SK and paladin, which one do you honestly think is better

[Bockscar]

Yeah it's subjective. We ain't writing scientific papers around here. What do you think? One knight better than the other or perfect cosmic balance?

[elwing]

Better for what anyway?

[jolanar]

In a group they are even enough that it doesn't matter. If solo then a Shadowknight.

[Danth]

Having played both extensively at high levels: I like the paladin a little better in full groups. I like the Shadow Knight better for solo/duo/smallman type stuff.

Danth

[Crede]

Paladins for raiding
Paladins for soloing except for fear kiting or situations where fd is required
Sks for any group composition where a healer is present.
Paladin for any group composition where a healer isn’t present

[Zipity]

Soulfire, close thread

[Kirdan]

The main difference between them is paladin healing ability vs SK pulling ability. If you're doing content that requires advanced pulling techniques then the SK is better, otherwise I'd take a paladin all day, every day. Even solo, I prefer paladin. Lull + root + click heals make life much better than chasing a feared mob around. The only reason I'd pick SK over pal for soloing is if I really need to have FD for easy AFKs.

[Jimjam]

SK if you are gonna be alone, Paladin if others are gonna see you (and your fiery sword!)

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Honestly depends on the situation.

For raiding, Paladins win hands down. Soulfire and Divine Strength give them a job to do. Shadowknights rarely (if ever) get to pull, because Monks and Necromancers have better toolkits for the most part. Yes, Shadowknights are still good offtanks in raids, but so are Paladins. Paladins are probably the superior offtank as well, since raid mobs basically resist all Shadowknight spells.

For grouping, both are basically equal. Paladins work better in a group without a healer, Shadowknights work better in a group without a puller, and both are basically the same in a group with a healer and a puller.

In solo situations, it depends. Both Paladins and Shadowknights are bottlenecked by mana. Their mana pools are relatively small, and can get drained quickly if things go bad. Shadowknights deal more damage, and can kill mobs more mana efficiently than Paladins due to fear kiting and FD. This is especially true with caster mobs, because Paladins are forced to cast a lot of stuns, whereas a single fear can last for at least 40 seconds. However, Shadowknights lose a lot of options when fighting mobs that are highly magic resistant or immune to fear. In those cases, Paladins have the advantage because self heals cannot be resisted. That means they can spend all of their mana in the fight, whereas a Shadowknight wouldn't be able to use their spells, unless you do something like summon an eye to cast lifetap on.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Although, a Shadowknight could in theory kite a mob indefinately, with their pet attacking the mob from behind. Similar to this video I made of killing an Ice Burrower https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=5fsvt1xfuqY , a Shadowknight could keep agro by chain casting https://wiki.project1999.com/Blood_Ember_Gauntlets , and keeping distance with JBoots or SoW pots. That means a Shadowknight can kill magic immune targets with enough time and kiting space. Would take forever, but it would be doable.

EDIT: Duh, they could just use disease cloud as well to keep agro. The spell cost is 5, so it is basically free if you have Flowing Thought I and II. Wouldn't be doable on summoning mobs sadly.

[Arvan]

Better at what? They both have strength/weakness in different situations.

[Keebz]

Paladins have some cool niches, but in aggregate I'd say SK is stronger.

[White_knight]

Both have their strs and -strs.

Question is very broad tbh.

But here:

SK have alot if nice tools, both invs, Levi, FD, pet, summon corpse, fear kiting, pacify undead etc.

Paladin have, pacify, heals, stuns, HP buffs, rez.

For solo:

Overall: nil difference both can go 1-60, just depends on your style of play.

Outdoors:
Shadowknight
Indoors:
Paladin

For dps:
Shadowknight

For raid:
Paladin, though 100pct can be argued SK can help pull.

For full group xp:
Paladin, though the difference is basically nothing, extra heals and LoH tips this in the Paladins favor.

For duo's:
Shadowknight, the extra dps, FD, etc helps more.

