[RANT] Why Red 2.0 would suck even if it ever happened

[Jeni]

Medris Yesterday at 10:38 PM
There is nothing against the rules about pvping someone while they are kiting. There IS something against the rules around intentionally attempting to cause someone exp loss. Honestly in the event this type of situation happened & we were asked to make a ruling, we would need to review recordings to make a call one way or the other to determine if there was evidence that the intention was to cause exp loss.

Clueless enforcement of server rules will always be a thing because none of the GMs know what a PvP server is or willing to take the time to find out.

I'll spell it out for GMs in an attempt to help them understand. City of Mist is a zone, a guild will gravity flux all members besides the bard to unreachable locations. The bard then power levels hundreds of new alts that your guild will have to fight. The bard moves fast, you can't kill a fast bard, so you attempt to slow him down, the entire zone worth of mobs catch him and he dies, you get a two week suspension or more for PvP'ing a bard.

Alternatively your other option is to tuck your tail and follow stupid rules enforced by people who have never played on a PvP server and the enemy levels unlimited alts for you to fight but you can't even pvp them while they are leveling and then lose raid targets to a clearly very fun and engaging PvP playstyle.

The correct solution for a PVP server is and you might have guessed it but it's actually PvP! You and your guild PvP for zone control to allow your bard to safely power level your guild and have other guild members ready to help you defend so you can maintain zone control. Swarming 5+ characters constantly should carry risks.

On red the exp is so fast no one cares about an exp death outside of griefing noobs but everyone gets hard when they can convince some GM to ban the competition for 2 weeks + for no reason.

[BiG SiP]

you could also not play on a dead pvp server

[Jeni]

I don't play anymore but I did log on and kill two people in Mistmoore a few days ago so I'm probably already banned again for PvPing.

[White_knight]

I logged into red99 a few weeks back, maybe a month or so ago onto a secret alt.

OOC is dead.

PvP is dead.

Raiding is dead.

All that was left was what appeared to be a bunch of new players holding on so they can reach level 60 on a Project99 server and 75pct of them will quit and go back to blue or green once they realise the shit stain of a server Red99 became/is.

I threw some OOCs out about how dead the server was and someone messaged me telling me why they were putting me on /ignore.

Would literally rather play a 59 Paladin on Blue with 2-3 bits of raid hear vrs a 60 Paladin with tons of clickies, weapons, gear.

Reason: EQ is an MMO, you play to play with other's...Red99 basically is a single player server where people pencil in group sessions and collect gear from camps they normally won't ever get to see on Blue/Green.

It's not dissimilar to when you grow up and your parents tell you only 1 chocolate per day from the fridge, so you and your siblings dance around all excited when you get your one chocolate, it's a fun shared experience...but on red it is when you grow up and can buy a whole packet of chocolate and you can gorge it all down in one night, lonely, and have no one to share the experience with....and then you just end up fat and lonely with 10x level 60 toons decked in NToV gear.

So ultimately all you end up with is 10 empty chocolate packets and no experiences, or fun.

(Hopefully some of you can relate the chocolate to character's relationship).

[strongNpretty]

Then stop logging in. Wtf is wrong with you people.

[Jibartik]

Then stop logging in. Wtf is wrong with you people.

dealers choice? :D

[Jeni]

Can we please get back on topic on why the next server will be a failure and not why this one already is one please thanks.

[Gustoo]

A super sad post like that from Jeni is pretty meaningful to me and is definitely real discouragement.

I would hope that staff learns a thing or two since 10 million years ago when Red 1.0 was created. In a zone like COM obviously any damn possible thing you can do is on the table. It should be virtually impossible to get a ban for doing anything to players on PVP server with the possible exception of some raid interruption stuff that is probably over my head.

Maybe we should just ban Bards?

