I'm all for stopping recharging, but it is really unclassic to destroy clickies

[Teddie1056]

Back on classic I had a root net for emergencies. Now the root net is completely useless. There already was a cast-time root item that dropped in Crystal Caverns.

I get ending recharging. It feels more like an exploit than an intended mechanic. But instant use clickies were intended to be as such.

So make the Midnight Mallet not inventory usable, but don't make it have a cast time.

Make the root nets cost 1000pp to recharge, but leave them instant.

[Baler]

I feel like there was already a dozen threads about this.

guilds/players abused clickies, staff took notice(lol), nerfed clickies to give the server a more 'classic feel'.

BTW does AG still have a mallet mule parked in innothule corpsing mallets?

[Teddie1056]

Staff took notice? We'd been using clickies for 10 years here. It was 100% condoned and expected strategy. No guild on the server was avoiding clickies for some moral high ground.

And I am fine with nerfing recharging, I doubt that was an intended mechanic.

But how is using clickies abusing them?

Make them rechargable and nerf the spawn rate.

[Baler]

just to be clear i'm not trying to justify this change to clickies, I think it's BS.

So from what I understand staff decided that only a certain amount of people used clickies back in the day on live classic. On p99 way more people use clickies in this way so they changed it to give a more classic feel in their opinion. paraphrasing not quoting.

This is the same reason they refuse to recreate classic exploits. Only a small number of people knew about them back in the day. They would be used by way more people on p99.

Long story short they're re-creating the classic feel not the classic game. And hense the term Selectively Classic was coined.

[jolanar]

Have they gone on record about why they made the recharge change?

[loramin]

Have they gone on record about why they made the recharge change?

From the second-most-recent patch message (this part was hidden with "spoiler" tags, but I removed them to make the quote readable).

Item Changes
The staff has been keeping an eye on how recharging has been affecting the use of various items on the server. Recharging is a mechanic that existed in Classic but was not very widely known or utilized. While this is not an issue in most cases, there are a few cases of it now being abused. Some examples of these items being used in a very unclassic and unintended way is an entire raid force using bags worth of an instant cast direct damage click items to blast a raid mob dead in less than a minute. Another situation is the use of these items to bypass the normal hate/aggro building mechanics of the game. Yet another case is the use of certain items to allow a low level player to defeat large groups of higher level mobs, effectively solo powerlevelling.

All of these are only possible because of the Recharge system, since it is simply a matter of cost (in some cases a very low cost) of being able to restore the max charges of the item. However, the staff has had several discussions and does not feel that disabling Recharging would be the right action to take at this time. Instead, we feel that it is better to identify the specific items that are being abused, and make balancing changes to them. This includes changing the buyback price (and in one case removing the ability to sell the item to merchants), and adding cast times to some of the items.

[magnetaress]

Never had a root net but I am sorry you dont have one now furry footed warrior person.

[branamil]

P99 selectively classic.

They should have just gotten rid of recharges and made soul fire equip only. But they completely changed how the items work and it's not classic

[Ennewi]

"Amendments to the constitution. Selectively patriotic."

[Croco]

"Amendments to the constitution. Selectively patriotic."

False equivalency much? This is more like taking current amendments and rewriting them because reasons.

With every change like this we stray further and further from the supposed classic goal of the project. Nothing about this is classic. Recharging is classic, clickies are classic. They might not have been ubiquitous but that's completely irrelevant. This is the staff deciding retroactively to make a 100% non-classic change for no reason in particular.

[pogs4ever]

Feels closer classic to my 99 experience.

[sunbask]

It'd be cool if they kept blue the same, but nerfed green.

Green is fresh so noone gets to take advantage of clicky power, and it starts fair.

[Croco]

Feels closer classic to my 99 experience.

Just because you didn't know it was happening in '99, '00, or '01 doesn't mean it wasn't. Your remembered experience is anecdotal.

[Fammaden]

Your remembered experience is anecdotal.

So is yours.

Different servers had different metas, how much clicky usage and how much recharging wasn't uniform across all servers, but the overall knowledge and frequency of use as raid tools did not match P99's...hence the changes. The staff is open to evidence, you have some links showing discussion that proves widespread spamming of midnight mallets for snap warrior aggro, then submit it and get things reverted.

