Necromancer Decision

[zoso]

Is it worth it to play a DE Necro?

What I mean is: When Kunark drops, am I going to feel compelled to re-roll an Iksar and level it 1-60 because the Iksar regen overpowers Dark Elf?

From what I've read, it's not just an issue of "min-max"; it's an issue of necessity.

Does anyone have any insight beyond the Sesserdix guide that basically says, "If you aren't Iksar, you're doing it wrong mathematically"?

[Indecisive]

This is an entirely personal question. Iksars are, hands down, the best racial choice for Necromancer. It's arguably the best class/race combination in the game. Does that mean a Dark Elf is not worth rolling? Certainly not. It's your character, and everyone has their own flavor. You'll still be able to do everything an Iksar can do, you'll just be less efficient in doing it.

[Endorra]

I've played both to 50+.

Sesserdrix is unequivocally correct from a hard math perspective. However, there are dimensions to your evaluation of worth that may change your perception.

The reason Iksar are so favored is because their regen offsets the loss of hp from Lich. There is no other solid, significant mathematical difference. INT and STA/HP gear is almost identically available across races. You can have capped int along with huge HP pools regardless of race at the endgame. Clickies and effects are not racially limited with any significant differences.

What does that mean? It means that, over time and without any compensating factors, the Iksar will exceed other races in efficiency. The total mana gain will be the same. The COST of that mana gain will be different. When you're considering an hours-long session, the regen gains will add up more and more. You'll end up needing to feed less to keep that mana regen going.

In terms of practicality, I would argue that the significance of this difference is not as big as some players tend to believe.

In classic and kunark, fights are very fast. Even VP fights either end in a dead dragon or a dead raid in <2-3 minutes max. When you're soloing or grouped, you have access to mobs to tap an overwhelming majority of the time. You'll need to tap more often, yes, but it's not like that cripples you.

In velious, fights slow down significantly, but there's still the availability of taps. You also end up having much more large-group fights where regen is readily available and doesn't frankly cost all that much.

In raids, you will likely always have access to regen. What do necros do in raids? They pull, train, CR, mana dump, use clickies/dispel, and minorly contribute to damage. Almost none of that is dependent up on your regen efficiency. If you're a mana dump, you're still going to gain mana at the same rate as the lizard next to you, you just need a regen on you to keep it up as efficiently. Not that big a deal. If you're CR summoning bodies, same situation.

There are also workarounds. Zlandi's heart, summoned eyeballs, potions, and the VP lifetap staff.

The iksar regen is powerful, it's most powerful at endgame, and it's a very very good quality of life boost. Sesserdrix is not "wrong." But the benefit is a matter of perspective, gear, and what you intend to do with your necro.

The biggest iksar benefit: recovery from a solo CR or bad pull will take less time. In a group setting or a raid setting, the skills of other players will really make the difference moreso than the necromancer.

Edit: I feel that I should point out that, on blue, the most effective necromancer of all time was a gnome. That being said, the sheer amount of gear that he had available is unlikely to be so concentrated on Green due to the timeline constraints. We did farm an awful lot of VP staves and Zlandi hearts on blue that won't be there on green. I still think my evaluation stands.

[GinnasP99]

It's worth noting there are a few very good HP items that iksars cannot wear. Iksars also can't wear golden efreeti armor if that's up your alley. Also, while hp regeneration is a big boon to an iksar necro, it's not like they're casting more powerful spells.

DE necros can also do this quest http://wiki.project1999.com/Reaper_of_the_Dead
Iksar cannot, at least not without insane faction work

[branamil]

Liking your character is more important than stats. It's an RPG not a math test.

[Vexenu]

Also worth pointing out that if your primary purpose for rolling the Necro is just as a farmer/first toon then regen is even less of a factor. Regen doesn't really start taking off until the 50s, and particularly 55+. A non-Iksar Necro isn't missing out on much until then. So if you don't intend to level the Necro all the way to 60 anyway then it's really not a concern at all.

[Crede]

There's no doubt that iksar's make the best necros. But from an xp perspective, you really have to be grinding hard for hours at a time and killing enough mobs for your highest level lich to be needed for regen to trump the 20% xp penalty. And from a raid perspective, you'd have to be running demi lich for a long time where you constantly need that mana for twiches. And if your raid is that reliant on inefficient necro twitch, then you should probably just roll a cleric to add to the CH chain.

The fact that this is an RPG game seems to be commonly ignored by the pro-iksar necros in every necro race threads.