[Kief]

its because everyone crys so much so they come up with shit like this.

cant blame them

[Fame]

I think the best approach is the Wild Wild West option. No rules, let the server police itself. Balance is bland. The forces of good and evil should be free to battle each other for supremacy. It would be way more engaging imo and the thrill of victory against all odds would be increased ten fold. The chaotic neutral server police faction would be fun as fuck imo

[Gustoo]

Can we please get back on topic on while the next server will be a failure and not why this one already is one please thanks.

I think the fact is that if they roll out another PVP server it will be another "take it the way we give it to you, and STFU and like it you worthless piece of shit" scenario, like red1.0 has been.

And I get really tired of people saying "well you don't pay for it so you gotta eat a dick!" its like, okay. If I could pay money to get a good server I would, but it's not an option so I'm not.

I certainly can't afford to pay a programming team to go through and fix all the problems that project 1999 has fixed over the course of 10 + years to set up an alternative server.

So YEAH I am left with whatever p99 staff chooses to do.

We want to contribute and offer feedback to make the server as functional as possible but most of us don't feel like the feedback is being heard, so it hurts my feelings. I know that staff seems to listen to high level raiding guilds because of all the crazy ass rules they have on blue99 to support their raid desires. I don't know at what level a person or guild becomes a "Factor" enough for staff to choose to communicate with you. That also makes a person feel bad.

Making me want to move on hard to splatoon 2 but shit damn I like hanging out in kelethin.

[Izmael]

I'm not sure what's the rationale behind prohibiting "intentionally causing exp loss". It's player versus player, and making the other lose exp certainly falls into the "versus" category.

Same for training. I never understood why training can be a bannable offense on red. It's just another way of utilizing environment for PvP, like LoS, water dodging, guard faction or Z-axis.

Everything should be allowed except blatant game-breaking exploiting / MQ and such.

[Gustoo]

I think the best approach is the Wild Wild West option. No rules, let the server police itself. Balance is bland. The forces of good and evil should be free to battle each other for supremacy. It would be way more engaging imo and the thrill of victory against all odds would be increased ten fold. The chaotic neutral server police faction would be fun as fuck imo

Kunark only iksar only jungle PVP with zero rules that aren't hard coded. Dreaming of a year or 2 of excellent battle.

[Thulian]

if i had a dollar for every stupid bard i made zone on red with my wizard id have enough to take luls out to red lobster

literally just nuke them as they travel THE SAME CIRCLE over and over

[Fame]

The most fun I ever had on this server was a flowers of happiness friendly wizard porting for clarity killing anyone I felt like targeting. I’m not a raider or super obsessed with bis gear so my personal opinion is probably skewed and does not matter but as a casual player I had a lot of fun on red over the years and raided maybe 5 times total since 2011

[Gustoo]

I'm not sure what's the rationale behind prohibiting "intentionally causing exp loss". It's player versus player, and making the other lose exp certainly falls into the "versus" category.

Same for training. I never understood why training can be a bannable offense on red. It's just another way of utilizing environment for PvP, like LoS, water dodging, guard faction or Z-axis.

Everything should be allowed except blatant game-breaking exploiting / MQ and such.

I think it is because it is too easy for only 4 or even 2 people to permanently disrupt most raids if training is allowed. You can ruin a 100 man raid group with a couple good people dropping NPC's on them. Not sure if there is a way to combat that without rules. Maybe. Well I guess if it was permadeath start at bind at level 1 people wouldn't be able to keep up the trains?

[Gustoo]

Also I would be super duper pissed if I got a two week ban for rooting a bard in city of mist. Seems mega dumb and disgusting. I'm pretty upset right now just thinking about it you can probably tell from the back to back multi-posts.