[magnetaress]

We'd be better off in a highly disciplined and well ordered society that did not require a piece of paper to help the power elites to wipe thier own assets with.

[Ennewi]

False equivalency much? This is more like taking current amendments and rewriting them because reasons.

With every change like this we stray further and further from the supposed classic goal of the project. Nothing about this is classic. Recharging is classic, clickies are classic. They might not have been ubiquitous but that's completely irrelevant. This is the staff deciding retroactively to make a 100% non-classic change for no reason in particular.

https://everquest.allakhazam.com/history/patches-2001-1.html

- The spell, Mark of Karn, has been enhanced to heal more per hit.
- The effect on the Celestial Elixir Breastplates has been changed to
the enhanced Mark of Karn. The casting time on these items has also
been changed to 9 seconds

https://everquest.allakhazam.com/db/item.html?item=4952

Had to say it.
Quote
Reply
#Feb 26 2001 at 6:30 PMRating: Decent
Anonymous
Anonymous
They nerfed the CH from Donnal's Breastplate and now come up with this new bad boy of a BP(Kael quests beats the shizznit off of planar armor. No one else finds that... wrong?).

Expect this 'plate to get nerfed, expect people to complain loudly, expect Verant to never learn.

The item was used by players, and then deemed too powerful. So you really want to argue that rechargeable clickies weren't of equal or greater power and, if they were/are, that the original developers wouldn't have nerfed them for the same reasons? Even original players like the one above knew the mindset of the devs, at least enough to anticipate nerfs before each patch day.

Patches. Amendments.

[Ennewi]

From the same link...

RE: Had to say it.
Quote
Reply
#Apr 11 2001 at 1:34 PMRating: Decent
Anonymous
Anonymous
Personally, I understand perfectly why the Donal's BP was nerfed. My beef with Verant is not about that specifically. I just think they're stupid for releasing all these Cleric BP's without putting much thought into what can be done with them. C'mon...a BP that clickies for CH?!?! You can't tell me you thought they'd let that stay in...
What Verant REALLY needs to do is put some DEEP thought into what they do to keep the classes balanced. They keep putting things in that make one class too powerful solo, or too powerful in a particular situation (Like the Cleric and Tank taking out that turtle).
I am not upset with them for nerfing our armor, I am upset with them for ALLOWING it in the game to begin with when any reasonably intelligent person can see that it will eventually HAVE TO BE nerfed.

Just my 2cp there...

Jarochai Alabaster
30th Cleric of Underfoot
Proud member of Exile
Brell Server

...which isn't a roundabout way of also bashing staff here. Players, like the one above, failed to appreciate everything else the devs were working on. That you are echoing a very similar complaint those players made just adds to the classic experience of these forums. It's hard to know how certain things will play out in a game, especially if that game is the first of its kind. The test server helped, as did Project1999 Blue, but there are still kinks to work out as is the case with most everything man-made.

[Croco]

So is yours.

Different servers had different metas, how much clicky usage and how much recharging wasn't uniform across all servers, but the overall knowledge and frequency of use as raid tools did not match P99's...hence the changes. The staff is open to evidence, you have some links showing discussion that proves widespread spamming of midnight mallets for snap warrior aggro, then submit it and get things reverted.

I'm not talking about my remembered experience. I'm talking about documented fact. Like I said just because it wasn't ubiquitous across all servers and all guilds is completely irrelevant. Top guilds used these strats back in the day and it's documented. The burden of proof isn't on p99 players, the evidence already exists. Obviously player behavior is going to be different on p99 than it was back in the day. We literally have all the information. You can't put toothpaste back in the tube.

https://everquest.allakhazam.com/history/patches-2001-1.html



https://everquest.allakhazam.com/db/item.html?item=4952



The item was used by players, and then deemed too powerful. So you really want to argue that rechargeable clickies weren't of equal or greater power and, if they were/are, that the original developers wouldn't have nerfed them for the same reasons? Even original players like the one above knew the mindset of the devs, at least enough to anticipate nerfs before each patch day.

Patches. Amendments.

If your intention was to make me waste time looking through that huge patch list that doesn't have anything to do with clickies congrats you got me.

I'm not arguing that anything is or isn't of greater or lesser power I'm arguing that it literally doesn't matter. Our playbox is a server that is literally frozen in time. We know everything that was and wasn't happening at that time. It doesn't matter what the devs would or wouldn't have done if they'd had the chance or had more time to gauge what players were doing. All of that is completely irrelevant.

