Harm Touch should have been a lifetap

[chevy79bu]

That is all...

[Danth]

There's a lot of could have/should have in this game. It's a consequence of EQ being an early example of its type.

Danth

[Naethyn]

Warriors and knights should get block with a shield instead of monks.

[Gustoo]

Lay hands should have been a 1 time dmg shield to the healed player, so next thing to damage within 5 seconds gets blasted by blinding light?

After extensive research all aspects of classic everquest are perfect forever.

Amen

;)

[Jimjam]

Halflings should have got bristlebane shadow knights.

[Tunabros]

Halflings should have got bristlebane shadow knights.

or gnomes

really wish we can have gnome SKs

[Jimjam]

Betox gnome sk in luclin. So nearly classic! I don’t think you even had to buy the expansion to unlock the combo.

Halflings got bristlebane paladins iirc. Didn’t make sense; none of their spells seem like jokes/pranks. Not like the electobuzzer handshake harm touch, ‘oops I farted’ disease cloud or ‘ack I died’ feign death. Shoulda been sk!

[Tunabros]

Betox gnome sk in luclin. So nearly classic! I don’t think you even had to buy the expansion to unlock the combo.

Halflings got bristlebane paladins iirc. Didn’t make sense; none of their spells seem like jokes/pranks. Not like the electobuzzer handshake harm touch, ‘oops I farted’ disease cloud or ‘ack I died’ feign death. Shoulda been sk!

ok i want to try out a TLP now lol

[Jibartik]

Or deal your HP total to the creature I always thought. Like whatever lay hands does but opposite. But a life tap would be better too lol.

It’s way crappier compared to lay hands. I mean except for pvp.

[Ennewi]

Agreed. It keeps with the theme of the class. Not just doing direct damage, but taking something vital in the process. Harm Tap would have been about shoulder to shoulder with LH. If desperate for HP, SKs could have simply summoned an eye and harm tapped it to reduce downtime significantly, or used it while in combat to potentially swing the fight, assuming no resist. One problem with that is, SK NPCs would have needed changing, having them use Harm Tap when low HP instead of at the start of a fight. That would have taken away the suicide use of flimsy low level pets against NPC HT. The thinking behind Harm Touch seemed to be more as an opening attack than anything, making it the opposite of Lay Hands. But SKs weren't the high damage dealers everyone assumed they were back during release, they were tanks, more defensive by design. Interestingly enough, Rogues also weren't supposed to be DPS, at least not to the extent the ended up becoming, but a kind of CC class; however, given that traps and the ability to disarm traps both had no great impact on gameplay, Rogues were moved into a more assassin-type role.

Shields should have had proc effects and allowed for block when equipped, with bash including a chance to either disarm or knock prone. Affected NPCs could have used the kneel emote animation to appear prone, remaining in it for a short duration, or they could have fallen to the ground using the feign/death animation.

[xmaerx]

Because SK already don't dunk on Paladins hard enough :p

[Ennewi]

Because SK already don't dunk on Paladins hard enough :p

Innoruuk's Curse outperforms Fiery Defender for longevity, but then there's always the Palladius Axe for both classes. 1v1 in the arena, Paladin still has more advantages. In most any other zone, sure, the advantage goes to SK who can just FD mobs onto the Paladin endlessly but the win would have an asterisk beside it.

Lifetaps? Resisted. Harm Touch? Resisted. Dots? Dispelled/cured.

SK snare should not have only decreased the movement speed of their target but outright stolen it, increasing their own. Siphoning ATK could have instead siphoned attack speed, slowing the target while also giving the SK haste from doing so. Even if only for a short duration, like snare, it still would have made the class that much more of a self-sufficient threat. And that slow/haste, even if diminished, would have compensated for a lack of root or areas to fear kite.

[xmaerx]

Lol

[elwing]

As a sk I want a def disc that redirect some damage to the group

[Crede]

Because SK already don't dunk on Paladins hard enough :p

In what way? Sk is outclassed by monks/necros on raids, paladins bring more to the table with their hot/hp buff.

I have both classes, pally just feels so much more equipped to handle most situations except fear kiting but that’s a pretty miserable experience imo. Sks just got shafted on spells. Fd for sure has its uses but for the most part I’ll take calm/root over that anyday. Not to mention a pally can self buff for another 1k hp, rez, and exponentially less downtime in any non fear kiting situation because of dw bp/helm.

Now if we had gnome Sks...might be a different story.

[Ennewi]

Lol

In one study of online teen language, researchers found that LOL is “used by our participants in the flow of conversation as a signal of interlocutor involvement, just as one might say mm-hm in the course of a conversation.”

