New Bard w/ some questions

[chey]

Hey all, I'm new-ish to the game and Green server and enjoying my time here after finally settling on a class. The utility, supportive toolset, and active playstyle of a bard really appeals to me; the only problem is, it seems like an easy class to play poorly. So I figured it's better to ask questions now, when I'm level 6, than not know something vital later.

#1: What stats should I prioritize when I can get gear? I've read that DEX affects procs and missing notes, and that CHA affects lulls/charms, which both seem pretty important. Anything else I should know?

#2: In a party, should I be meleeing, or using instruments? I've read some conflicting opinions over this, with some people deriding 'lazy bards' who only use instruments, and others saying that the boost from the instrument is a better help than a bard's wimpy melee DPS.

#3: What's a good duo partner for a Bard?

[DMN]

1. you might want to look at a bunch of different sets of armor/gear depending on what you'd be doing. A cha set for charming, a good tanking set with AC/HP, and dex in general helps.

2. depends on party and your level... generally as you level your songs will become more and more impactful than melee, and additionally it also depends on how big the party is, the smaller the party generally the more useful meleeing might be. But every situation is going to be different and you will slowly learn whats most effective and when.

3. Almost anything after you get mana song, charm and fear.

[Videri]

Hi OP,

1. Ignore charisma. It doesn't matter for bard charms as they last 18 seconds anyway. The most important thing you can do is use charm, lull, and mez on blue mobs. Level disparity between yourself and the target makes a MUCH bigger difference than charisma. If you lull blue mobs, your charisma won't matter. I'd advise putting zero points in charisma and just avoid using lull on yellow+ mobs. If you have to, equip one or two big charisma items like opallines or a stein. Don't gear for charisma, either.

I recommend aspiring bards do some research on this and compare the value you'd get from charisma (tiny, and applies only in rare situations) versus the value you'd get from stamina (small, but applies much more often).

Please read my post here: https://www.project1999.com/forums/showthread.php?p=3037436#post3037436

Additional threads with info you may find useful:
https://www.project1999.com/forums/showthread.php?t=295878
https://www.project1999.com/forums/showthread.php?t=344860
https://www.project1999.com/forums/showthread.php?t=317022
https://www.project1999.com/forums/showthread.php?t=318170

I'd go all stamina and the rest in strength. I understand if it's hard to resist the urge to put points in dex, though.

2. It depends on what the situation is, and what songs you're playing.

Let's say you're playing Hymn of Restoration and people in the group have taken damage. Put on a lute to heal them faster. Once they reach full HP, you don't need the lute on, or even the song. Maybe put on weapons and start meleeing until someone takes damage.

3. Here are some fun ideas:
• Rogue: snare and fear the mob so the rogue can go to town. Twist in damage songs once you have the situation under control.
• Necromancer: play heal song (with lute equipped) so they can lich more; twist in damage songs on their target; pull for them so they can focus on casting and meditating; and probably twist mana song along with heal song during downtime
• Druid: give them mana and twist DoTs; fear the mob so the druid can med while "kiting."
• Monk, warrior, ranger, SK, paladin: pull singles for them (using lull on blue mobs only to avoid resists), haste them, slow the mob, perhaps use a damage shield song or other damage songs. Help them win! Or fear-kite like with a rogue. Or alternate this tactic with fear-kiting to take advantage of passive HP regen.
• Wizard: autofollow them with Selo's on while they quad; mana song them while they med. Also, pull four mobs for them so they can continue to med. If they have 1-2 mobs at very low HP, finish them off to conserve the wizard's mana. They also have greater security with your assistance. Quad kiting perfected.

[Mignart]

Have a 60 Bard and Red and currently 40 Bard on Green. Here are my thoughts as well:

Stats
As mentioned in the previous post - charisma is not too relevant nor is dexterity. The beauty of bards is that if you "Miss a note" (fizzle), you can immediately recast. I cant think of any situation in which the fizzle caused me to die or fail to do something critical in the 1/2 second timespan it took me to restart the song.

As a half elf - I went full stamina and remaining in STR. I do slightly regret not putting more into STR early on as wearing bronze basically left me with 0 room to carry loot, but as the gear progresses + weight reduction bags come into play - STR becomes less critical and I'm happy with my decision on STA.

