Daybreak is Being Acquired

[loramin]

The Daybreak Game Company will be acquired by EG7 Global, following a deal announced earlier today that's worth $300 million (cash and debt-free). EG7 had just acquired Piranha Games, developer of MechWarrior 5: Mercenaries and MechWarrior Online, for $24 million.

https://wccftech.com/daybreak-game-company-to-be-acquired-by-eg7-for-300-million/

Here's hoping the new overlords keep the agreement with Project 1999 ...

[BiG SiP]

i bet they feel pretty silly right now

[Trexller]

Here's hoping the new overlords keep the agreement with Project 1999 ...

Maybe they will, just a few days ago they started to crowdsource game info from us

[Tunabros]

I don't think they will care about project 1999

they make shit loads of cash off people willing to pay for 40 accounts just to box

[Swish]

Most people on the TLPs have played P99, arguably some kept their love for EQ alive here before going back to enjoy new Freeport, boxing 3-4 accounts and whatever else they can't do here.

[hewopepweow]

I'm sure a mega-rights holder conglomerate is going to be super chill with p99.

Their website homepage is a quarterly earnings report with links for investors, seems super chill.

[Swish]

EQ Next revival ?

[douglas1999]

I mean daybreak had the decency to make the original agreement, they had every incentive to just shut it all down too, and didn't. Maybe these guys will either be too big to even notice we're a thing, or will have the same decency. Or maybe the elf party is over. I hope not :(

[Trexller]

Are all the other emulator servers operating under some agreement with daybreak?

if not how are they able to use daybreak's IP?

[axisofebola]

Are all the other emulator servers operating under some agreement with daybreak?

if not how are they able to use daybreak's IP?

Probably because daybreak did nothing to require them to do otherwise.

[loramin]

Are all the other emulator servers operating under some agreement with daybreak?

if not how are they able to use daybreak's IP?

They are operating in violation of the relevant IP law ... as P99 did for nearly ten years.

However, it's a very gray area. P99 (and other emulators) don't copy any of the server code: in other words Rogean and Nilbog aren't infringing on Daybreak's rights, because they wrote 100% of the server code themselves.

It's possible that Daybreak retains a copyright on the API (outline) of that code: there's currently a Supreme Court case deciding whether APIs can even be copyrighted. But even if the Supremes decide they are (and god I hope they don't), I imagine it'd still be a hard case to litigate.

The real IP violation is in the client: technically it's all of us players who are violating Daybreak's IP (when we download Titanium) ... and the same is true of players on every other emulated server. Pre-agreement everyone just relied on the fact that no company wants to waste lawyer money tracking down individual players (just look at the RIAA and Napster ...).

The agreement simply made everyone feel safer, because it promised that Daybreak wouldn't do the thing they (probably) weren't going to do anyway: go all RIAA on every emulated EQ player.

[Fammaden]

Maybe they will only ask for green to be shut down so it isn't competing for their TLP players.

[douglas1999]

If they were actually worried about green siphoning players from their tlps they'd shut down green and just make their own green with the exact same mechanics and without all the gay ass new freeports and shit

[BarnabusCollins]

They're making way too much money off their crap version of live servers to ever retort to old code/graphics (pre luclin)

[axisofebola]

Ya know, sleeping dogs and all that jazz?

I think we could try to be a bit more cordial. especially given the end of the stick we find ourselves on.

[Ripqozko]

Hopefully they shut it down and no one else can get warder loot. Sorry in advance.

[Blingy]

The real IP violation is in the client: technically it's all of us players who are violating Daybreak's IP (when we download Titanium) ... and the same is true of players on every other emulated server. Pre-agreement everyone just relied on the fact that no company wants to waste lawyer money tracking down individual players (just look at the RIAA and Napster ...)

So splitting hairs here. Since I (and I assume most others) purchased titanium long ago wouldn't that put us in the clear? Granted I don't currently have the box or the product ID but did at one time purchase the software I still own the rights to use it.

[Naethyn]

I purchased titanium when I started.

[JayDee]

If they were actually worried about green siphoning players from their tlps they'd shut down green and just make their own green with the exact same mechanics and without all the gay ass new freeports and shit

Do you have any idea how much work went into getting p99 to it's current state.

We are talking 7 figures worth of programming and r&d

[douglas1999]

Do you have any idea how much work went into getting p99 to it's current state.

We are talking 7 figures worth of programming and r&d

I know :( Just trying to be optimistic, I'd hate to see this place get axed

[Topgunben]

From my perspective, I cant see them caring because p99 is such a small population. The fact that this isn't a paid subscription probably keeps 90% of the people playing here.

It would be like buying public beachfront property and then trying to charge $15 for admission when it used to be free. No one will go.

[BiG SiP]

I purchased titanium when I started.

uh, um yeah, me too!!!~

[Baler]

Who is Enad Global 7? Where did they come from and who is funding these actions...

---
Here is the video for the Piranha Games Acquisition
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uJ4D2zUC-48

I use to play MechWarrior Online until Piranha Games did nothing with it and ran it into the ground with micro-transactions and lootboxes.

[cd288]

They are operating in violation of the relevant IP law ... as P99 did for nearly ten years.

However, it's a very gray area. P99 (and other emulators) don't copy any of the server code: in other words Rogean and Nilbog aren't infringing on Daybreak's rights, because they wrote 100% of the server code themselves.

It's possible that Daybreak retains a copyright on the API (outline) of that code: there's currently a Supreme Court case deciding whether APIs can even be copyrighted. But even if the Supremes decide they are (and god I hope they don't), I imagine it'd still be a hard case to litigate.

The real IP violation is in the client: technically it's all of us players who are violating Daybreak's IP (when we download Titanium) ... and the same is true of players on every other emulated server. Pre-agreement everyone just relied on the fact that no company wants to waste lawyer money tracking down individual players (just look at the RIAA and Napster ...).

The agreement simply made everyone feel safer, because it promised that Daybreak wouldn't do the thing they (probably) weren't going to do anyway: go all RIAA on every emulated EQ player.

It’s pretty tough to make a strong legal case that you didn’t misappropriate by building essentially the exact same game but using your own code to do it. Really not a strong case.

That being said, I think P99 will be fine. Probably have a solid promissory estoppel argument at this point

[Nuggie]

Treat each day like it's a gift, mates.

[adichi]

i thought before the daybreak agreement project1999 was operating in a grey area which allowed them to stay open? how would that be any different after the acquisition if they decided to renege on the agreement?

[douglas1999]

i thought before the daybreak agreement project1999 was operating in a grey area which allowed them to stay open? how would that be any different after the acquisition if they decided to renege on the agreement?

If by "grey area" you mean they simply hadn't been shut down yet, sure. The agreement wasn't some kind of legally binding document, it was just an acknowledgement by the people who own the IP (daybreak) that they are not going to cease and desist this project- given certain conditions, like not releasing new servers (like green) around the same time daybreak were releasing new TLP servers or new expansions. Legally speaking, it was pretty generous on daybreak's part. They didn't have to grant any of this, which is why a change of ownership of the IP could throw the entire agreement into the shithole.

[Tethler]

i thought before the daybreak agreement project1999 was operating in a grey area which allowed them to stay open? how would that be any different after the acquisition if they decided to renege on the agreement?

That's true. P99 has become a bit more high profile in recent years though. More people know about it now. It will be harder to fly under the radar.

[Coridan]

Daybreak management and personnel aren't changing (at least not yet but I doubt it will) this is just another investment group adding something to their portfolio for a couple years. Just an actual gaming focused investment group. Either way they aren't involving themselves in the nitty details.

[Miauler]

I doubt they'll do anything to P99, but you never know. Just look at what Nintendo has done to Smash Bros mods over the past few months. They're sending out C&D letters left and right, banning tournaments and streaming... and that kind of thing doesn't affect the revenue of a company the size of Nintendo, they're just needlessly aggressive about their IP. Hopefully P99 flies under the radar or the new investment company just doesn't care enough to go after us.

[OuterChimp]

I have a Minecrfat realm. PST send tells please if you'd like an invite.

If i like you, I'll summon you a diamond sword.

[Baler]

P99 is not-for-profit which is very unique in the EMU scene.

I have faith in our overlords to keep the lights on.

[Baler]

if you think p99 is not for profit you are delusional

It's contractual you nitwit.
https://www.everquest.com/news/project-1999-daybreak

Keep in mind there is a difference between not-for-profit and non-profit.

[firesyde424]

More proof daybreak turned all soe games into cash machines by investing nothing now turning a massive profit and walking away, great company imo.

Also i would say kiss p99 goodbye as they will have to renegotiate with a bigger company that will say no 90%

I would expect to see this happen again in another 4-5 years. Like it or not, that's the typical investment cycle. I believe the SOE split that created Daybreak was in early 2015. Combined with time to find a buyer, negotiate, work out the financing, ect... you are at right about 5 years ROI for the original investors in Daybreak.

[Arvan]

They are operating in violation of the relevant IP law ... as P99 did for nearly ten years.

However, it's a very gray area. P99 (and other emulators) don't copy any of the server code: in other words Rogean and Nilbog aren't infringing on Daybreak's rights, because they wrote 100% of the server code themselves.

It's possible that Daybreak retains a copyright on the API (outline) of that code: there's currently a Supreme Court case deciding whether APIs can even be copyrighted. But even if the Supremes decide they are (and god I hope they don't), I imagine it'd still be a hard case to litigate.