[BiG SiP]

I think the best approach is the Wild Wild West option. No rules, let the server police itself. Balance is bland. The forces of good and evil should be free to battle each other for supremacy. It would be way more engaging imo and the thrill of victory against all odds would be increased ten fold. The chaotic neutral server police faction would be fun as fuck imo

instead, red got blubie retards like Gade, Amelinda and eunomia and the forgettably named later guides policing OOC for using normal words like PraS and flame agate

[magnetaress]

I rooted a bard once. They deserved it.. were foolishly training the entirety of EK. Another time @ aviaks. It's honestly fair play. People should play more carefully on red. Pull more carefully, thoughtfully etc. A lot of pixel entitlement going around on all the EMUS. Reds no exception sadly. People think they can do whatever. With zero consequences.

U probably got banned for interfering with a VIP.

It's way worse on live.

Same shitshow in MM on green and probably Crystal Caverns on blue.

Imma say sorry you got banned. Common sense is lacking with so much these days and anger and jealousy rules. You should have been fine to root em for being greedy. And reckless.

[Gustoo]

Never heard of ropethunder but look at this guy engaging on p99 red forum

https://www.project1999.com/forums/showthread.php?t=34744

Looking back to project 2011

[Gustoo]

You should have been fine to root em for being greedy.

Yeah thats the entire point of PVP server that guys can't troll around with impertinence. They might get rooted. ETC

[magnetaress]

Can't play reckless on red. You need a pumice at least if ur gonna bitch about getting rooted.

Well, should be that way. Honestly don't think we'll be heard though.

It's the bards own damn fault for having 40 mobs pulled.

[Tunabros]

still need new red

[magnetaress]

Players will always find ways to cheese the system. Whether it be trains. Pelling mobs. Or fraps quest. GMs should be very conservative with bans. Only like if 90% of the server is making unique and separate serious allegations of regular foul play.

[Thulian]

I think it is because it is too easy for only 4 or even 2 people to permanently disrupt most raids if training is allowed. You can ruin a 100 man raid group with a couple good people dropping NPC's on them. Not sure if there is a way to combat that without rules. Maybe. Well I guess if it was permadeath start at bind at level 1 people wouldn't be able to keep up the trains?

on rallos before we killed raid targets WE CLEARED THE ZONE OF TRASH

oh shit , nothing to train, see you in thurgadin

[dennardscott86]

https://i.imgur.com/XLTFcWj.jpg

[Gustoo]

on rallos before we killed raid targets WE CLEARED THE ZONE OF TRASH

oh shit , nothing to train, see you in thurgadin

Hey if that is legit all it takes for a raid to be protected against training then I support no rules against it but I know training was also bannable there and there really was a lot
More honor especially among the people who got to 50 and then to 60

[Tunabros]

https://i.imgur.com/XLTFcWj.jpg

deep

[Jibartik]

God damn I love Stand by me.

[magnetaress]

Training wouldn't be as big a deal if each side could field 150 ppl.

Really with low pop trains are dumb.

Just don't play here if you want bigggg pixel content or someone to do the work for you.

Do play here if you're content doing 12 man content and want to ROLEPLAY, pvp, and build up a 150 player team.

Boxers and mads don't want to see that ever, so they're gonna train and neg the box @ every opportunity.

Got to fight that.

Quote me. Quote me on discord. Copy paste to /ooc. Don't get mad. Get gud. Or go home (elsewhere lol).

Still fucking dumb Jenny got banned for rooting a trollbard exploiting COM and being a reckless dork Training themselves.

[Nexii]

Even a handful of people could keep a raid of 150+ wiped in the rooted TOV meta if training was allowed.

Probably need a looser ruleset for exp zones and a stricter one for raiding. But yea all we have is 7 year old rules and the state of the server shows for it

[magnetaress]

It's probably worth it to try and aim for fair play knowing ppl will pay dearly for it instead of just giving up and going completely berglord wild wild west.

PvP is fun. I spent a year playing on a 12 person box with constant trains in hate and fear. So like I don't need to re-hash that part of my life. I'll be ready to buff and heal ppl when the time comes for 2021 :D

[heartbrand]

I think a lot of people love the concept of PvP contesting for spawns and raids but then when they actually see what PvP really is like (being ganked mid PvE fight, training, dispelling mobs or raid interference, people camping countless alts for long battles of attrition that involve hugging zone lines etc.,) they check out.

