NPC Push

[LazyHydras]

Hi! In a patch dated September 29th, 2019, Haynar writes: NPC's will be less susceptible to interrupt by combat/spell push (Credit work by Torven).

But, as you are probably aware, NPC aren't just "less susceptible" to interrupt by combat/spell push, but, for all practical intents and purposes, completely immune. To the point where even the Chetari Wardstaff's Knockback effect doesn't interrupt spells.


Is this something that you plan to correct in the future? I understand that push probably was "overpowered" in how reliable it was to move mobs a little bit in order to interrupt them (to the point where a single monk could interrupt a mob), but, as it stands, you can push a mob halfway across a room and it will not be interrupted except, maybe, by the slight chance that every melee hit has to interrupt a spell-cast.

[LazyHydras]

Shameless bump almost 3 months later. Any word from the devs? We've all kind of come to accept this as the status quo, but, I'm wondering if it was intended to make it impossible to interrupt an NPC no matter how far you push it.

[Sunderfury]

I'm no dev, but from old in era log files knockback effects from spells and even out of era monk knockback disc knocking mobs across the room did not interrupt casting.

[Tigerstyle Wutangfist]

I think this is more about generic push than "knockback effects from spells and even out of era monk knockback disc knocking mobs across the room".

30+ players can push a mob via melee alone all the way across the Kael arena and it will channel a 10 sec CH.

However - bash and slam if they land seem to be very high % to interrupt.

What was described as "less susceptible" is actually complete immunity to push. The server(s) now rely entirely on either "burn during cast" or "enc drain".

[Croco]

I'm no dev, but from old in era log files knockback effects from spells and even out of era monk knockback disc knocking mobs across the room did not interrupt casting.

Sorry bruh but this is completely wrong. Having played an epic monk in era up through prophecy of ro just our epic fist spam push was good enough to interrupt a fair amount of the time. The knockback disc improved that by a great amount. Push as it exists right now on p99 is nowhere near classic.

[LazyHydras]

I think this is more about generic push than "knockback effects from spells and even out of era monk knockback disc knocking mobs across the room".

30+ players can push a mob via melee alone all the way across the Kael arena and it will channel a 10 sec CH.

However - bash and slam if they land seem to be very high % to interrupt.

What was described as "less susceptible" is actually complete immunity to push. The server(s) now rely entirely on either "burn during cast" or "enc drain".


yea, that's my main point. It seems like the change to push was in response to epic'd monks being able to solo chain-interrupt a mob indefinitely. If that was the reason, and the change wasn't intended to remove the push-to-interrupt-NPCs mechanic altogether, they overtuned it and made it 100% impossible to interrupt by push. On the flip side, a non-caster player gets hit once by a mob and can't channel item clickies. lol

[elwing]

Bash and slam have 0chance to interrupt cast on stun immune mob, despite what the patch text said, you can have 20 people bash and it just channel through fine, just like the push. Bash only interrupt mob you can stun in practice

[Tigerstyle Wutangfist]

In era a single player with haste could potentially interrupt a mob. Maybe not reliably but it happened. If the mob was stun immune it was less likely (as now all stubs are irrelevant).


Now however a “decrease in chance” has become “no chance”. 30 hasted players can push a mob as far as possible and it will channel. The only method to prevent ch and gate is kill speed, or drain on a mob who is immune to stun/mezz.


This implies that no amount of directional push should ever stop a mobs cast. Is this correct? It seems like it should of been decreased, not removed entirely.


A good example is arena or pohate 2.0. Disciples in hate can be hit with stunning blow and enchanter stuns multiple times (no resist message or immune message) and still CH. so they are immune, and no amount of raw hits/push can stop them. Interestingly slam/bash sometimes causes an immediate interrupt.


Pushing a mob with a few hasted players a reasonable distance should have an chance for interrupt.

[Croco]

Unfortunately for everyone on the server a situation of "People didn't regularly do this in era even though it was possible" has become synonymous with "We don't want people doing this because it's our opinion regardless of whether it's classic or not" to the devs. They will change anything they want without any conversation or evidence at all but if the player base thinks something isn't classic and want's it changed you better have in era proof, blood samples, and a couple sworn affidavits from former eq devs. Then maybe they'll think about it.

[LazyHydras]

Unfortunately for everyone on the server a situation of "People didn't regularly do this in era even though it was possible" has become synonymous with "We don't want people doing this because it's our opinion regardless of whether it's classic or not" to the devs. They will change anything they want without any conversation or evidence at all but if the player base thinks something isn't classic and want's it changed you better have in era proof, blood samples, and a couple sworn affidavits from former eq devs. Then maybe they'll think about it.

Yea I think it was said somewhere, at some point, by Rog/Bog that they are recreating the "Classic experience" and not necessarily the game exactly as it was on classic. Even if that means removing or hampering features or mechanics or tactics that existed in classic, but weren't widely known or used.

You have to expect, though, that with 20 years of knowledge under our belts, we aren't going to play this game exactly as it was played in the year 1999. . . expecting that we will, or changing the game mechanics to force that, seems pretty silly, imo. But, hey, it's not my experiment.

[Fammaden]

Might want to be careful what you wish for, if the change here involves a fix for channeling. I've seen it proposed before that channeling just works too well on P99, if they were to nerf it for both PC's and NPC's then charm reliability would take a massive hit as well as some other aspects like your healers being more susceptible to interrupt.

Not sure anyone has evidence for it anyway though.

[Dolalin]

Channeling is very probably overpowered on p99, I'm still gathering proof on that.

[Tigerstyle Wutangfist]

6-18 players in places like hate, kael arena OR 4-6 player groups in places like seb, cdok should not be cripplingly reliant upon mana drain to prevent what often results in full wipes; short of killing every mob on its bind.

In classic not every group had an a stun, and not every group fighting stun immune mobs had an enc to drain to completely oom. There should be at least some reasonable possibility to interrupt mobs gating to emulate a classic experience.

[LazyHydras]

6-18 players in places like hate, kael arena OR 4-6 player groups in places like seb, cdok should not be cripplingly reliant upon mana drain to prevent what often results in full wipes; short of killing every mob on its bind.

In classic not every group had an a stun, and not every group fighting stun immune mobs had an enc to drain to completely oom. There should be at least some reasonable possibility to interrupt mobs gating to emulate a classic experience.

