Shamwowi's Shaman Race Guide

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Hello everyone!

I have finished constructing a more complete breakdown of the racial benefits of each Shaman race, which can be found here:

https://wiki.project1999.com/Shamwowi%27s_Shaman_Race_Guide

I still plan on updating it and refining it, but this first pass is basically complete. Let me know what you think. I am hoping this can act as a more definitive guide for new Shamans when selecting their race, so they do not need to navigate the many "Which Shaman race is best" threads that have come before.

[Baler]

I started a guide similar to this but scrapped it because I'm not qualified to share my "opinion" on what's "best". And neither are you.

Don't spread false information on the wiki. You're extremely bias in favor of ogres and your bias shines through on that wiki page. Which means you're not contributing general non-bias information.

I'm serious this isn't cool. I try to promote the wiki and you should feel bad that I dislike what you're doing. Spreading 1 sides bias information is dangerous. You've been hot on trying to force your opinion on people that ogre is the best shm race. You need to chill out with that and start exploring other races instead of shitting on them for not being ogre.

I'm literally disgusted you took it this far. I've never felt this sick in relation to the wiki.

[Skarne]

Translation: Get off my lawn you got damn millennial

[DeathsSilkyMist]

I started a guide similar to this but scrapped it because I'm not qualified to share my "opinion" on what's "best". And neither are you.

Don't spread false information on the wiki. You're extremely bias in favor of ogres and your bias shines through on that wiki page. Which means you're not contributing general non-bias information.

I'm serious this isn't cool. I try to promote the wiki and you should feel bad that I dislike what you're doing. Spreading 1 sides bias information is dangerous. You've been hot on trying to force your opinion on people that ogre is the best shm race. You need to chill out with that and start exploring other races instead of shitting on them for not being ogre.

I'm literally disgusted you took it this far. I've never felt this sick in relation to the wiki.

I am not spreading false information. I am showing the facts to help people along so we don't need to keep having this debate over and over. I would love to discuss something you disagree with. You keep claiming I am biased, but you haven't posted any counter evidence, other than the claim I am wrong. Maybe it is you who has been biased?

Also, I am not sure why you think I haven't playes other races. Trolls are my personal favorite race. My first level 50 toon on this server was a Troll Shadowknight. I also have a human Enchanter, and an iksar monk. Not really sure where you got this idea I exclusively play or prefer Ogres.

[whippetofspades]

Imagine being so incapable of accepting you made the wrong choice that you go and do this

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Imagine being so incapable of accepting you made the wrong choice that you go and do this

Yes, I spent hours compiling information and making videos to help other players. Race has no major affect on a Shaman, which I mention at the top of the guide. This is for players who want the straight facts on which racial benefits are the best, without relying on people making claims without evidence.

[Baler]

I am not spreading false information. I am showing the facts to help people along so we don't need to keep having this debate over and over. I would love to discuss something you disagree with. You keep claiming I am biased, but you haven't posted any counter evidence, other than the claim I am wrong. Maybe it is you who has been biased?

Also, I am not sure why you think I haven't playes other races. Trolls are my personal favorite race. My first level 50 toon on this server was a Troll Shadowknight. I also have a human Enchanter, and an iksar monk. Not really sure where you got this idea I exclusively play or prefer Ogres.

You are in fact spreading false information.

Post after Post you ignore what people say to you, including myself. Plowing forward with your Bias pro-ogre logic. Refusing to acknowledge other races.
I shouldn't need to explain to you how you're being blatantly bias with your misinformation guide.

---
Here is an example of your misinformation bias propaganda.
https://i.imgur.com/8YijuzN.png

Not sure why you refuse and refuse and refuse time after time to acknowledge anything I said to you in the SHM Math thread.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

You are in fact spreading false information.

Post after Post you ignore what people say to you, including myself. Plowing forward with your Bias por-ogre logic. Refusing to acknowledge other races.
I shouldn't need to explain to you how you're being blatantly bias with your misinformation guide.

Plenty of accusations here, but no arguments lol. Lets discuss something you disagree with, instead of just making baseless claims.

Just because you disagree with my findings, it doesnt make them false.

[Baler]

instead of just making basless claims.

Don't try and take the bigger man stance on this.
I've had a 20+ post conversation with you about shm race in another thread. And I did my best to be non-bias and even gave pro-ogre reasons.
You're so hard headed it's not even funny. You ignored everything I said and continued your misinformation spread.

And the only reason i'm hot is because you put that misinformation on the wiki. The one place that's supposed to reflect p99 as accurate as possible.

edit: it's like you exist in your own world where what you believe is fact.
Come back to reality.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Don't try and take the bigger man stance on this.

You're so hard headed it's not even funny.

And the only reason i'm hot is because you put that misinformation on the wiki. The one place that's supposed to reflect p99 as accurate as possible.

You claim it is misinformation, yet you provide no counter evidence. If you have a different race Shaman, make some videos proving me wrong, so we can have a discussion. Otherwise, you are making baseless claims. Just saying I am wrong doesn't make it so.

[Baler]

You claim it is misinformation, yet you provide no counter evidence. If you have a different race Shaman, make some videos proving me wrong, so we can have a discussion. Otherwise, you are making baseless claims. Just saying I am wrong doesn't make it so.

Just like you refuse to acknowledge that you're being bias.
You refuse to acknowledge what i'm trying to tell you.

Just do whatever you want. Ruin people's minds on shm race with your bias wiki page. you're a problem,.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Just like you refuse to acknowledge that you're being bias.
You refuse to acknowledge what i'm trying to tell you.

Just do whatever you want. Ruin people's minds on shm race. you're a problem,.

I am supposedly the biased one, yet you need to resort to insults and baseless claims? Maybe the bias is on your side:) I am just trying to help players, spending hours of my free time to do so.

[Baler]

I am supposedly the biased one, yet you need to resort to insults and baseless claims? Maybe the bias is on your side:) I am just trying to help players, spending hours of my free time to do so.

You don't even remember the 10 pages of conversation we had about the topic.
https://www.project1999.com/forums/misc.php?do=whoposted&t=361266

You've just plowed forward with bias posts and now a wiki page.
And again trying to take the bigger man stance. If you want to compare Epeen Hours Spent for free (https://wiki.project1999.com/Help:Contents#Contributions)

My last post on this thread. I don't want to be dragged down any further with this discussion.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

You don't even remember the 10 pages of conversation we had about the topic.
https://www.project1999.com/forums/misc.php?do=whoposted&t=361266

I remember them. You didn't post any evidence there either:) Not one single video.

[Ptull]

Thanks for taking the time to post the wiki. Interesting information. +1

[Skarne]

Yeah dude great guide, thanks.

[Maschenny]

Enjoyed reading the guide and surprisingly learned some stuff i didn't know. Thank you.

[greenspectre]

I read the entry from start-to-finish and am very fluent with the Troll v Ogre arguments, and I want to say thank you Shamwowi. I feel the page does due diligence to Trolls by applying the math of their additional regen benefits in the same situations you ran videos of with the Ogre, and explaining how those benefits would play out. You clearly put a lot of work into this guide, and I'm hoping it serves as a signpost for min/maxers interested in the shaman class.

Ultimately there will always be some amount of subjectivity when it comes to shamans picking race, but I think your guide was as unbiased as possible whenever possible. There are corner cases where literally any race would be at a disadvantage versus the one chosen, but your guide tries to quantify how often those situations are likely to come up.

At the end of the day, play what you want. I made a barb and don't regret my decision in the least. Travel is easy and seamless, I've been able to do some quests that my faction assisted me in, can sell in Grobb thanks to faction work and will be able to bank there once I'm not lazy anymore and get my guard faction up, and I enjoy the look of my character. Plus the newbie game in the Qeynos area was a first time for me, and it was completely the tits. I look sweet as fuck as I plate out my toon with Totemic and Rune Etched, and still being able to move around in places like Mistmoore and CT where I can't shrink was also nice QoL. But I'm not out to min/max- just enjoy playing a new class and i'll min/max when I make my monk in Kunark :)

[isoka]

Well, that s a lot of work put into this, but i must reckon it is very solo oriented. Regen shines in groups (where a shaman actually sits also) while stun immunity is very poor in this context.

I like how people tend to minimize troll and iksar regeneration while whatever the race, everyone goes fap fap when they get regeneration / chloroplast / regrowth, not to mention ceremonial iksar chestplate or fungi tunic.
The regen is an insane boost during the leveling life of a shaman, just admit it.

Once you hit 60 and put your hands on torpor, there is no real true winner. Any race will be overpowered and any race can solo what you have shown on your videos.

So the real deal is : will you group during your journey to 60? If yes, go barbarian if faction matters for you. Go iksar or troll otherwise for the regen which will shine when you do some canni dancing.
Nothing more exciting than leveling with a group of 5 melees while you do all the buffing and healing.

If you want to solo your way to 60, ogres can be interesting due to their ability to click jbb without getting many interrupts when root breaks.

Also, this poll speaks by itself. More % of ogres would reroll shaman than trolls would reroll ogres.

https://www.project1999.com/forums/showthread.php?t=222813&highlight=Poll+shaman+reroll

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Thanks for taking the time to post the wiki. Interesting information. +1

Thanks!

Yeah dude great guide, thanks.

Thanks!

Enjoyed reading the guide and surprisingly learned some stuff i didn't know. Thank you.

Thanks! Glad I could help.

I read the entry from start-to-finish and am very fluent with the Troll v Ogre arguments, and I want to say thank you Shamwowi. I feel the page does due diligence to Trolls by applying the math of their additional regen benefits in the same situations you ran videos of with the Ogre, and explaining how those benefits would play out. You clearly put a lot of work into this guide, and I'm hoping it serves as a signpost for min/maxers interested in the shaman class.

Ultimately there will always be some amount of subjectivity when it comes to shamans picking race, but I think your guide was as unbiased as possible whenever possible. There are corner cases where literally any race would be at a disadvantage versus the one chosen, but your guide tries to quantify how often those situations are likely to come up.

At the end of the day, play what you want. I made a barb and don't regret my decision in the least. Travel is easy and seamless, I've been able to do some quests that my faction assisted me in, can sell in Grobb thanks to faction work and will be able to bank there once I'm not lazy anymore and get my guard faction up, and I enjoy the look of my character. Plus the newbie game in the Qeynos area was a first time for me, and it was completely the tits. I look sweet as fuck as I plate out my toon with Totemic and Rune Etched, and still being able to move around in places like Mistmoore and CT where I can't shrink was also nice QoL. But I'm not out to min/max- just enjoy playing a new class and i'll min/max when I make my monk in Kunark :)

Thanks for that:) Completely agree here, this guide isn't for everyone. Some people prefer fashion, faster leveling, etc. I simply want people to have the information at hand for each racial, so they can make the best decision when rolling Shaman. Some people prefer Min/Maxing, which is mostly who this guide is aimed at.

Well, that s a lot of work put into this, but i must reckon it is very solo oriented. Regen shines in groups (where a shaman actually sits also) while stun immunity is very poor in this context.

I like how people tend to minimize troll and iksar regeneration while whatever the race, everyone goes fap fap when they get regeneration / chloroplast / regrowth, not to mention ceremonial iksar chestplate or fungi tunic.
The regen is an insane boost during the leveling life of a shaman, just admit it.

Once you hit 60 and put your hands on torpor, there is no real true winner. Any race will be overpowered and any race can solo what you have shown on your videos.

So the real deal is : will you group during your journey to 60? If yes, go barbarian if faction matters for you. Go iksar or troll otherwise for the regen which will shine when you do some canni dancing.
Nothing more exciting than leveling with a group of 5 melees while you do all the buffing and healing.

If you want to solo your way to 60, ogres can be interesting due to their ability to click jbb without getting many interrupts when root breaks.

Also, this poll speaks by itself. More % of ogres would reroll shaman than trolls would reroll ogres.

https://www.project1999.com/forums/showthread.php?t=222813&highlight=Poll+shaman+reroll

You should read the guide a bit more carefully.

I mentioned multiple times in the guide Troll/Iksar Regeneration is the best racial Pre-Torpor. I also mention that no racial is a game changer in the end. I never denied either of these things, and that is why a lot of people prefer Trolls. Much of the game is spent leveling to 60, so people want the best bonus during that time.

This guide is aimed at showing the racial benefits POST-TORPOR. This is because some people who like to Min/Max do not mind having a longer leveling process. They want to know which race is the best after their character is complete. Troll/Iksar Regeneration and Barbarian XP Bonuses become significantly less useful when you become a Torpor Shaman. This is why Ogre FSI ends up winning when your character is complete.

As a Torpor Shaman, I rarely use Regrowth and Fungi Tunic. Chestplate of Vindication has better overall damage mitigation, and Regrowth is often a waste of a buff slot. I still use it sometimes, but it is not a requirement in any fight.

I also disagree about FSI being less useful in group situations. I am often getting hit in duo/group situations. Slows generate a lot of agro, bad pulls happen, and off tanking can be necessary.

[Danth]

I also disagree about FSI being less useful in group situations. I am often getting hit in duo/group situations. Slows generate a lot of agro, bad pulls happen, and off tanking can be necessary.

This sounds like you group with some poor tanks. I'm not going to do what you might expect and pull the elitist "only group with quality players" card. I'm a fan of making do with what you have. Having to make less-than-stellar groups work is a valid enough reason to appreciate having the Ogre racial. Heck, there are entire classes (hello, Paladin) that are at their best as the rest of the group performs worse. That being said, it's hard to argue that bash resistance isn't vastly more situational for groupers than it is in solo situations. With a quality tank around a Shaman will only rarely be hit, or sometimes not at all during an entire gameplay session. The Ogre racial becomes worthless in such situations.

The correct argument, I think, is that racials are even less important to a grouping level 60 than they are for the soloist (and you already admit they're not a big deal for the soloist) so you might just as well min-max for the solo aspect of the class where it might offer some small bonus. I don't know that I'd agree with that argument in all cases, but it'd apply to enough players for the purpose of your guide with the caveat that individual players should always consider their own specific needs first and no guide can be all things to all people.

------------------------------------

My only notable critique of the guide itself is that the title could perhaps be altered to something like "Shamwowi's Shaman Race Guide for min-maxers" to better convey its purpose.

Danth

[DeathsSilkyMist]

First off, thank you for the post!

This sounds like you group with some poor tanks. I'm not going to do what you might expect and pull the elitist "only group with quality players" card. I'm a fan of making do with what you have. Having to make less-than-stellar groups work is a valid enough reason to appreciate having the Ogre racial. Heck, there are entire classes (hello, Paladin) that are at their best as the rest of the group performs worse.

Maybe I should clarify this a bit more, possibly in the guide as well. Even with a good tank, Torpor Shamans often take two responsibilities in groups: Slowing and Healing. From my experience, this puts me high on most mob's hate lists most of the time. Even with an experienced tank, it can be tough to keep up agro on multiple mobs when a Shaman needs to slow and heal. Doing 6+ Dragons is a great example here. I am usually on Rampage, even in a group of 6, due to slowing and healing. Torpor's range requires me to be in Rampage distance, so I am taking hits in the fight. I don't believe Bashes happen on rampage (I am usually not paying attention to that), so FSI probably doesn't apply to rampage hits. However, because I am second on the hate list, it isn't a large leap for the mob to occasionally turn to me, especially if I get a string of Slow resists and have to spam it. That is when FSI can still be useful. Also, I sometimes pull as a Shaman if there is no need to do crazy pulling shenanigans, because I am already going to be high on the hate list initially, when trying to land a slow.


That being said, it's hard to argue that bash resistance isn't vastly more situational for groupers than it is in solo situations. With a quality tank around a Shaman will only rarely be hit, or sometimes not at all during an entire gameplay session. The Ogre racial becomes worthless in such situations.


I 100% agree here. I hope my guide didn't come across as FSI being amazing in group or raid situations. I was simply trying to show all situations in which the racials can benefit you. This is because some people like to claim FSI is never used in group or raid situations. That is obviously false, even if it is used less often. I did the same thing with all the other racials, in an attempt to strong man each one.

Again, maybe I should clarify this a bit more, but all racials tend to become largely useless in group and raid situations, especially when the group or raid is doing well. This includes Troll/Iksar Regeneration. If you are in a group that is destroying stuff, you are Regenerating even less than in solo situations. You can see how marginal the gains are for Troll/Iksar Regeneration in the solo experiences in my guide. Even if you are spamming high cost spells non stop, you can see how much mana is spent in 13 minutes in my Raid buffing example. I don't think I have ever spent more mana than that in a 13 minute period grouping. You still only save roughly 30 seconds of self healing in the end, which is basically useless in a group or raid situation anyway.


The correct argument, I think, is that racials are even less important to a grouping level 60 than they are for the soloist (and you already admit they're not a big deal for the soloist) so you might just as well min-max for the solo aspect of the class where it might offer some small bonus. I don't know that I'd agree with that argument in all cases, but it'd apply to enough players for the purpose of your guide with the caveat that individual players should always consider their own specific needs first and no guide can be all things to all people.


I 100% agree here, and I can probably clarify that. And yes, no one guide is everything. I just know that all of these benefits can be quantified, and I haven't really seen anybody do that before. So hopefully my guide can provide clarity through real examples. Obviously EQ has a lot of situations, and you could always point to a very specific case and say x racial saved you there. But the idea of the "overall best race" is to determine which ability in general will give you the best bang for your buck, with the knowledge that sometimes other racials could have been better in very specific scenarios. It's simply an averages game.


My only notable critique of the guide itself is that the title could perhaps be altered to something like "Shamwowi's Shaman Race Guide for min-maxers" to better convey its purpose.