And another linguist, John McWhorter, pointed out that LOL has changed from indicating real laughter to a signal of “basic empathy between testers” — in other words, a sign that you have read and acknowledged the message. It’s also a way to interject a bit of a casual flair to a conversation, much in the same way we might use a short laugh or a nod in face-to-face conversation.

Thank you for acknowledging my message.

[OuterChimp]

Gnome SKs would be cool.

[Kirdan]

Because SK already don't dunk on Paladins hard enough :p

this a joke? paladins are the ones dunking in this comparison

[Jimjam]

Garm touch way crappier compared to lay hands. I mean except for pvp.
Honestly, it is crappy compared even to mend (ignoring the timer difference, which is another thing to the favour of mend).

[Danth]

Fd for sure has its uses but for the most part I’ll take calm/root over that anyday.

Always interesting when people see the same thing and reach different conclusions. I also have both types of characters and while the Calm line is quicker for rapid pulls in easier areas, I'd much rather have Death Peace for use when I'm not in a hurry or for splitting/pulling difficult areas, especially if I'm in a small group without a rez easily available.

----------------------------------------------------

If harm touch were a lifetap to begin with then leechcurse would be redundant. In all probability the shadow knight would have been given a wholly different level 60 discipline. Interesting to think about what THAT might have been, and serves to illustrate how one ability being sub-par spills over into affecting other stuff too.

Danth

[Ennewi]

Sks just got shafted on spells. Fd for sure has its uses but for the most part I’ll take calm/root over that anyday.

Agreed. The good spells that SKs have are incredibly useful and do make up for the spells that aren't so good, those being almost useless in a lot of cases given their cast times and/or resist rates. Still, it's frustrating to have whole pages of a spell book that rarely make it onto the spell bar. The SK epic was designed well at least, though a minor improvement would have been to allow the proc to stack, thereby discouraging players from swapping it out after the fact.

Hybrids improved quite a bit once their spell books started having distinction from those of pure casters or priests; if only they were designed that way from the very beginning, who knows what SKs would have received in lieu of Necromancer spells.

Most noticeable are the resist buffs and protective skin runes, which look out of place next to dots, debuffs, and lifetaps. Single target spells to tap resists would have fit better, fleshing out the self-only design more, requiring that the class have an opponent for their spells to benefit them. Lowering resists would have also provided the class with an additional role on raids, as seen with Bard's OOS and Shaman's Malo.

Instead of Banshee Aura, a damage shield that incorporated life steal would have helped compensate for a lack of defensive/evasive disciplines.

An Imbue Lifetap Proc (vampiric embrace/shroud of death) upgrade, AoE(4), would have allowed for more strategy/survivability when clumping mobs. ToV chickens, PoH imps, Ring War waves, etc.

No undead DDs or IVU. Instead, SKs could have been nonkos to a majority of undead by default, along with Necromancers (similar to Druids/Rangers and animals).

No vision enhancement spells (deadeye/shadow sight). Instead, having spells that stole ultra/infravision and seeinvis from a target. It would have further enhanced the ghetto Rogue aspect of SKs who, instead of disarming traps, would have disabled seeinvis, clearing the way for the group/raid to navigate unimpeded. Cast steal seeinvis/truesight, feign death, stand/cos, continue through the area undetected. The buff/debuff could have been short duration and faded once/if the SK died or zoned.

Still, all things considered, it's hard to be critical about a tank class that can play dead and go invisible at a moment's notice.

[strongNpretty]

At the very least, just don't let the HT be resistible man..

[Snaggles]

Besides a few tricks the main thing a paladin really has over a SK is hp recovery. Celestial Cleansing is so good. Sanctuation is nice but Leechcurse works in any situation; LoH is better than HT. Balanced fairly well, imho.

I had a sk on live and loved it. I prefer the plodding pally 20 years later. Frankly if I had gone sk again I'd be more than happy; both very capable classes just way different. Fun to try them both :)

[rjw513]

Can Death Peace fail like normal FD ?

[Ennewi]

It can fail yeah, but then there's always the earlier version as a backup, that or BE greaves. The recast on Death Peace isn't terribly long though.

[Gustoo]

SK's are basically the best class in the game. No hybrid has a perfect spell set.

If an SK had only Harm Touch (as is), and feign death, and channeling skill, they would still be one of the best classes in the game.

Being a tank that can feign is over the top excellent. Being able to channel means you can cast clickies better.

Win.

Paladins are great. Rangers are great.

[A Knight]

Life taps that heal more but have longer cast times.

