Nilbog's Old Teams back to the top

[Gustoo]

Sadly the url to his image is gone but here is his old post for re-igniting 5 year old discussion


Originally Posted by nilbog
http://i41.tinypic.com/23l12ck.jpg

West side:
Erudites
Barbarians
Humans - Qeynos
Half Elves - Qeynos
Dark Elves
Ogres

East side:
High Elves
Gnomes
Dwarves
Trolls
Wood Elves
Half Elves - Kelethin
Iksar

Freeport - Point of contention. Humans spawning here can ally to either side.(?)

Just curious how this would play out.

[Gustoo]

Right off the bat I think that Iksar is going to have to be a split race that can go to either side, because there is a lot of iksar loyalty and iksar monks and necro's are just too excellent to be on one side only. Also sadly the shire folk just like LOTR were left out of the dark lords plans

[Jibartik]

purple99

[Gustoo]

A lot of chumps really want teams so I want to talk about it again. I don't think its as good as a real rallos zek server but if it was teams like this or similar and sullon zek rules it could make for a decent set up.

The way I see it there are only 2 ways to make low levels not too stupid.

1. Item loot with small pvp range (4 level rallos style) and obvious restrictions on deleveling or equipping elite no drop stuff like rogue epics as a lowbie.

2. Sullon rules so theres no reason to park a twink level 20 at unrest since he will be smashed by any level 50 or 60 that chooses to clean house.

I personally really enjoy low level PVP a lot, so I prefer option 1. But if people don't want to have item loot enabled then its gotta be option 2 to balance things out.

[Old_PVP]

https://i.imgur.com/wz7wpjZ.png

[Gustoo]

Thanks for posting the map. Looks like halflings are with the west side. I think for sure iksars have to be split. Anyone disagree? Maybe it helps balance?

[Jibartik]

Teams > RZ pvp for one reason:

Regular people will play on a teams server.

I cant explain why, but it be that way. Although I played on RZ and item loot only resulted in 1 thing, me as a teenage boy contemplating suicide over a video game so I am not much of a fan of that lol

[Gustoo]

I'm going to look at this list in terms of significant best races for a given class. Some classes it matters less so I'm not gunna say anything, like druid, bard, ranger, wizard, magician, paladin.

I will say that the west side gets all the blind races and with new crazyballs forced lighting situation all those races suck pretty bad for PVP till items fix it.

West side:
Erudites
Barbarians - Best Rogue
Humans - Qeynos
Half Elves - Qeynos
Dark Elves
Ogres - Best SK, Shaman, Warrior
Halfling

East side:
High Elves - Best Cleric, Best Enchanter
Gnomes - H
Dwarves
Trolls - Contested best SK, Shaman, Warrior
Wood Elves
Half Elves - Kelethin
Iksar - Best Monk, Best Necro


I guess Iksar doesn't significantly imbalance the east side, but I think if you put trolls and iksars exclusively on 1 team you are going to get a lot of the better players on that team. Ogres superiority (IMO) and barbarian rogue superiority doesn't balance the player capital that you lose by putting classic PVP champ races (troll and iksar) all on one side.

[Gustoo]

Teams > RZ pvp for one reason:

Regular people will play on a teams server.

I cant explain why, but it be that way. Although I played on RZ and item loot only resulted in 1 thing, me as a teenage boy contemplating suicide over a video game so I am not much of a fan of that lol

I understand these sentiments. You are grown now and can survive the loss of an item, and can just wear full banded and lose it with no sweat whatsoever while still being able to triumph over all PVE encounters.

Truly no one needs to risk any valuable gear on item loot server unless they choose to. Weapons and held items are premium priced and lootable armor is super cheap priced, it was really great on rallos. Prices for cloak of flames pretty reasonable.

But I understand and thats why we're talking about teams here. And that is why we are talking about non item loot teams. Its a decent way to make a decent server that will be different than what we already have.

I will be pushing hard for a real rallos zek replica for Red 3.0 though.

[Jibartik]

I liked on rallos how like, in pugs and in general everyone looked very mortal, wearing leather and banded. The exp and group suffered of course, but in this game a group mate will kill the tank and loot his rubi BP and just reroll.

So you gotta go weak on rallos.

Then you get to the raids, and its like all magical glowing armor, because you're safe there!

So it made this cool like, real life where you wear the magical armor to fight the dragons, aspect to the game that I thought was kind of cool.

But yeah, on p99 item loot means group murderers everywhere I'd guess lol

We know how to reroll characters and PL them too quickly and still be able to make a huge profit off that rubi BP we stole from someone we were grouped with.

