Game Mechanics: 1 grouping Klandicar [Archive]

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Funnybone1999

09-27-2020, 02:09 PM

I am from blue and I have overheard red99 is currently charming Captain Kromzek and 1 grouping a First Brood Dragon. Apparently they are Dictating Captain Kromzek giving him torches and buffs then sending him in on Klandicar and dictating him again when he needs heals end of fight. Captain doesn't get feared or anything so very easy fight. Is this something that is legal to do on blue as well? I would think that p99 would not want to see a first brood dying to a group or less. I know you can not charm Captain Kromzek on live currently.

Berryman

09-30-2020, 12:11 AM

Blue has a player agreement for scout https://wiki.project1999.com/Scout_Charisa/Player_Agreement according to them it is illegal. So if you ever find him up alone and uncontested, it is legal. Even if you win the roll it shouldn't be safe since the turn in is mentioned at the agreement. So if you change the player agreement then it should be legal.

elwing

09-30-2020, 01:35 AM

Finding captain and klandicar up and not ar scout roll, is, let's say, improbable...

Raije1000

09-30-2020, 04:58 AM

Back when Velious first came out Klandicar dropped CoF, i remember being 14 in 2000 when velious came out and i found out mobs would assist me in Western Wastes if i was on their shared faction. Sont would attack ice burrowers attacking me, and as long as i dealt 1 dmg i could loot. So i found out sont would kill Klandicar, so fires of heaven was prepping to kill Klandicar and i trained him into Sont, landed a stinging swarm (druid) and looted a CoF and Old Brood Talisman which is still on that char now. It was hot fixed a week later to where other factions wouldnt assist. Its something ill never forget, that shit kept me out of Fires of Heaven, lol rip

Dolalin

09-30-2020, 06:27 AM

ylarik24

10-07-2020, 08:05 AM

I think its more they rooted the dragons to try to make it classic due to players not pulling mobs to the entrance. Why would it be classic to 1 group klandicar with a dictated mob?

White_knight

10-07-2020, 08:14 AM

7thGate

10-07-2020, 10:39 AM

Yes, this is legal. Its only viable on Red or maybe a quake because that's the only time you're going to find scout up.

It is legal because the giants will fight the dragon on their own, there's no exploit involved in making them fight. I had an ongoing project a few years back to try and kill Sontalak this way using the group of scout giants, as those are available on every scout spawn and pull ~1200 dps as a group once buffed. Galach showed up to watch on one of the attempts, and I talked to Llandris at the time with an outline of the plan to make sure we weren't violating any precedents.

Its surprisingly difficult to get 8 giants buffed, equipped and dropped on target inside the 15 minute despawn time without getting any into summoning range or any enchanters dying. The plan kind of fell apart once it became clear that any AOE damage would cause the giants to chain summon Sontalak off the tank when they're done being feared, making it impossible to sustain tanking for them.

I'm surprised the captain is fear immune actually, all the research I've been able to do implied the level limit was baked into the fear spells directly (unlike 55+ stun immunity, which is hardcoded into the engine) and that dragon fear doesn't have a limit. I haven't been able to test with him for obvious reasons though since I'm on blue.

ylarik24

10-25-2020, 01:34 AM

Bump Captain is full immune to spells can not even dispell him but you can dictate him.

Baugi

10-28-2020, 05:18 PM

Bump Captain is full immune to spells can not even dispell him but you can dictate him.

Please be more careful that the information you contribute to the bug forum is correct. As pointed out in the sticky, staff wastes a lot of time on poorly researched and incorrect information.

Captain isn't immune to anything. He's highly resistant to cold and magic.