Summary:
As a Paladin lover I advise people to play SK because it serves people's need to feel like a DPS, and they have FD.
Paladin isn't for everyone, it's a slower, controlled leveling experience and your end game is something that most won't enjoy. However, in the long run a geared Paladin will out solo a geared Shadowknight. I.e, Paladins can solo Crypt.

This is why there's 1000 Shadowknights to 1 Paladin on blue.

Both are great, just slightly different approaches.

P.s. a Paladin + Shaman duo is great fun.

[Snaggles]

SK on live; pally on p99.
The pally is less exciting but offers more control aside of pulling. 20 years later the boring is nice.

I’d be happy with either, they both fit a great niche and personally wouldn’t solo both to 60 (and gear them). Happy with that quick HoT though and LoH since I went this route.

Note: I didn’t get a fungi until I was max level. The DW helm is legit good for 400p...

[Ennewi]

With zone knowledge? Paladin. Without? Shadow Knight.
With unlimited funds? Shadow Knight. Without? Paladin.

Lay Hands > Harm Touch

Heals > Lifetaps

Resurrection > Summon Corpse
Though there are edge cases, especially when a corpse falls through the world and no guides are online.

Sanctification > Unholy Aura / Leechcurse

Deepwater > Blood Ember

Fiery Defender + SoulFire > Innoruuk's Curse + Reaper of the Dead

Circlet of Shadow > Ring of Shadows

Revenant Bauble > Peggy Cloak

Vampiric Embrace / Shroud of Death > Divine Might
Lifetap procs rarely see resists.

Cures ≥ DoTs
Cures are useful in solo, group, and raid content. DoTs are more useful than cures in solo content and darkness is excellent in groups, but even the heavier DoTs rarely see use on raids.

Stun ≥ Fear
Fear is more effective but also more situational, as there are times when using it will lead to death en masse which isn't the case with stun. Versus mobs that are immune to either spell type, stuns still retain much of their worth on the spell bar for aggro.

Feign Death ≥ Divine Aura
FD seems better overall, especially with three versions and CoS, but DA cannot fail and aggro can be regained with taunt while invulnerable. Root and camp are okay enough in the absence of Feign Death, otherwise DA and zone if (a few) too many mobs are aggroed.

[Tunabros]

Paladin

so fun I leveled paladin to 60 on multiple TLPs, did the epic three times, and have my

wallpaper as my paladin

shadowknights are ok i guess

[Danth]

Sanctification

What are you doing that you like Sanctification so much? I've never been particularly impressed by it.

Danth

[Ennewi]

What are you doing that you like Sanctification so much? I've never been particularly impressed by it.

Danth

I wasn't either initially, but thinking over it more and more, anything that provides immunity in one form or another has to have its uses; thoroughly exploring what those are is difficult since more robust disciplines exist and often in greater abundance given the popularity of other classes. A stance to reduce or negate physical damage and a racial that gives immunity to frontal stun are all better, but spell damage comes in more varieties than physical; having a hard counter SV versus the majority of spells across the resist spectrum seems potentially very useful for long pulls, even with such a short duration / long cooldown. The best, most comprehensive resists available to player characters at the click of a button, better than any combined total of those received from gear, buffs, and songs. At least that's how it reads on all of the sites.

From personal experience, it works well as an extension to Divine Aura when running from trains. Paladin DAs to block physical damage from respawns on the way towards the zoneline, jumps/strafes out of melee range, then pops Sanct after DA fades if casters are aggroed.

For short duration "kill it before it kills you" fights, such as Gorenaire, Sanct means no dragon roar or AE damage. Even if the target doesn't die before Sanct fades, the effect still lessens the demand for heals and guarantees opportunity to get aggro.

If there's nowhere to line of sight a raid target's AE, due to poor positioning/aggro bouncing, the paladin can stay with the main assist for SoulFire clicks until they're back in range of the clerics.

DA to engage/position Trakanon, then click off and spam aggro with Sanct applied to counter AEs. The blind/stun is unresistable apparently, but everything else should be blocked.