[Jibartik]

AgreedHybrids improved quite a bit once their spell books started having distinction from those of pure casters or priests; if only they were designed that way from the very beginning, who knows what SKs would have received in lieu of Necromancer spells.

warriors and rogues have more spells than I know what to do with in WOW haha

Disciplines should have been spell lines from the get go, prove me wrong! :D

[Gustoo]

Yes i hate cooldown timer "abilities"

[A Knight]

I wish fine plate was more useful. There should be tons of fancy-pants noobs running around covered in random colors.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

The thing people should remember when looking at Everuqest class design is Everquest was heavily inspired by Dungeons and Dragons 1.0 and 2.0. A "Shadowknight" in D&D was a character with 10 levels into Warrior, and 5 levels in to Wizard, with a focus on using necromancy spells. This means the "Shadowknight" had the same spell set as a Wizard, but having less levels into Wizard means you can't use the higher level spells. A character who leveled multiple classes in D&D also got an experience penalty.

As you can see, they basically just took the exact same idea, and simplified it a bit so you only had specific class combinations to chose from. They also simplified the range of spells you could choose from. A Shadowknight is a Warrior/Wizard, with more levels into Warrior and a focus on necromancy spells. A Paladin is a Warrior/Cleric, with more levels into Warrior. A Ranger was already defined as a specific class in D&D, but it is still basically a Warrior/Druid, with more levels into Warrior. The reason why rangers got their own class was because rangers in D&D and Everquest have a focus on using Bows, not just melee combat.

Everquest was made when video game design was still a lot less evovled. We take for granted all the stuff we know now, that the Devs didn't know back then.

Edit: Paladins were their own class as well in D&D 2.0, but they were basically a Warrior/Cleric. Shadowknights did not exist in D&D 1.0 or 2.0, so that is why I assume they decided to apply the hybrid penatly to Paladins and Rangers as well. Shadowknights kind of appeared in D&D 3.0 as the Blackguard prestige class, but that came out after Everquest had already launched.

[A Knight]

Take my complains with a grain of salt. I could play a more fair, or even an extremely fair version of EQ. But one thing I like about EQ is the illusion that its a world. "This is the way it is. That sucks." Leaving you to discover instead of assuming.

[ScruffMacBuff]

Druids skin line should provide regen starting from Rock and improving from there. It should also provide more AC than cleric buffs.

Damage shield as a way to increase group killing efficiency just can't be compared to slow or complete heal because druids don't have enough ways to mitigate damage the tank takes.

[Gustoo]

It would be cool if they had stronger AC components but they would still be weaker.

Regen is so OP that the SLN regen component makes it like the best spell in the game, I can hardly complain?

And druids aren't supposed to be on par with clerics healing, or shaman or enchy slowing.

I am honestly surprised how amazingly balanced the priest classes are, utility vs specific purpose use.

They really did a great job.

[Crede]

It would be cool if they had stronger AC components but they would still be weaker.

Regen is so OP that the SLN regen component makes it like the best spell in the game, I can hardly complain?

And druids aren't supposed to be on par with clerics healing, or shaman or enchy slowing.

I am honestly surprised how amazingly balanced the priest classes are, utility vs specific purpose use.

They really did a great job.

Gonna have to go with POTG being the best buff in the game but Druids definitely got the shaft overall. They should have been the ones who got Torpor in lieu of shamans to make up for their weak mana regeneration. Also an animal slow/mez would have been cool.

[A Knight]

Dex should effect bows more. Had to look up just now if they did at all. And rangers should get better bows at high levels. Maybe one plus of POP. I think it would be top heavy if ranger bow damage was OP.

[Noselacri]

Also an animal slow/mez would have been cool.

I'm actually kind of glad that the developers didn't go overboard with the mobtype-restricted spells in EQ. If they had, there would have been pressure on them to design the content to suit it. If druids had been the "shaman against animals" (and same with undead for cleric/necro), there would have to be "the animal dungeon" and "the undead dungeon" and whatnot in a systematic way across the game, and it would have fostered the notion that those classes were meant to stick to that content.

[Ennewi]

I'm actually kind of glad that the developers didn't go overboard with the mobtype-restricted spells in EQ. If they had, there would have been pressure on them to design the content to suit it. If druids had been the "shaman against animals" (and same with undead for cleric/necro), there would have to be "the animal dungeon" and "the undead dungeon" and whatnot in a systematic way across the game, and it would have fostered the notion that those classes were meant to stick to that content.

There could have been mobs that were classified as both undead and animal as well as dungeons containing both though types overlapping or interspersed throughout. A potential workaround to the systematic issue would have been to make Ignite Bones truly alter the target, making it undead and vulnerable to those spells, but perhaps also making it stronger in other ways as a result, sort of the opposite to the two versions of Sir Lucan, to prevent its overuse.