I was considering that at first. The only reason why I kept the title general is because I do include the other situations in my guide. If you prefer fashion quest, you can skip the guide, and I say that in the Preface. I already have a Pre-Torpor Shaman section, describing why Troll/Iksar Regeneration is best before you get Torpor. I simply didn't think a larger explanation was needed, due to the communities general agreement on this point. If people want, I can certainly break down the racial abilities in the Pre-Torpor situation in a similar manner to Post-Torpor.

Thanks for the feedback!

[Danth]

You don't need to add fashion links (I agree it's not necessary for the purpose of your article), but if you were so inclined you could add a listing of the different bear colors used by Form of the Great Bear. It's already on the page for the spell, granted, but putting answers for questions people frequently ask in a one-stop-shop article never hurts.


Danth

[DeathsSilkyMist]

You don't need to add fashion links (I agree it's not necessary for the purpose of your article), but if you were so inclined you could add a listing of the different bear colors used by Form of the Great Bear. It's already on the page for the spell, granted, but putting answers for questions people frequently ask in a one-stop-shop article never hurts.


Danth

Good idea! An FAQ style section like that would be a nice addition.

[Vaarsuvius]

Hi,

I read that thread with great care, read your guide and watched your videos. Thank you for all the hours you put into that hard work. No matter if we agree with you or not, no one can deny you love shamans

From my not even 54 iksar scum shaman's point of view there is one thing that I don't understand in your reasonning

On the one hand you rate iksars lower than the other (superior) races because they can't wear plate armor but on the other hand you don't give much credit to the innate AC bonus they get.

Who cares if you only can wear chain (happy with my chain fungi) and not plate (not sure Vindi's, SS, Kael, ToV BPs don't qualify as plate though) when you don't want to be hit in the first place?

In fact there's also another argument in favor of FSI that I don't buy

Unless your back pedaling, FSI won't do much to prevent you from being stunned if you need to flee, ymmv

Aside from that, thanks for your guide & videos ��

PS 100% iksar shaman here, and happy to be one. Tried and rerolled an innoruk troll shaman which I got to 20, got him a jbb that I eventually sold to a fellow ogre shaman, but I ended up reverting to my lizard, and I love it

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Hi,

I read that thread with great care, read your guide and watched your videos. Thank you for all the hours you put into that hard work. No matter if we agree with you or not, no one can deny you love shamans

From my not even 54 iksar scum shaman's point of view there is one thing that I don't understand in your reasonning

On the one hand you rate iksars lower than the other (superior) races because they can't wear plate armor but on the other hand you don't give much credit to the innate AC bonus they get.

Who cares if you only can wear chain (happy with my chain fungi) and not plate (not sure Vindi's, SS, Kael, ToV BPs don't qualify as plate though) when you don't want to be hit in the first place?

In fact there's also another argument in favor of FSI that I don't buy

Unless your back pedaling, FSI won't do much to prevent you from being stunned if you need to flee, ymmv

Aside from that, thanks for your guide & videos ��

PS 100% iksar shaman here, and happy to be one. Tried and rerolled an innoruk troll shaman which I got to 20, got him a jbb that I eventually sold to a fellow ogre shaman, but I ended up reverting to my lizard, and I love it

Thank you:) Yeah I am still trying to figure out how to clarify every point succinctly.

I probably wasn't super clear on the Classic/Kunark Plate problem Iksars have. Iksars can wear all Velious Plate, so that isn't a factor here. It basically boils down to not being able to use https://wiki.project1999.com/Jaundiced_Bone_Bracer . This is a great item, even at level 60 with Torpor. This is because Shaman spell slots are quite premium. Having the ability to use one of my strongest DD spells for free, without wasting a spell gem, is quite useful in certain fights. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=umuVBewCNgY In this video, I am using JBB to deal damage, and keep my hate below my pet's, so it can tank for the whole fight. You do not NEED to use this strategy to kill Cliff Golems, but JBB gives you more options. I did a total of 5300 damage in that fight with the JBB, which is 1/6th of the Golem's total health.

I do address the innate AC bonus at the end. That is one of the main reasons why Iksars are the best RAID ONLY Shaman, as stated in my guide. If you are looking for maximum damage reduction, Iksars are the best race. They have Regeneration, extra AC, better base resistances than a Troll, and access to https://wiki.project1999.com/Stone_of_Morid .

As to your point about FSI, that is the strategy lol. You try to avoid turning your back on the mob as much as humanly possible. As a Torpor Shaman, you usually don't run away from mobs. You either die in place fighting, or gate out. This is because you are going to be snared a good portion of the fight anyway due to Torpor. Obviously there are rare occasions where you have to turn your back on a mob, but you can avoid turning your back on mobs most of the time if you are paying attention. You want to keep the mob in front of you anyway, even on non-ogres. This is because dodge doesn't work if the mob is hitting you from behind. You still want to have the mob in front of you whenever possible.

[DMN]

Your fixation on this shit is really disturbing.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Your fixation on this shit is really disturbing.

You should learn to have a conversation instead of just throwing out random insults. It just makes you look silly.

[DMN]

f just throwing out random insults. It just makes you look silly.

Get a mirror.

And I'll take silly over unhinged.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Get a mirror.

And I'll take silly over unhinged.

Let me know when you want to have a productive conversation, instead of senseless name calling:)

[kjs86z]

This is excessive for something that ultimately doesn't matter.

Wasn't the first thread enough?

[DeathsSilkyMist]

This is excessive for something that ultimately doesn't matter.

Wasn't the first thread enough?

I put this on the wiki so people have a single place to find this information, instead of trying to dig through multiple threads on the same topic. The question of "Which Shaman race is the best"? keeps popping up on this forum and on other forums, with different answers each time.

[Skarne]

Why are people getting so irritated with this guide? I can only speak for myself, but I really appreciate the work you put into this. Thank you and I suspect most players feel the same way I do. Good job.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Why are people getting so irritated with this guide? I can only speak for myself, but I really appreciate the work you put into this. Thank you and I suspect most players feel the same way I do. Good job.

Thank you again:) I honestly wonder the same thing myself.

[DMN]

Why are people getting so irritated with this guide? I can only speak for myself, but I really appreciate the work you put into this. Thank you and I suspect most players feel the same way I do. Good job.

Maybe when you have a spare weekend you can read through this abortion of a thread https://www.project1999.com/forums/showthread.php?t=361266 , which was torpedoed s by the OP of this thread and he author of the "guide"( AKA arbitrary opinion) referenced in this current thread.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Maybe when you have a spare weekend you can read through this abortion of a thread https://www.project1999.com/forums/showthread.php?t=361266 , which was torpedo's by the OP of this thread and "guide, AKA arbitrary opinion" referenced in this current thread.

Lol nothing in that thread "torpedos" my guide, or what I said. I clearly posted the facts and evidence. You continue to claim I am wrong, while posting nothing to prove it. You can keep claiming I am wrong, but that means nothing if you can't back it up:) I would love to see an actual argument from you. If you have a Troll Shaman, lets see some examples!

[DMN]

Lol nothing in that thread "torpedos" my guide, or what I said. I clearly posted the facts and evidence. You continue to claim I am wrong, while posting nothing to prove it. You can keep claiming I am wrong, but that means nothing if you can't back it up:) I would love to see an actual argument from you. If you have a Troll Shaman, lets see some examples!

You keep mentioning "facts" and "evidence" but are almost exclusively producing opinion and speculation. And I'm not going to spend my time teaching pigs to sing, particularly one as obstinate as you.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

You keep mentioning "facts" and "evidence" but are almost exclusively producing opinion and speculation. And I'm not going to spend my time teaching pigs to sing, particularly one as obstinate as you.

If you don't understand what facts and evidence are, that is not my problem, that is yours. I am still waiting for you to share what you actually disagree with:) Claiming someone is wrong and stopping there means nothing.

[DMN]

If you don't understand what facts and evidence are, that is not my problem, that is yours. I am still waiting for you to share what you actually disagree with:) Claiming someone is wrong and stopping there means nothing.

This is literally your summary:


This is the TLDR version of the guide. If you wish to see how I came to these conclusions, continue reading past this section.
NOTE: These lists are ranked ordered from best to worst.
Best Shaman race Post-Torpor
1. Ogre
2. Troll
3. Barbarian
4. Iksar
Best Shaman race Pre-Torpor
1. Troll
2. Ogre
3. Barbarian
4. Iksar
Best Shaman race that exclusively Raids
1. Iksar
2. Barbarian
3. Ogre
4. Troll


It's just some unhinged clown on the internet's opinion. The only actual evidence I've seen from you is your own psychosis and inability t understand basic english words like "facts", "evidence", and "opinion".

[DeathsSilkyMist]

This is literally your summary:


This is the TLDR version of the guide. If you wish to see how I came to these conclusions, continue reading past this section.
NOTE: These lists are ranked ordered from best to worst.
Best Shaman race Post-Torpor
1. Ogre
2. Troll
3. Barbarian
4. Iksar
Best Shaman race Pre-Torpor
1. Troll
2. Ogre
3. Barbarian
4. Iksar
Best Shaman race that exclusively Raids
1. Iksar
2. Barbarian
3. Ogre
4. Troll


It's just some unhinged clown on the internet's opinion. The only actual evidence I've seen from you is your own psychosis and inability t understand basic english words like "facts", "evidence", and "opinion".

Yes, the summary precludes the rest of the article lol. Did you actually read it? I provide a number of maths and videos to back up my claims. Anything specific you disagree with, besides your opinion I am wrong?

[DMN]

Yes, the summary precludes the rest of the article lol. Did you actually read it? I provide a number of maths and videos to back up my claims. Anything specific you disagree with, besides your opinion I am wrong?

No, I didn't bother to read it because for one, the summary told me everything I needed to know. For two, your idiocy has already wasted enough of my time.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

No, I didn't bother to read it because for one, the summary told me everything I needed to know. For two, your idiocy has already wasted enough of my time.

Come back after you have read it, and have actual points to argue. I appreciate your honesty at least. You aren't hiding your obvious bias against me:) That bias does nothing to prove your point that I am wrong, however.

[Saisu]

DMN, lay some knowledge on me. Is the general argument races are functionally exactly the same with no “best”? Is he vastly underestimating the benefit of racial regen?

As someone without a Shaman, I’m not sure what your counterclaim is or where the disagreement is? Is this just some personal beef between the two of you, bad blood in the past?

[Danth]

Even if it were just his opinion (it isn't, there's a lot of raw data in there in addition to some opinion), have you guys read some of the other guides on the wiki? Shouldn't be overly hard on him simply because you differ from his conclusions. At least, not here--use the other thread for that. By wiki standards it's a perfectly fine guide and no less subjective than many others.

EDIT: In response to the above post, the fundamental issue is that either the ogre racial or troll regen are both so largely inconsequential to an established level 60 Shaman that the P99 community can't agree on which is ultimately "better." Pick one or the other but either way it's splitting hairs. To his credit Shamwowi mentions that in his guide.


Danth

[rabids]

Post after Post you ignore what people say to you, including myself.

Totally agree with you Baler. I also tried to discuss seriously with DeathsSilkyMist. After a lot of posts where he ignored some points and seemingly on pupose misunderstood or focused on absurd details on most of the other arguments I just assumed DeathsSilkyMist was a troll (I do love that he is trolling about trolls though!) and stopped reading his posts.

Anyone that wants to make up their own minds about this can just read the other thread and decide for yourself what you think.

Im not going to be drawn into the discussion again, but I still find it really funny that you think videos and math automatically qualifies as proof and evidence😂

Cudos for spending so much time on it though! Its not often I see someone go to such lengths to be right...

[Crede]

DMN, lay some knowledge on me. Is the general argument races are functionally exactly the same with no “best”? Is he vastly underestimating the benefit of racial regen?

As someone without a Shaman, I’m not sure what your counterclaim is or where the disagreement is? Is this just some personal beef between the two of you, bad blood in the past?

https://www.project1999.com/forums/showthread.php?t=361266

Feel free to read the massive recent thread on this. At least 4-5 people have just stopped talking to the OP, not because they felt he was right, but because when they realized the length that he would go to defend his ogre bias, they realized they had already wasted enough time with it.

He’s definitely one of the most well disguised trolls I’ve seen on these forums, I’ll give him that.

[DMN]

DMN, lay some knowledge on me. Is the general argument races are functionally exactly the same with no “best”? Is he vastly underestimating the benefit of racial regen?

As someone without a Shaman, I’m not sure what your counterclaim is or where the disagreement is? Is this just some personal beef between the two of you, bad blood in the past?

Again, you can read that other thread. The dude is a consummate liar who pretends to be some sort of arbiter of truth/facts. Only his version of things matter or are considered "fact" or "evidence", despite his entire inability to produce a single shred of evidence that FSi has ever helped him even just once in his entire existence as an ogre shaman.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Even if it were just his opinion (it isn't, there's a lot of raw data in there in addition to some opinion), have you guys read some of the other guides on the wiki? Shouldn't be overly hard on him simply because you differ from his conclusions. At least, not here--use the other thread for that. By wiki standards it's a perfectly fine guide and no less subjective than many others.

EDIT: In response to the above post, the fundamental issue is that either the ogre racial or troll regen are both so largely inconsequential to an established level 60 Shaman that the P99 community can't agree on which is ultimately "better." Pick one or the other but either way it's splitting hairs. To his credit Shamwowi mentions that in his guide.


Danth

Thanks Danth:)

Totally agree with you Baler. I also tried to discuss seriously with DeathsSilkyMist. After a lot of posts where he ignored some points and seemingly on pupose misunderstood or focused on absurd details on most of the other arguments I just assumed DeathsSilkyMist was a troll (I do love that he is trolling about trolls though!) and stopped reading his posts.

Anyone that wants to make up their own minds about this can just read the other thread and decide for yourself what you think.

Im not going to be drawn into the discussion again, but I still find it really funny that you think videos and math automatically qualifies as proof and evidence��

Cudos for spending so much time on it though! Its not often I see someone go to such lengths to be right...

I find it odd that people think math and videos are not evidence. The game works on math:) Troll/Iksar Regeneration is 100% quantifiable at all times in the game. Not sure where the disagreement is here. Percentages are math, and the entire game works off of Percentages for most mechanics, including Frontal Stun Immunity. Having X% chance for FSI to trigger is exactly the same mechanic as X% chance for dodge to trigger, for example. The only difference is FSI isn't a skill, so there is no change over time in terms of how often it can trigger, based on skill level.

https://www.project1999.com/forums/showthread.php?t=361266

Feel free to read the massive recent thread on this. At least 4-5 people have just stopped talking to the OP, not because they felt he was right, but because when they realized the length that he would go to defend his ogre bias, they realized they had already wasted enough time with it.

He’s definitely one of the most well disguised trolls I’ve seen on these forums, I’ll give him that.

I am not sure why having a discussion is trolling lol. I am actually spending time and energy proving my points, whereas everyone else in the linked thread claims to be right, while not doing much to back it up. Why am I the troll when I try to prove why my points are correct?

EDIT: I also find it a little ironic that some of the people in that thread who have Troll Shamans are the ones claiming Troll Shamans are the best. However, the fact that they have a Troll Shaman is no indication of bias. Only me having an Ogre Shaman is considered biased. Very interesting:)

Again, you can read that other thread. The dude is a consummate liar who pretends to be some sort of arbiter of truth/facts. Only his version of things matter or are considered "fact" or "evidence", despite his entire inability to produce a single shred of evidence that FSi has ever helped him even just once in his entire existence as an ogre shaman.

Show me a lie I have told, and show why it is a lie, and not just you disagreeing with me:)

EDIT: here is one video showing proof of FSI https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uEgFcImQ9XU . Most of my videos on my channel show me in combat, FSI is working there too. Why don't you show one video where Troll/Iksar Regeneration ever helped you just once?:) I keep asking, and get nothing.

[rabids]

I find it odd that people think math and videos are not evidence. The game works on math:) Troll/Iksar Regeneration is 100% quantifiable at all times in the game. Not sure where the disagreement is here. Percentages are math, and the entire game works off of Percentages for most mechanics, including Frontal Stun Immunity. Having X% chance for FSI to trigger is exactly the same mechanic as X% chance for dodge to trigger, for example. The only difference is FSI isn't a skill, so there is no change over time in terms of how often it can trigger, based on skill level.

You are proving my point with this reply here. It seems like you are willfully (or stupidly? You choose.) misunderstanding again. I said:

but I still find it really funny that you think videos and math automatically qualifies as proof and evidence

Notice the word AUTOMATICALLY. You reply as if I said that math and videos never can be proof and evidence. I know they *can* be, Im just saying that your videos and math isnt automatically proof and evidence, they are examples. If you were at all interested, you would have already know this, since I spent at least two posts talking with you about what qualifies as proof in the other thread.


I am not sure why having a discussion is trolling lol. I am actually spending time and energy proving my points, whereas everyone else in the linked thread claims to be right, while not doing much to back it up. Why am I the troll when I try to prove why my points are correct?

Everyone can see for themselves in the other thread if they are interested whether "everyone else claims to be right and doesnt back it up" or not. I think that we did back up our arguments, just that you for some reason or other ignored it, misunderstood it, focused on something else or just said that the argument was invalid (since you are the ultimate judge of whats valid or not). I feel that is a pretty good description of a troll.

