Can Warriors make good DPS instead of Tanks?

[Loadsamoney]

Given that they have Dual Wield, Double Attack, Kick, Bash (and Slam if you're playing a large race) and Crits, can a Warrior be played as a DPS class instead of a Tanking class if they focus on damage stats like Str, Dex, Haste, and the right clickies and procs, instead of HP/AC?

[Baler]

Warrior dps is pretty good, Not rogue or wizard but better than sk,pal,rng 9/10
With the proper weapons and gear ofc.

The problem with rolling a warrior as DPS is that you'll inevitably get lumped in as a tank. A warrior only geared for DPS isn't a tank and will fail in that role. Which will cause your guild to be unhappy with you.
Rolling a warrior and telling everyone, oh no guys I'm a DPS I can't tank. It's not a good look. If you want to play a dps warrior, play wow. js

[Loadsamoney]

Warrior dps is pretty good, Not rogue or wizard but better than sk,pal,rng 9/10
With the proper weapons and gear ofc.

The problem with rolling a warrior as DPS is that you'll inevitably get lumped in as a tank. A warrior only geared for DPS isn't a tank and will fail in that role. Which will cause your guild to be unhappy with you.
Rolling a warrior and telling everyone, oh no guys I'm a DPS I can't tank. It's not a good look. If you want to play a dps warrior, play wow. js

Ideally I'd have two sets of gear, one for Tanking and one for DPS.

Or possibly several, depending on how important it is to have pure resist gear in raids.

I'd think that Warrior DPS is at least comparable to a Monks. Flying Kick can't outperform regular Kick and Crits/Crippling Blows by that big of a margin.

[valenwood]

If we're talking about "Chardok 2.0 WAR at level 60" vs. "Chardok 2.0 MNK at level 60" I would tend to agree with you. Some problems we have about proving this:

-There doesn't appear to be a lot of public information on critical hits here on p99
*How often do they occur at what DEX? (i.e. does it occur at 5% at 75 DEX etc. etc.)
*What is the amount of damage they do?
-There is not a lot of public information on Crippling Blows
*What is the amount of damage they do?
-There is not a lot of public information on Monk Triple Attack
*How often does it occur?
-How does a Warrior reliably keep their HP down?
(Think "Dwarven Rock Cake+Dharoks" in OSRS)
*Manastone in Old World does the job fairly well
*Having no food in inventory puts a stop to your personal HP regen (even as iksar/troll) when your character is (hungry?)
*Group Healers in general are terrible and will constantly just auto-heal you if they see you at 40% hp even after telling them multiple times not to heal you (+them acknowledging that they are going to keep you between 25-40% hp)
*Groups like having Bards in group running a healing song. Are you really going to sit there and click it off every ~6 seconds?
-No Damage Numbers on Kick, Slam or Flying Kick on the Wiki

I have personally seen my Crippling Blow damage be equal to more than 10x the weapon damage of my Gatorsmash Maul.

Let's not forget that a fully decked out Warrior will have much more HP, and much more mitigation AC versus a similarly geared Monk.

On the green server with 149 kick, my level 50 Warriors kick damage is 1-13, leaning very much towards 8 damage. My slam damage is 1-16, leaning very much again towards 8. However, I hit so many slams above 8 that I would guess the average would be closer to 10. This is with a small sample size of ~100 slams and 55 kicks. A Monk's flying kick damage is (I believe) 70-140. Any level 50 monks on green feel free to chip in some damage numbers on your flying kick damage.

There is one passive mechanic that Monks (allegedly) have at level 60 called "Triple Attack". It turns a (small) % of their double attacks into a 3 hit instead of a 2 hit. Again, little to no public information.

Public information to me is the Wiki. If it isn't on the wiki, it might as well not exist to the general population of P99. This is pretty much a fact.

[elwing]

Warriors won't be top dps, but they definitely do more than respectable dps, way more than a knight can do... On lots of groups, if you have a knight and a warriors, it's way more efficient to have the knight tank and the warrior dps

[Jimjam]

A lot of tank gear has str, and warriors tend to gear dex anyway for their procs. With that in mind I don’t believe the opportunity cost of carry capacity sacrificed isn’t really worth the pay off of carrying a second suit.

An extra weapon that doesn’t draw so much aggro isn’t a bad idea though. It’s fun to play a warrior kept in low health berserker mode, especially in the 50s once disciplines come in to being. Either scoring a few huge hits with fell strike, crip spamming with mighty blow or simply using the slower burning faster reuse options.

Generally in early era Everquest +stats don’t make a huge difference compared to skills and levels. No matter how much str/dex you stack a warrior’s kick won’t fly.

[Guesty07]

I'd love to see a group of 5 warriors and a healer. Things would probably just...... die.

[fastboy21]

Warriors aren't bad dps. If the player is geared and not afk they are fine...plus you get a backup tank.

If you get really excited keep the warrior DPSing at low health for the crips. These can be shockingly big numbers with a 2h weapon and high str.

[Loadsamoney]

Wait, Monks have Triple Attack? What!?

[Pint]

Didn't warriors alrdy have triple attack before monks

[Jimjam]

Wait, Monks have Triple Attack? What!?

Warriors and monks get it at 60. Warriors get it earlier in the patch timeline too if you’re playing on a season server.

[Loadsamoney]

Warriors and monks get it at 60. Warriors get it earlier in the patch timeline too if you’re playing on a season server.

I may just have to make an Ogre Warrior at some point once I can fully twink one out. I'd definitely want access to Shrink for an Ogre though.

I like Monk gameplay, but I hate that they have to be so weight conscious and basically can't loot anything, especially when playing solo.

[Sabin76]

Just ask a mage to summon some for you. I'm always glad to help out monks in my group with them (currently running around Sol A where those damn juicy bricks are like 15 weight each). I wouldn't mind doing the same for any monk outside my group, too, as long as they are not trying to get me to cross a zone to them for it.

[Snaggles]

All the dps melees (Including Rangers) with ntov or other god loot can push well past the casual level of dps. Monks and Rogues are just MUCH easier to get to a high level with cheap droppable weapons and easy epics.

