Proposed amendment to Scout Roll

[LazyHydras]

Level 55+



Thoughts? Do we still need welfare near-BiS loot on our 9th alts?

[sydbarrett25]

Sure, I am down with having it 60 only, but who cares about my opinion

[Jimjam]

Make it 52s only. This is naggy/vox gear.

60s that want serious gear should go to tov.

[loramin]

The forum's a good place to start building consensus, but if you really want to change the rules you have to convince everyone "on the ground" to buy in.

Even if you get 100% of the people in a forum poll to agree to a change, that won't actually change the agreement, because agreements are determined by (in-game) players.

[Dithien]

52 plus makes sense, although how many sub 52’s actually show up?

[Tilien]

The forum's a good place to start building consensus, but if you really want to change the rules you have to convince everyone "on the ground" to buy in.

Even if you get 100% of the people in a forum poll to agree to a change, that won't actually change the agreement, because agreements are determined by (in-game) players.

Which is weird because if it's GM enforced how can it change roll-to-roll. If everyone but 1 person who show up decide not to help in the fight because the winner is 50 does that mean the other 30 people are going to eat a suspension? Or does that 1 person eat a suspension for turning in?

If there are GM enforced agreements they should be formally determined, or else don't have them be GM enforced.

Having them determined by the people who show up AND having them GM enforced is a bad combination.

[loramin]

Which is weird because if it's GM enforced how can it change roll-to-roll. If everyone but 1 person who show up decide not to help in the fight because the winner is 50 does that mean the other 30 people are going to eat a suspension? Or does that 1 person eat a suspension for turning in?

If there are GM enforced agreements they should be formally determined, or else don't have them be GM enforced.

Having them determined by the people who show up AND having them GM enforced is a bad combination.

You're welcome to ask for a refund ;) But look, this is how the staff does it. They make the players work things out amongst themselves, and then once that's happened they enforce whatever the players agree on.

Honestly it seems like a pretty reasonable way to handle things given that it A) doesn't force anything on the players they don't want, and B) saves the staff the time/hassle of having to come up with rules that all the players can agree to.

Remember, the staff aren't paid Verant employees: they are random people like you and me, who volunteer their time not playing a game so that the rest of us do get to play that game (with enforced rules). Everything is, and should be, optimized for them first (not us).

[Tilien]

You're welcome to ask for a refund ;) But look, this is how the staff does it. They make the players work things out amongst themselves, and then once that's happened they enforce whatever the players agree on.

Honestly it seems like a pretty reasonable way to handle things given that it A) doesn't force anything on the players they don't want, and B) saves the staff the time/hassle of having to come up with rules that all the players can agree to.

Remember, the staff aren't paid Verant employees: they are random people like you and me, who volunteer their time not playing a game so that the rest of us do get to play that game (with enforced rules). Everything is, and should be, optimized for them first (not us).

I was never saying the staff should comply with a certain rule set, but rather llandris had a post saying the staff would enforce certain player agreements which seems to flag them as more "special" than working out a camp dispute.

If there is no "specialness" to the agreement it would be nice for the staff to say so, is all.

Trying to coerce people to run a roll in 2 different ways and petitioning seems like a lot more work for the staff than to simply say "this is the agreement."

[GnomeLuvr]

Obviously, OP is just trying to increase his odds at winning.

If someone does the work to get the faction, get the tools, and get a succor, then in my opinion they have as much right to roll as anyone else. And, yes, if the agreement is that everyone else that shows up to roll helps with the fight, then so be it.

The server has been capped at Velious long enough that most people who show up for scout rolls are rolling for alts. If it's such a big deal to exclude people from the roll, how about we petition the GMs to change the scout quest to only one time per account? Or maybe only allow toons with more than four vowels but less than 7 vowels in their names have a chance? Or maybe break it down by class/race, so that only one combination per day be allowed to roll? Or, better yet, if the current agreement doesn't work in your favor, and you don't like the odds, just don't show up. And if you do show up, don't be a sore loser if you don't win the roll.

I have not done this quest on any of my characters. I would certainly like to have the quest reward on some of my toons, but not so much that I would deny anyone else of the opportunity to get it, regardless of their level.

[Xulia]

Anecdotal, but I have witnessed multiple people outright refuse to participate in Scout Roll pulls if the winner is sub-50. If you believe this anecdote then it illustrates a mentality people already have regarding this loot, namely that they aren't willing to sacrifice their time so someone's level 30 useless at a raid alt can get high-tier gear.

The beauty is that this isn't strictly against the rules and it sends a pretty clear message without the need for direct GM involvement: No low levels unless you bring your own force.

[kaizersoze]

Or just add a level 46 level requirement to zone into SG :)

[loramin]

Or just add a level 46 level requirement to zone into SG :)

It'd be no less classic than the current version (which doesn't let you "camp glitch" through it ... the way you could on live well into PoP).

[WandersX2]

What if exp group just loots it. F roll! Just like Angry Goblin! That would be so cool.

[ScottBerta]

Why the hell do people care so much? So what if a lvl 46 wins the roll? Good for him or her. Show up next time and good luck.

[Swish]

"Lets change it so my odds are improved"

(every "new scout rules proposal" since the first thread was made)

[LazyHydras]

Obviously, OP is just trying to increase his odds at winning.

If someone does the work to get the faction, get the tools, and get a succor, then in my opinion they have as much right to roll as anyone else. And, yes, if the agreement is that everyone else that shows up to roll helps with the fight, then so be it.

The server has been capped at Velious long enough that most people who show up for scout rolls are rolling for alts. If it's such a big deal to exclude people from the roll, how about we petition the GMs to change the scout quest to only one time per account? Or maybe only allow toons with more than four vowels but less than 7 vowels in their names have a chance? Or maybe break it down by class/race, so that only one combination per day be allowed to roll? Or, better yet, if the current agreement doesn't work in your favor, and you don't like the odds, just don't show up. And if you do show up, don't be a sore loser if you don't win the roll.