[fzzzt]

Damage is fine IMHO, if it worked correctly.

[ScottBerta]

So.. I’m reading about shaman vs Druid.. but what about the enchanter class? So over powered. They should have made enchanters only able to charm living mobs, necro only can charm undead and druids animals. And Enc should never have gotten clarity line because they can mana tap. Rather wizard should have gotten clarity line of spells. And mage should of been able to get a better regenerate self buff to go with mod rodding for their mana regen. That would have made wizard and mage more on par with necro and enc.

But to give enc slow, haste buff, charm, mez, clarity line, and mana tap is way, way to much.

[Nirgon]

The thing people should remember when looking at Everuqest class design is Everquest was heavily inspired by Dungeons and Dragons 1.0 and 2.0. A "Shadowknight" in D&D was a character with 10 levels into Warrior, and 5 levels in to Wizard, with a focus on using necromancy spells. This means the "Shadowknight" had the same spell set as a Wizard, but having less levels into Wizard means you can't use the higher level spells. A character who leveled multiple classes in D&D also got an experience penalty.

As you can see, they basically just took the exact same idea, and simplified it a bit so you only had specific class combinations to chose from. They also simplified the range of spells you could choose from. A Shadowknight is a Warrior/Wizard, with more levels into Warrior and a focus on necromancy spells. A Paladin is a Warrior/Cleric, with more levels into Warrior. A Ranger was already defined as a specific class in D&D, but it is still basically a Warrior/Druid, with more levels into Warrior. The reason why rangers got their own class was because rangers in D&D and Everquest have a focus on using Bows, not just melee combat.

Everquest was made when video game design was still a lot less evovled. We take for granted all the stuff we know now, that the Devs didn't know back then.

Edit: Paladins were their own class as well in D&D 2.0, but they were basically a Warrior/Cleric. Shadowknights did not exist in D&D 1.0 or 2.0, so that is why I assume they decided to apply the hybrid penatly to Paladins and Rangers as well. Shadowknights kind of appeared in D&D 3.0 as the Blackguard prestige class, but that came out after Everquest had already launched.



And this is still better than the trash they put out today

[Ennewi]

Besides a few tricks the main thing a paladin really has over a SK is hp recovery. Celestial Cleansing is so good. Sanctuation is nice but Leechcurse works in any situation; LoH is better than HT. Balanced fairly well, imho.

Leechcurse is actually very decent when hasted. I underestimated it. After testing, SK went from 65% HP to just shy of 95%, with all other tap procs being resisted in that time. Much better than the amplification to Harm Touch and should help avoid low HP aggro versus AE/ramp damage.

[San'Drax]

I always wished SKs focused on stealing attributes. A slow tap that hasted you (like 10%), or a resist tap that lowers theirs and buffs yours. Etc. Would be fun to balance your spell slots for encounters

[Benanov]

A *lot* of this was addressed later in the timeline.

Leech Touch is an AA that does what you think it does. It's an absolute lifesaver.

There are additional proc spells ala Vampiric Embrace. One of them allows you to regain mana instead of HP.

A resist tap that lowers theirs and buffs yours? How about it buffs your entire group instead? SKs also get group heal taps, high-taunt DD spells, hate-increasing buffs, and the like.

Unfortunately they're all *later* in the timeline and we will never see them here.

[Midoo]

ranger death music should have been this

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_B0CyOAO8y0

[Snortles Chortles]

And this is still better than the trash they put out today

[wagorf]

rogues should not be chain armor (post kunark)

[DMN]

Shadowknights did not exist in D&D 1.0 or 2.0,

They were called anti-paladins. they ahd the reverse of many paladin abilities/spells (cause light wounds instead of cure; a lay on hands that causes damage instead of heals) and worship evil gods. /usualymore of an NPC than a PC but I'm sure plenty of GMs allowed them as PCs.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

And this is still better than the trash they put out today

Lol very true.

They were called anti-paladins. they ahd the reverse of many paladin abilities/spells (cause light wounds instead of cure; a lay on hands that causes damage instead of heals) and worship evil gods. /usualymore of an NPC than a PC but I'm sure plenty of GMs allowed them as PCs.

Ah that is good to know! My knowledge of 1.0 and 2.0 has certainly rusted over the years, but that makes complete sense. It would be pretty simple to homebrew that class, even though it wasn't an official PC class as far as I recall.

[pivo]

[deleted] - wrong thread

[Frug]

That is all...

And unresistable; or make Pally's LOH resistable.

[tycohunden]

SK's should have harmshield

[Chortles Ban Appeal]

yes lets buff the skeletons in howling stones because harmtouching skeletons aren't already evil enough of a mob