Evidence merchants should be immune to charm

[Jimjam]

I've seen a few complaints about players charming merchants, and a few responses to those complaints that nobody remembers merchants being charmed back in the day.

I have found a couple of pieces of evidence that support the argument that merchants should not be able to be charmed, certainly by Velious at the very least.

The first piece of evidence I found was in the official patch notes:





August 15, 2001 3:00 am
------------------------------

** Spell Changes **

- Restored "charmability" of most NPCs (merchants will remain
uncharmable) in Kael due to fix of combat AI bug listed bellow under
Miscellaneous Changes.


The above describes a bug that made all of Kael's NPCs uncharmable, it is noted merchants remain uncharmable after the fix. To me this implies merchants were not able to be charmed before this bug took place, and also generally across all of Norrath.

I have found collaborating evidence which suggest it is not exclusively the Kael merchants which are uncharmable, indeed it is a broader restriction:

I know as an enchanter you can't charm vendor NPC or other npcs pets I do not dare to try other NPC as I like factions, on a PVP sever all factions help.

https://everquest.allakhazam.com/db/item.html?item=3656#m105886580282145

Individually these comments might be too circumstantial ("perhaps it was only Kael merchants that could not be charmed" and "the post is a year or so outside our timeframe"), but put together these quotes strongly suggest merchants should not be charmable at some point in our timeline, if not throughout.

[Dolalin]

Good one. Didn't know they could charm merchants on P99.

Some more evidence from the newsgroups:


8/24/01

Chanters can charm anything except merchants and certain very high event
NPCs like dragons etc.

https://groups.google.com/d/msg/alt.games.everquest/2iA3VRkjzZs/6hiEAO6Oz68J



3/14/00

>
> Besides there reaches a point where you may as well have a pet
> because theres nothing you can charm anyway.

Haven't fought anything I cant charm so far (level 35). That I tried anyway
;-)

Well except once when I accidently cast charm on the dark elf merchant in
sro instead of benevolence ;-)

https://groups.google.com/d/msg/alt.games.everquest/kEgQe6A_Oec/IjGNoVz1HMUJ

[BurtMacklinFBI]

Thank god someone finally dug this up. Good work. OOT LEVELERS REJOICE.

[Sunderfury]

Thank god someone finally dug this up. Good work. OOT LEVELERS REJOICE.

The rejoicing would be drowned out by the Enchanter tears over Verina Tomb camp.

[Noren]

You posted something like that in 2017 already :
https://www.project1999.com/forums/showthread.php?p=2555344

[DMN]

Good one. Didn't know they could charm merchants on P99.

Some more evidence from the newsgroups:

I suspect this issue was zone specific, and not something that generally applied to vendors, just like corpse dragging giving aggro. Though it's possible they broadened the scope of this immunity, it would be hard to say if that happened in "our" classic timeline without good evidence.

I wouldn't pay much attention to the comment about Sro merchant either. At 35 his highest charm(beguile) can only charm up to level 37 mobs, so he's technically right it would be impossible for him to charm the level 40 dark elf merchants.

[nilbog]

Can anyone find in-era (<2002) evidence of a merchant being charmed?

[Jimjam]

You posted something like that in 2017 already :
https://www.project1999.com/forums/showthread.php?p=2555344
Thanks for the link. I remember posting a thread before, but I wasn't able to dig it up to deposit extra evidence. You're obviously a proficient researcher, perhaps you can help find proof either way that merchants were charmable or not?

You'd think there would be at least one reported incident of an enchanter having charmed a merchant somewhere if it were indeed classic.

Can anyone find in-era (<2002) evidence of a merchant being charmed?

If a p1999 enchanter could offer a list of popular merchants for charm I’ll try sift through the oldweb for classic comments suggesting to charm any merchants. I haven’t found any merchant’s pages on zam suggesting to attempt charm but I will continue attempting to find something conclusive one way or the other.

