Warrior VS monk/ranger DPS face tanking?

[Gatorsmash]

Who wins the DPS race face tanking warrior or monk/ranger?

Bunch of my friends are putting a static group together and this came up, I've never had a warrior so I'm on the fence on troll or halfling. I know ogre has the min-max stat pool but the regen or sneak-hide really caught my eye

Edit- and just to check, halfling warriors can't use sneak hide at the same time right? Only rogues?

[ineubis]

All halflings have basic hide/sneak. Only rogues can skill-up in it though.

Target mob, click hide until they con indifferent. Then click sneak until it says "You move as silent as a cat stalking its prey".

When moving while hidden and sneaking, it is extremely slow. You move at a slow walk. Just FYI.

[Sonderbeast]

Assuming you are intending to go with a leveling/grouping toon an average geared monk will out class a warrior in damage every time.

As long as its an iksar monk it will have enough sustain with mend/regen and AC mitigation to tank as well if not better than a warrior except for some named.

So enjoy your new iksar monk I guess is what I'm sayin'.

[Droxx]

All halflings have basic hide/sneak. Only rogues can skill-up in it though.

Target mob, click hide until they con indifferent. Then click sneak until it says "You move as silent as a cat stalking its prey".

When moving while hidden and sneaking, it is extremely slow. You move at a slow walk. Just FYI.

They only stack for rogues.

[Gozuk]

Troll and Halfling are solid choices. Hard to argue with the raw stats and regen that a Troll has to offer BUT their sheer size is something to consider if you guys will be frequenting dungeons. If you have a Shaman in the group.. shouldn't be a big deal as they get the Shrink spell relatively early.

DPS wise... assuming things are pretty equal as far as weapons/haste goes.. typically it's going to be Monk>War>Ranger.

You're also correct in that Halfling Warrior (or any class outside of Rogue) cannot use hide/sneak in combination to get around. Hide can be used for invis/ivu and sneak can be used to be.... sneaky. Just gotta stay behind the mobs for the most part

[DMN]

Who wins the DPS race face tanking warrior or monk/ranger?

Bunch of my friends are putting a static group together and this came up, I've never had a warrior so I'm on the fence on troll or halfling. I know ogre has the min-max stat pool but the regen or sneak-hide really caught my eye

Edit- and just to check, halfling warriors can't use sneak hide at the same time right? Only rogues?

Are you talking about blue or the new servers?(it matter big time) And no, a halfling warrior cannot sneak and hide at the same time. You can only sneak, so you have to stay outside of about a 120% degree angle in front of the NPC.

[kaizersoze]

If you root mobs, face tanking hardly matters really. But if you want snap agro, since warriors got wrecked in chardok 2.0 patch, Id say SK or monk personally.

[Gatorsmash]

Are you talking about blue or the new servers?(it matter big time) And no, a halfling warrior cannot sneak and hide at the same time. You can only sneak, so you have to stay outside of about a 120% degree angle in front of the NPC.

Starting new on green. I have a level 9 human monk now but was going to reroll warrior to tank mobs better with an actual healer, but since it's going to be only 4 of us wondered if the difference in dps would be noticeable aka my shadowknight dps (my sk is too high level currently) to us

[DMN]

A monk gets absolutely nothing close to something like DPS of a mith 2 hander. So its probabaly going to come down to how good gear the warrior has versus monk.

you could try during the low to mid levels swapping in a decent 2 hand blunt attack between your off and attacks. But it would probably kill your AC as all the decent 2hd weapons weigh a ton.

[Snaggles]

What’s the rest of your team and what are you trying to do? A bard can tank in xp groups even on green.

[Jimjam]

Are you talking about blue or the new servers?(it matter big time) And no, a halfling warrior cannot sneak and hide at the same time. You can only sneak, so you have to stay outside of about a 120% degree angle in front of the NPC.
Slight point of contention, halflings (except halfling rogues) (and rangers) can hide and sneak simultaneously, but can't move around with hide activated, even while sneaking, without breaking hide.

[kjs86z]

How many players in the static group and what other classes?

Is this on Blue or Green / Teal?

Do you have any end game (raiding) aspirations?

[Keebz]

On Green, I'd bet Warrior. Warrior DPS is underrated in general. As an MT, however, be aware you're gonna have a rough time holding aggro. If you're in a static group of friends, it may be less of a problem, though.

As for race, I have both Troll and Halfling Warriors. Both are great for different reasons. Hide/Sneak is very useful and being small/good factioned has serious benefits. Troll on the other hand doesn't need to swap a shield to bash, has slightly better stats and most importantly gets a nice innate regen. Given DE mask is in the game, I'd go Troll out of those choices, unless you want access to good factioned places.

The Ranger is the worst at just face tanking things, but it could be a solid choice–if you want/need snap aggro, root, snare, track. Requires a bit of finesse and involves lots of Ranger-shaming, of course.

