Are Bards strong enough/sturdy enough to solo in melee combat?

[Loadsamoney]

Obviously they don't put out much DPS, their role in a group is mainly support oriented, but I spend more time soloing then partying, and I don't like the kind of soloing a Bard typically does, the kind involving fear-kiting a dozen mobs and being instantly dead if one catches up to you and stuns you. I prefer going toe to toe with enemies one at a time generally.

Obviously this isn't the optimal way to play the class, but it's what I prefer. So, assuming a Bard is decently geared with a Haste item, HP boosters and solid weapons, and actively twists, can said Bard go toe to toe with enemies like High Keep Guards and Geonids in CC, and win the day without having a ton of downtime after a single fight?

[Adron]

yes. I have a 51 bard who has melee'd his way up. I'm stuck gold farming at the moment for my next upgrade, but i can tell you that being at the haste cap makes up for no double attack. I'm sure i have better str than a human tank would normally have (235 with the right song), though not up to ogre warr standards by any means.
Not having block/parry/riposte seems to be more than made up by the slow song.
My twink level: 34% haste belt, fungy, 2 10/18 weapons. everything else is ac/hp/str, basically a 500plat/slot build except for fungi and weapons. oh, and lute of the howler str stacks with your song str. yay! my 10/18 main hand maxes at 59 dmg at lev 51.
Fungi + lute + 2 heal songs make downtime lower than anything I've ever played, though i've not twinked a monk yet.
RNG kicking your ass? fear, or kite.
I compared 3 options for killing a blue HG at 50: melee, with 4 songs (haste, slow, 2 dots), drum (walrus) with 3 dots + slow in tank mode (to do full dot dmg), drum with 3 dots and slow in kite mode. Melee was about 15 seconds /kill shorter than drum tanking, same down time, 35 seconds shorter than drum kite, but with a 8 tic recovery average over 10 giants, before being ready for the next.
So go for it if you have a fungi. Probably can still do it without the fungi, maybe fear/snare/haste/dot for lower downtime.

[Loadsamoney]

yes. I have a 51 bard who has melee'd his way up. I'm stuck gold farming at the moment for my next upgrade, but i can tell you that being at the haste cap makes up for no double attack. I'm sure i have better str than a human tank would normally have (235 with the right song), though not up to ogre warr standards by any means.
Not having block/parry/riposte seems to be more than made up by the slow song.
My twink level: 34% haste belt, fungy, 2 10/18 weapons. everything else is ac/hp/str, basically a 500plat/slot build except for fungi and weapons. oh, and lute of the howler str stacks with your song str. yay! my 10/18 main hand maxes at 59 dmg at lev 51.
Fungi + lute + 2 heal songs make downtime lower than anything I've ever played, though i've not twinked a monk yet.
RNG kicking your ass? fear, or kite.
I compared 3 options for killing a blue HG at 50: melee, with 4 songs (haste, slow, 2 dots), drum (walrus) with 3 dots + slow in tank mode (to do full dot dmg), drum with 3 dots and slow in kite mode. Melee was about 15 seconds /kill shorter than drum tanking, same down time, 35 seconds shorter than drum kite, but with a 8 tic recovery average over 10 giants, before being ready for the next.
So go for it if you have a fungi. Probably can still do it without the fungi, maybe fear/snare/haste/dot for lower downtime.

Ideally I'd be twisting Haste, DoT, and Regen while fighting, maybe a second dot or a slow if Twisting 4 is doable without dropping a song. I also forgot that Fear Kiting is a thing for Bards. So I can Snare one, Fear it, then beat it to death without it ever hitting me or running away. So that should work against Guards and Geodes.

Bards do get Parry, Dodge and Riposte too. They're just not very high.

Sounds good though. I'm cycling through my weapon options right now, but likely I'd be using Guardian Mace and Breath of Harmony. Symphonic Saber would be good as well.

[Adron]

twisting 4 is not easy when blue mobs are bashing you a lot. Also, i get a lot of missed notes with str/hp/ac build vs dex, which some people say does not matter, but certainly matters at my dex (I can't even remember, can't be more than 110).

[Loadsamoney]

twisting 4 is not easy when blue mobs are bashing you a lot. Also, i get a lot of missed notes with str/hp/ac build vs dex, which some people say does not matter, but certainly matters at my dex (I can't even remember, can't be more than 110).

Personally I never really knew how to spread my stats as a Bard. I set Dex and Cha to 100 and put 5 into Sta to get it to 75 and not have a supposed penalty.

I can just stick to 3 then. Haste, DoT, and Slow, and use Regen after battle to top up.

[ChooChoo Train]

You can single target dot fear kite and kill all kinds of things this way much safer and faster than meleeing. Soloing bards/nobles in highkeep is easy this Way starting at lvl 46. Bards melee is very lacking and you will be very disappointed in doing this (unless you have an epic of course)

[Loadsamoney]

You can single target dot fear kite and kill all kinds of things this way much safer and faster than meleeing. Soloing bards/nobles in highkeep is easy this Way starting at lvl 46. Bards melee is very lacking and you will be very disappointed in doing this (unless you have an epic of course)

Which I'm told the Bard epic is one of the hardest and most expensive ones to get.

[ChooChoo Train]

If it doesn’t summon it’s super easy to kill as bard - on green I have no problems soloing in SolB or felwithe guards(harder than Highkeep nobles), etc without charming or swarming(although it’s fun to do as well) being a bard is like a game in itself lol. It’s a great class to farm pure plat or sell PLs, great on raids and groups too. If you want just a melee class with low downtime I’d suggest a monk.

[Loadsamoney]

If it doesn’t summon it’s super easy to kill as bard - on green I have no problems soloing in SolB or felwithe guards(harder than Highkeep nobles), etc without charming or swarming(although it’s fun to do as well) being a bard is like a game in itself lol. It’s a great class to farm pure plat or sell PLs, great on raids and groups too. If you want just a melee class with low downtime I’d suggest a monk.

