Smedy video demonstrates why TZVZ PvP was terrible

[wehrmacht]

Knuckle posted a long ass page of PvP videos and I started browsing through them earlier today and I stumbled upon the infamous Rexx fight:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uo1hmS4H5Rk


Yea, it's Rexx in the video dying, and everyone loves when Rexx dies but once you get over that fact, there are a few problems with how this plays out. First of all, it's the best geared warrior on the server and and he's being rooted, snared, and stunned like he's a naked level 1.

This makes it so if you're ever in a 1vs2 fight, no matter how terrible of players they are, they automatically win. One person just runs in circles while the other guy stands in place continuously spamming crowd control spells just like what happened in this video.

Now Rexx isn't the best player on the server but he's definitely not the worst. There's really nothing he could have done to change the outcome of this fight besides possibly running away the second it started. What you're looking at is a communist, welfare system of PvP.

You don't need to be good. All you need to do is show up and face roll your keyboard and you will probably kill someone or contribute to their death.

For anyone wanting a skill based PvP system, the problem with that video is pretty obvious. There is just too little chance of either person on the side with two people dying, and too high of a chance for the other guy dying no matter what the skill level is of the people involved.

The chain casting CC spells while another person kills you tactic has to be changed in order to have any paltry amount of skill involved in this game. You don't even have to remove them completely, they just can't function in a way that makes this skill-less tactic viable.

There are two ways of doing it, you can either make them land less, or you can make it so crowd control lands often but breaks much easier. DAoC for example is a game where crowd control lands very easily but they all break after taking only 1 damage (even snares). If you want crowd control to land in EQ, it needs to function in a similar way, either breaks after 1 damage or it breaks after you take X% of your total HP value, and it needs to be a small value.

If crowd control breaks after taking an extremely small amount of damage, that tactic will be much less viable and some amount of skill will be restored to this game. It would also add more skill to caster PvP since casters would have to time their spells and do whats called "sync dumps" (UO terminology) if they plan to try and use CC spells to kill people.

If you leave this system the way it currently is, if it was me personally faced with a fight like that, I wouldn't even bother fighting them. I'd just take off for the zone line and wait for a less inherently bad game design fight. Why implement a system that discourages PvP? It obviously needs to be changed to give people some incentive to stick around.

[fiegi]

Thats interesting..... considering i died maybe 3 times all of 3.0 on my monk when snares landed a lot..... being outnumbered 95% of the time. He could of dispelled his snare on numerous occasions in this fight but did not, of course hes gonna end up dead.:confused:

[Gnar]

This makes it so if you're ever in a 1vs2 fight, no matter how terrible of players they are, they automatically win.


Won many 1v2s on the box as both druid and warrior and a few 1v3s as druid. Ever heard of pumice? This post was retarded and not worth reading. Would not recommend as a read even for my worst enemy.

[Crenshinabon]

Warrior is not the best example of a 1v2 pvp class.
Warrior will prob roll most 1v1.

This is a bad example of pvp in this game imo.

Also warrior did not do much, no clickies/dispells, no ranged bow use. He just kind of ran around for a bit and died. Also we dont even know how this fight started, it looked like the two casters got the jump on the ogre in which case of course he is gonna get rolled. I honestly hate to say it but warriors are not too good a pvp class vs multiple casters.

is this a troll post?

[JayDee]

Watching those old videos reminds me of a time when people actually cared

[Kringe]

Think the point was how "easy" root snare landed on a "warrior" (highest innate mr class, minus a bard) consecutively over and over. There is a reason why certain spells (that are gamebreaking) shouldnt land as much as they did on vz/tz.

[Terpuntine]

Ogod Wehrmacht is on the root subject again... and using a fail video of someone playing like dog shit as an example.

[Rushmore]

have to agree with Crescent fresh and Big hands Gnar on this one.

[naez]

have any of yous even tried channeling pumice on a pure melee? enchanter pet would interrupt that shit waste of time go down swinging


see: end of Catastrophe in Kithicor

[Jigga]

luckily there was no ench pet there

[naez]

only epic'd vile

[JayDee]

Let's not mention how the miss rate was like nil on 1.0 box and warriors were hitting for like 1.5khp cripple with AP.

