For a Shaman who wants to melee level, do I need to be Ogre/Troll?

[Vanessa]

Hello everyone, I'm considering making a Shaman as an alt, but I want to play it mostly as melee character who debuffs the mobs, and buffs herself etc. Rather than the Root + Dots playstyle, since that's currently what I do mostly on my Druid.

I was looking at the wiki, and the melee stat difference between Iksar / Troll / Ogre, are pretty big. For example, Ogre starts with 130 Str and 127 Sta, whereas a Iksar only has 70 Str and 75 Sta.

With such a huge difference in Str and Stam, does that mean it will be much harder to melee effectively on an Iksar, compared to an Ogre? Am I basically forced to go Ogre or Troll, if I want to level efficiently by mostly meleeing?

Thanks!

[Danth]

No, you don't have to pick a specific race. In the near term your damage doesn't scale well and in the long term you have tremendous statistic buff spells anyhow. Difference between them in melee is pretty slim unless you really hate being bashed. The largest pro-Ogre proponent on this forum confirms in his own testing that the Ogre's advantage is not more than a few per cent at best--not enough to get bent out of shape over unless you're determined to min-max as much as possible. All shamans will supplement their melee damage with spell damage and (later) pet damage because Shaman melee post-level 20 is rather weak due to priest hit tables and no double attack. At the end all shamans will solo while in melee since you don't have a choice against things which summon. They all get the job done.

Danth

[Crede]

Ahh this sounds like the start of another shaman racial debate thread. Shaman melee will wear out in the 30s or so so the race isn't too important there, but I'd probably roll ogre because if you continue to play your shaman with a solo play style eventually you may hit 60 when you'll appreciate the ogre frontal stun immunity for solo stuff.

[Vanessa]

I just don't think I could handle being an Ogre or a Troll lol, they're just too ugly, and HUGE.

Also by melee, I didn't mean like doing mostly melee damage. I meant more like, debuffing and DoTing the enemy, then tanking / meleeing it down, with my pet biting it too. At least, that's what I saw other Shamans doing, and it looked pretty fun and active. I'm sure the actual melee damage of a Shaman is nothing compared to like Monk, Rogue, or Ranger etc. But I just like the idea of being in melee range, and swinging my weapon. I feel like with that play style, I'd actually feel like I was in a fight, rather than just Root + DoT then sit and wait =/.

I don't care too much about min / maxing. However, I also don't want screw myself so badly stat wise, that when I swing, I am doing like under 20dmg a swing, whereas if I was an Ogre or Troll, I'd be doing over 30-40+ etc. I don't know exactly how all the stats, dmg, and math works out. But from what Danth said, it doesn't sound like it would be too much of a problem.

If that's the case, then maybe I will go Iksar after all.

But before I actually decide that or not, are there any other reason why I shouldn't go Iksar? Maybe Barbarian?

[Crede]

I just don't think I could handle being an Ogre or a Troll lol, they're just too ugly, and HUGE.

Also by melee, I didn't mean like doing mostly melee damage. I meant more like, debuffing and DoTing the enemy, then tanking / meleeing it down, with my pet biting it too. At least, that's what I saw other Shamans doing, and it looked pretty fun and active. I'm sure the actual melee damage of a Shaman is nothing compared to like Monk, Rogue, or Ranger etc. But I just like the idea of being in melee range, and swinging my weapon. I feel like with that play style, I'd actually feel like I was in a fight, rather than just Root + DoT then sit and wait =/.

I don't care too much about min / maxing. However, I also don't want screw myself so badly stat wise, that when I swing, I am doing like under 20dmg a swing, whereas if I was an Ogre or Troll, I'd be doing over 30-40+ etc. I don't know exactly how all the stats, dmg, and math works out. But from what Danth said, it doesn't sound like it would be too much of a problem.

If that's the case, then maybe I will go Iksar after all.

But before I actually decide that or not, are there any other reason why I shouldn't go Iksar? Maybe Barbarian?

You really shouldn’t be worrying about melee dmg on a shaman. They’re not a melee class and it will fizzle out very quickly. Yes ogres should do a bit more with higher strength but it’s basically irrelevant as shaman melee is worse than a bard and you can buff strength as well for weight issues. Iksars can’t wear the jbb(jaundiced bone bracer). It’s not class defining but it’s a great/fun item and if you plan to sit back and let your pet tank you might want to consider having a barbarian for mana free nukes eventually. .

[loramin]

I completely get the desire to do this. Hell, I wanted to play a "Battle Cleric" so badly I twinked one with a Fungi Tunic, Velium Crystal Staff, and a decent haste item! And on my Shaman (my first character here), the one and only "twink item" I was given by a friend was a Barbarian Spiritist's Hammer. This was back before the proc nerf, so you better believe I was running around meleeing with my Shaman! :)

But, as someone who has tried to play two Priest classes as if they were melee, I promise this: it simply doesn't work past level 20 or so. Priests (even ones with great proccing weapons) simply don't do enough melee damage after the n00b levels. Your fights will just get longer and longer, the higher the mobs' level gets; at some point even a Fungi won't be enough to keep you alive anymore ... but even before that you'll switch to using spells, simply because melee damage is so slow.

Also keep in mind, Shaman slow sucks at low levels. At level 20 you're not even reducing their attack speed by a quarter: even a slowed mob still does 75+% of its damage. So if you try to melee, you'll wind up spending tons of mana on near-worthless slows, roots to take breaks from damage, and heals to fix that damage. And you'll quickly see that it makes much more sense to root the mob or let your pet tank it, not take any damage at all, and then use the mana for DoTs.

So the real answer here is YOUR RACE DOES NOT MATTER! If a Fungi won't keep you alive in melee from 20-60, you better believe the (much lower) Troll regeneration won't either. No matter what race you pick, you will stop meleeing ... so embrace that and pick whatever race you want.

P.S. At latter levels Shaman certainly do melee ... but not because they're doing meaningful melee damage. Once your slow starts reducing melee damage by more than half, you may want to tank mobs again (eg. because they summon, break root frequently, etc.). But again, the melee damage won't matter ... and neither will your race.

[Danth]

I just don't think I could handle being an Ogre or a Troll lol, they're just too ugly, and HUGE.

Always pick the race you like the best. "Ideal" choice does nothing for you if the character goes un-used because you hate the thing. If you like Iksar, pick Iksar.

Main things to watch out for with Iksar is they can't wear Jaundiced Bone (mainly people care about the bracer for the click damage spell) and can't slam. Lack of slam makes spellcasters a little bit more dangerous than usual. Iksars also come with their usual poor factions in old-world cities. Iksar does the job if you want racial regeneration but don't want to be a Troll. Iksar AC bonus should offer a slight bonus to a Shaman who likes to be in melee a lot, call it a consolation prize. You will not notice any large difference in melee damage dealt regardless of race. An Ogre might hit for a couple points more during the teens. It is not significant enough to pick a race for that reason. An Iksar shaman might get encumbered from loot once in awhile at low levels when your STR buff is weak and you have no weight reduction bags, but no more so than any of a dozen other classes in this game and you get better STR buffs soon enough anyhow.

Loramin is right, there will be a period during the middle levels where staying in melee will kind of get annoying. As he says, it comes back later on. The wife's Shaman is very much capable of solo'ing in melee range if it wants to, albeit its melee damage is so low (using the Spear of Fate) that it doesn't particularly notice whether or not it actually turns attack on.

Danth

[Jimjam]

Melee shaman is style over substance, so the only choice is Barbarian. Beat hat or full blown Polar bear monster. Move to resolved.

[Tunabros]

ogre is the best melee overall

[Gustoo]

Can someone tell me why people talk about shamans tanking all the time?

Like, I don't see any stats that make a shaman more of a tank than a cleric.

[Tunabros]

Can someone tell me why people talk about shamans tanking all the time?

Like, I don't see any stats that make a shaman more of a tank than a cleric.

they can torpor themselves and good agro with their dots and poison dd

[Vaarsuvius]

Like Tunasbors said:

Torpor,
75% slow,
Debuffs,
Hasted & buffed pet,
Pox, Bane & epic DoT,
Home made 30ish DS pots,

This might be some of the reasons shamans can tank better than other priest classes

[Gustoo]

I'm talking about Pre Torpor sorry for the confusion.

[Tunabros]

I'm talking about Pre Torpor sorry for the confusion.

dont really need torpor to be a good tank

just need a cleric

[Gozuk]

I leveled my Shaman to 50 using primarily melee. It was fun and I felt like it was pretty efficient especially once I got pet and haste spell. He's an Iksar. Not majorly twinked but I had 21% worn haste, a PWC till around level 25 or 30 and then 30/36 Velium brawlstick after that. Iksar regen BP. Really enjoyed leveling him up!

[Danth]

Can someone tell me why people talk about shamans tanking all the time?

Like, I don't see any stats that make a shaman more of a tank than a cleric.

It's not so much that the shaman is a better theoretical tank than the cleric but rather the shaman's more self-contained for the offtank role (the shaman brings its own slow) and there's usually more of a reason for the shaman to want to do it. Clerics can do it too when circumstances require, just those circumstances tend to be less common.