[Fri Feb 28 21:28:35 2020] A Kromzek Captain is consumed by the flames of the sun. (fire)
[Sun Sep 13 14:35:10 2020] A Kromzek Captain has been poisoned. (poison)
[Wed Sep 30 16:20:30 2020] A Kromzek Captain's skin freezes. (cold)
[Sun Sep 13 14:34:41 2020] A Kromzek Captain's skin erupts in purulent pock marks. (disease)
[Tue Mar 10 02:24:27 2020] A Kromzek Captain feels dispelled. (unresistable)
And dictate lands as already mentioned. (magic)

As far as I can find, this is consistent with live since there are Luclin era posts that reference difficulty but success slowing him with tash (possible they meant disease slowed but they did mention tash, might be worth testing dictate or theft of thought on a live server), e.g.

https://everquest.allakhazam.com/db/npc.html?id=7055&p=1#m102630463086872

Interestingly, using the giants from the quest to kill WW dragons was done in-era. They had to add a respawn timer to the quest (or fix some other issue?) because people were spawning multiple waves to throw at Sontalak.

People were spawning more and more Giants and training them on Sontalak....

https://web.archive.org/web/20021107140639/http://everquest.allakhazam.com/db/quest.html?quest=1255&start=75

Seems like confirmed classic to me.

ylarik24

10-30-2020, 10:32 AM

Thanks for the link
RE: Typical Reply... By: syldane, Scholar
103 posts
Posted @ Tue, May 8th 12:35 PM 2001 Score: Good[3.50]
Yeah, I'm sure you've read by now what the exploit was: spawning the giants so they could train dragons to them, or the giants to the dragons for the purpose of getting cheap dragon kills.

Personally, in the cases of these exploits I think they should put a line of text to the player when they turn in an item, that to use this in a way other than to do the quest is a bannable exploit. You catch someone doing it, they cannot say they didn't know, they are banned or at least suspended for a month. Keep an eye on the area for a while, ban a few people and word would get around not to do it. I'd rather them do it this way than nerf a good quest for the rest of us.

BTW, you might could do this giant with a small group by using snare and run tactics like we've used on the Garadain's Rings quests. You have a group of giants with one named in the middle, snare or root the named one, the rest chase you madly away, leaving the named alone. the rest take him down fairly easily while you entertain the rest. Zone when the named is down, come back to loot. All too easy, unless the named is highly MR.

Beatnix

10-30-2020, 11:15 AM

Please be more careful that the information you contribute to the bug forum is correct. As pointed out in the sticky, staff wastes a lot of time on poorly researched and incorrect information.

Captain isn't immune to anything. He's highly resistant to cold and magic.

[Fri Feb 28 21:28:35 2020] A Kromzek Captain is consumed by the flames of the sun. (fire)
[Sun Sep 13 14:35:10 2020] A Kromzek Captain has been poisoned. (poison)
[Wed Sep 30 16:20:30 2020] A Kromzek Captain's skin freezes. (cold)
[Sun Sep 13 14:34:41 2020] A Kromzek Captain's skin erupts in purulent pock marks. (disease)
[Tue Mar 10 02:24:27 2020] A Kromzek Captain feels dispelled. (unresistable)
And dictate lands as already mentioned. (magic)

As far as I can find, this is consistent with live since there are Luclin era posts that reference difficulty but success slowing him with tash (possible they meant disease slowed but they did mention tash, might be worth testing dictate or theft of thought on a live server), e.g.

https://everquest.allakhazam.com/db/npc.html?id=7055&p=1#m102630463086872

Interestingly, using the giants from the quest to kill WW dragons was done in-era. They had to add a respawn timer to the quest (or fix some other issue?) because people were spawning multiple waves to throw at Sontalak.

https://web.archive.org/web/20021107140639/http://everquest.allakhazam.com/db/quest.html?quest=1255&start=75

Seems like confirmed classic to me.

People spawning more and more giants is not the same as landing charm on Captain. He is not charmable on live. I have yet to find any evidence that shows he was ever charmable.

Baugi

10-30-2020, 01:40 PM

He is not charmable on live.

You've tested this?

ylarik24

10-30-2020, 03:38 PM

Yes we have tested it. Also it looks like they considered training the giants on to dragons a exploit .

Baugi

10-31-2020, 04:02 AM

Yes we have tested it

you're going to need to provide some kind of evidence if you want something changed

Also it looks like they considered training the giants on to dragons a exploit .