Seems kinda unfun to me... but teams, teams would fix that!

[Gustoo]

I love rolling in rags.

I love chasing people down when you see that off color silver BP that you know is an ikky regen.

And you just hope when they pull their DJARNS it will be right on server tick and they will survive the ring pull and you can kill the death stroke, and loot that Djarns, which was always pretty high priced.

You can hunt twinks. Its hilarious and great fun.

And yeah when you're raiding dragons your friends can help you out, and you mostly get geared in no drop by then anyways.

In ALL INSTANCES a low level character is GARBAGE on pvp, but only with item loot is there a plus side. Let me explain

1. No item loot, 4 level range. Twinks are unstoppable and there is no reason to fight them, you just get killed and go some where else till they log off. Lowbies have bad time just wanna level up. You are in rags anyways.
2. No item loot, infinite pvp range. Twinks for PK don't exist, they just get killed by high levels so the twinks are just for grinding and occasional murder. Lowbies still have bad time, just wanna level up. You are in rags anyways.
3. Item loot, 4 level range. Twinks for PK exist, but they risk their armor. They are worth killing. Your shitty rags and banded armor are not worth hunting. IF the twink is super strong, he has items worth taking. You try to kill him and occasionally you succeed in kill shot, and get loot.


NOW for high levels.

1. No item loot, 4 level range - Doesn't matter
2. No item loot, infinite range - Doesn't matter
3. Item loot, 4 level range - You have a lot of no drop gear to choose from, so you do fine. When you raid you equip droppable resist gear.


The only argument against item loot is by high level guys that don't want to lose their fungi tunics. The only other argument against item loot is by VELIOUS high level people that are getting shit stomped by fully skyshrine + + + geared invincible full no drop +10 to all stats guys and they have no way to even attempt to gear up to compete.

So like, we can just not go to velious, that's fine.

At this point having no item loot just seems completely stupid. Sorry you don't get to wear a rubicite BP all the time. Its great having the platinum economy way way more balanced and these farmable droppable items are significantly devalued. It makes the server better.

It's different for sure, but the game play is better.

The argument that casters win is silly because a naked meleee on vanilla has almost identical resists to a rags geared one, meaning almost all spells land for almost 100%. That is a problem that doesn't go away.

On LIVE 100 MR meant CC basically didn't land. We would need to do tiered resists of some kind because there just isn't any resist gear on Vanilla and then in kunark if you leave resists in place I think casters might get pretty neutered. It needs a close look.

[Fame]

I’d support item loot. It can be harsh but also a lot of fun. It also opens up a new economic option through extortion. I played on a item loot wow server a while back and had a blast charging people a toll to ride the zeppelin or a tax to farm mobs in select areas. Tolls and taxes was a entirely new aspect of the game and really gave ya something to do every day when ya weren’t raiding.

[Gustoo]

I am excited about your support.

The only EQ server with item loot and no level range was "Discord" the permadeath server that came fairly late in the timeline of EQ. Otherwise, item loot was always with the 4 level pvp range which somewhat limits the success of extortion, like a level 60 can't tell a level 20 to give him 5pp or else he will kill and take his banded BP anyways.

But if you can figure out a good way to extort please feel free.

[Gustoo]

The reason sullon zek rules are best for a no item loot scenario are because it allows level 60's to kill OOR healers and stuff, and the teams would encourage level 60's to defend the lowbies on their team. When there is no item loot, it doesn't matter if you're getting smashed by an equal level twink or a high level guy just rolling thoruhg, you are still getting smashed and there is no reason to try to be victorious against these players, since its just a waste of your EXP grind time. So it might as well be sullon rules (no pvp range) because it has some advantages. You can also root and kill low level out of range players that would try to train you and such.

What we have now in p99 is kinda the worst of both worlds which I have been whining like a baby about since the beginning. High levels have OOR problems they can't solve. Low levels have Twink problems not worth fighting.

So I think its either item loot 4 level range or no level range no item loot + teams.

I mean overall we have no population so that is the biggest problem that a new server will solve but a fresh and fun ruleset will give people a great place to play. I do think that teams will give really fresh players to EQ pvp a safe place. Humans and half elfs will be rightfully distrusted which seems to fit with EQ Role playing. Iksar (maybe) also can be on either side which also fits their slimey lizard nature.