I hear that a Thunderkick chain will interrupt mobs.

https://i.imgur.com/ogCn0qY.gif

[LazyHydras]

Bump. I think we deserve some kind of dev comment here - this bug is well over a year old, now. . .

Is this "Working as intended" despite not being classic?

[Detoxx]

When they changed this was there any proof even posted or did they just say "Hey TAKP did it so it must be right"? Cause Ive never seen proof of this and on top of that I remember vividly pushing mobs to interrupt them on live.

This shouldnt even be a question but for some reason Haynar implemented it on TAKP so now it has to be here.

[Detoxx]

Heres a few posts with evidence push did exist. One is from our own EQEmulator forums. There were no patch notes or changes to push that can be found anywhere.

https://www.graffes.com/forums/showthread.php?5076-Spells-with-Knockback-Stun-or-Interrupt(ToV-gaters)&p=115886#post115886

There are spells with knockback, if you have Xuzl, he also has a pretty good knockback effect. The problem you will have is you (singly) can't move it enough to prevent gating.

You're better off getting your guild to work on positioning, and mana draining, Main Tank in front of mob, all others behind pushing it round the room. Chanters, and high lvl bards suck the mana out to stop the mob gating.

Wizzies should concentrate on nuking in ToV.

Depending on what it is Telekin (ok not yet there but anyway) might do the trick, but guild push tanking should be the main interrupt, and manadraining would be nice, in a longhish fight a bard can eazely drain all its mana while twisting all his other songs.

Practice youll get better P )

The most effective way to stop gater is still melee pushing. Just have to get your melees face the target on the same side to push it. Xuzl type pet (mage elementals, cleric hammers, etc.) also works very well.

https://www.oocities.org/xymarra/Strategy/EnchanterStrategy.html

Mana sieve is most important when fighting healers. If a dragon casts Complete Heal on itself during a battle, that battle is most likely lost. Stuns will not interrupt casters over level 55 or giants of any level, so mana deprivation is our only really viable technique. Some creatures can be pushed around by the melée fighters, causing all spells to be interrupted, but sieve can be more reliable. Mana stealing spells generate very little aggro, so you should be able to start stealing mana early in the fight without being slain instantly.

Heres one from the very Emulator we use"
http://www.eqemulator.org/forums/showthread.php?t=40405

That's the logic there. Note that "Mob" inherits all things. Meaning, disabling melee push here would result in *nothing* being pushed, PCs, pets, NPCs, *everything*.

This would mean, short of actual stuns or bash attacks, nobody will ever get interrupted while casting (movement is the sole cause of interrupting PCs/NPCs beyond genuine stuns). You could therefore situationally disable melee push for just NPCs or just PCs or whatever.

Disabling melee push on NPCs will make the game harder (with melee push, you have a shot at causing melee push to interrupt that NPC's Complete Heal cast. Without, all NPC spells guaranteed will succeed without a genuine stun/bash effect). You can do this by setting the rule MeleePushChance to 0, per the above code.

Disabling melee push on PCs will make the game easier (same reason, impossible to be interrupted now unless something genuinely stuns you with spell or bash). You would set the rule MeleePush to false to disable melee push wholesale for everything.

If nothing, this all proves that melee push should at least have a chance to interrupt. Here it has 0 chance. This is not right and easily proven by 10 minutes and a google search.

[Zipity]

These posts imply that bard mana drain should also be unresistable in line with the enchanter line to help drain raid targets. Would make sense and be nice.

[Izmael]

Wait a second, are we really arguing whether or not pushing an NPC used to interrupt its casting back on live?

Everyone who played EQ back on live knew that and witnessed it first hand. I'm not even sure why this is being discussed. "Walking" caster raid mobs around by having everyone push from behind and the tank directing it was done by all or most guilds to prevent CH's, gates and such. Pure melee mobs were often pinned by having the tank in a corner where possible.

[Vaarsuvius]

Channeling is very probably overpowered on p99, I'm still gathering proof on that.
I beg to differ. Caster mobs' channeling is unbeatable,. As several people have already pointed, try and interrupt a Protector of Zek of any Adjudant in Kael from CHing himself... but I could not count how many times I've been interrupted on a caster / priest with maxed Channeling even by mobs than con green and are 15-20 levels below mine

[Arvan]

I'm no dev, but from old in era log files knockback effects from spells and even out of era monk knockback disc knocking mobs across the room did not interrupt casting.

Log tells you nothing about if it works or not though. Mob could have been in a corner and didn't move at all.

[Croco]

This is also 100% wrong, monk knockback ability (wasn't a disc) that eventually gets introduced absolutely did interrupt casting.

I remember being overjoyed when I got this skill as I had another tool outside of just push spam to use to interrupt mobs that CH'd.

[Jimjam]

I can confirm that there is a small chance to successfully interrupt NPCs on hit.

I succeeded in doing this on a level 30 warrior using a single magic 2hs hit and a kick against Trazdon in Najena.

Methinks the chance to interrupt on hit may be a little too low if it took this many months for me to observe it :S

[LazyHydras]

I can confirm that there is a small chance to successfully interrupt NPCs on hit.

I succeeded in doing this on a level 30 warrior using a single magic 2hs hit and a kick against Trazdon in Najena.

Methinks the chance to interrupt on hit may be a little too low if it took this many months for me to observe it :S

Yep! There is and has always been a small chance to interrupt an NPC via a melee attack regardless of whether or not the NPC moves - but it is a very small chance, hardly reliable or replicable. Interrupting a mob via push (moving it spatially across unit tiles) is now impossible.



My whole point is that the developers overshot the mark. Instead of making NPCs "less susceptible" to push, they have made them literally immune to spell interrupt via push.

[LazyHydras]

Galach kindly moved my post to the correct sub-forum. Sorry about that - was in the wrong forum this whole time! Hopefully a dev can take a look at this and make the necessary fix.

[Stonewallx39]

Adding melee push back into the game would be a substantial improvement, both for quality of life and to align with classic mechanics. It adds an element of teamwork to get all the members of a raiding party or group to work together to interrupt casting and by the Velious era melee push was certainly known and a tactic often in use.

[LazyHydras]

Yea, I'd really like some kind of acknowledgment just that this is being looked at and will be fixed in a soon-to-come patch. Would add some kind of peace of mind.