[Jimjam]

I have checked Gadalion, Isslana, Cazel (thought someone might comment to charm a merch here - nope... though I did find a comment or two echoing something I believed in classic - disease dots should block mob regen https://everquest.allakhazam.com/db/npc.html?id=5170&p=5#m9820935161310, https://everquest.allakhazam.com/db/npc.html?id=5170&p=4#m100100892751713, https://everquest.allakhazam.com/db/npc.html?id=5170&p=4#m999815671652 and https://everquest.allakhazam.com/db/npc.html?id=5170&p=5#m99253902825801 for future reference), Synthan, Elesseryl Terussar, Doran Vargnus, Tisiana … None of them had an mention of merchant charming as a strategy. You'd think someone would have mentioned a merchant being a decent charm pet somewhere.

Like I said, if anyone can give a list of merchants that are obvious charm pets I'll sift through comments trying to find definitive evidence that merchants either could or could not be charmed.

[Noren]

I found the tag "Allowed Targets: All" on Allakhazam's wayback machine :
For Allure (https://web.archive.org/web/20020331015634/https://everquest.allakhazam.com/db/spell.html?spell=183)
And Cajoling Whispers (https://web.archive.org/web/20020307054947/https://everquest.allakhazam.com/db/spell.html?spell=182)

These datas extracted with EQCaster, which are "decyphered directly from the EverQuest directory itself" :
EQ Caster Faq (https://web.archive.org/web/20001015202345/http://www.eqcaster.com/faq.htm)

Does that mean you can charm merchants, idk, it just say "all".

[DMN]

https://groups.google.com/forum/#!searchin/alt.games.everquest/charm$20merchant%7Csort:date/alt.games.everquest/EMsq68aYKrU/QASJQO-76TIJ

There are numerous interesting posts in this thread regarding it.

All in all it seems to suggest some specific NPC merchants were flagged as uncharmable, but these were exceptions. These are also from early 2001, so no 100% ideal time frame.


"The TBoots merchant can't be charmed. Not even Dictate (level 60 enchanter
charm) works on that vendor.

Since SKs don't get sneak (they get hide, not sneak), the only way Fomar is
going to get TBoots is to do it the hard way and build faction."


This guy seems to know what he is talking about, appearing to even have first hand knowledge of dictate usage. and the way it is written suggests that it's not the usual case merchants are uncharmable.


Other posts in that thread seems to convey that merchants were thought generally charmable and some are even incredulous this sol a one seems to not be. one appearing to be a high level enchanter himself saying he is going to test it himself with dictate:

[DMN]

Also as an sidenote, but an important one, I'm not sure what can be drawn from the information regarding the uncharmable vendors in Kael. In P99's timeline it never would have been possible to charm the kael vendors anyway, since they are level 60 or higher.

[Castle2.0]

/thread

[Jimjam]

Also as an sidenote, but an important one, I'm not sure what can be drawn from the information regarding the uncharmable vendors in Kael. In P99's timeline it never would have been possible to charm the kael vendors anyway, since they are level 60 or higher.

It could have been a forward compatibility thing in anticipation of future spells, or it could have been they remained uncharmable because all other merchants were.

There are definitely many potential explanations. Anyone found in era evidence of even a single merchant being charm-able yet?

[DMN]

It could have been a forward compatibility thing in anticipation of future spells, or it could have been they remained uncharmable because all other merchants were.

There are definitely many potential explanations. Anyone found in era evidence of even a single merchant being charm-able yet?

The wording would be quite bizarre if the previous situation was that they were usually uncharmable. They would have no need to even mention that in the patch notes as it would be obvious to anyone. They also tended to write far too little in their patch notes regarding actual changes, making it even stranger to write an entire sentence for something that theoretically would have been always the case.

If we take those patch notes as literally as they would in, say, a court room. It would be shown that the vendors being made uncharmable was itself part of the original AI bug -- hence, that they previously WERE charmable.