[Ret.SaxonAlex]

Sullon Zek was my home so I will always have a bias. When I say RZ rule servers, I usually speak of no item loot but I guess I could withstand that. I usually just mean red style with 6-8 level above and bellow, or whatever it is. I thought RZ was just from inventory. Back to Sullon though, statistically the fundamental of 3 teams should be better than that of WoW. Two teams is just an imbalance waiting to happen. On 3, the other 1 can at least check the super power. I'm surprised wow hasn't thought of it yet. With that recent expansion, I'd rather release new races for a new faction. But then there is always the problem of what I did. A rogue renegade with no guild just out to PK. It would make the good team look bad. So maybe an ability to kick them from a team? That might not be best though, may hurt feelings.

[Swish]

Some of the best screenshots shortly after red launch was an ogre warrior/SK going at some elves outside Crushbone with a rusty scythe :D

[Gustoo]

A little too complex Saxon.

Sullon had heavy imbalance and I think that is why we want to try 2 teams to make it a bit more straight forward. Also 3 teams makes it hard to get all teams the right classes. Sullon Zek to outsiders is most known for being heavily permanently imbalanced in favor of evil team and the same would be the case here.

Rallos zek was +-4 for its history, but on this server there was originally a variable PVP level range that was later switched to the steady 4 that we have now. May have been switched at the same time they removed the PVP exp death and I believe tinkered with the resists.

I wanna say that was 100 years ago and the last time R99 was touched. Not sure tho.

[Gustoo]

Some of the best screenshots shortly after red launch was an ogre warrior/SK going at some elves outside Crushbone with a rusty scythe :D

Theres nothing better.

One of my fond memories was fighting an erudite wizard and enchanter duo on the wooden planks of kelethin. They were level 12, and I mostly lost. Titaly and Winks. Mega props if you can positively identify yourself as the OP of those players. Or Jooke or Jookes who were different level 10 rogue PKs

[nilbog]

I'm surprised this idea still has traction.

It was mostly a question as to whether any server had tried region-based teams. At the time, I was considering a stronghold type situation of antonica vs faydwer. Are the leveling dungeons balanced in comparison? Would Grobb be the hub of east side/would they control guk?

[Ret.SaxonAlex]

Sorry, just talking fast. Sometimes I hate thinking about my words. I guess in that sense two teams could work. I still think player cities could bring a level playing field for everyone. Also in shadowbane there were mine fights. A mine can give a certain resource. But once you have it you have it for a X given time. Maybe if one guild is only on at a certain time then another guild can get resources for their city. I realize thats for another game but /shrugs. I guess two teams might work, would be cool if there was something else to level the playing field though.

I also thought, for super everquest; NPC cities could be conquered too. But also its like a random hurricane. Sometimes the NPCs can revolt and take back their city. Also, if good team dies, then there is a small chance they can get back Felwithe.

[Gustoo]

I'm surprised this idea still has traction.

It was mostly a question as to whether any server had tried region-based teams. At the time, I was considering a stronghold type situation of antonica vs faydwer. Are the leveling dungeons balanced in comparison? Would Grobb be the hub of east side/would they control guk?

Faydwer is better low level and it seems
Both teams have decent access to GUK which means the faydwer team has some advantage. This could be fixed with ZEM mods to the dungeons and regions more available on the west.

In vanilla I think as long as both teams can fight bitterly over guk and cazic Thule things will balance out okay.

The other thing is if we go into the next server with the stated fact that it’s a 3 year run we can have another chance at the fun a lot sooner than we have had with red.

The idea has traction because it’s one of the few interactions pvp server has had with staff and a lot of players love the idea of teams (not me) but this is a setup that has not yet been done.

What do you say nilbuddy old pal do you want to try it? We need you. Set up a test and we can help flesh it out over a long period of time. Launch around a year from now when greens solidity into velious?

[Vexenu]

Region based teams are a good idea to encourage intra-team cooperation. I outlined my version of the idea extensively in this post (https://www.project1999.com/forums/showthread.php?p=3004485#post3004485), which I will just re-paste below in full.

PvP server idea: Norrathian civil war

This is something I've theorycrafted a lot over the years. I think Sullon Zek's ruleset should be used as the starting point, with three hardcoded teams (no cross-teaming) and unrestricted level range PvP. I would also allow training as a tactic. Basically encourage a very laissez faire approach by the GMs: anything goes besides hacking, boxing, etc... It should be a feeling of anything goes total war between the teams. This also makes the server much easier to police by the GMs and discourages favoritism and rule lawyering. Three teams is better than two because it creates a much more chaotic and unpredictable atmosphere. But one of the big problems with SZ was that the Evil team enjoyed too many advantages over the Good and Neutral teams. They not only had better races, but they had the entire continent of Kunark as their home turf. So while the Goods and Neutrals were fighting each other constantly to level on Antonica, Odus and Faydwer, Evils could mostly level in peace on Kunark. So SZ played out with the Evil team snowballing the early leveling advantage Kunark provided into dominance for most of the server's life. So you'd need factors in place to prevent that from repeating itself.