[Layne]

It is a little off that a player can't even move and start a spell immediately after they stop moving w/o getting interrupted. Yet you can move an NPC across a zone and it still regains concentration...

[kaev]

It is a little off that a player can't even move and start a spell immediately after they stop moving w/o getting interrupted.

This bit was true on live also. If you turn in place a little immediately after you stop moving (takes like 0.1sec if you using mouse to turn), or tap your sit/stand key twice, it will make the server notice you are stopped and avoid the interrupt.

[LazyHydras]

Heres a few posts with evidence push did exist. One is from our own EQEmulator forums. There were no patch notes or changes to push that can be found anywhere.

https://www.graffes.com/forums/showthread.php?5076-Spells-with-Knockback-Stun-or-Interrupt(ToV-gaters)&p=115886#post115886







https://www.oocities.org/xymarra/Strategy/EnchanterStrategy.html



Heres one from the very Emulator we use"
http://www.eqemulator.org/forums/showthread.php?t=40405



If nothing, this all proves that melee push should at least have a chance to interrupt. Here it has 0 chance. This is not right and easily proven by 10 minutes and a google search.

Thank you for your hard work and research, Detoxx. Much appreciated; and I hope that the developers take this under advisement and revert the baseless "fix."

[malkavviaa]

Bump

[LazyHydras]

bumpity bump.

[Dolalin]

Okay so now that I have the eq-archives fully indexed, I thought run some searches about this.

eqforge from 2001:

Call of Sky

Imbues any weapon you use with a chance to proc a 35 direct damage hit and a 1 foot push back. The push back can interrupt spell casting. Velious obtained

http://web.archive.org/web/20010215025303/www.eqforge.com/ranger/spells/spell_five.htm


Allakhazam post from 2001 about vox:

Posted @ Sun, Sep 9th 11:43 AM 2001

You can interrupt Vox by pushing her a great deal in a single direction. Channeling checks work in that the server takes a loc of where you are when you start, and finish casting a spell. If you are outside a certain range for your channeling skill, you are interrupted. This goes for Vox too. You cannot Bash, or Stun her.

Oh and there aren't any limits on dragon combat. But you would die instantly anywhere below level 40, and be a mana sink under level 46 with good resists.

Praetor, 60th Crusader
Avatars of Discord

http://web.archive.org/web/20030512150101/http://everquest.allakhazam.com/db/classes.html?class=6&mid=99990747325339


More alla posts from early 2002:

RE: The only downside... Reply... By: NarayenGenocide the Wise,
Posted @ Sat, Apr 27th 7:54 AM 2002 Score: Decent[2.65]

No, you cannot interrupt ANY monster that is lvl57+ no matter if you can land stuns on them or not. The only way to break casting on 57+ mobs is with melee/nuke push or casting a high level mezz spell (if they are within the 57-60 range).

-----------------------
Narayen Annihilation
60 Cleric and blatent homosexual. Of veeshan... Phallus phallus phallus phallus phallus phallus phallus
phallus. GIMMY LOVE, HOT MAN LOVE.

---

RE: The only downside... Reply... By: Kandozo,
Posted @ Tue, May 14th 6:25 PM 2002

The effect on the Tranquil Staff (Fist of One Hundred Blows I believe it is called) is also able to stun 55+ creatures just fine. I've seen our guildleader whip out his TStaff and stun the ancient guardian wurms in Halls of Testing in ToV to preven the things from gating.

Give a man a fish, and he'll eat for a day. Teach a man to fish, and he'll never come to work again

---

RE: The only downside... Reply... By: RyuOki,
Posted @ Sat, Apr 27th 6:34 PM 2002

dont forget pushing. all melee on one side moving a mob in the same direction will prevent gating (a very important tactic on some of the more annoying caster mobs)

http://www.magelo.com/eq_view_profile.html?num=276039 dragul d'corpses
http://www.magelo.com/eq_view_profile.html?num=257999 coladiel cerulean


http://web.archive.org/web/20021029184602/everquest.allakhazam.com/db/item.html?item=11739


So I think there was certainly a perception that pushing mobs could help interrupt casting (also maybe sorta interesting with the Tstaff thing in HoT).

But was it real?

I know TAKP has actual logs and tests of this stuff, I presume that's where the change came from. You have to defer to hard data if you have it I think.

[LazyHydras]

It could very well be a coincidence, Dolalin, in the sense that there IS a very small chance to interrupt mobs via melee attacks (regardless of whether the mob moves spatially) - and this is what the players are referring to when they talk about melee pushing on one side to prevent a successful NPC spell cast.

I am highly dubious of that, though. I think anyone who plays a melee character can attest to how infinitesimally low that chance is to interrupt NPC spells via melee. Perhaps that chance is supposed to be higher? If push interrupt SEEMED as reliable as it did in Classic, maybe it was a function of the chance to interrupt NPCs via melee hit variable being much higher than it is here?

I don't know. It would be nice to get some developer input on this thread, though. God knows we have provided enough evidence on our end . . .it would be nice to see or hear what evidence was used to support this change.

[Croco]

It could very well be a coincidence, Dolalin, in the sense that there IS a very small chance to interrupt mobs via melee attacks (regardless of whether the mob moves spatially) - and this is what the players are referring to when they talk about melee pushing on one side to prevent a successful NPC spell cast.

I am highly dubious of that, though. I think anyone who plays a melee character can attest to how infinitesimally low that chance is to interrupt NPC spells via melee. Perhaps that chance is supposed to be higher? If push interrupt SEEMED as reliable as it did in Classic, maybe it was a function of the chance to interrupt NPCs via melee hit variable being much higher than it is here?

I don't know. It would be nice to get some developer input on this thread, though. God knows we have provided enough evidence on our end . . .it would be nice to see or hear what evidence was used to support this change.

As a monk in era this was not my experience. Once I got my epic I could pretty reliably interrupt caster mobs with melee push from using just my 16 delay fists.

[LazyHydras]

Yea, this is what is staggering me on this one. It was changed -- with credit from TAKP devs, apparently -- despite an overwhelming amount of anecdotal evidence both from players on P99 community as well as posts from Allakhazam and other Classic sources that push was a reliable mechanic.

This leads me to believe that they must have SOME kind of dataset that would contradict that. But how does that jive with people like Croco and others testifying that they were able to, in era, easily interrupt caster mobs with epic fists alone?