The real IP violation is in the client: technically it's all of us players who are violating Daybreak's IP (when we download Titanium) ... and the same is true of players on every other emulated server. Pre-agreement everyone just relied on the fact that no company wants to waste lawyer money tracking down individual players (just look at the RIAA and Napster ...).

The agreement simply made everyone feel safer, because it promised that Daybreak wouldn't do the thing they (probably) weren't going to do anyway: go all RIAA on every emulated EQ player.

Im not an IP lawyer but i assume writing your own clone of copyrighted IP and using it to run a server is still a violation.

[apprentice04]

allowing p99 to exist would make it harder to defend in court though, not that p99 staff has the money to fight in court.

this kind of thing came up a lot when blizzard shutdown private servers. they had to force them down to keep the copyright on their IP

[loramin]

You are stupid, they started with titanium and modified it from there, a violation which required a written agreement once daybreak bought soe IP

Your "deeply biting criticism" :rolleyes: is missing the fact that P99 operated for nearly a decade prior to the agreement ... and also the fact it's you who modifies the Titanium client; R&N just provide a patch file. There's nothing illegal about them writing a (non-copyrighted) patch for some old software that happens to be copyrighted.

Really, the most potential legal risk for R&N isn't even law yet; it's the potential outcome of: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Google_LLC_v._Oracle_America,_Inc. If Oracle wins, companies can claim a copyright on the way a server talks to the client (their "API"). If that happens, even implementing an old server that follows the API Verant developed 20 years ago could be considered a violation of Veran'ts "copyright on the API".

But even if the Supremes screw up and rule the wrong way (it looks like they might: in arguments they didn't even seem to understand what an API was :() ... there's still an incredibly important difference in that case: lawyer money. Oracle has a reason to spend millions going after Google for that case, because they want to "own" any implementation of Java (even if someone else wrote every line of code in it). There is not even close to a similar financial incentive here.

And it is that which truly protects this place. Again, the Daybreak agreement was just about making everyone feel good: P99 scratched Daybreak's back (by delaying a server release until after a new Daybreak server came out, and by generally maintaining positive vibes with them) ... and P99 got even more assurance that legal action (which already wasn't happening) really wouldn't happen. It was about feels, not meaningful legal protection.

[BiG SiP]

>arguing with tomato king in good faith

https://i.imgur.com/bZxJuKW.gif

[loramin]

Im not an IP lawyer but i assume writing your own clone of copyrighted IP and using it to run a server is still a violation.

Neither am I, but I've read a lot about IP law. Quick refresher: whenever you make a "creative work" (software code, book, Tik Tok video, whatever), you immediately own exclusive rights to copy it. If someone else copies it without your permission, you can go to court to take all the money they made.

Server: R&N copied nothing from the old Verant code. In fact, even the current Daybreak servers copy little-to-nothing from the old Verant code, because that original code from 1999-2001 has been lost forever. Since R&N hand-wrote every line of the server, they own it.

Client: That code is copyrighted ... but R&N don't ever use that client, nor do they share it with us, so we're the only ones violating that copyright (although as I said before, legal details would make filing claims against us even more difficult than the RIAA going after Napster users).

Client Patches: We patch the client with code R&N wrote ... but they own the copyright since they wrote it. The only legal concern comes from the "Terms of Service" that came with that client two decades ago, which prohibit unofficial patches ... but enforcing those terms would be even harder than enforcing the copyright. Remember EQW back in the day? It similarly was prohibited by the TOS, but Verant couldn't stop it because it wasn't illegal; all they could do was ban players caught using it.

So to recap, you can only violate copyright by copying what someone else wrote. There is zero copied code on the server, or anything else R&N touch. The only copyright violation comes from us players downloading the Titanium client, in violation of Daybreak's copyright ... but even so, the simple fact is that it would cost them far more money to pursue the issue than they could ever possibly hope to gain.

[Tunabros]

So to recap, you can only violate copyright by copying what someone else wrote. There is zero copied code on the server, or anything else R&N touch. The only copyright violation comes from us players downloading the Titanium client, in violation of Daybreak's copyright ... but even so, the simple fact is that it would cost them far more money to pursue the issue than they could ever possibly hope to gain.

Pretty true. But let's face it, the majority of us totally got titanium legitimately

[axisofebola]

Pretty true. But let's face it, the majority of us totally got titanium legitimately

I suspect the "majority of us" bought multiple client versions over the years, and almost everyone bought at least one.

[kjs86z]

similar thing happened to asherons call

rip p99

[Tongpow]

https://i.imgur.com/zaDwEv6.gif
rip p99

[7thGate]

Server: R&N copied nothing from the old Verant code. In fact, even the current Daybreak servers copy little-to-nothing from the old Verant code, because that original code from 1999-2001 has been lost forever. Since R&N hand-wrote every line of the server, they own it.


This isn't fully true because of some of the database info. Specifically, NPC quest implementations are stored serverside, and are copied from from the original as best as they can be reconstructed. Its also not clear to me if the mob HP and spawn locations count as copyrightable data or not. This is complicated though, as I know you can't copyright game rules. While that almost certainly protects stuff like the combat formulas and the code which represents the character's presence in the 3d world, I have no idea if that extends to specific text that's embedded in the game or not.

I wouldn't be too worried about this in general, as my guess is that the cost-benefit to attempting to sue this place down is bad. For one, Rogean could probably actually get enough donations to mount a real legal defense if it came to that, so they would probably actually need to lawyer through it. Second, there's a written agreement that P99 is allowed to function which you would need a court to agree is unilaterally revokeable. While that might be the case, I suspect that complicates the situation. Third and most importantly, its extremely questionable whether they get any money from pursuing this course of action, which makes it really not worth the hassle.

[axisofebola]

similar thing happened to asherons call

rip p99

They closed asheron's call something like a decade after being acquired by a larger company. The same company even reopened AC2, which turbine had already closed down before being acquired. I highly doubt either would have been closed if they were moderately profitable.

[Tongpow]

Its also not clear to me if the mob HP and spawn locations count as copyrightable data or not.
wasn't this why Winter's Roar shutdown and made Shards of Dalaya 15 years ago. they literally took out all the everquest stuff and wrote their own lore,quests,npcs..etc

lfg/lfguild if they get spared lol
https://shardsofdalaya.com/fomelo/fomelo.php?char=Oshieh

[BiG SiP]

no worries lads
reliable sources deep within the elder elf council indicate that, in a moments notice a new server can be spun up DEEP in Eastern Europe under armed guard protection by senior elf cabal security forces

[loramin]

This isn't fully true because of some of the database info. Specifically, NPC quest implementations are stored serverside, and are copied from from the original as best as they can be reconstructed. Its also not clear to me if the mob HP and spawn locations count as copyrightable data or not. This is complicated though, as I know you can't copyright game rules. While that almost certainly protects stuff like the combat formulas and the code which represents the character's presence in the 3d world, I have no idea if that extends to specific text that's embedded in the game or not.


Like anything legal, the correct answer is "what a judge decides, not what us armchair lawyers decide". However, we can make educated guesses based on precedent, with the relevant precedent in this case being an old lawsuit over phone books: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Feist_Publications,_Inc.,_v._Rural_Telephone_Servi ce_Co.

Basically, phone book maker A made a phone book. Phone book maker B copied every last name and phone number in that book, but re-arranged them in a new formatting. The court held that names/phone numbers were facts, and that facts can't be copyrighted (so B was off the hook because they didn't copy A's book, only the facts in it).

This is the legal source of why you noted "I know you can't copyright game rules": game rules are "facts" in a legal sense, and so aren't copyrightable. Only the specific written instructions explaining those rules (ie. the rulebook itself) can be copyrighted.

It seems likely (again, not a lawyer or judge) that the fact "mob ____ was at ____ location and respawned in ____ amount of time" would not be considered copyrightable information.

[Shrubwise]

Lizard1 it sounds like you’re very afraid of losing pixels

[Andyman1022]

Judge will decide they are hosting an everquest server, whos ip is now owned by a different company. They created a project to modify their ip and allow users to connect to it

not sure how dumb you are but the avatar pic suggests that you have an iq around 75

Confirmed lawyer for EG7

[BarnabusCollins]

You guys are making a mountain out of a mole hill.

[Tunabros]

well if p99 gets shut down, I'm not hopping on TLP

would this apply to all EQ EMU servers like Al'KAbor, The Grand Creation, etc?

[SantagarBrax]

WTB Luclin/PoP Timelocked on P99, if you're listening EG7!!

(Must allow xfer of Blue toons one way) $20 a month and two cheeseburgers

[axisofebola]

You guys are making a mountain out of a mole hill.

nah. this could be very serious or it could be a nothing burger. We have to wait and see.

That said, I think that the original agreement(s)i f recorded/written could prove vitally important in any kind of tort. When You buy another company you don't just gain their assets but also their liabilities, including contractual ones.

[Master Roshi]

I'd be shocked if Daybreak didn't reserve the right to modify their agreement with P99, in which case EG7 could easily re-do their evaluation of the circumstances. But I guess we will see.

[Rang]

i hope they close blue/green and only leave open red server

[loramin]

Judge will decide they are hosting an everquest server, whos ip is now owned by a different company. They created a project to modify their ip and allow users to connect to it

not sure how dumb you are but the avatar pic suggests that you have an iq around 75

Did you even read anything I wrote? Daybreak doesn't own the IP for the P99 server; Rogean and Nilbog do. Period. It is 100% unique software, written 100% independently, and in a legal sense it is not in any way connected to any IP Daybreak owns.