Another consideration is that you really want to encourage zone control by each team, and so grouping teams geographically makes a lot of sense. This allows each team to have relatively safe low and mid-level zones to level in and naturally groups teams together to better defend against enemy incursions into their territory.

A third consideration is that each team needs to have access to each class if they are going to be equally viable for raiding. It's just not fair to deny a team Monks or Bards or Shaman and expect that endgame-focused players would bother to roll there knowing they would be screwed when it came to raiding.

All that being the case, I would divvy the teams up in the guise of a Norrathian civil war, with three factions fighting each other, which are:

Qeynos Team
- Humans
- Barbarians
- Erudites
- Half-Elves

This team would naturally control all of Odus and the area around Qeynos, extending from Halas through the Karanas and into Highpass Hold.

The Dark Team
- Ogres
- Trolls
- Dark Elves
- Iksar
- Traitor Humans

The Dark Team would naturally control all of Southern Antonica, from Grobb/Oggok to Lavastorm, including Freeport where the Traitor Humans would start.

The Shortie Team
- Dwarves
- Gnomes
- Wood Elves
- High Elves
- Halflings
- Traitor Barbarians
- Traitor Humans

The shorties would control all of Faydwer.

So you basically have a race war server with humans/Barbs as the wild card being able to defect to any team. This is necessary in order to give the Dark team access to Monks, Bards, Druids, Rangers and Paladins (mostly the first two) and the shortie team access to Monks, Shaman, Necros and Shadowknights (mostly the first two). The Qeynos team would already have access to all classes.

You would need to make some minor modifications for this ruleset to be viable. Though unclassic, I think these changes are minor enough and justifiable enough in the lore given the context of a Norrathian civil war disrupting the normal order of things and creating refugees:

1) Halflings allowed to start in Kelethin.
2) Shortie Humans and Barbs allowed to start in Kelethin.
3) Monk and Shaman trainers placed in Kelethin.
4) Necro and SK trainers placed near the chessboard in BB.

The end result is that each team would have access to every class and would have natural zone control over large contiguous areas of Norrath. You also preserve a degree of RP in that you have teams that make sense within the context of EQ lore. Humans (and the odd Barb Shaman) as wildcards make sense, with the other races being more locked in to their faction alignments/racial loyalties.

Loot mechanics: Item loot has its advantages (the emphasis on NO DROP gear adds a neat layer of complexity to the game) but overall it's just too much of a turn off for most players to stomach. I would instead suggest full coin loot and 50% XP loss for a death to a player within 5 levels of you. If you die to a player who cons red to you (>5 levels higher) you lose no XP and they are unable to loot anything from you. They can kill you but you don't lose anything. Loot and scoot should be up to the teams themselves to grant and police. A respected foe might be granted safe passage. A known shithead/griefer might get corpse camped for days. No guarantees. Corpse camping should be a legal tactic/option.

Kunark and Velious:
The expansions need to be treated judiciously, because they both offer challenges for PvP balance on a Teams server. Kunark is a problem because it is a natural safe haven for the Dark team. And Velious is a huge problem because high-end Velious gear basically destroys PvP balance by making melee classes unkillable. So the first team to get a bunch of NToV geared melees will steamroll everyone else. That being the case, I would propose the following:

1) Kunark release must be delayed at least 6 months, or even a full year as per the classic timeline. This would probably be enough to prevent the Dark team from completely dominating the continent, because by the time it comes out the other teams will have enough high level players to make successful incursions into Kunark.

2) Velious must be released in two stages: stage 1 would allow access to all of IC, EW and GD, as well as Thurgadin and Kael (minus AoW/Statue). This gives teams access to low-end Velious raid targets and Thurg armor. This stage would probably represent the ideal point of class balance for EQ PvP, and the server could easily be stopped here indefinitely. But it should pause at this stage for at least six months to a year. This would allow each team time to be competitive for acquiring a baseline of Velious gear. Then you could release stage 2 of Velious and open up the high-end ToV loots, which would start to be the end of the good PvP on the server but players would probably demand after getting bored of being stuck in stage 1.

Team balance: The Devs could promote team balance by giving the weakest team a standing 20% XP bonus. Team balance would be determined by a simple function of population and the teamwide K/D ratio and could be calculated on a weekly basis.