Danth

[ScottBerta]

Shamans can slow and can regenerate themselves.. pretty good tanking combination. Throw in a pet and haste that’s not bad at all. My main is 60 Ogre Shaman and I did plenty of face tanking. GFG is a good lower level weapon for that. However if you get epic you will want to root/rot or just Duo with like a monk. For super tough solo fights lvl 60... you will absolutely be face tanking. Malo, Slow, Cripple, and start tanking it. However often times I won’t even attack when I do but rather stay non stop cannabilizing, torping, and DoTing. But lower lvls like 30-40s can work real well.

Also to Danth’s point, shaman can tank and mana regenerate at same time with canni, however clerics cannot so they really need to be medding if they are not casting.

[greenspectre]

As a shaman I ended up tanking a lot in groups until about 30 or so. But that was more based on my armor than my weapon, which was garbage. Green was just short on tanks at the beginning was all.

[Jimjam]

Class BRD CLR DRU ENC MAG MNK NEC PAL RNG ROG SHM SK WAR WIZ
Defense 215 175 200 145 145 252 145 230 200 252 200 230 252 145



According to this resource (https://web.archive.org/web/20010526145355/http://www.jceason.dircon.co.uk/eq/eqskillcaps.htm), for at least part of classic, shaman had better defence skill caps than cleric too. Fair enough, Cleric could wear plate to offset this, but let's be honest - all priests wore a lot of leather and chain during this period (gatorscale, bloodstained tunic, etc) so the plate advantage wasn't maximised by clerics.

I'm not sure if P1999 has these skill caps actually programmed in during the timeline, so this oddity may not be pertinent to our server. The era these are given seems late Kunark, early Velious.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Not sure why people keep saying Shamans can't melee well past 20. They have the same offensive skill cap as warriors sub level 50. Couple that with their ability to haste themselves and buff their strength, they do more white damage than DoT damage until level 40, when mobs get a big boost to HP, AC, and Damage. Shaman DoTs really suck until you get Plague and Envenomed Bolt. They cost a lot of mana, have poor DPM, and get resisted. The priest damage table does suck, but a granite face grinder or poision wind censor will get you to the damage cap just fine, and they have relatively low delay for a 2H weapon.

The reason why non Torpor Shamans can tank well is because of Slow. That spell alone is reducing damage more effectively than the defensive capabilities of a tank. Shamans can also let their pets off tank because their HP pool is pretty good for a pet, and slow allows the doggo to last even longer.

No race is particularly better than the other in terms of outputting raw melee damage, since you can buff yourself anyway. Obviously an Ogre/Troll have more strength, but STR is one of the easiest stats to stack on cheap gear, and a haste item plus self haste is your main source of white damage increases anyway. And a good weapon of course.

I would personally advise against rolling Iksar due to the lack of JBB. I assume you are not twinking your toon to the teeth with an Epic. Barbarians are generally considered very fashionable. I disagree, but that is just my dislike of the kilts. Melee starts to get rough around the time you can use a JBB, and that item is the best leveling tool you can get to solo to 60. Epic is better, but costs about 100k when you can find it on the market.

[Vexenu]

Priest melee is underrated if you can twink them well with decent gear and a nice ratio 2HB. I did it with a Cleric (Dwarf wearing mostly Dwarven Plate). Was very easy going until the high 30s or so. A Shaman who can actually slow mobs, haste himself and regen should be viable in melee until the 50s (or until you get a JBB/epic, as was mentioned).

[Berendar]

Having levelled an Ogre, Troll and Barbarian mostly melee, the stun becomes really annoying in your day to day combat life on the Troll and Barbarian.

Maybe it was the playing all of the races that made it more pronounced whereas you may not notice if you have nothing to compare it to, but going back to a Troll after playing an Ogre as a melee Shaman was very noticeable with the stuns.

[loramin]

Not sure why people keep saying Shamans can't melee well past 20.

Two very different things are being conflated: tanking (ie. standing in front of a mob and taking damage) and dealing melee damage. I can't speak for anyone else, but what I was saying is that Shamans or Clerics (or Druids) can't do meaningful melee damage after (something like) level 20.

And I stand by that statement; again, I used a weapon that doesn't even exist on P99 anymore (a Barbarian Spiritist's' Hammer prior to the proc nerf), and I still couldn't do significant damage relative to my other damage sources. My DoTs and my "best DoT" (ie. pet) just did more, at every level after (roughly) 20.

But I'm certainly not saying is "Shaman should never tank after level 20". Whether or not they should do that has everything to do with how hard the mob is hitting vs. how much mana it would cost to avoid those hits (eg. by rooting instead). And if you are tanking as part of your overall strategy, of course you want to hit the mob with something while you do. But again, that damage will be miniscule compared to what your DoTs/pet do.

[NegaStoat]

I bit into the 'just gotta melee' hype with leveling my shaman initially a long while back, using the traditional budget Poison Wind Censer and as much HP / AC as I could stack on the character. It was rough going, but by picking out low blue level old world mobs and staying patient, reaching level 34 happened. At that point my array of spells + pet allowed me to just level in a more traditional caster fashion, using root, DoT's and DDs, slow, and the pet.

It took me a small bit of time to figure out the best routine of spells and their cast order to be the most efficient vs mob level + HPs they had, and once this was accomplished my kill rate and leveling speed was very rapid. This was on an Iksar Shaman. At level 35 I sold melee oriented gear and picked up effective budget casting gear focused on wisdom, HP and Mana stats along with AC. I kept seeing posts of people stating that they fought in melee with their solo shaman to 50+ and I couldn't figure out the value to it. If you're able to mow exp targets down as fast as a Necromancer or Quad kiting druid of the same level using just spells and the pet, that seems to be the way to go.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Two very different things are being conflated: tanking (ie. standing in front of a mob and taking damage) and dealing melee damage. I can't speak for anyone else, but what I was saying is that Shamans or Clerics (or Druids) can't do meaningful melee damage after (something like) level 20.

And I stand by that statement; again, I used a weapon that doesn't even exist on P99 anymore (a Barbarian Spiritist's' Hammer prior to the proc nerf), and I still couldn't do significant damage relative to my other damage sources. My DoTs and my "best DoT" (ie. pet) just did more, at every level after (roughly) 20.

But I'm certainly not saying is "Shaman should never tank after level 20". Whether or not they should do that has everything to do with how hard the mob is hitting vs. how much mana it would cost to avoid those hits (eg. by rooting instead). And if you are tanking as part of your overall strategy, of course you want to hit the mob with something while you do. But again, that damage will be miniscule compared to what your DoTs/pet do.

This is incorrect. Shaman Melee damage is superior to Shaman DoTs until at least level 40. Shaman DoT DPM is low at lower levels, and they have a decent chance of getting resisted unless you use your resistance debuffs, which cost even more mana and can also be resisted. Healing is more mana efficient since it cannot be resisted, and does not need to be supplemented with other debuffs.

The reason why you had a bad experience with your Barbarian Spiritist Hammer is because the ratio sucks.

At level 34 with Quickness and Silver Chitin Hand Wraps you have 52% Haste. Your max weapon damage level 30+ on the Priest damage table is 26. A Granite face Grinder is a 26/23.7 with 52% Haste, which is a 1.1 ratio. The Spiritist Hammer is a 22/28.3, which is only a 0.78 ratio. You were doing 25% less white damage than you otherwise could have. The proc would not make up for that loss unless you got lucky with RNG.

[Toothed]

As someone else mentioned you can raise your stats with gear and your buffs to a point that your str,sta,agi,dex isn't really gonna be an issue. The main difference you are gonna find is the difference in gear available like the snare neck, JBB, totemic armor, etc.

I would say iksar is a pretty good choice for the extra regen, AC, and being medium sized.

I prefer a troll for Grobb which is like the best town in the game. Trolls also get the regen, can wear plate (totemic) and have SLAM.

[Jimjam]

This is incorrect. Shaman Melee damage is superior to Shaman DoTs until at least level 40. Shaman DoT DPM is low at lower levels, and they have a decent chance of getting resisted unless you use your resistance debuffs, which cost even more mana and can also be resisted. Healing is more mana efficient since it cannot be resisted, and does not need to be supplemented with other debuffs.

The reason why you had a bad experience with your Barbarian Spiritist Hammer is because the ratio sucks.

At level 34 with Quickness and Silver Chitin Hand Wraps you have 52% Haste. Your max weapon damage level 30+ on the Priest damage table is 26. A Granite face Grinder is a 26/23.7 with 52% Haste, which is a 1.1 ratio. The Spiritist Hammer is a 22/28.3, which is only a 0.78 ratio. You were doing 25% less white damage than you otherwise could have. The proc would not make up for that loss unless you got lucky with RNG.

Theoryquesting here, is the hammer better in the context of a 60 shaman facetanking big game while torpored (self slowed, fewer swings so more procs per swing, so procs are a larger portion of dps and mob ac maybe mitigates melee better)?

[Danth]

Keep in mind Loramin's talking about the pre-nerf version of that hammer which had an absurd proc rate.

[loramin]

Keep in mind Loramin's talking about the pre-nerf version of that hammer which had an absurd proc rate.