But please, if you're so certain in your legal analysis, and understanding of how software works ... answer this one simple question: what IP specifically are R&N infringing on?

[Jibartik]

2020 hits norrath.

[Jibartik]

Ironically the forums/wiki are the most $ valuable aspect of p99

[Grumph]

Ironically the forums/wiki are the most $ valuable aspect of p99

Wow.

So just put up some adds on the wiki. and the forums.
Toss the rev up to the new overlords as an honor sacrifice.
Keep a portion for 'servers and stuff fam.'

360 win.

Right there for the taking.

[Grumph]

Plot twist:

Forum and wiki accounts must then be associated with real life in person legal name. Address. Sex. Ethnicity. Religious affi. Income Bracket. Relat stat and number of kids. Pets.

You know. For science!

[firesyde424]

Successful investors, usually, aren't dumb. Having said that, if they don't know the community well, it's entirely possible for them to see the overall popularity of the EQEmu community and mentally translate that into lost revenue. It's not a big leap from that to the new investors going Nintendo on the community, P99 included, thinking that it will translate into higher revenue by forcing everyone to play on "Live."

[imperiouskitten]

what IP specifically are R&N infringing on?

evarquest

how not??

prefab followup: wuold a judge agree with you?

prefab subfollowup: wuould rogaine and niglob pay the lawyers needed to see the case?

I wouldn't doubt that a company doing 300mill acquisitions could outmuscle our humble beards-o-the-neck in the courts if I were you, however strongly you feel about the legal argument in principle. Like it or not this spot is a zit on the vagina of capitalism. God Bless smedley for respecting our lady as she was, but who knows wot the future holds.

[BlackBellamy]

There is no grey area, they had a written agreement not to launch new content that allowed it to stay open. Any new agreement must be re negotiated now.


That's not how things work. Do you think when AT&T bought Warner Brothers that the seventeen million contracts that Warner Brothers negotiated became invalid overnight and everything had to be re-negotiated?

Also literally not one brainiac legal eagle in this thread has access to the complete Daybreak agreement so it's just tongues flapping.

Finally, the whole are they allowed to or copyright questions or what is legal or what is a gray area are great theoretical questions for the classroom. What happens in the real world is the big company just sues anyway, right or wrong doesn't matter, just to bury the other party in legal bills. And the small player folds 96% of the time.

[imperiouskitten]

That's not how things work. Do you think when AT&T bought Warner Brothers that the seventeen million contracts that Warner Brothers negotiated became invalid overnight and everything had to be re-negotiated?

Also literally not one brainiac legal eagle in this thread has access to the complete Daybreak agreement so it's just tongues flapping.

Finally, the whole are they allowed to or copyright questions or what is legal or what is a gray area are great theoretical questions for the classroom. What happens in the real world is the big company just sues anyway, right or wrong doesn't matter, just to bury the other party in legal bills. And the small player folds 96% of the time.

depends if it was a contract or an "agreement". p99's lack of legal standing would lead me to believe it was a handshook "agreement", but hey, those people are totally incompetent so maybe they signed their lives away to ROgaine. Kinda doubt it since youd need to involve an attorney to generate your legal bonds, and they'd advise against it unless really really incompetent, so I'm thinking "your dumb", ass usual, although i think the overall point about big & little fish is the more important dynamic anyway tho.

[BiG SiP]

https://i.imgur.com/99aKino.gif

[douglas1999]

I hope this new company understands that this matter is to be decided in *elf* court. They know that right?

[Kelika2]

Successful investors, usually, aren't dumb."

Hey lets buy some 20+ year old video games that are not smartphone compatible in a smartphone world that are horrifically time consuming and expensive to operate.

[Swish]

Hey lets buy some 20+ year old video games that are not smartphone compatible in a smartphone world that are horrifically time consuming and expensive to operate.

The 10-boxing TLP nerd is propping it up.

[loramin]

evarquest

how not??

"EverQuest" is not intellectual property. Intellectual property is a copyright, a patent, a trademark, etc.

Daybreak owns the trademark to the term "EverQuest", just as The Coca-Cola Company owns the trademark to "Coke". But that doesn't mean that Rogean can't use the word "EverQuest" here ... if it did it would mean Coke could take down any anti-coke website for using their trademark! To violate it Rogean would have to (say) print and sell EverQuest t-shirts.

Daybreak also owns a copyright both on the server code from 1999-2001, and on the Titanium client. As I explained previously, the server code is lost to time: it doesn't matter who owns the copyright on it. The server code used here is 100% hand-written; it may copy "facts" about the '99-01' server, but every line of code is written and owned by R&N.

The only relevant intellectual property involved is Daybreak's ownership of the copyright on the Titanium client. As I noted it would be .... challenging for Daybreak taking anyone to court over it, but hypothetically they could go after us players over it.

They likely never will, for the same reason record companies don't sue MP3 downloaders anymore (even though they clearly violate more relevant/recent IP) ... but even if they did it'd be our necks on the line, not R&N's.

prefab followup: wuold a judge agree with you?

Again, not a lawyer ... but all it takes is a couple hours of reading wikipedia to understand the basics of intellectual property law. Based on that, my non-lawyer self doesn't see what IP R&N are violating.

prefab subfollowup: wuould rogaine and niglob pay the lawyers needed to see the case?

This is a relevant point; it doesn't matter who will win in the end if you can't afford to fight the suit, and there's truth to Bellamy's point that:

What happens in the real world is the big company just sues anyway, right or wrong doesn't matter, just to bury the other party in legal bills. And the small player folds 96% of the time.

But at the same time, obviously rich people can't just sue random people into oblivion :) You need a case, ie. you need to show damages, ie. someone has to violate your IP ... and I still don't see anyone violating anything, except us players violating 20-year old Titanium copyrights.

[Swish]

If P99 ceases to exist I'll go back to my TAK Project characters, if they pull that down I might try Wayfarer's Haven but probably not.

I can't/won't deal with the half-assed effort on the live TLPs in terms of all the shortcutting, kronos and mindless CSR there.

Good luck to everyone else :)

[loramin]

The 10-boxing TLP nerd is propping it up.

EQ Live has 66k active user accounts (https://images.mmorpg.com/images/contentImages/492020/EG7-Daybreak-Presentation-MAU-Metrics.jpg). If I had to I'd be they have less than 33k humans behind those accounts ... quite possibly less than 15k ...

[Tunabros]

If p99 and all of EQ emu gets shut down, where we all going?

I'm not touching TLP unless they drop their ridiculous price of like 15 bucks just to play

old content

[DoodyLich666]

Remember to try to have fun with your time in the sandbox.
It can all go poof one day.

[firesyde424]

Hey lets buy some 20+ year old video games that are not smartphone compatible in a smartphone world that are horrifically time consuming and expensive to operate.

They aren't buying the game, they are buying the Daybreak company which consists of considerably more than just Everquest. Like most things, the people who purchased Daybreak wouldn't have done so unless they felt they could not only see their investment returned, but something additional on top.

They likely will have seen Daybreak's financial situation and performed a significant amount of investigation to determine if Daybreak made sense to purchase.

[axisofebola]

But at the same time, obviously rich people can't just sue random people into oblivion :) You need a case, ie. you need to show damages, ie. someone has to violate your IP ... and I still don't see anyone violating anything, except us players violating 20-year old Titanium copyrights.

Assuming the client was legally obtained I don't see how players here violate any copyright. They could theoretically be violating the EULA, however, which would only have consequences able to be meted out on their own servers. So that could be consequential for those players here who still play on dabyreak's servers.


As far as that former lawsuit where "facts" can't be copyrighted, I have some serious doubts about that reading of it. You'd never have to buy another math textbook again at a university, for instance. people who provide testing/test prep material would just blatantly steal everything from everyone else.

I suspect what that lawsuit actual detailed was related to things that are purely factual. This is why people can freely write biographies of other peoples' lives without fear of being sued. However, I can't just copy someone else's biography word for word and go out and sell it.

[Jibartik]

If p99 and all of EQ emu gets shut down, where we all going?

Why to windows of the bedrooms of the executives of EG7 of course!

https://i.imgur.com/OeHB29L.png

[axisofebola]

Why to windows of the bedrooms of the executives of EG7 of course!

https://i.imgur.com/OeHB29L.png

Threats should generally only be resorted to when negotiations have broken down, especially when you hold the weak hand at the table.

[Supreme]

P99 won't ever br shutdown. At the very worst they will see an opportunity to turn some cash and port p99 into them for a fee of course.

I expect nothing will change though.

[Tunabros]

what they gonna do? sue us? lol




I will miss this game if they destroy it =(

[Jibartik]

I have a feeling things will be ok. Has anyone looked into the past of this EG7 company? I wonder if they have any presidents.

[Topgunben]

Did you even read anything I wrote? Daybreak doesn't own the IP for the P99 server; Rogean and Nilbog do. Period. It is 100% unique software, written 100% independently, and in a legal sense it is not in any way connected to any IP Daybreak owns.

But please, if you're so certain in your legal analysis, and understanding of how software works ... answer this one simple question: what IP specifically are R&N infringing on?

Ever heard of the golden rule? - He who has the gold, makes the rules!

So while you may be technically right, you could also be severely underestimating a company with 10 of millions of dollars at their disposal with a legal team that does nothing but hunt down potential copyright infringements.

Bottom line is, I still don’t see them bothering simply because there isn’t enough meat on the bone to make a difference. Hell, even if a thousand p99 players donated $10 a month every month, that’s still only $120,000 a year. That’s hardly enough to pay 2 employees salary.