Random balance considerations:
- SoulFire is Paladin-only
- Amulet of Necropotence is made NO DROP
- OT hammer is removed from game, or a comparable FV hammer is added via a similar quest in FV. Necessary to prevent Dark team from having a big mobilization advantage in Kunark/Velious era.

[Gustoo]

I like your whole build out Vexenu but I think that the 2 teams dynamic is 1: something that hasn't been tried before and 2: easier to balance.

For example, access to guk and CT and basically the lower disgusting part of Antonica is pretty much the most important part of vanilla game. Faydwer is great but it really is just a place to level up to get ready to go to Guk. Without changing a lot about the game I don't see how you can really make 3 teams viable contenders for Guk. At the very least it is very challenging geographically.

Also, getting enough good players and at least 3 good leaders (one for each team) is something that I think will also be significantly challenging here. Your idea might be the very best one but I am afraid about it being less practical, or requiring more customization than a 2 teams setup would require.

My ideal concept is one that is something that is relatively simple to implement on this project with the limited resources available to us.

The staged velious roll out is pure gold.

[Ret.SaxonAlex]

also in super everquest I thought it would be cool if there were "safe zones" were there was red style rules, with 4-10 levels above or bellow. On another subject, it would also be cool if pvp was allowed with the highest level relative NPC mob. Not guards or extra special quest mobs. So if in crushbone if the highest npc is the dark elf, (I hate to sound bad at not look up his name.) then its level 25 and bellow pvp is allowed. I just thought of that idea so it may need to be improved (or be bad.)

[Vexenu]

Certainly valid concerns, especially in regards to the importance of Southern Antonica. I don't think this would be a big issue, however. The main reason you want to have geographically contiguous "homelands" for each team is to facilitate a reasonably safe early leveling environment for new players. So the fact that Faydwer doesn't have any dungeons to match Guk is fine. It doesn't need to. As you said, it's simply a place where the Shortie team can level relatively safely into the mid levels. The entire Southern Antonica area running from Lavastorm, through Freeport/Commonlands and over to Guk would end up being the warzone of the server, where all three teams wind up battling heavily for access to the two classic endgame dungeons.

As for leaders, I think you would be surprised how people rise to the occasion and how nature abhors a vacuum. Look at what happened with Green and Teal. When Green split, many people (and guilds) intentionally went to Teal to have more breathing room and opportunity. The same dynamic holds true with having multiple teams. No competitive guild wants to play second fiddle to another on its own team. Competitively-minded players with leadership qualities would thus naturally spread out among all three teams. Ultimately I think you would end up with one major endgame-PvE capable guild on each team, with a smattering of smaller PvP focused guilds who are there to enjoy the fighting, acting as zone enforcers/protectors and PKs.

[Gustoo]

One can hope.

Wizard port in to South Ro wizzie spires, right in the heart of the home town of some ogres seems like a difficult avenue of attack. Same with porting into lavastorm.

Most importantly, Ogre, Troll, and Iksar are the number 1, 2, and 3 race for murderers and Dark elfs being a close 4th. The only race missing is Gnome on that team for having literally every race of choice for people who commit acts of violence in everquest PVP. That is probably the biggest challenge with this cool setup.

Probably more importantly, the Qeynos team is a total dumpster, with 3 blind races, and then the worst race in the game (half elfs) and 2/4 of their races are available on the other teams. That qeynos team goes straight into the trash can, day one unfortunately. Their only exclusive race, the erudite, is quite unpopular because they are blind and their supreme intellect is partially impaired by their need for +5 agility and their lack of hide (dark elf) and their lack of hax vision (gnome) for casters.

Probably regardless of the other problems, that blind team in the least popular region of norrath is going to struggle hard.

[Gustoo]

Also I need to add that as a halfling I am offended that you would think I would ever start outside of the shire without first being flayed alive and turned into a pile of goose jelly for a troll to eat. We don't leave the shire bro.

Lets go with Nilbogs idea since its easier to split up and no team is super terrible, what do you think?

[Vexenu]

I would certainly play it if was the only option for a Teams server. But, and I can only speak personally here, the lore-defying nature of that team split would never stop bothering me. High Elves teamed with Trolls and Iksar? Wat? I feel like a better team split that still maintains some semblance of EQ lore is possible, whether it ends up being two or three teams.

[Ret.SaxonAlex]

everyone vs iksar. but iksars level faster. /scoffs in iksar. your "modernized" Firiona Vie only makes you depressed and destroys kunark.