The prob with a DPS warrior is supply. If you have two in a group that’s great. Even without aggro dumping skills they are fine to soak up damage. It’s just rare to find two in a group. It’s hard enough just to find one tank if you include pallies and sk’s. Filling a group with dps pet classes rangers, monks, and rogues is damn easy.

On a raid normal warriors do good dps but under monks and rogues. Great one push the envelope much higher. Again though...not with seb croaking dirks and guard capt mallets though.

[Loadsamoney]

All the dps melees (Including Rangers) with ntov or other god loot can push well past the casual level of dps. Monks and Rogues are just MUCH easier to get to a high level with cheap droppable weapons and easy epics.

The prob with a DPS warrior is supply. If you have two in a group that’s great. Even without aggro dumping skills they are fine to soak up damage. It’s just rare to find two in a group. It’s hard enough just to find one tank if you include pallies and sk’s. Filling a group with dps pet classes rangers, monks, and rogues is damn easy.

On a raid normal warriors do good dps but under monks and rogues. Great one push the envelope much higher. Again though...not with seb croaking dirks and guard capt mallets though.

I was under the impression that Knights and Warriors are fairly common classes, and that DPS like Monks, Rogues, and pet classes like Necros and Magicians are much rarer.

[Snaggles]

I was under the impression that Knights and Warriors are fairly common classes, and that DPS like Monks, Rogues, and pet classes like Necros and Magicians are much rarer.

I’d do a /w all search next time you are online. While many are anon and /roleplay on the list of classes sk’s and pallies are FAR more rare. I’d guess monks - rogues - warriors - rangers - sk’s - pally (least).

My point is there are 6 dps classes and that doesn’t include ench’s with pets. Finding a goofball to take the hits is harder. At least one with the stats as intended by the game devs.

[Loadsamoney]

If I make ask, what does a Warrior need to be able to effectively and efficiently solo.

And how does an unfunded Warrior with no gear solo and survive without any assistance whatsoever (I.E buffs from another player)?

[Jimjam]

Bandages, a decent weapon and low con single blues. Even the most basic gear will let you mitigate damage well enough for your battle bandage macro to keep up. Then you just want a choppy weapon in primary.

Sometimes it helps to keep a factioned green around (or a factioned mob around the corner) to stop runners. Lowest levels a polished granite tomahawk improves survivability nicely. I used axe of the slayers from 30, but better options are available. The vehement sword (of someone, can't remember the full name) is handy at 45, but not much longer.

[Loadsamoney]

Bandages, a decent weapon and low con single blues. Even the most basic gear will let you mitigate damage well enough for your battle bandage macro to keep up. Then you just want a choppy weapon in primary.

Sometimes it helps to keep a factioned green around (or a factioned mob around the corner) to stop runners. Lowest levels a polished granite tomahawk improves survivability nicely. I used axe of the slayers from 30, but better options are available. The vehement sword (of someone, can't remember the full name) is handy at 45, but not much longer.

You can bandage in combat? That's pretty nifty actually, especially if you can keep your HP just below the 40% mark but not let it fall into the danger zone.

I would think that, once the Warrior gets some good clickies, like Invigorate, they can be a lot more self sufficient. Especially if they have some way to cast or proc Root.

[Sabin76]

You can bandage in combat?

Yes, but...

https://www.project1999.com/forums/showthread.php?t=334262

[Loadsamoney]

Yes, but...

https://www.project1999.com/forums/showthread.php?t=334262

So you can't then, it gets interrupted the second you get hit.

[Jimjam]

Target self, bandage, /stand, target enemy re-engage auto attack. I've been bringing attention to it for a few years now, its very not classic, hopefully change happening soon.

Best done in a corner to reduce chance of being interrupted through movement.

[Loadsamoney]

That's why I love Pallies. When things get rough, they can just root the mob, back off and heal up with spells. And in a dire emergency they have Lay Hands. Pallies are much better at soloing than people give them credit for. Slow, yes, but very self sufficient.

When things get rough for a Warrior, their only option apparently is to run, or die.

I'd never want to tank bosses as a Pally either, I'd be happy serving as an off-tank for trash and a secondary/tertiary healer to assist the Cleric or Shaman.

[Snaggles]

This post is a bit of a moving target now but yea, warriors can solo. Without decent gear it’s very tough (and the downtime is horrible). I got a gnome warrior with a fungi and a reaver to 56 in HK and grobb mostly. Mostly for something new to try.

Without the budget I’d go monk or a knight. At 51 the monk can bind wound to 70% and a 38/40 2hb is like 4k.

[Loadsamoney]

Why do almost all Ogre Warriors dump everything into Dex instead of Sta? I know their Sta is already obscenely high, but Sta is the hardest stat to cap as there's only one buff for it, so I would think it's still the optimal choice to dump points in, with maybe 5 going to Dex to avoid any penalties.

[Adron]

ogre warriors go dex on creation because warrior gear has craploads of stamina on it at engame. it will get maxed.
and...you need that dex badly to get the procs to proc, so that all those dps'ers can start damaging the raid target without stealing aggro. dex also = more crits, which doesn't suck as an added bonus.

[kaizersoze]

get str buffs, go berserk, do mad DPS w crippling blows.

[Grimstrike]

Check out that crippling blows post where that dwarf war hit for 1700+. That sounds like the damage from a wizzy nuke.

[Allishia]

Yes war can be awesome dps, nothing like before precision nerf though (topped many vindi parses like 160 dps) but still decent. I just swap to aura of battle items and get low hp (duel a rogue and let them beat you up). Win eq /nod :p

[unleashedd]

dps warrior gnome only - other races dont get that sweet haste from tinkering. stacks with worn and other cast haste

[Dogma]

Warriors can't decrease their aggro like other dps classes. On raid targets that's especially tricky. Few things are more embarrassing than being a warrior who dies before the main tank does on a raid target because he pulled aggro.

I usually shoot for about 60 dps on raid targets if I'm not tanking. You want to be lower than the "speedbumps" which usually float around 80 dps. And obviously don't use a weapon with a high aggro proc.