Monk seems like a very bad choice for MT on Green, but I'm sure it's workable with enough effort. The Monk skills are good, but the gear is lacking in classic. Good for indoor pulling however. I personally am waiting til kunark/velious to roll a monk.

[Snaggles]

It totally depends.

Yea, in terms of mitigation warrior then monk. Do you need taunt? hat tips to the warrior. Do you need an indoor puller? Hat tips to the monk.

How about an outdoor puller? Do you have someone to track/snare/add lowbie druid buffs? Go ranger. Thorns itself is nice for passive dps increase.

Pallies can stun and throw lowbie cleric buffs (do you have a cleric?). SK's can snare and FD split.

It really depends on what you want to do and how well you want to do it. Like I said before, if you really wanted to play a bard you could tank for a 4-person group easy. Same goes for a shaman. If you wanna exp off LDC's in Sol b on green, it's gonna be more rough than some combos.

This is a pretty easy game. Just gotta click the needed boxes and be better than the NPC's...

[wagorf]

damn ppl either can't read or talk too much, OP is asking who has better dps while face tanking, and obviously he's talking about general static group xping and not end game level/gears

so general answer is monk > both war and ranger for his scenario

[DMN]

damn ppl either can't read or talk too much, OP is asking who has better dps while face tanking, and obviously he's talking about general static group xping and not end game level/gears

so general answer is monk > both war and ranger for his scenario

No it's not, as I explained.

Unless P99s caombat mchanics have been heavily rigged in favor of DWing, even an SK or paladin will prolly out damage a monk, with a mith. Certainly ogre/troll SKs will.

[Duckwalk]

A monk gets absolutely nothing close to something like DPS of a mith 2 hander. So its probabaly going to come down to how good gear the warrior has versus monk.

you could try during the low to mid levels swapping in a decent 2 hand blunt attack between your off and attacks. But it would probably kill your AC as all the decent 2hd weapons weigh a ton.

I find this hard to believe. Maybe I missed something important and OP has the resources to put a mithril 2hnder on a warrior twink at low levels but aside from that..

At 50 the monks fists alone are 14/30. Only slightly worse than 21/40 of the Mith2hnder. Assuming non planar gear/dragon haste does the 10% extra worn haste attached to the Mith2hnder overcome significant higher offense, double attack, dual wield, and flying kick from the monk?

Assuming planar/dragon gear I’d say the monk easily pulls ahead with 16/27 Wu’s fists or even 14/28 Treant Fist and 36% dragon haste.

[Snaggles]

damn ppl either can't read or talk too much, OP is asking who has better dps while face tanking, and obviously he's talking about general static group xping and not end game level/gears

so general answer is monk > both war and ranger for his scenario

Or we were drinking heavily :p.

I still think the dps face tanking premise is a bit silly. It’s a VERY small part of the group dynamic even for a “static group” or whatever that means. In either case I expect mitigation parses will be close.

Does the OP have like 8k plat on green for a mith?? If not that changes things up and we should ask more questions...

[Duckwalk]

What the composition of your static group?

[Snaggles]

Sorry about the “silly” part.

Yes, like Duck said composition is very important.

As is budget for droppable gear and if the OP will raid. A warrior with BiS droppable/no drop is not the same as dual Langseax. A monk across all expansions is pretty cheap and easy to gear; not as easy as a bard but the performance/plat ratio is extremely high.

[DMN]

I find this hard to believe. Maybe I missed something important and OP has the resources to put a mithril 2hnder on a warrior twink at low levels but aside from that..

At 50 the monks fists alone are 14/30. Only slightly worse than 21/40 of the Mith2hnder. Assuming non planar gear/dragon haste does the 10% extra worn haste attached to the Mith2hnder overcome significant higher offense, double attack, dual wield, and flying kick from the monk?

Assuming planar/dragon gear I’d say the monk easily pulls ahead with 16/27 Wu’s fists or even 14/28 Treant Fist and 36% dragon haste.

Those weapons don't and won't exist for a long time. Mith has about 20% better ratio, and 10% better haste than monk fists, but tha't s bit of bullshit compariso alreadysicne you don't start the game at level 50. But the main thing is a DPSing tank is going to have a lot more ability to equip tanking gear tiwh +str while a monk is usually having to choose between str and AC/resists. Like where the monk will have an FBSS the tank can have a TBB, for example.

[Duckwalk]

Those weapons don't and won't exist for a long time. Mith has about 20% better ratio, and 10% better haste than monk fists, but tha't s bit of bullshit compariso alreadysicne you don't start the game at level 50. But the main thing is a DPSing tank is going to have a lot more ability to equip tanking gear tiwh +str while a monk is usually having to choose between str and AC/resists. Like where the monk will have an FBSS the tank can have a TBB, for example.