[Gustoo]

Everquest classes and races don't split well into two teams. The natural alliances of most of the races don't work well in a (halfway balanced) pvp environment. Everquest live had 3x teams servers with 3 teams each and none of them were very good. Sullon was cool but only because it had some flair, but in the end it was the least balance of all with evil team mega squashing.

So we would need to add another piece of lore. Like there is some world breaking event taking place and one side decides that they want to see the world broken, and the other side wishes to see the world persist.

So while high elfs do not want to see trolls exist, they believe that life is worth saving and if the scum trolls will fight along side the high elfs, the high elfs will do so in order to save existence.

Something like that.

[Gustoo]

For the Nilbog Map it seems like freeport should probably just be a east side city, and the battle surrounds freeport and mostly happens around there and in the swamp.

The geological split is a surprisingly good fit for the game.

Iksars can either just never happen (f u iksars) or be the split race similar to humans. Or be given entirely to the team that is getting obliterated at the end of vanilla.

[Ret.SaxonAlex]

Solving the problem of fixing EQ pvp without breaking stuff or changing to much could also be something minor. Lootable pvp coins, from pvp, in exchange for 1 hour pvp immunity or something, for raiding.

[Gustoo]

A challenge with that is high level PVP often involves NPC's and if players were PVP immune than they would get PVE dragged on them, intentionally or otherwise.

I don't think we need to make a perfect system, just one that will be fun for a while given some basic constraints of how everquest works.

I think nilbogs solution with sullon zek rules is pretty robust, with Iksars up in the air.

Or we use verants solution and just do item loot rallos zek FFA rules.

I'm ready for something.

[Ret.SaxonAlex]

I'd have to try it to find out. Its not too far out there. If EQ exists forever, and that is a randomly generated pvp server, I would probably play it. Also speaking of balance. Correct me if I am wrong, but there were 3 times that there was never a chance to beat an overwelming guild in pvp and they either lost interest or stopped ruling over others. So maybe just red 2.0 copy and pasted would be fine.

[Gustoo]

There is no way to have perfect balance, someone is going to get ahead and hold on till they fall apart, or the server ends, or whatever.

But some imbalance can be avoided. In Vexenu's example he had a team consisting of humans, barbarians, erudites, and half elfs. Those are some of the least played races in the game, and 3 of 4 of them are blind and severely disadvantaged on P99 now.

We can avoid that kind of imbalance.

[Ret.SaxonAlex]

Or like, Guild only last for a year and a half, and then are erased. And a new guild can only have 50 percent of the old guild allowed.

[Ret.SaxonAlex]

I agree, like others have said I think its mostly a lore thing. But EQ is still good as it is. I'm sure if there was a contest of all melee get gate but casters dont but do more damage, and the first guild to kill 1,000 people in skyshrine wins, I think it would be cool to try for a bit. But I wouldn't be all up in protest at best buy, telling everyone they ruined my game, because they changed the lore of the game. (I guess that wasn't a lore example.) But lore is cool and may matter at this point in my life, not sure.

[Ret.SaxonAlex]

Sorry for triple post. What I meant by EQ is still good the way it is, meant that minor changes to pvp like that would be ok. It wasn't meant to sound too negative towards the idea. I was trying to support it while also saying lore may be a factor for me personally as an individual. I have the memory of a gold fish so I probably meant to work that in somewhere but I forgot.

[Jibartik]

I wonder if when God made the universe Satan was like, this is unbalanced, and God was like that's the point, and Satan was like this is bullshit and so he went off to make wow and trick us all to join that terrible universe I mean server!

[Ret.SaxonAlex]

Wow seems balanced in a very bland way. Like no resist gear (haven't played in ages.) I know they did back in the day. But its like Wow was made bland in a very tricky way that on the surface you say, "Why don't they have blank." and someone says a quick response. But then you have to find out the details. If I didn't have brain damage Wow pvp might even be fun but wow pve often feels just like pretending to enjoy horrible algebra while at an awesome concert. But the music is modern rap.

[Jibartik]

"this infinate universe seems very bland."

Things you say after you chose the wrong side during the end of times :o

[magnetaress]

Normal rallos, or vztz.

No one can bind outside of inns in cities.

If you log out or go LD, you spawn at your bind. In the inn.

500% regen speed at inns, but your snared, slowed 50% while resting and your unable to cast. so ya get full quick. Remove bind and just have soul binders. Maybe remove gate? Add npc teleporters that charge a flat rate for travel between cities. 100p. Add a cool down rez like debuff for using these. Make 10 dose sow pots vendored. Remove coin loot. If you die in pvp, you spawn at your inn bind with your gear and spells,, the no travel -20 stat debuff for 30 mins.