That means a lot of toggling attack on and off. Attack on and use kick/slam then wait til kick/slam is back up. When it's up, use it again then turn your attack off. Wait until it's back up to turn attack on again. Helps keep you lower on threat and provides you a timer to keep your dps lower.

Also note that if you miss a bunch of times it doesn't mean you didn't increase your aggro any. "White threat" is gained just by swinging your weapon, regardless of hits/damage and misses.

In general, when in a typical group situation it's fine to aim at being just a dps. In a guild though people are always going to eyeroll the warriors who just want to dps. It's kind of intimidating being a young warrior and expected to tank all these raid mobs when you have very little gear. Usually guilds will put you pretty low on the tank list but you should still be expected to tank every once in a while. If you step forward and offer to ramp tank Vindi or something (which is pretty easy to do even with basic gear) then it's more likely they'll be cool with you not main tanking bigger stuff.

[Naethyn]

Years of melee parsing end game Velious content with primal avatar has shown this average:

Rogue (135 dps) > Warrior (110 dps) > Ranger/Monk (85 dps) > Paladin (50 dps) > Shadowknight (45 dps)

The main take away is that monks, while considered a dps class by many, are in fact not very good dps - even with the very best gear. Warriors are the clear second for melee dps.

[Kich867]

Years of melee parsing end game Velious content with primal avatar has shown this average:

Rogue (135 dps) > Warrior (110 dps) > Ranger/Monk (85 dps) > Paladin (50 dps) > Shadowknight (45 dps)

The main take away is that monks, while considered a dps class by many, are in fact not very good dps - even with the very best gear. Warriors are the clear second for melee dps.

I'm surprised to see Shadowknights at 45dps, but I suppose that makes sense because they can't quite fully dps a raid target.

The monk thing is surprising though, I have to imagine the difference comes down to warrior crits. I'm not sure what the crit% is for a high end warrior, I'm guessing around ~6%? For all intents and purposes crits are like having an extra high damage proc on your weapon.

But I also thought monks got like triple attack and flying kick? Doesn't flying kick start hitting twice, and it can hit upwards of like 200+ damage? Thats still really wild to me.

[aaezil]

Ironically you will do more damage than most everyone else as a tank just stack a few beefy damage shields

[Keebz]

Years of melee parsing end game Velious content with primal avatar has shown this average:

Rogue (135 dps) > Warrior (110 dps) > Ranger/Monk (85 dps) > Paladin (50 dps) > Shadowknight (45 dps)

The main take away is that monks, while considered a dps class by many, are in fact not very good dps - even with the very best gear. Warriors are the clear second for melee dps.

Is this Pre or Post chardok 2.0? I've heard SK/Pal is closer to 60dps these days.

...But I also thought monks got like triple attack...

Warriors get triple attack.

[Kich867]

Warriors get triple attack.

Oh, neat, the wiki never mentioned that.

[Adron]

Years of melee parsing end game Velious content with primal avatar has shown this average:

Rogue (135 dps) > Warrior (110 dps) > Ranger/Monk (85 dps) > Paladin (50 dps) > Shadowknight (45 dps)

The main take away is that monks, while considered a dps class by many, are in fact not very good dps - even with the very best gear. Warriors are the clear second for melee dps.


Alright, i'm stumped. how's a paladin 10% better dps than a shadowknight? Weapon choices that much better? SK has pet (ok, what's that worth, 2-5% of dps?), damage spells, same skill caps on weapons, harm touch. Ogre race choice for stun immune, prob not worth much.

[Snaggles]

dps warrior gnome only - other races dont get that sweet haste from tinkering. stacks with worn and other cast haste

Nope. 40% spell, stacks with item and v2 bard. Rolling cheap alacrity is great tho :)

Gloves/boots (str/dex) do stack with all.

[elwing]

Naethyn has some issues with sks... Sk have 5 more offense points, uses the same weapons as paladin and have offensive spells and proc, with similar gear sk can only be higher dps(but quite similar) than paladin, not the other way round... I parse around 55-60 depending on the raid targets personally...

[Snaggles]

Naethyn has some issues with sks... Sk have 5 more offense points, uses the same weapons as paladin and have offensive spells and proc, with similar gear sk can only be higher dps(but quite similar) than paladin, not the other way round... I parse around 55-60 depending on the raid targets personally...

Yaulp4 adds like 40 attack and 40 str. Uncapped it’s 80 attack plus some AC for 1 mana. Basically faux-Avatar.

I don’t disagree SK’s do more dps than Paladins (No basis to argue), especially with a pet and casting dots on the pull. Still, do you have raid figures with competitively geared Paladins? I know they have 225 vs 215 (sk) in piercing which is odd given so many good SK pokers out there.

Edit: Going to have to check that again with capped STR. I could just be delusional.

[elwing]

SK/paladin have the same offensive skills except that:
- paladin gets 15 more piercing.
- sk gets 5 more offense.
So unlike that sk is dumb and uses piercer, it will output more raw damage in raid, without taking in account the offensive spells that even add more to it.

[Naethyn]

SK pets aren’t used on endgame Velious content and dots don’t land. There are outliers for every class. What I said above is an average and by far SKs show up at the bottom of the parse more often than not.

My personal opinion on SKs is the skill gap between “good” SKs and “bad” SKs is wider than any class. The best ones are some of the best players but most are complete trash.

[elwing]

True on dot, true on pet, not true on lifetaps while some mobs are nearly immune, a lot of velious end raid mob are not and that add some neat damage

[Jimjam]

SK pets aren’t used on endgame Velious content and dots don’t land. There are outliers for every class. What I said above is an average and by far SKs show up at the bottom of the parse more often than not.

My personal opinion on SKs is the skill gap between “good” SKs and “bad” SKs is wider than any class. The best ones are some of the best players but most are complete trash.

Diseze clowd goze brrrr!

[Chardy]

DPS war: Proc avatar, equip NToV 2h, pop precision....profit

[Snaggles]

Did some Yaulp4 testing. Couldn’t cap str because I’m a scrub but:

989 attack with 157str
1005 attack with 175str (DW legs)

That’s like a .88 attack/str bonus. Not great

Yaulp4 adds 40 str, AC and some attack...