Melee is one part of it, I want to have versatility and be able to do many things. Heal/support, charm, fear, kite, buff, melee when needed, solo, group and raid. And have easy money farming too.

I actually hate played specialized classes like Wizard, Rogue, etc. I much prefer hybrids that can fill a wide variety of roles. Versatility and flexibility over specialization.

In other words, I prefer to be able to do a bunch of things decently instead of doing one thing great and sucking at everything else.

[ChooChoo Train]

Ench/shm/necro/brd all have very large toolkits

[Keebz]

You should know Bards on Blue are now (as of Chardok 2.0) on standard melee damage tables. On Green, they are on a different shittier melee damage table. So it's not they just _don't_ get Double Attack, Parry, etc. they also just deal less damage in melee than the true melee classes. Moreover, on Green the melee weapons and armors are all quite terrible. So, in summary, on Blue, melee-ing is more workable given enough gear, while on Green it's insurmountably bad—once you have a decent kit of songs, you will for the most part not be melee-ing.

[Loadsamoney]

You should know Bards on Blue are now (as of Chardok 2.0) on standard melee damage tables. On Green, they are on a different shittier melee damage table. So it's not they just _don't_ get Double Attack, Parry, etc. they also just deal less damage in melee than the true melee classes. Moreover, on Green the melee weapons and armors are all quite terrible. So, in summary, on Blue, melee-ing is more workable given enough gear, while on Green it's insurmountably bad—once you have a decent kit of songs, you will for the most part not be melee-ing.

Interesting, may not want to play a Bard on green then.

So what should I call a Bard that relies and builds for a heavier role in melee? Battle Bard?

[Vexenu]

Bard melee is deceptively good if you're heavily twinked like Adron described earlier in the thread. Your actual melee damage is much lower than a Monk, Rogue or Warrior, but the fact that you can:

1) Slow the mob
2) Haste yourself
3) Regen yourself
4) DS yourself
5) Snare/fear the mob if you get in trouble

All make melee soloing on a twinked Bard quite easy. If you're picking low blue con mobs the level differential will do you a lot of favors as well with your melee damage and tanking ability.

It's obviously not as efficient in terms of XP per hour as swarming, but it's absolutely a viable way to move the XP bar. I definitely would not recommend it on Green, however. I'd only do it on Blue where high quality twink gear is cheap and abundant.

[Loadsamoney]

Bard melee is deceptively good if you're heavily twinked like Adron described earlier in the thread. Your actual melee damage is much lower than a Monk, Rogue or Warrior, but the fact that you can:

1) Slow the mob
2) Haste yourself
3) Regen yourself
4) DS yourself
5) Snare/fear the mob if you get in trouble

All make melee soloing on a twinked Bard quite easy. If you're picking low blue con mobs the level differential will do you a lot of favors as well with your melee damage and tanking ability.

It's obviously not as efficient in terms of XP per hour as swarming, but it's absolutely a viable way to move the XP bar. I definitely would not recommend it on Green, however. I'd only do it on Blue where high quality twink gear is cheap and abundant.

I'm gonna have a minor Haste item to work with, Swiftclaw Sash. This is so I don't have to hog the hand slot with Silver Chitin Hand Wraps, and I can wear the full Lambent Armor set for fashion and continuity. That'll eventually be replaced with Imbrued set and Belt of Concordance when I start doing Planar raiding.

Still, 15% isn't bad considering it'll stack with a song. The gear list I'm compiling right now:

Di'zok Wristsnapper
Crystalline Shortsword
Velium Fire Wedding Ring x2
Orc Fang Earring x2
Chipped Velium Amulet
Dire Wolf-Hide Cloak
Sebilite Scale Cloak
Sarnak Hide Mask
Swiftclaw Sash
Lambent Helm
Lambent Breastplate
Lambent Greaves
Lambent Vambraces
Lambent Bracer x2
Lambent Boots
Lambent Gauntlets

That will hopefully be enough to get me to at least 50 and into entry-level Planar raiding. Will eventually replace the Crystalline Shortsword with Breath of Harmony too, and have Symphonic Saber as needed for aggro. I'm not even going to think about the Epic until 60.

[Keebz]

That gear is not good enough to make me consider melee-ing as viable after the early 30's or so.

If that is what your budget looks like and you want to melee, you would be better served rolling another class. Maybe consider one of the other hybrids, since you seem to like versatility. Monk would also be a good choice.

[Vexenu]

Agree that is is not the best gear for this idea. Lambent looks great but doesn't have good tanking stats. Ideally you'd want to have a lot of high AC Velious armor (i.e. Phase Spider Carapace, Crystal Chitin gloves and boots, Dragonhide legs and mask) and fill in the rest with other decent AC, STR and HP items. You're also really gonna want to have the best weapons you can from the jump, which is probably a 10/18 Breath of Harmony and a 14/24 Guardian's Mace and an FBSS for haste. Most of this stuff is still pretty cheap and would make the melee Bard experience go much more smoothly.

I had a Bard with basically this exact gear awhile ago and he was a pretty sturdy tank. Was easily melee soloing with him in OT with very little downtime when I didn't feel like swarming.

[Loadsamoney]

I don't want to exclusively build and gear around melee and nothing else, I just want melee to be an option when I need it. The gear shouldn't matter that much because, as I understand it, Fear Kiting and Mez-Melee both work just fine for an untwinked Bard with no gear. If Fear Kiting is too risky because of nearby adds, then I can just do straight up melee with a single target, and when/if my HP gets low I can safely twist Mez > Regen > Mez > Regen until I get my HP back.

My budget is allowing me to buy a Sash of the Dragonborn. I have a Di'zok Wristsnapper already, which is a 10/18 weapon, identical to BoH, so I can pair it with a Guardian's Mace and be set on weapons until 50.