There is no guess work. No wondering how things will play out. We are literally time locked. Things are either classic, meaning they happened and were able to happen at that time, or they aren't. This isn't like how different supreme court justices interpret the constitution. There is no interpretation needed. Everything is known. All the knowledge exists. So changing something so that it works differently than it did during the classic era is by definition not classic.

[Ennewi]

If your intention was to make me waste time looking through that huge patch list that doesn't have anything to do with clickies congrats you got me.

I'm not arguing that anything is or isn't of greater or lesser power I'm arguing that it literally doesn't matter. Our playbox is a server that is literally frozen in time. We know everything that was and wasn't happening at that time. It doesn't matter what the devs would or wouldn't have done if they'd had the chance or had more time to gauge what players were doing. All of that is completely irrelevant.

There is no guess work. No wondering how things will play out. We are literally time locked. Things are either classic, meaning they happened and were able to happen at that time, or they aren't. This isn't like how different supreme court justices interpret the constitution. There is no interpretation needed. Everything is known. All the knowledge exists. So changing something so that it works differently than it did during the classic era is by definition not classic.

Than make your own time capsule server? But then you would have to include each and every single bug, otherwise it could be considered "selectively classic" as well. The bug that caused players zoning into Mistmoore to be pushed back out into Lfay until the previous player who zoned in before them moved. The bug that caused coin to be destroyed when players accidentally clicked the amount onto the banker instead of into the bank slot. The bug that removed "auto-aim" (https://web.archive.org/web/20000815212717/http://boards.station.sony.com/everquest/Forum2/HTML/003933.html) from archery.

Most here are willing to accept a gray area that has the right feel, one they remember EverQuest gave. If you want black and white, absolute classic, good luck recreating that because the original developers were constantly making changes, even some that went without mention in the patch notes, and for good reason.

https://web.archive.org/web/20000511230703/http://www.neriak.com/

New Patch for 6-6-00 Explained by the EQ team [News] ·· 06-06-2000 at 12:32 PM ··

Risk and Reward

The concept of risk and reward is very important to the game of EverQuest. Ideally, situations that provide a greater reward should also provide substantial risk. Over the past several weeks, we've been identifying areas in game where risk and reward are at a disparity, and making necessary adjustments.

In most cases, those adjustments are in favor of increasing the reward for a specific action. For example, we recently increased the experience awarded in many Kunark zones to offset the sometimes-considerable risk associated with adventuring there. We also do this quite frequently by increasing the reward associated with a quest by enhancing the item, as we did last week with the Burning Rapier quest.

However, in some cases there are instances where reward is far in excess of the risk involved, and we will be correcting these issues like those above as we come across them. For example, there are many cases where a solitary and stationary outdoor creature has a "fast spawn", yielding the reward of fast experience-gain without the commensurate risk.

Though it is not our policy to announce changes to individual NPCs, we did want to let you know that you will see risk/reward disparities corrected over the next several weeks.

- The EverQuest Team

- Kenamael

To you that might not matter, it might be completely irrelevant, but for others it is essential to what made the game fun/memorable and unlike countless other MMOs that followed it.

[Ennewi]

I'm not talking about my remembered experience. I'm talking about documented fact. Like I said just because it wasn't ubiquitous across all servers and all guilds is completely irrelevant. Top guilds used these strats back in the day and it's documented. The burden of proof isn't on p99 players, the evidence already exists. Obviously player behavior is going to be different on p99 than it was back in the day. We literally have all the information. You can't put toothpaste back in the tube.

https://www.instructables.com/id/How-to-Put-Toothpaste-Back-in-the-Tube/

[Croco]

Than make your own time capsule server? But then you would have to include each and every single bug, otherwise it could be considered "selectively classic" as well. The bug that caused players zoning into Mistmoore to be pushed back out into Lfay until the previous player who zoned in before them moved. The bug that caused coin to be destroyed when players accidentally clicked the amount onto the banker instead of into the bank slot. The bug that removed "auto-aim" (https://web.archive.org/web/20000815212717/http://boards.station.sony.com/everquest/Forum2/HTML/003933.html) from archery.