Roll what race you will like staring at the most IMO and/or satisfies for RPG fantasies. You're not going to be a skeleton 100% of the time. If you honestly don't care about race, then yea it would probably make sense at that point to just be an iksar.

[ChooChoo Train]

Human necro with prenerf fungi staff and Ring 10 in full golden efreeti armor with DE mask is what people should really be striving for.

[GnomeCaptain]

This game isn't a tax return, it's not to be optimized mathematically.

Have fun, play whatever you want, race means literally nothing beyond what you like seeing.

[Tnair]

As someone who's never played a necromancer past the teens, obviously Dark Elf is the only choice. Innoruuk created necromancy ffs!

[commongood]

This game isn't a tax return, it's not to be optimized mathematically.

Have fun, play whatever you want, race means literally nothing beyond what you like seeing.

You are literally wrong. It has actual implications :)

I agree with the first part of that sentence though

[Snortles Chortles]

I can NOT stand being a lizard
Though I finally noticed ERU Lich @20+, I still find hp/mana mgmt a reasonably manageable challenge

GiT GuD

[Vexenu]

Erudite Necros are quite good. Between their innate high INT and having access to some easily attainable items high INT/mana that Iksar Necros can't use (i.e. GEBs, Mantle of Souls, Tome of Miragul) they end up with an enormous mana advantage over Iksars. I made these two Magelos awhile ago to demonstrate this. The gear here is mid-level Kunark era PvP/resist gear, but the mana discrepancy holds until endgame Velious gear. The Erudite Necro has about 500 more mana than the Iksar in comparable gear. That's enormous. This advantage is most expressed in PvP, but the math works out that Erudites are objectively mathematically better than Iksars until regen is able to work for about 15-20 minutes, at which point Iksars pull ahead in efficiency. However, it is doubtful they are ever able to maintain a 20% efficiency advantage when XPing, which makes them level slower despite their regen advantage. It's also worth noting that most 50+ Necro leveling when you're really using charm heavily does not benefit as much from Iksar regen, because you are finishing most kills with a Deflux lifetap anyway, the healing portion of which is simply wasted on an Iksar.

In summary, Erudite Necros are highly underrated. They are not better than Iksars overall, but they are easily a strong second place, and a closer runner up than most people would think.

https://wiki.project1999.com/Magelo_Blue:Iksarmancer

https://wiki.project1999.com/Magelo_Blue:Erudmancer

[DMN]

Is it worth it to play a DE Necro?

What I mean is: When Kunark drops, am I going to feel compelled to re-roll an Iksar and level it 1-60 because the Iksar regen overpowers Dark Elf?

From what I've read, it's not just an issue of "min-max"; it's an issue of necessity.

Does anyone have any insight beyond the Sesserdix guide that basically says, "If you aren't Iksar, you're doing it wrong mathematically"?

It's certainly not a necessity. It gives you a minor but notable bit of a bump in mana efficiency.

But I'm sure his guide doesn't mention the fact that if you are in many grouping and raid situations you'll often be able to have access to buffs that almost entirely offset the lich line's damage. There are also items,though rare and highly sought after, that will also increase HP regeneration and get you closer to offsetting the life lost,too.

The important take-away point is that a non iksar in lich regenerates the exact same amount of mana per tick as an Iksar one does.

Now you can come up with some theoretical scenarios where even if you offset the damage via buffs/gears the iksar can toss a HoT on someone every now and then if they had the same buffs/gear. But you are really getting down to minor details at that point.

So when considering playing a necro now or later so youcould take an iksar I'd think about several things:

1. do i plan to primarily solo or do I plan to group/raid more often? The closer you are to soloing mostly on this spectrum, the more you should consider iksar.

2a. How much do I care about acquiring the legacy items available when kunark arrives, as they will only be around a short time and many of them will require your toon to be 50+.

2b. If i do care about some of these items, can I spent umpteen hours a day every day of the week to catch up in time to get them with my necro or doI plan to skip rolling an iksar for a long time and use some other character before I finally go back to rolling up the iksar necro.

3. Can you stand to look like a bipedal lizard and have some of the most hideous animations ever seen in a game?


Full disclosure though,I have an icky necro on blue, but I started there long after velious had already been released.Apples/oranges.

[Keebz]

Erudite Necros ... are not better than Iksars overall, but they are easily a strong second place...


So what makes Erudites that much better than DE / Gnome? Is it just the 8-9 int and Mantle of Souls?

The int advantage seems somewhat offset by the 70 starting agi of the Erudite, esp. if you compensate with starting points.

