Min/Max

[Larken]

Hi.

I was thinking of starting an Ogre Shaman, Ogre, mainly because of frontal stun immunity.

I'm wondering what should I plonk my stats into as min/max, BIS geared.
I'm thinking WIS and STA will both easily be maxxed, so perhaps dex/agi to put points into?

[Videri]

Perhaps Sta (maybe Wis) so you can start focusing on HP gear that much more. Assuming you really do max out your wisdom, direct HP gear is better than Sta gear.

[Ostepop]

Make a magelo with all your BiS gear and see what stats you're missing?

[Larken]

ok thanks for the suggestions. I didn't know you could use Magelo even.

[Ostepop]

https://wiki.project1999.com/Magelo_Blue

[Baler]

Troll is the min/max race for shaman.
25 Wisdom / 5 Stamina

But if you decide to go ogre,.
25 Wisdom / 5 Agility

Gear wise...
Leveling - Wisdom
Fresh 60 - Wisdom
Torpor 60 - Health/Stamina > wisdom

Health = Mana = Health
For torpor 60 shm, at which point Race matters much less. I've seen barbarian shaman do better than all the other races. It's play style and skill at that point.

[Larken]

Troll is the min/max race for shaman.
25 Wisdom / 5 Stamina

But if you decide to go ogre,.
25 Wisdom / 5 Agility

Gear wise...
Leveling - Wisdom
Fresh 60 - Wisdom
Torpor 60 - Health/Stamina > wisdom

Health = Mana = Health
For torpor 60 shm, at which point Race matters much less. I've seen barbarian shaman do better than all the other races. It's play style and skill at that point.

Thanks,

So then, at 60 Torpor Shaman as you say Health/Stamina > Wis, wouldn't it then be best to put all points into STA then?

[jolanar]

This is a topic still widely debated 20 years later. At the end of the day you can't go wrong with either ogre or troll.

If you do go ogre, the main thing is put 5 points into agi. Personally I would go wisdom with the rest because Ogres already have a ton of stamina and can also buff that stat themselves.

[magnetaress]

Don't min/max it is a red flag n the elf hotties won't be interested in you.

[Baler]

Thanks,

So then, at 60 Torpor Shaman as you say Health/Stamina > Wis, wouldn't it then be best to put all points into STA then?

No because Wis is the lowest starting stat for those two races.

[sacman08]

Min/max is an unattainable illusion of how people on this forum think EQ should play. Create whatever character you want.

[reznor_]

play style and skill

All the gear in the game can't make you a winner, just look at 90% of all clerics.

I just play what I like looking at the most, which is DE of course.

On green, the buddy I duo with plays an ogre shaman and he sure does love it. If you're on blue, think about the bear illusion and what you want to look like, if that matters.

[BlackBellamy]

troll shaman 25 sta 5 wis

ogre shaman 23 sta 5 agi 2 wis

honestly you can throw those wisdom points into str

edit:

i played cleric druid and shaman

for the druid and shaman, your mana pool is not important

you're not going to die because you run out of mana and you're not going to wipe your group because you can't cast one more low-level heal

you're going to die because you run out of hp with a mana bar 30% full, and you'll wipe your group because you're dead and could have been rooting all the adds with all that mana you still had

[Baler]

Focus of Spirit cost 500 mana per cast (minus a tiny bit if you specialize Alteration)

You'll want those starting points in wisdom. Then you can focus more into sta/hp gear.

[Vexenu]

Focus of Spirit cost 500 mana per cast (minus a tiny bit if you specialize Alteration)

You'll want those starting points in wisdom. Then you can focus more into sta/hp gear.

It boggles my mind that people don't understand this.

Let's say you pump 6 starting points into STA instead of WIS because you think, "I can just wear a +6 WIS ring and have the same amount of mana, plus more HP from the extra Stamina."

Sure. You'll end up with like 18 extra HP at level 60. Meanwhile, I'll be wearing my Djarn's ring that gives me +80 HP.

It's about trade offs and opportunity cost. You ALWAYS come out ahead pumping your primary stat at creation, because then you have more flexibility to wear very nice pieces of gear that DON'T have your primary stat (mostly HP and resist gear, few of which pieces also have great primary stats until deep into Velious).

People thinking they are somehow figuring out a new primary stat meta this deep into the game are deluding themselves. It's a primary stat for a reason. Stop overthinking it and shooting yourself in the foot in the process.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

I have a level 60 torpor raid geared ogre Shaman.