[Keebz]

I don't want to exclusively build and gear around melee and nothing else, I just want melee to be an option when I need it.

AC/HP/Resists is what you want to gear for on a Bard anyway. You'll randomly get enough DEX on gear and CHA is only useful for Lulls. The real opportunity cost is not spending money on instruments that provide a very noticeable effect on your songs, which are the most powerful thing you do.

The gear shouldn't matter that much because, as I understand it, Fear Kiting and Mez-Melee both work just fine for an untwinked Bard with no gear.

I can say from experience, killing stuff with melee on a bard is very slow even with good weapons and haste. Hopefully, Chardok 2.0 improved things for you here. But more importantly taking hits as a bard is very painful if you aren't over geared. Bards get less return on AC than the pure melee classes. I highly suggest at least mixing in some high AC/HP pieces with that Lambent.

Anyway, sounds like you have made up your mind. So go out there and get your hands dirty.

[Loadsamoney]

AC/HP/Resists is what you want to gear for on a Bard anyway. You'll randomly get enough DEX on gear and CHA is only useful for Lulls. The real opportunity cost is not spending money on instruments that provide a very noticeable effect on your songs, which are the most powerful thing you do.



I can say from experience, killing stuff with melee on a bard is very slow even with good weapons and haste. Hopefully, Chardok 2.0 improved things for you here. But more importantly taking hits as a bard is very painful if you aren't over geared. Bards get less return on AC than the pure melee classes. I highly suggest at least mixing in some high AC/HP pieces with that Lambent.

Anyway, sounds like you have made up your mind. So go out there and get your hands dirty.

I've got some decent filler HP/AC pieces in between, Velium Fire Wedding Rings, Orc Fang Earrings, Chipped Velium Amulet, and Dire Wolf Hide Cloak. So my AC/HP shouldn't be that bad with full Lambent.

All I need now is for someone to actually sell it to me. 400pp for Breast, 300 for arms, 200 each for Boots, Gloves, Bracers and Helmet. That's what I'm offering in EC at the moment.

Need to get Lute of the Gypsy Princess and Mistmoore Battle Drums, and I should be good in instruments for a while.

[Loadsamoney]

I'm not using Lambent after all, I just transferred the junk my Ranger had stashed away.

Brigandine Tunic
Crested Helm
Hero's Bracer
Kylong Wrist Guard
Dwarven Work Boots
Black Ice Leggings
Vambraces of Avoidance
Silver Chitin Hand Wraps
Orc Fang Earring x2
Velium Fire Wedding Ring x2
Dire Wolf-Hide Cloak
Crested Spaulders
Crystalline Belt
Di'zok Wristsnapper
Guardian's Mace
iSarnak Hide Mask
Chipped Velium Amulet

Lute of the Gypsy Princess
Mistmoore Battle Drums

Hopefully this stuff will hold me over until I upgrade to either Thurgadin armor or Planar armor. Or quest for the Lambent crap myself.

[Snaggles]

I assumed dot damage with drums is better than melee unless you have some really good weapons and item haste.

Plus advantage is you can do two dots, snare, and fear while reverse kiting or if the mob runs a bit too far twist in a 3rd dot and snare kite it back.

I’ve only done this in the low 50’s in HK and Grobb but found I was getting less hurt, killing about the same speed, and had drums already equipped for a fast get-away. Plus easy click to lute to top off hps after the kill.

[Loadsamoney]

I assumed dot damage with drums is better than melee unless you have some really good weapons and item haste.

Plus advantage is you can do two dots, snare, and fear while reverse kiting or if the mob runs a bit too far twist in a 3rd dot and snare kite it back.

I’ve only done this in the low 50’s in HK and Grobb but found I was getting less hurt, killing about the same speed, and had drums already equipped for a fast get-away.

I have 22% Haste Item Silver Chitin Hand Wraps, and these weapons:

https://wiki.project1999.com/Di%27zok_Wristsnapper
https://wiki.project1999.com/Guardians_Mace

[Strifen]

I played around with a twinked out melee bard up to high 40's and it's surprisingly effective. I had fungi, 36% haste cloak, 10/18 mh with 12/20 offhand, rest of the gear was focused around ac/str/hp. Between self haste, slow/snare, melee buffs, hp regen, selos you get a lot that makes up for the lack of raw damage that a war or monk has.

[GnomeCaptain]

On my Bard on green melee damage is much, much less than instrument-enhanced song damage.

Only way I can figure it's worthwhile is with severe twinking.

[Baler]

Bards don't get a okay taste of melee until the end of Velious. Oct 8, 2001

I just updated several pages on the wiki via the patch notes information. so I can say this with confidence

[gladeous]

Anyone have tips on killing indoors? Is charming effective for a bard? I guess fear kiting is not an option. Any links to videos would be awesome as well.

[Adron]

Charm is extremely effective indoors. If for some reason you're restricted to one mob, snare + drum dots is fine, just run a really small circle! Or, you know, as a group master enhancer, you could like not solo and just make everybody else better.

[Wallicker]

Charm and fear + snare + 3 drum dots are both extremely viable indoor killing strats, at 50 3 drum dots on a feared mob does more dmg than envenomed bolt. Fear only lasts 18 seconds so if you bring back to your starting point the mob doesn’t go very far. Charming is very awesome even though for some reason we don’t get our lvl 39 classic charm song so once mobs reach lvl 38+ you have to rely on drum dots to solo. I could see a bard making it to 50osh twinked on blue just meleeing if that’s what you want to do. After that you will have to use the power of your songs if you want to solo play effectively(without mezzing and regening mid fights).

[Loadsamoney]

So, I'm just about ready to start my Bard, got almost all of his gear assembled (just missing a Sarnak Backstabber and a spare Chipped Velium Amulet) and was planning on starting him when my Paladin dings 50. I would continue to level him on my own time when I feel like torturing myself (45 has been miserable), and play the Bard as an alt when my chosen camps are unavailable.