[Jigga]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6uCcfyKn1YQ&feature=mfu_in_order&list=UL

looks like 13 resists in a row and the end he gets snared and then rooted. If the paladin would of went after the druid, he had plenty of time, he could of probably won because he was doing great 1v2 its just he chose the wrong target.

And from the looks of it the paladin either had 150 or 160 mr, super easy to obtain in kunark and he resisted 13 snare/roots in a row.

I mean yeah i dont want root or snare or mez or blind to land on me at all. If Devs want to remove those spells then i know ill wont have to every worry about getting away but resisting 13 snare/roots in a row sounds pretty good too

Also its a whole new server. I read that null is working on a spell system for red99 so since hes working on something its save to assume hes just not copying and pasting his old spell system from vztz otherwise it would be " He has a spell system already" and not " hes working on a spell system"

[Pudge]

lol wehr. that's from what, 1.0? good job finding the incriminating evidence of why the server died 3 years later

[Envious]

I want to change my vote for the first person I will try and kill, to Wehr.

You ever wonder why each of your threads turns into 5+ pages of people calling you stupid?

[wehrmacht]

I honestly hate to say it but warriors are not too good a pvp class vs multiple casters.

Only on TZVZ which wasn't anywhere close to real EQ. In normal EQ, the warrior would chase one of the casters around trying to kill him as the other caster nuked. The warrior might not ever succeed in killing one of the casters since they can just run away, but the odds of him either not dying or getting a kill are high enough that there's a reason for him to stay and fight.

If you alter the game and drastically increase the risk for the warrior while also reducing the chance of reward, then any logical person is just going to run away from these fights which is what I consider a failed system that discourages people from participating in PvP.

[Doors]

One word - pumice.

Also lol @ you complaining about roots/snares again. l2p bro.

[wehrmacht]

One word - pumice..

Eight words - Pure melee don't get channeling in EQ classic.

Even if there's no pet or player to interrupt their pumice, you can just keep hit and run CC spamming them till they run out. I did it all the time to people. Rarely will someone have 8 bags full of the shit because you have to use it so often on that server.

[Envious]

Eight words - Pure melee don't get channeling in EQ classic.

Even if there's no pet or player to interrupt their pumice, you can just keep hit and run CC spamming them till they run out. I did it all the time to people. Rarely will someone have 8 bags full of the shit because you have to use it so often on that server.

Thats because classic had egg shaped pumice you fucking moron goddamn fucking stain of a jackass. Get the fuck over getting dominated and raped on VZ/TZ because your too fucking stupid to stack enough MR to resist or too fucking stupid to use some fucking pumice.

And just in case your too fucking inept to find it, it was insta cast, like 5 charges, and spammable. Fuck, your fucking annoying.

[Jigga]

Classic casters owned
Kunark melee got better
Velious melee were king.

What person played a melee on a server that was released during velious that keeps commenting about how classic era pvp should be when Red99 comes out?

Sounds to me said person doesnt have a flying fuck of an idea how classic era pvp went.

Lets get real here. Compare the gear that is avaible to a person who has played the first 6 months of rz compared to the first 6 months of SZ. Wont even bother including raid loot.

First 6 months rz people had items like golen wolf's eye bracelet, platinum jac ring, plat diamond ring,smr, golden diamond mask, split paw gloves just to name a few

First 6 months of sz Bracer of benevolance, VELIUM jac ring, VELIUM diamond ring, Robe of the underfoot, Eyepatch of plunder, VELIUM blue diamond bracers, Silver chitin hand wraps, Thurgadin quest armor.

[Doors]

rooted halp

[Knuckle]

I'm trying to wrap my mind around how wehrmact would use this video to cling to his argument. It's like this one repetitive thing is engulfing his thoughts and hes unable to grasp anything else.

[JayDee]

Thats because classic had egg shaped pumice you fucking moron goddamn fucking stain of a jackass. Get the fuck over getting dominated and raped on VZ/TZ because your too fucking stupid to stack enough MR to resist or too fucking stupid to use some fucking pumice.

And just in case your too fucking inept to find it, it was insta cast, like 5 charges, and spammable. Fuck, your fucking annoying.

In that sea of rage, dude makes a good point.