I'm also curious how much more mana the mantle gives to a similarity available mantle for other races. I'm also assuming this washes out at some point with raid gear.

The gnome faction/infravision seem great, and people claim tinkering is good for creating probes to lifetap—though I am unsure how to rate this.

DE has hide/ultravision, which both have some value/utility. There is also a bunch of DE only crap, like CH sticks and the bind ring that have to be worth something.

Similar to OP, I'm strongly considering rolling a necro asap.

[Baler]

DE necros can also do this quest http://wiki.project1999.com/Reaper_of_the_Dead

This

ps. I rolled erudite necro, I have my reasons I don't care to share publicly atm.

[Jimjam]

Those resist gear erud vs necro profiles were really interesting. The Erud just slips ahead on MR and cumulative fire/cold. At first I was disappointed with the -25 hp on the erud… until I saw it has like 500 more mana than the necromancer.

That was crazy.I know people will say "It's easy to cap int on almost any necro", but I guess the erud does it earlier, so can start gearing with extra survival or mana gear earlier?

So what makes Erudites that much better than DE / Gnome? Is it just the 8-9 int and Mantle of Souls?.

Erud have +5Mr over most races. I don't think this is so important, but it's there. They start with 70 agi, which is disappointing; either you're fixing with gear and taking extra hits naked or you are putting starting points into it and losing 5 of that int advantage.

I do feel like the Erud is to casters as halflings were to melee; not given the credit they were due.

At least all the reputable halfling fighers of the forums; all your Filbuses, Eabbons, Gustoos and so ons, have raised the profile of the diminutive halfling in the eyes of the p99 community.

We need some equitable champions for the humble erudite out there - Dark Men is a good start, but we need more big personas doing things in and out of game!

This

ps. I rolled erudite necro, I have my reasons I don't care to share publicly atm.

Don't be ashamed, the female ones are cute. We won't mock you for your little 'dead sexy genie' :D:p

[DMN]

My necro on blue doesn't wear any + mana/int items unless they just happem to be on good +hp/ac items as well.


Necro has no reason to ever mana dump. only quaders should ever worry much about total mana pool.

[Snortles Chortles]

for my ERU NEC i went all points STA except for 5 STR
totally forgot about 75 AC so i wear a pear of Obsidian Bead Hoops
don't get hit naked?

[Vexenu]

My necro on blue doesn't wear any + mana/int items unless they just happem to be on good +hp/ac items as well.


Necro has no reason to ever mana dump. only quaders should ever worry much about total mana pool.

+HP is obviously hugely important for Necros, but saying that max mana pool doesn't matter is pretty silly. If you're doing something like breaking a room solo you might end up throwing out 6-7 Paralyzing Earth roots in a row. Those add up fast at 100 mana a pop. Then you might get a charm break, requiring a re-charm and a couple of Deflux casts to heal yourself back up. That's a total of 1400 mana you could chew through in about one minute if the shit hits the fan. And that's not exactly an uncommon scenario. The high end DoTs are mana-intensive too. Vexing and Pyro together are 900 mana.

So you definitely don't want to ignore your total mana pool entirely in favor of HP. There needs to be a balance. Both keep you alive. A Necro with zero health is obviously dead, but a Necro with zero mana is soon to be dead anyway, and useless in the meanwhile.

[DMN]

+HP is obviously hugely important for Necros, but saying that max mana pool doesn't matter is pretty silly. If you're doing something like breaking a room solo you might end up throwing out 6-7 Paralyzing Earth roots in a row. Those add up fast at 100 mana a pop. Then you might get a charm break, requiring a re-charm and a couple of Deflux casts to heal yourself back up. That's a total of 1400 mana you could chew through in about one minute if the shit hits the fan. And that's not exactly an uncommon scenario. The high end DoTs are mana-intensive too. Vexing and Pyro together are 900 mana.

So you definitely don't want to ignore your total mana pool entirely in favor of HP. There needs to be a balance. Both keep you alive. A Necro with zero health is obviously dead, but a Necro with zero mana is soon to be dead anyway, and useless in the meanwhile.

But as a necromancer you have an almighty reset button in FD. Regardless of how big your manapool is, RNG will eventually screw you over no matter what.

[kitao]

But as a necromancer you have an almighty reset button in FD. Regardless of how big your manapool is, RNG will eventually screw you over no matter what.

This is the key point - the root/rot, fear kite, charm undead is to keep a steady stream of mobs that matches mana regen and higher HP/regen allows this to continually happen by minimizing 'inefficient' taps.