Have yet to test Sanct against procs.

https://www.project1999.com/forums/archive/index.php/t-173050.html

sanctification : is broken it should block procs and it doesnt.

But assuming that's been fixed, there are more than a few targets that would be tanked with greater ease as a result.

https://wiki.project1999.com/Soul_Devour
https://wiki.project1999.com/Deadly_Lifetap
https://wiki.project1999.com/Stone_Spider_Stun
https://wiki.project1999.com/Frosty_Death

[Noselacri]

Paladin has the stronger overall spell package on paper, but it tends to be less awesome in reality than it is on paper due to stacking issues with clerics, and the fact that you just can't really use your heals much if you're tanking for a proper exp group that pulls often enough that you don't get to meditate for real. The buffs are alright if the group's healer is a druid or shaman, I suppose. Root has its uses, but so many classes have root that the tank is the last person who should be handling that.

I always felt that shadowknight has a spell suite that's more universally useful than the paladin. FD is such an incredibly convenient ability to have, and snare+fear allows for reasonably efficient soloing. Having both types of invis is sweet. If P99 cared to correctly implement mob low-health running speed so that snare was actually necessary in dungeons, shadowknight would have a distinct advantage in groups. The SK's aggro spells are also a little better as FoL is awkward to use from range and the stuns have high mana costs and long cooldowns, and you get one at 30 and another at 49, so that's a bit long to wait. If the Cease/Desist ones were in this timeline, that'd be another matter.

Lay on Hands is definitely better than Harm Touch, but I think the SK's access to large races pretty much balances this out. During Kunark, tradeable gear is vastly superior for SK than paladin (Atramentous Shield, Ebon Mace, FD legs, Incarnadine) whereas the paladin epic is so much easier to obtain, so I'd say that balances out as well. SKs also get CoS which is fantastic forever. Paladins get a 90% rez, but not until level 59 where it barely matters anymore. It's more of a service you can offer for pocket change.

Neither class shines in raids. Paladins do bring a 200 HP buff that stacks with pretty much everything, but it's not exactly a high-impact spell. SKs get to participate in pulling, and while monks are generally favored, there are cases where it's useful to have a puller with three FDs (two spells, only clicky) and the ability to summon a pet. From my days on Sullon Zek where only one of the three teams had access to SKs, we learned that this occasionally matters. Using a pet to help split pulls is rarely done here for some reason (I guess because monks can still do the job), but there are places where it's legit and make SK the better pulling class in those cases. A 200 HP buff is probably better overall, but not miles ahead.

If you boil it all down to sheer numbers and theorycrafting, paladin probably comes out ahead because their abilities are easier to measure mathematically. Personally, I think that the sheer QoL of FD and respectable soloability counts for more than some okay buffs and heals that you can't even use in many cases, so I consider shadowknight the more attractive class; but if you ask someone who cares mainly about raid desirability, they might say paladin just because of the 200 HP buff.

[greatdane]

Paladins are probably the superior offtank as well, since raid mobs basically resist all Shadowknight spells.

Doesn't matter, resisted spells still generate aggro and it's not like pala spells aren't resisted the same. At least SK has some spells with negative resist check if that was a concern. And 55+ mobs are outright immune to stun... do stuns even generate aggro when the mob is immune? I can't remember.

WHen it comes to off tanking in raids it's actually great to be able to get snap aggro and then feign it off after a while to hand the mob to a warrior if needed. Flurry drakes come to mind.

In solo situations, it depends. Both Paladins and Shadowknights are bottlenecked by mana. Their mana pools are relatively small, and can get drained quickly if things go bad. Shadowknights deal more damage, and can kill mobs more mana efficiently than Paladins due to fear kiting and FD. This is especially true with caster mobs, because Paladins are forced to cast a lot of stuns, whereas a single fear can last for at least 40 seconds. However, Shadowknights lose a lot of options when fighting mobs that are highly magic resistant or immune to fear. In those cases, Paladins have the advantage because self heals cannot be resisted. That means they can spend all of their mana in the fight, whereas a Shadowknight wouldn't be able to use their spells, unless you do something like summon an eye to cast lifetap on.