EDIT: I also find it a little ironic that some of the people in that thread who have Troll Shamans are the ones claiming Troll Shamans are the best. However, the fact that they have a Troll Shaman is no indication of bias. Only me having an Ogre Shaman is considered biased. Very interesting:)

I dont say that Troll is aways best for a torpor shaman. Im saying that it CAN be best for some players and Ogre can be best for others. You are on the other hand saying that ogre is best for every torpored shaman. I dont think any of us can say that and I would feel arrogant if I said something like that. Playstyles are different for a lot of us and if I feel that a troll is best for me at the moment (I do) that should be ok. I am probably biased, even though I feel like I have given lots of logical and objective arguments as to why I like troll the best. Its ok to be biased. You are the one that insist that you arent biased. That is the problem.

I am not going to go into the discussion about whether troll or orgre is best again. I dont care enough. Again, if someone is interested, its all in the other thread.


Even if it were just his opinion (it isn't, there's a lot of raw data in there in addition to some opinion), have you guys read some of the other guides on the wiki? Shouldn't be overly hard on him simply because you differ from his conclusions. At least, not here--use the other thread for that. By wiki standards it's a perfectly fine guide and no less subjective than many others.

I agree with you Danth. Nothing wrong with writing a guide, and a lot of the guides are more or less subjective. I like it best when they are objective, when they cover even more of the other side of the argument (You would think that he would know what that is after so many pages of "discussing" it) or when they say they are biased. There are good guides and bad guides. I would call this an alright guide. Lots of work put into it and it will probably help new players decide on their race for a shaman. I dont really care what races new or old players choose.

What I take issue with is the way he is summing up a thread that I spent a lot of time participating in. I thought it was a genuine discussion with respect and interest in what others thought. After investing some time discussing with DeathsSilkyMist I felt trolled. That in itself isnt too bad, it was a really good trolling where I didnt even notice it for quite some time. What can you do after being trolled, just accept that you were fooled and move on. I am not mad about it, but its worth it to me to write a couple of posts giving my two cents.


PS. I cant say that DeathsSilkyMist wants to be a troll or not. Only he knows that. But if you sound like a troll and do the things trolls do, then I will call you a troll:)
You might think that Ogre is the best race, but you are one of the best trolls I have met! :D

[DeathsSilkyMist]

You are proving my point with this reply here. It seems like you are willfully (or stupidly? You choose.) misunderstanding again. I said:

"but I still find it really funny that you think videos and math automatically qualifies as proof and evidence"

Notice the word AUTOMATICALLY. You reply as if I said that math and videos never can be proof and evidence. I know they *can* be, Im just saying that your videos and math isnt automatically proof and evidence, they are examples. If you were at all interested, you would have already know this, since I spent at least two posts talking with you about what qualifies as proof in the other thread.


Insulting people isn't proving any points. Saying I am stupid means nothing.

You are proving my point honestly. You keep suggesting my math and videos are not evidence, without actually explaining why. Of course not all evidence is equal. I never said otherwise. Just because evidence can be bad, it doesn't automatically make mine bad. Please show me where you disagree, so we can have a discussion. I really don't understand why people think that saying "You are wrong" is a good enough argument to disprove evidence. Show some of your own, to back up your claims.


Everyone can see for themselves in the other thread if they are interested whether "everyone else claims to be right and doesnt back it up" or not. I think that we did back up our arguments, just that you for some reason or other ignored it, misunderstood it, focused on something else or just said that the argument was invalid (since you are the ultimate judge of whats valid or not). I feel that is a pretty good description of a troll.


So far, no one has provided evidence, or even shown any math that discredits mine. I am the only one so far to post actual examples, instead of just insisting my examples are real. I am not sure where you think the points you support were well proven in that thread. Everquest, like any other game, works with math and rule sets. This means there is an objective truth to how the game functions. Video games aren't mystical in any way. You can accurately quantify how the game works, as I have been doing.


I dont say that Troll is aways best for a torpor shaman. Im saying that it CAN be best for some players and Ogre can be best for others. You are on the other hand saying that ogre is best for every torpored shaman. I dont think any of us can say that and I would feel arrogant if I said something like that. Playstyles are different for a lot of us and if I feel that a troll is best for me at the moment (I do) that should be ok. I am probably biased, even though I feel like I have given lots of logical and objective arguments as to why I like troll the best. Its ok to be biased. You are the one that insist that you arent biased. That is the problem.


I didn't say you did:) I said some people. I never disagreed that other races can be the best at certain things, and that I even detail that in my guide lol. Ogres are the best overall Shaman, Trolls are the best Shaman Pre-Torpor, Barbarians are the best guild bot Shamans, and Iksars are the best Raid Only shaman due to their slightly better ability to mitigate damage compared to any other race. Overall best Shaman simply means FSI has the best bang for your buck if you have a general playstyle of Soloing, Grouping, and Raiding. I don't know why you think my guide is trying to force people to play a specific race. I never even claimed you can't prefer Trolls even if they are not the best race lol. I am just showing people the objective facts, so they can make the best decision for themselves.

Everyone is a little bit biased. My problem is people are using bias as an argument. Just because I have an Ogre Shaman, it doesn't automatically disqualify my evidence. I simply find it ironic people are using the bias argument here when Troll Shamans are also arguing that they themselves are the best:)


I agree with you Danth. Nothing wrong with writing a guide, and a lot of the guides are more or less subjective. I like it best when they are objective, when they cover even more of the other side of the argument (You would think that he would know what that is after so many pages of "discussing" it) or when they say they are biased. There are good guides and bad guides. I would call this an alright guide. Lots of work put into it and it will probably help new players decide on their race for a shaman. I dont really care what races new or old players choose.

What I take issue with is the way he is summing up a thread that I spent a lot of time participating in. I thought it was a genuine discussion with respect and interest in what others thought. After investing some time discussing with DeathsSilkyMist I felt trolled. That in itself isnt too bad, it was a really good trolling where I didnt even notice it for quite some time. What can you do after being trolled, just accept that you were fooled and move on. I am not mad about it, but its worth it to me to write a couple of posts giving my two cents.


PS. I cant say that DeathsSilkyMist wants to be a troll or not. Only he knows that. But if you sound like a troll and do the things trolls do, then I will call you a troll:)
You might think that Ogre is the best race, but you are one of the best trolls I have met! :D

I am not trying to be disrespectful. The simple fact is most people in that thread have not done any work to prove their points, including yourself. If you have great evidence showing a Troll Shaman at their finest, I would love to see it, and have a discussion. I just find it odd that I am the bad guy here when I provide more evidence than other people.

I also find it odd that "Trolling" these days is disagreeing with someone. Not sure where that became the definition. If you think me sticking to my guns is trolling, then I disagree. I would honestly love to see a Troll Shaman come in here and drop some serious evidence. I doubt that will happen however, since Troll/Iksar Regeneration is quantifiable, so there isn't really any way around that. I have also shown plenty of examples as to why Snare Neck is very meh.

Thanks for taking the time though to write here, I appreciate it!

[rabids]

Also, I just looked at the video you posted and cant help myself:)

here is one video showing proof of FSI https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uEgFcImQ9XU . Most of my videos on my channel show me in combat, FSI is working there too.

Yes, FSI is working. No one is disagreeing:) But you keep saying that FSI can save your life and that regen only saves time. You have yet to show a video where FSI saves your life. In your video it only saves you time too. It might be that it saves you more time then regen in this video, and it might even be that it saves you more then regen AND snare (even if you spend a full minute pulling to somewhere its safe for the mob to run unsnared).

This is an *example* of FSI saving you some time and maybe some stress. Not a *proof* of FSI being better then regen+snare for every torpored shaman.

Why don't you show one video where Troll/Iksar Regeneration ever helped you just once? I keep asking, and get nothing.

Do you really think that regen (and snare, dont forget that) isnt helpful because you havent seen a video of it? :P lol. Just lol.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Also, I just looked at the video you posted and cant help myself:)

here is one video showing proof of FSI https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uEgFcImQ9XU . Most of my videos on my channel show me in combat, FSI is working there too.

Yes, FSI is working. No one is disagreeing:) But you keep saying that FSI can save your life and that regen only saves time. You have yet to show a video where FSI saves your life. In your video it only saves you time too. It might be that it saves you more time then regen in this video, and it might even be that it saves you more then regen AND snare (even if you spend a full minute pulling to somewhere its safe for the mob to run unsnared).

This is an *example* of FSI saving you some time and maybe some stress. Not a *proof* of FSI being better then regen+snare for every torpored shaman.

Why don't you show one video where Troll/Iksar Regeneration ever helped you just once? I keep asking, and get nothing.

Do you really think that regen (and snare, dont forget that) isnt helpful because you havent seen a video of it? :P lol. Just lol.

Do people just not read my guide before posting?:)

I specifically state in BOTH the Regeneration and FSI section that FSI and Regeneration ONLY save you time when they are not saving your life. The difference between Regeneration and FSI is FSI saves time DURING the fight when it is not saving your life, whereas Regeneration does NOTHING during the fight when it is not saving your life. That is why FSI is better. But as I state in my guide, saving a few seconds per fight isn't a big deal anyway:) FSI simply DOES something during a fight when you are not going to die, whereas Regeneration doesn't, which is why FSI is generally superior. Both can save your life in rare occasions, and that is in the guide.

I posted two videos showing how bad Snare Neck is: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4qGq5PZbMXc and https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mUYSN1sN9z8 . I would LOVE to see someone post a video where clinging darkness did something amazing. So far, I have yet to run into a video or situation where that is the case, and I have done a lot in EQ:)

[rabids]

Insulting people isn't proving any points. Saying I am stupid means nothing.

I dont think you are stupid and even though I know it is an insult, insulting you wasnt the point of adding it to my post. I agree that insults in itself never is constructive. I think you are willfully misunderstanding and the only other option I can think of is that you is stupidly misunderstanding. I dont think anyone who has read your posts really think you are stupid. If you can explain howcome you misunderstand my points and arguments so often another way I will apologize.

You are proving my point honestly. You keep suggesting my math and videos are not evidence, without actually explaining why. Of course not all evidence is equal. I never said otherwise. Just because evidence can be bad, it doesn't automatically make mine bad. Please show me where you disagree, so we can have a discussion. I really don't understand why people think that saying "You are wrong" is a good enough argument to disprove evidence. Show some of your own, to back up your claims.

I did all those things. You know I did, you replied to it. You just didnt accept my arguments and logic as good enough, partly because I didnt make videos. I also used some math, but it seems it isnt good enough when others do it:)

So far, no one has provided evidence, or even shown any math that discredits mine. I am the only one so far to post actual examples, instead of just insisting my examples are real.

We did. Again, you just didnt accept it as evidence or valid arguments. Thanks though for calling your videos examples and not proof:) I have no issues with your videos as long as they are only examples.

I am not trying to be disrespectful. The simple fact is most people in that thread have not done any work to prove their points, including yourself. If you have great evidence showing a Troll Shaman at their finest, I would love to see it, and have a discussion. I just find it odd that I am the bad guy here when I provide more evidence than other people.

That you say that I (and others) havent done any work to prove my points IS disrespectful. So if you dont want to be disrepectful, you should stop saying that.

I dont really care what you think about any of this any more, I am only trying to explain why so many (including me) gets a bit miffed with your guide. If anyone else cares, read the thread and decide for yourself.

I also find it odd that "Trolling" these days is disagreeing with someone. Not sure where that became the definition. If you think me sticking to my guns is trolling, then I disagree. I would honestly love to see a Troll Shaman come in here and drop some serious evidence.

I agree with you that disagreeing with someone doesnt make you a troll. I also agree with you that sticking to your guns doesnt have to be trolling.

If you dont understand why I call you a troll, just read the second last post I made. I think I explain it pretty well there.

[rabids]

Anyway! I didnt think I would spend any more time on this, but now I have. Thanks for the fun!

Good guide, bad discussion and enjoy EQ both in game and in the forums whether you are trolling or not;)

Im out:D

[DeathsSilkyMist]

I dont think you are stupid and even though I know it is an insult, insulting you wasnt the point of adding it to my post. I agree that insults in itself never is constructive. I think you are willfully misunderstanding and the only other option I can think of is that you is stupidly misunderstanding. I dont think anyone who has read your posts really think you are stupid. If you can explain howcome you misunderstand my points and arguments so often another way I will apologize.



I did all those things. You know I did, you replied to it. You just didnt accept my arguments and logic as good enough, partly because I didnt make videos. I also used some math, but it seems it isnt good enough when others do it:)



We did. Again, you just didnt accept it as evidence or valid arguments. Thanks though for calling your videos examples and not proof:) I have no issues with your videos as long as they are only examples.



That you say that I (and others) havent done any work to prove my points IS disrespectful. So if you dont want to be disrepectful, you should stop saying that.

I dont really care what you think about any of this any more, I am only trying to explain why so many (including me) gets a bit miffed with your guide. If anyone else cares, read the thread and decide for yourself.



I agree with you that disagreeing with someone doesnt make you a troll. I also agree with you that sticking to your guns doesnt have to be trolling.

If you dont understand why I call you a troll, just read the second last post I made. I think I explain it pretty well there.

Don't call me stupid if that wasn't the point:) You are claiming I am willfully misunderstanding things, but have yet to show me doing that.

Show me the so called evidence I purposely glossed over. Claiming this isn't evidence of me doing it. Maybe your evidence was just easy to counter?

I am simply pointing out how people seem to think typing out a specific situation in text is somehow different or superior to a video of actual gameplay in P99. If you claim Snare Neck is great for a specific camp, for example, then do more than claim it. Show me a video. Then I can take a look, and see if Snare Neck was required. I could even make a video myself showing me doing the camp without it:)

[rabids]

Cant help myself!! At least its fun this time:)

Don't call me stupid if that wasn't the point:)

I didnt actually call you stupid though, I just said that was the other option I could think of:)

You are claiming I am willfully misunderstanding things, but have yet to show me doing that.

Show me the so called evidence I purposely glossed over. Claiming this isn't evidence of me doing it. Maybe your evidence was just easy to counter?

Maybe so. If anyone cares, they can read it. I had maybe 10 or so posts in the other thread, its not hard to find.

I cant be bothered to sift through that massive thread looking for the quotes. I just dont care enough:) Plus, whats the point. You were there after all:)

I'll give you this quote to explain why Im not going into the same discussion with you again:)
The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results.

If people think I am unreasonable not backing up my claims here, thats ok.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Cant help myself!! At least its fun this time:)



I didnt actually call you stupid though, I just said that was the other option I could think of:)



Maybe so. If anyone cares, they can read it. I had maybe 10 or so posts in the other thread, its not hard to find.

I cant be bothered to sift through that massive thread looking for the quotes. I just dont care enough:) Plus, whats the point. You were there after all:)

I'll give you this quote to explain why Im not going into the same discussion with you again:)


If people think I am unreasonable not backing up my claims here, thats ok.

Honestly, why bother making a claim that you cannot back up? It does nothing. You saying I did something that you cannot prove is the same as just saying "I am right and you are wrong". That gets us nowhere. I would love to be proven wrong, if you can do it!

[Danth]

Then I can take a look, and see if Snare Neck was required. I could even make a video myself showing me doing the camp without it:)

Snare neck is IMO somewhat akin to the ogre racial in that its perceived effect is greater than its actual impact. Simply put, it reduces nuisance. If any shaman racial bonus actually matters it's probably slam for the simple reason that the class otherwise severely lacks interrupts: Slam is somewhat unreliable, but it's still sometimes the difference between "I'll give this a try," and "That thing can gate, forget it." That's why I'm lukewarm towards iksars, at least.

Speaking of the ogre racial, I appreciate you trying to measure it out and put actual numbers to its real-world effect. Frontal bash resist is one of the most talked-about passive abilities on this forum and it's nice seeing trials being done to determine its actual effect in situations favorable to it. Your testing confirms that it's not a big deal, a reality which your guide points out practically at the top.

Danth

[DMN]

Snare neck is IMO somewhat akin to the ogre racial in that its perceived effect is greater than its actual impact. Simply put, it reduces nuisance. If any shaman racial bonus actually matters it's probably slam for the simple reason that the class otherwise severely lacks interrupts: Slam is somewhat unreliable, but it's still sometimes the difference between "I'll give this a try," and "That thing can gate, forget it." That's why I'm lukewarm towards iksars, at least.



Well iksars(and trolls) can get the CT symbol, which will give them essentially a stun on a 2 second cast time-- assuming you have the mob rooted(or having it flee is no big deal) and is undead. I wouldn't be surprised if that also didn't make it into his "guide".

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Snare neck is IMO somewhat akin to the ogre racial in that its perceived effect is greater than its actual impact. Simply put, it reduces nuisance. If any shaman racial bonus actually matters it's probably slam for the simple reason that the class otherwise severely lacks interrupts: Slam is somewhat unreliable, but it's still sometimes the difference between "I'll give this a try," and "That thing can gate, forget it." That's why I'm lukewarm towards iksars, at least.

Speaking of the ogre racial, I appreciate you trying to measure it out and put actual numbers to its real-world effect. Frontal bash resist is one of the most talked-about passive abilities on this forum and it's nice seeing trials being done to determine its actual effect in situations favorable to it. Your testing confirms that it's not a big deal, a reality which your guide points out practically at the top.

Danth

Completely agree here!

Well iksars(and trolls) can get the CT symbol, which will give them essentially a stun on a 2 second cast time-- assuming you have the mob rooted(or having it flee is no big deal) and is undead. I wouldn't be surprised if that also didn't make it into his "guide".

Hey, thanks for mentioning the CT symbol! I did forget about that. I can include it in my guide for sure. Shamans can already fear kite with blind if they really wanted to. The problem is there just aren't a lot of situations where this is needed. I did use blind kiting once on enchanter mobs so they wouldn't Charm me, but that was before I was level 60 with decent resistance gear.