I think this is key ... but look, I didn't also run a Granite Face Grinder, parse my logs, and compare the two, so I can't swear that the the pre-nerf BSH was superior (I just suspect it was).

All I can say for certain is that I did my absolute best to melee as much as I could with that weapon, which was certainly one of the top melee Shaman weapons ... and I still went back to root/rot (though I would sometimes "joust" with it when a mob was rooted, because again I wanted to use it). And I know it was around 20ish, because I remember doing this in Lake Rathe/South Karana.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

I think this is key ... but look, I didn't also run a Granite Face Grinder, parse my logs, and compare the two, so I can't swear that the the pre-nerf BSH was superior (I just suspect it was).

All I can say for certain is that I did my absolute best to melee as much as I could with that weapon, which was certainly one of the top melee Shaman weapons ... and I still went back to root/rot (though I would sometimes "joust" with it when a mob was rooted, because again I wanted to use it). And I know it was around 20ish, because I remember doing this in Lake Rathe/South Karana.

This doesn't make sense. If the Spiritist Hammer consistently Procs 4 times in two minutes you did over 1000 damage to a single mob, not including the white damage. Mobs level 20-30 basically have 1000 HP or less. That would kill any level 20ish mob in those areas faster than your DoTs. Four envenomed breaths in the same two minutes would deal 800 damage and cost you a staggering 400 mana, which is a lot for that level. It would be way more mana efficient to melee than to spend at least 400 mana per mob, not including roots or resists. Doing the root/rot method would cause a lot more downtime. Casting two walking sleeps in those two minutes to face tank would only cost 120 mana, and heals also only cost 60 each.

To answer JimJams question, you are correct that proc weapons are better at 60 with Torpor. This is because Shaman melee drops off a cliff past level 50. You miss a ton and don't have good damage bonuses, so proc weapons end up doing great damage by comparison. You are also too busy casting a ton of spells to get a lot of melee hits in.

[loramin]

This doesn't make sense. If the Spiritist Hammer consistently Procs 4 times in two minutes you did over 1000 damage to a single mob, not including the white damage. Mobs level 20-30 basically have 1000 HP or less. That would kill any level 20ish mob in those areas faster than your DoTs. Four envenomed breaths in the same two minutes would deal 800 damage and cost you a staggering 400 mana, which is a lot for that level. It would be way more mana efficient to melee than to spend at least 400 mana per mob, not including roots or resists. Doing the root/rot method would cause a lot more downtime. Casting two walking sleeps in those two minutes to face tank would only cost 120 mana, and heals also only cost 60 each.

Look you can theorycraft it all you want, but I'm too lazy to theorycraft back. To be clear, that's not saying your theorycrafting is wrong though.

All I can say is that ultimately your theorycrafting didn't line up with what I experienced in the game ... back when procs worked significantly better than they do today.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Look you can theorycraft it all you want, but I'm too lazy to theorycraft back. To be clear, that's not saying your theorycrafting is wrong though.

All I can say is that ultimately your theorycrafting didn't line up with what I experienced in the game ... back when procs worked significantly better than they do today.

I get that, and I am not trying to claim you didn't have troubles. But I would be willing to bet that was just due to an inefficient strategy or fighting mobs that were too tough, rather than melee being bad. If Spiritist Hammer proced a ton before it was nerfed, and it did at least 250 damage on the lowest end as the wiki claims, you should have been ripping through mobs with the right strategy.

I mostly meleed to my 40s on my Shaman, and I was fighting guards, which tend to be undercons for their level. Melee with slow tanking was quite a bit more efficient than root rotting.

[loramin]

I mostly meleed to my 40s on my Shaman, and I was fighting guards, which tend to be undercons for their level. Melee with slow tanking was quite a bit more efficient than root rotting.

Right, but that is a VERY different statement from "Shaman can deal a significant percentage of their damage via melee at level 40."

Again, I think two different things are being conflated in this thread:

A) pretending your Shaman is a melee class and trying to do significant damage from your weapon (which in my experience stopped working around the 20s, on both my Shaman and Cleric) ... vs.

B) tanking (doing melee damage, but doing a lot more damage from DoTing and letting your pet chew on the mob ... which is something even a Shaman with a rusty spear might want to do at any point in their career)

The melee damage you do is only one factor (and I'd argue it's not even the biggest one) in whether you should be tanking, pet tanking, or root/rotting. Many other factors (how hard the mob hits, how many HP they have, how often they break root, what heal/root/slow spell you have, whether the mob summons, etc.) determine the ideal Shaman style for a given hunting spot.

[DMN]

If you planned to melee from 1-60, troll would probably be a significant peg up from iksar largely due to the snare necklace and because of it, you intentionally focus on fighting mobs that flee and save yourself all the mana from the last 20-25% of the HP of the mob. Additionally, relative to iskar you'd also have access to slam... don't matter for damage but would also interrupt casters(big deal if you are facing them in melee) and if you time it right you can also reduce the melee damage you are taking. (count the seconds between swings and bash just before the mobs swing timer is about to come due).

You can certainly level all the way to 60 meleeing and Iksar. I wouldn't describe it as "efficient" however, troll would be significantly better, but Iksar wouldn't be significantly different from any other race but troll. Other than troll racial stuff, it's all going to come down to your gear = efficiency.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Right, but that is a VERY different statement from "Shaman can deal a significant percentage of their damage via melee at level 40."

Again, I think two different things are being conflated in this thread:

A) pretending your Shaman is a melee class and trying to do significant damage from your weapon (which in my experience stopped working around the 20s, on both my Shaman and Cleric) ... vs.

B) tanking (doing melee damage, but doing a lot more damage from DoTing and letting your pet chew on the mob ... which is something even a Shaman with a rusty spear might want to do at any point in their career)

The melee damage you do is only one factor (and I'd argue it's not even the biggest one) in whether you should be tanking, pet tanking, or root/rotting. Many other factors (how hard the mob hits, how many HP they have, how often they break root, what heal/root/slow spell you have, whether the mob summons, etc.) determine the ideal Shaman style for a given hunting spot.

By necessity the damage dealt would need to be significant, or it wouldn't be more efficient:) I said multiple times Shaman white damage is better than your DoTs at low levels. Now you could argue stacking all versions of your DoTs may kill the mob faster, but then you would waste your entire mana pool, which ends up being a bad strategy in terms of kills per hour.

The caveat I did forget to mention is Shaman melee needs a good weapon and a haste item. I agree root/rotting is better if you have a bad weapon like a rusty spear. I apologize if that wasn't obvious. In your specific scenario with a hyper procing Spiritist Hammer, your problem was certainly strategy, not melee being bad.

The reason why meleeing works so well 1-40 is because mobs are much weaker in terms of damage, hp, and ac. Most of the factors you mentioned don't really apply to most mobs level 1-40. 40 is where shaman melee starts to fall off because level 40 mobs get a huge boost to damage, ac, and hp. You are incorrect that Shamans are not designed for melee. They have the same skill caps as warriors on their weapons skills until level 50, and they have a line of spells (berserk) for the purpose of melee. Druids and Clerics have a lot lower skill cap for weapons skills, which shows a clear design difference between the priest classes. Shamans also get haste, which is a drastic DPS improvent over Clerics and Druids.

[kuuky]

Seems like someone just can't let it go. HMM where have I read that before?

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Seems like someone just can't let it go. HMM where have I read that before?

Correcting bad information is what I am doing. Your not contributing at all, just acting silly.

[clacbec]

on red my shm is fsi ogre .

[loramin]

In your specific scenario with a hyper procing Spiritist Hammer, your problem was certainly strategy, not melee being bad.

Yup, you've got me. Despite playing a Shaman on live to 65+tons of AAs, when I came here I knew absolutely nothing about playing a Shaman. Despite being given a weapon that was so good it no longer exists I was too stupid to use it properly ... you know, by trying to melee mobs (it's hard!). But you and your theorycrafting genius have uncovered my foolish play, and clearly shown how dumb I was.

/s

[loramin]

P.S. Just so we're clear, I'm not saying Shaman melee damage is completely, 100% meaningless.

What I keep saying is that, because Shaman deal significantly less melee damage than their other two damage sources, it's only one factor in the equation of what style you should use (Shaman tank vs. pet tank vs. root/rot; let's pretend Shaman never get charm).

Look, even if we make up numbers and say pet damage = 1/3, melee damage = 1/3, DoT damage = 1/3 ... you still wouldn't want to melee all the time. Why? Because some mobs will hit so hard that if you melee them to get that extra 1/3 damage, you will need far more mana to heal yourself up afterwards (vs. if you just rooted the mob and didn't melee).

If your options are "do 2/3 damage, only have to cast a root or two, and be at ful HP/50m after a fight", or "do 3/3 damage, but wind up completely OOM and not full HP after", it doesn't matter that you can do more damage by meleeing ... you'll get more/faster XP over time by not meleeing, and saving yourself all the mana you would have spent on healing (and slowing the mob, and hasting yourself, and berserking yourself, and casting AC buffs on yourself).