Fear kiting is way more mana efficient than facetanking mobs and healing yourself afterwards. 45+ pala can use clickies to heal for free but that takes forever and SK can fear kite for free with clickies. I can't think of anything that's immune to magic and fear that a pala would be able to solo anyway.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Doesn't matter, resisted spells still generate aggro and it's not like pala spells aren't resisted the same. At least SK has some spells with negative resist check if that was a concern. And 55+ mobs are outright immune to stun... do stuns even generate aggro when the mob is immune? I can't remember.

WHen it comes to off tanking in raids it's actually great to be able to get snap aggro and then feign it off after a while to hand the mob to a warrior if needed. Flurry drakes come to mind.



Fear kiting is way more mana efficient than facetanking mobs and healing yourself afterwards. 45+ pala can use clickies to heal for free but that takes forever and SK can fear kite for free with clickies. I can't think of anything that's immune to magic and fear that a pala would be able to solo anyway.

When it comes to offtanking in raids, I was more referring to the idea that Paladins can heal themselves and generate agro via their spells, whereas Shadowknights can really only generate agro, due to resists. From my experience, spells like lifetap are mostly resisted on raid mobs, even with the -200 check. Lifetaps are gimped in the raid scene on this server, to prevent cheesing bosses. I do agree that SKs have better snap agro, so that is a very good point in favor if SKs in raids, and FD is always nice:)

I also agree fear kiting is overall better than a Paladin's toolkit, barring some specific scenarios. It is more mana efficient, and you can do it for free forever. SKs get their full kit (snare, fear, FD) in clickie form, whereas a Paladin needs to cast their roots and stuns, they only get soothe on clickie. Any mob above 55 is also immune to fear, so Paladins could go toe to toe with a 55+ mob with more options than an SK. If you want the be the type of player than does solo challenges, Paladin can handle some mobs better. Cliff Golems come to mind here. They are level 58 and summon, so your only real option is to facetank with a willsapper. A Paladin would be much better in that fight with heals.

[Jimjam]

Lifetap needs to be unnerfed. It’s ridiculous that two classes worth of players have their main spell nerfed because of one item making a mob that spawns once a week be a 10 second instead of 16 second fight.

[Ennewi]

Lifetap needs to be unnerfed. It’s ridiculous that two classes worth of players have their main spell nerfed because of one item making a mob that spawns once a week be a 10 second instead of 16 second fight.

FWIW, a surprising number of mobs in Plane of Growth don't seem resistant to lifetaps. Casted various taps repeatedly on Rumbleroot (https://wiki.project1999.com/Rumbleroot) and not a single resist.

[Ennewi]

I also agree fear kiting is overall better than a Paladin's toolkit, barring some specific scenarios. It is more mana efficient, and you can do it for free forever. SKs get their full kit (snare, fear, FD) in clickie form, whereas a Paladin needs to cast their roots and stuns, they only get soothe on clickie. Any mob above 55 is also immune to fear, so Paladins could go toe to toe with a 55+ mob with more options than an SK. If you want the be the type of player than does solo challenges, Paladin can handle some mobs better. Cliff Golems come to mind here. They are level 58 and summon, so your only real option is to facetank with a willsapper. A Paladin would be much better in that fight with heals.

https://wiki.project1999.com/Deepwater_Bracer

[Snaggles]

I’ll have to check the wiki but fairly certain the recycle time on FoL beats DC. It’s quick enough that I only stun on pulls to prevent any chance of a fleeing target.

[magnetaress]

Paladins with a lot of cha are fantastic pullers with root. They can't split massive trains of 6 mobs easily. But for anything they are geared and leveled for. They're great at.

[greatdane]

https://wiki.project1999.com/Deepwater_Bracer

Stun on a 6.0 cast time is borderline worthless tbh.

[White_knight]

Fear kiting is way more mana efficient than facetanking mobs and healing yourself afterwards. 45+ pala can use clickies to heal for free but that takes forever and SK can fear kite for free with clickies. I can't think of anything that's immune to magic and fear that a pala would be able to solo anyway.