[DMN]

Hey, thanks for mentioning the CT symbol! I did forget about that. I can include it in my guide for sure. Shamans can already fear kite with blind if they really wanted to. The problem is there just aren't a lot of situations where this is needed. I did use blind kiting once on enchanter mobs so they wouldn't Charm me, but that was before I was level 60 with decent resistance gear.

Well, blinds don't stun. And fear enables people/pets to stay in melee range of the feared enemy the entire duration. Blinds cast a tiny bit faster but have a relatively long cooldown time if the mob resists while the symbol can be spammed. You also can't be summoned through fear.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Well, blinds don't stun. And fear enables people/pets to stay in melee range of the feared enemy the entire duration. Blinds cast a tiny bit faster but have a relatively long cooldown time of the mob resists while the symbol can be spammed.

Yes, those are two great points. For undead mobs, you could interrupt spell casting with it, and have a pet chase them while they are feared. As far as I am aware, Fears do not actually "stun" a mob, it just ends the current spell they are casting if they start running. I haven't tested this in a long time, but I do not believe fear has any affect on mobs that are rooted. Do rooted mobs stop casting their current spell when they are feared? I don't think I have ever tried that specifically. That would be cool if you could use fears as a spell interrupt on rooted mobs, even though they will still melee attack you due to the root.

However, this goes back to the point I make in this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5kYEDUOoKU4 . For most spell caster mobs, you can just tank spells with high resistances. You can also use line of sight to avoid spell casting. In this video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qS3uoIHTu_c I can show an example of how to prevent mobs from gating by fighting them near their spawn point. The first mob I fight in this video is a pather. You cannot fight him at the end of his path, because he just gates. Instead, you can fight him near his spawn point, to prevent gating.

So I completely agree that the CT necklace could have some limited uses in very specific scenarios, but it is pretty common to use the two tactics above to take out spell casting mobs.

For CH mobs, if you have the runway to fear them, you can start blind kiting them before 40%, so fear is not really required there either.

[DMN]

Yes, those are two great points. For undead mobs, you could interrupt spell casting with it, and have a pet chase them while they are feared. As far as I am aware, Fears do not actually "stun" a mob, it just ends the current spell they are casting. I haven't tested this in a long time, but I do not believe fear has any affect on mobs that are rooted. Do rooted mobs stop casting their current spell when they are feared? I don't think I have ever tried that specifically. That would be cool if you could use fears as a spell interrupt on rooted mobs, even though they will still melee attack you due to the root.


Ya, feared mobs will have their spell interrupted if rooted. And you are right it's not truly a "stun". that can be beneficial sometimes actually, as some mobs are immune to stuns but not fear.

If all you wanted to do is solo farm seb crypt/howling stones, a CT following troll/iksar is most likely beat out FSI or snare.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Ya, feared mobs will have their spell interrupted if rooted. And you are right it's not truly a "stun". that can be beneficial sometimes actually, as some mobs are immune to stuns but not fear.

If all you wanted to do is solo farm seb crypt/howling stones, a CT following troll/iksar is most likely beat out FSI or snare.

That is really cool, I never knew that! I need to try that out.

[Maschenny]

Ya, feared mobs will have their spell interrupted if rooted. And you are right it's not truly a "stun". that can be beneficial sometimes actually, as some mobs are immune to stuns but not fear.

If all you wanted to do is solo farm seb crypt/howling stones, a CT following troll/iksar is most likely beat out FSI or snare.

Interesting. I didn't know that about fear. Do shamans have any other options at spell interrupt?

[DMN]

Interesting. I didn't know that about fear. Do shamans have any other options at spell interrupt?

Not really. A small chance to land their own slam and be lucky enough to roll an interrupt or stun (non-iksars only). theoretically the pet could also have a small chance to land an opportune stun/interrupt as well if the stars align just right. The inability to interrupt mobs is one of the major weaknesses of shaman.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Interesting. I didn't know that about fear. Do shamans have any other options at spell interrupt?

They do not have a lot of options, unfortunately.

Only Cazic Thule Shamans (Trolls/Iksars) can get the fear clickies for Animals and Undead.

Most Shaman races (except Iksars) get Slam, which can do the trick if you are lucky.

Shamans do get https://wiki.project1999.com/Charm_Animals , but that isn't very useful since it is for animals only, and you can only charm animals up to level 33 with this spell. I am not sure if there are even that many animals that do spell casting.

Usually Shamans need to deal with spell casters directly. Using Line of Sight in dungeons and high resistances to tank spells are generally the best options.

Your pet bashes, but that is extremely random, and not reliable at all to try and interrupt a specific spell.

https://wiki.project1999.com/Blinding_Luminance you can use blind to do what is called Blind Kiting. Landing the blind won't interrupt a spell already being cast, but if the mob is not next to anything on it's hate list, it will run around just like a fear. This means they will not cast any more spells until the bind wears off, or something on their hate list becomes close to them. This strategy doesn't have a lot of areas where it is usable, since you need a decent runway for the mob to run, and for you to stay out of it's way. I did use this tactic in Cobalt Scar on the Sirens there, to prevent them from charming me. This was when I was around level 52.

[isoka]

Even with an experienced tank, it can be tough to keep up agro on multiple mobs when a Shaman needs to slow and heal. Doing 6+ Dragons is a great example here. I am usually on Rampage, even in a group of 6, due to slowing and healing. Torpor's range requires me to be in Rampage distance, so I am taking hits in the fight. I don't believe Bashes happen on rampage (I am usually not paying attention to that), so FSI probably doesn't apply to rampage hits. Also, I sometimes pull as a Shaman if there is no need to do crazy pulling shenanigans, because I am already going to be high on the hate list initially, when trying to land a slow.


Actually, that was the worst possible example chosen since rampage list isn't a matter of how much hate you have but of being highest on agro list while not being MT.
No matter how experienced the main tank is, those are not related.

If you don t want to eat rampage, don t pull and/or wait for others to engage before slowing/maloing.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Actually, that was the worst possible example chosen since rampage list isn't a matter of how much hate you have but of being highest on agro list while not being MT.
No matter how experienced the main tank is, those are not related.

If you don t want to eat rampage, don t pull and/or wait for others to engage before slowing/maloing.

I think you missed the point I was trying to make. Being on Rampage means you have the second highest agro on the mobs hate list. For Shamans, this is common, because Shamans are usually healing and Slowing. Both generate a good amount of agro. When you are second on the hate list, you are the closest player to surpassing the tank on the agro list. A string of slow resists could do that, because slow generates a lot of agro.

For 6+ Dragons in a small group, you don't have the luxury to wait for the tank and dps to build agro before slowing and healing. The tank will die if you do that. Slows need to land ASAP to maximize the mana you save on future healing. Maybe a Warrior using discs could do it, but you don't always have a Warrior tanking.

[Danth]

Being on Rampage means you have the second highest agro on the mobs hate list.

Negative, it means you attacked the target sooner than anyone else except possibly the person who's acting as tank. Rampage works based on order-of-engage. Other players can overtake the rampage target's aggro but he'll still have rampage; that's how healers get stuck with rampage damage sometimes. Once you have rampage the only way you get rid of it is either clearing off the hatelist entirely (feign/etc) or moving outside its range limit. You're not necessarily second on aggro so much as you're a good shaman who likes to aggressively slow stuff--as it should be.

I agree that Shamans in solo/duo/smallman situations generally want to slow stuff ASAP. I like telling the wife to cast as soon as she's in spell range and as quickly as cooldown permits. If your tank is a Paladin or Shadow Knight or similar high-hate class then that's no issue, but if you're running around with a Warrior or Monk or similar melee who generates less frontloaded threat then the Shaman's probably going to be getting hit.

Danth

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Negative, it means you attacked the target sooner than anyone else except possibly the person who's acting as tank. Rampage works based on order-of-engage. Other players can overtake the rampage target's aggro but he'll still have rampage; that's how healers get stuck with rampage damage sometimes. Once you have rampage the only way you get rid of it is either clearing off the hatelist entirely (feign/etc) or moving outside its range limit. You're not necessarily second on aggro so much as you're a good shaman who likes to aggressively slow stuff--as it should be.

I agree that Shamans in solo/duo/smallman situations generally want to slow stuff ASAP. I like telling the wife to cast as soon as she's in spell range and as quickly as cooldown permits. If your tank is a Paladin or Shadow Knight or similar high-hate class then that's no issue, but if you're running around with a Warrior or Monk or similar melee who generates less frontloaded threat then the Shaman's probably going to be getting hit.

Danth

Interesting, that is good to know! I just assumed EQ had simpler logic for this, since the hate list already exists. That means they have a separate list for Rampage as well.

I guess I just don't notice that nuance too much, since groups have a small amount of people anyway, and raids are usually much more organized in terms of people ensuring they have their agro together. If a rogue or something gets agro, they are usually dead in two seconds anyway lol.

EDIT: And yes, I do agree with Isoka that if you do have an awesome group composition, a Shaman can be more flexible overall in terms of when they need to start Slowing/Debuffing. I didn't mention the presumption here (my fault), which is many 6+ Dragon groups are anything but awesome group compositions. They tend to be pick up groups with guildies or people in the zone, so it is a bit of a crapshoot for group composition, levels, and overall gear. This means Shamans are usually required to Slow and debuff ASAP, since they are often the only primary healer in the group. Torpor isn't that great of a heal when a mob is unslowed, especially when that mob is dealing 200+ damage per hit. You really need the mob to be slowed for Torpor to consistently out heal the damage. Otherwise, I would need Chloroblast on bar to spot heal while Torpor is still ticking.

If I do get a perfect group in any situation, then most encounters are quite easy anyway, and all racial bonuses basically become pointless.

[Arvan]

Imagine being this salty

[Penish]

Did you guys know Ogre's are far superior in the casting world because of frontal stun immunity? lol

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Imagine being this salty

Yeah, some people get really offended by the Shaman race debate. Not sure why to be honest. I just assume people want straight information about the game, so they can make the best choice when trying out a new class. I don't think anyone here is claiming a re-roll of your character is required to be a good Shaman. Play what you want. Some people simply like Min/Maxing (myself included), and that should be supported just as much as a person who plays one race exclusively due to that race's awesome fashion.

[Oddbaal]

Holy shit, the haters in this thread. Sickening. Nice content OP ty

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Holy shit, the haters in this thread. Sickening. Nice content OP ty

Thank you very much:)

[pivo]

Well, apparently there is not that much of a difference between races, or else everyone would agree which one is the best...

So, Barb Shaman for this inexperienced clumsy player ;)

[Nycon43]

Well, apparently there is not that much of a difference between races, or else everyone would agree which one is the best...

So, Barb Shaman for this inexperienced clumsy player ;)

That's pretty much what it boils down to. Just play the race you like looking at.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Well, apparently there is not that much of a difference between races, or else everyone would agree which one is the best...

So, Barb Shaman for this inexperienced clumsy player ;)

That's pretty much what it boils down to. Just play the race you like looking at.

There is objectively a best Shaman Race. Read my guide for more details:)

Some people prefer Min/Maxing over fashion. These types of discussions are for those people. Knowledge is power, and people like to know what benefits they can expect from each race, and what they are missing.

Everquest is a LONG game, and some people want to make the best version of a class. This is because most people are not going to make multiple characters of the same class. Some people do, and that is awesome, but it isn't super common.

If you prefer fashion over Min/Maxing, that is completely fine too:)

EDIT: No Shaman race is so bad or so good that it changes which content you can do. This is why Shaman racials are not a huge issue at the end. That doesn't mean it isn't worthwhile to know which race is the best, if that is what you want to know.

[Nycon43]

There is objectively a best Shaman Race. Read my guide for more details:)

Some people prefer Min/Maxing over fashion. These types of discussions are for those people. Knowledge is power, and people like to know what benefits they can expect from each race, and what they are missing.

Everquest is a LONG game, and some people want to make the best version of a class. This is because most people are not going to make multiple characters of the same class. Some people do, and that is awesome, but it isn't super common.

If you prefer fashion over Min/Maxing, that is completely fine too:)

EDIT: No Shaman race is so bad or so good that it changes which content you can do. This is why Shaman racials are not a huge issue at the end. That doesn't mean it isn't worthwhile to know which race is the best, if that is what you want to know.

I mean in your own guide you break down pre-torpor/torpor/raid exclusive sections and each #1 race is different.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

I mean in your own guide you break down pre-torpor/torpor/raid exclusive sections and each #1 race is different.

Yes, I have the other sections for completions sake. The majority of players who create a character do so with the assumption that they will complete the character one day, even if they never do. Due to Everquests length, it is not easy to create multiple level 50+ characters for very specific purposes. There are definitely people that do this, but that usually requires the player to be experienced and dedicated already. This guide is probably not too much use for those kinds of players anyway.

The Post-Torpor sections are for the majority of players, who want to know what their character will look like in the end. This allows them to make the best possible decision when creating their new character, since that decision will affect their character after months or years of play.

Creating a Shaman who will never reach level 60, or exclusively raids, is for a minority of players.

[Noselacri]

I think it's silly to base anything on the presumption of "full BiS gear."

[DeathsSilkyMist]

I think it's silly to base anything on the presumption of "full BiS gear."

It is not silly at all:) By seeing what your character will look like in the end game, you can easily determine if they are lacking something you want. If they are lacking something you want, you can check to see if that can be fixed via a different distribution of starting stats, picking a different race to get their racial bonuses/items, changing your diety, etc.

Everquest is a long game, and many characters take years to complete. Doing a bit of planning in the beginning will save you a lot of grief later, if you care about maximizing your character.

[Noselacri]

We're talking about a server where only a tiny minority of players even get to raid at all, let alone obtain full Velious BiS. It just doesn't seem like something that ought to be featured that prominently in a discussion of the merits of each race. With NToV/ST gear in every slot, of course base stats don't matter in the slightest because you'll have 255 in all of the ones you care about. But that's relevant to almost nobody. You cannot profess to rate races on their stats when the foundation of your argument is "when you have the best item in the game in every equipment slot," under which circumstances all races max all of their relevant stats.

[Bardp1999]

Non-Barbarian shamans look like dog ass and are inferior to Barbarian shamans

[Noselacri]

If your dog's ass looks like an ogre, you need to call a veterinarian.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

We're talking about a server where only a tiny minority of players even get to raid at all, let alone obtain full Velious BiS. It just doesn't seem like something that ought to be featured that prominently in a discussion of the merits of each race. With NToV/ST gear in every slot, of course base stats don't matter in the slightest because you'll have 255 in all of the ones you care about. But that's relevant to almost nobody. You cannot profess to rate races on their stats when the foundation of your argument is "when you have the best item in the game in every equipment slot," under which circumstances all races max all of their relevant stats.

You are misunderstanding what I am doing. The idea is very simple, and you do this exercise in many games besides Everquest. The point of the exercise is not to assume you will get BiS gear. Character creation is the one thing you cannot ever change on this server, and some people want to make sure they make the best choices possible.

The reason why you look at your character with BiS gear is to determine if any race/class combination is missing stat points, even after getting all BiS gear. This knowledge is useful for people who want to minimize stat waste. Stat waste happens when your stat gets capped at 255. All stat points above that are useless. If you can figure out which stat doesn't get maxed even with BiS gear, you can choose to put points into that stat in the beginning to minimize waste.

If the conclusion is all races of that class can max out their stat points anyway, then you can instead focus on which racial bonuses, racial items, and diety items work best for your playstyle. In the case of a Shaman, you can easily max all of your stats, including wisdom. Therefore, your race/class combination should mostly be determined by which racial bonuses, racial items, and diety items you want to play with.

If you read my guide, you will see all of this covered:)

EDIT: Your assumption that BiS gear maxes all race/class combinations is not correct. https://wiki.project1999.com/Magelo_Blue:EruditeSKMan If you look at this fake SK I made with BiS gear, you will see that his INT is still not maxed, even as an Erudite with BiS gear. This is because Velious BiS gear for tanks has less focus on WIS/INT, and a lot more focus on STR/STA. This means if you want to minimize stat waste on an SK, you should dump points into INT. This is especially true since INT/WIS buffs give less stat points than the melee stat buffs.

[Philistine]

Hello everyone!

I have finished constructing a more complete breakdown of the racial benefits of each Shaman race, which can be found here:

https://wiki.project1999.com/Shamwowi%27s_Shaman_Race_Guide

I still plan on updating it and refining it, but this first pass is basically complete. Let me know what you think. I am hoping this can act as a more definitive guide for new Shamans when selecting their race, so they do not need to navigate the many "Which Shaman race is best" threads that have come before.

I'm definitely going to stay out of the Shaman race melee, but wanted to say thank you for putting this together! Whether or not I agree or disagree or anyone else agrees or disagrees with the conclusions reached, you clearly put a lot of time, effort, and thought into this and provide a ton of information to anyone interested in the topic. Thank you!

[DeathsSilkyMist]

I'm definitely going to stay out of the Shaman race melee, but wanted to say thank you for putting this together! Whether or not I agree or disagree or anyone else agrees or disagrees with the conclusions reached, you clearly put a lot of time, effort, and thought into this and provide a ton of information to anyone interested in the topic. Thank you!

Thank you for that!:)

[CheopisIV]

I love the toxic narcissism people playing this game exhibit not only in game but on the boards and presumably in life. I'm right, you're wrong so F-Off. It's absolutely useless as anything but entertainment but I do like being entertained so carry on (like you people would ever stop...).

I for one as a "never-before-and-now-practicing" Shaman appreciate the opinions and evidence outlined in the article. I'm always interested to see how people play their characters. Vids are great and I'm a bit of math/stats junky so it's all good.