Part of the reason I never died was because I stocked up on insta-gate potions, golem wands, insta click dd wands on my casters, regen pots, etc.

Knoxx would tell you that is skill, however it is more preparation/pvp saavy imo. Either way, Rexx had a multitude of ways to atleast escape in that particular circumstance.

[wehrmacht]

Thats because classic had egg shaped pumice you fucking moron goddamn fucking stain of a jackass. Get the fuck over getting dominated and raped on VZ/TZ because your too fucking stupid to stack enough MR to resist or too fucking stupid to use some fucking pumice.

And just in case your too fucking inept to find it, it was insta cast, like 5 charges, and spammable. Fuck, your fucking annoying.

Oh boy, it's some angry peon that nobodys ever heard of before crying at me. He played TZ but is too ashamed to even say who his character was on that server or TZVZ.

You can try and invent whatever kind of "personal attack" you want on me, that doesn't change the fact that the TZVZ system was far worse than EQ live due to the reasons already mentioned.

If you roll a caster, you can fight 1vs2's and use spells like shadowstep and levitate to hit and run bomb people then just gate at the first sign of danger. The risk of dying is low and reward of being able to kill people is high. Even if you play like a complete idiot and end up with 10 people meleeing you at the same time, you can channel gate right through it all and instantly vanish on the broken ass TZVZ server.

Melees on the other hand go into 1vs2's such as the Rexx video with little chance of catching a caster to kill them and a huge chance of being chain CC spammed and nuked to death just like what happened there. Null basically completely destroyed the risk vs reward balance between the 2 class archetypes.

[Doors]

calm down wehrm.

[mimixownzall]

This makes it so if you're ever in a 1vs2 fight, no matter how terrible of players they are, they automatically win. One person just runs in circles while the other guy stands in place continuously spamming crowd control spells just like what happened in this video.

You're bitching that 1vs2 and the 2 will almost always win? And you think that viable CC spells in pvp (which you are against) is the cause? If anything, viable CC spells in pvp would help 2vs1 combat. You know, 2 making a 'crowd' thus 'controlling' one of them while the other dies.

WTF kind of logic is that anyways? 2vs1 should win 95+% of the time anyways.

Also, him getting rooted/snared is hardly the reason why he lost. It might be the reason why he didn't kill one of you before dying, but not why he lost.

Before I go on, I DO agree that cc spells should be very highly resistable; to the point where it is not worth the spell slot/mana to use it. Not only is it classic, but it really makes sense. I really don't want everyone and their mother rolling rangers/paladins while they spam root/snare on their way to victory like on Altergate.

Even if he wasn't able to be rooted, the guy he was beating on would have just had to run around/strafe/etc to avoid getting hit (though I think the melee range was a lot greater on that server than live, from what I have heard) and the druid would have just tossed a heal instead of rooting/snaring and still would have nuked him into oblivion.

[Koota]

For anyone wanting a skill based PvP system, the problem with that video is pretty obvious. There is just too little chance of either person on the side with two people dying, and too high of a chance for the other guy dying no matter what the skill level is of the people involved.



So what you're again suggesting is removing the element from casters which allows them ANY and ALL chance at ever killing a melee 1v1, much less surviving the fight, right? All the melee needs is MR past what was it you said, some dumb shit like 140? And boom, they are on your ass non-stop while their victim is generally in cloth or maybe leather. Having to roll the dice on channeling through generally long casting spells (Post 39, anyway), and subject to a slam or a bash.

See, because you're so hell bent with your fascination of absolving CC in EQ PvP, there is a drastic other side to this. At the risk of sounding like a "OMG SUPER KOOTER STALKER", get your stupid shit together and stop posting this same fucking issue 50 times, and come up with a compromise that isn't going to alter the classic "red p99" vibe that will more than likely be attached to it.



Why implement a system that discourages PvP? It obviously needs to be changed to give people some incentive to stick around.


Sounds like the classic system discourages YOU from PvP. There is already chances of say, upon DOT tick or damage inflicted per DD that the root/snare breaks. While I do agree that CCs shouldn't last for their entire in duration on players (Much like DD's shouldn't always do full damage to them), there shouldn't be a point where they are flat out totally resisted. Not even 95%, or even 90%.