[Fammaden]

I think its clear that the green server needs to be shut down to ensure the future of the project. It has brought far too much mainstream attention to P99 and excess players.

Plus its only a matter of time before some green player with untreated mental health problems snaps over an epic drop or a warder loot and hurts himself or someone else IRL. Then the bad publicity will carry over to the official product and retaliation will be swift.

[Tunabros]

I think its clear that the green server needs to be shut down to ensure the future of the project. It has brought far too much mainstream attention to P99 and excess players.

Plus its only a matter of time before some green player with untreated mental health problems snaps over an epic drop or a warder loot and hurts himself or someone else IRL. Then the bad publicity will carry over to the official product and retaliation will be swift.

if we delete green, everyone will run to blue and ruin the server

[douglas1999]

Green roolz, blue is 4 loser ass retards. Get on the green train while you can

[Jibartik]

purple purple purple!

[Tunabros]

Green roolz, blue is 4 loser ass retards. Get on the green train while you can

that's direspectful!

all my best memories and good friends I made was from that server!

Odephon if you see this, I miss you! I still remember we killed snakes in blackburrow

together!

looking for the following old friends: Bakamez, Anuerysm, Odephon

[zaldaben]

not a bad deal for the owner for daybreak. he gets 10 percent of eg7 voting shares for the sale for 300 mil. not so sure about the 900 million in debt eg7 took out to acquire and finance the acquisition of daybreak.

https://www.enadglobal7.com/press/7758700B9A777D34/

They have also used this to acquire piranha gaming and big blue bubble.

financials are attached.

swedish company known as toadman for a while. the ticker symbol publ ( I think, cant find it on any exchange but its the only reference I could find on https://www.cnbc.com/quotes/?symbol=EG7-SE&tab=profile and I even checked international ones as well as searched toadman and Enad)

according to their financials they have not came close to industry standards in a lot of areas and have taken on a massive amount of debt to buy these companies. according to their own website a few of their officers have already cashed out and sold their portion of the company.

CEO Gary Williams and COO James Cato to be specific.

Their website is transparent on who their officers are but not so much on what their strategies are or what particular games their design folks actually worked on.

It will be interesting to see how this plays out. Daybreak really doesnt develop much but it appears they were acquired by a company that does, but just doesn't say what they have actually worked on without further digging. Admittedly I am too lazy to dig that much into it.

EG7 board members can be found here if you want to check it out,

https://www.enadglobal7.com/management/

also they are looking at a 31 million a year return or EBITDA (Earnings Before Interest, Taxes, Depreciation, and Amortization) which means after they pay all the taxes and financing costs they are probably going to be around 22-23 million if I had to ball park it. it will take 13 years to pay off the 300 million price tag and still have millions in debt. they wont see a solid return for a long time.

In all honesty other than expanding for the sake of expanding I do not see the financial strategy here. maybe someone on here smarter than me can help me see it.

[Ret.SaxonAlex]

It would be nice if the company who owns the rights and the users could have some sort of agreement of rights and enjoyment of the game. Like in World of Warcraft if people thought a certain expansion was bad, then to some relative degree have a server changed if there is enough votes. I understand it would be hard for companies leadership to accept to change something due to users saying something they own or made was bad. I wouldn't mind paying to play p99. Just dont make me play another game.

[Swish]

Imagine 5 years from now and nothing new has been added to any of the existing franchises they just took over.

[zaldaben]

thats what I am worried about. I dont see them having the capital to cover their debt obligations and invest into RnD

[Swish]

Planetside 3? EQ Next revival?

They've got options, but I don't see them as the sort of people who are going to go for a Triple A release of anything.

[Baler]

what's next for EQ live?
re-make luclin expansion.

they did re-make kunark and re-make velious as the last two expansions.

:)

[douglas1999]

Explore cats on the moon mk2!:

- Begin your journey at level 119!
- Five thousand new AA's to unlock; increase your magi-stamina to 1255!
- Battle mushroom people *and* space horses- *finally*
- Choose from a wide assortment of faerie capes and\or gingerbread mounts!
- Select your preferred flying carpet archtype!

[Kelika2]

EQ Next revival?

I hope not, the warcraft X disney look in a minecraft setting was pretty off putting.

[Mblake81]

Explore cats on the moon mk2!:

- Begin your journey at level 119!
- Five thousand new AA's to unlock; increase your magi-stamina to 1255!
- Battle mushroom people *and* space horses- *finally*
- Choose from a wide assortment of faerie capes and\or gingerbread mounts!
- Select your preferred flying carpet archtype!

*Rocket Launcher! (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2FRx_Rcpiks)!*

[heartbrand]

I have no idea what will happen but I am fairly confident that Rogean isn’t going to pay millions of dollars in attorney fees defending his right to host p99 if it ever actually came to real legal action, regardless of the Constitutional Law essays in this thread from esteemed high elven lawyers.

[Tunabros]

tbh they probably didn't buy daybreak for EQ (remember daybreak is in charge of other

games like H1Z1 (battle royal), planetside 2 (Basically battlefield), etc)

there's a chance they might not even care and still honor the agreement

[elkay]

tbh they probably didn't buy daybreak for EQ (remember daybreak is in charge of other

games like H1Z1 (battle royal), planetside 2 (Basically battlefield), etc)

there's a chance they might not even care and still honor the agreement

EQ1 is DBG's largest revenue generator. All of the game subscriber numbers and revenue numbers for all DBG portfolio were disclosed by EG7 accompanying a press release. EQ1 even edged out DCOU, even though DCOU has over 6 times the active accounts. The document also laid out EXTENSIVELY about monetizing the current user base looking forward.

Do I think the emu community will be ok? Yeah, but there are no guarantees with any change of ownership of any company or IP. These concerns aren't completely unwarranted.

[loramin]

I have no idea what will happen but I am fairly confident that Rogean isn’t going to pay millions of dollars in attorney fees defending his right to host p99 if it ever actually came to real legal action, regardless of the Constitutional Law essays in this thread from esteemed high elven lawyers.

While this is true to an extent ... again, a company can't just sue a person (or another company, or any entity) without cause. I don't care if the Walmart corporation itself hates me with a fiery fiery passion, and deploys all their vast legal resources against me: they cannot bring me to court without cause. If they did, I wouldn't need a lawyer: the judge would throw the case out.

This place didn't operate for a decade without an agreement because Rogean is an idiot who wants to be sued. He has very deliberately drawn a legal line to keep himself safe, for instance by preventing any links to download Titanium here.

Obviously a link to the client would be very convenient ... but that would expose Rogean legally, because then he'd be (potentially) facilitating copyright infringement of IP owned by Daybreak.

[imperiouskitten]

While this is true to an extent ... again, a company can't just sue a person (or another company, or any entity) without cause. I don't care if the Walmart corporation itself hates me with a fiery fiery passion, and deploys all their vast legal resources against me: they cannot bring me to court without cause. If they did, I wouldn't need a lawyer: the judge would throw the case out.

This place didn't operate for a decade without an agreement because Rogean is an idiot who wants to be sued. He has very deliberately drawn a legal line to keep himself safe, for instance by preventing any links to download Titanium here.

Obviously a link to the client would be very convenient ... but that would expose Rogean legally, because then he'd be (potentially) facilitating copyright infringement of IP owned by Daybreak.

copyright violation would be the cause. they are running a bootleg EverQuest server. you could definitely get it heard :p

[getsome]

https://i.imgur.com/petyvpK.jpg

[BiG SiP]

I have no idea what will happen but I am fairly confident that Rogean isn’t going to pay millions of dollars in attorney fees defending his right to host p99 if it ever actually came to real legal action, regardless of the Constitutional Law essays in this thread from esteemed high elven lawyers.

https://i.imgur.com/QONVIyz.gif

[imperiouskitten]

https://i.imgur.com/petyvpK.jpg

we already know that's rogaine's argument, although I'd love to see if a few subpoenas actually bore out the lack of financial connection with p99s related profit-making websites. I'm not saying I think it should happen, although it would be sweet justice for hijacking the EQEmu community into a proprietary shithole. just being sane here, they are operating a bootleg EverQuest server. That's grounds enough to get it heard, and with financial muscle p9 would cave. just sayne.

[zaldaben]

Any agreement prior to the sale will be nullified and must be re negotiated.



They can do whatever they want, everquest is their property



I would love to see red get a pop spike, if half of the playerbase tried red they would see its better.



I dont read what you write because you are an idiot, this new company owns all ip rights and distribution for everquest on all platforms on all servers and now has the legal right to shut down all private projects, regardless if you think rogean owns p99 because you think he made it from scratch ( Lol idiot )



No the contracts didnt become nullified overnight, but they reserve the right to modify them because the original issuing party was sold, just like when a company merges or aquires another they have the legal right to liquidate your stock position and give warrants at a different amount and turn your position to shit.



Operating cost is close to 0, they paid 300m because their franchises are extremely profitable, do you have 300m? 300k? Even 3000 dollars? Bet you dont.



If they do a sweep they will target eq emu first, which they should.



Smart guy



It was already shut down when daybreak took over, guess you forgot fat idiot.



Daybreak added nothing new, they turned a stale business model into a cash machine and made more in 1 year then soe did in 10



What debt? You think a company that pays 300m for another one has financial problems?



To you, but young gamers these days are a different species then us.