Min/Max be damned, I can't stand the ogre model so I went Troll and love every minute of my play except the stuns while tanking, but I love my regen after taking some hits. Better or worse, it's all irrelevant and boils down to preference.

Thank you for putting up the guide.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

I love the toxic narcissism people playing this game exhibit not only in game but on the boards and presumably in life. I'm right, you're wrong so F-Off. It's absolutely useless as anything but entertainment but I do like being entertained so carry on (like you people would ever stop...).

I for one as a "never-before-and-now-practicing" Shaman appreciate the opinions and evidence outlined in the article. I'm always interested to see how people play their characters. Vids are great and I'm a bit of math/stats junky so it's all good.

Min/Max be damned, I can't stand the ogre model so I went Troll and love every minute of my play except the stuns while tanking, but I love my regen after taking some hits. Better or worse, it's all irrelevant and boils down to preference.

Thank you for putting up the guide.

Lol no problem, glad you liked it:) Trolls do look way better than Ogres, I can't deny that. They have the best animation set in the game to boot!

[Danth]

I think a lot of folks get hung up on the notion of "better." Better in this case doesn't mean X is 100 while Y is 60. It's more like X is 100, Y is 98, and Z is 97. Non-powergamers will look at the same data and regard them as effectively equivalent because this game is not that tightly tuned. Sham's guide is specifically geared toward the min-max mindset that seeks out that last couple per cent whether or not it's actually needed in practice. I think of it as a hobbyist mentality, building something for its own sake, not for any special reason beyond that.

Danth

[CheopisIV]

I think a lot of folks get hung up on the notion of "better." Better in this case doesn't mean X is 100 while Y is 60. It's more like X is 100, Y is 98, and Z is 97. Non-powergamers will look at the same data and regard them as effectively equivalent because this game is not that tightly tuned. Sham's guide is specifically geared toward the min-max mindset that seeks out that last couple per cent whether or not it's actually needed in practice. I think of it as a hobbyist mentality, building something for its own sake, not for any special reason beyond that.

Danth

Are you trying to say this is a game and not a way of life? Shame....

[Fammaden]

I have a 50 troll on green and a 55 iksar on blue. This by no means makes me a shaman expert, but I think the guide is pretty fair and informative. Don't really understand the anger at you.

My two big takeaways are that some people get really rubbed the wrong way by your posting style from another thread, and that some people really really really hate anyone saying that ogre has the slight edge over other races. But this topic seems like the most contentious issues on the boards historically, maybe only with charm pet power being close in controversy levels.

[busted]

some people really really really hate anyone saying that ogre has the slight edge over other races

I agree with this and chalk it up to buyers remorse (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buyer%27s_remorse)

If you've invested a significant amount of time in something, find out there is something slightly better (no stuns), you will have a heightened level of cognitive dissonance and attempt to justify your "purchase"

That said, shams are OP with torpor regardless of race. You do you

[Crede]

I agree with this and chalk it up to buyers remorse (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buyer%27s_remorse)

If you've invested a significant amount of time in something, find out there is something slightly better (no stuns), you will have a heightened level of cognitive dissonance and attempt to justify your "purchase"

That said, shams are OP with torpor regardless of race. You do you

Ogre FSI is useless to raiding ones. The best shaman race is based on what situation you’re encountering. Ogres are no doubt the best solo shaman at 60. Iksars are likely the best raiding shaman. But a lot of people tend to say troll is the best overall because you get the regen benefit for raids and also the snare clicky for solo play, as well as jbb. The debate will never end 😀

[CheopisIV]

What debate. Troll = All the win. ;)

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Ogre FSI is useless to raiding ones. The best shaman race is based on what situation you’re encountering. Ogres are no doubt the best solo shaman at 60. Iksars are likely the best raiding shaman. But a lot of people tend to say troll is the best overall because you get the regen benefit for raids and also the snare clicky for solo play, as well as jbb. The debate will never end ��

As I mention in my guide, FSI is not useless at all in raid situations. It could allow you to finish casting a slow while a mob is agroed on you. It also maximizes your chances of procing https://wiki.project1999.com/Di%60zok_Oracle_Shillelagh while a mob is agroed on you. This is useful any time you are needed to slow something, which is one of your primary jobs.

Troll/Iksar rengeration is useful in some AoE fights like Lord Feshlak. This is because his AoE can't be avoided. But it isn't really useful in raids past that. This is because most of the time in a raid you are Torporing out of danger. https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=HjZxMlJSCDc This video shows how quckly a Torpor Shaman can go from Low HP and Mana to full. In the 3 minutes 48 seconds of this video, a Troll/Iksar would only get around 300 HP, which is 1/4 or 1/5 of a Torpor. That extra regen would save you less than 30 seconds, which wouldn't matter at all in a raid. Or you are getting your face smashed in by a mob, which typically means death in a minute or less. A Troll/Iksar would get 80 HP at best during that minute, which isn't going to do much against a mob swinging for 500+ damage.

EDIT: As for the snare neck, I have a few videos on my channel showing how weak clinging darkness is, and honestly how rarely you need to use snare as a Shaman. If you do need snare on a rare situation, there are other items all Shaman races can use to cast snare. So the snare neck really isn't a big deal.

[Bluedarksun]

This is a wiki for a reason. Anyone can contribute. If you see something that is inaccurate or can be improved, don't ask that it be fixed--just improve it.

From the 7 pages that I wasted my time on, I think following this advice would settle most, if not all, of the mud slinging. Don't like the guide? Do your own. Simple.

It is a wiki for a reason you know. Happy Thanksgiving to all of you!

[Danth]

The debate will never end 😀

Indeed it won't, but I didn't regard this specific thread as the place for such debate. It's about Sham's guide, not my own differing opinions on the matter. I like the data Sham compiled and I understand where he's coming from in his assessments; his guide presents it in a clear and descriptive manner that should suit just about anyone. It's a pretty good guide by P99 wiki standards, even if I have a different notion of "best" because I weigh some factors differently than he does.

Danth

[CheopisIV]

I will advocate that the snare necklace is absolutely invaluable to my Troll Shammy solo playstyle; moreso in dungeons but relevant anywhere. It's mana free and I can snap it onto a mob at ~20-25% and keep him from bringing in any buddies. Sure, I could drop a nuke and just be done with him but I love the option not to. Smacking my victim with a slam as soon as he turns is usually enough that he doesn't move, but failing the 'Troll's Elbow' he doesn't go very far.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

I will advocate that the snare necklace is absolutely invaluable to my Troll Shammy solo playstyle; moreso in dungeons but relevant anywhere. It's mana free and I can snap it onto a mob at ~20-25% and keep him from bringing in any buddies. Sure, I could drop a nuke and just be done with him but I love the option not to. Smacking my victim with a slam as soon as he turns is usually enough that he doesn't move, but failing the 'Troll's Elbow' he doesn't go very far.

Yes, in my guide I mention that Pre-Torpor, Trolls ARE the best Shaman race. Pre-Torpor you need every mana saving device you can get. So I agree snare neck is more useful in the Pre-Torpor era, because you can use that instead of root in some cases. This will save you some mana per hour, and thus increase kill speed.

My point is that the Shaman playstyle doesn't need Clinging Darkness specifically in MOST cases. This is because you can just use root. When you get Torpor, the mana used for root is not going to make or break the fight in most cases. Since Clinging Darkness and root have the same chance to land from an MR resistance perspective, Clinging Darkness is a pretty bad spell overall, due to it's very short duration, and long cast time on the snare neck. You would be able to get the mob under control faster with a few roots as opposed to waiting on the snare neck to cast, and land successfully. Yes, you can pre-Clinging Darkness the mob when they are close to running away, but the short duration, long cast time, and same MR resistance chance make pre-Clinging Darkness tough to juggle along with everything else a Shaman needs to do. Shamans are very casting heavy classes, so adding one more thing to your list of things to cast is just not worth it in most cases.

The only time Clinging Darkness is useful Post-Torpor is the RARE case where you are fighting a pathing mob that gates, and you cannot fight said mob on it's spawn point. Other than that, root works just as well at keeping the mob in place. Torpor Shamans do a lot of tanking, since their mobility is limited while Torporing. If you can survive the mob for the first 80% of their HP, you can survive the remaining 20% by rooting the mob and finishing the job tanking, or sitting back and letting root hold them in place.

I would have a completely different opinion about the snare neck if it was a better spell, even the next spell in the Clinging Darkness line. This is because you could snare the mob well in advance of them starting to run, and you wouldn't really need to worry about snaring again. This is why https://wiki.project1999.com/Spear_of_Constriction and https://wiki.project1999.com/Ball_of_Burlap_Yarn are great additions to a Shaman's arsenal, for those rare occasions where you need it. The long duration on those snares make it much more useful. But both of those items are not race specific, so that is why snare neck loses a lot of value in addition to the points mentioned above. If you really need a quick snare in a dire situation, you can use https://wiki.project1999.com/Scepter_of_the_Forlorn , which is superior to the snare neck due to it's instant cast. Yes, it only has 10 charges, but in most cases a quick snare would be more of an "Oh Shit" moment than normal play.

[CheopisIV]

Nah, I'll take endless mana free clickies that don't expire over charges any day. Superior is all a matter of preference.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Nah, I'll take endless mana free clickies that don't expire over charges any day. Superior is all a matter of preference.

Once you get Torpor the way you play your Shaman changes significantly. It may not seem that way now, but things you thought were important become way less significant, like specific clickies (Snare Neck) and worn regeneration. I am just trying to prepare you for the change.

The reason why I cite charged clickies is because snare is such a rarely needed spell on a Shaman, especially with Torpor. I have 2x Balls of Burlap Yarn and 2x Scepters of the Forlorn, and I have yet to use them. Having a few for emergencies is more than enough for a long time.

[CheopisIV]

Once you get Torpor the way you play your Shaman changes significantly. It may not seem that way now, but things you thought were important become way less significant, like specific clickies (Snare Neck) and worn regeneration. I am just trying to prepare you for the change.

The reason why I cite charged clickies is because snare is such a rarely needed spell on a Shaman, especially with Torpor. I have 2x Balls of Burlap Yarn and 2x Scepters of the Forlorn, and I have yet to use them. Having a few for emergencies is more than enough for a long time.

I fully understand the min/max perspective, but it's irrelevant right now as I'm only lvl 51. Once I'm a 60 Torpor Shaman I fully expect life will change, but until then I'll rock the Fungi and Snare neck and love every minute of it. I've had the neck since lvl 15ish and have used it on and off since I could click it. It's a very valuable leveling tool even if it's useless in the end game.

[dallow2345]

wow just wow!

[DeathsSilkyMist]

I fully understand the min/max perspective, but it's irrelevant right now as I'm only lvl 51. Once I'm a 60 Torpor Shaman I fully expect life will change, but until then I'll rock the Fungi and Snare neck and love every minute of it. I've had the neck since lvl 15ish and have used it on and off since I could click it. It's a very valuable leveling tool even if it's useless in the end game.

Of course, I am not trying to ruin your fun:) I am just trying to help yourself and other people reading. You already have the race you want to play, so there is no reason to reroll, and I am not saying you should stop using the snare neck. Before you get Torpor, any mana saving device is awesome because it increases your kill speed. I made sure to get as many clickies as possible to save all the mana I could per hour before I got Torpor. I even got Shawl 7 around 52 for that Flowing Thought I.

My mana saving items before Torpor were:

https://wiki.project1999.com/Black_Fur_Boots - 80 Mana Per hour
https://wiki.project1999.com/Fungus_Covered_Scale_Tunic - ~4500 Mana Per Hour
https://wiki.project1999.com/Fungi_Covered_Great_Staff - 1200 Mana Per Hour
https://wiki.project1999.com/Runed_Coldain_Prayer_Shawl - 600 Mana Per Hour
https://wiki.project1999.com/Rune_Crafter%27s_Breastplate - 150 Mana Per Hour
https://wiki.project1999.com/Jaundiced_Bone_Gauntlets - 80 Mana Per Hour
https://wiki.project1999.com/Jaundiced_Bone_Boots - 80 Mana Per Hour
https://wiki.project1999.com/Jaundiced_Bone_Vambraces - 80 Mana Per Hour
https://wiki.project1999.com/Jaundiced_Bone_Helm - 80 Mana Per Hour
https://wiki.project1999.com/Jaundiced_Bone_Bracer - Depends. Easily over 3000 Mana Per Hour if you are fighting a good portion of that hour.
https://wiki.project1999.com/Torch_Of_Alna_Quest - Depends. At least one pet's worth of mana.

I would have considered getting:
https://wiki.project1999.com/Jaundiced_Bone_Breastplate to save 200 Mana Per Hour Shroud of the Spirits.

If Chardok 2.0 had come out, I probably would have picked up:
https://wiki.project1999.com/Di%60zok_Oracle_Shillelagh
https://wiki.project1999.com/Earring_of_Cleansing
https://wiki.project1999.com/Earring_of_Purity

Being able to save at least 10,000 mana per hour is crazy. That is the equivalent of meditating for 50 minutes straight at 20 mana per tick. With snare neck you could easily save at least 300-600 mana per hour on roots, which is the same as a Flowing Thought I item, always nice:)

https://wiki.project1999.com/Spear_of_Fate is obviously a big one too, but I mention this last because it is not as easy to come by these days unless you are in a raiding guild or can pay 100k or so.

[Tunabros]

This is a very good guide OP!

being going back and forth on it

contains some useful info

[Plumpys]

I give it 4.3 stars. I’d hit it and call again.

[busted]

Some additional video evidence that stuns can* be deadly:

https://youtu.be/WKsIYryPDfI?t=916

While the sham in the video did kill vilefang (super cool BTW), it got dicey at that one point due to resists + stuns.

*stuns can kill you but didn't happen in this video

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Some additional video evidence that stuns can* be deadly:

https://youtu.be/WKsIYryPDfI?t=916

While the sham in the video did kill vilefang (super cool BTW), it got dicey at that one point due to resists + stuns.

*stuns can kill you but didn't happen in this video

That is a great video! Never even thought about soloing Vilefang. That part you highlighted did get pretty dicey, he got under 20% HP. Glad to see he recovered lol, someone else would have taken Vilefang real fast. Thanks for sharing!

[Crede]

Some additional video evidence that stuns can* be deadly:

https://youtu.be/WKsIYryPDfI?t=916

While the sham in the video did kill vilefang (super cool BTW), it got dicey at that one point due to resists + stuns.

*stuns can kill you but didn't happen in this video

It’s hard to argue with how valuable FSI is for an ogre shaman at level 60. I think most would agree that in soloing big name situations, ogre is ideal because having some extra standing regen or a snare necklace click or 2 here and there might not really do anything. The grey area in the shaman race debate is the overall usefulness of the various racial advantages. Ogre is great for 60 torpor soloing, but not that great from 1-59 as well as whenever you’re not actively taking hits(which is the large majority of the time) unless you’re a solo only shaman. The overall usefulness of troll/iksar regen can be applied to basically any scenario vs situational stun immunity which to me is more in the ballpark of competing with other situational things such as as trolls snare necklace or troll/iksar undead fear necklace.

[cannobeers3]

Didn't read, and never really played a shaman. Troll is probably best choice here, despite it being completely stupid to play large races due to annoying sit animation.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Didn't read, and never really played a shaman. Troll is probably best choice here, despite it being completely stupid to play large races due to annoying sit animation.

You should probably read the guide first:) Also, Shamans don't sit that much, so that is a plus when it comes to minimizing how you feel about the sit animations!

[kjs86z]

12 pages to confirm:

ogre for ultimate end game solo

barb for fashion

iksar for RP / starting fresh with your static friend(s) necro / monk

troll for everything else

yikes

[CheopisIV]

Nope, going in circles as always ;)
Troll = Win. I question; how often does Stun really factor in end game? I might get stunned once or twice in a fight. Enough to change the tide of battle? Hmmm debatable.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Nope, going in circles as always ;)
Troll = Win. I question; how often does Stun really factor in end game? I might get stunned once or twice in a fight. Enough to change the tide of battle? Hmmm debatable.

How did you come to this conclusion? As I state at the top of my guide, no racial is going to give one Shaman an amazing edge over another. FSI is simply a more effective racial bonus, when paired with Torpor.

As a Troll, you get an extra 4800 HP per hour standing at best, assuming you are under 100% HP the entire time. Torpor Shamans rarely sit, only to change spells, or to get enough mana for the first Torpor when resurrected. With Torpor, you get 1200-1500 HP within 30 seconds (including casting time), depending on when the server tick lands. That means Trolls get 3-4 free Torpors per hour at best. This equates to saving 2 minutes per hour at best, assuming you are regenerating for the entire hour.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HjZxMlJSCDc This video shows me getting from low HP and Mana back to full within 3 minutes and 48 seconds. The reality is Torpor Shamans should always be at full HP and Mana when they are not in protracted combat, because Torpor/Cannibalize is just too good. This means you are not regenerating at all, and thus Troll Regeneration isn't working at all for a good portion of the hour. When you are in protracted combat, you don't get as much benefit from regeneration due to the relatively short duration of most fights.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uEgFcImQ9XU In this video you can see an example of a long Shaman fight. In the video's description, I detail all of the places where FSI could have prevented a stun. The video is 22 minutes long. That means a Troll would get an extra 1760 HP at best, which is basically 1.5 Torpors, assuming you do not hit the server tick. You would potentially shorten the fight by 45 seconds at best. FSI saves up to 48 seconds in this specific fight at best. In both cases, saving a little bit of time on a 22 minute fight doesn't really do anything for a Torpor Shaman, but as you can see FSI and Regeneration are basically tied in this regard.