I have not done this quest on any of my characters. I would certainly like to have the quest reward on some of my toons, but not so much that I would deny anyone else of the opportunity to get it, regardless of their level.

Ok, if you'd like to bring a group of lvl46s to split and kill the Captain, I'll sit back and watch. :)

[enjchanter]

I will not agree to this until my paladin is 55






Which will be never

[Incubo]

This has come up countless times, no easy solution to fix this bottle neck. My main would like some bracers but I'm usually up against 30 of peoples' 4-5th alts. So best to stay away from this toxic camp.

[Ripqozko]

This gonna be a no from me dawg

[loramin]

While I wouldn't call it "easy", there's one simple way to solve this problem, and make the server more classic in the process.

Right now the core problem with Scout is a side effect of a solution to an even bigger previous problem: clickfests. Rolls are a (much better) solution than clickfests, but they give everyone an unclassic free raid force. This changes what should be a test of your ability to recruit friends (the way most elite gear works in EQ), into a loot lottery.

So how do we fix it? We still allow fair sharing of the NPC (ie. "rolls" over clickfests), but instead of enforcing it with a player agreement, we enforce with /list-like "automated GMing". Imagine this (or something like it):

You want to win Scout loot, so you and your group of friend shows up. You /list, and so do any other groups who show up. When Scout pops, the system randomly selects one full groups to "win" (if there are no full groups, it tries all groups of five, then four, and so on). That group can then do the turn-in.

That group then has X minutes (10? 15?) to kill a Kromzek Captain, and they have exclusive rights (no one else can damage him, or if anyone tries they get ported out of the zone Vox/Naggy-style, or something). If you brought even more friends, they can help with the other giants, but the captain is "owned" by the group that won. However, if for some reason they fail to kill him in that time, they lose their chance, and a new group gets a shot.

This would give all the benefits of not having a clickfest, but it would restore Scout to how it worked in classic: you have to bring friends to get the loot. And if Scout worked this way, with no "free raid force", I strongly suspect the amount of people doing this quest would decrease dramatically ... to the point where groups showing up at Scout might not even have to "roll" at all sometimes (again, the way it worked on Live).

[aaezil]

Renamed guild just wants welfare scout pixels and there is nothing you can do to deny those pixles

[Xulia]

You want to win Scout loot, so you and your group of friend shows up. You /list, and so do any other groups who show up. When Scout pops, the system randomly selects one full groups to "win" (if there are no full groups, it tries all groups of five, then four, and so on). That group can then do the turn-in.

That group then has X minutes (10? 15?) to kill a Kromzek Captain, and they have exclusive rights (no one else can damage him, or if anyone tries they get ported out of the zone Vox/Naggy-style, or something). If you brought even more friends, they can help with the other giants, but the captain is "owned" by the group that won. However, if for some reason they fail to kill him in that time, they lose their chance, and a new group gets a shot.

This would give all the benefits of not having a clickfest, but it would restore Scout to how it worked in classic: you have to bring friends to get the loot. And if Scout worked this way, with no "free raid force", I strongly suspect the amount of people doing this quest would decrease dramatically ... to the point where groups showing up at Scout might not even have to "roll" at all sometimes (again, the way it worked on Live).

This seems to encourage being able to 1 group the captain - I'm guessing this includes the kiter - so 5 man him? Seems like that would be a tall order unless you already had ToV gear. This would make the Scout Roll highly exploitable if you had a guild of people that could do that on their own...

[7thGate]

It should be feasible to one group the captain without anything too crazy, though you probably need a balanced group comp that contains a 60 tank with decent gear. You can do a tertiary kite to bring the captain to DN or just to stall until your kiter can zone and come back, so you do get all 6 people.

IIRC, ALS 8 manned him on a quake once without much difficulty, though I wasn't there so could be off on the details. I believe that did include a torp shaman, a cleric and a 60 warrior in Thurg gear, however.

With some shenanigans, I suspect I might be able to duo him, though it would be messy and failure prone.

[loramin]

This seems to encourage being able to 1 group the captain - I'm guessing this includes the kiter - so 5 man him? Seems like that would be a tall order unless you already had ToV gear.

If P99 had official raid forces I'd suggest rules based around those, but since it doesn't I suggested using groups. The idea is not that you should have to do Scout with one group, it's that you should have at least a group of people there indicating they are willing to help you, for you to have a shot. Some random person alone without a force shouldn't.

In other words, it's not "let's only let groups do it", it's "let's prioritize the people that bring raid forces, and since we can't measure those we'll measure the next closest thing (groups)."

This would make the Scout Roll highly exploitable if you had a guild of people that could do that on their own...

That's the idea! :) Scout was never meant to be a lottery ticket to awesome loot. Instead, it was was very much designed to be like the other epic Velious quests: Shawl, Dain Ring, Garzicor, etc. all assume/require you to have friends willing to help.

Saying it's an exploit to make you have to have a guild to do Scout is like saying it's an exploit that you need a full group to do Sebilis King. Because of implementation details it used to be possible for people to duo/trio King, but when the staff fixed it so you needed a group again that wasn't "introducing an exploit", it was "making the server classic again".

Making scout require a raid force would be the same thing. Clickfests were classic in that way, but terrible in every other way. Rolls are better than clickfests in every way ... except that they require everyone to help. Generation 3.0 ("automated GMing") could give everyone a fair chance (no clickfest) without giving everyone free loot.

[Xulia]

That's the idea! :) Scout was never meant to be a lottery ticket to awesome loot.

I'm sorry, Loramin - With all respect, I'm at a hard disagree here. As much as I don't like lvl 30-40 alts trying to roll for it, helping others with the scout fight is a unique event that brings a handful of people to work together towards a common goal. I'm not about denying pixels to someone that's put in the time of 55+ levels just because they didn't show up with a full group ready to go at 9:00 AM on a weekday.