But again, I very suspicious of the idea that at 21+(ish) melee makes up even 1/3 of a Shaman's DPS output. And regardless, it's not even as simple as "how much do I do in melee vs. how much does the mob do?" There are all sorts of other factors, like whether your pet can tank it (pets heal faster than PCs), whether the mob casts (and you want to interrupt it with melee), etc.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Yup, you've got me. Despite playing a Shaman on live to 65+tons of AAs, when I came here I knew absolutely nothing about playing a Shaman. Despite being given a weapon that was so good it no longer exists I was too stupid to use it properly ... you know, by trying to melee mobs (it's hard!). But you and your theorycrafting genius have uncovered my foolish play, and clearly shown how dumb I was.

/s

I am not sure why you are getting offended here. Me saying you had a bad strategy is not me saying you are stupid, or are inexperienced with the game. Even the best of us make mistakes on a 22 year old elf sim that people know everything there is to know about it.

With your experience, you should know how much damage most classes can do around their 20s. It is hardly theory crafting on my part. With the exception of cloth casters, it is pretty easy to do at least 27 white damage per 6 seconds, which is the same amount of damage as envemoned breath, your level 24 poison DoT. I do have a level 24 cleric with Silver Chitin Hand Wraps and a Poison Wind Censor, so I will post a damage log here when I have some time, so you can get the facts. Since it is a cleric, the damage output will be a bit lower due to my lower strength and lower weapon skill caps.

[Jimjam]

In fairness Loramin, I've got a 65+ shaman with some AA on live, but I remember my experience of meleeing on a shaman in live to be completely different to that on p1999.

The mob hp/hit ranges seem correct, but the attack / accuracy / armour class / avoidance feels very different. This isn't due to p1999 mud flation either, I'm talking about my barby shaman in his 20s wearing self made banded with a store bought 2 handed hammer - comparable gear to what us idiots were using in live.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

In fairness Loramin, I've got a 65+ shaman with some AA on live, but I remember my experience of meleeing on a shaman in live to be completely different to that on p1999.

The mob hp/hit ranges seem correct, but the attack / accuracy / armour class / avoidance feels very different. This isn't due to p1999 mud flation either, I'm talking about my barby shaman in his 20s wearing self made banded with a store bought 2 handed hammer - comparable gear to what us idiots were using in live.

Yes, and I believe one important point was lost in our discussion, which was probably my fault. Shaman melee isn't very good if you are running around with banded armor, no haste item, and a weapon with a 0.33 ratio. And I am not trying to argue about how it worked on live. I played a warrior from 1999 to 2005, so I can't say how Shamans worked back then.

I am simply pointing out priest melee, especially Shaman melee, is actually pretty good on P99 with a haste item and a poison wind censor or granite face grinder until your 40s. On P99 it is quite easy to get those items, even as a new player. It isn't like you need to spend 100k to get to a good spot with melee. It typically is better than yout DoTs, which are honestly quite bad until your 40s. But obviously the DoTs are better if you have really bad gear.

[Jimjam]

Yes, and I believe one important point was lost in our discussion, which was probably my fault. Shaman melee isn't very good if you are running around with banded armor, no haste item, and a weapon with a 0.33 ratio. And I am not trying to argue about how it worked on live. I played a warrior from 1999 to 2005, so I can't say how Shamans worked back then.

I am simply pointing out priest melee, especially Shaman melee, is actually pretty good on P99 with a haste item and a poison wind censor or granite face grinder until your 40s. On P99 it is quite easy to get those items, even as a new player. It isn't like you need to spend 100k to get to a good spot with melee. It typically is better than yout DoTs, which are honestly quite bad until your 40s. But obviously the DoTs are better if you have really bad gear.

Honestly, I feel the gear I listed above overperforms on P1999 compared to what it would do on live - and consequently the gear you list is even better again compared to classic times.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Honestly, I feel the gear I listed above overperforms on P1999 compared to what it would do on live - and consequently the gear you list is even better again compared to classic times.

You may be right. All I can do is let people know how it currently works on P99, so they can plan accordingly. With the current prices of those items, their current effectiveness, and the ease at which you can farm the plat to get them, it should be a no brainer to use them to level while soloing. Until your 40s at least.

[Danth]

Your 20's Cleric will have the same weapon skills as your 20's Shaman. While the Cleric ultimately caps lower, they both raise at 4xlevel plus 4 until cap, just the Cleric will cap sooner.

Discussing the Barbarian hammer during the 20's seems moot since its special doesn't work until the 30's.

Final note, a 3:1 ratio weapon would be exceptionally good for classic era. A 20's Shaman in pre-expansion equipment would realistically be using something in the 6/27 to 6/30 range, maybe a 9/35 cold iron morning star or 8/31 ebon war spear if he bought something. Darksea harpoon was far too rare and expensive for self-funded lowbies to practically obtain. Kunark was when you started to see more weapons in the 3:1 range at prices low level players could realistically afford like beetle stinger or slime coated harpoon. Point being: Shaman melee damage output in era-appropriate equipment stinks due to poor weapons, low damage tables, and lack of double attack. With later-era equipment they can do okay for awhile. I think we're all in agreement here so let's not get bogged down arguing over minutiae.

Danth

[loramin]

In fairness Loramin, I've got a 65+ shaman with some AA on live, but I remember my experience of meleeing on a shaman in live to be completely different to that on p1999.

The mob hp/hit ranges seem correct, but the attack / accuracy / armour class / avoidance feels very different. This isn't due to p1999 mud flation either, I'm talking about my barby shaman in his 20s wearing self made banded with a store bought 2 handed hammer - comparable gear to what us idiots were using in live.

I'm sure there are some significant differences ... but I'm talking about Project 1999. The only reason I referenced live was to point out that I wasn't some n00b that didn't know how to play the class when I started here (in fact, I literally have tried to "re-create" Loramin 1.0's experience here with Loramin 2.0, in terms of leveling in many of the same places and such) ... but I'm not talking about live, I'm saying on P99 Shaman melee damage is < 1/3 total damage, at least most of the time, once you get past (roughly) 20.

There's a very simple way anyone who wants to can prove me wrong: parse a level 30 Shaman meleeing something, while also parsing their pet and DoT damage. Since all I have to go on is one subjective experience leveling a Shaman (with a now impossible weapon), I'd certainly welcome more objective evidence.

But until such evidence is presented, I'm sticking to my subjective experience.

Point being: Shaman melee damage output in era-appropriate equipment stinks

Agreed. But even with a BSH at 35 ... my experience was that it too stunk. Well, not stunk (I'd be lying if I said I didn't notice the procs; it's a JBB click at a much lower level!) ... but just not enough to outweigh DoT/pet damage. I still often found it more efficient not to melee as a result, or to do mixtures (eg. trying to "joust" for a proc while root/rotting or pet tanking).

But again, happy to change my mind if someone shows me a parse of (say) a 35 Shaman with a good ratio weapon and haste clearly doing more damage than pet/DoTs.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Your 20's Cleric will have the same weapon skills as your 20's Shaman. While the Cleric ultimately caps lower, they both raise at 4xlevel plus 4 until cap, just the Cleric will cap sooner.

Discussing the Barbarian hammer during the 20's seems moot since its special doesn't work until the 30's.

Final note, a 3:1 ratio weapon would be exceptionally good for classic era. A 20's Shaman in pre-expansion equipment would realistically be using something in the 6/27 to 6/30 range, maybe a 9/35 cold iron morning star or 8/31 ebon war spear if he bought something. Darksea harpoon was far too rare and expensive for self-funded lowbies to practically obtain. Kunark was when you started to see more weapons in the 3:1 range at prices low level players could realistically afford like beetle stinger or slime coated harpoon. Point being: Shaman melee damage output in era-appropriate equipment stinks due to poor weapons, low damage tables, and lack of double attack. With later-era equipment they can do okay for awhile. I think we're all in agreement here so let's not get bogged down arguing over minutiae.

Danth

Agreed. This thread is supposed to be about Shaman melee on P99 in 2021. That is where the discussion keeps going off the rails. I honestly don't care about how it used to work or how it "should work". The answer is Shaman melee is good with the right gear until your 40s on P99 in 2021. People who say otherwise are incorrect. I will post those cleric logs tonight hopefully:)

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Also, I am not sure why Loramin keeps bringing up pets. No where have I said a melee focused Shaman should not be using their pet. When a melee focused Shaman reaches level 34, they use melee and their pet. When I say DoTs, I am referring to Shaman spell DoTs. I understand the inclination to say pets are also DoTs, but I don't normally see people confuse actual DoTs with pets. The point is simply than Shaman spell DoTs are pretty weak until Plague and Envenomed Bolt. They cost a lot of mana and deal low damage. That is one reason why Shaman melee can give low level DoTs a run for their money in terms of comparable DPS.

[Vivitron]

Final note, a 3:1 ratio weapon would be exceptionally good for classic era. A 20's Shaman in pre-expansion equipment would realistically be using something in the 6/27 to 6/30 range, maybe a 9/35 cold iron morning star or 8/31 ebon war spear if he bought something. Darksea harpoon was far too rare and expensive for self-funded lowbies to practically obtain. Kunark was when you started to see more weapons in the 3:1 range at prices low level players could realistically afford like beetle stinger or slime coated harpoon. Point being: Shaman melee damage output in era-appropriate equipment stinks due to poor weapons, low damage tables, and lack of double attack. With later-era equipment they can do okay for awhile. I think we're all in agreement here so let's not get bogged down arguing over minutiae.