[peterpal]

2a. How much do I care about acquiring the legacy items available when kunark arrives, as they will only be around a short time and many of them will require your toon to be 50+.


Can I ask what are some of the valuable kunark legacy items? I mainly played pre-kunark back then.

[Baler]

pre-kunark, Erudite/Dark Elf
Kunark+, Iksar
Velious+, Iksar

Iksar isn't just the min/max it's the only race you should play as necromancer if it's available.

[ChooChoo Train]

Erudite with prenerf fungi staff and a coldain ring 10(do these two effects stack) ?

[loramin]

Counterpoint: I made an Iksar Necro on Blue and I kind of regret not going Dark Elf.

Look, in general 90% of the forum arguing over race is idiotic. It's people taking extreme cases out of context, or making obviously false statements to justify the choices they made (eg. "regen will let you kill fast enough to make up for the XP penalty" ... I call bullshit on that for any race/class combo in the game!)

Even for Cannibalize/Lich and Racial Regen ... yes on paper the two absolutely do go together great ... but in practice you're pretty much never going to win or lose a fight because you got back 50 HP in regen over the course of the fight. 95+% of the time it will only lower your downtime after the fight (a bit), and practically speaking you won't notice the difference. Just think back (even if you've never played a regen character) on all the times you survived a fight with only 50 HP, and would have died otherwise: you can probably count them on one hand, because in EQ generally when you die it's not by such a small margin. I'd argue liking how your character looks > losing five fights over your entire character's life because you didn't have regen (and again, while it will reduce downtime, A) you won't notice, and B) the XP penalty will create a lot more "downtime" between 1 and 60 than the regen saves).

However, there is one undeniable thing about Necros (and Monks) with regen: Feign Death. When you are feigning death nothing (well, a Fungi on a Monk, but for a Necromancer nothing short of a Z Heart) will help you get back up faster ... except racial regen. So there's the one and only thing I think non-Iksar will truly "miss": when an Iksar FDes at low HP, he can get up noticeably sooner than a non-Iksar (and classes with FD will likely use it many times at low HP over the course of their life). We're still only talking about "Iksar gets up after ten minutes, non-Iksar gets up after fifteen", or whatever, but again because you'll be doing it a lot you likely will notice.

So, in general I truly think you should pick whichever race you want, and I truly believe you won't regret the decision even when you get to 60 (and I say this as a proud level 60 Barbarian Shaman ;)) ... and I believe this for Iksar Necros also. Again, I kinda do wish I'd picked Dark Elf, because I just am not big on Iksar personally.

But even as someone who is so vehemently a believer of "pick what you want on race" ... I have to admit there is a noticeable difference for Monks/Necros who choose (or don't choose) Iksar. Not a big one, or even major one, and not one that should decide your racial choice for you ... just a noticeable one ... which is more than I'd say about most racial differences.

[DMN]

What level is your necro though? You'll notice the difference more the higher you get. At 60 the iksar necro will be getting a "free" 11 mana per tick and the shaman about 6 a tick. For torpor shaman though it's most likely lower though since they won't be gettng a lot of their sitting ticks.

It's not so much about having a racial that wins you a fight, but one that lets you kill you more efficiently.

Gnomes are prolly the only race that realistically has a racial that has a chance of winning them fights, and it's purely related to their tinkering, particularly the haste arms.

[Dolalin]

At 60 the iksar necro will be getting a "free" 11 mana per tick and the shaman about 6 a tick.

Realistically, how much will you be soloing at level 60? At a raid you will always have regrowth so racial regen is moot.

Have a shorter but marginally harder grind to 60, or a much longer but slightly easier grind to 60?

Racial regen on a necro is a wash at best and not worth the xp penalty imo.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Erudite with prenerf fungi staff and a coldain ring 10(do these two effects stack) ?

No, Ring 10 and other Regen spells do NOT stack. Pre-Nerf Fungi Staff will overwrite Ring 10.

However, there is still some benefit to having both. Fungi Staff (Pre-Nerf and Post-Nerf) snares you, and removes run speed buffs such as Jboots and SoW. Therefore, you would use Fungi staff when sitting, and ring 10/Jboots/SoW when running.

[Scoojitsu]

Gnomes are prolly the only race that realistically has a racial that has a chance of winning them fights, and it's purely related to their tinkering, particularly the haste arms.

Can you elaborate? I can only see those tinkered arms with clicky haste, must equip, WAR CLR.
How does that help the necro?

[kjs86z]

The answer is Iksar.

Everything else is justification for your aesthetic preference.

