off my weopon everyone 1.6 seconds for an offhand hit on a dragon / mob that will die in less than 9 seconds.


(Try outside bud)

[radbeard]

Clicking a button every one and a half seconds is pretty slow gameplay for most video games. If you're soloing or in a small group getting more damage for free is very worthwhile