The other part is just how incredibly annoying dying in EQ can be. World PvP in WoW, back when it was a thing, was fine because you had a skirmish where the worst case scenario was a bad run back to your body. Dying on red99 can literally involve you being SOL for hours until someone can summon your corpse if it’s particular bad. That makes it exciting but also creates an atmosphere where most people are terrified to engage in PvP unless the outcome is certain. This then in turn leads to most people joining a single “Zerg” guild for protection and success. Perhaps a well executed teams server with sufficient population would solve this but I think it would require some non classic changes to how raid mobs are handled. As long as the model is classic 5-7 day spawns where winner takes all and you can sit there and shut a raid down for hours, people will get burnt out and most will take the path of least resistance.

Anyways my elf novel is done now.

[magnetaress]

I think a lot of people love the concept of PvP contesting for spawns and raids but then when they actually see what PvP really is like (being ganked mid PvE fight, training, dispelling mobs or raid interference, people camping countless alts for long battles of attrition that involve hugging zone lines etc.,) they check out.

The other part is just how incredibly annoying dying in EQ can be. World PvP in WoW, back when it was a thing, was fine because you had a skirmish where the worst case scenario was a bad run back to your body. Dying on red99 can literally involve you being SOL for hours until someone can summon your corpse if it’s particular bad. That makes it exciting but also creates an atmosphere where most people are terrified to engage in PvP unless the outcome is certain. This then in turn leads to most people joining a single “Zerg” guild for protection and success. Perhaps a well executed teams server with sufficient population would solve this but I think it would require some non classic changes to how raid mobs are handled. As long as the model is classic 5-7 day spawns where winner takes all and you can sit there and shut a raid down for hours, people will get burnt out and most will take the path of least resistance.

Anyways my elf novel is done now.

Good read, your sentiment is accurate. Real EQ is almost too inconvenient outside of those needing a feeling of nostalgia for 6 hrs, then we tend to move on. Or find easier ways to fix that nostalgia. (This is the appeal of other servers that allow boxing, fast exp gain, boosts to 55, live and it's gearing in later expansions to re-live older content to some extent, etc).

I think this box is what it was meant to be, and that isn't the most popular thing out there because most people are returning to EQ to get the epics and NTOV and legacy loot they didn't get in 2001.

The server (current) is viable for RP PvP and twink battles, but not gonna be what people expect PvP to be by todays contemporary standards.

Your thoughts are greatly appreciated HB.

[Gustoo]

I also very much appreciate heartbrands sentiment especially as he spent a lot of time raiding here and still occasionally posts. Thanks dude.

I completely agree with all of what HB said, but that is why I never raided and only have leveled one character up to 50+ by myself (gustoo) ever in my entire life. I don't like to grind, grinding is work. I like to adventure. Adventuring is fun.

Thats a big reason why I am so seriously interested in seeing item loot come to pass, because I like PVP at level 10, 12, 16, and that spretty much it. I might make a level 20 guy just to hit those level 16 wizards when they're rustling my level 12 caster's jimmies or something.

PVP at max level is really inconvenient because even without PVP a lot of these raids take a LONG TIME so to work for a LONG TIME just to have some guy come and train your raid is really really just barfable. I don't know the best way to handle that because I have basically no personal experience dealing with it at all. For me I have raided so seldom that I still think they are fun and exciting because end game content is still a new adventure for me.

Sullon Rules with no PVP range and 2 teams at least fixes the OOR trainer and OOR healer issues that exist on the current server. The fact is that a fresh start might degenerate into current red99 in a year or 2 or 3 but then we do another fresh start with some fixes and we all have fun for a while again.