What kind of data (if any) did they collect on TAKP? Is that even relevant here in this era? What is the metric? How was the metric measured? There are just so many questions left unanswered for an issue that is going to be 2 years old soon and was controversial from the very start.

[LazyHydras]

...please?

[Tigerstyle Wutangfist]

also bump - there are alot of old and valid, with a lot of research, bug reports being overlooked

[LazyHydras]

Any word?

[Pringles]

:D.
From Torven
"Our channeling code was very old stock EQEmu code pulled out of the air and was inaccurate. NPCs play by different rules. (old Rashere comments verify this) I went on Live just to see how it's done there and I could not interrupt a level 12 NPC wielding a combine dagger + efreeti standard after 30 minutes of melee and 330 casts. Of course they aren't pushed there, but the hits themselves trigger rolls. That NPC regained concentration 100% and most hits didn't trigger a channeling roll at all. I also tried casting push spells which prevented nothing.

AK logs were used as my primary source as you would expect however. Interrupts were possible but rare and extremely rare at high levels. Some examples:

level 73 ranger NPC
Emmerik Skyfury begins to cast a spell. (150)
Emmerik Skyfury regains concentration and continues casting. (18; 12%)
Emmerik Skyfury's casting is interrupted! (1; 0.6%)

level 70
Cazic Thule begins to cast a spell. (269)
Cazic Thule regains concentration and continues casting. (45; 16.7%)
Cazic Thule's casting is interrupted! (12; 4.5%)

level 67
Auliffe Chaoswind regains concentration and continues casting. (36; 23.3%)
Auliffe Chaoswind's casting is interrupted! (no sign of stun) (2; 1.3%)

level 66
Praesertum Matpa begins to cast a spell. (53)
Praesertum Matpa regains concentration and continues casting. (15; 28%)
(no interrupts)

NPC stun immunity is actually somewhat rare. If you find stun immune NPCs that look like they shouldn't be, you should probably bring those to my attention. I fixed some erroneously flagged NPCs in vexthal yesterday.

Bash can still interrupt stun immune NPCs, btw.

PC channeling is now using code found in a client decompile, so the accuracy on that is rather high. In fact it indicates that the channeling focus AA is so good that it leaves me wondering, but it's such strong evidence that I can't ignore it."

"Regarding NPC cast interrupts and push/displacement: The lull thread in general forum has some of the data I collected on this. TLDR of it is that I found zero evidence for it and plenty against it. A Sony dev stated that NPCs do not use channeling skill. The vast majority of NPC casts never show a 'regained concentration' or interrupt message and simply cast through melee. Dragon punch (3 unit push ability) never interrupting NPCs + monks complaining about no interrupt (dual wield class). NPCs on raids successfully casting all of their CH spells and logs just plain showing NPCs getting spells off through hordes of melee-- particularly stun immune level 66+ raid NPCs with success rates upwards of 99%. Lots of mana draining on ToV raids in these logs.

It makes little sense to me anyway for raid NPCs to not get spells off simply because your enchanters and SKs make pets, your wizards chain cast level 12 DDs, and paladins face the same wall. Some raid boss spells have cast times, and it would trivialize the fight to shut them off. If pushing then only worked on non-raid mobs, then what sense does it make for them to have coded some push threshold of like 4+ units before any sort of check is done? PCs have a location check for casts to prevent them from being bards; NPC AI can simply be coded to stop so they never needed location checking in the first place."

The problem with trying to do internet archeology, at this point, is that some people have figured out how to decompile old clients and get actual data to work with, rather than relying on humanity's hyperbolic memory.

You can find most of the reasoning for this change here: https://www.takproject.net/forums/index.php?threads/lull-changes.12968/
https://www.takproject.net/forums/index.php?threads/11-14-2018.12991/

[Detoxx]

Bump

Not only is there substantial evidence here to prove that mobs should be able to be pushed for interrupts but one of the games most basic and archaic mechanics proves this as well:

Enrage.

Currently, in VP mobs will never enrage. They will either gate or die. Why would they add a mechanic to mobs to never be used? This has to be the most common sense / damning evidence in favor or putting back in the push mechanic.

[Detoxx]

Also, lets not forget the Alkabor was a broken server and a completely different game with different mechanics. It was for Apple and it wasnt just a simple copy of Windows version of EQ.

They couldnt even figure out how to fix Quarm on their server and it literlaly never died. Using Alkabor as any sort of reference for a classic server is not only shortsighted but plain stupid.

[LazyHydras]

Bump.

[Detoxx]

Bump for an inordinate amount of proof posted by me:

https://www.project1999.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3249051&postcount=17

Should be well enough to overturn this and considering the basis for nerfing this is from a client that was entirely redone for macs it seems like push should be in this game.

[LazyHydras]

Galach kindly moved my post to the correct sub-forum. Sorry about that - was in the wrong forum this whole time! Hopefully a dev can take a look at this and make the necessary fix.

That was over a year ago, lol. Hope springs eternal, I guess.

[Detoxx]

Bump

Not only is there substantial evidence here to prove that mobs should be able to be pushed for interrupts but one of the games most basic and archaic mechanics proves this as well:

Enrage.

Currently, in VP mobs will never enrage. They will either gate or die. Why would they add a mechanic to mobs to never be used? This has to be the most common sense / damning evidence in favor or putting back in the push mechanic.

[titanshub]

bump

[Danth]

You guys might be sailing on the wrong tack. I was under the impression that the complete elimination of push-interrupt (which, to be sure, was much too strong/reliable in its former implementation) had nothing to do with classic. I thought it was either a judgment call or merely the best they could do within the current knowledge/ability of the present devs. In either of those cases, posting evidence of what is already known will not have any effect.

Certainly doesn't hurt to keep the thread bumped, though, if for no other reason than so they know the community cares about the issue since we have no other mechanic for weighting glitches.

Danth

[Detoxx]

Bump since I see Nilbog posting in a different thread. If this just isn't going to be changed and remain not classic and update of this stance would do.

Thanks

[LazyHydras]

bump

[Detoxx]

Bump for clear and convincing evidence that only matters when they want it to.

[Detoxx]

hi

[eisley]

The 'toxx is right. This and Channelling (and rooted dragons and recharging lmao) are the two most egregious non-classic mechanics in the game. At the very least, just SAY you're leaving it this way for game balance reasons. It's not like we don't have plenty of those already.