Using DW helm and arms I was going 60-90mins on solo's sessions without bum hitting the deck. The HoT heal has been a game changer and I was grinding Velks fairly easy.

Depends how you play.

Also yes, fear kiting is good in outdoor zones, but limited in dungeons where the gud xp/named can be found.

I.e my goal for my Paladin to hit 60 with his remaining 80pct is 20pct in Kedge, 20Pct in Sebilis and 20pct in HS, and 20pct (secret zone).

Basically all zones SKs would struggle to solo due to mechanics of fearing and needing space.

[Vexenu]

Stun on a 6.0 cast time is borderline worthless tbh.

Absolutely not worthless. It's a 4 second stun with a 6 second cast time and NO recast. When used in conjunction with your castable stun and shield bash you can effectively shut down caster mobs almost completely for very little sustained mana. So it's extremely useful when tanking for groups in places like Seb and Chardok where your own DPS is relatively unimportant. It's also nice for pulling as the stun gives you a head start on the mob.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Using DW helm and arms I was going 60-90mins on solo's sessions without bum hitting the deck. The HoT heal has been a game changer and I was grinding Velks fairly easy.

Depends how you play.

Also yes, fear kiting is good in outdoor zones, but limited in dungeons where the gud xp/named can be found.

I.e my goal for my Paladin to hit 60 with his remaining 80pct is 20pct in Kedge, 20Pct in Sebilis and 20pct in HS, and 20pct (secret zone).

Basically all zones SKs would struggle to solo due to mechanics of fearing and needing space.

Fear kiting is not limited in dungeons at all. You just use a high level snare with a short duration fear. Once you learn a dungeon you can find the safe areas to pull to, and you can fear kite there. With FD you have plenty of opportunities to learn the dungeon too.

I do stand corrected on the no clickie stun, forgot about the bracer. Clickie stun is very nice. Even with a 6 second cast time, no recast is very OP since stuns generally have a decent cooldown.

[Crede]

I think paladins are the better class on paper. However having fd, hide, and instant invis is just so nice especially for people who like to afk on demand. And Ogre sks are like the ultimate fd splitters.

[Ennewi]

Stun on a 6.0 cast time is borderline worthless tbh.

It's pretty good for holding aggro when manadrained / when there's no mana regen, just has to be spammed early and/or used in tandem with flash of light, similar to BE gauntlets and disease cloud. And if two players click theirs in succession, continuous stunlock. As mentioned, no recast time. BE greaves are great for that reason too, at least before Death Peace, but even then they still have value for dragging corpses and dropping trains. Again, knights are dependent on mana regen / vulnerable to manadrain so anything that still allows them to function as casters goes a long way.

[Gustoo]

It depends what you wanna do.

For most of the time being an ogre is a lot better than being any of the paladin races.

At max gear any hybrid is a hoot. Ranger, paladin, sk all are quite awesome

I like how for 2021 everyone is coming around to hybrids it’s gunna be like 1999 again when everyone was a ranger or pally. Love it

[Naethyn]

Most of the best shadowknights are playing other classes while equipping their knights. Paladins have an endgame buff divine strength. Both are bad.

[Ennewi]

Most of the best shadowknights are playing other classes while equipping their knights. Paladins have an endgame buff divine strength. Both are bad.

Situationally good, otherwise those players probably wouldn't be raid gearing their knights? Seems like a waste of DKP otherwise.

[Gustoo]

They want to equip them because they are cool and fun.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Situationally good, otherwise those players probably wouldn't be raid gearing their knights? Seems like a waste of DKP otherwise.

Yes, Knights are generally the best tanks in solo/duo/group situations, unless a Warrior or Monk is extremely well geared. Gearing up a Knight is a LOT cheaper DKP wise than gearing up a Warrior or Monk, so it is the easier path to gear up a Knight if you want a great solo/duo/group tank.