I think the solution we have is the best - allow players to roll, respect the rolls, and vote with their feet if they want to help.

[elwing]

Scout is perfect as is

[loramin]

I'm sorry, Loramin - With all respect, I'm at a hard disagree here. As much as I don't like lvl 30-40 alts trying to roll for it, helping others with the scout fight is a unique event that brings a handful of people to work together towards a common goal. I'm not about denying pixels to someone that's put in the time of 55+ levels just because they didn't show up with a full group ready to go at 9:00 AM on a weekday.

I think the solution we have is the best - allow players to roll, respect the rolls, and vote with their feet if they want to help.

There's good, and there's classic. Is it good (or I'd go farther: awesome) that everyone works together and helps each other? Yes. Is it classic? No.

That's the story of this place. Is losing XP when you die painful? Yes. Would it be "good" if you didn't? Yes ... but it would have a side effect, of making the game overall less fun (see WoW).

Same deal here. I truly do like that everyone gets together and helps with roll fights, but it's 100% unclassic, and it's precisely the reason why we have giant lines with tons of people rolling ... when on live Scout was pretty much a "show up, bring your raid force, and do it" kind of a deal.

This place is meant to re-create the game from 1999-2001, worts and all. That game expected you to get a bunch of friends together to do the quest: the fact that you don't have to here means it's not the same game, and the devs are failing (in some very minor way) at their stated goal.

[Bbeta]

go back to click fest. never cheated. have average ping. won 4 click festing. since first roll. never been back to scout.

Those who compete are grossed out by /ran. Those who don't want to compete show up with everyone else who also doesn't want to compete. then complain that its not fair so many casuals show up for a free roll. Am i missing something? wouldn't click fest level its self out again?

[Atmas]

I haven't gone to a scout in a long long while, not really invested in this issue.

Just wanted to say though that someone might be trying to get something for their 2nd character that is maybe lower level. Is that less deserving than someones 6th 60?

[magnetaress]

I have no idea what the OP is even suggesting. I can't decipher it. Even been playing this game 50 years.

[LazyHydras]

There's good, and there's classic. Is it good (or I'd go farther: awesome) that everyone works together and helps each other? Yes. Is it classic? No.

That's the story of this place. Is losing XP when you die painful? Yes. Would it be "good" if you didn't? Yes ... but it would have a side effect, of making the game overall less fun (see WoW).

Same deal here. I truly do like that everyone gets together and helps with roll fights, but it's 100% unclassic, and it's precisely the reason why we have giant lines with tons of people rolling ... when on live Scout was pretty much a "show up, bring your raid force, and do it" kind of a deal.

This place is meant to re-create the game from 1999-2001, worts and all. That game expected you to get a bunch of friends together to do the quest: the fact that you don't have to here means it's not the same game, and the devs are failing (in some very minor way) at their stated goal.


I'm in agreement with Loramin here. And I haven't always agreed with him on everything. It may lock people out of getting Scout Roll if they can't muster a force at the exact time of Scout Roll, but, then again, there are a lot of scenarios (both here and in Classic) where players were shut out of gear opportunities due to logistical reasons. This was never designed to be free pixels, so I think that requiring your own group is a fair compromise. Playing solo and don't have access to a group? Look for a guild and become friendly with your guildmates; they will, in most cases, be glad to help you get that scout roll piece you've been yearning for.

[LazyHydras]

aaaaand another lvl50 druid wins scout roll again. Idk about you guys, but I'm straight up not going to help if another lvl50 wins.

[Fammaden]

The only reason I can see to have a level restriction is if you are too low to contribute to the fight. Given the number of people showing up 50+ seems appropriate enough.

That being said, scout roll is one of the few successful and long running cooperative agreements surrounding a high end goal that exists in this otherwise cutthroat community. Why fuck with a good thing and potentially make it worse.

Scout isn't perfect, but it seems to be a good candidate for "if it ain't broke don't fix it". And I'm sorry but a 53 alt winning a roll doesn't make it broken. That dude could be your buddy and or guild mate next week for all you know, let him have his moment. Plenty of 55+ players win it as well, more likely they are the majority of winners.

[Jimjam]

aaaaand another lvl50 druid wins scout roll again. Idk about you guys, but I'm straight up not going to help if another lvl50 wins.

Pft don’t help any of those priests or silkies. Tanks only!

[kaizersoze]

In b4 Ghxst comes in and clickfests it with their own force. Take the agreement as it is and try again later or get ready to clickfest.

[LazyHydras]

In b4 Ghxst comes in and clickfests it with their own force. Take the agreement as it is and try again later or get ready to clickfest.

What is it with people thinking that there's somehow only 2 options: an unchangeable agreement or clickfiesta?


It's a pretty defeatist attitude and leads to stuff like 10 seconds rolls at Angry Gobbo (or the infamous 5 second roll at Shady Gobbo). We are all adults here and should be able to add amendments. 50+ people logging in for every Scout Roll is just an absolute cluster at this point. Anyone can show up with a lvl50 toon unable to really contribute to the fight and win and then park another lvl50 toon and the cycle continues.

[Fammaden]

silkies

Ok, NOW we have a good issue. I get way more rustled by someone taking the robe than by a level 50 winning. At least the priests and melee winning at any level are using the quest for a badass item, not just throwing the spawn away.

[LazyHydras]

The only reason I can see to have a level restriction is if you are too low to contribute to the fight. Given the number of people showing up 50+ seems appropriate enough.

That being said, scout roll is one of the few successful and long running cooperative agreements surrounding a high end goal that exists in this otherwise cutthroat community. Why fuck with a good thing and potentially make it worse.

Scout isn't perfect, but it seems to be a good candidate for "if it ain't broke don't fix it". And I'm sorry but a 53 alt winning a roll doesn't make it broken. That dude could be your buddy and or guild mate next week for all you know, let him have his moment. Plenty of 55+ players win it as well, more likely they are the majority of winners.