[azxten]

I respect this slow rolling of major proven changes. When I'm 80 years old they'll finally add the channeling fixes and I can enjoy P99 all over again. If they just changed things I'd probably already be bored again.

[Detoxx]

bumppppppp

[LazyHydras]

bumperino.

[LazyHydras]

Hi again.

[Croco]

Don't you guys understand? The people that run and fix the server will always make it more classic over time. Unless that is they just don't like a certain aspect of classic then they'll take it out no questions asked and there's nothing you can do about it.

[LazyHydras]

Any explanation for why no comment or revert to this?

[LazyHydras]

Hi, it's me again.

[LazyHydras]

Send help

[SantagarBrax]

Bump for garlic's sake

[unroot]

why does this get ignored?

[Croco]

why does this get ignored?

Because only we are held to the standard of having to produce proof to get things changed. The Devs can make anything non-classic if they want for any garbage reason and we can't do a damn thing.

[Dolalin]

My opinion on Push as of June 2002, apparently (been doing some ezboard searches for fun):


Myth #1: Push doesn't do jack. It's the 40 people hitting the mob that interrupts its casting. I've seen mobs backed into corners, and still get interrupted just as often as mobs who are pushed.

For that matter, Sarthis was duoing in the arena in Kael with a knockback stave last year, knocked an adjudant clear across the arena and back, and it still got CH off.

Dolalin Bonewielder
Warlock of The Shadow Order
Lanys T`Vyl


https://web.archive.org/web/20020716144226/http://pub110.ezboard.com/feqasylumgeneral.showMessage?index=2&topicID=12014.topic

[Infectious]

My opinion on Push as of June 2002, apparently (been doing some ezboard searches for fun):



https://web.archive.org/web/20020716144226/http://pub110.ezboard.com/feqasylumgeneral.showMessage?index=2&topicID=12014.topic

Aren't giants unstunnable? So the effect shouldn't have even landed to begin with?

[Dolalin]

Aren't giants unstunnable? So the effect shouldn't have even landed to begin with?

Pretty sure it was a Chetari Wardstaff, that's just a plain knockback.

[Croco]

Pretty sure it was a Chetari Wardstaff, that's just a plain knockback.

If he pushed it back to it's original spot or near it would've made it easier for it to channel that CH. Sounds like a plausible explanation considering the wording of "clear across the arena and back".

[Dolalin]

I remember this actually, he pushed that mob around and around, I really doubt he managed to get it back to the same place it started from.

[Croco]

I remember this actually, he pushed that mob around and around, I really doubt he managed to get it back to the same place it started from.

Thankfully there are endless posts like this one:

vox strategy (https://www.tapatalk.com/groups/monklybusiness43508/generic-dragon-raid-strategy-t664-s10.html#p19941)

Where they explain pretty clearly that you could push npc's to reliably interrupt their spells.

Or any of these:

https://everquest.allakhazam.com/db/item.html?item=725#m100477796944456

https://web.archive.org/web/20011030073049/https://www.angelfire.com/games2/eqfornewbies/strats/magician.htm
"With its short attack delay, this happens pretty often. This makes it great for attacking spellcasting mobs, as this can interrupt the spell."

https://members.tripod.com/ms_9ball/kedge.html
"A piranha as a pet is a lethal weapon, and can easily distract and interrupt the Golden Haired Mermaid as she attempts to cast spells."

These are just some that I could find from a short search in era. I found a ton more from out of era in 2002 and 2003. Which makes a lot of sense as by that time people had learned more about the game and the 'why's' of certain things happening like spell interrupts.

[Rygar]

Literally ignoring all the vox posts about push not working, piranha ledge comment is laughable. Where does it mention push to interrupt? Could simply be it bashes or absorbs the spell damage for you since its taunting.

Plenty of folks talking about needing to bash phinny guards to interrupt.

Keep dreaming of push to interrupt npc fantasies tho

[Croco]

Literally ignoring all the vox posts about push not working, piranha ledge comment is laughable. Where does it mention push to interrupt? Could simply be it bashes or absorbs the spell damage for you since its taunting.

Plenty of folks talking about needing to bash phinny guards to interrupt.

Keep dreaming of push to interrupt npc fantasies tho

They aren't dreams, they're memories of playing on live in era on a monk that would regularly interrupt casters with my dual fists after I got the monk epic.

It was a tactic that was so well known and commonplace that they literally gave monks a knockback AA ability in Luclin that we used to reliably interrupt casters.

Gleaning useful information from peoples comments on EQ back in '99-'02 is incredibly difficult because as you've helpfully pointed out people made comments back then with sometimes little more than guesses about how things worked. The comments from people who clearly detail how something worked and having that comment corroborated by multiple people over multiple years are the comments that deserve to be considered truth above others.

There are dozens of examples of people understanding how pushing npc's was used to interrupt spells from '99 into the mid '00s and beyond. Most people didn't think or understand it being a thing because they didn't play a melee class that attacked fast enough to generate the requisite push.

[Rygar]

Show the many posts of the monk community talking of the epic interrupt ability then. Or was this class changing mechanic just kept quiet from everyone for fear of a nerf?

Literally 2 dual wield melee attacking would generate more speed than an epic monk, surely there are thousands of "duh bro just push mobs to interrupt gate what is your problem?"

[Croco]

Show the many posts of the monk community talking of the epic interrupt ability then. Or was this class changing mechanic just kept quiet from everyone for fear of a nerf?

Literally 2 dual wield melee attacking would generate more speed than an epic monk, surely there are thousands of "duh bro just push mobs to interrupt gate what is your problem?"

It's super easy to look at it in hindsight and say something like that. Oh obviously if this was super common people would've documented it literally EVERYWHERE. But people had no clue at all that posts on EQ message boards, and guild forums, and on random allah pages would be taken has 'The Word of God' handed down on high for all of us to base free servers on where everything would be scrutinized to the nanometer.

I found those examples with my limited knowledge and ability to search old EQ stuff in about 30 minutes. I'm sure other people who have access to non-public databases or who know way more research tricks than me could find dozens more examples, maybe even a hundred such examples depending how wide a net you want to cast.