Who? SOE only ever changed the quest so you couldn't spawn multiple giant waves.

ylarik24

10-31-2020, 04:52 PM

bump

Tune

11-30-2020, 12:22 PM

Giants need to have factions completely removed and scowl to every1

Captain needs to be made uncharmable

This is redic

Nexii

12-04-2020, 11:25 AM

The issue on Red is that Captain is protected by non-raid PnP (as a small group quest NPC) but being used for raid purposes (to kill Klandicar with 1-2 groups). While Klandicar is up Captain should be considered a raid mob.

I would say that since Nilbog made NPC merchants uncharmable, then for consistency quest NPCs shouldn't be charmable. Slixin Klex comes to mind. If an enchanter charms it how can you ever compete that step of the Mage epic?

Tigerstyle Wutangfist

12-04-2020, 02:39 PM

There are very few places in EQ, outside of guards, where NPC fight one another. In many of these cases, that process can be "used" in a manner which undermines the spirit of play.

That behavior should be considered and unintended mechanic, or exploit.

Just make these giants not attack COV.

This is consistent with Wakening Lands. Giants in WL do not fight Wuoshi or Rolandal, and vice versa.

Zipity

12-04-2020, 06:01 PM

Haha yea the scout giants not even the captain will kill around 3-4 +6 neck dragons if you train them over there on scout roll, I’ve gotten lucky once or twice and they all die except a 6 neck at very low hp.

You can also charm something and give it like a sword of Skyfire(rain spell) and when it procs just ghazugi ring and the second wave will create a faction war. It should all be disabled.

nilbog

12-11-2020, 01:31 PM

He is not charmable on live.

Can you provide evidence/research for this?

Tune

12-17-2020, 01:32 PM

https://imgur.com/a/RRBAsEB

captain immune to dictate

https://imgur.com/a/RRBAsEB

Elven_Wine_Abuse

12-17-2020, 04:37 PM

That screenshot's era / information doesn't look terribly classic.

Heywood

12-17-2020, 04:49 PM

https://imgur.com/a/RRBAsEB

captain immune to dictate

https://imgur.com/a/RRBAsEB

sorry, but we're gonna credible evidence. This is clearly a screenshot of you in one of the emu servers. Stop trying to fraud the GMs.

Nexii

12-17-2020, 10:47 PM

sorry, but we're gonna credible evidence. This is clearly a screenshot of you in one of the emu servers. Stop trying to fraud the GMs.

It's a screenshot from live EQ as requested by Nilbog

Baugi

12-17-2020, 11:40 PM

Can you provide evidence/research for this?

My research suggests that Captain was most likely flagged charm immune by the 08/13/2019 patch which made Velious "rare" mobs immune to charm because people were holding them hostage and trying to sell loot rights. I can't find any indication that the flag is era-appropriate for p99.

https://forums.daybreakgames.com/eq/index.php?threads/test-update-08-13-2019-patch-notes-and-discussions.259101

- Made 1,052 NPCs immune to charm. These are "rare" NPCs and those with very long respawn times.

All rares in modern content are set to be non charmable. There is no reason not to apply those standards to the entire game.

Baugi

12-18-2020, 12:23 AM

Some more notes on charm immunity flags for reference https://www.project1999.com/forums/showthread.php?t=101232

If a Kromzek Captain was flagged charm immune(magic immune) in era, he should have had a slow immune flag during Luclin and there's good evidence that he did not - https://web.archive.org/web/20030214164144/https://eqdiary.tripod.com/quests/velious_slow.htm

Beatnix

12-18-2020, 08:36 AM

Being immune to charm or immune to magic are two different things. There were mobs flagged as uncharmable in classic as pointed out in the merchants immune to charm thread that you commented on Baugi.

https://www.project1999.com/forums/showthread.php?t=357217&page=3

Also, why would it be flagged slow immune when a shaman disease could slow it in Luclin? What would disease slow have to do with charm? Irrelevant.

Baugi

12-18-2020, 11:40 AM

Being immune to charm or immune to magic are two different things.