This is my Bards starting gear:

Di'zok Wristsnapper
Guardian's Mace
Sarnak Backstabber
Crested Helmet
Crested Spaulders
Sarnak Hide Mask
Brigandine Tunic
Black Ice Leggings
Dwarven Work Boots
Silver Chitin Hand Wraps
Hero's Bracer
Kylong Wrist Guards
Vambraces of Avoidance
Dire Wolf-Hide Cloak
Crystalline Belt
Chipped Velium Amulet
Orc Fang Earring x2
Velium Fire Wedding Ring x2

So basically it's a mishmash of low-mid quality armor, but lots of HP, two weapons over 0.50 ratios, and a Haste item.

At 50 I plan to retire the Sarnak Backstabber, put the Wristsnapper in my Range slot and main a Breath of Harmony. I should probably get a Symphonic Saber as well, both for 50 group play and for training 1hSlashing.

Is this gear sufficient to get me to 60 prior to Thurgadin/Planar armor, or will I need to invest in upgrades along the way?

And just to clarify, Lambent is not worth the investment?

[Crede]

So, I'm just about ready to start my Bard, got almost all of his gear assembled (just missing a Sarnak Backstabber and a spare Chipped Velium Amulet) and was planning on starting him when my Paladin dings 50. I would continue to level him on my own time when I feel like torturing myself (45 has been miserable), and play the Bard as an alt when my chosen camps are unavailable.

This is my Bards starting gear:

Di'zok Wristsnapper
Guardian's Mace
Sarnak Backstabber
Crested Helmet
Crested Spaulders
Sarnak Hide Mask
Brigandine Tunic
Black Ice Leggings
Dwarven Work Boots
Silver Chitin Hand Wraps
Hero's Bracer
Kylong Wrist Guards
Vambraces of Avoidance
Dire Wolf-Hide Cloak
Crystalline Belt
Chipped Velium Amulet
Orc Fang Earring x2
Velium Fire Wedding Ring x2

So basically it's a mishmash of low-mid quality armor, but lots of HP, two weapons over 0.50 ratios, and a Haste item.

At 50 I plan to retire the Sarnak Backstabber, put the Wristsnapper in my Range slot and main a Breath of Harmony. I should probably get a Symphonic Saber as well, both for 50 group play and for training 1hSlashing.

Is this gear sufficient to get me to 60 prior to Thurgadin/Planar armor, or will I need to invest in upgrades along the way?

And just to clarify, Lambent is not worth the investment?

Bards can get to 60 naked. Lambent isn’t necessary, your main focus should be acquiring the best drum possible, and potentially a singingsteel bp or other static regen. do some plate cycles to get thurg plate gear eventually.

[Wallicker]

Are you planning on solo meleeing 50+? If so you want luteof the howler for the haste and fungi for regen or it won’t work unless you’re gonna fear/charm/swarm kite or spend a reaaaaly long time killing mobs.

[Loadsamoney]

Are you planning on solo meleeing 50+? If so you want luteof the howler for the haste and fungi for regen or it won’t work unless you’re gonna fear/charm/swarm kite or spend a reaaaaly long time killing mobs.

The Guards in Paineel are 10pp per kill, afk safe, and easily singled out.

But yes, I plan to facetank the Guards in Paineel from 20 to 50+.

[Wallicker]

Guards in paineel go green before 50+ iirc

[Wallicker]

But once you start facetanking mobs over lvl 37 that hit for 100+ you’ll start running into issues without really superb gear, fungi and lute of the howler are huge for solo face tanking and really an epic....

[Loadsamoney]

But once you start facetanking mobs over lvl 37 that hit for 100+ you’ll start running into issues without really superb gear, fungi and lute of the howler are huge for solo face tanking and really an epic....

The palace guards are level 33-37 and remain solid exp until about 52-53 or so. There's a 52 monk there right now who says those guards still give him high green exp. And the captain is still blue.

Their max hit is 80.

[Naethyn]

Warriors get something like 0.45 rAC per worn (visible) AC. That means for every 10 item AC they get 4.5 in the ATK vs AC calculation. Bard is down with casters at around 0.24 rAC per worn AC. Even though they wear plate they mitigate far less than say a ranger, or rogue in chain armor.

[Loadsamoney]

Warriors get something like 0.45 rAC per worn (visible) AC. That means for every 10 item AC they get 4.5 in the ATK vs AC calculation. Bard is down with casters at around 0.24 rAC per worn AC. Even though they wear plate they mitigate far less than say a ranger, or rogue in chain armor.

Paladins and Shadow Knights are around 0.33 iirc. What's a Ranger at?

Bards can also slow their target, so their overall incoming damage gets mitigated a bit. My solo twist at 30+ is going to be Jonthan's Whistling Warsong, Selo's Consonant Chain, and Fufil's Curtailing Chant. So a self haste, a target DoT, and a target slow.

[Tann]

slow, haste, regen (lute swap), dot

was my bread and butter for face tanking.

[Snaggles]

It’s not just flat AC. Look at the defensive melee caps on a bard. Dodge 155 max, parry 105 max (can train at 53), riposte 75 max (can train at 58).

Yea tankier than a Cleric I guess. Anyone can tank normal stuff is slowed but those skill caps are objectively bad even with the 252 defense cap. Basically great AC figures, iffy actual durability.

[Loadsamoney]

Look, downtime doesn't matter that much to me since I'll usually be camping single mobs on a 6 minute respawn timer. At most I'll generally be getting 10 kills an hour, sometimes less if the mob is on a 12 or 24 minute cycle.

All I have to do is survive the fight. If the mob I'm fighting is on a 24 minute respawn timer, but I can win the fight and be ready when the next one spawns, that's good enough for me.