215 str and 1083 attack

So my rough math is for pure attack it adds 42.5 raw attack which stacks with everything. Basically an extra call of the predator.

While divine might won’t land on targets that the SK Vamp Embrace line will I don’t see how that’s adding more than a few dps, max. If you can land Shroud of Hate prior to the raid target I see them being pretty close.

What am I missing? Besides the 5 offensive skill? Drain Soul and Boiling Blood on raid targets?

[Loadsamoney]

So Warriors with their epic will use Blade of Strategy but not Blade of Tactics?

[Naethyn]

Blade of Tactics adds 60 attack power. 30 directly on the weapon and 30 from the worn buff. While this is likely a bug its not one that anyone likes to talk about because it is so awesome.

https://imgur.com/ABqaNXj.jpg

The problem with dw for dps is the amount of aggro generated and the way the crippling blow mechanic works. Triple damage (crippling blows), along with triple attack, along with precision makes ToV 2h weapons superior to any dw combo. That said, when procing avatar, or not below 40% hp, or using a knight tank dw is a great set up.

As for the OP, berserk warriors care greatly about HP. Most dps fights I'll duel a rogue and get to 30% hp. When wearing all of the AOB items, ring10, etc its quite hard to stay below the berserk threshold. The more total HP one has the longer you can stay berserk.

[Adron]

So if you want to be a standard meatshield warrior:

1) HP HP HP.
2)dual wield with procs for agg

IF you want to be a DPS Warrior
1) try to cripp blow all the time, which is much easier with...HP HP HP
2) best ratio 2h


Seems like the hard part, creation and gearing, is same for all wars, then just a matter of what's in your backpacks, situationally.

Also, if paladins are getting STR out of yaulp because they're not already maxed, then SK may have them out DPS'd with an ogre/troll anyways. that seems like a wash, considering grim aura also gives the SK a little attack to counter yaulp.
and SK's should be proccing lifetaps for 50 via their level 55 spell, right? Mathematically I can't see how this works out for Pallies to have any DPS advantage.

[Naethyn]

There are elements to melee dps that are not just based on skills, attack power, innate abilities, and weapons. If that was the case monks should be doing way more dps than rangers, but they aren't. Shadowknights are the clear loser from years of parsing.

[Snaggles]

Mathematically I can't see how this works out for Pallies to have any DPS advantage.

Sorry to be the annoying pally here. Totally not related to warriors which are awesome, won’t disagree there :)

First capping Str is easy for melee on a raid. Focus or Maniacal Strength + Focus will do it easy. A Y4 at 40 Strength and you only need like 150 unbuffed. Easy.

Second while Y4 won’t stack with Grim Aura or Major Shielding it stacks with everthing else. By my math Grim Aura is 10 attk and Y4 is 42 attk (capped Str).

What’s 32 attack on raid targets? A third of avatar. A big deal.

[Adron]

Sorry to be the annoying pally here. Totally not related to warriors which are awesome, won’t disagree there :)

First capping Str is easy for melee on a raid. Focus or Maniacal Strength + Focus will do it easy. A Y4 at 40 Strength and you only need like 150 unbuffed. Easy.

Second while Y4 won’t stack with Grim Aura or Major Shielding it stacks with everthing else. By my math Grim Aura is 10 attk and Y4 is 42 attk (capped Str).

What’s 32 attack on raid targets? A third of avatar. A big deal.


If capping str is easy on a raid, the str on Yaulp4 is useless. count both the SK and Pal as str maxed, and then yaulp4 is worth 17 ATK and 15 AC, which i was just sayin was about the same as grim aura for DPS (grim aura is 10 ATK). A wash for dps, does not describe the DPS discrepancy quoted by the gentleman earlier.

Recap: str - capped both for Pal and SK unless real noobs.
ATR - within a few points, either way (5 offense to SK, slight yaulp advantage over grim aura for pal)
weapons - about same
Spells - lifetaps are all that are going to land when raid DPS is being calculated, small SK advantage (the proc form mostly, dont think casting them will really be a good substitution for swinging)
Specials (LOH vs harm touch) - slight SK avantage
Pet - zero very slight adv SK

If those rankings were accurate, then the Pal numbers can only be from superior level or superior playskill, but not mathematically from the game stats that i can come up with. I'm trying to learn, not suggesting i actually know squat about endgame aside from forum lurking and wiki.

[Snaggles]

The wiki is wrong. Surprised?

Like I said...
989 attack with 157str
1005 attack with 175str (DW leggy, Spirit Strenth)
1083 attack with 215 str (Yaulp4)

[elwing]

Taps adds an easy 10 dps that does not appear on your parse narshe... Beats any benefit that y4 might add... And tbh, I am wondering if the y4 cast time worth the atk on a 4tick buff... It's only 17atk vs...
And yes, I am talking raid there, so max str, max dex, avatar, cotp...

[Loadsamoney]

How does Strength affect your damage output in melee? I would assume it's only a small increase because I never see anyone recommending to gear for Strength on classes like Bards, Rangers, Knights, even Warriors.

[Naethyn]

Strength increases attack, and attack increases your average damage over time.

[Loadsamoney]

Strength increases attack, and attack increases your average damage over time.

Wow, and here I thought Attack raised your accuracy, aka your chance to hit.

[elwing]

Strength massively increase damage... The reason no one counsel to put str points is that most melee gear has +str, if you add fos, str buff and possibly avatar, there's no way not to be str capped...

[Kich867]

Wow, and here I thought Attack raised your accuracy, aka your chance to hit.

I would need some evidence to suggest that attack increases your damage. Strength and weapon skill are the only two things I've ever seen increase damage. Offense, for instance, raises your attack rating but does not increase your damage.

I have a weapon I still need to raise, maybe I'll explore this more tonight.

[Freakish]

Your weapon has a damage interval that it has a chance to hit in with each hit. Higher attack skews your average hit higher in that damage interval.

You won't be hitting harder, you'll just be hitting higher more often which increases your damage per second.

[Kich867]

Your weapon has a damage interval that it has a chance to hit in with each hit. Higher attack skews your average hit higher in that damage interval.

You won't be hitting harder, you'll just be hitting higher more often which increases your damage per second.