[Jimjam]

You're right, they were bad at writing patch messages. After all, their words that 'most' npcs were restored charmable leaves enough wriggle room to not need to mention that the vendors remained uncharmable (and I disagree with your last sentence that the phrase is as conclusive as you believe - remain here could mean 'as they always were').

There is a lot of evidence that corroborates to create the impression that merchants were generally uncharmable, which makes me think it is not a coincidence that there is a complete absence of evidence that any merchant ever got successfully charmed - despite us having evidence in these threads that people did attempt it (unsuccessfully, of course).

I continue to search with hope for evidence of even one mob that got charmed in classic era, just to put the issue to bed. Do are knowledgeable about enchanters, do you have suggestions for mobs I could look up? It would be great to find a classic zam comment that says something along the lines of 'I charm this merchant to make great xp!'

[Telin]

Chanters can charm anything except merchants and certain very high event
NPCs like dragons etc. Hill Giants make good pets. I hink you are mixing it
up with HG's not being able to be mezzed which is the same for all Giants
class other than those in Burning Woods

https://groups.google.com/d/msg/alt.games.everquest/2iA3VRkjzZs/6hiEAO6Oz68J

[DMN]

https://groups.google.com/d/msg/alt.games.everquest/2iA3VRkjzZs/6hiEAO6Oz68J

Let me know when enchanters will be charming pets, charming magic immune mobs, and especially charming level 58+ mobs!

[cd288]

I agree with DMN. If anything all we have real evidence of is that in August 2001 merchants were apparently uncharmable. Doesn’t seem like there’s direct enough evidence in the timeline any earlier than that.

[Pringles]

Based on some of this stuff it seems like NPC with quests had these restrictions, probably due to VI not wanting people to cheese them.

[Dolalin]

Finding it tough to locate in-era mentions of this. What I have found:

1) By 2003, merchants I think were unequivocably uncharmable:


Stuff of level to DC is rarely marked uncharmable. It's either old world stuff when charming wasn't an issue or else specifically placed there to be DC'd. The exception to this tends to be merchants...can't charm them period;)

http://web.archive.org/web/20040113143514/forums.crgaming.com/eqbb/viewtopic.php?p=835502&amp


2) This thread from April 2002 isn't too far out of era, and it's pretty explicit (also it seems maybe Iksar NPCs were immune to charm, is that true on P99?):


Difficult to do solo:

1. Vessel: Iksar are immune charm.
2. Tangrin: He stuns and nothing that is charmable comes close to his level
3. Hate: Revenants, you need a FD puller to break the revs that actually drop anything
4. Verina Tomb: I believe others have posted that the guards are not charmable and merchants are not so there is not much left.
5. Cazel: Merchants are not charmable and this guy has an insane regen. Fully loaded with Necro and Shaman dots his hp do not drop.
6. Tangrin: Iksar are not charmable and the guards are the only thing in the zone that might be able to stand up to his punishment.
7. Shissar: You have to pull the Shissar out of the temple occupied by a bunch of HTing mobs. A Dire Charmed pet would die quickly followed a bunch of Amy Knights descending upon you

Hmm ... looking back it all seems pretty negative

So, you can pretty much solo the parts that are soloable by everyone

If you do manage to solo one of the above, let us know ... that would be quite interesting!

Regards,

--------------------

Master Zanithar TideBreaker
Phantasmist
Cazic Thule

http://web.archive.org/web/20020429050310/forums.castersrealm.com/cgi-bin/eq/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=17&t=000790


However as DMN says maybe this was a late-era change, such as around the time of the Kael patch message.