The reason why FSI is better overall is because it can actually save your life in a situation where you need to land a spell as soon as possible. If you get a few resists and interrupts in a row, that could be deadly. FSI can prevent the interrupt from a stun, and thus you can land your spell sooner than a Troll. This usually happens near the beginning of the fight, when you need to land Malo, Slow, and maybe a Root. This part of a fight is usually the most dangerous. Troll Regeneration takes time to build up, which means it is useless in the beginning of the fight, when you would need it most. It can really only save you later on, if you get into the rare situation where an extra 100 or 200 HP is the difference between life and death. FSI can save you at any point in the fight, since it doesn't need time to build up.

Also, Snare Neck isn't really that great, due to it's long cast time, short duration, and terrible snare percentage. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4qGq5PZbMXc Here you can see how little Clinging Darkness actually slows down the mobs, and it doesn't stop them from moving until 15% health, instead of the usual 20%. Root works just fine in almost all cases where you need to stop a mob from running. With casting mobs, they tend to run out of mana by the time they get to 20% health anyway, so root doesn't really hurt you on that front. When it comes to gating mobs, you can just fight them on their spawn point. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qS3uoIHTu_c this video shows a great example of fighting a caster mob on it's spawn point, so it does not gate, and it also runs out of mana well before the 20% mark. Quite a few mobs in the game do not run, further reducing Clinging Darkness' efficacy. If there is ever a situation where you do need to use snare, https://wiki.project1999.com/Ball_of_Burlap_Yarn and https://wiki.project1999.com/Scepter_of_the_Forlorn work just fine. I have both of these items on my Shaman, and have yet to use them at any time, except in the videos I made on the subject.

If you go Cazic-Thule instead, the fear necklaces only work on Animals/Undead. They can be useful for interrupting Animal/Undead spell casters, but this is a fairly rare situation overall.

Finally, Trolls get a -20 to Fire Resistance, which is definitely not great.

[CheopisIV]

Just poking the bear a little. Not going to read the essay response ;)

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Just poking the bear a little. Not going to read the essay response ;)

Not really sure what your point is, then. You are making baseless claims, and cannot even be bothered to discuss them:) Why do you want to waste other peoples time?

[CheopisIV]

My point is this is a game, not a way of life or religion. People will have different opinions and that's just the way it is. I'm not wasting anybody's time, we're all wasting our own.

[Fammaden]

Iksar > barb for fashion. Prove me wrong.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

My point is this is a game, not a way of life or religion. People will have different opinions and that's just the way it is. I'm not wasting anybody's time, we're all wasting our own.

Nobody here has claimed that you cannot prefer Trolls over other races. Your preference is not a fact that proves Trolls are objectively better, however. Please just say it is you opinion, instead of looking like you want a discussion, or have your questions answered. That is wasting peoples time, because they take their time to respond to you, but you don't actually want a response. Your point that "this is just a game" was not clearly stated anywhere until this last post.

That philosophy of spending time is silly. People play games to relax, which is not a waste of time at all. Human beings are not machines, and cannot be productive for every waking second. Nor should they be.

Nobody said Everquest was a way of life, or a religion. The simple truth is all video games are based on concrete rules and maths. The races and classes were made asymmetrically, which means there is an objective best race/class combination for each class. Knowledge is power. It is good to know what the best is, and by how much. This is because Everquest is the type of game where most people only make one character per class. It takes too much time, money, and effort to make multiple levels 60s of the same class for specific purposes. There is no religious fervor here when I say Ogres are objectively the best. I am simply analyzing the facts and coming to a conclusion. I would be happy to be proven wrong if you can bring something to the table:)

[Crede]

Nobody here has claimed that you cannot prefer Trolls over other races. Your preference is not a fact that proves Trolls are objectively better, however. Please just say it is you opinion, instead of looking like you want a discussion, or have your questions answered. That is wasting peoples time, because they take their time to respond to you, but you don't actually want a response. Your point that "this is just a game" was not clearly stated anywhere until this last post.

That philosophy of spending time is silly. People play games to relax, which is not a waste of time at all. Human beings are not machines, and cannot be productive for every waking second. Nor should they be.

Nobody said Everquest was a way of life, or a religion. The simple truth is all video games are based on concrete rules and maths. There is an objective best race/class combination for each class. Knowledge is power, and it is good to know what the best is, and by how much. This is because Everquest is the type of game where most people only make one character per class. It takes too much time, money, and effort to make multiple levels 60s for specific purposes. There is no religious fervor here when I say Ogres are objectively the best. I am simply analyzing the facts and coming to a conclusion. I would be happy to be proven wrong if you can bring something to the table:)

These racial debates exist because there really is not an objective best race/class combination for every single class, especially shaman. There are a lot of grey areas, highly based on which situation you're in. Until you can prove that in every possible scenario an Ogre is superior, which clearly in your guide that's not the case, this debate will continue to go on. Unlike an iksar monk, or barbarian rogue, the shaman race debate will never end because of how diverse the racial advantages are.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

These racial debates exist because there really is not an objective best race/class combination for every single class, especially shaman. There are a lot of grey areas, highly based on which situation you're in. Until you can prove that in every possible scenario an Ogre is superior, which clearly in your guide that's not the case, this debate will continue to go on. Unlike an iksar monk, or barbarian rogue, the shaman race debate will never end because of how diverse the racial advantages are.

You do not need to prove a race/class combination is better in every possible scenario. Everquest is too long of a game for people to make 4 Torpor Shamans, one of each race, to cover every scenario. That means the "best" race/class combination is the one that wins in the majority of scenarios. I have never claimed other races cannot be better in specific scenarios, and my guide shows you where those scenarios occur:)

EDIT: Your argument falls flat when you claim Iksar Monks are objectively the best, because there are fringe cases where Human Monks are superior. Human monks have the best fist ratio, a smaller experience penalty, and better faction, for example. But Iksars are the "best" because they are better most of the time:)

[Crede]

You do not need to prove a race/class combination is better in every possible scenario. Everquest is too long of a game for people to make 4 Torpor Shamans, one of each race, to cover every scenario. That means the "best" race/class combination is the one that wins the the majority of scenarios. I have never claimed other races cannot be better in specific scenarios, and my guide shows you where those scenarios occur:)

I never said you claimed ogres are the best in all scenarios. I’m saying the fact that you can’t claim they are the best in all scenarios means there is no best shaman race. Your guide is great for highlighting the different scenarios and letting people decide which race is the best.

[Crede]

You do not need to prove a race/class combination is better in every possible scenario. Everquest is too long of a game for people to make 4 Torpor Shamans, one of each race, to cover every scenario. That means the "best" race/class combination is the one that wins in the majority of scenarios. I have never claimed other races cannot be better in specific scenarios, and my guide shows you where those scenarios occur:)

EDIT: Your argument falls flat when you claim Iksar Monks are objectively the best, because there are fringe cases where Human Monks are superior. Human monks have the best fist ratio, a smaller experience penalty, and better faction, for example. But Iksars are the "best" because they are better most of the time:)

Best means best at being able to perform the duties of your class in any given scenario. None of those human monk abilities have anything to do with being a better monk at the end state of velious. Those are all quality of life, and the fist delay is irrelevant in velious. You cannot say the same for shaman, hence the heavily debated topic and why your guide is an excellent summary of the shaman racial advantages but not an objective proof to the overall best shaman race.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

I never said you claimed ogres are the best in all scenarios. I’m saying the fact that you can’t claim they are the best in all scenarios means there is no best shaman race. Your guide is great for highlighting the different scenarios and letting people decide which race is the best.

That is silly. If your stance is the "best" race/class combination must be superior in every single scenario, there is no best race/class combination for any race or class. That is an extreme position to take, and every race/class combination can be superior to another in a specific scenario.

This obviously isn't your real stance either, because you seem to claim it is obvious an iksar monk is the best, when there are obvious cases where Human monks are superior. Human monks have better starting faction, a smaller xp penalty, and the best fist damage ratio. How can you claim Iksar Monks are obviously the best with these oustanding scenarios?:)

[Crede]

That is silly. If your stance is the "best" race/class combination must be superior in every single scenario, there is no best race/class combination for any race or class. That is an extreme position to take, and every race/class combination can be superior to another in a specific scenario.

This obviously isn't your real stance either, because you seem to claim it is obvious an iksar monk is the best, when there are obvious cases where Human monks are superior. Human monks have better starting faction, a smaller xp penalty, and the best fist damage ratio. How can you claim Iksar Monks are obviously the best with these oustanding scenarios?:)

See my previous post, you’re outlining human monk quality of life features, just like fashion, totally different discussion :)

[Danth]

You do gloss over duo/group content at level 60 somewhat, though perhaps not unfairly. How do I mean? Let's put it this way: If some shaman with a partner kills a named as a duo within the ~6 minute duration of Turgur's then you're looking at a maximum of maybe 500 HP of extra healing from racial regeneration that the shaman wouldn't otherwise have, and in real world practice rather less than that. Troll or iksar is inarguably "better" in such a case than an ogre who isn't being hit but the victory rings rather hollow. Sure you could add those types of disclaimers to your guide but why would you want to do that when it's long enough already? After all it's a wiki article, not a book.

I still regard troll as the min-max choice for general use, but not because I disagree with any of your data. I rather like the data, actually. Rather I weigh some factors differently. For example I place more emphasis on the reality that the majority of characters created on P1999 never make it to level 60 at all. That is a difference of priority, not of fact. I see your side of it too, hence why I've said several times in this thread that I like your guide regardless of that type of differing opinion.

Danth

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Best means best at being able to perform the duties of your class in any given scenario. None of those human monk abilities have anything to do with being a better monk at the end state of velious. Those are all quality of life, and the fist delay is irrelevant in velious. You cannot say the same for shaman, hence the heavily debated topic and why your guide is an excellent summary of the shaman racial advantages but not an objective proof to the overall best shaman race.

See my previous post, you’re outlining human monk quality of life features, just like fashion, totally different discussion :)

You keep moving the goal posts. In your previous posts you said "scenarios", and you did not specify what kind.

If your definition of "scenarios" is end game Velious content, you are shooting yourself in the foot. All racial bonuses become "quality of life" features when you are in a group or a raid dealing with end game Velious content. Again your argument goes back to the extreme position of "there is no best race", which is false. Any asymmetrical game has a best. I have never claimed the "best" is far ahead, but that doesn't mean it does not exist.

[Crede]

You keep moving the goal posts. In your previous posts you said "scenarios", and you did not specify what kind.

If your definition of "scenarios" is end game Velious content, you are shooting yourself in the foot. All racial bonuses become "quality of life" features when you are in a group or a raid dealing with end game Velious content. Again your argument goes back to the extreme position of "there is no best race", which is false. Any asymmetrical game has a best. I have never claimed the "best" is far ahead, but that doesn't mean it does not exist.

"Best" in the PvE sense is any scenario which makes you more effective at defeating an enemy either directly or from a support perspective. Racial bonuses like regen contributes to this in the end game, having a lesser experience penalty does not.

Edit: I never said there is no best race for any given class, I'm saying there is no best race for every single class from a min max end game velious perspective.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

"Best" in the PvE sense is any scenario which makes you more effective at defeating an enemy either directly or from a support perspective. Racial bonuses like regen contributes to this in the end game, having a lesser experience penalty does not.

Edit: I never said there is no best race for any given class, I'm saying there is no best race for every single class from a min max end game velious perspective.

Experience penalties do contribute to end game Velious content, because you need to keep level 60 to maintain optimal efficacy in PvE. Monks are a great example here. If you are a Monk that mostly Raids, you die a LOT. The 4% experience loss from resurrection adds up rather quickly, which means you need to go and get experience at some point to maintain your ability to raid. Human Monks can objectively spend more time raiding than Iksar Monks, because it takes them significantly less time to maintain level 60.

I disagree with your assessment that specific classes cannot have a best. Troll/Iksar Regeneration is actually the least useful on a Shaman anyway, because Shaman's have the best regenerative ability in the game out of the classes that Trolls/Iksars can be. An Ogre Shaman can Regenerate at 336 HP per tick (not including bard song). A Troll Shaman can Regenerate at 344 HP per tick. That is a difference of 2.5%. It really doesn't matter that much. Troll/Iksar regeneration is much more useful on a non-Shaman, because the difference between 34 and 42 is 19%, which is a much bigger ratio.

[Crede]

Experience penalties do contribute to end game Velious content, because you need to keep level 60 to maintain optimal efficacy in PvE. Monks are a great example here. If you are a Monk that mostly Raids, you die a LOT. The 4% experience loss from resurrection adds up rather quickly, which means you need to go and get experience at some point to maintain your ability to raid. Human Monks can objectively spend more time raiding than Iksar Monks, because it takes them significantly less time to maintain level 60.

I disagree with your assessment that specific classes cannot have a best. Troll/Iksar Regeneration is actually the least useful on a Shaman anyway, because Shaman's have the best regenerative ability in the game out of the classes that Trolls/Iksars can be. An Ogre Shaman can Regenerate at 336 HP per tick (not including bard song). A Troll Shaman can Regenerate at 344 HP per tick. That is a difference of 2.5%. It really doesn't matter that much. Troll/Iksar regeneration is much more useful on a non-Shaman, because the difference between 34 and 42 is 19%, which is a much bigger ratio.

Again, you're talking about quality of life here with your experience argument, having to xp less outside of raids, but there is still plenty of time to make up that xp penalty due to the limited amount of mobs we have on this server, and also in theory an iksar monk will die less :). This doesn't give humans the edge in any actual "best" scenario.

Perfectly fine that you disagree, you're just weighing in on your opinion of racial effectiveness in any scenario, same as Danth just did. I just think it's rather naïve to claim you have somehow solved this debate mathematically by summarizing your opinions of each situation a shaman could encounter, when there are plenty of things in life with mathematical foundations that will never be solved. I also think your claim dilutes the guide you have created, which I can appreciate the research and a lot more people may have read if you would have presented it more as that instead of some end all to the shaman racial debate.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Again, you're talking about quality of life here with your experience argument, having to xp less outside of raids, but there is still plenty of time to make up that xp penalty due to the limited amount of mobs we have on this server, and also in theory an iksar monk will die less :). This doesn't give humans the edge in any actual "best" scenario.

Perfectly fine that you disagree, you're just weighing in on your opinion of racial effectiveness in any scenario, same as Danth just did. I just think it's rather naïve to claim you have somehow solved this debate mathematically by summarizing your opinions of each situation a shaman could encounter, when there are plenty of things in life with mathematical foundations that will never be solved.

Every racial becomes "quality of life" if your definition of "scenario" is end game Velious content:) No racial is required or necessary for end game Velious content. So I am not sure where you are going with the "quality of life" debate. Racials are quite a boon in a plethora of "scenarios", but end game Velious content isn't one of them. That is why you see Human Warriors tanking AoW. They are not barred from tanking because they don't have FSI, which would objectively help in an AoW fight.

Racials are mostly beneficial in Solo/Duo situations, where having an edge can significantly increase your kill speed, and thus increase the rate at which you can experience or gain items. Once you get into group/raid situations, racials for the most part become useless.

It is not naive at all to use math and game examples, because video games are literally built on math and rules. They have a MUCH stricter set of outcomes than real life. That is why you cannot compare "real life" to "video games". The levels of complexity are nowhere close. The videos I show of my Shaman killing content can apply to almost all scenarios a Shaman will run into, barring some very specific fights.

Everquest is a fairly simple game, and Shamans are generally designed to fight a specific subset of content, namely single, hard targets. FSI gives you a bigger edge in those cases, because Troll/Iksar Regeneration is just too small of a bonus with Torpor to make a large difference. If you want to say "Troll Shamans are the best at farming Droga because Troll/Iksar Regeneration allows a Shaman to kill more easy mobs per hour", you would be correct, but I doubt most people make Torpor Shamans to farm Droga:)

That is what I mean by "best". Ogre is generally the best option due to FSI if you want to play a Shaman for their intended purpose. As I mention in my guide, if you do want to play your Shaman in a very specific way, there is a race for that. But that doesn't there cannot be a "best" race for the majority of players, and "normal" Shaman situations. By saying "no race is the best", you just confuse new players and make their starting choice more difficult. This is especially true when you can objectively verify which race is best, which I have been doing:)

You do gloss over duo/group content at level 60 somewhat, though perhaps not unfairly. How do I mean? Let's put it this way: If some shaman with a partner kills a named as a duo within the ~6 minute duration of Turgur's then you're looking at a maximum of maybe 500 HP of extra healing from racial regeneration that the shaman wouldn't otherwise have, and in real world practice rather less than that. Troll or iksar is inarguably "better" in such a case than an ogre who isn't being hit but the victory rings rather hollow. Sure you could add those types of disclaimers to your guide but why would you want to do that when it's long enough already? After all it's a wiki article, not a book.

I still regard troll as the min-max choice for general use, but not because I disagree with any of your data. I rather like the data, actually. Rather I weigh some factors differently. For example I place more emphasis on the reality that the majority of characters created on P1999 never make it to level 60 at all. That is a difference of priority, not of fact. I see your side of it too, hence why I've said several times in this thread that I like your guide regardless of that type of differing opinion.

Danth

Thanks again Danth:) I of course agree with your assessment that Trolls are the best leveling Shaman, and that most people do not make it to level 60. My main argument against that idea is I have seen a lot of people who think that they will not level a character to 60, but end up doing so. In my opinion, the mindset for making a new character should be that you will make it to level 60. Then, it is easier to make a decision like "I know Trolls won't have as much of an edge as Ogres at 60 with Torpor, but I am fine with that, because I want to level faster". That is much better than "Oh shit, I got to 60 and found out I wanted x y z that another race actually has".