This was back when I was playing on a PvP server before you were. And people were pretty encouraged to PvP, because melees knew how to pumice shit off of them properly by using vacant top buff slots, and stacked MR appropriately so that they weren't rooted/snared *AS* often, and even if it was, the duration wasn't crazy long, and there was always the looming chance of it being removed per a damage tick or DD blast inflicted.

[Pudge]

i agree with koota

[Prince]

rooted halp



hoho +rep 2 u sire

[Haul]

Won many 1v2s on the box as both druid and warrior and a few 1v3s as druid. Ever heard of pumice? This post was retarded and not worth reading. Would not recommend as a read even for my worst enemy.

haha

[mimixownzall]

So what you're again suggesting is removing the element from casters which allows them ANY and ALL chance at ever killing a melee 1v1, much less surviving the fight, right? All the melee needs is MR past what was it you said, some dumb shit like 140? And boom, they are on your ass non-stop while their victim is generally in cloth or maybe leather. Having to roll the dice on channeling through generally long casting spells (Post 39, anyway), and subject to a slam or a bash.

I know that sounds right when you put it out there, but guess what: it didn't happen that way on live. On SZ casters were on top even with CC spells being non-viable. The fact is that CC spells (mainly root/snare) hurt the caster more than anything. Their only hope is to run away and hope that the way EQ makes you teleport around and run in circles gives you time to get off some spells. Or, the caster just runs off and chooses to attack when it is more favorable to him.

See, because you're so hell bent with your fascination of absolving CC in EQ PvP, there is a drastic other side to this. At the risk of sounding like a "OMG SUPER KOOTER STALKER", get your stupid shit together and stop posting this same fucking issue 50 times, and come up with a compromise that isn't going to alter the classic "red p99" vibe that will more than likely be attached to it.

Guess what. "Classic" means root/snare/blind/mez will almost never land on someone with 130-ish MR (I can't remember the exact number, but I think it was around there).





. . .there shouldn't be a point where they are flat out totally resisted. Not even 95%, or even 90%.

Again, classic was at least 95% resisted with MR at a certain point.

This was back when I was playing on a PvP server before you were. And people were pretty encouraged to PvP, because melees knew how to pumice shit off of them properly by using vacant top buff slots, and stacked MR appropriately so that they weren't rooted/snared *AS* often, and even if it was, the duration wasn't crazy long, and there was always the looming chance of it being removed per a damage tick or DD blast inflicted.

Where did you have this vast pvp experience on live? I know they eventually changed the MR resist post PoP or more so clerics could actually land nukes on people but this was way later. I remember logging into the joint pvp server when all characters were xfered and going into sebilis. At the necrosis spawn a bard was talking with a necro and told the necro to cast his lifetap on him. The bard resisted all 5 or 6 of them. I think it was some time after this they further tweaked the resist system due to every piece of armor coming out having crazy ac/hps/mana/resists.

[wehrmacht]

WTF kind of logic is that anyways? 2vs1 should win 95+% of the time anyways.

It's called Risk Vs Reward. A solo caster can walk around by himself on TZVZ all day long, run up on multiple people, spam off a couple dots or nukes and score a free, no skill kill. He doesn't have to chase anyone or joust or do shit. If they notice him and start running towards him, he can use shadowstep or levitate, run off, then come back and do it again 2 seconds later. If he gets rooted and has 5 people meleeing him, it doesn't even matter, he can channel gate right through it all and instantly disappear on TZVZ.

The caster has practically no risk for attacking people. If a melee tries to do this, he's going to end up dying in 2 seconds as someone chain casts CC spells on him while others kill him. Making it so tank survivability is that low while caster survivability is that high, is ass backwards from EQ live and it's a sham to even call that EQ PvP.

Warriors, monks, and rogues were perfectly viable solo PvP classes on EQ live, if you alter the game somehow to make them awful for that, we're obviously not playing Everquest anymore and are playing some random shitbox.


I really don't want everyone and their mother rolling rangers/paladins while they spam root/snare on their way to victory like on Altergate.

This is exactly why I want this shit fixed so it's not a repeat of TZVZ or Altergate all over again. I don't want to be forced to choose a ranger, shadow knight, or paladin over a pure melee.