[unroot]

croco making good points with evidence

people arguing vs him with memory hole strawmans

can we put this bed yet staff

[Rygar]

He didn't post reliable evidence, just claims of memory evidence. On the other hand in my other thread I have actual links to evidence of people saying pushing around mobs does jack shit. Never mind the thousands of parsed hours of logs from EQmac.

[Detoxx]

https://i.imgur.com/nMbzgLT.png

Bumping to try and figure out why, even though several posts and plenty of evidence shows this change was incorrect, it still is not being changed back.

[Rygar]

Those posts literally say mana sieve as well. As a melee, if you push a bunch of mobs while sieving you may clearly think your movement stopped them when in fact the sieve did.

Emu talking about disabling push issues is laughable, clearly talking about challenges of relating a mechanic to certain types of characters.

As is also said, no patch notes relating to push to interrupt. Go on current live and push a mob around, lemme know how that interrupts.

Clear case of cherry picking evidence in hope of relieving butt hurt. Mad confirmed.

[long.liam]

There are tons of changes that Verant & Sony put into the game via patches that did not end up in patch notes. They left stuff out of patch notes literally all the time.

Here's a link from a player back in the day that was keeping track himself of changes to various spells and if you go and cross reference those changes with patch notes you find plenty of them not listed in the corresponding patch notes from when they were put in game.

(re: https://web.archive.org/web/20020205012307/http://www.taylir.com/spdatch.shtml)

That's just from Aug/01 to Jan/02 and there are a number of examples just from changed spells. To say nothing of quests, mechanics, abilities... etc. Just because there are no patch notes saying something changed does not mean it didn't change. There are too many examples to the contrary.

The Official Everquest Patch notes and code dumps from the EQ devs are the most reliable source of information for how the game actually worked. The only source that comes close to that is In era Vidoes and Verified Log files. Everything else is just anecdote that is subject to a heavy dose of skepticism. Unless whatever anecdote you post is backed up by credible sources, I'd say it can be mostly ignored and filed away as a speculative curiosity. It's quite possible that the EQ devs did "ninja" patches during the timeline, but without actual reliable evidence we have no way of Knowing what they did. Defaulting to current live mechanics in most cases is usually best in the absence of reliable data.

[Detoxx]

The Official Everquest Patch notes and code dumps from the EQ devs are the most reliable source of information for how the game actually worked. The only source that comes close to that is In era Vidoes and Verified Log files. Everything else is just anecdote that is subject to a heavy dose of skepticism. Unless whatever anecdote you post is backed up by credible sources, I'd say it can be mostly ignored and filed away as a speculative curiosity. It's quite possible that the EQ devs did "ninja" patches during the timeline, but without actual reliable evidence we have no way of Knowing what they did. Defaulting to current live mechanics in most cases is usually best in the absence of reliable data.

Yet they changed DN spiders to summon based on one post from Allakhazam 20 years ago. No logs, no Video, no Patch notes. That is cherry picking.

Mobs were able to be pushed. I could find plenty more evidence but the evidence above by me and others is enough. And again, the evidence they used to take away push was based on a completely different coded source. Alkabor had to be recoded from the bottom up to get it on macs.

There are other reasons they wont change it.

[Ennewi]

Yet they changed DN spiders to summon based on one post from Allakhazam 20 years ago. No logs, no Video, no Patch notes. That is cherry picking.


A change which came with the condition that it would be reverted if more evidence was provided to the contrary. That change was however shown to be classic.


https://web.archive.org/web/20010805002023/http://pub44.ezboard.com/feverquestersofnorrathfrm20.showMessage?topicID=36 4.topic

Vlieke
Registered User
Posts: 49
(7/9/01 4:44:28 pm)

Raids
Very soon we will start raiding higher level dungeons, etc. How exciting! Thought it might be worthwhile to share some info I found on posts regarding the topic. By no means am I trying to lay out rules here, simply trying to keep the topic in the forefront because soon it will be a big part of what we do.

Here are some rules for raids, if you are not the leader:

1. Show up, on time, prepared (equipment, maps, resist gear, potions, gems for symbols, fish scales, coffins, etc)).
2. Join the group you are assigned.
3. Be helpful: Buff others (but ask them first).
4. Follow instructions.
5. DO NOT EXPLORE or wander. Stay with the group or in your assigned place.
6. Before raid starts, determine the following and make hotkeys:
- primary assist hotkey
- secondary assist hotkey
- "add" assist hotkey
- special raid hotkeys ("Assist Locz on %t", "Snared %t", "Peeling %t", "Parking %t, back off!", "Incoming %t", "%t has been slowed", "Kiting %t", etc).
- determine the raid-only channel for instructions
- determine the "chat" channel
- name of loot leader
- name of enchanter giving haste
- name of enchanter giving clarity
- name of persons giving focus / DMF / aegiolism / etc
7. get buffed in the proper buff order (junk and lesser buffs first)
8. LISTEN to instructions.
19. FOLLOW instructions.
10. Don't harass the raid leader / puller / peeler / assist people with tells. They are too busy.
11. Don't whine about experience. The purpose of a raid is not experience (thats a "grind" group). Groups are specifically arranged to maximize kill effectiveness, not for divvying up experience evenly.
12. Don't loot unless told to.
13. When fighting:
- follow instructions.
- always assist. Never attack unless you assist. (take personal initiative only when assists have died and announce to others your action using a hotkey / you are told otherwise / dire circumstances require it).
- don't sit just before the pull (MOB may aggro you).
- turn off auto-attack if the MOB enrages. (enrage = autoriposte)
- usually best to keep the chanter's alive (it is OK to emergency heal them)
- learn to "push" caster/healer MOBs so that their casting gets interrupted. This means all tanks but rogues fight on the same side and vector, pushing the MOB backwards, and switch sides as told by the main assist. This technique also makes the raid rogues far more effective.
- avoid aggroing secondary MOBs into the fight.
- only the raid leader calls for "clerics camp" if a wipeout seems possible.
- announce specifically important events: key LDs, key deaths, MOB AE cast times, snare in, emergency heal needs (if your clerics are dead).
- casters only nuke within aggro radius, and after the tanks have secured aggro, to avoid "ping ponging"
- don't push the MOB through a wall, or off a bridge, etc.
14. Group leaders announce mana level /preparedness after the fight.
15. NEVER, EVER, train the camp. Die instead.