Gotcha, I think I misread the previous statement in that I thought he was suggesting that attack raises your damage done. This makes more sense.

[Dolalin]

My 60 war with the old Precision disc was consistently top 10 dps on raid targets in Velious when I wasn't tanking. However this disc has changed now and I suspect it isn't as Uber as it used to be.

[Grimstrike]

Hey Kich, did you setup logging and GamParse? You can track DPS this way and it might be cool to add to your stream if you are working on raising a weapon type.

[Kich867]

Hey Kich, did you setup logging and GamParse? You can track DPS this way and it might be cool to add to your stream if you are working on raising a weapon type.

I have not, unfortunately at level 43 I've hit a slight wall. There's not many great things to solo at 43, all of my options look like just grinding through green mobs and I'm not sure I have it in me to sit there for like 10+ hours every level :( . There doesn't seem to be many level 32-33 mobs near a zoneline that I have access to.

Trying to decide if I want to keep it going, drop the solo aspect, or start a new character.

[Robersonroger38]

saw a warrior with sow pots kiting with runedoak bow around this lvl. He made sure to keep his health in berserk mode to wear would get crippling blows here and there, A little more work , but solo folks are already used to work ��

[Kich867]

saw a warrior with sow pots kiting with runedoak bow around this lvl. He made sure to keep his health in berserk mode to wear would get crippling blows here and there, A little more work , but solo folks are already used to work ��

It's getting a little off-topic but, a core tenet of what I'm doing with the character is not trading with people and only using gear I find, craft, or quest for.

So unfortunately sow pots are out. Runed Oak Bow I could probably camp though. The issue isn't so much that I can't kill things, I just wanted to find something that was still blue that wasn't unreasonable for me to try.

Once I can get to level 45 or so I think level 35 guards will be ideal, I'm worried they're just a tad strong right now. Maybe I'll try them out though if I can find a solo pull. I've thought about trying Sol A gnomes but I'm concerned that any runner that I can't quite put down could potentially cause a train and its not easy to get out of there. Every zone I've looked at just feels kinda bad.

[Grimstrike]

It's getting a little off-topic but, a core tenet of what I'm doing with the character is not trading with people and only using gear I find, craft, or quest for.

So unfortunately sow pots are out. Runed Oak Bow I could probably camp though. The issue isn't so much that I can't kill things, I just wanted to find something that was still blue that wasn't unreasonable for me to try.

Once I can get to level 45 or so I think level 35 guards will be ideal, I'm worried they're just a tad strong right now. Maybe I'll try them out though if I can find a solo pull. I've thought about trying Sol A gnomes but I'm concerned that any runner that I can't quite put down could potentially cause a train and its not easy to get out of there. Every zone I've looked at just feels kinda bad.

in WK maybe? You smashed guards before solo.
Guard McCluskey lvl 36 Guard Donlan lvl 30 two static spawns but at night the wander (makes for a good time to split). They drop swords worth plat and a Guard Bracelet. Turn the bracelets into Capt Linarius in NK for XP and sell-able loot. The quest makes this kill good way past the level range of the lower guard. Increases good guard faction lowers evil Qeynos faction.

[Loadsamoney]

Years of melee parsing end game Velious content with primal avatar has shown this average:

Rogue (135 dps) > Warrior (110 dps) > Ranger/Monk (85 dps) > Paladin (50 dps) > Shadowknight (45 dps)

The main take away is that monks, while considered a dps class by many, are in fact not very good dps - even with the very best gear. Warriors are the clear second for melee dps.

Outside of tracking then, what value does a Ranger bring to a raid situation if their DPS is only middle of the road?

Ranger is one of my favorite classes and I plan to reroll one eventually. They get Dual Wield, Double Attack and Kick, and two okay DoT's late game as well (Drones of Doom and Immolate), and the fact that their DPS can match a Monk's is surprising to me, but they still fall short of a Warrior, a class that's seemingly meant more for Tanking than it is for damage output.

Does a Rangers Kick eventually get the ability to stun and interrupt spells like a Warriors?

[Kich867]

Outside of tracking then, what value does a Ranger bring to a raid situation if their DPS is only middle of the road?

Ranger is one of my favorite classes and I plan to reroll one eventually. They get Dual Wield, Double Attack and Kick, and two okay DoT's late game as well (Drones of Doom and Immolate), and the fact that their DPS can match a Monk's is surprising to me, but they still fall short of a Warrior, a class that's seemingly meant more for Tanking than it is for damage output.

Does a Rangers Kick eventually get the ability to stun and interrupt spells like a Warriors?

Honestly given that raids aren't player capped, playing a non-raid-ideal class isn't a huge huge deal. I played a druid when I raided, I still participated in every raid.

[Keebz]

Once I can get to level 45 or so I think level 35 guards will be ideal, I'm worried they're just a tad strong right now. Maybe I'll try them out though if I can find a solo pull. I've thought about trying Sol A gnomes but I'm concerned that any runner that I can't quite put down could potentially cause a train and its not easy to get out of there. Every zone I've looked at just feels kinda bad.

There's a bunch of single guard spawns in Steamfont. Might also be some doable guard spawns in HHK, though those may have greened out by 43. I did Sol A a bit and it's good when it works, but is a little dicey at times. Probably not worth risking for strictly solo play.

[Snaggles]

Outside of tracking then, what value does a Ranger bring to a raid situation if their DPS is only middle of the road?

Ranger is one of my favorite classes and I plan to reroll one eventually. They get Dual Wield, Double Attack and Kick, and two okay DoT's late game as well (Drones of Doom and Immolate), and the fact that their DPS can match a Monk's is surprising to me, but they still fall short of a Warrior, a class that's seemingly meant more for Tanking than it is for damage output.

Does a Rangers Kick eventually get the ability to stun and interrupt spells like a Warriors?

Solid attack buffs (CoP and SoN is like 65attk)
Decent DPS
Harmony
Thorns on tanks (often druids and mages don’t do this).
Kick doesn’t interrupt spells

Without the best gear, casual stuff rangers are still usually 20-30% under casual monks and Up to 50% under casual rogues.

Still, anything helps. Make friends with an enchanter and help them stay alive when the pet breaks.