Did you not see the financials I posted as well as their own public release where they also just took out 900 mill in debt to acquire daybreak? or the debt to capital ratio of 44 when by most standards 2 is risky? they have a decent quick ratio but if you look deeper into their numbers their company is incredibly leveraged.

[douglas1999]

It still seems odd that in 11 years of this server existing, not to mention all the other eqemu servers, SOE never took measures to stop any of it, nor did daybreak, really, even though they both had the same financial incentives to shut it all down that people are saying this new company will act on. Unless these guys are particularly litigious or ruthless compared to soe or daybreak, there's 11 years of precedent to suggest they won't do anything.

[zaldaben]

It still seems odd that in 11 years of this server existing, not to mention all the other eqemu servers, SOE never took measures to stop any of it, nor did daybreak, really, even though they both had the same financial incentives to shut it all down that people are saying this new company will act on. Unless these guys are particularly litigious or ruthless compared to soe or daybreak, there's 11 years of precedent to suggest they won't do anything.

To be fair I am not saying they will stop it. What I am saying is they will own the IP and appear to be on track to go bankrupt in 2-3 years which the IP address will go bye bye

[strongNpretty]

11 pages of reasons to just enjoy this game right now, today, right this very minute.. Don't read into anything else here, just login, adventure, meet some cool folks, and enjoy the game. NOW.

[zaldaben]

also with the amount of debt they just took out and their debt ratios I doubt they will want to litigate anything

[Evia]

Wouldn’t it be awesome if this L7 company or whatever actually really LOVE EQ and went in debt just to acquire the IP? Maybe they have Brads Vision to direct all their resources into creating a live version of P99 (maybe even buying code from Rog just to do it) and also to re create a real updated Everquest 3?


One can only dream....

[loramin]

copyright violation would be the cause. they are running a bootleg EverQuest server. you could definitely get it heard :p

Again, copyright on what? They didn't copy the server code: they wrote it 100% from scratch (and, again, it's impossible for anyone to copy that code, as it's been lost to time). You don't need to be a lawyer to know you can't "violate" copyright on something you aren't copying!

But again, all the art and code in the Titanium client 100% is copyrighted ... which is why R&N won't touch it with a ten foot pole.

[getsome]

It still seems odd that in 11 years of this server existing, not to mention all the other eqemu servers, SOE never took measures to stop any of it, .

They did

[zaldaben]

Wouldn’t it be awesome if this L7 company or whatever actually really LOVE EQ and went in debt just to acquire the IP? Maybe they have Brads Vision to direct all their resources into creating a live version of P99 (maybe even buying code from Rog just to do it) and also to re create a real updated Everquest 3?


One can only dream....


I like your dream... I really do. I would love to see an updated relaunch of EQ or EQ Next that we have been promised for so long. like I said before I just dont see them having the capital to cover the RnD that would require and cover their debt obligations. UNLESS they get a huge private investor. which that would really be a dream and I would absolutely buy a subscription to try it out.

[douglas1999]

They did

Who, soe? Or Daybreak? Daybreak *kinda* did, but they were reasonable enough to work out an agreement. The primary concern here is that the new company shuts the whole thing down entirely. That has not yet happened in 11 years, would be my point.

[zaldaben]

Who, soe? Or Daybreak? Daybreak *kinda* did, but they were reasonable enough to work out an agreement. The primary concern here is that the new company shuts the whole thing down entirely. That has not yet happened in 11 years, would be my point.

sony was far more aggressive with their lawsuits from what I remember. I am not an expert nor was I ever in a deposition. From what I read Daybreak was like woah woah woah guys, then after a conversation they where like... you know what thats cool good luck. I am sure there are some devs and GM's on here that can provide a much clearer picture.

[cd288]

Again, copyright on what? They didn't copy the server code: they wrote it 100% from scratch (and, again, it's impossible for anyone to copy that code, as it's been lost to time). You don't need to be a lawyer to know you can't "violate" copyright on something you aren't copying!

But again, all the art and code in the Titanium client 100% is copyrighted ... which is why R&N won't touch it with a ten foot pole.

This isn’t 100% true. If you create the exact same game...same mechanics, same visual effects and art and graphics, same names for everything, etc. etc. you can probably still get dinged for copyright violations because it’s not just code that’s subject to it.

The analogy here would be like painting the same exact thing using a different type of paint.

[zaldaben]

This isn’t 100% true. If you create the exact same game...same mechanics, same visual effects and art and graphics, same names for everything, etc. etc. you can probably still get dinged for copyright violations because it’s not just code that’s subject to it.

The analogy here would be like painting the same exact thing using a different type of paint.

If you create a product while employed by a company unless there is a specific agreement typically the rights to what you have created belong to the company you work for, not yourself. the guy who invented the stick it notepads comes to mind who never made a dime from it.

[loramin]

This isn’t 100% true. If you create the exact same game...same mechanics, same visual effects and art and graphics, same names for everything, etc. etc. you can probably still get dinged for copyright violations because it’s not just code that’s subject to it.

The analogy here would be like painting the same exact thing using a different type of paint.

As I understand it (again, not a lawyer) that's not a good analogy either. It's more like if I write a book explaining the rules of a game, and then someone else writes a book that explains those exact same rules (but using different words).

It's pretty well-established that the above case is legal: you can go into your local book store and find a "Dungeons and Dragons for Dummies" that is basically a "copy" of the Player's Handbook ... but because it's written with completely different words, from scratch, WotC isn't going after the Dummies people.

Or, for another analogy, thing about video game emulators. You can download tons of emulators of various video game systems, even though they duplicate (but don't copy) code from the original NES, SNES, etc. The emulators are 100% legal ... it's the ROMs that are a copyright problem, because they are literal copies of old NES cartridge code.

[douglas1999]

sony was far more aggressive with their lawsuits from what I remember. I am not an expert nor was I ever in a deposition. From what I read Daybreak was like woah woah woah guys, then after a conversation they where like... you know what thats cool good luck. I am sure there are some devs and GM's on here that can provide a much clearer picture.

I'm not aware of sony filing any lawsuits against eqemu or p99, but if they did, clearly they weren't successful because here we are; the server continues to operate out in the open. I'm just saying there's a logical reason not to worry too much about it just based on how the last 11 years have gone, but I'm no expert either.

[zaldaben]

I'm not aware of sony filing any lawsuits against eqemu or p99, but if they did, clearly they weren't successful because here we are; the server continues to operate out in the open. I'm just saying there's a logical reason not to worry too much about it just based on how the last 11 years have gone, but I'm no expert either.

you could be 100 percent correct. I am just going off what I remember which was years ago when I wasnt really active in the EQ community. I am just going off what I recall reading which is bits and pieces here and there. Like I stated before I am not worried about the company trying to lawyerquest p99 out of existence, I am more worried about them going under after acquiring the IP and trademarks and what happens next. I am looking at multiple things.

1 company recently changed names - they usually only do that for mergers or to avoid legal litigation under a previous name

2 a few of their top exec's have jumped ship and sold out but still retain partial ownership

3 they list companies that a few of their developers have worked on but no specific games they worked on, if they had worked on Fortnite you can bet they would list it

4 they are in an incredible aggressive over leveraged expansion

5 they fail to preform even close to industry metrics on any charts and far underpreform

6 most of their financial ratios are in the toilet

7 they took out 900 million while acquiring a company for 300 million ( also yes I understand they arent issuing this debt all at once, it will be through offerings)

8 disregarding the 900 million and looking at the 300 million they bought it for and their own projected returns you are looking at 12-13 years just to pay back the principle before they see a return. In the gaming world theres a lot of games that come and go within 13 years and their projections can dwindle quickly if they cant provide new content. - compare it to the blue population once green opened up. no new content people look for other stuff. I simply dont see them having the capital to maintain or get a return and still being able to develop new content.

[getsome]

Who, soe? Or Daybreak? Daybreak *kinda* did, but they were reasonable enough to work out an agreement. The primary concern here is that the new company shuts the whole thing down entirely. That has not yet happened in 11 years, would be my point.

https://forums.mmorpg.com/discussion/44706/soes-cease-and-desist-on-winters-roar

[-TK-]

Always an interesting topic that I wish I had more time to research on my own. IMO, I don't think it would be as complicated as many think to stop P99. I see P99 as a derivative piece of work with the sole function of imitating a copyrighted piece of IP. I don't think a court would have a hard time coming to that line of thought if pushed to it. I'm not up on all the latest rulings on how the courts view code, though. I'm looking at it more as a piece of art as a whole. They could easily argue damages despite P99 not being for profit.

At the same time I'm also not sure it isn't better for business than not to have P99 around. I'm fairly certain I wouldn't have known or signed up for Aradune and leveled two toons to 60 if I wasn't already on the P99 hook. So, mostly because of people on P99 making me aware that Aradune was happening, Daybreak gained 2 subs. I'm sure I'm not the only one in that boat. /shrug

As far as the agreement with P99 staying valid, it will be up to the discretion of the new owner either way. There's a lot of factors in the sale that could affect it, but even if the new owner assumed the agreement there's nothing (that we publicly know of) that could stop them from ending or renegotiating the agreement if they have the rights to the IP.

[imperiouskitten]

Again, copyright on what? They didn't copy the server code: they wrote it 100% from scratch (and, again, it's impossible for anyone to copy that code, as it's been lost to time). You don't need to be a lawyer to know you can't "violate" copyright on something you aren't copying!

But again, all the art and code in the Titanium client 100% is copyrighted ... which is why R&N won't touch it with a ten foot pole.