[DMN]

Realistically, how much will you be soloing at level 60? At a raid you will always have regrowth so racial regen is moot.

Have a shorter but marginally harder grind to 60, or a much longer but slightly easier grind to 60?

Racial regen on a necro is a wash at best and not worth the xp penalty imo.

Obviously it depends on the player. But even if not soloing, mana efficiency is still a thing in grouping situations. Even in raids it might matter, at least for the shaman. You ever tried being the only shaman in a 30+ raid force? You are going to be casting buffs non-stop.

By the time you get in your 50s the regen will start largely offsetting the exp penalty if you are soloing.


Can you elaborate? I can only see those tinkered arms with clicky haste, must equip, WAR CLR.
How does that help the necro?

it doesn't help a necro. I was just responding someone talking about racial abilities and whether they are strong enough to win fights for you.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

I agree with a previous poster on this thread. If your goal is to get a Necromancer to 50 so you can farm plat, then you should roll a Necromancer now. This allows you to get to 50 ASAP, and maximize your plat gains. I doubt the reduced downtime from the HP regen will offset the months of not farming plat while you wait for Kunark. I would recommend Gnome in this case, due to Tinkering. Kill guards for plat. Tinker for plat.

If you plan on getting a Necromancer to 60 to raid and solo high level monsters, wait until Kunark and roll an Iksar. The HP regen is too big a bonus to pass up. Even if you hate the way Iksars look, you will be in Skeleton Form most of the time anyway.

The other thing to consider is: Why not both? Make a 50 Necromancer now to get plat and Necromancer items. Then, give all that stuff to your new Iksar Necromancer whenever you want to make the switch. The 50 Necromancer will still be able to plat farm naked, and you can use the 50 Necromancer to research Necromancer Spells for your Iksar. If they are a Gnome, they will still be able to Tinker as well.

[loramin]

By the time you get in your 50s the regen will start largely offsetting the exp penalty if you are soloing.

On paper for a Necro I strongly disagree with this: as you get higher, mobs take much longer to kill, so while yes you'll regen more at higher levels, that regen will result in a minimal reduction of your downtime (and your overall leveling time) ... and I strongly suspect that it won't even come close to making up for the XP penalty.

However, my Necro isn't in his 50's yet, so I can't swear to that (it's certainly true for Shaman though).

Obviously it depends on the player. But even if not soloing, mana efficiency is still a thing in grouping situations. Even in raids it might matter, at least for the shaman. You ever tried being the only shaman in a 30+ raid force? You are going to be casting buffs non-stop.

On the other hand, I very strongly agree with this :) And heck, even if you've got a second Shaman on the raid, between buffing, debuffing, and slowing, mana goes fast!

[Vexenu]

As I touched on earlier in this thread, if you're soloing a Necro for XP from 50-60 you will ideally be charming somewhere like HS or KC. When you charm solo on a Necro you end your fights by killing both your former pet and the mob you were fighting, getting XP for both. The ideal way to do this is to time the kill so that you can finish each off with a single cast of Deflux (lifetap). Sometimes you might even require an extra cast of Deflux to finish off the mob. Because of the risk of charm breaks you will also want to make sure you keep your health from dropping too low, so you might throw in an extra tap during the fight.

The point I'm getting at is that if you are charm soloing a Necro at 50+ you end up lifetapping A LOT by necessity, and just because Iksars regen more health doesn't mean they don't have to lifetap as much. They still have to finish off those mobs and a lifetap is the most efficient way to do so. They simply don't get as much benefit from the lifetap heal.

In other words, the additional Iksar regen ends up providing very little value. They still have to cast just as many lifetaps to kill their mobs. They expend the same amount of mana per kill. They just don't heal themselves as much from the tap because their regen picks up the difference.

Example:

Iksar Necro currently at 75% health and 80% mana, finishes his charm kill with 2 casts of Deflux, one per mob. Ends up with 100% health and 60% mana.

Erudite Necro currently at 60% health and 80% mana, finishes his charm kill with 2 casts of Deflux, one per mob. Ends up with 100% health and 60% mana.

So ultimately the Iksar is paying a 20% XP penalty for regen which is providing very little value in this context. This is NOT to say that Iksar regen is useless, or even that Iksars are not the best min/max race. But regen is about pure efficiency, and there are inefficiencies built into Necro charming (in the form of lifetap finishing blows) that allow the other races to be very competitive, if not objectively better in terms of XP/hour.