Songs
It entirely depends on the group make up. I've been in groups where I was the only "healer" so I was forced to go lute / restoration and we managed very well to keep pulls constant.

Other situations where there is nobody who can slow, I will do snare song and whatever else the group needs (haste, dex, mana, heal etc).

If you're in a pet heavy group (necros, mages, ench etc.) I will often snare kite and let pets beat the mobs down and also throw in a fear depending on the dungeon / amount of open space avaialble without risking pulling adds.

If you have no enchanter and things get hairy, I can spend entire fights just chain mezzing 3-4 mobs to keep things under control while the group takes care of the mobs.

If you're solo'ing, you have two options - swarming or charm kiting. Both subjects have been written on immensely and with plenty of videos, so definitely look those up.

I think the beauty of Bards is that they are so incredibly versatile that you can fulfill any role and when played right, they add incredible value to any group. Fair warning though, once you get mana song, you might be asked to just afk and sit there and play mana song. Good time to watch Netflix.

Duos
Literally anything as mentioned in the two previous posts.

With any pet class you can face tank with slow, let pet go wild and just mitigate damage or fear / snare kite.

With a melee class, you can haste, fear, snare which is nice.

With a root / rot class (druid, shaman, necro), you can throw on any of your single target / AoE DoTs and just hang out and watch the mob drain away.

If you got any questions at all - feel free to msg me anytime on my bard on Green - Mignart.

[DMN]

I'll disagree a bit with some of the info here about cha and starting skill point investment. Bards have both cha-influenced lull and charm as well as, I believe, cha also effects the chance of landing a mez just like it does for enchanters. Those are three very big reasons why cha will give a big return on investment. If i were rolling a bard today (and I am going to roll on up on green soonish) I'd go human and dump all 25 points into cha.


edit:


If you lull blue mobs, your charisma won't matter. I.

I wanted to specifically address this comment giving how grotesquely wrong it is. Cha has a huge impact on reducing critical lull fails. When i die on my chanter and go from 220ish cha to 150ish, it hurts -- a lot, and lulling becomes wy more dangerous.

[Madbad]

Videri Bards gud, I done seen it

[Tiax]

I disagree with previous posters about the importance of charisma. My understanding is that charisma is used in the critical lull fail check, and therefore if you pull on your bard (which you probably should because they make excellent pullers) it's pretty important.

[Tiax]

Just read Videri's post that he linked, and I would disagree when he says that you don't need to worry about critical lull resists, but even so, I agree that charisma is not important enough to allocate starting points into it. Go with STA. Charisma is one of the most easily and cheaply boosted stats with items.

[DMN]

Just read Videri's post that he linked, and I would disagree when he says that you don't need to worry about critical lull resists, but even so, I agree that charisma is not important enough to allocate starting points into it. Go with STA. Charisma is one of the most easily and cheaply boosted stats with items.

I've never understood this logic, and i've hear it related to pals, clerics, and bards now?

What good charisma boosting gear exists that also has good ac/hp? You'd like to have both at the same time for the charm breaks/crit lull fails.

[Videri]

My point is that charisma does reduce the rate of critical lull resists, but you’ll have fewer critical lull resists if you have fewer lull resists in the first place (because you lull greens and blues).

I am aware of what charisma does, but I don’t prioritize it over stamina anymore.

I should have said “If you lull blue mobs, your charisma won’t matter as much as if you lull yellow mobs.” If you don’t get resisted much (level check), you won’t get many crit resists (charisma check).

[Videri]

I remembered another valuable post for OP and readers to consider.
https://www.project1999.com/forums/showthread.php?t=327383

[DMN]

I remembered another valuable post for OP and readers to consider.
https://www.project1999.com/forums/showthread.php?t=327383

Yes, and if you do take the time to read that to find out that 200 cha is 500% less likely to get a crit lull veruses 95 charisma and still don't think you should max charisma you should just quit EQ.

[Videri]

Yes, and if you do take the time to read that to find out that 200 cha is 500% less likely to get a crit lull veruses 95 charisma and still don't think you should max charisma you should just quit EQ.

Take it easy and remember we’re all trying to advise new players here, not “win” an internet argument. And I do understand the value of charisma; I just don’t prioritize it over other stats.