[Saisu]

Bizarre thread, seems like it could have been reworded “I am determined to melee on a bard and will not listen to answers”. That’s fine, but I’m not exactly sure what you’re expecting from this conversation thread? I’ll echo others, is it possible? Yes (with the understanding it is slow). Will you enjoy it? Who knows.

From my experience as a bard who started fresh on blue with no gear or coin, and went 1-58: I expected melee to be more prominent than it actually was. As you go up in levels, mobs just start trashing you (unless as stated by others, you are very twinked with fungi, high AC, etc). It quickly becomes apparent that it’s a slow and painful method, and in my opinion, a tragic underuse of the bard toolkit.

It’s like asking “can I be a melee Necromancer? I’ll snare and fear the mob, and then hit them with my staff!”. Well, yes I guess you physically could, but of course it’s a lackluster way to play a Necromancer. Go have a ball with it, but I don’t think I’d endorse it!

The joy of a bard is it is the only class in the game with instruments, a crazy big toolbox fit for any situation, and fun combinations and twists of songs. I found the class really clicked for me when I treated myself more as a caster and less like a melee. Use your speed to your advantage, and being able to “cast” while moving. Charm creatures, break camps, pull at the speed of light, lock down a bad pull with CC, or load up a mob with DoTs. All from a safe and cozy distance.

I’m telling you this because it sounds like you haven’t started or played a bard before - and I’d like to highlight the awesome things bards have going for them. I’d say plate is more fashion than function for me! At least until Saisu gets in some much stronger armor. So go into this knowing you *could* play melee combat, but you’ll almost always have better, more interesting options instead.

[Loadsamoney]

I'm kind of set in my ways because the Bard is classified as a Melee class, and wears plate and dual wields. To me, that screams melee, face tank, and big DPS, not a pseudocaster with crappy DPS and mitigation disguised behind plate. I played a Combat Bard in EQOA, and that's exactly how they were, big time melee DPS with nice group support via songs, and okay HP. If something is classified as a Melee class, to me, that means it's meant to beat on things.

Would Bard DPS be anything noteworthy if they had Double Attack and Kick in their toolkit?

[Naethyn]

You’re going to be disappointed.

[Wallicker]

I'm kind of set in my ways because the Bard is classified as a Melee class, and wears plate and dual wields. To me, that screams melee, face tank, and big DPS, not a pseudocaster with crappy DPS and mitigation disguised behind plate. I played a Combat Bard in EQOA, and that's exactly how they were, big time melee DPS with nice group support via songs, and okay HP. If something is classified as a Melee class, to me, that means it's meant to beat on things.

Would Bard DPS be anything noteworthy if they had Double Attack and Kick in their toolkit?

It would still be less than every other melee, once you get epic AND stack dots with 100% self haste while meleeing then you can do good DPS but not anything crazy

[Ligma]

Even after bards get double attack through AA in PoP their melee dps is pathetic. Hell, even after they get all the instrument mods that allow you to bag epic for crazy ratio weapons, it's pretty bad.

[Saisu]

I'm kind of set in my ways because the Bard is classified as a Melee class, and wears plate and dual wields. To me, that screams melee, face tank, and big DPS, not a pseudocaster with crappy DPS and mitigation disguised behind plate.

I don’t think the game or manuals ever classified bards as “melee”, I think Bards got shoehorned into the P99 forums here due to lack of any proper grouping (jack of all trades, master of none).

The single defining ability of the bard class is songs. It’s the only class that can “cast spells” while moving. The class has a dizzying list of abilities: levitate, breathing under water, fast movement, snare, haste, resistances, charm, lull, mesmerize, fear, pbAoE, DoTs, faction modifiers, HP Regen, Mana Regen, damage shield, etc etc etc.

Pretty much all buffs are meant to apply to a group, meaning by playing a stringed instrument you essentially give 6 people each a Fungi Tunic’s worth of regen, at the cost of no mana. The bard is an amplifier for a group, making everyone perform better. The bard is also a Swiss Army knife, able to fill in all sorts of roles as the demand arises.

Bards trade the power of raw-melee for the ability to be flexible and to potentially augment an entire group with generous buffs.

I can’t find the original classic EQ manual, but here’s what the creators have to say about bards in the Trilogy manual:

“The Bard has the unusual ability to play magical songs, whose supernatural effects last as long as the Bard continues to sing. He has some passing knowledge of the Warrior ways (self-defense), but his main focus is always on his art.”

[enjchanter]

You’re going to be disappointed.

i was disappointed

[gladeous]

Why would you mele when you can bring down an enemy faster with target dots and or charm at a safe distance resulting in much less down time.

[Adron]

Why would you mele when you can bring down an enemy faster with target dots and or charm at a safe distance resulting in much less down time.

On blue, the 10/18 and 14/24 weapon choices make it faster to melee down something that dot dot dot. I tested with two 10/18's, 34% haste, vs a walrus skin drum. not really that close. recover time is higher, but if you're doing a static spawn spot or two, thats not relevant, only how fast you down it and get the timer going.
So yes, on green, triple dot is faster, so you would. Not on blue with a 2.3 mod drum, at any rate. Reminder: bard dots do 2/3 dmg if target is moving, like anybody else's.

[Snaggles]

I'm kind of set in my ways...

We hadn’t noticed.

[gladeous]

On blue, the 10/18 and 14/24 weapon choices make it faster to melee down something that dot dot dot. I tested with two 10/18's, 34% haste, vs a walrus skin drum. not really that close. recover time is higher, but if you're doing a static spawn spot or two, thats not relevant, only how fast you down it and get the timer going.
So yes, on green, triple dot is faster, so you would. Not on blue with a 2.3 mod drum, at any rate. Reminder: bard dots do 2/3 dmg if target is moving, like anybody else's.

Great. Something to look forward to on green.