[DMN]

On paper for a Necro I strongly disagree with this: as you get higher, mobs take much longer to kill, so while yes you'll regen more at higher levels, that regen will result in a minimal reduction of your downtime (and your overall leveling time) ... and I strongly suspect that it won't even come close to making up for the XP penalty.


Not quite following your logic on mobs taking longer to kill. At around 55-56, you will be regenerating about 10 more HP as an iksar. Necromancers can generally convert hp to mana in close to 1 to 1 ratio. So we have lich 25+ meditate +20. You can see just by looking at the raw numbers 25% just on the raw numbers here 10/45 = 22%. Of course it's not the whole picture because necromancers can launder hit points via mana use. But calculating that is very complicate or would require a ton of qualifications regarding combat strategy and spell usage. I did the math on it before and found Iksar will kill about 10% faster when not charming, and about 15% faster when charming solo but only at 60. So while you will never completely make up for the penalty, you will cut around half of it.

[loramin]

By the time you get in your 50s the regen will start largely offsetting the exp penalty if you are soloing.

So while you will never completely make up for the penalty, you will cut around half of it.

You went from "largely offsetting" to "around half" :) But really that's all I was trying to say: both purely by the numbers, and if you consider the actual details of play (see Vexenu's post above) regen does not make up for the XP penalty (or at least not fully).

Since you're saying as much, I think we're both in total agreement. If you pick a regen race, it will take you a (meaningfully) longer time to get to 60: as an Iksar, the regen will not let you keep up with a Dark Elf Necromancer or Barbarian Shaman.

As for whether the difference is exactly "largely offsetting" (which would be maybe 80%?) or "around half" (50%) ... or whatever other number? I imagine that largely depends on what level you are, where you hunt, etc. so I don't think there's one right number.

I just don't want anyone thinking that number is 100% or higher.

[DMN]

You went from "largely offsetting" to "around half" :) But really that's all I was trying to say: both purely by the numbers, and if you consider the actual details of play (see Vexenu's post above) regen does not make up for the XP penalty (or at least not fully).


I'd assume someone concerned about optimal leveling speed would be taking the optimal path, which would be charming. That one was 15%, or 75% of the exp penalty.

[kjs86z]

As I touched on earlier in this thread, if you're soloing a Necro for XP from 50-60 you will ideally be charming somewhere like HS or KC. When you charm solo on a Necro you end your fights by killing both your former pet and the mob you were fighting, getting XP for both. The ideal way to do this is to time the kill so that you can finish each off with a single cast of Deflux (lifetap). Sometimes you might even require an extra cast of Deflux to finish off the mob. Because of the risk of charm breaks you will also want to make sure you keep your health from dropping too low, so you might throw in an extra tap during the fight.

The point I'm getting at is that if you are charm soloing a Necro at 50+ you end up lifetapping A LOT by necessity, and just because Iksars regen more health doesn't mean they don't have to lifetap as much. They still have to finish off those mobs and a lifetap is the most efficient way to do so. They simply don't get as much benefit from the lifetap heal.

In other words, the additional Iksar regen ends up providing very little value. They still have to cast just as many lifetaps to kill their mobs. They expend the same amount of mana per kill. They just don't heal themselves as much from the tap because their regen picks up the difference.

Example:

Iksar Necro currently at 75% health and 80% mana, finishes his charm kill with 2 casts of Deflux, one per mob. Ends up with 100% health and 60% mana.

Erudite Necro currently at 60% health and 80% mana, finishes his charm kill with 2 casts of Deflux, one per mob. Ends up with 100% health and 60% mana.

So ultimately the Iksar is paying a 20% XP penalty for regen which is providing very little value in this context. This is NOT to say that Iksar regen is useless, or even that Iksars are not the best min/max race. But regen is about pure efficiency, and there are inefficiencies built into Necro charming (in the form of lifetap finishing blows) that allow the other races to be very competitive, if not objectively better in terms of XP/hour.


Lots of bad paper napkin math and flawed logic going on here.

You started with a weak argument and made it worse by providing one very specific vacuum-esque circumstance.

RNG happens. Mistakes are made. Any time your perfect little scenario goes south, Iksar regen cushions the blow and keeps things going. The exp penalty is a moot point. Its just 20% more mobs to kill on your way to 60 which means you'll have more money to blow on your big boy spells.

Also once Necro hits 49 and gets PE, if you're only engaging 2 mobs at a time (pet + 1) you're doing it wrong.

[Baler]

The thing about racial regen is that it never turns off.

You get buff stripped or wipe at a fight/raid. You still have racial regen.
You got buffed with regrowth. You also still have racial regen.