I have nothing against the person behind the player. I'm just saying that they should be of level to materially contribute to the fight in order to roll. I would gladly welcome a lvl50 as my guildmate and even help them level up so they could be useful! But, yea. I would prefer scout roll be 55+

OR

Adopt Loramin's suggestion of Bring-Your-Own-Group and /list for each group.

[kaizersoze]

What is it with people thinking that there's somehow only 2 options: an unchangeable agreement or clickfiesta?


It's a pretty defeatist attitude and leads to stuff like 10 seconds rolls at Angry Gobbo (or the infamous 5 second roll at Shady Gobbo). We are all adults here and should be able to add amendments. 50+ people logging in for every Scout Roll is just an absolute cluster at this point. Anyone can show up with a lvl50 toon unable to really contribute to the fight and win and then park another lvl50 toon and the cycle continues.

I mean how are you going to enforce it though. All someone needs to do is /anonymous and you cant see their level. Do you just not help regardless because you cant see their level? If they should do anything to make scout "harder" for low levels to do, its add more barrier to the quest than just base faction of amiable because all you need for that is a few hours in kael. Im not fond of losing roll either, was fortunate enough to win 2 on my rogue within 3 days, but if someone's there and helping, they deserve just as much of a chance as you do.

[Fammaden]

We are all adults here

HILARIOUS. Really great stuff man, I enjoy comedy.

[kaizersoze]

You also cant be so blind as to see that if it did become a "bring your own force" type thing like say, ring war or any FTE target, why would there even be a roll anymore? It would straight up devolve into clickfest naturally because a few people wouldnt want to wait and because "muh competition." The people you're trying to reason with into not going to clickfest at that point are the same ones that sit in place or 15 hours to be the first to coth for statue / yelinak etc because rotations make you softer than charmin.

[loramin]

You also cant be so blind as to see that if it did become a "bring your own force" type thing like say, ring war or any FTE target, why would there even be a roll anymore? It would straight up devolve into clickfest naturally because a few people wouldnt want to wait and because "muh competition." The people you're trying to reason with into not going to clickfest at that point are the same ones that sit in place or 15 hours to be the first to coth for statue / yelinak etc because rotations make you softer than charmin.

You seem to be willfully ignoring the possibility ... in fact, the necessity, of automated GMing to even make that scenario happen.

Scout will not suddenly have everyone (who is used to their lottery ticket system) suddenly agree with perfect consensus to switch to a "bring your own force" model! Never in a million years. The only way that will ever happen is if the staff (with a desire to make this place more classic) decides to make it happen ... and if they do, it's incredibly unlikely that they'd go back to clickfests.

Instead, if it happens it will be because the staff decided to implement some form of automated GMing, and that inherently solves the "clickfest problem" (just as another form of automated GMing, /list, does).

[LazyHydras]

Well. I tried. People want their lvl50 alts to get free pixels, so. hey. I'm done.

[Smotr]

Ya, it'd be nice to get it on mains.

[bonesaw]

Well if people stop helping naked lvl 50 rangers with the kill after they win then things will change. If people only assist say 55+ fully geared toons then maybe people will be less apt to bring naked alts.

And if the naked lvl 50’s wanna cry and petition then let them, because then rolling goes against the spirit of the agreement

[LazyHydras]

Well if people stop helping naked lvl 50 rangers with the kill after they win then things will change. If people only assist say 55+ fully geared toons then maybe people will be less apt to bring naked alts.

And if the naked lvl 50’s wanna cry and petition then let them, because then rolling goes against the spirit of the agreement

I'll try again at the next few scout rolls, but the majority of those present are either apathetic about this issue, are the lvl50 alts in question, or turn around and threaten me to not help me if I win because I won't sit there and help 4th alt lvl50 druids and rangers.

So, we are stuck with this working, albeit imperfect, system for the time being.

[bonesaw]

Screw it, call people out. Say “just so we’re all clear if naked ass lvl 50 Soandso wins I’m not helping” and if you get petitioned then say that you didn’t agree to help. It’s not a player agreement if you don’t agree. If I’m there I’ll say “hell yeah, me neither” til people stop bringing shitty naked toons. Looking at you Howwe

[loramin]

At that point you're basically saying "I'm not going to play by the rules everyone else has agreed to" ... which seems unlikely to end well.

What I would recommend instead is trying to do a "poll" (of sorts) on the ground before the roll, and then talk to people who "vote" against you. Understand why they feel the way they do, and if your change is better then productively convince them of it.

It's not easy and it's not fun, but if you can get ten people to say "we want a change" one week, and twenty the next, eventually you can build up consensus for a change. And that's really the bar that the staff has set on implementing/changing these agreements: consensus (although they've never specified "well what if 25 people want X but 2 people don't: is that consensus?", so there's likely some wiggle room ... I suspect what they really want to see is the vast majority of players in unison).

[LazyHydras]

Useless, then. The vast majority of players want free pixels for their alts, so free pixels it is. "Democracy" wins again.

[Molitoth]

Once again, p99 is cool... but a lot of the people suck.

[bonesaw]

Then just shame them. On the forums, in OOC, to their guild leaders. Some of the toons that I’ve seen at scout (and winning) are absurd.

[Jimjam]

They literally wear their shame on their sleeve. What else can you do?

[kaizersoze]

Like I said, problem could be solved if you added another prerequisite beyond just amiable faction. Hell you can get a level like 5 max ally w a few statue / aow tags and get them thru to SG. A level requirement to zone into SG / level requirement to start the quest would fix both problems at the same time.

For now the system works and you just need to be lucky. I'd rather have it be this way than clickfest / bring your own force / /list'd. The nature of scout roll, regardless of level requirement per amended agreement or not, is welfare pixels. Cant look a gift horse in the mouth and all that.

[Hisamori]

I have been going to the rolls for about a month now and have made some observations. I was logging data because i wanted to quantify some of the anecdotes I was noticing but got lazy a few weeks in. So here I am, resurrecting this thread.