[Dolalin]

Here's a frustratingly unclear one, though it's in era and I think on the balance of probabilities it means she wasn't charmable, but I guess that's open to interpretation:


Sep 06 2000 at 7:43 AM
Adaster

Ok chanters help me out here. I have a Wood Elf Druid. I have two of the runes and the mask for the Incandesent Mask Quest. I need the third rune which you buy off the Gypsy Merchant in Qeynos. I am KOS in Qeynos. I have tried having a high level chanter charm her. Didn't work. I have tried hiding, didnt work. I have tried invis, didn't work. Anyone have a clue on how I can complete this quest. Thanks in advance.

Adaster

https://everquest.allakhazam.com/db/classes.html?class=13&mid=96824422811610

[loramin]

also it seems maybe Iksar NPCs were immune to charm, is that true on P99?

In context I take "Iksar are not charmable and the guards are the only thing in the zone that might be able to stand up to his punishment" more as "Iksar guards in Field of Bone (ie. the only ones you could charm to fight Tangrin (http://wiki.project1999.com/The%20Tangrin)) are not charmable".

I think he's saying "I can't charm the newbie guards to fight this mob nearby", but I'd take it as a comment on the uncharmability of those newbie guards (because all newbie guards get extra protections).

[DMN]

https://forums.daybreakgames.com/eq/index.php?threads/game-update-notes-august-21-2019.259201/

Almost 2020 and they are still adding NPCs to the uncharmable list.

"- Made 1,052 NPCs immune to charm. These are rare NPCs and those with very long respawn times."

[cd288]

Finding it tough to locate in-era mentions of this. What I have found:

1) By 2003, merchants I think were unequivocably uncharmable:



2) This thread from April 2002 isn't too far out of era, and it's pretty explicit (also it seems maybe Iksar NPCs were immune to charm, is that true on P99?):



However as DMN says maybe this was a late-era change, such as around the time of the Kael patch message.

Seems like the April 2002 stuff is more about NPCs specific to those zones not NPCs as a whole throughout the game

[nilbog]

Pending update,


Merchant class npcs can no longer be charmed. If evidence is found that certain merchants should be charmable, this change can be reverted for those cases.

[Tunabros]

The rejoicing would be drowned out by the Enchanter tears over Verina Tomb camp.

lol

[Dolalin]

Totally off topic but did anyone else notice there's an old school Netflix banner ad on top of this page? :D

LET'S RENT DVDS

https://web.archive.org/web/20020429050310/forums.castersrealm.com/cgi-bin/eq/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=17&t=000790

[axisofebola]

Somewhat related but are guild trainers supposed to be uncharmable too? i notice they all seem immune. I remember that they used to be legit targets particularly on the race war zek servers.

[Bristlebaner]

Good work team.

[Baugi]

Good work team.

[Demonstorm]

Seriously stop trying to nerf shit 10 years later. The server isn't already classic so why continue this witch hunt.

[Demonstorm]

I've seen a few complaints about players charming merchants, and a few responses to those complaints that nobody remembers merchants being charmed back in the day.

I have found a couple of pieces of evidence that support the argument that merchants should not be able to be charmed, certainly by Velious at the very least.

The first piece of evidence I found was in the official patch notes:





The above describes a bug that made all of Kael's NPCs uncharmable, it is noted merchants remain uncharmable after the fix. To me this implies merchants were not able to be charmed before this bug took place, and also generally across all of Norrath.

I have found collaborating evidence which suggest it is not exclusively the Kael merchants which are uncharmable, indeed it is a broader restriction:



https://everquest.allakhazam.com/db/item.html?item=3656#m105886580282145

Individually these comments might be too circumstantial ("perhaps it was only Kael merchants that could not be charmed" and "the post is a year or so outside our timeframe"), but put together these quotes strongly suggest merchants should not be charmable at some point in our timeline, if not throughout.

Who is complaining? no one is complaining, you site evidence but have none yourself. Stop making things a problem when there isn't any. No one cares if a merchant is charmed for one kill.

[Demonstorm]

You obviously dont understand what charm means.. anything over level 53 can't be charmed with a long duration charm spell. So stop screwing with the server.