It would be completely impossible for me to lose a 1vs1 while playing a TZVZ paladin. Ranger is almost as good but a wiz could pull off a win with stun and no nuke resists. Why the fuck would I choose any other classes if I can play a hybrid and just automatically win every time? That's god awful balance. EQ live wasn't like that at all.

So what you're again suggesting is removing the element from casters which allows them ANY and ALL chance at ever killing a melee 1v1, much less surviving the fight, right?

You sound like you never played EQ live PvP a single day in your life. Casters on EQ live cast levitate on themselves and ran around basically completely invulnerable to melee. If for some reason they didn't have levitate up, they just spam shadowstep and nukes. There was no "caster survivability" issue on EQ live unless you're fighting inside of a shoebox. Necros could also just straight up tank you and lifetap you to death, I hope your post was a joke.

[mimixownzall]

Basically, melees ruled in dungeons, casters ruled outside. This comes down to swalling your ego/pride and running when you need to. Or roll with groups.

[Crenshinabon]

I played from classic till around GoD off and on.
I never had any of my MR shit get resisted as much as a few of you are saying, ever, on any character. 95%? That's a fkin joke man. As a druid it would sometimes take five or six cast to snare someone, but it would eventually land. As a cleric I remember running around getting blinds off all the time. As an enchanter I CLEARLY remember getting my MR debuffs to consistantly land almost always on anyone and those were all MR based. Yes tash helped but I can guarantee their MR was still high.

Saying that all MR shit was resisted 95% of the time is a lie. Root was MAYBE around 80% but if I chained it on anyone with any character I had it would EVENTUALLY land for a little bit of time.

If MR based spells were resisted 95% of the time I would not have played the game.
If MR based spells on any new server are resisted that much, I also will not play the game because it would be BROKEN.

This is all RZ experience.

[wehrmacht]

I played from classic till around GoD off and on.
I never had any of my MR shit get resisted as much as a few of you are saying, ever, on any character.

Because you were a noob fighting against other noobs. You also said you were on RZ where people are running around with empty slots or just plain naked.

There are links from people testing magic resist during Luclin on the safehouse and they say:

"150 MR gets you about 87% resistance to snares according to my last batch of tests."

It was even easier to resist those spells during Kunark and Velious before it was changed in Luclin.

[Prince]

wehrmacht do u ever sit around and daydream of all the cool things u could do if u redirected the amount of time and effort u spend arguing about everquest mechanics ???

[Jigga]

will you quit if you get rooted, snared, blind or mezzed?

[Prince]

cuz i am p sure u could become a concert violinist or chess grandmaster or some shit

[Crenshinabon]

will you quit if you get rooted, snared, blind or mezzed?

I would not mind if it was around 70-80% of the time is when it would hit. This seems fair.

Also in response to guy above I had multiple max levels and was always fighting top end guilds. But you know what I didn't consider so much was the fact that people did not wear their best gear all the time as myself didn't want our best shit to get taken from us with lame gank.

Interesting.

Think red99 will be an item loot?

[Macken]

One can easily tell why no one ever heard of wormoct on live or VZTZ or any server for that matter.

The guy cannot play EQ. He has no clue what to do, how to do it.

Reading his posts is all you need to know, to know his skill level.

Root foils him.

I mean come on.

[Envious]

As much as I loath Macken... 100% agree.

Wehrmacht should just stop posting, and hope we all forget who he is.

[Doors]

Root foils him.

I mean come on.

[wehrmacht]

One can easily tell why no one ever heard of wormoct on live or VZTZ or any server for that matter.

The guy cannot play EQ. He has no clue what to do, how to do it.

Reading his posts is all you need to know, to know his skill level.

Root foils him.

I mean come on.

Nobody killed me with root on TZVZ because I wasn't stupid enough to play a pure melee class with 0 channeling. I'd just rather not be forced to play a hybrid over a normal melee if I want a character that is viable for anything other than 30vs30 guild fights.

[Amuk]

Hate to agree with em I'll prolly roll sk - then least I can shadowstep when I get perma cc'd.