Hope this summarizes well.
-----------------------------------------------------------

Ok, Vlieke here again. I hope that info was helpful and thought-provoking. As you can see, some groups take a rather militaristic approach to raids, I suppose with good reason. I don't think such a hard-ass approach is inherently necessary, but GOOD ORGANIZATION and PREPARATION is. I would think that pre-raid briefs will be necessary, as well as post-raid debriefs. Sure, they might be boring, but they are a great tool for learning and refining.

For the most part, we've all been either soloing or fighting in smaller (6 or less) guild groups for the duration of our characters' existence(s). Fairly soon this will change, and I have no doubt it will be enjoyable for VF, and our guild will begin to prosper and solidify even more.

Please share your thoughts here. I know Raloth, the High Council and other Officers and members of the guild are interested in getting our raid thang going.

P.S.S. If we need raid leaders, I humbly volunteer.

V.V.


https://web.archive.org/web/20020318094203/http://pub14.ezboard.com/fthesteelwarriorthearena.showPrevMessage?topicID=9 38.topic

Rotep of Lanys
Steel Warrior Contributor
Posts: 23
(12/16/01 7:47:45 am)
Reply
Community Supporter
mob pushing-what is it?
I never heard of this term before. What does it mean to "push a mob"?
Haldainas
knows that Warriors are Superior
Posts: 30
(12/16/01 8:49:48 am)
Reply Re: mob pushing-what is it?
Some high level mobs cannot be interupted by normal stuns and such, giants in kael are a good example. So to imterpt the complete heals, everyone gets on one side of the mob and "pushes" it. As you hit it, it will move back some and most of the time interupt casting, This also works on ToV mobs and other high level encounters.
Haldainas Eviencar

Aeril Droigheann
is a Seasoned Veteran
Posts: 262
(12/17/01 12:56:59 pm)
Reply Re: mob pushing-what is it?
The biggest importance is just positioning. A lot of AE fights have walls that you can hide the casters behind to prevent them from being hit by it. In these situations, it's important to keep the mob from moving beyond the corner so it's AE doesn't hit the casters. If you don't have enough damage to make up for CH/gate then you probably won't have enough to push reliably for an interrupt.
Aeryl Firebrand, Warlord
Aeril Droigheann, 59 Preserver, Semi-Retired
Aerul Cuinnsear, 48 Rogue, Semi-Retired
Undaunted, Xegony

Crayno
knows that Warriors are Superior
Posts: 80
(12/18/01 7:05:19 am)
Reply Re: mob pushing-what is it?
Tried some mob pushing in Kael yesterday,didn't interrupt a single spell :(
May the wolves guide your path
Crayno Wolffang 59 Myrmidon
May your beard grow long and your ale be cold
Braydoc Lifespark 53 Vicar

Solos Stormreaper
knows that Warriors are Superior
Posts: 11
(12/18/01 6:16:46 pm)
Reply
Re: mob pushing-what is it?
Regular melee damage pushes. If you notice when you get hit by a mob, it pushes you back. This happens to a mob as well, I think based on how much damage you do. I'm guessing it's based off of damage, since I noticed monks can do a lot of pushing with their melee.

What I like to do is flank. Surround the mob. This keeps the mob from moving around so much. Here's a sample diagram:


P
|
M
/ \
P P


In this above diagram, the mob should move towards the meleer doing the least damage, according to my theory. If players are doing the same melee damage, then the mob shouldn't be moving at all, since all the pushing is getting countered.


P
\
P - M - P
/
P


In this above diagram, the mob should definitely be moving towards the right. Though, the amount it's being pushed per second would most likely be the same, if all players are doing equal damage, in this diagram below:


P
> M
P



I also have rarely interupted a giant in Kael from casting a heal. It's not good pushing it into a wall, despite popular belief... I play a shaman and druid and usually run to a corner to gate away from a train and know that the wall will help me channel through the hits. Been able to escape some trains while pulling old Chardok this way.

Quote:
The best way i heard to stop a CH is to mana suck them or whatever the PC term is now


Mana sieve or drain it's mana.
___________________________________
Darin Darkstar - Level 60 Barbarian Warlord
Drackoz Darkstar - Level 60 Barbarian Oracle
Solos Stormreaper - Level 58 Halfling Preserver
- Innoruuk Server
Without Knowledge, Skill cannot be focused. Without Skill, Strength cannot be brought to bear. Without Strength, Knowledge may not be applied.

Turom Toesmasher
knows that Warriors are Superior
Posts: 68
(12/20/01 8:44:17 am)
Reply
Re: mob pushing-what is it?
To push a mob effectively, you really need to stack on the main tank. The main tank needs to steer the mob, by facing the direction you want the mob pushed.

It's important for everyone to understand stacking though, as their will be times that you need to switch sides to push the mob another way.

Pushing definately does interrupt spells... a long time ago, I recall doing Vox... we had 2 chanters, one died almost instantly. Having only one chanter left usually means death with Vox, but we were able to stack and push her around enough to prevent CHs. Ended up taking her down with 21 because of the good pushing.
Frrroooaaakkk!


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NitaNita
knows that Warriors are superior
Posts: 76
(7/16/02 4:34:58 pm)
Reply
ezSupporter

Re: Western Wastes Dragons
Some of the dragons are deceptively nasty. Mav Sapara, Von, Mraaka, Glati, probably the rest of the Saparas as well.

This is a great place to practice strategies and tactics you'll use in lategame raiding, such as main tanking, pushing gaters, resisting AEs, and the like.

Amanita

Trayvar
knows that Warriors are superior
Posts: 2
(7/17/02 7:05:46 am)
Reply Re: Western Wastes Dragons
"pushing gaters"

While this works very well for unstunnable mobs mid-game, I really wouldn't suggest it as a great strategy for late-game/end-game mobs. Enchanter sieving works far better, since mobs at that high of a level have such a high channeling skill that they will just regain consentration and continue their casting 99% of the time.

Kael arena, it's been a mixed bag. They regain about 50% of the time from my experiences there. ToV, forget about it. A successful push there has resulted in:

An Ancient Frost Guardian regains consentration and continues it's casting...
An Ancient Frost Guardian gates.

every time I've ever seen it tried.

Enchanters sieving their mana away is the only sure fire method that I've seen work for preventing gaters, other than fighting close enough to their spawn location that is.