Racial Regen is underrated in my opinion. However it is pras'd by necromancers in a way it's unappreciated by other classes. People write it off as some "small" bonus. When in fact it's a permanent constant forever.

---


Question: Starting Stats, Creation Points...
All stamina?,. in a world with end game velious gear.

[aaezil]

Hahah look at the people who rolled de necro on green flocking to defend their poor choice here.

[Snortles Chortles]

Liking your character is more important than stats. It's an RPG not a math test.

[Baler]

DE Necro only has to be level ~30 to fully complete the reaper quest right?
or minimal level if you get the stuff on your main.

[Vexenu]

Lots of bad paper napkin math and flawed logic going on here.

You started with a weak argument and made it worse by providing one very specific vacuum-esque circumstance.

RNG happens. Mistakes are made. Any time your perfect little scenario goes south, Iksar regen cushions the blow and keeps things going. The exp penalty is a moot point. Its just 20% more mobs to kill on your way to 60 which means you'll have more money to blow on your big boy spells.

Also once Necro hits 49 and gets PE, if you're only engaging 2 mobs at a time (pet + 1) you're doing it wrong.

I said flat out my example only applied to charming. I've played both Iksar and non-Iksar Necros. The Iksar is definitely preferable, especially if you can gear him out well (the low INT is very noticeable otherwise). But people seem to imply that Iksar regen is so good that the other races are borderline unplayable. Which is ridiculous. Here are the facts about Necros:

1) Racial regen is hardly noticeable until 50+.
2) Iksar low INT/mana pool is very noticeable until you acquire high-end gear.
3) If you're charming 50-60, regen doesn't much come into play.
4) Regen does provides a noticeable efficiency advantage at high end when not charming.
5) Iksar is the undisputed min/max race.
6) VP Soul Well staff/Zlandicar's Heart/Holgresh Beads/Ring 10 provide high-end options for non-Iksar Necros to be more efficient.
7) There is very little reason to main a Necro anyway if you are a min/max type, endgame-focused player because they are an extremely boring and non-essential raid class for the most part. If you're that concerned about min/maxing, roll a pure melee, Cleric or Wizard and go carry your weight in raids.
8) There is nothing that an Iksar Necro can do that a similarly geared non-Iksar cannot also do.
9) Necro, regardless of race, is still the #1 most versatile, safest and self-sufficient solo class in the game.
10) FashionQuest ultimately rules all, this is an electronic elf simulator with no win condition. If you don't enjoy looking at the character you're sinking hundreds of hours into you're doing it wrong.

[loramin]

1) Racial regen is hardly noticeable until 50+.
2) Iksar low INT/mana pool is very noticeable until you acquire high-end gear.
3) If you're charming 50-60, regen doesn't much come into play.
4) Regen does provides a noticeable efficiency advantage at high end when not charming.
5) Iksar is the undisputed min/max race.
6) VP Soul Well staff/Zlandicar's Heart/Holgresh Beads/Ring 10 provide high-end options for non-Iksar Necros to be more efficient.
7) There is very little reason to main a Necro anyway if you are a min/max type, endgame-focused player because they are an extremely boring and non-essential raid class for the most part. If you're that concerned about min/maxing, roll a pure melee, Cleric or Wizard and go carry your weight in raids.
8) There is nothing that an Iksar Necro can do that a similarly geared non-Iksar cannot also do.
9) Necro, regardless of race, is still the #1 most versatile, safest and self-sufficient solo class in the game.
10) FashionQuest ultimately rules all, this is an electronic elf simulator with no win condition. If you don't enjoy looking at the character you're sinking hundreds of hours into you're doing it wrong.

Truth.

[kjs86z]

1) Racial regen is hardly noticeable until 50+.
(20-49 its double any other necro race choice and helps offset lich line)

2) Iksar low INT/mana pool is very noticeable until you acquire high-end gear.
(lots of cheap caster options on blue for very little plat)

3) If you're charming 50-60, regen doesn't much come into play.
(what? no)

6) VP Soul Well staff/Zlandicar's Heart/Holgresh Beads/Ring 10 provide high-end options for non-Iksar Necros to be more efficient.
(yeah sure 150k z heart, 400k beads, VP key + boss kills and Ring 10...lots of good options for a leveling necro)

7) There is very little reason to main a Necro anyway if you are a min/max type, endgame-focused player because they are an extremely boring and non-essential raid class for the most part. If you're that concerned about min/maxing, roll a pure melee, Cleric or Wizard and go carry your weight in raids.
(https://youtu.be/pWdd6_ZxX8c)

8) There is nothing that an Iksar Necro can do that a similarly geared non-Iksar cannot also do.
(until you start looking at output over extended durations)

[Philistine]

What motivated me to go Ikky was the knowledge that once I (eventually) hit 60, the xp penalty wouldn't be very relevant, but I'd keep the superior regen forever. With the talk of possible introduction of AA's to blue that math changes - I'm unlikely to ever max AA's, and thus will be paying for my regen forever.