I think Loramin is right that a clickfest can be obnoxious but that the roll agreement creates a secondary problem: removing the already fairly trivial barrier to completing the quest that is organizing enough people to kill the captain. The result is an unclassic amount of people showing up to contest because the risk to reward for loot is not balanced, simply because of the artificial raid force. The idea of creating a /roll but the rollers would have to bring their own raid force seems to be one way to solve it.

I toyed with the idea in my head of amending the agreement proposing some sort of scout DKP system where you would have to attend so many scout rolls before you'd be eligible to roll as a way of balancing it out in favor of those who went to and helped with more scout rolls. The problem is this would always be subject to corruption by those maintaining it and thus, the potential to increase server drama rather than reduce it. It also would fall apart if no one chooses to administer it.

What I'm about to propose would require help from the devs, who I'm sure are already busy, but I see as a way of using existing game mechanics to require some sort of investment beyond just showing up and rolling. The goal is to reward attendance/persistence, which is a classic EQ paradigm. It also is strictly Unclassic, but as the devs have stated and shown, classic environment trumps classic mechanics and in this case, I believe the agreement may be a candidate for degrading said environment.

Firstly, to acquire the scout tools, require max ally faction with CoV. This is prerequisite is fairly simple to achieve due to the current environment on blue with faction pulls, frequent vindi, statue, and AoW pulls to WL ZL.

The second would be to make scout on her own faction which starts indifferent to everyone. The turn-in of tools to her would then require some level of faction with her beyond indifferent. She is only NPC on this faction, call it Scout Charisa faction. The way you raise this faction? By tagging the Kromzek Captain. This basically makes you attend a certain number of scout rolls before you can even do the quest and help others to get your own shot. The tricky part will be determining how many tags would be required. Say Max Ally w/ her is required to turn in the tools, then maybe it takes somewhere between 20 and 50 tags to get there (a little over a week, to over 3 weeks if you attend every single roll) or 'n' such tags. This is why I was logging data, to get an idea for both the average attendance for each roll and the average number of rolls people attended before winning. Winning roll doesn't have enough faction? No harm, she eats the tools and the next highest roller turns in. This is easy enough for the players to self-police. I haven't seen anyone ninja-looting or trying to train or otherwise disrupt the current agreement. A couple of accidental bad pulls is all, one of which I am personally responsible for and apologize.

But the problem with this is, no one would be able to turn the tools into her initially and thus would require some sort of way to seed this faction. There are a couple of ways around this. One would be to having a secondary way to grind and raise faction Scout Charisa, bad enough that going to the roll and helping kill captain would be the preferred way to raise faction. The other would be to implement these faction changes but then wait some number of scout spawns / time (maybe 2 or 3 x time minimum number of spawns for the first people to become ally) before changing her to check for faction for tool hand in.

Additionally, since melee often will want two bracers, and I doubt anyone is in favor of making them lore (punishing those who already grinded 2), maybe turning in the quest would drop your faction with her by n/4 or n/3 or so tags. Enough that you still have most of your initial attendance investment, but it will require some additional contribution to get this secondary bracer.

Just an idea, feel free to poke holes in it as I'm sure there are some logical faults that might make this not work or at least require refinement.

[Trexller]

keep it the way it is?

people are gonna get their pixels eventually, if they want them bad enough. look at the 100+ hour /list campers on green.

the only reason this thread exists is because grown men are mad that they lost a roll.

took me months to get a talisman of benevolence, I lost ALOT of rolls.

So the winner is a lower level than you? *tiny violin*

Login and roll until you win. I know thats tough due to modern tech making everything instant. But if you REALLY dont want to wait, crawl over to Daybreak and buy Kronos.

[Foxplay]

Id be ok with it being 60 only ;)

[Ripqozko]

pass, thanks

[White_knight]

I think 55-60 level range sounds fair.

Heck a level 50 would barely contribute to the fight unless it was maybe a cleric.

If I was spending my time tryin to get a bracer and some level 40 logged in (probably been boxed) just to /ran I'd be pretty pissed too.

Making it a 55-60 requirement puts a natural level barrier there.

P.s. I went to about 10 rolls on my Paladin before deciding grinding to 60 was better then parking him there just for a bracer chance

[kaizersoze]

keep it the way it is?

people are gonna get their pixels eventually, if they want them bad enough. look at the 100+ hour /list campers on green.

the only reason this thread exists is because grown men are mad that they lost a roll.

took me months to get a talisman of benevolence, I lost ALOT of rolls.

So the winner is a lower level than you? *tiny violin*

Login and roll until you win. I know thats tough due to modern tech making everything instant. But if you REALLY dont want to wait, crawl over to Daybreak and buy Kronos.

I'm not fond of "bring your own force." It just pushes it back further from winning roll etc and you're right fucking there. Just kill the damn thing, it'll take 30 seconds.

[Hisamori]

keep it the way it is?

people are gonna get their pixels eventually, if they want them bad enough. look at the 100+ hour /list campers on green.

the only reason this thread exists is because grown men are mad that they lost a roll.

took me months to get a talisman of benevolence, I lost ALOT of rolls.

So the winner is a lower level than you? *tiny violin*

Login and roll until you win. I know thats tough due to modern tech making everything instant. But if you REALLY dont want to wait, crawl over to Daybreak and buy Kronos.

The agreement exists for the same reason, though? Whatever method people want to use to determine loot/kill ownership exists to try to encourage "fairness", in whatever way suits the players or the GMs. Clickfest is no more unfair than a list or a roll. The idea was to create a weighted roll combining some aspects of list and roll.

In fact, list wouldn't even be a terrible idea for scout. Stormfeather worse and combines with another clickfest to produce an item. I imagine a list for scout might be 12 to 15 long given that Stormfeather is typically 4 to 8 or so.