[kjs86z]

a whole lot of words for:

ogre for end game solo

barb/iksar for fashion

troll for everything else

[DeathsSilkyMist]

a whole lot of words for:

ogre for end game solo

barb/iksar for fashion

troll for everything else

I agree lol. However, having a detailed debate is for people who disagree with statements this succinct. You cannot fight "Troll is the best!" with "Ogre is the best!". That ends up being very circular. Also, "troll for everything else" isn't really true, as FSI can still work quite well in group/raid situations. I think a better summary would be:

"Ogre for end game solo.

Barbarian for fashion and guild bots.

Iksar for being the least common shaman race (fashion and cool points).

Troll for the best solo/duo leveling experience."

EDIT: This is again why I rate Ogres the best. One of the most enticing factors to consider when rolling a Shaman is their ability to do well in all scenarios: Soloing, Duoing, Grouping, and Raiding. This flexibility means most people should ensure their solo capabilities are at peak performance, because Shamans already do very well in all scenarios. However, soloing is still the most challenging of these scenarios, because Shamans have a much harder time dealing with multiple mobs simultaneously. Having even one extra person playing with you increases a Shaman's capabilities by a large margin, including their ability to deal with multiple mobs.

This is why Trolls/Ogres are always at the top of the list. Trolls have the best solo capability Pre-Torpor, while Ogres have the best solo capability Post-Torpor. This is why Iksars are generally rated the worst, because Jaundiced Bone Bracer is a very important soloing tool. It is very useful Pre-Torpor when you are trying to reach level 60, and it can still be used effectively Post-Torpor. When it comes to the Diety Necklaces, they are good leveling tools, but lose a lot of efficacy once you get to 60 and acquire Torpor. I honestly wish the Innoruuk Necklace had a better snare, or there were high priority targets to use the Cazic Thule Necklaces on. That would actually give Shamans some ways to break the mold of their class restrictions, and make the racial debate more spicy.

[Gustoo]

Yep good thread all.

All the races are fine.

Ogres are the best
Barbarians are the best to be so you can be a human instead of a monster, and be not KOS in all the nice places.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

I also think your claim dilutes the guide you have created, which I can appreciate the research and a lot more people may have read if you would have presented it more as that instead of some end all to the shaman racial debate.

Thank you! The goal of this guide is to try and be an end all to the debate. I believe a lot of confusion on this subject has been generated over the years precisely because quite a few people have this odd idea that video games (or Everquest specifically) are somehow not quantifiable in objective terms. I am not aiming this comment at you to specifically single you out, it is just an observation I have had after years of playing the game and reading the forums. If there are a lot of people out there who do not want to read my guide because they do not believe the racial debate is quantifiable, that is a problem of understanding video games on their part, not a problem with me or my guide. It really isn't that difficult to quantify the benefits of Troll/Iksar Regeneration. Regeneration is simply adding two values together every 6 seconds. That can be predicted with 100% certainty, assuming no crazy bugs occur. I haven't seen any tick related bugs in the many years I have played on this server, so it isn't like you can exploit the tick to give you a large increase in Regeneration, unless you try cheating. The ability to get an extra tick's worth of damage or regeneration on certain spells isn't a bug per-se, it is simply a necessary consequence of how they needed to limit data transfer back in the days of 56k modems.

As a programmer myself, I can tell you that games, while complex, are not some miraculous machine that can spontaneously generate a plethora unexpected events (like real life). Yes, complex games can give rise to interesting bugs (unexpected events), but they are still well within the bounds of video games if you understand how they work. It isn't like Skynet will be born out of World of Warcraft. That is simply out of the bounds of the codebase's capabilities. Everquest overall is a very stable game, and the existing bugs or exploits have been VERY well documented and defined. A Shamans capabilities are strictly defined, as are the mechanics of the game. Unless you are cheating, it is very easy to find the limitations of a Shaman. If you watch my videos, the strategies employed in them are the primary methods of playing a Shaman. I am not saying people do not play differently, or cannot play differently. I am not trying to FORCE people to play in a specific way. The simple reality is games have classes because those classes are designed to be played in a specific way. This is why some classes can fear kite, for example, and others cannot. Of course you could play a Torpor Shaman without using Torpor and Cannibalize together. But I do not think most people would agree with that tactic, even though it could be done. They certainly wouldn't encourage other players to do so, and they wouldn't believe this suggestion is forcing people to play their way.

The idea here is to help people understand how a Shaman works, so they can use them correctly, and make the best decisions possible. If someone is knowledgeable enough to create a character for a very specific purpose or fight, they probably do not need my guide in the first place. For MOST people, they create a Shaman to play a Shaman in the "normal" way. That means there is a "best" race to accommodate the most common denominator of player. This is why I have a few different categories in my guide, to make sure people understand which race is best for which playstyle. The reason why the "overall best" Shaman race is the focus of the guide is because it is the most complex subject. Trolls automatically win the "best race while leveling" debate, so I don't really see a need to go very in depth on that part of the guide if someone doesn't think they will level to 60. It is the same thing with the "raid only" Shamans. That is honestly a minority of players, because one of the biggest draws of a Shaman is their soloing capabilities. Most "raid only" Shamans are bots to be honest.

[Gustoo]

Yes good guide. I suggest a less scary avatar picture yours reminds me of the dude from lexx that they put to sleep in a pod all the time.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Yes good guide. I suggest a less scary avatar picture yours reminds me of the dude from lexx that they put to sleep in a pod all the time.

Lol thanks. I agree a new Avatar is probably necessary, I just haven't thought of something better. That picture has been my avatar for many years. It is the Doomguy from Doom 3 with a smiley face, but he cannot smile very well due to the limited number of lip bones he has, and my poor animation skills at the time.

[XeroKill]

I stopped reading around page 11 because a very evident pattern made itself clear. If I may offer a small piece of criticism, DeathsSilkyMist... I think most people are actually frustrated by your posting style and attitude, rather than your information. To be blunt, you are relentless and egotistical. You respond to every single objection and in so many cases where you could simply accept the exchange for what it was, instead you double down, reiterate your point and you just won't let it go. I truly do not believe that anyone is arguing with your evidence or even your opinion at this point... they are arguing with you because of your ceaseless, holier-than-thou need to substantiate your findings and when coupled with your faux presentation of decorum, it really gets right in a person's craw. Mine included. I will tell you that I do not disagree with anything you have stated in terms of the actual debate and I find your arguments at least cogent and worthy of consideration... and yet I still find myself feeling compelled to argue with you after every post I read.

I mean absolutely no disrespect and I value very highly your contributions to this topic, but man... you really gotta learn when to let sleeping dogs lie. I also mean no injury or insult, even though it may seem otherwise. I mean this as sincere criticism. Please take a moment to reflect and be conscious of yourself. Read through your own posts and ask yourself, "Was that really necessary? Did that serve the truth or did it serve my own sense of right?" Count the number of times you say "My point" in this thread alone. That should set off some alarm bells.

Even if you are factually correct in the absolutely most technical sense, people have pointed out numerous mitigating factors that transcend it all, especially because the disparity is so trivial as to be barely worth mentioning. This is the part where you respond with "My point is that in a min/max..." just stop man. It doesn't matter. You presented your information, you argued your detractors, and you have added to the substance of the game and our knowledge. Now let the people absorb your information, let them offer their counters, and let the information do its job. You don't have to protect it. It is not YOU! YOU are not it!

My 2cp, for whatever that is worth to you. I won't weigh in on the argument itself because everyone has missed the only real argument and that is the Barbarian Female has the only set of tits worth looking at! End of debate!

[Penish]

Yikes. /thread

[DeathsSilkyMist]

I stopped reading around page 11 because a very evident pattern made itself clear. If I may offer a small piece of criticism, DeathsSilkyMist... I think most people are actually frustrated by your posting style and attitude, rather than your information. To be blunt, you are relentless and egotistical. You respond to every single objection and in so many cases where you could simply accept the exchange for what it was, instead you double down, reiterate your point and you just won't let it go. I truly do not believe that anyone is arguing with your evidence or even your opinion at this point... they are arguing with you because of your ceaseless, holier-than-thou need to substantiate your findings and when coupled with your faux presentation of decorum, it really gets right in a person's craw. Mine included. I will tell you that I do not disagree with anything you have stated in terms of the actual debate and I find your arguments at least cogent and worthy of consideration... and yet I still find myself feeling compelled to argue with you after every post I read.

I mean absolutely no disrespect and I value very highly your contributions to this topic, but man... you really gotta learn when to let sleeping dogs lie. I also mean no injury or insult, even though it may seem otherwise. I mean this as sincere criticism. Please take a moment to reflect and be conscious of yourself. Read through your own posts and ask yourself, "Was that really necessary? Did that serve the truth or did it serve my own sense of right?" Count the number of times you say "My point" in this thread alone. That should set off some alarm bells.

Even if you are factually correct in the absolutely most technical sense, people have pointed out numerous mitigating factors that transcend it all, especially because the disparity is so trivial as to be barely worth mentioning. This is the part where you respond with "My point is that in a min/max..." just stop man. It doesn't matter. You presented your information, you argued your detractors, and you have added to the substance of the game and our knowledge. Now let the people absorb your information, let them offer their counters, and let the information do its job. You don't have to protect it. It is not YOU! YOU are not it!

My 2cp, for whatever that is worth to you. I won't weigh in on the argument itself because everyone has missed the only real argument and that is the Barbarian Female has the only set of tits worth looking at! End of debate!

Thank you for the two cents, I appreciate your concern:) However, your long post fails to mention how people keep posting innacurate information. If I just let that go, someone reading may assume it is correct. I would rather be off-putting and helpful, instead of letting people spout nonsense, even if it makes me look bad. People read my guide to learn, not to mull over the finer points of my personality. I am flattered you care though!

[Plumpys]

Dude it’s a great guide. These other hacks are just embarrassed they wasted their time on some bullshit race.

[Crede]

Dude tries to give him advice, comes back with disputing evidence lol. Saw that coming a mile away.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Dude tries to give him advice, comes back with disputing evidence lol. Saw that coming a mile away.

Better than coming back with nonsense:)

[kjs86z]

a whole lot of words for:

ogre for end game solo

barb/iksar for fashion

troll for everything else

[XeroKill]

*snip* I appreciate your concern:) However, your long post fails to mention how people keep posting innacurate information. If I just let that go, someone reading may assume it is correct. *snip*

The irony is palpable.

[Plumpys]

The dude put some work in giving different scenarios and which race prospers the most in each. I would expect him to defend it when most replies have been about fashion or other troll like behavior. Balar’s postings seem personal. Even his response in the other post about how FSI doesn’t stop interrupts only stuns. Well when you’re stunned, you get interrupted so that input is mute.

Dude contributed to some useful information and supplied why/how. What’s your beef man? And with reading your post, I’ll say nice vocabulary. Given how you wrote it, that seems to be the main thing you were trying to have the readers get out of it.

[XeroKill]

The dude put some work in giving different scenarios and which class prospers the most in each. I would expect him to defend it when most replies have been about fashion or other troll like behavior. Balar’s postings seem personal. Even his response in the other post about how FSI doesn’t stop interrupts only stuns. Well when you’re stunned, you get interrupted so that input is mute.

Dude contributed to some useful information and supplied why/how. What’s your beef man? And with reading your post, I’ll say nice vocabulary. Given how you wrote it, that seems to be the main thing you were trying to have the readers get out of it.

Be fair at least. I have absolutely no beef with him as a person or his information. I was trying to help him understand the animosity. I did not dispute his information and I completely agree that he has contributed a significant work to the community. I made it a point to say as much. I was trying to help him understand that the resistance he is experiencing has nothing to do with the issue of Shaman race selection even if all the words on the page say otherwise. It is very much his dogmatic defense of his position and the false sincerity he exudes in his responses. I can see someone wanting to defend their work but at some point, after all the arguments have been made, restated, reiterated and then said again in a different way... you just have to let it go.

I can't speak to the issue with Baler, and I agree that it seems that at some point their disagreement became personal for both of them, even if DeathsSilkyMist won't admit it on his part. At least Baler's sincerity cannot be questioned because he doesn't equivocate.

As for my vocabulary... I mean, that is just how I think, speak and type. I make no apologies for my elocution. I think your need to bring it up says more about you than my choice of verbiage says about me. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

So, at the risk of running afoul of my own advice, I bid this thread and its participants good day.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

The irony is palpable.

Except it isn't, because you have done nothing to prove I have posted incorrect information. I would be happy to correct any mistake, if you can do more than simply claim it is a mistake. Your claim means nothing without evidence:)

The dude put some work in giving different scenarios and which race prospers the most in each. I would expect him to defend it when most replies have been about fashion or other troll like behavior. Balar’s postings seem personal. Even his response in the other post about how FSI doesn’t stop interrupts only stuns. Well when you’re stunned, you get interrupted so that input is mute.

Dude contributed to some useful information and supplied why/how. What’s your beef man? And with reading your post, I’ll say nice vocabulary. Given how you wrote it, that seems to be the main thing you were trying to have the readers get out of it.

Thank you for the support, and the understanding! In regards to Baler, he simply is too biased in his opinion to admit he is wrong. I have asked him repeatedly to prove the claims he has made, but he has yet to do so. I sincerely wish he can make good with proof on those claims, as I love to learn new things.

Be fair at least. I have absolutely no beef with him as a person or his information. I was trying to help him understand the animosity. I did not dispute his information and I completely agree that he has contributed a significant work to the community. I made it a point to say as much. I was trying to help him understand that the resistance he is experiencing has nothing to do with the issue of Shaman race selection even if all the words on the page say otherwise. It is very much his dogmatic defense of his position and the false sincerity he exudes in his responses. I can see someone wanting to defend their work but at some point, after all the arguments have been made, restated, reiterated and then said again in a different way... you just have to let it go.

I can't speak to the issue with Baler, and I agree that it seems that at some point their disagreement became personal for both of them, even if DeathsSilkyMist won't admit it on his part. At least Baler's sincerity cannot be questioned because he doesn't equivocate.

As for my vocabulary... I mean, that is just how I think, speak and type. I make no apologies for my elocution. I think your need to bring it up says more about you than my choice of verbiage says about me. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

So, at the risk of running afoul of my own advice, I bid this thread and its participants good day.

I understand where you are coming from, and I am not offended at all. On the contrary, I was sincere when I said I appreciate the concern. I will say it again, my guide is here so people can get to the facts quickly. For some strange reason, a lot of people on P99 make this discussion about Shaman race mystical in some fashion, when it really is not. I do not support those kinds of mystical arguments, and I will not sit by and let them undermine the facts. This guide is not here for people to study my personality, it is here so people can learn without sifting through pages of nonsense. It is not my fault people keep trying to troll this thread or post nonsense in the hopes that it will undermine what I have shown. If you want to disprove something in my guide, bring the evidence:)

a whole lot of words for:

ogre for end game solo

barb/iksar for fashion

troll for everything else

This really isn't the full picture. Trolls are not the best raid only Shaman, or the best guild bot, for example.

[kjs86z]

This really isn't the full picture. Trolls are not the best raid only Shaman, or the best guild bot, for example.

Except it is 100% the full picture, complete and entirely accurate.

Its borderline nuts how you'll argue every little thing down to the most insignificant detail. Its 2021. No one cares.

I'm sorry you're hurt that I was able to summarize your painfully long-winded essay and endless nit-picky responses into 3 lines and 13 words.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Except it is 100% the full picture, complete and entirely accurate.

Its borderline nuts how you'll argue every little thing down to the most insignificant detail. Its 2021. No one cares.

I'm sorry you're hurt that I was able to summarize your painfully long-winded essay and endless nit-picky responses into 3 lines and 13 words.

I am not hurt at all, and you are factually incorrect:) Next time put a bit more effort into your lazily written summary, so people can get the correct information.

Nobody cares about your opinion on what is significant to you. People want the objectice facts, so they can make up their own mind on what is significant to their playstyle.

[Crede]

I am not hurt at all, and you are factually incorrect:) Next time put a bit more effort into your lazily written summary, so people can get the correct information.

Nobody cares about your opinion on what is significant to you. People want the objectice facts, so they can make up their own mind on what is significant to their playstyle.

But your facts aren’t objective, lol! Your guide just explains scenarios a shaman can encounter, then you state whether or not you think a particular racial is useful and then you tally up the results. This is 100% subjective. If you made a poll of every one of those scenarios and asked people to vote, you’d get vastly different results.

For instance I happen to feel that FSI is overall useless on raids in normal situations. We’re it that useful, people would be making a lot more ogres for raid purposes. Shamans aren’t getting focused down left and right trying to slow stuff, it’s rarely useful. And you even admitted iksars were the best raiding shaman. I actually wonder if you flipped that one to useful after thinking oh shit iksars won in my tally system.

With that one change of opinion in that scenario, that actually gives iksars the most points. So by your tally logic they are the best shaman now.

Please stop spreading your opinions as facts. Nobody needs to provide this new and improved secret counter evidence against ogres. One just simply needs to look at your guide and tally up the scenarios themselves and decide which works best for them. A good scenario calculator your guide is, objective truth it is not.

[isoka]

A good scenario calculator your guide is, objective truth it is not.

/clap

[DeathsSilkyMist]

But your facts aren’t objective, lol! Your guide just explains scenarios a shaman can encounter, then you state whether or not you think a particular racial is useful and then you tally up the results. This is 100% subjective. If you made a poll of every one of those scenarios and asked people to vote, you’d get vastly different results.