*old judge completely covered in hair looks down at docket* so they connect to this "Rogaine"s intarnet website, and that lets them play the copyrighted EverQuest material for free? so they are hosting copyrighted material. Dr. Dershowitz here explained it to me very well over dinner last night. Open n shut. See y'all, i'm goin to epstein island!

(ps: the server code was retrievable from Al'Kabor until very late and I have a pet theory that it was taken, however it's only TAKP which has netcode so good as to make me suspicious :p mob and item database, however, tingles my tinfoil)

[Swish]

x pages of reasons to just enjoy this game right now, today, right this very minute.. Don't read into anything else here, just login, adventure, meet some cool folks, and enjoy the game. NOW.

[zaldaben]

Always an interesting topic that I wish I had more time to research on my own. IMO, I don't think it would be as complicated as many think to stop P99. I see P99 as a derivative piece of work with the sole function of imitating a copyrighted piece of IP. I don't think a court would have a hard time coming to that line of thought if pushed to it. I'm not up on all the latest rulings on how the courts view code, though. I'm looking at it more as a piece of art as a whole. They could easily argue damages despite P99 not being for profit.

At the same time I'm also not sure it isn't better for business than not to have P99 around. I'm fairly certain I wouldn't have known or signed up for Aradune and leveled two toons to 60 if I wasn't already on the P99 hook. So, mostly because of people on P99 making me aware that Aradune was happening, Daybreak gained 2 subs. I'm sure I'm not the only one in that boat. /shrug

As far as the agreement with P99 staying valid, it will be up to the discretion of the new owner either way. There's a lot of factors in the sale that could affect it, but even if the new owner assumed the agreement there's nothing (that we publicly know of) that could stop them from ending or renegotiating the agreement if they have the rights to the IP.

I can personally say I wouldnt be playing everquest if it wasnt for p99. I can promise you if the new company decides to go back on any previous agreement I sure as shit wont sign up for them or support them for wiping out the... probably millions of hours people have spent playing and making this project work without getting paid for it.

[t2.0]

This is an interesting subject. I only know of copywrite law from watching it in action in other forms of entertainment but...…

Loramin- Let's say you have 2 entertainers. By some crazy chance they use the same name and the same act. If 1 trademarks it and the other keeps doing it, isn't it infringement of copywrite? Despite the idea that they were independently created? Who owns the everquest IP? You think daybreak won't be able to argue in court that p99 has created a bootleg copy of daybreaks IP despite the fact that a lot of it was independently created?

Why I think the new investors may be forced to act is that I know IP law is very much "defend it or lose it". Like if daybreak doesn't defend their IP in court, they are liable to lose it completely and have 100s of EQemus for profit out there and they won't be able to do anything.

[Lune]

This forum was much more fun before they cleaned it up for daybreak though

[getsome]

This forum was much more fun before they cleaned it up for daybreak though

Top google hit during the fappening. Admins bragged about it til some liability issues started to trend.

[Vizax_Xaziv]

Daybreak management and personnel aren't changing (at least not yet but I doubt it will) this is just another investment group adding something to their portfolio for a couple years. Just an actual gaming focused investment group. Either way they aren't involving themselves in the nitty details.

The problem I think is if one of the new investors hears about P99 and decides that it represents possible new revenue -- they wouldn't necessarily understand the differences between P99 and TLPs (and their respective player bases)

[zaldaben]

The problem I think is if one of the new investors hears about P99 and decides that it represents possible new revenue -- they wouldn't necessarily understand the differences between P99 and TLPs (and their respective player bases)


I agree with ya. When a company acquires another the first thing they want to do is min max profits something most of us here on eq are familiar with.

[Vizax_Xaziv]

"EverQuest" is not intellectual property. Intellectual property is a copyright, a patent, a trademark, etc.

Daybreak owns the trademark to the term "EverQuest", just as The Coca-Cola Company owns the trademark to "Coke". But that doesn't mean that Rogean can't use the word "EverQuest" here ... if it did it would mean Coke could take down any anti-coke website for using their trademark! To violate it Rogean would have to (say) print and sell EverQuest t-shirts.

Daybreak also owns a copyright both on the server code from 1999-2001, and on the Titanium client. As I explained previously, the server code is lost to time: it doesn't matter who owns the copyright on it. The server code used here is 100% hand-written; it may copy "facts" about the '99-01' server, but every line of code is written and owned by R&N.

The only relevant intellectual property involved is Daybreak's ownership of the copyright on the Titanium client. As I noted it would be .... challenging for Daybreak taking anyone to court over it, but hypothetically they could go after us players over it.

They likely never will, for the same reason record companies don't sue MP3 downloaders anymore (even though they clearly violate more relevant/recent IP) ... but even if they did it'd be our necks on the line, not R&N's.



Again, not a lawyer ... but all it takes is a couple hours of reading wikipedia to understand the basics of intellectual property law. Based on that, my non-lawyer self doesn't see what IP R&N are violating.



This is a relevant point; it doesn't matter who will win in the end if you can't afford to fight the suit, and there's truth to Bellamy's point that:



But at the same time, obviously rich people can't just sue random people into oblivion :) You need a case, ie. you need to show damages, ie. someone has to violate your IP ... and I still don't see anyone violating anything, except us players violating 20-year old Titanium copyrights.

What about all the various art assets? Models, music, animations spell effects etc etc

I guess technically that's not being provided by this project so it's a different issue?

[imperiouskitten]

Top google hit during the fappening. Admins bragged about it til some liability issues started to trend.

it's when the weird 1d unbelievable political personas started pouring in too (or maybe we in the west are just brain draining that fast collectively, idk)

[imperiouskitten]

anyway, Winter's Roar succumbed to legal harassment so I don't see what there is to debate about

[Vizax_Xaziv]

not a bad deal for the owner for daybreak. he gets 10 percent of eg7 voting shares for the sale for 300 mil. not so sure about the 900 million in debt eg7 took out to acquire and finance the acquisition of daybreak.

https://www.enadglobal7.com/press/7758700B9A777D34/

They have also used this to acquire piranha gaming and big blue bubble.

financials are attached.

swedish company known as toadman for a while. the ticker symbol publ ( I think, cant find it on any exchange but its the only reference I could find on https://www.cnbc.com/quotes/?symbol=EG7-SE&tab=profile and I even checked international ones as well as searched toadman and Enad)

according to their financials they have not came close to industry standards in a lot of areas and have taken on a massive amount of debt to buy these companies. according to their own website a few of their officers have already cashed out and sold their portion of the company.

CEO Gary Williams and COO James Cato to be specific.

Their website is transparent on who their officers are but not so much on what their strategies are or what particular games their design folks actually worked on.

It will be interesting to see how this plays out. Daybreak really doesnt develop much but it appears they were acquired by a company that does, but just doesn't say what they have actually worked on without further digging. Admittedly I am too lazy to dig that much into it.

EG7 board members can be found here if you want to check it out,

https://www.enadglobal7.com/management/

also they are looking at a 31 million a year return or EBITDA (Earnings Before Interest, Taxes, Depreciation, and Amortization) which means after they pay all the taxes and financing costs they are probably going to be around 22-23 million if I had to ball park it. it will take 13 years to pay off the 300 million price tag and still have millions in debt. they wont see a solid return for a long time.

In all honesty other than expanding for the sake of expanding I do not see the financial strategy here. maybe someone on here smarter than me can help me see it.

Well DayBreak was working a "new MMO" very recently. This probably good news for that title - the buyers have likely seen what they have developed so far.

[douglas1999]

anyway, Winter's Roar succumbed to legal harassment so I don't see what there is to debate about

Yes it did. Yet it hasn't happened to p99 in a full decade. P99 has been more popular than winter's roar ever was for years now, long before the transition from SOE to daybreak, so why didn't SOE ever do the same thing to p99 that it did to winter's roar? I think it's at least an interesting question, if nothing else. Doesn't that seem strange and inconsistent?

Personally, my guess would be they realized that shutting down fan passion projects like this is incredibly bad PR, and may ultimately be more of a net liability to the company than a gain. I can't think of any other reason. Now that obviously doesn't mean that the new owners think the same way, but it's certainly possible. Even Nintendo got a shitload of backlash for shutting down that fan-made metroid 2 remake (AM2R), and other large companies with an interest in the gaming market might have taken notice of that.

[Bisonzabi]

https://wccftech.com/daybreak-game-company-to-be-acquired-by-eg7-for-300-million/

Here's hoping the new overlords keep the agreement with Project 1999 ...

I doubt anything is going to happen. The Everquest franchise is practically worth nothing (take a look at their game portfolio estimates).

[Bisonzabi]

Yes it did. Yet it hasn't happened to p99 in a full decade. P99 has been more popular than winter's roar ever was for years now, long before the transition from SOE to daybreak, so why didn't SOE ever do the same thing to p99 that it did to winter's roar? I think it's at least an interesting question, if nothing else. Doesn't that seem strange and inconsistent?

Personally, my guess would be they realized that shutting down fan passion projects like this is incredibly bad PR, and may ultimately be more of a net liability to the company than a gain. I can't think of any other reason. Now that obviously doesn't mean that the new owners think the same way, but it's certainly possible. Even Nintendo got a shitload of backlash for shutting down that fan-made metroid 2 remake (AM2R), and other large companies with an interest in the gaming market might have taken notice of that.

Nintendo is a huge outlier. They're notoriously mean to fan projects such as games and roms in general compared to the likes of Sega or Capcom who really endorse them. I just don't think this new owner will be specifically annoyed over a few emulated servers much like how Daybreak wasn't in the past. Of course I could be dead wrong.