I'm not fond of "bring your own force." It just pushes it back further from winning roll etc and you're right fucking there. Just kill the damn thing, it'll take 30 seconds.

I think the BYOR people were of the mind that your raid force must be present and ready to engage within a very short time (second), or effectively camping for the roll chance with you. This would drastically reduce the number of people even contesting. At least that's what I gather from reading the older posts of people who proposed this.

[REMEZ]

I hear you can just edit the wiki to enforce your own personal player agreement

[Jimjam]

Heck a level 50 would barely contribute to the fight unless it was maybe a cleric.

This isn’t really true at all. Firstly anyone can help with the train and tag. Secondly the captain is only level 58 and isn’t a particularly tough one. It is easily tanked by characters in their early 50s. I’ve done it myself.

Saying these characters barely contribute and don’t deserve loot is frankly ridiculous. You may as well say non of the level 60s deserve nToV or city leader gear as the 60s barely contribute (similar level difference and in fact even greater disparity of power).

The fact is a force of 50s in mediocre velious gear could absolutely kill captain, and really I feel they deserve it more than a bunch of bottom feeding 60s fighting a single blue mob at zoneline.

[kaizersoze]

This isn’t really true at all. Firstly anyone can help with the train and tag. Secondly the captain is only level 58 and isn’t a particularly tough one. It is easily tanked by characters in their early 50s. I’ve done it myself.

Saying these characters barely contribute and don’t deserve loot is frankly ridiculous. You may as well say non of the level 60s deserve nToV or city leader gear as the 60s barely contribute (similar level difference and in fact even greater disparity of power).

The fact is a force of 50s in mediocre velious gear could absolutely kill captain, and really I feel they deserve it more than a bunch of bottom feeding 60s fighting a single blue mob at zoneline.

they dont have their zoneline dragons anymore. This is all they have left.

[kaizersoze]

The agreement exists for the same reason, though? Whatever method people want to use to determine loot/kill ownership exists to try to encourage "fairness", in whatever way suits the players or the GMs. Clickfest is no more unfair than a list or a roll. The idea was to create a weighted roll combining some aspects of list and roll.

In fact, list wouldn't even be a terrible idea for scout. Stormfeather worse and combines with another clickfest to produce an item. I imagine a list for scout might be 12 to 15 long given that Stormfeather is typically 4 to 8 or so.



I think the BYOR people were of the mind that your raid force must be present and ready to engage within a very short time (second), or effectively camping for the roll chance with you. This would drastically reduce the number of people even contesting. At least that's what I gather from reading the older posts of people who proposed this.

why even bother rolling if we all have a force tho lol. Cliqfest

[Trexller]

The agreement exists for the same reason, though? Whatever method people want to use to determine loot/kill ownership exists to try to encourage "fairness", in whatever way suits the players or the GMs. Clickfest is no more unfair than a list or a roll. The idea was to create a weighted roll combining some aspects of list and roll.

What is more fair than a /random 1000 ?

a list system simply will never be implemented. the list system was a good idea on green, so logically it could work on blue. Rog-bog knew they were gonna use the /list system for green over a year ago. They had it worked out. They could implement it on blue anytime they wanted. They did not do so, because blue is "done".

So that leaves you with the existing system. Where fairness is determined by a roll.

Everyone that has won the roll has been thankful that a kill force was present.

When you win the roll you will be thankful that a kill force IS present.

[Hisamori]

why even bother rolling if we all have a force tho lol. Cliqfest

People do have a raid force, but not necessarily to contest the scout because they have to be present with raidforce at the time it spawns. This wasn't my suggestion so it's read on what others posted. If people have to mobilize a group, this reduces the number of people contesting it, perhaps even to where only a few or a single group(s) are there.

[Pootle]

Everyone that has won the roll has been thankful that a kill force was present.

When you win the roll you will be thankful that a kill force IS present.

Exactly this!

[LazyHydras]

What is more fair than a /random 1000 ?


All due respect to my former guild, this is the reason I left Dawn Believers. A /rand 1000 is not "fair" because you can be there for your 200th roll, be the only person that trains the giants to DN or the only person that rips the Captain off the train, and not get it, but someone shows up w/ their lvl50 alt for the first time and does a /rand 1000 and gets their item and dips.

Is that fair? No. Is it still fairer than Clickfest where certain individuals will always get it first because of either low ping or automation? Sadly, yes.

[Trexller]

All due respect to my former guild, this is the reason I left Dawn Believers. A /rand 1000 is not "fair" because you can be there for your 200th roll, be the only person that trains the giants to DN or the only person that rips the Captain off the train, and not get it, but someone shows up w/ their lvl50 alt for the first time and does a /rand 1000 and gets their item and dips.

Is that fair? No. Is it still fairer than Clickfest where certain individuals will always get it first because of either low ping or automation? Sadly, yes.

"Fair" means that no other player has an advantage to win over another player.

/random is an equal chance to win for any player who rolls

Your bad luck does not mean unfair. It means the dice hate you.

https://i.imgur.com/Ns9i1BW.jpg

[Daldolma]

Scout roll is literally the worst thing about p99, I support any and all amendments to this abomination

Force people to play the game for loot

[Jimjam]

Force people to play the game for loot

I’m confused. Are you complaining that scout roll forces people to play the game, or do you feel arranging a low level raid mob fight with other players on the server to complete a quest isn’t playing the game?

[Daldolma]

I’m confused. Are you complaining that scout roll forces people to play the game, or do you feel arranging a low level raid mob fight with other players on the server to complete a quest isn’t playing the game?

Logging a toon in for 8 minutes every 10 hours to type /ran 1000 then rinse and repeat until you get free loot is not playing the game. It's a loot conveyor belt.

[Jimjam]

Oh you seem to have misunderstood, you don’t just get ‘free loot’ for winning a random. You still have to do the faction work, leg work for the quest as well as helping out on all the fights you /random for.

[LazyHydras]

"Fair" means that no other player has an advantage to win over another player.