Staff of the Observers (12/35) is another one to keep an eye out for if you want to melee on a classic server.

This thread is making me feel nostalgia for my live shaman and the Velium Brawl Stick he was gifted in the 30s or 40s. I didn't move my damage spells to the back of the book, but it sure was worth it to turn on auto attack when I was in melee range.

[Grakken]

Also, I am not sure why Loramin keeps bringing up pets. No where have I said a melee focused Shaman should not be using their pet. When a melee focused Shaman reaches level 34, they use melee and their pet. When I say DoTs, I am referring to Shaman spell DoTs. I understand the inclination to say pets are also DoTs, but I don't normally see people confuse actual DoTs with pets. The point is simply than Shaman spell DoTs are pretty weak until Plague and Envenomed Bolt. They cost a lot of mana and deal low damage. That is one reason why Shaman melee can give low level DoTs a run for their money in terms of comparable DPS.

I'm with Death on this. I think the issue is people keep debating different things.

No gear increases the DPS of DoTs. Only a few pieces of gear allow you to cast more DoTs. Melee DPS varies WILDLY based off of gear.

I think the bridge that gaps peoples different levels that melee falls off is entirely subject to their gear. Melee shaman falls off at 20 if youre in banded and a fine steel spear. Melee falls off at 40 if you're in twink gear.

Shaman DoTs felt worse than nuking to me until EB and plague leveling on green.

[DMN]

I'm with Death on this. I think the issue is people keep debating different things.

No gear increases the DPS of DoTs. Only a few pieces of gear allow you to cast more DoTs. Melee DPS varies WILDLY based off of gear.

I think the bridge that gaps peoples different levels that melee falls off is entirely subject to their gear. Melee shaman falls off at 20 if youre in banded and a fine steel spear. Melee falls off at 40 if you're in twink gear.

Shaman DoTs felt worse than nuking to me until EB and plague leveling on green.

Did you just not buy venom of the snake or something? I still use that on occasion on a level 60 necro.

I find it hard to believe lvl 30+ shaman who are just purely meleeing are killing mobs in under 40 or so seconds.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Here are the logs for my level 24 Cleric going against a level 25 Mob, https://wiki.project1999.com/Deputy_Keld . He is a yellow, and a bit of an undercon for his level. Obviously I would be hitting a blue mob more often. Please note I did slow the mob on my 60 Shaman so I wouldn't have to worry about dying:

[Wed Feb 03 18:48:19 2021] Auto attack on.
[Wed Feb 03 18:48:20 2021] You crush Deputy Keld for 16 points of damage.
[Wed Feb 03 18:48:20 2021] Deputy Keld kicks YOU for 2 points of damage.
[Wed Feb 03 18:48:20 2021] Deputy Keld tries to pierce YOU, but misses!
[Wed Feb 03 18:48:22 2021] You try to crush Deputy Keld, but miss!
[Wed Feb 03 18:48:24 2021] You crush Deputy Keld for 14 points of damage.
[Wed Feb 03 18:48:27 2021] You try to crush Deputy Keld, but Deputy Keld dodges!
[Wed Feb 03 18:48:29 2021] You crush Deputy Keld for 48 points of damage.
[Wed Feb 03 18:48:31 2021] You crush Deputy Keld for 16 points of damage.
[Wed Feb 03 18:48:32 2021] Deputy Keld pierces YOU for 28 points of damage.
[Wed Feb 03 18:48:33 2021] You crush Deputy Keld for 34 points of damage.
[Wed Feb 03 18:48:36 2021] You crush Deputy Keld for 18 points of damage.
[Wed Feb 03 18:48:38 2021] You try to crush Deputy Keld, but Deputy Keld parries!
[Wed Feb 03 18:48:40 2021] You crush Deputy Keld for 26 points of damage.
[Wed Feb 03 18:48:43 2021] You crush Deputy Keld for 20 points of damage.
[Wed Feb 03 18:48:44 2021] Deputy Keld pierces YOU for 23 points of damage.
[Wed Feb 03 18:48:45 2021] Your will is not sufficient to command this weapon.
[Wed Feb 03 18:48:45 2021] You try to crush Deputy Keld, but miss!
[Wed Feb 03 18:48:47 2021] You try to crush Deputy Keld, but Deputy Keld dodges!
[Wed Feb 03 18:48:50 2021] You crush Deputy Keld for 46 points of damage.
[Wed Feb 03 18:48:51 2021] Deputy Keld tries to kick YOU, but misses!
[Wed Feb 03 18:48:52 2021] You crush Deputy Keld for 6 points of damage.
[Wed Feb 03 18:48:54 2021] You try to crush Deputy Keld, but Deputy Keld dodges!
[Wed Feb 03 18:48:56 2021] Deputy Keld pierces YOU for 44 points of damage.
[Wed Feb 03 18:48:56 2021] You try to crush Deputy Keld, but miss!
[Wed Feb 03 18:48:59 2021] You try to crush Deputy Keld, but miss!
[Wed Feb 03 18:49:01 2021] You crush Deputy Keld for 41 points of damage.
[Wed Feb 03 18:49:03 2021] You try to crush Deputy Keld, but miss!
[Wed Feb 03 18:49:06 2021] You crush Deputy Keld for 40 points of damage.
[Wed Feb 03 18:49:08 2021] Deputy Keld pierces YOU for 2 points of damage.
[Wed Feb 03 18:49:08 2021] You have become better at Dodge! (61)
[Wed Feb 03 18:49:08 2021] Deputy Keld tries to pierce YOU, but misses!
[Wed Feb 03 18:49:08 2021] You try to crush Deputy Keld, but Deputy Keld ripostes!
[Wed Feb 03 18:49:10 2021] You crush Deputy Keld for 40 points of damage.
[Wed Feb 03 18:49:13 2021] You crush Deputy Keld for 40 points of damage.
[Wed Feb 03 18:49:15 2021] You try to crush Deputy Keld, but miss!
[Wed Feb 03 18:49:17 2021] You try to crush Deputy Keld, but miss!
[Wed Feb 03 18:49:19 2021] You try to crush Deputy Keld, but miss!
[Wed Feb 03 18:49:20 2021] You have become better at Dodge! (62)
[Wed Feb 03 18:49:20 2021] Deputy Keld pierces YOU for 52 points of damage.
[Wed Feb 03 18:49:22 2021] You crush Deputy Keld for 36 points of damage.
[Wed Feb 03 18:49:22 2021] Deputy Keld bashes YOU for 9 points of damage.
[Wed Feb 03 18:49:24 2021] You crush Deputy Keld for 40 points of damage.
[Wed Feb 03 18:49:26 2021] You try to crush Deputy Keld, but miss!
[Wed Feb 03 18:49:29 2021] Your will is not sufficient to command this weapon.
[Wed Feb 03 18:49:29 2021] You try to crush Deputy Keld, but miss!
[Wed Feb 03 18:49:31 2021] You try to crush Deputy Keld, but miss!
[Wed Feb 03 18:49:32 2021] Deputy Keld pierces YOU for 41 points of damage.
[Wed Feb 03 18:49:32 2021] Deputy Keld tries to pierce YOU, but misses!
[Wed Feb 03 18:49:33 2021] Deputy Keld tries to pierce YOU, but misses!
[Wed Feb 03 18:49:33 2021] You try to crush Deputy Keld, but Deputy Keld ripostes!
[Wed Feb 03 18:49:36 2021] You try to crush Deputy Keld, but miss!
[Wed Feb 03 18:49:38 2021] You try to crush Deputy Keld, but miss!
[Wed Feb 03 18:49:40 2021] You crush Deputy Keld for 18 points of damage.
[Wed Feb 03 18:49:42 2021] You crush Deputy Keld for 22 points of damage.
[Wed Feb 03 18:49:44 2021] Deputy Keld tries to pierce YOU, but misses!
[Wed Feb 03 18:49:45 2021] You crush Deputy Keld for 12 points of damage.
[Wed Feb 03 18:49:47 2021] You crush Deputy Keld for 42 points of damage.
[Wed Feb 03 18:49:49 2021] You crush Deputy Keld for 6 points of damage.
[Wed Feb 03 18:49:52 2021] You try to crush Deputy Keld, but miss!
[Wed Feb 03 18:49:54 2021] Deputy Keld kicks YOU for 4 points of damage.
[Wed Feb 03 18:49:54 2021] Your will is not sufficient to command this weapon.
[Wed Feb 03 18:49:54 2021] You crush Deputy Keld for 40 points of damage.
[Wed Feb 03 18:49:56 2021] Deputy Keld pierces YOU for 15 points of damage.
[Wed Feb 03 18:49:56 2021] Deputy Keld pierces YOU for 33 points of damage.
[Wed Feb 03 18:49:56 2021] You crush Deputy Keld for 32 points of damage.
[Wed Feb 03 18:49:59 2021] You crush Deputy Keld for 18 points of damage.
[Wed Feb 03 18:50:01 2021] You crush Deputy Keld for 8 points of damage.
[Wed Feb 03 18:50:03 2021] You crush Deputy Keld for 2 points of damage.
[Wed Feb 03 18:50:05 2021] You crush Deputy Keld for 36 points of damage.
[Wed Feb 03 18:50:08 2021] You try to crush Deputy Keld, but miss!
[Wed Feb 03 18:50:10 2021] You try to crush Deputy Keld, but miss!
[Wed Feb 03 18:50:12 2021] You crush Deputy Keld for 40 points of damage.
[Wed Feb 03 18:50:15 2021] You try to crush Deputy Keld, but miss!
[Wed Feb 03 18:50:17 2021] You try to crush Deputy Keld, but miss!
[Wed Feb 03 18:50:19 2021] You try to crush Deputy Keld, but miss!
[Wed Feb 03 18:50:21 2021] You try to crush Deputy Keld, but miss!
[Wed Feb 03 18:50:24 2021] You crush Deputy Keld for 38 points of damage.
[Wed Feb 03 18:50:26 2021] You try to crush Deputy Keld, but miss!
[Wed Feb 03 18:50:28 2021] You crush Deputy Keld for 26 points of damage.
[Wed Feb 03 18:50:31 2021] You crush Deputy Keld for 32 points of damage.
[Wed Feb 03 18:50:31 2021] You have slain Deputy Keld!