[Crede]

On blue, the 10/18 and 14/24 weapon choices make it faster to melee down something that dot dot dot. I tested with two 10/18's, 34% haste, vs a walrus skin drum. not really that close. recover time is higher, but if you're doing a static spawn spot or two, thats not relevant, only how fast you down it and get the timer going.
So yes, on green, triple dot is faster, so you would. Not on blue with a 2.3 mod drum, at any rate. Reminder: bard dots do 2/3 dmg if target is moving, like anybody else's.

Bards should be charming while loading up both mobs with dots. Melee is pitiful.

[Loadsamoney]

Bards should be charming while loading up both mobs with dots. Melee is pitiful.

On Green I believe this is because Bards are on a crappier melee table than they are on Blue. Their melee parse table got changed either in Kunark or Velious.

[Keebz]

On Green I believe this is because Bards are on a crappier melee table than they are on Blue. Their melee parse table got changed either in Kunark or Velious.

It got changed as of Chardok 2.0, the last patch in the timeline. Adron was also using near rather excellent droppable weapons / haste and comparing against a mediocre drum. Also, it didn't sound like fear was used to do full dot damage. That being said, the comparison is valid for blue at this point in the timeline assuming you just want to kill a single spawn as fast as possible (a somewhat contrived situation).

Nonetheless, charm kiting is just fundamentally more powerful than meleeing. Mobs deal way way more damage, and you get to kill two (or more even) mobs at the same time. This is true on green and blue.

[Wallicker]

On blue, the 10/18 and 14/24 weapon choices make it faster to melee down something that dot dot dot. I tested with two 10/18's, 34% haste, vs a walrus skin drum. not really that close. recover time is higher, but if you're doing a static spawn spot or two, thats not relevant, only how fast you down it and get the timer going.
So yes, on green, triple dot is faster, so you would. Not on blue with a 2.3 mod drum, at any rate. Reminder: bard dots do 2/3 dmg if target is moving, like anybody else's.

Fear kiting negates this, for example a 46 bard using 3 drum dots snare and fear can kill all 12 BG goblins before repops one at a time, the damage output is greater than splurt and completely mana free to give you idea. If you really wanna be a masochist - buy or farm drums of the beast and lute of the howler, you can swap instrument in for your primary weapon right before tic lands then right back. The most fun thing to do however is equip a dwarven two handed axe go /role and War LFG

[kjs86z]

I'm kind of set in my ways because the Bard is classified as a Melee class, and wears plate and dual wields. To me, that screams melee, face tank, and big DPS, not a pseudocaster with crappy DPS and mitigation disguised behind plate. I played a Combat Bard in EQOA, and that's exactly how they were, big time melee DPS with nice group support via songs, and okay HP. If something is classified as a Melee class, to me, that means it's meant to beat on things.


Well here on P99 bards are not what you remember them as.

You're being overly stubborn...for what? So you can kill 1 mob every 6 mins and burn out before hitting level 45?

The closest thing you can get to what you're looking for is a Ranger. Their melee damage isn't the greatest but you'll have that support feel with their buffs, pulling utility, etc.

Bards are without a doubt the toughest class to play well. I don't want to be the bad guy here, but your attitude / approach towards the game is going to severely limit your enjoyment of playing the bard class.

[Loadsamoney]

You guys are making me not want to play Bard at this rate. I wanted to play it like a Hybrid. Beat things to death with a bit of support magic on the side.

But if that's not gonna fly, then I may as well go Ranger like I was originally planning. The gear I have put aside will fit the Ranger as well, only the weapons will differ: Lamentation x2 and Talisen, Bow of the Trailblazer.

Actually, I've got a full set of Crystal Chitin now, so that would probably go to the Ranger instead, and my Paladin would go back to using his old crap until I start filling it in with Thurgadin gear.

[Saisu]

I’m not trying to be a storm cloud of negativity, just sharing firsthand experience so you can know what you’re in for. Based on you having a Paladin for a main, and wanting to “beat things to death with a bit of support magic on the side” you’re basically looking at either Shadow Knight or Ranger. Ranger will dish out much more damage, and should scratch your itch for dual wielding, double attacking, and gearing for melee damage.

[Sabin76]

I mean Bard seems to be far more on the "caster" side of the hybrid equation than the "melee" side. I think you may be too narrow on what "hybrid" means.

[mattydef]

I've always liked to think of my bard as an enchanter that gets to wear plate armor and dual wield swords, that always helped whenever I felt inadequate fighting stuff. I also like to think of him as more of a Bladesinger than a bard, but that's just the RP in me talking.

[Issar]

When I leveled my second bard, I went Melee mostly when soloing until 40. I would occasionally kite to push through hell levels a bit.

After that it was a lot of charming because I really began to enjoy the play style. When Mana got low I would either afk med or fear kite, mostly dots. The only downtime I had was when I wanted it.

For me, the biggest appeal to the bard is the diverse skillset, which allows for the most play styles of any class in the game by a long shot. If you look at it this way, you have four or five ways of soloing and only one that costs Mana. You also have the ability to cc, pull, tank and buff in groups. Good bards recognize what to do when the time calls for it in any group and you really won't ever be doing just one of these things, in most cases.

[Zipity]

Bard can solo guardian Kozz naked with no mana. Just sayin.

[greenspectre]

You guys are making me not want to play Bard at this rate. I wanted to play it like a Hybrid. Beat things to death with a bit of support magic on the side.

But if that's not gonna fly, then I may as well go Ranger like I was originally planning. The gear I have put aside will fit the Ranger as well, only the weapons will differ: Lamentation x2 and Talisen, Bow of the Trailblazer.

Actually, I've got a full set of Crystal Chitin now, so that would probably go to the Ranger instead, and my Paladin would go back to using his old crap until I start filling it in with Thurgadin gear.