The roll is "fair," by that definition, yes. But the system itself is not "fair" with regard to what you get out of what you give. It's not rewarding effort and time spent doing it.

[Foxplay]

The agreement is a solution to a bottleneck that many many players WILL and can easily reach.

Amendments about level cap would only serve to further limit when players can start that bottleneck. Personally I would vote for 60 only :p but I think 55+ is completely fair

This is not to say that those under level 55 do not help. They certainly can, especially melee dps and clerics but minimums are set out of civility for other people. Taking the time to get a character to 55 before rolling on scout is imho respectful towards the others rolling. Personally I have only ever rolled on scout on 60s but then again all my characters are 60 :p and I don't really do anything on my characters UNTIL they are 60

[Fammaden]

Every time you've tried floating the idea in /ooc at populated rolls, its met with nearly complete indifferent silence. As Loramin's explained repeatedly about player agreements, you have to win the people "on the ground", not succeed in a theoretical discussion on the boards.

Not an attack here, just the way it is. I think more people want it to stay the same for various reasons than want to risk changing it. And the risk of it devolving into a toxic clickfest is probably as much of a reason or more for many of them than just that they are rolling on alts.

We know that the additional restriction would be nearly unenforceable and we can't expect GM's to police it. So one pissed off shitlord's 50 monk burning a spawn turn in would be enough to start a chain reaction that ruins the whole thing for all of us.

I said a while back that I felt like it is already won by 55+'s the majority of the time and the lowbie winners were more the exception. Maybe if someone was running stats on it to show me that wasn't true I'd be inclined to change my mind.

[Daldolma]

Oh you seem to have misunderstood, you don’t just get ‘free loot’ for winning a random. You still have to do the faction work, leg work for the quest as well as helping out on all the fights you /random for.

Like I said, it’s free conveyor belt loot for not playing the game.

GMs plz save neckbeard play nicers from themselves

[Trexller]

The roll is "fair," by that definition, yes. But the system itself is not "fair" with regard to what you get out of what you give. It's not rewarding effort and time spent doing it.

So... when you win the roll, everyone else is gonna lose and they will help you kill the mob. That's the return on your investment of all those other captain kills.

The agreement should change because you think you are over-investing on the quest?

Your time and effort are worth more than the other players who logged in to roll? Im sure thats not what you meant, its what it sounds like though

If the effort is not rewarding enough for the time spent... why are you even trying? Everyone else logs in to roll, very few of them complain.

Play some other games! I'm very big into RS6: Siege. If people do shit you dont like you can vote kick or just shoot them in the head!

[Jimjam]

Like I said, it’s free conveyor belt loot for not playing the game.

GMs plz save neckbeard play nicers from themselves

If a scheduled open server raid isn’t playing the game then I don’t know what is.

[LazyHydras]

So... when you win the roll, everyone else is gonna lose and they will help you kill the mob. That's the return on your investment of all those other captain kills.

The agreement should change because you think you are over-investing on the quest?

Your time and effort are worth more than the other players who logged in to roll? Im sure thats not what you meant, its what it sounds like though

If the effort is not rewarding enough for the time spent... why are you even trying? Everyone else logs in to roll, very few of them complain.

Play some other games! I'm very big into RS6: Siege. If people do shit you dont like you can vote kick or just shoot them in the head!

I think you are purposely misunderstanding what I am saying. I'm not talking about the agreement being the best thing we have available to us. Because, sadly, it is. But it isn't "Fair" with regard to you "Eventually" getting the item from the roll, because there is no guarantee. You can be there literally forever and not be guaranteed to get the item, whereas someone can get 2 bracers for each of their alts in succession. Is that "fair"? Not really, no.

[Fammaden]

I'm going to start recording the levels of the people who win, will report back with all my numbers from July. I won't be at ALL of them by any means but I tend to at least average one roll a day over a month probably.

[7thGate]

I think you are purposely misunderstanding what I am saying. I'm not talking about the agreement being the best thing we have available to us. Because, sadly, it is. But it isn't "Fair" with regard to you "Eventually" getting the item from the roll, because there is no guarantee. You can be there literally forever and not be guaranteed to get the item, whereas someone can get 2 bracers for each of their alts in succession. Is that "fair"? Not really, no.

That's kind of how Everquest works though.

There's a whole bunch of stuff with small drop % rates, and you're not guaranteed to ever get any of it. The longer you camp something, the more your odds converge toward 100%, but you don't ever guarantee you get what you're after.

There is nothing more quintissentially everquest than performing a rote action once every specified period of time for a 2% chance of getting the loot you want to drop.

EDIT: FWIW, you have a better chance of winning the powerbowl than NOT getting a scout roll if you attend all of them for a year, assuming 50 people show up to each one. You could always lose the reverse lottery on that, but really, its pretty close to guaranteed if you're dedicated for a long enough period of time, just like every other camp in the game.

[Hisamori]

What is more fair than a /random 1000 ?

a list system simply will never be implemented. the list system was a good idea on green, so logically it could work on blue. Rog-bog knew they were gonna use the /list system for green over a year ago. They had it worked out. They could implement it on blue anytime they wanted. They did not do so, because blue is "done".

So that leaves you with the existing system. Where fairness is determined by a roll.

Everyone that has won the roll has been thankful that a kill force was present.

When you win the roll you will be thankful that a kill force IS present.

I don't have an issue with /roll or a player maintained list (not /list) or clickfest. My point was modifying an agreement is no different than have an agreement to begin with. Both are valid ways to try structure loot distribution. Saying one is because someone/people are upset about the way access to loot is structured but not the other is disingenuous.

I don't have a particular need/want for the roll to change, I was only laboring under the assumption that a different system was needed because that was the premise of OP's post.