This is a game designed for fun that is why its mind boggling that red1.0 has been ignored for so long when a whole lot of people would have enjoyed the fresh take. MAYBE its because the concept of using 1 stable server like Blue 99 and now Red 99 as the final destination server for ALL other servers to allow for character permanence is NEW to this community. Its a good idea and lets them have REd99 as a permanent parking lot and playground for your characters while Brown 99 gets people a fresh shot.

Raiding on EQ is meant to be hard and inconvenient that is really the point of these encounters.

I think there has to be raid PVP rules because just coming and fucking up a raid and robbing 2 or so hours of 50+ peoples lives seems wrong. I know it is cool (to be the one dealing that damage) but as HB is stating here, how many people are willing to put up with that shit?

And thats why we had all those rules crop up right? I recall rules about people having a viable raid force before going to PVP against a raid party. I know it is against the open world nature of what I like about EQ PVP but it makes sense in many ways. You can harass the hell out of all those characters while they are in transit, but waiting for them to gather their force in front of a dragon then using the environment to just destroy those peoples evening seems wrong. There were player made and also sony / verant made rules for raids on Live too, probably for similar reasons. I am very unfamiliar with these. It seems like the Loot and Scoot rule for raid encounters was a pretty legitimate way for people to contest, and then lose and be rejected from the equation for the duration of the raid encounter.


THEN AGAIN I can feelerz the perspective of a team with 30 people barely trying to kill dragons versus a 120 person guild that logs on ONLY for raids and never PVP's while collecting all the dragon loot. What is the junk guild supposed to do? I remember these vibes when Nihilum was thriving. People didn't want to join, but it was the only smart way to get raid pixels.

Thats why I really don't like rulesets or really anything that tries to favor the raiding population. Raiding sucks, and if we make it all about raiding we make it all about a small amount of limited targets that only a small amount of people can access. The META of this game is basically never supposed to be reached. It is Everquest. Expansions should be coming out to make you obsolete by the time you finally learn the ropes of the latest encounter.

[magnetaress]

I'm fine getting rolled into blue with my red chars, if it means I can play a new red and my blue alts will be there. I enjoy leveling on red. Don't enjoy blues atmosphere. But its ok if my characters went there to make room for a fresh adventure.

Really don't want to relevel them, but it'd be fun on a new classic red99 hopefully even, vanilla server with lots of banded and rawhide.

I agree. The vastness of EQ is intended to be immense and untouchable. Velious dragons staying up eternally isn't at all immersion breaking to me.

The META of full BIS loots is odd to me personally. But I can also see why people put in the efforts for it. I would if I could too.

[Ret.SaxonAlex]

if evil team always dominates why not just combines neutral and good? Did someone already say that idea?

[magnetaress]

if evil team always dominates why not just combines neutral and good? Did someone already say that idea?

Huge thumbs up to this. I think team evil could survive without druids personally, paladins. Rangers.

But probably not bards. Give half elf innoruuk, rallos, bertox, cazic bards. It's anti eq lore but tolerable to me.

I think vztz was balanced team wise too. Not sure.

[Ret.SaxonAlex]

But probably not bards. Give half elf innoruuk, rallos, bertox, cazic bards. It's anti eq lore but tolerable to me.

I am glad you have said this. I have always supported evil bards. I literally thought there were dark elf bards. Not because I'm so unaware of mask of deception but because while hunting evil noobs I have been chased down by bards before. I guess I just assumed they were evil because they were in evil zones. But even if in some situations bards are bad, they are the police and evil team needs them especially to hunt down uber twinked rangers. Especially if they have no track. I remember a bard hunted me down and totally could have killed me but spared me. I was going down the obvious escape route in hopes he would think I would go the other way and wrong move. Hmmm maybe he wasn't /shrugs. My memories from being a kid might be overblown because I wanted to be the best hunter ranger lol /shrugs. Ill always be a ninja

[magnetaress]

Bards are supposed to be spies and agents of veeshan. So it stands to reason they'd infiltrate everything everywhere.