Right, just like the warrior won't have 8K(?) when they start the game. I guess I'm mistaken regarding the order in which content was introduced. When is Sky available? Assumed it was pretty soon after Hate and Fear which we are already approaching?

Regardless, a fresh group in rags isn't going to be buying their warrior a Mith2hnder anytime soon. A fresh warrior playing with friends will be in bronze and considering himself lucky to have any of the below:

Gnoll Hide Lariat - .15
Bladed Thulian Claws - .26
Langseax - .26
Combine Longsword - .21

By level 20 the naked monk will have .22 fists which turn to .29 at 30. I think you have some misconceptions regarding the gear levels of a new group of fresh players.

[DMN]

Then switch to one of several good 2hd weapons available. silvery two handed axe, Langseax, etc.

[Snaggles]

Well on green didn't they roll back all the 2h changes? Without a damage bonus, especially a scaling one, most 2h while better perhaps than lowbie 1h's are not "good".

It's just theory-crafting but I expect the only way a 2h warrior is going to out-dps a monk at 50 with fists is with a Mithril 2h, Sunderfury or similar high-end weapon. All of those take significantly more work to acquire than doing nothing at all.

Comparing a warrior to say a ranger/sk/pally the Executioner Axe is a nice budget option to dual-Ykesha's or even EBW's. 14/30 fists are pretty hard to beat though especially with the skill caps below:


Warrior skill caps @ 50
1h or 2h - 200
Double attack - 205
Dual wield - 210
Offense - 210
Defense 210
Riposte - 200
Parry - 200
Dodge - 140

Monk skill caps @ 50
H2h - 225
Double attack - 210
Dual wield - 252
Offense - 230
Defense - 230
Riposte - 200
Block - 200
Dodge - 200

Note: I still stand to believe group make-up is more important than skill caps/ dps/mitigation per second. There is even a case for a ranger if you dont have a SOW/snare class, can put harmony to use or need an aggro-tank.
Flame lick ftw.

[Duckwalk]

Then switch to one of several good 2hd weapons available. silvery two handed axe, Langseax, etc.

Langseax of the Wolves - .43
Silvery Two Handed Axe - .437

Comparable to what monks get for free at 45 (.41) and worse than 50 (.466). One is extremely faction dependent and the other a 45+ camp in the most isolated dungeon in vanilla.

Also Snaggles is right to point out that this is before the changes to two hand damage bonus tables which massively increased two hand dps. Before the best dps was almost exclusively from 1 handers, at least for classes that could dual wield.

The point being though that its not just as simple as saying "well give the warrior a mith2hnder". Depending on group composition a warrior might be the right choice but will generally require more gear. If they were running with a shaman healer for instance its almost certainly better that an SK or Monk will vastly outperform the warrior in a typical group setting.

[Dogma]

Monk also benefits from the ability that they can drag your friends dead corpses to a safe spot when they all die cuz you picked a sissy monk instead of a mighty warrior.

You only win the race if you can cross the finish line.

[Duckwalk]

This is true. If you'd rather play a mighty warrior constantly beating back hordes of enemies because they lack any means of controlling their pulls, this class is for you !

Everquest, the game that absolutely has a finish line.

[Gatorsmash]

What’s the rest of your team and what are you trying to do? A bard can tank in xp groups even on green.

Hey sorry for the delay, got lost in alts and forgot I posted this.

I went to lvl 15 on the monk then rolled troll warrior. I have a max monk on blue but here in classic I find it incredibly boring. I rolled troll warrior and been having a blast mixing and matching weapons and general warrior stuff.

We haven't had much luck with a static group but somebody is bringing a cleric up to lvl with us - and let me just say holly fuck shamans are great but damn they lag in the heal dept even with slows. Stand totally corrected on that

[Duckwalk]

If you slow everything and keep regen on your tank, you will almost never have to heal which is doable at 24 around I think. At 29 they get greater heal and will be dependent on that until 51 when they finally get superior heal. Which holds them over for the most part until 60 and torpor.

Shaman and enchanters both seem pretty miserable until about 30 then constantly grown in power from there.

Have fun playing the troll warrior. Class is irrelevant if you don't like playing it.

[Dogma]

Slows suck until 50-75%. Better off just canni-dancing and healing.

[mattydef]

Troll and Halfling are solid choices. Hard to argue with the raw stats and regen that a Troll has to offer BUT their sheer size is something to consider if you guys will be frequenting dungeons. If you have a Shaman in the group.. shouldn't be a big deal as they get the Shrink spell relatively early.

DPS wise... assuming things are pretty equal as far as weapons/haste goes.. typically it's going to be Monk>War>Ranger.

You're also correct in that Halfling Warrior (or any class outside of Rogue) cannot use hide/sneak in combination to get around. Hide can be used for invis/ivu and sneak can be used to be.... sneaky. Just gotta stay behind the mobs for the most part