[mattydef]

SK for fun factor and soloing, paladin for literally everything else. I can take my paladin to KC or seb and be MT and the only healer at the same time.

[kjs86z]

Situationally good, otherwise those players probably wouldn't be raid gearing their knights? Seems like a waste of DKP otherwise.

Thinking of it the wrong way.

They're playing useful chars in raids to eventually spend their DKP to gear their knights so they can go enjoy the game outside the raid scene.

Hitting CH on an uber geared cleric doesn't feel any cooler than on a crap geared cleric bot. Doing solo / single group stuff with a full BiS hybrid is a heck of a lot more fun than a crappy geared hybrid.

I watched Sudz completely destroy sebilis by himself right after he got his Vulak axe. He was definitely having a good time.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Thinking of it the wrong way.

They're playing useful chars in raids to eventually spend their DKP to gear their knights so they can go enjoy the game outside the raid scene.

Hitting CH on an uber geared cleric doesn't feel any cooler than on a crap geared cleric bot. Doing solo / single group stuff with a full BiS hybrid is a heck of a lot more fun than a crappy geared hybrid.

I watched Sudz completely destroy sebilis by himself right after he got his Vulak axe. He was definitely having a good time.

Exactly right. A heavily geared hybrid can do very well in those situations compared to a Warrior or Monk with non raid gear and gear you can buy (excluding people who can drop a million plat or more). Unfortunately gearing up a Warrior or Monk is EXTREMELY competitive in guilds, so you need to spend a LOT more time raiding if that is your goal. You could mostly get BiS gear on a hybrid in a fraction of the time and DKP it takes to do on a Warrior or Monk. This obviously excludes overlapping interests like Vulak Axe. But there are plenty of great, fairly cheap raid weapons a Paladin or Shadowknight can get that aren't interesting or useable by Monks and Warriors, and they would be within the top 15 best DPS weapons you could get.

[mattydef]

A lot of people forget there's more to EQ than just raiding. There's nothing more fun than getting a big upgrade, typically a melee weapon, and destroying some mobs in mid to upper level dungeons.

[Gustoo]

Agreed. No matter how best in slot your caster gets he can never slaughter sarnaks for days on end for the pleasure of it, or for the bracer of the hidden, or whatever. Thats for the melees.

[Ennewi]

Thinking of it the wrong way.

They're playing useful chars in raids to eventually spend their DKP to gear their knights so they can go enjoy the game outside the raid scene.

It was an insincere question, but yeah that's the gist of it, that there's a reason for DKP spending on a hybrid and not just that it's a lot more cost-effective than with other raid-appropriate classes, especially the ones that aren't dependent on gear from 1-60.

Doing solo / single group stuff with a full BiS hybrid is a heck of a lot more fun than a crappy geared hybrid. I watched Sudz completely destroy sebilis by himself right after he got his Vulak axe. He was definitely having a good time.

Hmm, so conditionally good. Fair enough. Still better than saying...

Most of the best shadowknights are playing other classes while equipping their knights. Paladins have an endgame buff divine strength. Both are bad.

[Ennewi]

Yes, Knights are generally the best tanks in solo/duo/group situations, unless a Warrior or Monk is extremely well geared. Gearing up a Knight is a LOT cheaper DKP wise than gearing up a Warrior or Monk, so it is the easier path to gear up a Knight if you want a great solo/duo/group tank.

Aye, and those upgrades will have a noticeable/more pronounced effect, bridging the gap between the two classes hybrids are derived from, but the gap is still wide even then. The stronger the class is solo, the less noticeable the effect from gear. And since most purecasters and priests can single-player mode from 1-60 without issue, and raid mode once 50+, gear is superfluous. While certain high-end items can make a big difference for them, those classes are still more useful than hybrids either way. Disciplines also lessened the strictest requirements for gear on pure melee classes. The numbers are there, but they don't account for everything.

So, for not having the spells and abilities that primary classes are known for, hybrids (excluding bards) are generally considered bad. And by that standard, I would tend to agree. But if that's how bad is defined, than every option in classic is terrible compared to live.