[Naethyn]

Outside of tracking then, what value does a Ranger bring to a raid situation if their DPS is only middle of the road?

Ranger is one of my favorite classes and I plan to reroll one eventually. They get Dual Wield, Double Attack and Kick, and two okay DoT's late game as well (Drones of Doom and Immolate), and the fact that their DPS can match a Monk's is surprising to me, but they still fall short of a Warrior, a class that's seemingly meant more for Tanking than it is for damage output.

Does a Rangers Kick eventually get the ability to stun and interrupt spells like a Warriors?

The first AoW on server was lost because there was no ranger on the raid to CoTP or SoN. Attack is the ultimate dps buff (except haste) here on P99 and they are the attack buffers. Also, weaponshield is fantastic on raids. If the warrior dies a ranger can easily out aggro everyone, click weaponshield, and tank while the CH chain gets set up on a new warrior. There is also content like CT in the plane of fear and a good ranger can update the raid with how many mobs are left in the zone. This comes into play when competing against other guilds to know when to pull the god before they do.

Rangers cannot kick stun.

[Loadsamoney]

The first AoW on server was lost because there was no ranger on the raid to CoTP or SoN. Attack is the ultimate dps buff (except haste) here on P99 and they are the attack buffers. Also, weaponshield is fantastic on raids. If the warrior dies a ranger can easily out aggro everyone, click weaponshield, and tank while the CH chain gets set up on a new warrior. There is also content like CT in the plane of fear and a good ranger can update the raid with how many mobs are left in the zone. This comes into play when competing against other guilds to know when to pull the god before they do.

Rangers cannot kick stun.

Yet they are treated like scum of the earth on Green.

Still, good to hear that they have a place in Velious Raiding. Can't wait to gear one up and play again.

[Loadsamoney]

The first AoW on server was lost because there was no ranger on the raid to CoTP or SoN. Attack is the ultimate dps buff (except haste) here on P99 and they are the attack buffers. Also, weaponshield is fantastic on raids. If the warrior dies a ranger can easily out aggro everyone, click weaponshield, and tank while the CH chain gets set up on a new warrior. There is also content like CT in the plane of fear and a good ranger can update the raid with how many mobs are left in the zone. This comes into play when competing against other guilds to know when to pull the god before they do.

Rangers cannot kick stun.

You're saying a full raid party wiped to Avatar of War solely because they didn't have a Ranger's Call of the Predator buff? Literally no other reason?

[Keebz]

Outside of tracking then, what value does a Ranger bring to a raid situation if their DPS is only middle of the road?

In classic, I've been pulling (either directly or as part of a larger pull team) quite a bit in the planes.

Yet they are treated like scum of the earth on Green.

They are absolutely not. In the forums, they often are though. Get off the forums and go play the game.

[Adron]

Gotcha, I think I misread the previous statement in that I thought he was suggesting that attack raises your damage done. This makes more sense.

OK, what the heck, I tested pure ATK buffs and their effect on melee dmg.

Scenario: 53 Ranger, 159 str, 225 offense (maxed), 215 weapon skill (maxed), 32/37 Massive velium brawl stick. 965 listed ATK on client.

1)No buffs whatsoever, 965 ATK, kill 3 hill giants. I pulled with flamestrikes so as not to confuse my logs with bowshots.

2)Add Strength of Nature (25 atk), wolf form (40 atk), new atk = 1038 displayed (8 more than expected...hrm). still 159 str. Kill 3 hill giants, notice it happened in substantially less hits, kill a 4th to get about same data points as set 1.

graph the data yourself... the mean dmg per hit is almost 10 points higher in set 2. The max dmg hit is 17 higher.

DMG 965 atk
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[Kich867]

OK, what the heck, I tested pure ATK buffs and their effect on melee dmg.

Scenario: 53 Ranger, 159 str, 225 offense (maxed), 215 weapon skill (maxed), 32/37 Massive velium brawl stick. 965 listed ATK on client.

1)No buffs whatsoever, 965 ATK, kill 3 hill giants. I pulled with flamestrikes so as not to confuse my logs with bowshots.

2)Add Strength of Nature (25 atk), wolf form (40 atk), new atk = 1038 displayed (8 more than expected...hrm). still 159 str. Kill 3 hill giants, notice it happened in substantially less hits, kill a 4th to get about same data points as set 1.

graph the data yourself... the mean dmg per hit is almost 10 points higher in set 2. The max dmg hit is 17 higher.

[...data]

Well thats god damn fascinating.

[Sabin76]

It seems ATK does not affect the median damage you do at all (both data sets had identical medians/modes at 81), but that shift up in min/max values is quite interesting (mostly accounting for the change in mean).

Are HGs static level where you were hunting? Were some of them wearing armor?

[Adron]

it was West karana HG's, and i sure cannot tell if they're wearing any armor besides their filthy overalls.
I only kept data from the 'it's not certain though' cons, which still could have a variance of 1 level, but at 53 that means they had to be either 36 or 37.
Look at that huge jump in max. <100 data points leaves a lot of random number generator shenannigans, but still...

[Sabin76]

I would assume that if they dropped any armor, they would have been wearing it, but that's the only thing I can think of besides the level.

[7thGate]

Outside of tracking then, what value does a Ranger bring to a raid situation if their DPS is only middle of the road?

Ranger is one of my favorite classes and I plan to reroll one eventually. They get Dual Wield, Double Attack and Kick, and two okay DoT's late game as well (Drones of Doom and Immolate), and the fact that their DPS can match a Monk's is surprising to me, but they still fall short of a Warrior, a class that's seemingly meant more for Tanking than it is for damage output.

Does a Rangers Kick eventually get the ability to stun and interrupt spells like a Warriors?

In addition to the other mentioned things, Trueshot is underrated on Rangers, especially if the raidforce isn't BIS. An Exquisite Velium Bow Ranger is going to be at about 90% of the DPS of a Ragebringer/Exquisite Velium Spear rogue for two minutes while using Trueshot, and they get to do it from 350 range away. If a single dragon fear or slow AOE sticks on a rogue, or AOE dodge is required, the Ranger will pull ahead. They get to ignore terrible hit boxes and mob movement due to tank fears/etc while doing this too; while I was still doing sky, Rangers would routinely top DPS vs. Queen Bee because her hit box sucks and she'll move sometimes after deathtouching the tank before getting brought back under control.