Potentially, but the point I was trying to make was that, prior to the 2001/10/08 patch, they typically prevented charm/slow/snare of high level encounter mobs by making them effectively magic immune through extremely high magic resistance. Post patch, those mobs had their magic resistance lowered and specific charm/slow/snare immunity flags added. Captain remained highly magic resistant post patch and we know that they never added a slow immunity flag. It seems highly unlikely that they added a charm immunity flag but not a slow immunity flag. More likely is that he was simply always meant to be highly magic resistant. Here's the relevant patch note since linking that whole thread seems to have caused some confusion -

The level-based spell resistance bonus inherent in super-high level NPCs has been reduced significantly.
Several NPCs have had their resistances reduced. Each of them was examined carefully, and resistances changed as seemed appropriate. For some of these NPCs other things were changed as well to compensate for their increased susceptibility to spells, such as armor improvements or perhaps greater hit points, if needed for that NPC.
NPCs that were highly magic resistant in order to make them immune to certain spells can now be given specific immunity to those spells. This means that they can be made immune to critical spells, as intended, and still be generally less resistant to magic. Players will receive a message similar to the one that is already given for Mesmerization spells when they cast a spell on an NPC that it is specifically immune to.

IMPORTANT NOTE: It is very important to note that we have not made any NPCs immune to spells that they were not already immune to. Many NPCs that were previously immune to spells due to their high innate resistance to magic have had that resistance reduced and specific immunities added. So if you see an immunity message after attempting to cast a spell on an NPC that you hadn't seen such a message from before, understand that the NPC was already immune to that spell before due to high resistances, and the only difference is that it now has lower resistances in general and specific spell immunity (which is why you are seeing the message).

There were mobs flagged as uncharmable in classic as pointed out in the merchants immune to charm thread that you commented on Baugi.

I don't recall claiming otherwise. That thread also includes the patch notes from August 21, 2019 (https://forums.daybreakgames.com/eq/index.php?threads/game-update-notes-august-21-2019.259201/), indicating that Captain would've been made charm immune in 2019 if he wasn't already. Yet, you came here and claimed that he shouldn't be charmable on P99 since he isn't charmable on live. Seems like a convenient omission?

Frankly, I'm a little disturbed by <Apex> openly trying to deceive the developers in this thread for their own in-game benefit. So far you've claimed -
1. You're from blue
(But you think using Scout to kill Klandicar is feasible there)

2. Red is one-grouping Klandicar
(No one has one grouped Klandicar. The charm strategy requires roughly 12 people to reasonably pull off; putting it on par with small-man Zlandicar. <Apex> has repeatedly wiped uncontested using this strategy with 20+)

3. "Captain is full immune to spells can not even dispell him but you can dictate him."
(He's not immune to spells and he can be dispelled, including the dictate)

4. "They[SOE] considered training the giants on to dragons a exploit ."
(They didn't)

5. "quest NPCs shouldn't be charmable"
(This would be unclassic and bizarre)

6. "There are very few places in EQ, outside of guards, where NPC fight one another."
(There are a plethora of other examples in Velious - ring quests, EW mobs, Lodizal, ect. More importantly, there's in-era evidence that Captain is supposed to attack dragons)

Lying to our developers because you're worried about another guild competing with you for ST keys is a special kind of scummy.

Beatnix

12-18-2020, 12:30 PM

Patch notes from 2019 do not indicate what mobs were flagged uncharmable. Your post even shows you don't know if that is true. Your "most likely" verbiage confirms you can not verify the validity of your statement. You also make the comment, "indicating that Captain would've been made charm immune in 2019 if he wasn't already." IF HE WASNT ALREADY? Seriously? All of that is just your assumption.

"Many NPCs that were previously immune to spells due to their high innate resistance to magic have had that resistance reduced and specific immunities added." So Captain is extremely magic resistant. Are you making it easier for Nilbog to see this mob should not be charmable? Also, to look into immunity messages that may be missing.

I did play blue for about two years but I am not the original poster here.