[douglas1999]

Nintendo is a huge outlier. They're notoriously mean to fan projects such as games and roms in general compared to the likes of Sega or Capcom who really endorse them. I just don't think this new owner will be specifically annoyed over a few emulated servers much like how Daybreak wasn't in the past. Of course I could be dead wrong.

Right yeah I think we agree, I also don't think anything is likely gonna happen to p99, because SOE had about 6 years to do something about it and didn't.

I was saying that it's strange they *did* shut down one eq fan server (winter's roar) in the mid 2000's, but then didn't shut down this one even though it's much more popular, and the reason for that might be that they noticed shutting these things down is incredibly unpopular among the playerbase and gamers in general like when nintendo shut down AM2R, and isn't worth the bad PR they got for it.

[Blingy]

What about all the various art assets? Models, music, animations spell effects etc etc

I guess technically that's not being provided by this project so it's a different issue?

All of the art assets are indeed on our computers. When I paid for the Ruins of Kunark box forever ago their TOS made it clear I was allowed to enjoy the art and other things on my computer for personal use. Ditto for Velious, Luclin, etc.

The Daybreak TOS does say:

The Daybreak Games are licensed, not sold, to end users. Subject to your acceptance of and continued compliance with all the terms and conditions of the Daybreak Terms of Service and Daybreak End User License Agreement, during the period of time that you have an account for any Daybreak Game(s) or for a shorter period of time (as determined by Daybreak), Daybreak grants you a limited, personal, non-transferable, non-sublicenseable, revocable, non-exclusive right to load the client-side software of such Daybreak Game(s) solely in the format made available to you by Daybreak onto your personal computer, console, or other permitted device; provided that your installation of, access to and play of any Daybreak Game(s) are solely for your personal, non-commercial use and in accordance with each of the restrictions and limitations set forth in the Daybreak Terms of Service and Daybreak End User License Agreement. The client-side software may not be reproduced, transferred, distributed, sold, disassembled, reverse engineered, modified, used as a stand-alone game (without connecting to Daybreak’s game servers), or used in connection with non-Daybreak game servers. If you fail to comply with any of the terms or conditions set forth in the Daybreak Terms of Service and/or the Daybreak End User License Agreement, the Daybreak Terms of Service and Daybreak End User License Agreement (including, without limitation, the grant of permission to play any Daybreak Game(s)) will automatically terminate, whereupon you will immediately (y) cease using any Daybreak Game(s); and (z) remove (i.e., uninstall and delete) the Daybreak software from your computer system.

So if I'm interpreting the above correctly DBG has the authority to make all of us disconnect from p99. Big question though is do they think they'll gain more than loose if they choose to enforce this?

Me personally? I've done regular servers, played on FV for awhile, done a couple progeression servers and in general am done with the Sony/DBG/whoeverownsitnow servers. If the new owners do decide to bring crap to p99 I'll find another way to relax. I like the people on p99, the "you won't box your own raid" scene is pretty dam good. I'd consider going back to the live servers if and only if things were ran just like they are ran on p99; which I don't see happening. Something tells me I'm not alone.

[Cassawary]

WR took the excuse to blow up the moon zones

@Elon get on it

[elkay]

"You may not disassemble, reverse engineer, or modify any Daybreak Game(s) software in any way. You may not decrypt or modify any data transmitted between the game software and Daybreak’s game servers."

That's the part lawyers would suck up if paid money to do so, unfortunately. This was required in order to create the emulated servers because the network traffic in/out of the client needed to be researched.

And again, I don't think they would do it, but they could be real d*cks if they really wanted to be. Half the legal strategy in cases like this are to run the defendant out of legal defense funds.

[imperiouskitten]

Nintendo is a huge outlier. They're notoriously mean to fan projects such as games and roms in general compared to the likes of Sega or Capcom who really endorse them. I just don't think this new owner will be specifically annoyed over a few emulated servers much like how Daybreak wasn't in the past. Of course I could be dead wrong.

god i got all my DSes banned for playing pokemon before it released

[imperiouskitten]

Yes it did. Yet it hasn't happened to p99 in a full decade. P99 has been more popular than winter's roar ever was for years now, long before the transition from SOE to daybreak, so why didn't SOE ever do the same thing to p99 that it did to winter's roar? I think it's at least an interesting question, if nothing else. Doesn't that seem strange and inconsistent?

Personally, my guess would be they realized that shutting down fan passion projects like this is incredibly bad PR, and may ultimately be more of a net liability to the company than a gain. I can't think of any other reason. Now that obviously doesn't mean that the new owners think the same way, but it's certainly possible. Even Nintendo got a shitload of backlash for shutting down that fan-made metroid 2 remake (AM2R), and other large companies with an interest in the gaming market might have taken notice of that.

paragraph a.) I never heard of a CnD so i assume it never happened. because...:
b.) yes that's accurate, which is why we are raising this now that it's a new company in charge. it revives the concerns and speculations. Will a new faceless, overleveraged trash company make a new and stupid decision??

Now you are ready to read the thread! Go back to page 1 and catch up with us, My Genius. And don't feel bad, Elf Law is a thousands year old discipline of unfathomable prestige & complexity. Very hard to grasp without a degree from YouTube U.

[douglas1999]

paragraph a.) I never heard of a CnD so i assume it never happened. because...:
b.) yes that's accurate, which is why we are raising this now that it's a new company in charge. it revives the concerns and speculations. Will a new faceless, overleveraged trash company make a new and stupid decision??

Now you are ready to read the thread! Go back to page 1 and catch up with us, My Genius.

You would think, that if a CnD had been issued against p99, it would have succeeded. The whole argument here is that rog\bog don't have the resources or means to stand up to gigantic corporate legal pressure. No? Since the server has existed for 11 years now, either such a CnD never occured, or was defeated.

I already said that I don't know whether a new faceless company will act differently, my point was that there is a logical reason to assume they won't (it easily could have happened, and arguably was likely to given the fate of winter's roar, yet didn't), rather than to panic that they will. SoE was as cutthroat as most gigantic self interested megabusinesses. Yet P99 remains.

Can you please at least attempt to respond to me in good faith without some 5th grade insult, btw? When was the last time I called you a name?

[imperiouskitten]

You would think, that if a CnD had been issued against p99, it would have succeeded. The whole argument here is that rog\bog don't have the resources or means to stand up to gigantic corporate legal pressure. No? Since the server has existed for 11 years now, either such a CnD never occured, or was defeated.

I already said that I don't know whether a new faceless company will act differently, my point was that there is a logical reason to assume they won't (it easily could have happened, and arguably was likely to given the fate of winter's roar, yet didn't), rather than to panic that they will. SoE was as cutthroat as most gigantic self interested megabusinesses. Yet P99 remains.

Can you please at least attempt to respond to me in good faith without some 5th grade insult, btw? When was the last time I called you a name?

last time we engaged you brought up "my identity". Anyway your post was like a kid talking to the wall in a group of grownups (or at least low teens) and you've failed to rebut my dunk at all, while fielding 2 useless paragraphs (while suggesting this project may have defeated Sony in court without our hearing about it, lol you are one dizzy manlet), so don't @ me about good faith. My Genius.

Good faith would be you approaching things very gently in light of the knowledge you are very stupid, lack judgment and general competency, and have a tendency to get vicious when challenged.

[douglas1999]

last time we engaged you brought up "my identity". Anyway your post was like a kid talking to the wall in a group of grownups (or at least low teens) and you've failed to rebut my dunk at all, while fielding 2 useless paragraphs, so don't @ me about good faith. My Genius.

What? Talking about a topic you are sensitive to in a way you disapprove of is not tantamount to calling you playground insults. Relax, I'm just trying to communicate clearly on a discussion forum in a thread about discussing a specific issue, which you are not doing.

I didn't say this project defeated sony in court, I'm saying that the fact it is still up and running after 11 years is either evidence that sony never tried to shut them down, or tried and failed. It's purely logical deductive reasoning.

[imperiouskitten]

What? Talking about a topic you are sensitive to in a way you disapprove of is not tantamount to calling you playground insults. Relax, I'm just trying to communicate clearly on a discussion forum in a thread about discussing a specific issue, which you are not doing.

"Your a faggit, of course you think that!!!" is literally what you wrote. I am unsurprised your spine is flexible enough to accomodate the pretzel this post puts you in.

[imperiouskitten]

I didn't say this project defeated sony in court, I'm saying that the fact it is still up and running after 11 years is either evidence that sony never tried to shut them down, or tried and failed. It's purely logical deductive reasoning.
The way you wrote it indicated you were challenging the notion that p99 had the resources. The part where you put "No?". So if we're trying to be very clear here, let me clearly state that in addition to being a meanspirited 5'6" shit you are also not so good at expressing yourself. The post is written to interrogate the wrong facts, and does not demonstrate a clear line of deductive reasoning at all. I think you really just have stupid ass opinions and a verrrry dizzy worldview and try to deflect and defend by any means necessary, Mr. Goodfaith. In short, you are both dumb and mean, on top of being ugly and submissive.

PS you never acknowledged the thing about the centuries old discipline in the TX thread, where you were proven wrong after calling me a tranny to try and rebut me. How'd it make you feel? I trust you will answer in good faith :rolleyes:

[douglas1999]

"Your a faggit, of course you think that!!!" is literally what you wrote. I am unsurprised your spine is flexible enough to accomodate the pretzel this post puts you in.