Go Ogre. 8 standing hp regen at 60 doesnt help that much. That is why you rarely see 60 Shamans rocking fungi tunics. When you regen 300hp/tick from torpor, an extra 8 isn't make or break. What is make or break is getting torpor interrupted too many times. I am not saying extra regen isn't nice. I still use Fungi staff for WW dragons. It definitely helps on long fights like WW dragons, but a bad Torpor interrupt can kill you. At the end of the day, all Shamans are so OP that Frontal Stun Immunity isn't a requirement, but this thread is about Min/Max specifically.

Starting stats for ogre are 5 agi 25 wisdom. With raid gear, I have 199 STR, 209 STA, and 208 WIS. With Riotous Health and Focus of Spirit, my STR and STA are CAPPED at 255. Only my WIS is still uncapped, and is therefore the stat you should dump the most starting stats into. I can only pump my WIS by 10 with Form of the Great Bear. My raid gear is a little more AC/Resistance focused, so you could pump those numbers up higher with Vulak loot (I am not BiS raid geared), but that is a LONG battle to get a shield of crafting, a ring from Vulak, and a ring from AoW.

Also, to Loramin's point about CHA, I wouldn't worry about it on a shaman. You can get over 100 CHA with Unfailing Reverence and a Crude Stein. Unless your faction is complete trash with the vendor, you will be at CHA vendor cap.

[loramin]

It boggles my mind that people don't understand this.

Let's say you pump 6 starting points into STA instead of WIS because you think, "I can just wear a +6 WIS ring and have the same amount of mana, plus more HP from the extra Stamina."

Sure. You'll end up with like 18 extra HP at level 60. Meanwhile, I'll be wearing my Djarn's ring that gives me +80 HP.

It's about trade offs and opportunity cost. You ALWAYS come out ahead pumping your primary stat at creation, because then you have more flexibility to wear very nice pieces of gear that DON'T have your primary stat (mostly HP and resist gear, few of which pieces also have great primary stats until deep into Velious).

People thinking they are somehow figuring out a new primary stat meta this deep into the game are deluding themselves. It's a primary stat for a reason. Stop overthinking it and shooting yourself in the foot in the process.

I mostly agree with the sentiment here, and for Shaman Stamina vs. Wisdom is probably a wash, because we have lots of gear that gives both. However, I'm not sure what that you wrote is true across the board. For instance, I've often heard that Charisma can be harder to get with gear, so it actually does make sense to put stat points into Charisma, so that later you can acquire the (easier) Int/Wis gear instead of the (harder) Charisma gear.

Again, not relevant for Shaman, but I'm just not sure it's always true that everyone should put their stat points into the primary stat.

P.S. Also, everyone always goes into these discussions thinking about BiS gear, but personally I think that's idiotic. Statistically the odds that any newbie asking for this kind of advice is even going to make it to "AA-level raiding" ... let alone is going to do it long enough to get a suit of BiS gear ... I mean it's like a hundred times more likely that they'll quit before they ever even hit soft maxs. And then conversely, ask anyone in a BiS suit who "misspent" their stat points (half a decade ago) if they even really care, and I'd bet the vast majority say no (the newbie with <100 Wisdom reading the forum probably cares more than they do).

[DeathsSilkyMist]

P.S. Also, everyone always goes into these discussions thinking about BiS gear, but personally I think that's idiotic. Statistically the odds that any newbie asking for this kind of advice is even going to make it to "AA-level raiding" ... let alone is going to do it long enough to get a suit of BiS gear ... I mean it's like a hundred times more likely that they'll quit before they ever even hit soft maxs. And then conversely, ask anyone in a BiS suit who "misspent" their stat points (half a decade ago) if they even really care, and I'd bet the vast majority say no (the newbie with <100 Wisdom reading the forum probably cares more than they do).

I disagree. The OP is specifically asking about Min/Max. That means you need to consider how the class plays at level 60, with Torpor, and above average gear. That is the point of Min/Max, you want to know what choices in the beginning of the game will have a benefit even in the endgame.

All Shamans with Torpor are super overpowered, so starting race and stats aren't a HUGE factor at the end of the day. All Shamans with Torpor can solo the same stuff. However, Min/Max implies the OP wants as much of an edge as he can get. This means an extra 25 wis of mana endgame, to cast a few more spells. This means Frontal Stun Immunity to decrease Torpor interrupts. This means being able to use a JBB, since it is still useful in certain situations. This is why Iksar is never a Min/Max candidate IMO, unless someone can prove math-wise the extra bit of AC is saving more HP than the mana and HP saved from a free nuke when needed.

If the OP was simply asking which Shaman race levels to 60 the easiest, that would be Troll hands down. You get extra regen, a snare clickie, and JBB at 46.