As you can see, I did at least 815 damage within 2 minutes and 11 seconds. At level 24, a Shaman's best DoT is https://wiki.project1999.com/Envenomed_Breath . To kill the same mob with Envenomed Breath, you would need to cast it four times. This would take a total of 28 ticks, which is 168 seconds, or 2 minutes and 48 seconds. My Cleric did more DPS with white damage than the level 24 DoT, using Silver Chitin Hand Wraps and a Poison Wind Censor.

I don't have a 30s priest to do a similar test, but remember Shamans get a 30% haste at level 29, and a damage table boost at 30, both of which are considerable increases to DPS.

[greenspectre]

Here are the logs for my level 24 Cleric going against a level 25 Mob, https://wiki.project1999.com/Deputy_Keld . He is a yellow, and a bit of an undercon for his level. Obviously I would be hitting a blue mob more often. Please note I did slow the mob on my 60 Shaman so I wouldn't have to worry about dying:

[Wed Feb 03 18:48:19 2021] Auto attack on.
[Wed Feb 03 18:48:20 2021] You crush Deputy Keld for 16 points of damage.
[Wed Feb 03 18:48:20 2021] Deputy Keld kicks YOU for 2 points of damage.
[Wed Feb 03 18:48:20 2021] Deputy Keld tries to pierce YOU, but misses!
[Wed Feb 03 18:48:22 2021] You try to crush Deputy Keld, but miss!
[Wed Feb 03 18:48:24 2021] You crush Deputy Keld for 14 points of damage.
[Wed Feb 03 18:48:27 2021] You try to crush Deputy Keld, but Deputy Keld dodges!
[Wed Feb 03 18:48:29 2021] You crush Deputy Keld for 48 points of damage.
[Wed Feb 03 18:48:31 2021] You crush Deputy Keld for 16 points of damage.
[Wed Feb 03 18:48:32 2021] Deputy Keld pierces YOU for 28 points of damage.
[Wed Feb 03 18:48:33 2021] You crush Deputy Keld for 34 points of damage.
[Wed Feb 03 18:48:36 2021] You crush Deputy Keld for 18 points of damage.
[Wed Feb 03 18:48:38 2021] You try to crush Deputy Keld, but Deputy Keld parries!
[Wed Feb 03 18:48:40 2021] You crush Deputy Keld for 26 points of damage.
[Wed Feb 03 18:48:43 2021] You crush Deputy Keld for 20 points of damage.
[Wed Feb 03 18:48:44 2021] Deputy Keld pierces YOU for 23 points of damage.
[Wed Feb 03 18:48:45 2021] Your will is not sufficient to command this weapon.
[Wed Feb 03 18:48:45 2021] You try to crush Deputy Keld, but miss!
[Wed Feb 03 18:48:47 2021] You try to crush Deputy Keld, but Deputy Keld dodges!
[Wed Feb 03 18:48:50 2021] You crush Deputy Keld for 46 points of damage.
[Wed Feb 03 18:48:51 2021] Deputy Keld tries to kick YOU, but misses!
[Wed Feb 03 18:48:52 2021] You crush Deputy Keld for 6 points of damage.
[Wed Feb 03 18:48:54 2021] You try to crush Deputy Keld, but Deputy Keld dodges!
[Wed Feb 03 18:48:56 2021] Deputy Keld pierces YOU for 44 points of damage.
[Wed Feb 03 18:48:56 2021] You try to crush Deputy Keld, but miss!
[Wed Feb 03 18:48:59 2021] You try to crush Deputy Keld, but miss!
[Wed Feb 03 18:49:01 2021] You crush Deputy Keld for 41 points of damage.
[Wed Feb 03 18:49:03 2021] You try to crush Deputy Keld, but miss!
[Wed Feb 03 18:49:06 2021] You crush Deputy Keld for 40 points of damage.
[Wed Feb 03 18:49:08 2021] Deputy Keld pierces YOU for 2 points of damage.
[Wed Feb 03 18:49:08 2021] You have become better at Dodge! (61)
[Wed Feb 03 18:49:08 2021] Deputy Keld tries to pierce YOU, but misses!
[Wed Feb 03 18:49:08 2021] You try to crush Deputy Keld, but Deputy Keld ripostes!
[Wed Feb 03 18:49:10 2021] You crush Deputy Keld for 40 points of damage.
[Wed Feb 03 18:49:13 2021] You crush Deputy Keld for 40 points of damage.
[Wed Feb 03 18:49:15 2021] You try to crush Deputy Keld, but miss!
[Wed Feb 03 18:49:17 2021] You try to crush Deputy Keld, but miss!
[Wed Feb 03 18:49:19 2021] You try to crush Deputy Keld, but miss!
[Wed Feb 03 18:49:20 2021] You have become better at Dodge! (62)
[Wed Feb 03 18:49:20 2021] Deputy Keld pierces YOU for 52 points of damage.
[Wed Feb 03 18:49:22 2021] You crush Deputy Keld for 36 points of damage.
[Wed Feb 03 18:49:22 2021] Deputy Keld bashes YOU for 9 points of damage.
[Wed Feb 03 18:49:24 2021] You crush Deputy Keld for 40 points of damage.
[Wed Feb 03 18:49:26 2021] You try to crush Deputy Keld, but miss!
[Wed Feb 03 18:49:29 2021] Your will is not sufficient to command this weapon.
[Wed Feb 03 18:49:29 2021] You try to crush Deputy Keld, but miss!
[Wed Feb 03 18:49:31 2021] You try to crush Deputy Keld, but miss!
[Wed Feb 03 18:49:32 2021] Deputy Keld pierces YOU for 41 points of damage.
[Wed Feb 03 18:49:32 2021] Deputy Keld tries to pierce YOU, but misses!
[Wed Feb 03 18:49:33 2021] Deputy Keld tries to pierce YOU, but misses!
[Wed Feb 03 18:49:33 2021] You try to crush Deputy Keld, but Deputy Keld ripostes!
[Wed Feb 03 18:49:36 2021] You try to crush Deputy Keld, but miss!
[Wed Feb 03 18:49:38 2021] You try to crush Deputy Keld, but miss!
[Wed Feb 03 18:49:40 2021] You crush Deputy Keld for 18 points of damage.
[Wed Feb 03 18:49:42 2021] You crush Deputy Keld for 22 points of damage.
[Wed Feb 03 18:49:44 2021] Deputy Keld tries to pierce YOU, but misses!
[Wed Feb 03 18:49:45 2021] You crush Deputy Keld for 12 points of damage.
[Wed Feb 03 18:49:47 2021] You crush Deputy Keld for 42 points of damage.
[Wed Feb 03 18:49:49 2021] You crush Deputy Keld for 6 points of damage.
[Wed Feb 03 18:49:52 2021] You try to crush Deputy Keld, but miss!
[Wed Feb 03 18:49:54 2021] Deputy Keld kicks YOU for 4 points of damage.
[Wed Feb 03 18:49:54 2021] Your will is not sufficient to command this weapon.
[Wed Feb 03 18:49:54 2021] You crush Deputy Keld for 40 points of damage.
[Wed Feb 03 18:49:56 2021] Deputy Keld pierces YOU for 15 points of damage.
[Wed Feb 03 18:49:56 2021] Deputy Keld pierces YOU for 33 points of damage.
[Wed Feb 03 18:49:56 2021] You crush Deputy Keld for 32 points of damage.
[Wed Feb 03 18:49:59 2021] You crush Deputy Keld for 18 points of damage.
[Wed Feb 03 18:50:01 2021] You crush Deputy Keld for 8 points of damage.
[Wed Feb 03 18:50:03 2021] You crush Deputy Keld for 2 points of damage.
[Wed Feb 03 18:50:05 2021] You crush Deputy Keld for 36 points of damage.
[Wed Feb 03 18:50:08 2021] You try to crush Deputy Keld, but miss!
[Wed Feb 03 18:50:10 2021] You try to crush Deputy Keld, but miss!
[Wed Feb 03 18:50:12 2021] You crush Deputy Keld for 40 points of damage.
[Wed Feb 03 18:50:15 2021] You try to crush Deputy Keld, but miss!
[Wed Feb 03 18:50:17 2021] You try to crush Deputy Keld, but miss!
[Wed Feb 03 18:50:19 2021] You try to crush Deputy Keld, but miss!
[Wed Feb 03 18:50:21 2021] You try to crush Deputy Keld, but miss!
[Wed Feb 03 18:50:24 2021] You crush Deputy Keld for 38 points of damage.
[Wed Feb 03 18:50:26 2021] You try to crush Deputy Keld, but miss!
[Wed Feb 03 18:50:28 2021] You crush Deputy Keld for 26 points of damage.
[Wed Feb 03 18:50:31 2021] You crush Deputy Keld for 32 points of damage.
[Wed Feb 03 18:50:31 2021] You have slain Deputy Keld!