Making it lvl 60 only is fine. I see that as fair. The quest designer clearly screwed up itemizing the rewards for this back in 1999 as the bracer and talisman are far too good for the simplicity/ease of the quest. So adding other artificial constrains into the agreement is one way to make the limited availability of loot satisfy the players actually able to complete the quest.

Another would be to have a minimum roll to win. This would be harder to keep track of than regular roll but would ensure less RNG unfairness. As it is, sometimes a 992 can lose (have seen it) or an 868 can win (I won with this not long ago, actually). Rolling against a static number vs. rolling against what others happen to roll is statistically a different picture.

Again, these are just suggestions based on OP's premise. This conversation is a thought exercise more than it is a dire need to change the current agreement as I see it.

[Trexller]

I'm going to start recording the levels of the people who win, will report back with all my numbers from July. I won't be at ALL of them by any means but I tend to at least average one roll a day over a month probably.

What if you win tomorrow? are you still gonna log in to record the levels of winners?

[QUOTE someone else

Statistically yes, yes it is fair. Rolls are statistically fair. When you look at all the things we roll for in game, everyone has equally bad luck.

a trend has become prolific in 2020:

Something does not favor me exclusively, so everyone and the whole world must change!

[Fammaden]

What if you win tomorrow? are you still gonna log in to record the levels of winners?

Yeah I'll start doing it on another toon. If I win on that one too before the end of the month then I'm done with scout probably forever and I'll just post whatever I'd gotten. It wont be at all surprising if I'm still rolling at the end of the month.

[Jimjam]

Yeah I'll start doing it on another toon. If I win on that one too before the end of the month then I'm done with scout probably forever and I'll just post whatever I'd gotten. It wont be at all surprising if I'm still rolling at the end of the month.

This is the beauty of scout roll. It is an infinite conveyor belt of characters that guarantees there is always a friendly, welcoming raid force to play with. You just get to play the game with other players as intended without anyone gatekeeping, monopolising, creating artificial scarcity or pay walls.

Play, have fun, make friends and if lucky eventually get an item or two.

[kaizersoze]

i should start rolling for more BoBs on my rogue even though he has 2. Theyre not lore, so I should fill my bag and bank slots with bracers of benevolence.

[Trexller]

i should start rolling for more BoBs on my rogue even though he has 2. Theyre not lore, so I should fill my bag and bank slots with bracers of benevolence.

Agreed. My level 50 monk needs 2 bracers and 2 more for CR gear and a talisman (to admire in the bank) Then I need a robe, for, reasons...

My 45 druid needs a talisman too. Druid also needs 2 bracers. my druid face tanks like a pro.

My 42 ranger needs 2 bracers and another 2 of them for CR gear.

My 15 necro totally gettin a robe.

After that ill have to roll new toons to get scout loots in the 10s to 40s... maybe even level 1

100 Billion Scout Loots!

https://i.imgur.com/JPWqfYt.gif

[Jimjam]

Honestly the ranger needs multiple sets of CR gear. Two pairs won’t be enough.

[Hisamori]

Iksar should be able to wear a third bracer on their tail. Maybe a boot, too.

[Trexller]

No... Several of us should just roll lvl 1 toons and flash mob the scout people at roll time

30 level 1s, logging on in the same second. Gonna need to choreograph it well.

Hours and days of practice should get it right.

[Fammaden]

If anyone knows the levels of winners for yesterday or the past few rolls let me know and I'll add to my stats for July.

[Teddie1056]

Anyone who wants a clickfest is a chode. And it is monumentally unfair to anyone who doesn't live near the server.

[kjs86z]

Anyone who wants a clickfest is a chode.

[Jimjam]

If anyone knows the levels of winners for yesterday or the past few rolls let me know and I'll add to my stats for July.

The fact no under levelled winners have been reported since this post was made suggests a mix of 1) it rarely happens and 2) no one cares.

The suggestion to throw out the baby with the bath water due to this white elephant is just a bad faith argument by people frustrated of ‘waiting their turn’ or wanting to set up a bottle neck to extort a paywall for loot rights. Perish the thought of people playing this game together and improve their characters’ equipment ‘for free’!

[darkreap]

What time is the roll?

[kaizersoze]

Anyone who wants a clickfest is a chode. And it is monumentally unfair to anyone who doesn't live near the server.

All your ring wars, Statues, KTs, Lodis, scouts and goblins belong to Furoar, the man who lives on the server itself. Everyone must exodus to freedom in order to get any of that loot!

[Fammaden]

The fact no under levelled winners have been reported since this post was made suggests a mix of 1) it rarely happens and 2) no one cares.

The suggestion to throw out the baby with the bath water due to this white elephant is just a bad faith argument by people frustrated of ‘waiting their turn’ or wanting to set up a bottle neck to extort a paywall for loot rights. Perish the thought of people playing this game together and improve their characters’ equipment ‘for free’!

I'm saving up my numbers until I have a full month of July. I was just asking for a couple of days filled in while I was offline for the US holiday weekend. Will update thread after July, although I'm inclined to agree with what you've said I just wanted to get some amount of data on the matter.

[Ennewi]

https://en.m.wiktionary.org/wiki/benevolence (https://en.m.wiktionary.org/wiki/benevolence#:~:text=Circa%201400%2C%20original%20s ense%20%E2%80%9Cgood,voluntary%2C%20more%20distant ly%20will%20(via)

[gkmarino]

https://en.m.wiktionary.org/wiki/benevolence (https://en.m.wiktionary.org/wiki/benevolence#:~:text=Circa%201400%2C%20original%20s ense%20%E2%80%9Cgood,voluntary%2C%20more%20distant ly%20will%20(via)

[roks1]

le magic fix

~~le program ze quest npc to give only to level 55+ (60) and claim to have found 'notes in the classic database' indicating npc quest was level restricted~~

or make it a "bug" that never gets fixed like out of era npc caster AI and feign ignorance and watch the mayhem!

[Dogma]

Make Siren's Grotto require lvl 46+ to zone in and remove bind affinity permissions from Western Wastes.