Haha what? No I didn't. I honestly don't know what the hell you are talking about. In fact I said that I don't believe in belittling people for who they are, or bullying people for any reason.

Look I hope we can all agree that p99 is clearly a common part of our lives and that it going away would be really fuckin shitty. I don't want to keep sparring with you kitten, if I did say something which I don't recall that was shitty to you then I definitely apologize, but I don't think I did.

[imperiouskitten]

Haha what? No I didn't. I honestly don't know what the hell you are talking about. In fact I said that I don't believe in belittling people for who they are, or bullying people for any reason.

bahahah oh dear lord. Evolutionary biology is panned in the "academic community", according to person whose entire identity depends on that being true. Richard dawkins doesn't know jack squat, buddy! He said a thing that offended one of my socio-political sensibilities, so the entire centuries-long field is DEBUNKED

Yeah, cool. Go tell darwin how wrong he is about demisexuality or whatever. My 28 year old gender studies professor told me that darwin is super wrong. Good god we are doomed as a species.

(because you don't know the diff between the theory of evolution and the field "Evolutionary Biology" which largely arose in the 1980s)

Yeah I don't believe in bullying people for who they are either, you unloved little troll. All good faith here, my welfare stamp f@gg0t. Especially when my argument is that you don't know your ass from a hole in the ground. Because you don't.

[imperiouskitten]

predicting the usual no followup from doug now that he's cornered, sorry for disrupting ur thread :p the wellspring of cowardice from which all his badness flows.

no need to read this page if you already knew dougie's a far-right psycho with winter tap water IQ, which u oughta.

[Nuggie]

Seems like kitten is being childish to me /shrug. Less adult words used, more 5th grade playground words "where the adults can't hear" type stuff.

Be the change you want to see.

Let's get back to the topic and stop making threads that aren't "about me" about you.

[Bisonzabi]

Right yeah I think we agree, I also don't think anything is likely gonna happen to p99, because SOE had about 6 years to do something about it and didn't.

I was saying that it's strange they *did* shut down one eq fan server (winter's roar) in the mid 2000's, but then didn't shut down this one even though it's much more popular, and the reason for that might be that they noticed shutting these things down is incredibly unpopular among the playerbase and gamers in general like when nintendo shut down AM2R, and isn't worth the bad PR they got for it.

I don't know much about Winter's Roar, but given how EQ as a whole hit its peak popularity in mid 2000's that kind of makes sense. Of course people change their minds overtime especially when a lot of management shifts occurred by then until Day Break Games became a thing.

[BarnabusCollins]

Square Enix sent Byond.com a Cease and Desist in 2008 just because game makers used their Nintendo era (8-bit or 16 bit) graphics in their own homemade games (own code).
Consequently, byond.com morpgs died shortly thereafter, save for a few games not listed on the website.

And no games were for profit; all byond.com games were free. I thought this was shitty of SE, which made my fav. rpg of all time, the Dragon Warrior Series.

[imperiouskitten]

Seems like kitten is being childish to me /shrug. Less adult words used, more 5th grade playground words "where the adults can't hear" type stuff.

Be the change you want to see.

Let's get back to the topic and stop making threads that aren't "about me" about you.

Of course you think that, you're cis straight.

I already handed the thread back from beating in dougie's head with warrant. I'm sorry you're too stupid to grasp the evil I'm up against, but I do know of your shortcomings secondhand so no surprise when checking poster name. Stir the pot, big smart grownup and thx for the 2cp I know we all value it (lol).

[Baler]

Square Enix sent Byond.com a Cease and Desist in 2008 just because game makers used their Nintendo era (8-bit or 16 bit) graphics in their own homemade games (own code).
Consequently, byond.com morpgs died shortly thereafter, save for a few games not listed on the website.

And no games were for profit; all byond.com games were free. I thought this was shitty of SE, which made my fav. rpg of all time, the Dragon Warrior Series.

wow I forgot about byond, that's a throwback.

[JayDee]

I would say some people need to take their meds but I am pretty sure that is the problem here

[Bisonzabi]

Square Enix sent Byond.com a Cease and Desist in 2008 just because game makers used their Nintendo era (8-bit or 16 bit) graphics in their own homemade games (own code).
Consequently, byond.com morpgs died shortly thereafter, save for a few games not listed on the website.

And no games were for profit; all byond.com games were free. I thought this was shitty of SE, which made my fav. rpg of all time, the Dragon Warrior Series.

Space Station 13 is the best thing ever conceived on that platform or in general for an open source game. Actually, that makes sense that some communities were a little nervous to including textures to stuff like metroids. If SE would lose their shit over that, then Nintendo certaintly would even if its parody.

[Ret.SaxonAlex]

Hopefully we can stay positive and hope everything will be ok.

[Ret.SaxonAlex]

I always thought it would be cool if someone could make a classic EQ single player game that simulated online play. I've always wanted one of those. I wonder if one day a company owning the rights could make one and sell it. Just incase a rainy day a thousand years from now, when we all have to play McDonalds.com latest new game, I could have access to a time machine. :D

[loramin]

What about all the various art assets? Models, music, animations spell effects etc etc

I guess technically that's not being provided by this project so it's a different issue?

Exactly. All the graphics (and sounds, and other copyrighted stuff) are a part of the Titanium client ... which (again) R&N won't touch with a ten foot pole.

[loramin]

Space Station 13 is the best thing ever conceived on that platform or in general for an open source game. Actually, that makes sense that some communities were a little nervous to including textures to stuff like metroids. If SE would lose their shit over that, then Nintendo certaintly would even if its parody.

And this is where our legal system truly is stacked against the little guy. Under fair use rights, anyone can copy anything ... under certain conditions (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fair_use#U.S._fair_use_procedure_and_practice). Parody (that meets those conditions) has been established as a valid:

In Campbell v. Acuff-Rose Music Inc[13] the U.S. Supreme Court recognized parody as a potential fair use, even when done for profit.

However, because you have to go to court to find out whether your fair use claim is valid, and most people can't afford to defend such a claim, the reality of our legal system is that most people are effectively bullied out of their rights by corporations with legal teams.

So regardless of whether Space Station 13 usage was "fair use" ... Nintendo's lawyers would likely sue them into oblivion (unless someone like the EFF steps in).

[BiG SiP]

jokes are illegal in 2020

[imperiouskitten]

subscribe to pewdiepie *mows down the brown*

[heartbrand]

While this is true to an extent ... again, a company can't just sue a person (or another company, or any entity) without cause. I don't care if the Walmart corporation itself hates me with a fiery fiery passion, and deploys all their vast legal resources against me: they cannot bring me to court without cause. If they did, I wouldn't need a lawyer: the judge would throw the case out.

This place didn't operate for a decade without an agreement because Rogean is an idiot who wants to be sued. He has very deliberately drawn a legal line to keep himself safe, for instance by preventing any links to download Titanium here.

Obviously a link to the client would be very convenient ... but that would expose Rogean legally, because then he'd be (potentially) facilitating copyright infringement of IP owned by Daybreak.

Even making the motion to dismiss in federal court is something that would require an attorney and almost certainly be rejected. You make it sound like you just show up and go “lol I win k?”

[BiG SiP]

https://i.imgur.com/VfkFaBj.jpg

[Tunabros]

jokes are illegal in 2020

too many snowflakes in 2020

can't even make a fat people joke without getting "canceled"

[magnetaress]

congress x the senate is trying to piggy back push some heavy handed copywrite stuff thru on a budget with emergency relief monies and such that makes everything a federal crime including streaming everquest, unless someone vetos it, which neither will, so god bless if rogean doesn't go to jail after January

We really do need to put a stop to "Disney" aka nintendo etc (TM)(c) etc and the big banks and lawyer firms. They have stifled American re-ingenuity for long enough.

[Ennewi]

https://youtu.be/SeS7AUWZMOY

[Thulian]

can you sum up what he said i cant look and listen to this idiot

[douglas1999]

https://youtu.be/SeS7AUWZMOY

Is this guy in mastodon?

[Ennewi]

can you sum up what he said i cant look and listen to this idiot

Subscription model is 100% a viable option, just nowhere near as lucrative. If people didn't touch cash shops, companies would revert back to subs and/or find alternative methods. Quality content would then be the norm, since devs would be actively working to hold onto and increase subs. This isn't likely to happen any time soon because, well, people can't even sit through a short video.

[magnetaress]

loot boxes are $$$$ PHAT $$$$$$$ st5acks of free surgeries

[Nachtsuchen]

I imagine, considering it's not EQ that passed hands but the guys who own the guys who own it, nothing will change. That said, screw PGI and the bait-and-switch with what they did with MW5. Feels gross being under the same umbrella as EverQuest now as far as overall ownership. Yuck.

[Barik]

My dream would be as follows reskin the original EQ game with Unreal Engine, it’s pretty dam simple and I for sure would pay 15 dollars a month for that.

[sixoffive]

If the new company owns the IP they own the code and I am sure no user agreement from any IP owner of EQ allowed the end user to run their own EQ servers. The agreement between Daybreak and P99 didn't give P99 any rights but only allowed it to continue at the will of Daybreak. The new company has every legal right to prevent anyone from running their own eq server using any of the original game code. They could easily make the argument that emulated servers hurt them financially due to allowing people to play their game without needing to pay them to do so even if the people running the emulated servers don't make profit (spend all donations purely to run the server and not pay anyone).
I'd monitor the news and hopefully the company won't shut it down.