[Danth]

Min/Max race depends at least somewhat on playstyle. The value of the Ogre bash resist racial depends directly on how often the character gets hit in melee. It does nothing at all for a character who isn't being directly attacked. For soloists it's nice to have. Those Shamans who generally have someone else taking the hits are better-served with a regeneration racial ability.

Danth

[Jimjam]

I was gonna say min max means raiding and barby is best as it’s size is least obtrusive and they are least smelly in enclosed environment... but then I remember they are northmen so probably sweat like a cheese in kunark and velious has built in aircon. Bring in the requirement of ogrewall for tunare and barby is out the running.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Min/Max race depends at least somewhat on playstyle. The value of the Ogre bash resist racial depends directly on how often the character gets hit in melee. It does nothing at all for a character who isn't being directly attacked. For soloists it's nice to have. Those Shamans who generally have someone else taking the hits are better-served with a regeneration racial ability.

Danth

Frontal Stun Immunity is still great in groups. If you are the CCer, root breaks happen. Slow generates a lot of agro, and mobs can sometimes move over to you. Troll regen is even less effective in groups when you are not being hit. 2-3 Torpors will regen your entire health pool (unless you are BiS geared with aego, then 4 maybe). This means you have less time under max hp, because you are not getting hit. You are only losing HP to Canni, and therefore regen even less than solo play.

The regen is still better used in solo play, during long fights such as WW dragons. In a 15 minute fight, you get 1200hp, which is a nice little boost. But again, from much solo experience, I find the Frontal Stun Immunity more of a lifesaver, since a bad set of Torpor interrupts means death.

[magnetaress]

You don't need frontal stun immunity or regen to hit level 60 with BIS on this server or any other.

Let that sink in.

It's not necessary.

That said frontal stun immunity is nice, but the cost is steep, you are ugly and your butt will forever itch in shame.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

You don't need frontal stun immunity or regen to hit level 60 with BIS on this server or any other.

Let that sink in.

It's not necessary.

That said frontal stun immunity is nice, but the cost is steep, you are ugly and your butt will forever itch in shame.

I said twice in this thread FSI it is not a requirement for Shamans. This is a Min/Max thread, so determining which racial benefit is best is a valid point to make. All Shamans with Torpor can solo the same stuff. But Min/max means you want that extra 5% success rate on average, or whatever it comes out to be.

Also, Ogres look awesome. And my Ogre Shaman's last name is Wipesalot for a reason:D

[Sizar]

Also, Ogres look like shit and have the worst bear form

Fixed it for you

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Fixed it for you

Ogres look awesome, especially mine:D But I 100% agree, brown bear is the least attractive of the bear forms.

[DMN]

, I find the Frontal Stun Immunity more of a lifesaver, since a bad set of Torpor interrupts means death.

So cast it between bashes/kicks.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

So cast it between bashes/kicks.

Of course, but you can't always do that:) And what about multiple mobs? Pretty tough to time 2-3 mobs attacking you and bashing you simultaneously.

Untimely root breaks happen, Slow resists happen, etc. FSI is great for those situations where you have to act fast. Of course if you are in full control of the mob, FSI or Regen won't matter too much, due to the power of a Shaman.

[DMN]

Usually the mobs will all be reaching you at about the same time. So you should be free to cast after the round of combat without any trouble. I think at the end of the day a random stun or two was the difference between winning and losing, it was a stupid fight in the first place and you were just hoping to get lucky. Your spells could have been resisted, you could have also just been interrupted from the bashes as well.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Usually the mobs will all be reaching you at about the same time. So you should be free to cast after the round of combat without any trouble. I think at the end of the day a random stun or two was the difference between winning and losing, it was a stupid fight in the first place and you were just hoping to get lucky. Your spells could have been resisted, you could have also just been interrupted from the bashes as well.

I am not talking about "normal" situations, where the mobs are single pulls, the mobs are easy, you can cast at max distance, or you get no resists on your spells. When you are fighting a high risk fight, with 2+ monsters, every bit of damage mitigation and interruption prevention helps. I keep saying all Shamans can solo the same stuff. But having FSI allows you to recover from unlucky situations better; such as multiple resists when pulling multiple mobs, unlucky sets of interrupts and fizzles, etc.

FSI simply makes bad situations more manageable. This saves you HP and Mana, which is good for the current fight, and good for future fights if you are trying to keep respawn timers down.

Also, sometimes "dumb" fights are fun, if you want to stretch how far your Shaman can fight. Which again, is what Min/Max is all about:D