As you can see, I did at least 815 damage within 2 minutes and 11 seconds. At level 24, a Shaman's best DoT is https://wiki.project1999.com/Envenomed_Breath . To kill the same mob with Envenomed Breath, you would need to cast it four times. This would take a total of 28 ticks, which is 168 seconds, or 2 minutes and 48 seconds. My Cleric did more DPS with white damage than the level 24 DoT, using Silver Chitin Hand Wraps and a Poison Wind Censor.

I don't have a 30s priest to do a similar test, but remember Shamans get a 30% haste at level 29, and a damage table boost at 30, both of which are considerable increases to DPS.

How did you melee something with your cleric while also slowing it with your shaman tho? The ol' quick-swap?

[DeathsSilkyMist]

How did you melee something with your cleric while also slowing it with your shaman tho? The ol' quick-swap?

Yep! Slowed and rooted the mob in the same place my cleric was parked. Camped, then logged into my cleric and started fighting.

[greenspectre]

Yep! Slowed and rooted the mob in the same place my cleric was parked. Camped, then logged into my cleric and started fighting.

So what you're saying is...

Shamans can powerlevel their other toons.

[loramin]

Here are the logs for my level 24 Cleric going against a level 25 Mob, https://wiki.project1999.com/Deputy_Keld . He is a yellow, and a bit of an undercon for his level. Obviously I would be hitting a blue mob more often. Please note I did slow the mob on my 60 Shaman so I wouldn't have to worry about dying:

...

As you can see, I did at least 815 damage within 2 minutes and 11 seconds. At level 24, a Shaman's best DoT is https://wiki.project1999.com/Envenomed_Breath . To kill the same mob with Envenomed Breath, you would need to cast it four times. This would take a total of 28 ticks, which is 168 seconds, or 2 minutes and 48 seconds. My Cleric did more DPS with white damage than the level 24 DoT, using Silver Chitin Hand Wraps and a Poison Wind Censor.

I don't have a 30s priest to do a similar test, but remember Shamans get a 30% haste at level 29, and a damage table boost at 30, both of which are considerable increases to DPS.

First off, let me say that I very much appreciate the raw, objective data. I'm not sure a 2 min log is a truly statistically significant dataset ... but it's way more productive than everyone (myself included) who offered only their subjective experience :)

Looking at your data/calculations though, I see one key omission: we Shaman have two DoT lines, not one:

Envenomed Bolt: 30 + 27/ 6s for 42s = 219/42s = 5.2 DPS
Affliction: 30 + 6/6s for 126s = 156/126s = 1.2 DPS
Total DoT damage: 5.2 + 1.2 = 6.4 DPS

Melee: 815 damage/131s = 5.2 + 1.23 = 6.2 DPS

So unless 6.2 > 6.4 ... your data supports my point :D

But look, as I keep trying to say, melee damage doesn't tell the whole story. There are three viable Shaman solo styles (modulo charm), and that the "right" one will vary. The Shaman's melee damage output does influence their strategy: a Shaman with a Granite Face Grinder and a Cloak of Flame will want to melee more than the Shaman with the rusty spear ... but in both cases that melee damage is only one part of the equation.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

So what you're saying is...

Shamans can powerlevel their other toons.

Yes! But you do need to use a high level Slow, ideally https://wiki.project1999.com/Turgur%27s_Insects . This is because the lower level slows have a much shorter duration, and it takes at least 45 seconds to camp and log back in to another toon. That means most slows would already basically be worn off by the time you start fighting on your other toon. With Turgur's Insects you can basically pre-slow the mobs you want your lower level to fight, root them so they don't interrupt your camping, and then swap. Root usually wears off when a character zones/logs out, but not always. I would say it is a 50% chance as to whether or not it wears off. But the important thing is getting the slow landed. Many classes can handle breaking the camp, or potentially tanking multiple mobs slowed at 75%.

First off, let me say that I very much appreciate the raw, objective data. I'm not sure a 2 min log is a truly statistically significant dataset ... but it's way more productive than everyone (myself included) who offered only their subjective experience :)

Looking at your data/calculations though, I see one key omission: we Shaman have two DoT lines, not one:

Envenomed Bolt: 30 + 27/ 6s for 42s = 219/42s = 5.2 DPS
Affliction: 30 + 6/6s for 126s = 156/126s = 1.2 DPS
Total DoT damage: 5.2 + 1.2 = 6.4 DPS

Melee: 815 damage/131s = 5.2 + 1.23 = 6.2 DPS

So unless 6.2 > 6.4 ... your data supports my point :D

But look, as I keep trying to say, melee damage doesn't tell the whole story. There are three viable Shaman solo styles (modulo charm), and that the "right" one will vary. The Shaman's melee damage output does influence their strategy: a Shaman with a Granite Face Grinder and a Cloak of Flame will want to melee more than the Shaman with the rusty spear ... but in both cases that melee damage is only one part of the equation.

Hehe I try to post data when I have the time:)

I did disprove your point. Your claim was that melee is miniscule, such as 30% of your total damage or less. 6.2 is very close to 6.4 (over 90%), and as I said at the top, I was fighting a yellow mob. This means I will naturally miss more. If I was fighting a level 20 or 21 mob, I would probably be more around 6.5. Also remember my Cleric is a Human, so a Troll/Ogre/Barbarian with a STR buff would increase damage a bit as well. I also mention that a level 30 Shaman gets a big boost in DPS with Quickness (30% Haste) and the damage table increase. They also get a better slow, which means less damage taken while meleeing.

I did not forget about the plague line. The issue with the lower level plague spells is it just does such little damage it usually isn't worth casting. 3 Envenomed Breaths + 1 Plague is going to do 813 damage total, which wouldn't kill the mob above. You would still need to hit it once or twice with melee. And since Plague needs a full 2.1 minutes to deal it's damage, you wouldn't be saving much time. At best you would get back to the same time it would take to kill the mob with melee. A yellow mob would also have a good chance at resisting those spells, which you aren't taking into account. Melee cannot be resisted, so it is also more consistent.

3 Envenomed Breaths + 1 Plague costs you 375 mana. On my Cleric with decent twink gear, I only have something like 650 mana. That means you are spending over half your mana pool on one kill. Since Cannibalize is around half mana for HP, you would need to cannibalize at least 500 HP to mostly get your mana back from that fight. 500 HP is also over 50% of your HP pool at that level, so at the end of the day you are taking about the same damage, either from the mob or from cannibalize.

I do not have a 30ish Shaman to be able to provide raw data on average damage taken face tanking vs. cannibalizing, but I did level my Shaman from 1-60 in 2016-2017 using mostly melee until my 40s. I have very clear memory of Meleeing and slow tanking being more HP/Mana efficient than root/rotting. This is because resistances are less of a factor. Slow costs a lot less mana than the number of DoTs needed to kill the mob, so resistances aren't as big of a deal there. Heals are unresistable, so you do not need to worry about that at all. And with face tanking, you only need to root if you are trying to prevent the monster from running into other mobs, so you save mana on roots too.

[Snaggles]

I didn't read all the past entries so excuse me if I'm missing one of your points.

A "Melee shaman" certainly depends on what you are killing and your gear. Early spells are horrid so you do a lot of plunking. Later your spells get better but the mobs hit harder. I found a spot where I only needed to kill 2 guards every 6 mins so affliction/tainted rotting with an occasional DD or two was the ideal way to keep them down. Mind you, I had horrible gear so every hit I took I considered a 50% mana drain in my mid 30's. At least it taught root management.

Now take that same scenario, give the player unlimited mobs to pull and a fungi with real haste and a GFG (or whatever) and the outcome changes dramatically. Some players will even burn DS pots so the window for meleeing stuff even up to 50 can be quite efficient. You do end up face-clicking/tanking mobs at times into the high 50's and torp solo killers live in this zone but mainly based on how amazing torp/slow work compared to root.