[Foxx]

Nobody killed me with root on TZVZ because I wasn't stupid enough to play a pure melee class with 0 channeling. I'd just rather not be forced to play a hybrid over a normal melee if I want a character that is viable for anything other than 30vs30 guild fights.

ya, nobody killed u with root cause it does 0 dmg, DUH. its just all the damage they did to u with other spells while u sat there waiting for root to fade

[naez]

vztz 2.0 had bug for some time where if you rotted mob/player with a dd rot for the killing blow it would crash zone

[Jerin]

thats not tz/vz pvp ...thats clearly on rallos

Rallos was the only pvp server where everyone had red names.

tz/vz each team had their own color.

[wehrmacht]

thats not tz/vz pvp ...thats clearly on rallos

Rallos was the only pvp server where everyone had red names.

tz/vz each team had their own color.

It's called the emu server named "TZVZ"

[Jerin]

Ah! I stand corrected.

I shall troll elsewhere.

[Doors]

god damn n0b sandwich getting rick rolled by wormcheck

[Titanuk]

Thats interesting..... considering i died maybe 3 times all of 3.0 on my monk when snares landed a lot..... being outnumbered 95% of the time. He could of dispelled his snare on numerous occasions in this fight but did not, of course hes gonna end up dead.:confused:

truth, atleast on his monk
however we elders know his weakness and how he dies on others toons

[fiegi]

truth, atleast on his monk
however we elders know his weakness and how he dies on others toons

ehehehehehe we can keep that to ourselves

[naez]

this just in: people die in pvp

[MegamanXZOBMV]

MR broski.

So...

Team-based PvP doesn't work because Lone Star can't win a 2v1. Essentially, he cannot solo a team.

Sounds like an intriguing thought process.

[wehrmacht]

MR broski.

So...

Team-based PvP doesn't work because Lone Star can't win a 2v1. Essentially, he cannot solo a team.

Sounds like an intriguing thought process.

I don't know what language this is supposed to be but obviously if you create a server where 2 people can easily kill solo players through the use of spamming crowd control, you are introducing a game dynamic that promotes zerging to win while also penalizing solo'ers.

In real EQ, you weren't guaranteed free kills by zerging and soloing was much more viable. You can't change everything about how the game worked and still call it EQ.

[MegamanXZOBMV]

I guess that makes sense.

Still, I'd argue that.. on a team PvP server, some smarts are required. If two people who are only as half as ''skilled'' as their single opponent decide to gang up on someone.. well, you already know the outcome.

It is Team-based for a reason. If you're going against a team.. and you don't have a team... doesn't matter how skilled you are really. It's really just kind of stupid. Now if you're taken unexpectedly, then you're not really stupid.. just unlucky.

But shit happens.

The whole point of a Team-based server, as stunning as it may sound, involves PvP with teams. If you are attempting to solo PvP on a Team-based server, I really can't say much beyond ''good luck''.

I played often with my Dark Elf Enchanter on Tallon, and really found no issue. I was ganked by groups of PVPers a lot.. but that is to be expected on a team-based server. In reality, you'd have the exact same issue on a FFA-server if there were a couple buddies than decided to group up and go out PvPing, so I really don't understand how this is an example of why TZVZ is bad.. and not just an example of bad luck or poor preparation that likely exists on every form of PvP this Red server could fulfill.

And there's something to be said about classes as well. A Warrior, even an extremely well-geared one.. is probably going to have some issues when two mobility-buffed spellcasters are coming after him. Even moreso if those casters are even half-way as decently geared as him.

Unless I'm still missing your point somehow, in which feel free to dumb it down for me.

Edit: Came to my attention that we are possibly not talking about the same TZVZ here. Are you talking emulated or Live?

[jilena]

Hi!

[wehrmacht]

Edit: Came to my attention that we are possibly not talking about the same TZVZ here. Are you talking emulated or Live?

Did you seriously think me posting a video subtitled "best geared warrior on server being chain rooted/snared/stunned and killed" was somehow representative of EQ live? rofl

That video is not how EQ live PvP looked at all.

[MegamanXZOBMV]

Ah, sorry about that then. I wasn't even aware an emulated TZVZ server existed.. I thought it was still in development.

So then, I'm assuming that the server's mechanics are a bit different than the way Live used to have? I played on Tallon from Kunark through Luclin.. so that's what I'm used to.