Make zones with raid targets, any lvl range. Remove exp loss from death. Allow trains.

Maybe make city guards godlike and assist in faction so ppl don't use them to grind and abuse the inn regen.

No YT.

[Jibartik]

i never heard more people talk about a server, than the people from vztz, that place is like texas.

[magnetaress]

i never heard more people talk about a server, than the people from vztz, that place is like texas.

I played newt twink on SZ, it was something awful and simultaneously amazing.

SZ teams are just crazy though.

Everyone needs to be able to use every city if u do my idea tho. Or maybe pay like 5k lump sum to switch inn binds and guard, merchant factions. Adjusted by # of players with faction?

Guk will be crazy. Maybe pvp gives faction hits and that's how u switch cities.

Grobbbbb army United.

Also more classic resists seems legit. Casters should have to work together to kill a geared melee. A war should be able to go after a wiz and mage with a fighting chance. But that mage should be able to malo and get the war if he does not pell.

If ppl die in pve they don't get the debuff. Debuff is there to make pvp matter more than trains while contesting raids.

Faster recovery and mobilization from train deaths, but punishing pvp makes them useful but not the ultimately winning strat for pvp. Makes the game faster paced, more strategic, and fun.

[magnetaress]

BTW thx for the thread loved reading all the replies.

I like the many ideas.

I want to attract blue raiders into red raid combat zones while making them feel like their pixels and time investment will be protected. And they can simultaneously achieve their EQ dreams with end game pvp in mind. Cuz let's face it, eqs grind is insane, even spawning 60, there's still many hours of questing, camping mobs, tradeskills, faction and hoping for drops.

[Old_PVP]

This is literally a topic that has resurfaced countless times for close to a decade now. God damn, time flies.

As far as rulesets go... I don't care anymore. They all have their ups and downs. It would be nice to try a ruleset that has never been done before like some kind of restrictive team setup.

This East vs. West idea has promise, as well as a 3 team setup. Teams need to be implemented like WoW teams though. No trading / No communication across teams. Basically all you should be able to do is kill the opposing team. With or without item loot of 1 droppable item.

Item loot could potentially scare the average Joe away from PVP, but the security of teams may equal out that fear. Item loot does have its advantages like keeping the server economy under control as well. Also, thinking in terms of team zone control, it may be the only way opposing teams have access to certain items. For instance, if 'Team 1' has a dungeon on lockdown because it is deep within their territory, it may be very impractical for anyone from 'Team 2' to farm a camp. The only way to obtain that item would then be to loot it off a 'Team 1' player that farmed it.

Here's to hoping...

[Jibartik]

what about a pvp server where every named mob in the game gets a bonus to HP and damage so they're all raid mobs and you have to start raiding to get loot in crushbone at like level 12 so its like, a rags for almost ever server.

edit: we can call it the rags to riches server. (https://youtu.be/ik0BPKM9WQg?t=12)

[Gustoo]

I agree with Old PVP about kinda throwing in the towel for exactly what gets done as long as it has half a brain worth of consideration for its implementation.

Zero communication between enemy teams (wow style) is an interesting idea, I'm not sure how I feel about it since coordinating cross teaming could be done outside of the game.

I wish there was a better way to limit the number of characters a player has access to but the way EQE MU is setup right now, that isn't an option either.

I think East vs West teams pvp sullon (no item loot) ruleset with the addition of Tiered level caps and custom changes to deal with legacy item psychosis would be the best way to make the server fun for the longest amount of time.

No PVP level range, but everyone maxes out at level 10 for a given period would be MEGA fun. I would pay money for level 10 to be the cap for like 3+ months before switching to level 20 because a buncha lowbies with nothing better to do than kill eachother in rags is extremely fun and everyone should experience it. Rallos kelethin was the funnest gameplay I ever had anywhere.

I think it is simpler to leave item loot out although I prefer it in.



For rags to riches I think that this server would kinda force rags to riches style if it has tiered level caps. If you got enough level 10's together you could have a crushbone raid to gear up.

Imagine coming over on the boat from freeport to attack kelethin with 100 level 10's oh baby.

[Old_PVP]

For rags to riches I think that this server would kinda force rags to riches style if it has tiered level caps. If you got enough level 10's together you could have a crushbone raid to gear up.

Imagine coming over on the boat from freeport to attack kelethin with 100 level 10's oh baby.

Honestly that sounds like a blast. Low lvl PVP in shit gear was always fun back in the day. Some of my favorite PVP memories were battling over Blackburrow or defending the wall in Misty with nothing but rusty weapons and ragtag armor.