Honestly that seems like the wisest decision if that's your preferred playstyle. Ranger with a slow weapon, maybe eventually get your PoSky cloak, and you're basically playing the character you're describing that you want to play.

Or just roll the bard and play it. Once you hit the point melee doesn't become as good, you might find you enjoy the other things a bard can do. I started a bard on blue intending to play melee, but once I learned how to swarm kite I didn't look back. Moot point since I only got him to 22, but still.

Even my shaman melees better than a bard with a solid 2hb and DoT's/pet going.

[darkreap]

Bard melee isn't terrible until about 40 when all the other classes start to pull away because of double attack. You must remember that a bard is a utility class and not a dps or tank traditionally. That being said, if you become good at the class, they can do more solo than most other classes. Between mezzing, charming, kiting (hate swarming) and fear kiting you will have more than enough tools in your bag to get just about anything done by yourself. Not to mention tracking is invaluable when doing cycle camps or quillmane.

[elkboot]

In my experience bard melee is pretty bad without some hefty items, but it makes sense. Imagine a minstrel trying to fight a mammoth the same way a mighty warrior would. Breaks your lute and your skull. RIP

[Zipity]

60 bard does about 50-70 DPS to AoW depending on buffs w/ tunare dagger and epic. This does not include the huge damage shield you can provide to Main tank.

[jolanar]

People focus on the high levels too much.

Make a twinked bard and have a blast leveling it as melee until it's no longer effective and then move on to something else.

Bards are probably the best twink from 1 to 20 because they get access to such powerful spells so early on.

Maybe even 1 to 30 because the dots will make up for lack of double attack for a while after 20.

You will start to struggle after 30 without a fungi and probably won't have much success meleeing after 40 but who cares if it's fun along the way.

[Zipity]

Once you get epic everything changes, at 60 you can churn through low blues like butter and never lose hp, bards also have access to the highest self buffed atk rating in the game so if you gear right you will enjoy tons of max hit rounds, it’s very much possible to melee to 60 if you are heavily twinkled and even easier if you have epic

[Tunabros]

get string instrument
play mana/regen song
afk

[enjchanter]

Yeah if you dont have an epic on your bard i wouldnt bother melee'ing at all

the alternative is swapping in your instruments as the songs are landing which is basically annoying as fuck

if you ahve epic your proc is worht it

[Jauna]

Any bard while leveling up sitting on their ass just playing songs is a waste of a spot.
Instrumented songs are pretty overhyped and only noticeable with regen and selos. no one will notice 10-20 extra str from a bard in their damage

In raids however people will want you twisting mana song for a group of 5 casters. or in the main tank group boosting resists

But anyone currently in this thread are old and cant change instruments fast but still think they matter while leveling up and LARPing as someone who matters. If you want to sit back and still do good, roll an enchanter. I loved both my bards on blue and had a fucking blast leveling up either by chain pulling like a champ, or tanking low-non raid stuff I enjoyed my enchanter much more. charming chanter is often the highest dps, mana regener and mez better than a bard

[Zipity]

Any bard while leveling up sitting on their ass just playing songs is a waste of a spot.
Instrumented songs are pretty overhyped and only noticeable with regen and selos. no one will notice 10-20 extra str from a bard in their damage

In raids however people will want you twisting mana song for a group of 5 casters. or in the main tank group boosting resists

But anyone currently in this thread are old and cant change instruments fast but still think they matter while leveling up and LARPing as someone who matters. If you want to sit back and still do good, roll an enchanter. I loved both my bards on blue and had a fucking blast leveling up either by chain pulling like a champ, or tanking low-non raid stuff I enjoyed my enchanter much more. charming chanter is often the highest dps, mana regener and mez better than a bard

Pertinent Songs positively affected by instruments:
Cantana(needs instrument lower lvls)
Regen
Atk/damage shield
Resists
Selos
Dots
Pbaoe snare
Invis
Mana sieve
Lev
Rune
Nivs

At low lvls having your instrument out for regen/cantana alone is better than weapons in most groups, and obviously for swarm kiting, charm killing, root rot duoing, pulling with or without eye of zomm. Ideally you can swap a lute of howler in for primary right before cantana regen lands you can melee. If you have to choose bw Just instruments or weapons instruments come ahead pretty much always unless fear kiting(and even then it’s close without super good ratios) until you get your epic.

Also bard mana regen crushes an enchanters you obviously don’t know what the fuck you are talking about.

[Jauna]

Pertinent Songs positively affected by instruments:
Cantana(needs instrument lower lvls)
Regen
Atk/damage shield
Resists
Selos
Dots
Pbaoe snare
Invis
Mana sieve
Lev
Rune
Nivs

At low lvls having your instrument out for regen/cantana alone is better than weapons in most groups, and obviously for swarm kiting, charm killing, root rot duoing, pulling with or without eye of zomm. Ideally you can swap a lute of howler in for primary right before cantana regen lands you can melee. If you have to choose bw Just instruments or weapons instruments come ahead pretty much always unless fear kiting(and even then it’s close without super good ratios) until you get your epic.

Also bard mana regen crushes an enchanters you obviously don’t know what the fuck you are talking about.

level 34 Cantina - nice for afk downtime but actual rotation in combat? stop
Regen - While nice, mostly best for downtime. never once did a 6 second server tick of, an example, 15-30 hp ever made a difference, and if it did remember the % chances all over for it to matter vs you sitting back not meleeing
resists - not very useful while leveling, but great in raids
selos - im starting to think you didnt read my post
dots - while great, they very rarely tick all the way through to full duration when exping in a group.
pbaoe snare - the movement speed is improved with instrument, however the attack speed slow is fixed
invis - if i knew what pedantic meant i might use it here
drain mana - again, raid situation
lev - see invis. not see invis, but look up to the see invis line
rune - since runes are like 50~ damage i never once considered the thought that instruments might help
nivs - Singing skill, only the epic will boost it

Again, if you are not versatile to adapt to situations. dont play a bard. you wont always melee, you wont always sit back and cantina a group, you wont always be in the main tank group, you wont always be in the 5 ranger group buffing them to high fuck getting exp all throughout PoG as the regens come alive to keep everyone going as you go /anon and someone catches you being a bard and a group of necros wants a battery asking, begging and threatening to come into their group but you are just too god damn happy watching everyones health regen so fast and your resist and atk/str songs are at their maximum effect wait im babbling. Again, if you think a bard always does one job at all times, go play something else.