For instance I happen to feel that FSI is overall useless on raids in normal situations. We’re it that useful, people would be making a lot more ogres for raid purposes. Shamans aren’t getting focused down left and right trying to slow stuff, it’s rarely useful. And you even admitted iksars were the best raiding shaman. I actually wonder if you flipped that one to useful after thinking oh shit iksars won in my tally system.

With that one change of opinion in that scenario, that actually gives iksars the most points. So by your tally logic they are the best shaman now.

Please stop spreading your opinions as facts. Nobody needs to provide this new and improved secret counter evidence against ogres. One just simply needs to look at your guide and tally up the scenarios themselves and decide which works best for them. A good scenario calculator your guide is, objective truth it is not.

You clearly do not understand the definitions of subjectiive and objective. Troll regeneration, for example, is 100% factually quantifiable, as are it's applications in the game. Your opinion on it's utility does not change the actual utility you get from it.

If you think FSI is useless in raids, you are factually incorrect. It is useful, but I never claimed it was game breaking or necessary.

Yes, i did say Iksars are the best raiding Shaman. But you fail to grasp the basic idea that most people do not build Shamans to exclusively raid. If they did, my guide would read differently:) Best race simply means the race that works best for most people. I specifically mention the best races for other scenarios so other people get those facts too.

EDIT: To your point on my tally system, you are 100% correct that it is flawed right now. I havent figured out the best way to rank a tally point. Right now, all tallies are equal, but that is not correct. Iksars only win the tally because they get more stuff than other races. But getting more stuff does not mean they are better overall.

[Bondrake]

Lol. Absolutely pathetic. Actually taking time to write and argue about the guide being too long, bad, etc. It just shows how many people are so unhappy with their sad pathetic lives that they need to take their anger and frustration out on other people trying to help. How about you take a look at the guide he wrote and if you think it's shit or something else that's in your constant negative filled mind, stop reading it and move on.

[Crede]

You clearly do not understand the definitions of subjectiive and objective. Troll regeneration, for example, is 100% factually quantifiable, as are it's applications in the game. Your opinion on it's utility does not change the actual utility you get from it.

If you think FSI is useless in raids, you are factually incorrect. It is useful, but I never claimed it was game breaking or necessary.

Yes, i did say Iksars are the best raiding Shaman. But you fail to grasp the basic idea that most people do not build Shamans to exclusively raid. If they did, my guide would read differently:) Best race simply means the race that works best for most people. I specifically mention the best races for other scenarios so other people get those facts too.

You love to spin others words in your favor and claim they don’t know basic things like objective and subjective :confused:. I never claimed FSI is useless in raids. I just used your normal raid scenario in your guide which i feel it is useless for. I do agree it is useful in rare raid situations, not normal raid situations. Regen is factually quantifiable yes, and so are it’s applications but in each scenario you note it’s application but the subjectivity comes in when you say whether it’s useful or useless. This is your opinion, as others can easily come to their own conclusions on these as well.

It’s also funny that the iksar tally was equal to the ogre tally in your guide but you gave ogres the edge due to having a jbb over iksar regen/ac/fear necklace. You could ask a thousand people whether or not they’d take jbb over these iksar benefits, you’d get different results. Jbb has some uses at 60 but it’s mostly a 46-52 fun clicky item. And I wouldn’t be surprised If there’s math to support the uselessness of jbb over your regular shaman spell set at 60 for faster kills, but there’s no need to get into that.

Again, you provided a great “racial scenario calculator”, well done!

Edit: thank you for admitting your tally system is flawed! I look forward to seeing the revisions!

[DeathsSilkyMist]

You love to spin others words in your favor and claim they don’t know basic things like objective and subjective :confused:. I never claimed FSI is useless in raids. I just used your normal raid scenario in your guide which i feel it is useless for. I do agree it is useful in rare raid situations, not normal raid situations. Regen is factually quantifiable yes, and so are it’s applications but in each scenario you note it’s application but the subjectivity comes in when you say whether it’s useful or useless. This is your opinion, as others can easily come to their own conclusions on these as well.

It’s also funny that the iksar tally was equal to the ogre tally in your guide but you gave ogres the edge due to having a jbb over iksar regen/ac/fear necklace. You could ask a thousand people whether or not they’d take jbb over these iksar benefits, you’d get different results. Jbb has some uses at 60 but it’s mostly a 46-52 fun clicky item. And I wouldn’t be surprised If there’s math to support the uselessness of jbb over your regular shaman spell set at 60 for faster kills, but there’s no need to get into that.

Again, you provided a great “racial scenario calculator”, well done!

Edit: thank you for admitting your tally system is flawed! I look forward to seeing the revisions!

I usually admit when I am wrong though:) That simply tends to get lost in the sea of baseless accusations I can easily rebut, due to a lack of evidence.

It seems to me you havent played a Shaman, if you think JBB is only a leveling toy. It is still quite useful at 60. The resoning is very simple: You cannot buy or generate spell slots. JBB gives you one of your best Direct Damage spells for free, without a spell gem. This is WAY more valuable than a bit of damage mitigation, because Shamans already have one of the best damage mitigation systems in the game with Torpor and a 75% slow. See my Cliff Golems video for an example on how you can use JBB to do damage to a mob, while not staying on the top of their hate list. This allows your pet to tank summoning mobs, saving you WAY more HP than an Iksar would: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=umuVBewCNgY

Also, I am not spinning your words at all. You said my guide is 100% subjective, when I literally have the undeniable math formula for Troll/Iksar Regeneration that never changes. So you are again factually incorrect on that point. You either do not understand what subjective and objective mean, or you are over generalizing to an absolute extreme.

[Sinbillibnis]

I usually admit when I am wrong though:) That simply tends to get lost in the sea of baseless accusations I can easily rebut, due to a lack of evidence.

It seems to me you havent played a Shaman, if you think JBB is only a leveling toy. It is still quite useful at 60. The resoning is very simple: You cannot buy or generate spell slots. JBB gives you one of your best Direct Damage spells for free, without a spell gem. This is WAY more valuable than a bit of damage mitigation, because Shamans already have one of the best damage mitigation systems in the game with Torpor and a 75% slow. See my Cliff Golems video for an example on how you can use JBB to do damage to a mob, while not staying on the top of their hate list. This allows your pet to tank summoning mobs, saving you WAY more HP than an Iksar would: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=umuVBewCNgY

I appreciate the time and effort you've put into both your guide and this conversation, as well as the passion you have for the class and game. I don't agree with a couple of comments here. Throughout this thread you have been defensive and counter argued whenever someone has a different opinion than yours. I'm not here to say you're wrong, but to assume someone hasn't played a shaman bc they have a different opinion of you is a bit narcissistic, a pattern you've shown throughout your responses

And while a very minor topic, I believe it's a stretch to indicate a jbb is a quite useful at 60, I'd agree it's more of a toy once you have torpor, pox and bane. Regarding your example, you can keep pox and bane rolling on a cliff golem without having agro the full time. Agro management between you and your pet on these types of mobs is heavily influenced by resists. If it's take 4+ casts to land slow, your pet is unlikely to pull agro throughout.

And if you're allowing your pet to hold agro the full time, sure you're saving your hit points, but only because you're extending the fight by restricting your damage output. What's the point? Can you do it that way, sure, it's a game, play it however you want. But if you're min/maxing and trying to minimize the dmg you take, you're doing so by minimizing your threat output, which to an extent means you're limiting your damage output or at least not maximizing your capabilities. If you're not using the item to maximize your capabilities, doesn't that mean it's more of an item for fun than need?

It's a fun item, I leaned on it heavily from 45 until 60, I loved my jbb and keep one just for fun. If I'm at a difficult camp or fighting a tough mob, 8 seconds to land a jbb is never going to be a priority over my other options.

I know you've put in far more time and done more as a shaman that I have, but i have been playing a shaman for a few years, so I like to think I at least have a fair opinion on the class. .

Sorry for any typos, on my phone and not taking the time to edit.

[Crede]

I usually admit when I am wrong though:) That simply tends to get lost in the sea of baseless accusations I can easily rebut, due to a lack of evidence.

It seems to me you havent played a Shaman, if you think JBB is only a leveling toy. It is still quite useful at 60. The resoning is very simple: You cannot buy or generate spell slots. JBB gives you one of your best Direct Damage spells for free, without a spell gem. This is WAY more valuable than a bit of damage mitigation, because Shamans already have one of the best damage mitigation systems in the game with Torpor and a 75% slow. See my Cliff Golems video for an example on how you can use JBB to do damage to a mob, while not staying on the top of their hate list. This allows your pet to tank summoning mobs, saving you WAY more HP than an Iksar would: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=umuVBewCNgY


You're giving JBB superiority in this situation because of the safety net it's giving you when fighting a cliff golem :). That's subjective. Better for you might mean safer, better for someone else might mean just face tanking a golem w/ pox/bane and not bothering with the measly JBB dps to get it killed faster as the previous poster mentioned. Again, just your opinion against another's :)

I look forward to this tally weight revision though in your guide! If I like it I might ask you to create an SK racial guide, another hot topic!

[DeathsSilkyMist]

I appreciate the time and effort you've put into both your guide and this conversation, as well as the passion you have for the class and game. I don't agree with a couple of comments here. Throughout this thread you have been defensive and counter argued whenever someone has a different opinion than yours. I'm not here to say you're wrong, but to assume someone hasn't played a shaman bc they have a different opinion of you is a bit narcissistic, a pattern you've shown throughout your responses

And while a very minor topic, I believe it's a stretch to indicate a jbb is a quite useful at 60, I'd agree it's more of a toy once you have torpor, pox and bane. Regarding your example, you can keep pox and bane rolling on a cliff golem without having agro the full time. Agro management between you and your pet on these types of mobs is heavily influenced by resists. If it's take 4+ casts to land slow, your pet is unlikely to pull agro throughout.

And if you're allowing your pet to hold agro the full time, sure you're saving your hit points, but only because you're extending the fight by restricting your damage output. What's the point? Can you do it that way, sure, it's a game, play it however you want. But if you're min/maxing and trying to minimize the dmg you take, you're doing so by minimizing your threat output, which to an extent means you're limiting your damage output or at least not maximizing your capabilities. If you're not using the item to maximize your capabilities, doesn't that mean it's more of an item for fun than need?

It's a fun item, I leaned on it heavily from 45 until 60, I loved my jbb and keep one just for fun. If I'm at a difficult camp or fighting a tough mob, 8 seconds to land a jbb is never going to be a priority over my other options.

I know you've put in far more time and done more as a shaman that I have, but i have been playing a shaman for a few years, so I like to think I at least have a fair opinion on the class. .

Sorry for any typos, on my phone and not taking the time to edit.

Maybe I wasn't clear, and I do assume you read the guide before you post. No racial bonus or item is necessary. The idea is to factually determine which is more useful, even if the end result is none are necessary, which is the case. This is still useful information for some people, who want to get the most out of their character. I would rather have all the facts on the table, so people can make the most informed decision possible.

The simple truth is 8 extra regen per tick and a bit of extra AC is very marginal damage reduction for a Shaman. This is because most difficult mobs a Shaman fights will either kill you quickly if they remain unslowed, or you have an extreme amount of damage mitigation due to the mob being slowed, plus having Torpor. This means the Iksar/Troll damage mitigation bonuses are almost moot. Gaining a free spell slot is impossible in this game, so JBB is the superior item overall because of that, especially considering the barely noticeable damage mitigation gains.

Being able to have a pet tank a summoning mob, as shown in the video, is a better source of damage mitigation, because you are not getting interrupted at critical moments in the fight. This means you have a much easier time controlling the fight. Disease and Poison spells have very high threat generation, so you would need to stagger the casts quite a bit to take this approach without JBB. JBB allows you to do damage during that downtime, while generating less threat. Is it a necessary strategy? Of course not. But having a JBB gives you more options and strategies, where extra damage mitigation does next to nothing most of the time. Can damage mitigation be superior in specific cases? Of course. Again, the question is which gives you the best bang for your buck, not can it ever be useful.

[Sinbillibnis]

You're giving JBB superiority in this situation because of the safety net it's giving you when fighting a cliff golem :). That's subjective. Better for you might mean safer, better for someone else might mean just face tanking a golem w/ pox/bane and not bothering with the measly JBB dps to get it killed faster as the previous poster mentioned. Again, just your opinion against another's :)

I look forward to this tally weight revision though in your guide! If I like it I might ask you to create an SK racial guide, another hot topic!


I would add if casting jbb delays reapplying bane, pox, or epic the jbb may not be adding incremental damage. Between resists, the short duration of bane, and fairly high mana cost, reslow resists, etc I don't find myself with 8 seconds available to cast jbb regularly through fights with high level mobs. And if you do, you're certainly pulling agro off your pet. Pet tanking even without jbb is finicky as torpor's slow reduces the pet's threat. You're bound to get agro intermittently due to the pet losing threat bc of slows and increased agro due to resists

I can certainly see your point, I just believe it's very subjective. A lot of what's discussed in the guide and this thread is subjective. Sharing your opinion helps others learn and is badass. I know I've learned quite a bit from these forums, including your guide.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

I would add if casting jbb delays reapplying bane, pox, or epic the jbb may not be adding incremental damage. Between resists, the short duration of bane, and fairly high mana cost, reslow resists, etc I don't find myself with 8 seconds available to cast jbb regularly through fights with high level mobs. And if you do, you're certainly pulling agro off your pet. Pet tanking even without jbb is finicky as torpor's slow reduces the pet's threat. You're bound to get agro intermittently due to the pet losing threat bc of slows and increased agro due to resists

I can certainly see your point, I just believe it's very subjective. A lot of what's discussed in the guide and this thread is subjective. Sharing your opinion helps others learn and is badass. I know I've learned quite a bit from these forums, including your guide.

I agree, sharing information is great! The problem is most of the time, people just regurgitate false information and do not back it up. I am not saying you are. On the contrary, I appreciate the response:) I just want the information to remain clear, and a lot of people keep trying to muddy it up. I would love to see examples of Iksar AC and Regen doing something amazing, for example, but unfortunately those bonuses are the easiest to quntify, but somehow subject to the most tall tales:)

[XeroKill]

Lol. Absolutely pathetic. Actually taking time to write and argue about the guide being too long, bad, etc. It just shows how many people are so unhappy with their sad pathetic lives that they need to take their anger and frustration out on other people trying to help. How about you take a look at the guide he wrote and if you think it's shit or something else that's in your constant negative filled mind, stop reading it and move on.

I love it when people can't see their own hypocrisy.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

I love it when people can't see their own hypocrisy.

I don't think you fully understand what hypocrisy is, but you do love to throw the term around:) What he posted is not hypocritical at all.

[XeroKill]

That is why I highlighted the hypocrisy. It makes it easier for the simpletons to follow along. Do let me spell it out for you though:

hy·poc·ri·sy
/həˈpäkrəsē/

Hypocrisy is the practice of engaging in the same behavior or activity for which one criticizes another.

Who is the bigger loser? The one that takes the time out of his day to speak critically of you or your guide, or the one who takes the time out of his day to do the same to the ones that spoke critically of you or your guide?

Not sure why you claim that I "throw the term around" since it is the first time I have used it in this conversation... Where is your evidence, sir!? Then again, you do love the sound of your own keyboard so you had to find something... ANYTHING to say.

Let no post go unchallenged!

[DeathsSilkyMist]

That is why I highlighted the hypocrisy. It makes it easier for the simpletons to follow along. Do let me spell it out for you though:

hy·poc·ri·sy
/həˈpäkrəsē/

Hypocrisy is the practice of engaging in the same behavior or activity for which one criticizes another.

Who is the bigger loser? The one that takes the time out of his day to speak critically of you or your guide, or the one who takes the time out of his day to do the same to the ones that spoke critically of you or your guide?

Not sure why you claim that I "throw the term around" since it is the first time I have used it in this conversation... Where is your evidence, sir!? Then again, you do love the sound of your own keyboard so you had to find something... ANYTHING to say.

Let no post go unchallenged!

I do apologize, it was irony you used incorrectly earlier. The reason why it isn't hypocritical is because you are assuming he read my guide, thought it was bad, and then posted a negative comment about it. None of what he said implies any of that, you just assumed it to make an off topic point. I never called anyone a loser or implied that, I am just pointing out the flaw in your argument so you can learn for next time.

I don't mind if people point out flaws in my guide. I want you to! The problem is people seem to assume that if they point something out, their point is correct. That is not true, and I usually have the evidence to disprove their claim. If you read through this thread, you will see where I was corrected and fixed things.

[Penish]

Overinvested and sick, welcome to p99. lol

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Overinvested and sick, welcome to p99. lol

Why bother posting this?

[TheBardo]

I started a guide similar to this but scrapped it because I'm not qualified to share my "opinion" on what's "best". And neither are you.

Don't spread false information on the wiki. You're extremely bias in favor of ogres and your bias shines through on that wiki page. Which means you're not contributing general non-bias information.

I'm serious this isn't cool. I try to promote the wiki and you should feel bad that I dislike what you're doing. Spreading 1 sides bias information is dangerous. You've been hot on trying to force your opinion on people that ogre is the best shm race. You need to chill out with that and start exploring other races instead of shitting on them for not being ogre.

I'm literally disgusted you took it this far. I've never felt this sick in relation to the wiki.

lolllllllllllllll

[Frug]

'm literally disgusted you took it this far. I've never felt this sick in relation to the wiki.

This says much more about you than the wiki.

[Heywood]

a lot of people butthurt because they picked the wrong race.


Ogre is by far the best race for shaman. Don't need the wiki or 18 pages of people crying to tell you that.

[Snortles Chortles]

LOL'D