You do have to do fights in places where you can actually get that range though. On some targets you can, on some you can't. If there's no debilitating AOEs, then it doesn't matter anyway.

[Loadsamoney]

What I'm really curious about is why Warriors are classified as a terrible soloing class? To me, a characters ability to solo is not defined by how much downtime they have after an engagement, but whether or not they can win an engagement at all. If a 30 Warrior can fight, say, a 28 Guard in High Keep and win the fight, regardless of how much downtime they have afterwords, they are a capable soloing class in that instance, IMO.

And given that Warriors have Kick/Slam, Dual Wield, Double Attack and Crits, I would think that, with even semi-decent weapons and some plain old Banded Armor, a Warrior could do quite well if they just stick to pulling singles, kill their target quickly, and then regen up while they wait for a respawn. That's typically what I do playing other melee classes anyway.

[Naethyn]

Paladins get lay on hands.
Shadowknights get harm touch.
Warriors get a text to remind healers that they are low life.

[Loadsamoney]

Paladins get lay on hands.
Shadowknights get harm touch.
Warriors get a text to remind healers that they are low life.

Warriors also get Crits, Kick, and higher HP.

[Naethyn]

Warriors can solo, but not effectively until 50 and kunark weapons, and even then its kinda slow waiting on procs. The idea is to use snare whip, your bow, and a joust with a trunch for slow. I used to solo quite a bit in the 50's using this strategy. Once slow lands its 2 blood points.

[Allishia]

War solo is really easy 1-50 if twinked...my war lvled really fast with a fungi and a crappy 2hb. Had a few root nets for emergency and a backpack full of bandaids. Was fun! Ofc once you get 51+ duo or trio is way faster though.

[kaev]

War solo is really easy 1-50 if twinked...my war lvled really fast with a fungi and a crappy 2hb. Had a few root nets for emergency and a backpack full of bandaids. Was fun! Ofc once you get 51+ duo or trio is way faster though.

Rootnets no longer good for emergency tho...

[Dogma]

Mostly solo'd 1-50 and exclusively solo'd 50-60 on my warrior (the first time through).

Fungi tunic, truncheon of doom, blood point x2 and skinning knife.

[Loadsamoney]

Mostly solo'd 1-50 and exclusively solo'd 50-60 on my warrior (the first time through).

Fungi tunic, truncheon of doom, blood point x2 and skinning knife.

Okay, but what about soloing efficiently and comfortably for a Warrior that doesn't have access to regen or lifetap procs?

[Dogma]

Okay, but what about soloing efficiently and comfortably for a Warrior that doesn't have access to regen or lifetap procs?
I wouldn't know. A couple good weapons with haste item and you can probably beastmode a mob or two to death. One of the Green warriors might be able to answer you better.

Doesn't sound like fun to me. I would recommend not planning on soloing a lot in that instance.

[Snaggles]

Warriors and rogues can solo well into the 50’s without problem (even 60 really). You just have to pick your zones and battles wisely. And gear them very well and burn a lot of bandages.

They are the only two melees that have no real contingency plan besides running away. Cast time on expensive root nets further complicates things. All the other melees have options on how to extend or escape a fight without hoping to run to a zone.

That said, a warrior (and rogue) are amazing classes. They a Snap On ratchet set where a hybrid is a Leatherman. It’s a better more specific tool but lacking flexibility.

[Jimjam]

Axe of the slayers will let you chain kill some lower blues in karana at 30. Hopefully the lack of downtime makes up for the decreased dps.

Obviously the bandage trick helps too, but that could/should be nerfed any day soon.

[ZamnilBlackaxe1989]

Quite glad I read through this thread, it's given me a lot of insight into warriors and what they can do. If I can get myself into a leveling guild things should be breezy.

[Grimstrike]

JimJam is wrong, Combat Bind Wound has been around forever and it isn't going anywhere. Some like to call it Battle Bind Wound, but not everyone can handle BBW...

[DMN]

JimJam is wrong, Combat Bind Wound has been around forever and it isn't going anywhere. Some like to call it Battle Bind Wound, but not everyone can handle BBW...

What makes you so sure? They pulled a bunch of stuff off blue not that long ago that had been on the server since forever.

[kjs86z]

Okay, but what about soloing efficiently and comfortably for a Warrior that doesn't have access to regen or lifetap procs?

Just don't.

Find a group or duo w/ a shaman.

[kaev]

Just don't.

Find a group or duo w/ a shaman.

If no shaman available, a druid (if you can find one who isn't just another quad-zombie) or even a cleric is almost infinitely superior to soloing a warrior.

[jolanar]

JimJam is wrong, Combat Bind Wound has been around forever and it isn't going anywhere. Some like to call it Battle Bind Wound, but not everyone can handle BBW...

Hehehe.


Anyways there is a lot of good discussion on this thread but I hate how people talk about this game like the only thing there is is raiding at level 60 will full NToV gear. For example saying monks are mediocre dps might be true in that scenario but it's certainly not true 1 to 60 in EC tunnel gear where monks will have far superior dps due to the weapons available and everyone isn't stacked with raid buffs.

In my experience, most people won't even make it to level 60, much less stick around long enough after that to do serious raiding.


For the OP:
Warriors are fine as dps, but that's like playing a monk and not expecting to have to pull when in groups. You are gonna be disappointed.

[Zipity]

Monks are pretty much on par with most rogues DPS at this point

[Naethyn]

Monks are terrible dps - they aren't even close to rogues. A Paladin with a vulak 2h is doing more sometimes.

[kaizersoze]

With a vindi bp, SWC, Dozekzar mask, AOB clicky from fear, primal, blue sword, belt of dwarf slaying, 41% haste item, zordak ragefire gauntlets for equipped firefist effect, and in berserk? Yeah that could be good dps. especially if they use their "make every attack a crit" disc in berserk for crippling blows.