End game mobs are even worse than ToV mobs.

It's a good strategy, and will serve you well for a while... but don't expect to ever see it work late and end game.

It's not a strategy to be "practiced" now "for" late/end game, it's a strategy to be "used" now "until" late/end game comes.

Keryath
knows that Warriors are superior
Posts: 36
(8/7/02 12:43:11 pm)
Reply Re: Western Wastes Dragons
Gflux dragons aren't bad. Everyone needs an instant click effect item, be it jboots, gobo earring, or whatnot. first buff slot need to be the instant click, then the rest of your buffs, and lev/DMF near the bottom. Refresh your instant click whenever it gets dispelled.

As far as pushing gaters, if you push the far enough I've never seen them channel. There are many mobs you do not want to sieve, due to the fact that they're chumps as long as they try to keep casting.

Be very careful in regards to the mobs you grab, and don't have too much faith in those WW guides. Things have changed recently with regards to the sleeper revamps.

Anyhow, what the other guys said, stay the hell away from anything with more than one name; they'll rock you harder than front row tickets at a White Lion concert.

[Ennewi]

https://web.archive.org/web/20010728222442/http://pub13.ezboard.com/fbrellserilisplanesraids.showMessage?topicID=1323. topic

Barrin Soulburner
some newbie
Posts: 359
(2/4/01 1:42:43 am)

Re: Question about Vox Stunning
If all the tanks face the front of Vox and push her backwards, that will interrupt CH most of the time (if you have enough tanks beating on her). Most reliable way to prevent CH is mana sieve. Magic based spells have a 0.001% chance of hitting (/wave stun) and bash will not interrupt like it would a normal mob.
Barrin Soulburner
Watchers


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Woland Grauensturm
Registered User
(6/15/02 2:51:58 pm)
Reply
ezSupporter
Re: Ridiculous amounts of gating

Two days in a row now did we have to abort our planned Telkorenar kill due to several wipeout from gating mobs. I have never seen anything like this. Not even when we started doing west ToV some 9 months ago was it this bad. We don't have any bards since we're evil team on Vallon but we do push etc, everything by the book. It seems that pushing a mob half across the zone doesn't have the slightest impact anymore.

I just can't believe that 10+ gating mobs on two raids is a coincidence. I'm positive something has changed here.

[long.liam]

Yet they changed DN spiders to summon based on one post from Allakhazam 20 years ago. No logs, no Video, no Patch notes. That is cherry picking.

Mobs were able to be pushed. I could find plenty more evidence but the evidence above by me and others is enough. And again, the evidence they used to take away push was based on a completely different coded source. Alkabor had to be recoded from the bottom up to get it on macs.

There are other reasons they wont change it.

What the P99 dev's will do vs what is actually a good way to establish what the truth is, are two completely different things. I acknowledge that the P99 developers have made some design choices that I don't understand and in some cases I don't agree with, but in either case it's not my server, so I have no control of what happens.

[long.liam]

https://web.archive.org/web/20010728222442/http://pub13.ezboard.com/fbrellserilisplanesraids.showMessage?topicID=1323. topic




https://web.archive.org/web/20020619220608/http://pub175.ezboard.com/fthesafehouseloungegeneraldiscussion.showMessage?t opicID=24121.topic&index=4

I'm not trying be rude, but perhaps instead of spamming the bug forums with boat loads of anecdotal information, you should instead try to find official patch notes or eq developer posts that back up your claims. Even verified unedited log files would be better than spamming random stories from the deep web. The plural of anecdote is not data. Just, because you have found a bunch of random people stating they saw such and such thing, does not make it true. There a tons of people that swear that they have seen ghosts, aliens, and other such things. That does not make those things real.

[Ennewi]

I'm not trying be rude, but perhaps instead of spamming the bug forums with boat loads of anecdotal information, you should instead try to find official patch notes or eq developer posts that back up your claims.

Firsthand accounts from various links have been cited on numerous occasions, by players and staff members alike, sometimes with those being the only source of information used. There simply aren't enough details in three years of patch notes or developer posts for both to be the only trusted sources.

Even verified unedited log files would be better than spamming random stories from the deep web.

The more good information is shown, the farther from imperfect it becomes. In the absence of what is ideal, there is what is available, Titanium client included.

The plural of anecdote is not data.

https://blog.revolutionanalytics.com/2011/04/the-plural-of-anecdote-is-data-after-all.html

April 06, 2011
The plural of anecdote is data, after all
I've used the quotation "The plural of anecdote is not data" in various talks over the years, never knowing the original source. I searched the usual places (though clearly not hard enough!), but never figured out whom it should be attributed to. So I was pleased to learn that John Myles White had discovered the source: Raymond Wolfinger (presumably the political scientist from Berkeley). This attribution comes in this 2004 email from Fred Shapiro, editor of the Yale Dictionary of Quotations:

I [Shapiro] e-mailed Wolfinger last year and got the following response from him:

"I said 'The plural of anecdote is data' some time in the 1969-70 academic year while teaching a graduate seminar at Stanford. The occasion was a student's dismissal of a simple factual statement -- by another student or me -- as a mere anecdote. The quotation was my rejoinder. Since then I have missed few opportunities to quote myself. The only appearance in print that I can remember is Nelson Polsby's accurate quotation and attribution in an article in PS: Political Science and Politics in 1993; I believe it was in the first issue of the year."

So I've been using the quotation wrong all this time! I think I'm going to stick with "The plural of anecdote is not data", though: the word "anecdote" to me suggests information surrendered, not collected, and it's the implication of reporting bias that makes the quote so apposite for statisticians.

Linguist List: Re: "Plural of anecdote is data" (Ray Wolfinger)

Just, because you have found a bunch of random people stating they saw such and such thing, does not make it true.

Circumstantial evidence is admissible in (elf) court.

All of that aside, instead of posting direct replies in these threads (https://project1999.com/forums/showthread.php?t=412816&page=2), just fire away a private message.

https://project1999.com/forums/showthread.php?t=19

Old 10-01-2011, 10:23 AM
nilbog nilbog is offline
Project Manager

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Join Date: Oct 2009
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With the new round of beta testing, this is highly relevant.

Please make sure to include all the information you can about an issue.

I'm wasting a lot of time reading posts with no research or links.

Thanks.

[Croco]

bump