Most here are willing to accept a gray area that has the right feel, one they remember EverQuest gave. If you want black and white, absolute classic, good luck recreating that because the original developers were constantly making changes, even some that went without mention in the patch notes, and for good reason.

https://web.archive.org/web/20000511230703/http://www.neriak.com/



To you that might not matter, it might be completely irrelevant, but for others it is essential to what made the game fun/memorable and unlike countless other MMOs that followed it.

You have hit the proverbial nail on the head. That is the point I and many others who've posted in this and other threads are trying to make. If you want to say that this server is attempting to recreate the feel of classic without being actually classic that is one thing but from everything I've seen and heard the goal of the project was "classic everquest", and there have been innumerable changes at this point away from that.

This hasn't been a pure classic server for a long long time. Personally I think all those bugs should exist as long as they weren't fixed within the time lock of the server. As far as gray area goes everyone accepts it because we literally can't do anything about it. The slope has long been slippery and going downhill more and more. If a non-classic change will help the staff it's put in but many many things that players have utilized, even if they are verifiably classic have been changed or removed.

This is just one more thing in a lot list of things that push the server further from classic. Some people are fine with it, and some like myself and others would rather they stop tinkering and adding non-classic changes according to their random whims.

[Ennewi]

You have hit the proverbial nail on the head. That is the point I and many others who've posted in this and other threads are trying to make. If you want to say that this server is attempting to recreate the feel of classic without being actually classic that is one thing but from everything I've seen and heard the goal of the project was "classic everquest", and there have been innumerable changes at this point away from that.

This hasn't been a pure classic server for a long long time. Personally I think all those bugs should exist as long as they weren't fixed within the time lock of the server. As far as gray area goes everyone accepts it because we literally can't do anything about it. The slope has long been slippery and going downhill more and more. If a non-classic change will help the staff it's put in but many many things that players have utilized, even if they are verifiably classic have been changed or removed.

This is just one more thing in a lot list of things that push the server further from classic. Some people are fine with it, and some like myself and others would rather they stop tinkering and adding non-classic changes according to their random whims.

If you use the word "literally" one more time, you might just get added to the ignore list. Literally.

First, we don't have all of the information. However, second, we can do something about that by researching and putting forth evidence, as Fammaden suggested. But be prepared to say goodbye to more than a few hours of your life online following rabbit holes that often have no rabbits or only partial rabbits in them. And even with all of that time dedicated to researching, there are still finer details that have been lost in the time between now and then. No amount of coffee and keyboard pecking will get all of the game back unfortunately. That classic "to a t" trilogy can't exist because we were an intrinsic part of it just as we are now a part of Project1999. Perfection is a moving target.

[Croco]

If you use the word "literally" one more time, you might just get added to the ignore list. Literally.

First, we don't have all of the information. However, second, we can do something about that by researching and putting forth evidence, as Fammaden suggested. But be prepared to say goodbye to more than a few hours of your life online following rabbit holes that often have no rabbits or only partial rabbits in them. And even with all of that time dedicated to researching, there are still finer details that have been lost in the time between now and then. No amount of coffee and keyboard pecking will get all of the game back unfortunately. That classic "to a t" trilogy can't exist because we were an intrinsic part of it just as we are now a part of Project1999. Perfection is a moving target.

Literally?

[Ennewi]

Literally?

https://youtu.be/6ly1UTgiBXM

[Tobius]

So “abusing” this mechanic made raiding easier, theoretically making raids quicker or requiring less powerful raid forces/numbers.

So once again a changes that favours no lifers and neckbeard neets who can farm plat for epic items and zerg raids in greater numbers or sock for longer or whatever it takes to make up this shortfall.

Yet broken TT, broken casters and so on remain in place. Bah.

I'm for classic feel over classic mechanics but there's other ways this server isn't like classic they don't address like certain zones being empty certain race class combos never being used like they were on live.

They only seem to change things in a way that makes things harder for casuals.

Whatever it's free to play blah blah blah.

It's just like every patch note elicits a sigh.

[jolanar]

I find it hilarious that they make these kinds of changes but stuff like combat bind wound is still in the game.

I wonder how much time they spend inside P99 playing at this point. I feel like they've lost the wonder a long time ago and see it more of a chore to maintain than anything.

[magnetaress]

Nerf all clickies

*chomps donals bp*