Apex has killed Klandicar with 9 people, could have been even fewer but we had people ready to defend if necessary. The wipes we had were from pvp during the encounter. When you nerds don't show up it is a very very easy fight. You just stand back and watch it happen, charm and heal captain, and catch the final blow. This trivializes the encounter.

SOE changed the encounter so that you could not repeatedly spawn the giants by changing scout to only accept scout tools once in a session. It was found that people were spawning giants multiple times and training them onto Sontalak. Nothing was said about charm at that time.

I never said quest NPCs could not be charmable. Only that captain is not charmable on live and that I can't find any evidence that shows he was ever charmable.

6. I don't know who or where that is being pulled from. In-era evidence that Captain is supposed to attack dragons? Sure man, I am commenting about charm and nothing else. If there is someone making another claim then go reply to them.

I have not lied about anything. Perdition talking about scum... what happened to <The Heretic>? Oh yeah, you guys lied to the GMS and were eventually disbanded for being unruly in a public forum about your suspension. Perdition lies about what guilds are allied with them so they can train mobs on Apex and avoid raid suspensions. Now that's scummy.

Lets keep it on topic though shall we?

Baugi

12-18-2020, 01:55 PM

Patch notes from 2019 do not indicate what mobs were flagged uncharmable.

Any mob with a significant respawn time was flagged uncharmable (e.g. an ancient Jarsath - 8hr). Obviously, Captain/Scout fall into this category.

https://forums.daybreakgames.com/eq/index.php?threads/holding-rare-mobs-hostage-with-charm.258818/

Your post even shows you don't know if that is true. Your "most likely" verbiage confirms you can not verify the validity of your statement. You also make the comment, "indicating that Captain would've been made charm immune in 2019 if he wasn't already." IF HE WASNT ALREADY? Seriously? All of that is just your assumption.

You're trying to get a longstanding mechanic changed. It follows that you have a burden of proof to show he was charm immune in 2001, but your only evidence is from 2020. Your implicit assumption is that he wasn't changed any time in between. I'm offering the, I think, more believable explanation that he was changed with everything else in 2019.

"Many NPCs that were previously immune to spells due to their high innate resistance to magic have had that resistance reduced and specific immunities added." So Captain is extremely magic resistant. Are you making it easier for Nilbog to see this mob should not be charmable? Also, to look into immunity messages that may be missing.

Spells with a -1000 resist check land on "extremely magic resistant" mobs by design.

Apex has killed Klandicar with 9 people, could have been even fewer but we had people ready to defend if necessary. The wipes we had were from pvp during the encounter. When you nerds don't show up it is a very very easy fight. You just stand back and watch it happen, charm and heal captain, and catch the final blow. This trivializes the encounter.

Your own guildmates claim the smallest you've secured the kill with uncontested is 11. I've personally watched you wipe uncontested with 20+... several times.

I don't know who or where that is being pulled from.

Direct quotes from your guildmates in a 3-page thread. Feel free to find them yourself.

you guys lied to the GMS and were eventually disbanded

You understand then that your guild's dishonesty here is very serious and wildly inappropriate?

Perdition lies about what guilds are allied with them so they can train mobs on Apex and avoid raid suspensions. Now that's scummy.

We accidentally body aggroed a single Frosticube during Dain PVP which transferred to another sitting player... your guild tried to convince a GM to ban all of us even though we offered you a concession. He declined for obvious reasons. We never denied that the player who aggroed the Frosticube was part of our raid force.

Lets keep it on topic though shall we?

Sure? You're the one throwing out wild unrelated accusations. My comments have all been relevant to this thread.

Elven_Wine_Abuse

12-18-2020, 03:00 PM

Did you know 2 out of 3 faction leaders can have Frosticubes show up to assist? Those trivial mobs, they'll getcha!

Tigerstyle Wutangfist

01-11-2021, 12:30 PM

Bump for Nilbog, requested information was provided.

Does not seem in spirit of play that this can be killed so easily utilizing a quest mob(s).

Gustoo

01-11-2021, 12:39 PM