I bet a lot of bards got the mask just to RP evil.

[Ret.SaxonAlex]

indeed. It would be cool if they added evil bards and I want to add them in super Everquest. If I ever make super Everquest I hope I am not bummed out that I am the one that made it. Which may make it boring because there are probably more than one reason in the soul that makes you not want to like a great game that you made. That's one reason I feel bad for Brad McQuaid. But oh well maybe its my duty. Some things I would want to definitely make sure are in the game.

[Dulu]

Clueless enforcement of server rules will always be a thing because none of the GMs know what a PvP server is or willing to take the time to find out.

I'll spell it out for GMs in an attempt to help them understand. City of Mist is a zone, a guild will gravity flux all members besides the bard to unreachable locations. The bard then power levels hundreds of new alts that your guild will have to fight. The bard moves fast, you can't kill a fast bard, so you attempt to slow him down, the entire zone worth of mobs catch him and he dies, you get a two week suspension or more for PvP'ing a bard.

Alternatively your other option is to tuck your tail and follow stupid rules enforced by people who have never played on a PvP server and the enemy levels unlimited alts for you to fight but you can't even pvp them while they are leveling and then lose raid targets to a clearly very fun and engaging PvP playstyle.

The correct solution for a PVP server is and you might have guessed it but it's actually PvP! You and your guild PvP for zone control to allow your bard to safely power level your guild and have other guild members ready to help you defend so you can maintain zone control. Swarming 5+ characters constantly should carry risks.

On red the exp is so fast no one cares about an exp death outside of griefing noobs but everyone gets hard when they can convince some GM to ban the competition for 2 weeks + for no reason.



This is absolutely true.

It's like when Israel sent assassins a few weeks ago to kill that Iranian "scientist" in broad daylight. Yes - he may be a peaceful scientist, going about his day, but he's ultimately a weapon of war.

The bard is "Just PVE'ing", which would fall under protection to an ill informed GM, much like the scientist is a "civilian", but they are both fair game in my eyes.

[Ret.SaxonAlex]

The best thing to do on a fan developed community in which limitations of change are minimal is to just not try to enforce to many pvp rules unless its loot and scoot and hope the community doesn't abuse it. And only try to enforce the most severe of infractions such as intentional trains. Rooting a bard stealing all of your mobs to farm on an enemy guild should not apply. But that would be in a perfect universe. Its hard to tell people, "I dunno man, just dont be a dick."

Like but not exactly like, sparring practice. In sparring, not always necessary to knock each other out. Sometimes going medium speed is good, in order to allow more training to become better warriors. Rather than be one great warrior in one fight and never fight again and then never become a better warrior.

[Larken]

It's not dissimilar to when you grow up and your parents tell you only 1 chocolate per day from the fridge, so you and your siblings dance around all excited when you get your one chocolate, it's a fun shared experience...but on red it is when you grow up and can buy a whole packet of chocolate and you can gorge it all down in one night, lonely, and have no one to share the experience with....and then you just end up fat and lonely with 10x level 60 toons decked in NToV gear.

So ultimately all you end up with is 10 empty chocolate packets and no experiences, or fun.

(Hopefully some of you can relate the chocolate to character's relationship).

That's a good analogy and one of the drawbacks of playing on Red - the lack of population and it feeling empty.

But on the other hand, when I've tried to play on blue/green I feel like it's all meaningless, all these hours invested into a charachter that will never be able to use his gear to compete against others and I can't stomach staying there. I guess what intrinsically separates us Red99:ers vs the bluebies is that we're competitive people.

So with those 2 negative options, I personally feel like the least bad option is to play Red99.
Also, I think most people on Red99 are really nice folks contrary to its reputation so that's not a factor that I hear so often on the forums about its toxicity - not true. Sure, perhaps very end game raiding, but what can you do.... I know I'd rather deal with that than lawyer questing and standing in line for pixel kills on blue/green.

Thanks for your input.