I don't think with the current state of the game any sham is unable to do this based on race. There is an argument even with the current state of FSI that an ogre is 1/3rd more efficient. That said, with the way procs work and how JBB clicks won't impact that ratio so long as the melee button is flashing I think the best JBB weapon is likely a Barbarian mallet. The higher the mob you are fighting the less likely you will hit with your dismal melee stats or at least for a decent amount of white damage. Meanwhile a 260dd or whatever proc is very solid extra damage; its basically a double JBB click.

All this to said, I will not die on a hill for any of these opinions :). My sham has been perpetually 59, Lol.

[loramin]

Wall of text

I showed you very clearly how DoT damage for the example you provided was greater than melee damage, ie. > 1/2. It's impossible for me to show that melee damage was <1/3 though, because you used a Cleric and didn't provide any pet damage (ie. 1/3 of the data).

Now you can cherry pick the data by arguing over which spells to use, or you can go find a new parse of a level 27 vs. a very low blue ... or whatever. Changing the goalposts won't change the blatantly obvious fact that as a caster Shaman are going to generally do more damage with spells than melee (especially the higher level you get).

I'll say it one last time, and then I'm done with this thread: there are three Shaman play styles, and they all have value. Which one is optimal has to do with tons of factors; your melee damage output is only one.

If you weigh all of those factors, you will undoubtedly come to the conclusion that tanking for every mob you ever face is sub-optimal (even with a great melee weapon and haste). The details will vary, but I'm still convinced that as a caster class Shaman follow the general pattern of all casters: the more your level goes up, the more your melee damage becomes less and less of your total DPS. Hell, as Snaggles reminded me, from 45+ it's guaranteed Shaman melee damage will be the minority (unless you are an Iksar, sorry), because there is no weapon in the game with the DPS to match the JBB.

Don't play a Shaman (or any Priest) if you want to beat on things and have that beating be meaningful for your character's career: play a hybrid.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

I showed you very clearly how DoT damage for the example you provided was greater than melee damage, ie. > 1/2. It's impossible for me to show that melee damage was <1/3 though, because you used a Cleric and didn't provide any pet damage (ie. 1/3 of the data).

Now you can cherry pick the data by arguing over which spells to use, or you can go find a new parse of a level 27 vs. a very low blue ... or whatever. Changing the goalposts won't change the blatantly obvious fact that as a caster Shaman are going to generally do more damage with spells than melee (especially the higher level you get).

I'll say it one last time, and then I'm done with this thread: there are three Shaman play styles, and they all have value. Which one is optimal has to do with tons of factors; your melee damage output is only one.

If you weigh all of those factors, you will undoubtedly come to the conclusion that tanking for every mob you ever face is sub-optimal (even with a great melee weapon and haste). The details will vary, but I'm still convinced that as a caster class Shaman follow the general pattern of all casters: the more your level goes up, the more your melee damage becomes less and less of your total DPS. Hell, as Snaggles reminded me, from 45+ it's guaranteed Shaman melee damage will be the minority (unless you are an Iksar, sorry), because there is no weapon in the game with the DPS to match the JBB.

Don't play a Shaman (or any Priest) if you want to beat on things and have that beating be meaningful for your character's career: play a hybrid.

I am not going to let you keep moving the conversation and the goal posts to try and keep your self as being "right":) Please just admit you were wrong on your previous points, so we can move on, and you can help people with the proper information. Let me quote you all the times you talked about how much Priest melee damage is "supposed to do":

I'm saying on P99 Shaman melee damage is < 1/3 total damage, at least most of the time, once you get past (roughly) 20.

Right, but that is a VERY different statement from "Shaman can deal a significant percentage of their damage via melee at level 40."

Again, I think two different things are being conflated in this thread:

A) pretending your Shaman is a melee class and trying to do significant damage from your weapon (which in my experience stopped working around the 20s, on both my Shaman and Cleric) ... vs.



Look, even if we make up numbers and say pet damage = 1/3, melee damage = 1/3, DoT damage = 1/3 ... you still wouldn't want to melee all the time. Why? Because some mobs will hit so hard that if you melee them to get that extra 1/3 damage, you will need far more mana to heal yourself up afterwards (vs. if you just rooted the mob and didn't melee).


Those are just three examples of where you claimed a Shaman's melee damage past 20 would be 30% or less. This just isn't the case. 6.2 (probably a bit higher in most cases) vs. 6.4 is above 90%, and well beyond 30%. Your idea is just false.

You keep going back to pets, but that is irrelevant in this conversation. There is no situation in which a Shaman who melees would not use a pet vs. a Shaman who root/rots. There is no reason to include them in the calculation, because they will be there regardless. We only need to compare Melee vs. SPELL DoTs.

You also bring up the point about Shaman melee past 45. I have said repeatedly in this thread Shaman melee starts to fall off in the 40s, so I am not sure why you are bringing it up, I never claimed otherwise.

If you think a Cleric fighting a yellow mob that has MORE AC than a normal mob of that level is "Cherry Picking", you simply do not understand melee mechanics on P99 very well. Most mobs will parse the same way in the lower levels, unless they are specifically an undercon, like a dungeon boss.

You also keep dodging my point about resistances:) They do play a factor in DPS and recovery time, which significantly affects kills per hour in solo situations.

[Danth]

There is an argument even with the current state of FSI that an ogre is 1/3rd more efficient.

Having watched Ogre and Barbarian Shaman literally race each other doing West Wastes dragons with the killspeed difference being mere seconds, I'd like to see that argument.

Ogre is funny, and its largest effect appears psychological: There are players who think picking Ogre turns 'em into some sort of Norrathian super hero. It isn't real, but because they think it's real, they end up doing more with the Ogre than they'd even attempt otherwise. Remember that "hidden stats" guy from a few years ago? They're out there.

Danth

[Crede]

Having watched Ogre and Barbarian Shaman literally race each other doing West Wastes dragons with the killspeed difference being mere seconds, I'd like to see that argument.

Ogre is funny, and its largest effect appears psychological: There are players who think picking Ogre turns 'em into some sort of Norrathian super hero. It isn't real, but because they think it's real, they end up doing more with the Ogre than they'd even attempt otherwise. Remember that "hidden stats" guy from a few years ago? They're out there.

Danth

There's no evidence out there that an Ogre can kill anything a non-ogre can't, but having played eligible Ogre classes as both an Ogre/Non-ogre the advantage is most certainly real, especially at 60 when you're done leveling.

https://i.imgur.com/3ydM93g.jpg

[Snaggles]

Having watched Ogre and Barbarian Shaman literally race each other doing West Wastes dragons with the killspeed difference being mere seconds, I'd like to see that argument.

I mean...it's not MY argument :) . I just know it is one.

Personally I'm a pick what you like the look of the best, kind of gamer. Hence the erudite paladin. Hell, half the time I can hardly see at night.

[Danth]

I mean...it's not MY argument :)

Right, to clear up any confusion--I did not mean to imply it was your argument. I was only asking you to relay the particulars because you have heard it and I have not. If you don't want your forum handle associated with such absurdity, I understand.

Crede: I ain't claiming Ogre doesn't have a modest advantage--it does, on the order of a few per cent as demonstrated through testing such as that done by Shamwowi. However, the specific "1/3 more" quoted claim seems absurd unless it references some very specific, cherry-picked situation, so it peaked my interest.

Danth

[Snaggles]

I understand that FSI was changed so that rather than being "immune" ogres in one of the three bash scenarios they are not stunned. That was the nod to the 1/3rd scenario.

IIRC:
Bashed and stunned (ogre)
Bashed and interrupted (all vulnerable)
Bash and just damaged/not interrupted (none vulnerable)

Frankly, rolling torp with a mob slowed 75% with a bash timer on like 40 seconds if you die from not being an ogre there are other factors more likely to kill you. Your ISP, mob melee RNG, a random fizzle, that 2nd whiskey but how so delicious, etc.

All that said, glad we have added the legal footnotes. :)

Note: Yes poor phrasing on my behalf. NOT 1/3rd more efficient. 1/3rd more efficient at not getting bashed stunned. So yea...fractions of a percent if that, of overall efficiency. Likely never realized.

[DMN]

if the sunken cost fallacy and confirmation bias had a baby:

There's no evidence out there that an Ogre can kill anything a non-ogre can't, but having played eligible Ogre classes as both an Ogre/Non-ogre the advantage is most certainly real, especially at 60 when you're done leveling.

[Foxplay]

Personally I wouldn't waste your time trying to make a class level or play in a way it's not meant to. Even if you do race is not going to matter as much as gear. And even then even with all the twink gear possible a melee shaman or melee cleric or any caster class is still going to be very lack luster

As for endgame again race is not as important as gear. A barb shaman with raid gear and 1k+ AC is going to have an easier time than an ogre shaman with crap gear and junk AC

Secondly at endgame the best shamans are the ones that can keep up with constantly casting and chaining spells while generating Mana and keeping torpor always up.

TLDR; pick which race you like to look at. Worry about gear and later on patience with forever casting

[mattydef]

I leveled my Shaman to 50 using primarily melee. It was fun and I felt like it was pretty efficient especially once I got pet and haste spell. He's an Iksar. Not majorly twinked but I had 21% worn haste, a PWC till around level 25 or 30 and then 30/36 Velium brawlstick after that. Iksar regen BP. Really enjoyed leveling him up!