To anyone who is currently reading: Do you even have "target nearest outward" bound to anything so they can start singing mez and switch back to the attack target on the fly? Not tab targeting. Bound mine to tilde since assist macros dont work while casting.

[Zipity]

level 34 Cantina - nice for afk downtime but actual rotation in combat? stop
Regen - While nice, mostly best for downtime. never once did a 6 second server tick of, an example, 15-30 hp ever made a difference, and if it did remember the % chances all over for it to matter vs you sitting back not meleeing
resists - not very useful while leveling, but great in raids
selos - im starting to think you didnt read my post
dots - while great, they very rarely tick all the way through to full duration when exping in a group.
pbaoe snare - the movement speed is improved with instrument, however the attack speed slow is fixed
invis - if i knew what pedantic meant i might use it here
drain mana - again, raid situation
lev - see invis. not see invis, but look up to the see invis line
rune - since runes are like 50~ damage i never once considered the thought that instruments might help
nivs - Singing skill, only the epic will boost it

Again, if you are not versatile to adapt to situations. dont play a bard. you wont always melee, you wont always sit back and cantina a group, you wont always be in the main tank group, you wont always be in the 5 ranger group buffing them to high fuck getting exp all throughout PoG as the regens come alive to keep everyone going as you go /anon and someone catches you being a bard and a group of necros wants a battery asking, begging and threatening to come into their group but you are just too god damn happy watching everyones health regen so fast and your resist and atk/str songs are at their maximum effect wait im babbling. Again, if you think a bard always does one job at all times, go play something else.

To anyone who is currently reading: Do you even have "target nearest outward" bound to anything so they can start singing mez and switch back to the attack target on the fly? Not tab targeting. Bound mine to tilde since assist macros dont work while casting.

We should just duel on our bards or setup some kind of bard solo artist challenge so I can make you look dumb

[Dreenk317]

level 34 Cantina - nice for afk downtime but actual rotation in combat? stop
Regen - While nice, mostly best for downtime. never once did a 6 second server tick of, an example, 15-30 hp ever made a difference, and if it did remember the % chances all over for it to matter vs you sitting back not meleeing
resists - not very useful while leveling, but great in raids
selos - im starting to think you didnt read my post
dots - while great, they very rarely tick all the way through to full duration when exping in a group.
pbaoe snare - the movement speed is improved with instrument, however the attack speed slow is fixed
invis - if i knew what pedantic meant i might use it here
drain mana - again, raid situation
lev - see invis. not see invis, but look up to the see invis line
rune - since runes are like 50~ damage i never once considered the thought that instruments might help
nivs - Singing skill, only the epic will boost it

Again, if you are not versatile to adapt to situations. dont play a bard. you wont always melee, you wont always sit back and cantina a group, you wont always be in the main tank group, you wont always be in the 5 ranger group buffing them to high fuck getting exp all throughout PoG as the regens come alive to keep everyone going as you go /anon and someone catches you being a bard and a group of necros wants a battery asking, begging and threatening to come into their group but you are just too god damn happy watching everyones health regen so fast and your resist and atk/str songs are at their maximum effect wait im babbling. Again, if you think a bard always does one job at all times, go play something else.

To anyone who is currently reading: Do you even have "target nearest outward" bound to anything so they can start singing mez and switch back to the attack target on the fly? Not tab targeting. Bound mine to tilde since assist macros dont work while casting.

Cantana during combat is super useful both for mana regen, and also for healing up people that aren't at 100% but also aren't taking damage. Save the healers mana. Also, bard DS is massive. With instruments, can easily be roughly 50 damage per hit, which is significant. Also, many bard songs up stats, and ATK, which every rogue will love you for.

But ya, bards suck in groups and shouldn't play songs? Ok.

[Bardp1999]

On Green Bards will soon be shunned from all XP groups 50-60

[Zipity]

On Green Bards will soon be shunned from all XP groups 50-60

What lol I’d say bard is probably the most valuable hybrid that can actually pull its extra 40% penalty in a group.

[Bardp1999]

What lol I’d say bard is probably the most valuable hybrid that can actually pull its extra 40% penalty in a group.

Kunark hurts bards in a big way in my opinion. Only Hybrids that are going to be welcomed are tanks.

[Issar]

Bards who carry around bags of gear can be surprisingly good tanks. They have the added benefits great of aggro and really strong CC abilities while tanking.

[Borak]

Yeah, as a relative newb to P99 in 2013 (still Kunark, still hybrid penalty), I leveled my bard in Seb from 56 to 60 in Mystic Koada'Dal gear (which I managed to afford thanks to a lucky find of an iksar BP) and tanked a bit in that gear. Not the greatest gear but pretty damn good for leveling up.

Also, bards make otherwise broken groups at least functional. For example, a group with necro main healer. Hell, I remember a group at ABC in Sebilis, where it was my bard, 3 rogues and a cleric. I was puller, tank, cc, haster, slower, snarer etc. People ask, who forms a group like this? No one, but people come and go, and suddenly that's what you're left with, and I made it work for another 3 hours.

That's what a bard does for your group.

[Dreenk317]

Ya good bard is great and can fill many roles. Best exp group i was ever in was a shaman, 2 rogues, and my bard. I was pulls/cc/tank, and the exp flew.