[Zipity]

Monks with triple attack, and a two hander swapping in for fists parse very well, definitely better than a Paladin, especially since they can clear their aggro completely.

[7thGate]

Depends on relative gear too. Its been my observation that its much easier for Paladins and SKs to get high end weapons than warriors, monks or rogues. If there's a noticeable gear disparity as a result, Pallys can be up there.

In Aegis, for example, we have a pally with Tunare sword and at least two with Great Spear of Dawn. Most of our other classes are not nearly that well geared. Tunare sword pally was 7th DPS at the last big dragon kill (LTK) behind 4 rogues and 2 monks, and ahead of 2 rogues, 4 warriors, 5 rangers, 4 monks and a collection of other paladins/sks.

I've lost to that Pally in DPS on short duration fights before where I'm really unlucky on backstab hits and he's really lucky on his hits, though I comfortably outpace him on longer duration fights with lower DPS variance (I was 2nd on that parse).

[Zipity]

Depends on relative gear too. Its been my observation that its much easier for Paladins and SKs to get high end weapons than warriors, monks or rogues. If there's a noticeable gear disparity as a result, Pallys can be up there.

In Aegis, for example, we have a pally with Tunare sword and at least two with Great Spear of Dawn. Most of our other classes are not nearly that well geared. Tunare sword pally was 7th DPS at the last big dragon kill (LTK) behind 4 rogues and 2 monks, and ahead of 2 rogues, 4 warriors, 5 rangers, 4 monks and a collection of other paladins/sks.

I've lost to that Pally in DPS on short duration fights before where I'm really unlucky on backstab hits and he's really lucky on his hits, though I comfortably outpace him on longer duration fights with lower DPS variance (I was 2nd on that parse).

Well when a monk weapon swaps his fists have a 9/16 so he can squeeze out some offhand 9/16 attacks vs anyone else who is just gonna lands punch or two for 3 dmg. But yes a TOV/tunare geared Paladin vs a normal grouping melee is gonna be skewed and not a fair comparison I’m talking classes with similar gear. With similar gear I think a monk is second on DPS to rogue on melee dps due to great ratio weapons, triple attack, eagle strikes, dropping weapon to extra 9/16 offhand rounds, and being able to engage instantly and flopping aggro mid fight at will. Monks are just OP in velious.

[Naethyn]

Years of melee parsing end game Velious content with primal avatar has shown this average:

Rogue (135 dps) > Warrior (110 dps) > Ranger/Monk (85 dps) > Paladin (50 dps) > Shadowknight (45 dps)

The main take away is that monks, while considered a dps class by many, are in fact not very good dps - even with the very best gear. Warriors are the clear second for melee dps.

[jolanar]

Durp herp

No need to actually counter with what anyone else says... I'll just quote myself repeatedly!

[Jimjam]

nA&Aethyn

[Shac]

What would a low level warrior want if they were trying to enter berzerker mode at level 12+
https://wiki.project1999.com/Magelo_Green:Labtop
I'm continuing to hear DEX doesnt do much at lower levels, but if it is the only stat that helps me crit more, would I want more crit change with higher dex or higher strength for more damage. I imagine solo warrior stopping HP regen with no food and Crimson Potions would be able to stop regening, but is this effective?

I think my focus would be to stack HP so when I do enter berzerking 40% isn't such a detriment to me that I have only 200hp...
hp and dex for more value in cripping blows, default with high strenght and most dex, best class to try this on would be a dwarf it seems to me,
ogre has obvious advantages because no frontal stun is pretty big, when you're already putting yourself at such a close to death scenario, but their low dex doesn't make it appealing to me.

[enjchanter]

Really hope this thread can convince the server that dps warriors can be a thing because tanking is 2nd lamest thing in the game besides rooted dragons

[unleashedd]

food for tought: ogre war for max HP so berserking at 40% HP lets the war have more cushioning OR gnome war for less HP so berserking at 40% HP treshold is easier to achieve PLUS you get tinkering armor clicks

ogre literally gets double STR and nearly double STA of a gnome, while gnome gets +15DEX

[Shac]

food for tought: ogre war for max HP so berserking at 40% HP lets the war have more cushioning OR gnome war for less HP so berserking at 40% HP treshold is easier to achieve PLUS you get tinkering armor clicks

ogre literally gets double STR and nearly double STA of a gnome, while gnome gets +15DEX

Is there a nice way to compare these two things?
Get level 12 on both characters, ungeared/unhasted?

[Allishia]

food for tought: ogre war for max HP so berserking at 40% HP lets the war have more cushioning OR gnome war for less HP so berserking at 40% HP treshold is easier to achieve PLUS you get tinkering armor clicks

ogre literally gets double STR and nearly double STA of a gnome, while gnome gets +15DEX

Stats all cap with raid gear + sham buff, even on a dark elf. /Nod.
And if your gear isn't raid stuff you can still cap dex and str easy since they stack with fos if casted first.

[Snaggles]

I don’t really understand this thread.

In a raid you would have to have an excess of warriors (more than you would ever need to keep their defensive/evasive discs ready) who want to go zerk-mode, sure why not? If you have a low amount of hps or aren’t 60 likely it’s not a bad role if not needed for ramp duty.

For a grind group DPS is the easiest role to fill. I would never turn down even a non-zerk warrior who wants to dps and let the knight tank; they do great damage and aren’t squishy. It’s just a rare luxury of having too many tanks who need groups. It’s like having multiple enchanters with charmed pets. Hell it’s great but it’s not typical.

Basically if you are in an elite tier of the game (any raid guild with extra warriors), sure...go nuts. Thinking outside the box is a good thing. If you aren’t or just are leveling up you better learn to tank of you chose to play a tank. Trying to mold a PUG to your esoteric game play best case will annoy a lot of people. Worst case you will die a lot.

[unleashedd]

Trying to mold a PUG to your esoteric game play best case will annoy a lot of people.

learned this the hard way trying to make a Shockadin work in WoW...

[Snaggles]

learned this the hard way trying to make a Shockadin work in WoW...

I rolled Shockadin around BC far past it being viable. Got occasional kills tho in AV. Probably annoyed people once they realized it :). Tiny victories, lol.