Rags to Riches sounds like a fun server. After all, why should raiding only be reserved for end game and hardcore players? All levels should be able to get a taste for raiding. It would also make the dropped loot more unique and rare. A "Magical item" would actually have more meaning.

[Gustoo]

Level 10 cap, 3 months
Level 15 cap, 3 months
Level 20 cap, 6 months
Level 30 cap, 6 months
Level 40 cap, 6 months
Level 50 cap, vanilla, 6 months
Level 50 cap, kunark, 6 months
Level 55 cap, 6 months
Level 60 open, 6 months pre velious
Velious launch, 1 year, reset.

5 year time line ish

If pop drops out significantly at some point, make new ruleset, announce the new server and reset it after minimum 1 or 2 months of announcement time for people to get ready for next go around. Maybe break all those up into 3 month buckets for less lulls in the EXP grind, but maybe not.


This is PVP specific, there should be tiered caps on all new blue servers too but maybe less specific. Level 30 cap for 6 months, level 40 cap for 3 months, and then open it up on a server trying to follow classic timeline.

[Gustoo]

One problem came to mind about a hard coded teams server.

Inter-team petitionquest.

I think we need to go into the teams experiment with the stated understanding that if the teams act poorly and engage in petitionquest internally that the teams project will be dumpstered and a FFA scenario will be allowed to play out instead.

I think we will know pretty much right away if its going to be disgusting garbage community or if the teams will act well internally and direct all of their angst towards the opposing team.

Not sure if the intention was to allow multiple starting cities or just make it Oggok vs Grobb starting cities only or what. That would be something to mess with in beta with multiple resets and stuff to see the best way. Its possible if we can encourage PVP fighting early on than the teams will know to depend on eachother for brave victory rather than despise eachother and begrudge eachother pixels.

[Bondrake]

I still can't get over how grown man children can't let go of an awful PVP server and keep coping by creating new threads of a new PVP server like it's the 2nd coming of Christ. Sad. Just plain sad.

[magnetaress]

Team EVIL
Troll
Dork Elf
Half Eff (they are bastar step children anyway, lets assume they are all half dorks)
Gnermz

Team GOOD
Barbarian
High Alf
Dwarf
Halfling (gross)

Team ?
Erudite (self enlightened masters of the universe and peacemakers with everyone)
Ogre! <3
Wood Erlf
Human

Iksar
(on no-ones team but can do a high lvl and very hard annoying quest to join one of the three)

Or

Tall
Highelf
Woodelf
Troll
Halfelvez

Short
Dwarf
Gnome
Barb
Half

Mediocre
Human
Erudite
Ogre
Dork

Iksar (maybe again in their own pool, kill grandmaster glox for a free pass to w/e team u like?)


Don't nerf vision to classic lvls and leave titanium vision in.

Think both team options would be pretty darn fun )

both team sets give every team but team iksar every class, sorry iksars, u suffer for the privilage of being #1 and starting in kunark all by urself get gud

[magnetaress]

Team EVIL
Troll
Dork Elf
Half Eff (they are bastar step children anyway, lets assume they are all half dorks)
Gnermz
Wood Erlf
Human

Team GOOD
Barbarian
High Alf
Dwarf
Halfling (gross)
Ogre! <3
Erudite (self enlightened masters of the universe and peacemakers with everyone)

^^ two teams? vanilla

Iksar and Kerans on team good and evil, karens get iksar regen and AC :D

[Jeni]

You really don't want immune characters on a PvP server that is destined to have little to no GM involvement. We are all cross teaming scumbags and you will just be trained by people you can't even attack if teams are a thing. People will buff / rez while being immune or if thats not allowed help pell cc / dots off their friends on enemy faction characters etc

[magnetaress]

You really don't want immune characters on a PvP server that is destined to have little to no GM involvement. We are all cross teaming scumbags and you will just be trained by people you can't even attack if teams are a thing. People will buff / rez while being immune or if thats not allowed help pell cc / dots off their friends on enemy faction characters etc

I agree lol. No amount coding/ of blocking trade/communication in game will make a difference either.

Thats why I favor old school rules, no YT, and vanilla, so ppl can enjoy the game, pvp is fast, no one is ever really immune to dying, and have fun without worrying to much about shenanigains and crazy insanebearding.

Losing a naggy to a train aint that big a deal compared to dying in the back of seb even.

WOuld be real funn(y) to have Iksar vs Kerrans only tho on a custom box lol. Guess both races could have all classes unlocked + AC, regen and sneak/hide/forage for everyone

maybe give them human stats both, so it would be an even matchup