I vote you play what you like - they've all got their ups and downs.

[Tyrant82]

Edit: I feel that I should point out that, on blue, the most effective necromancer of all time was a gnome. That being said, the sheer amount of gear that he had available is unlikely to be so concentrated on Green due to the timeline constraints. We did farm an awful lot of VP staves and Zlandi hearts on blue that won't be there on green. I still think my evaluation stands.

If we are talking about the same one, the Gnome soloing in Hate or Fear, then i remember him as a good fellow for that time. But the time came and he got banned from P99, Twitch and after those years i even forgot his name :(

[7thGate]

Loramin has made the argument before that the XP penalty is more relevant than people give it credit for. Depending on how much you play, this can very much be the case.

Until level 60, I'm extremely skeptical that a Iksar necro compares to a non-Iksar because you're one level higher on the non-Iksar and the large regen difference hasn't kicked in yet. An extra level is a much larger benefit than the increased regen. You're going to need to consider what percent of the total time you're going to play this character is going to be spent at 60 vs. below 60.

I took over 2 years to hit 60 on Jayya, and the percentage of playtime at 60 vs. below 60 for her is something like 1 to 20 right now. She's not a necromancer, but if she had had the option to be Iksar it would have been a terrible choice since she would still be level 58.

On the flip side, if you're going to hit 60 in two months and actively raid for years, fair enough. XP penalty is not terribly relevant in that case.

[Oddbaal]

Would a human necromancer who follows Bertoxxulous be able to compete quests such as Crushbone belts without being KoS in the dwarven city?

[loramin]

Would a human necromancer who follows Bertoxxulous be able to compete quests such as Crushbone belts without being KoS in the dwarven city?

I don't know starting Human/Bertox faction in Kaladim (hopefully someone else does), but just killing in Crushbone gives you Storm Guard faction. I believe that's the faction Canloe Nusback (the belts guy) is on, as well as the dwarves around him (and the ones guarding the gate).

Thus, it stands to reason that if you kill long enough in Crushbone, it doesn't matter how low you start: you should be able to raise it to the point where you can turn in belts ... and since evil humans tend to have significantly better starting faction vs. true evil races, it likely wouldn't even take you all that much killing.

But that's just forum theoryquesting, so again hopefully someone withe experience can speak up.

[Oddbaal]

I don't know starting Human/Bertox faction in Kaladim (hopefully someone else does), but just killing in Crushbone gives you Storm Guard faction. I believe that's the faction Canloe Nusback (the belts guy) is on, as well as the dwarves around him (and the ones guarding the gate).

Thus, it stands to reason that if you kill long enough in Crushbone, it doesn't matter how low you start: you should be able to raise it to the point where you can turn in belts ... and since evil humans tend to have significantly better starting faction vs. true evil races, it likely wouldn't even take you all that much killing.

But that's just forum theoryquesting, so again hopefully someone withe experience can speak up.

Thanks Loramin. I may be finding out soon enough on my first alt. The urge to roll a human necromancer with an eyepatch is strong.

[Snortles Chortles]

i've encountered a few situations on my ERU necro where having an immense mana pool saved my life breaking a camp
why wait til november to have fun when you can have fun (and practice) now
/shrug

[Oddbaal]

i've encountered a few situations on my ERU necro where having an immense mana pool saved my life breaking a camp
why wait til november to have fun when you can have fun (and practice) now
/shrug

What was your ERU leveling path, if you don’t mind me asking Snortles?
Did you — or were you able to do CB belt turn ins?

[Snortles Chortles]

BB Druid Stones Skeletons
BB Chessboard Skeletons
NRO Orcs, Dervs, Oasis Group
CB Throne Room Group
UGuK Spiders Duo, Scryer Group
Unrest MR Group
MM GY Group
Permafrost Group
Paw ZL group
CT throne group
Unrest FP/Basement Group/Hags Solo
LGuK ZL Duo
Oasis SGs/Spectres/Deepwater Goblins duo/group
Kedge ZL group
MM CE group

[Snortles Chortles]

LGuK