It’s true that 200 versus 95 charisma makes you 1/5 as likely to get a crit resist. Just remember that if lull is not resisted, there is no chance at all of a crit resist. Level is the determining factor in whether lull is resisted and the charisma check comes afterward. If you don’t lull yellow mobs, you’ll do fine.

Secondly, that’s a difference of 105 charisma. That’s a lot different from 25 cha points, 2 opallines, a 9-cha medallion, and a few other charisma items. 105 cha means we’re building the whole bard for charisma. I personally wouldn’t do this. Perhaps other bards would.

Third, lulling is only one of the things we spend time doing. If we gear our bard for charisma, we’re not gearing for hp, resists, and ac. I believe we make use of hp more frequently. Plus, once we hit 60, we’ll rarely do any lulling at all. Then one might wish one had put 25 points in stamina.

That’s why, even though I understand the value or charisma, I do not place it above the value of stamina or even strength. I have shared some posts and stated my own views; I think OP can judge for himself.

[Wallicker]

Hey all, I'm new-ish to the game and Green server and enjoying my time here after finally settling on a class. The utility, supportive toolset, and active playstyle of a bard really appeals to me; the only problem is, it seems like an easy class to play poorly. So I figured it's better to ask questions now, when I'm level 6, than not know something vital later.

#1: What stats should I prioritize when I can get gear? I've read that DEX affects procs and missing notes, and that CHA affects lulls/charms, which both seem pretty important. Anything else I should know?

#2: In a party, should I be meleeing, or using instruments? I've read some conflicting opinions over this, with some people deriding 'lazy bards' who only use instruments, and others saying that the boost from the instrument is a better help than a bard's wimpy melee DPS.

#3: What's a good duo partner for a Bard?


#1 MR/AC/HP/stamina
#2 after lvl 8 instruments until you get epic or very specific situations
#3 you can duo extremely well with any class, but as such a strong solo class you’ll do faster solo in most cases

[DMN]

Take it easy and remember we’re all trying to advise new players here, not “win” an internet argument. And I do understand the value of charisma; I just don’t prioritize it over other stats.

It’s true that 200 versus 95 charisma makes you 1/5 as likely to get a crit resist. Just remember that if lull is not resisted, there is no chance at all of a crit resist. Level is the determining factor in whether lull is resisted and the charisma check comes afterward. If you don’t lull yellow mobs, you’ll do fine.

Secondly, that’s a difference of 105 charisma. That’s a lot different from 25 cha points, 2 opallines, a 9-cha medallion, and a few other charisma items. 105 cha means we’re building the whole bard for charisma. I personally wouldn’t do this. Perhaps other bards would.

Third, lulling is only one of the things we spend time doing. If we gear our bard for charisma, we’re not gearing for hp, resists, and ac. I believe we make use of hp more frequently. Plus, once we hit 60, we’ll rarely do any lulling at all. Then one might wish one had put 25 points in stamina.

That’s why, even though I understand the value or charisma, I do not place it above the value of stamina or even strength. I have shared some posts and stated my own views; I think OP can judge for himself.

We can reasonably extrapolate that 25 cha to being about 125% less likely to gt a crit lull resist. That sounds pretty damn good to me.

And why aren't you lulling, charming or mezing at 60? do tell?


You've get your priorities twisted, like i said its much harder to get quality cha gear that has hp/ac/resists than it does to simply get gear with hp/ac/resists.

[Tiax]

I've never understood this logic, and i've hear it related to pals, clerics, and bards now?

What good charisma boosting gear exists that also has good ac/hp? You'd like to have both at the same time for the charm breaks/crit lull fails.

Well if you have the CHA gear on, then no crit resists, so you don't need the HP gear :)

And off the top of my head, you have gypsy amulet, guise and crude stein that will boost your CHA for 35ish that have no good HP equivalents for a newbie bard with no cash.

[Wallicker]

Having a cha set to split a camp wouldn’t be crazy, then just swap to your normal tanky set once it’s broken. personally as a bard that solos all the time, I never swap for cha gear and have no issues whatsoever and would much rather have the extra resists and Ac and hp.

Putting your 25 starting stats into anything but stamina is just plain dumb though.

Charms stick for full duration like 99% of the time regardless as long as it lands, mezzes aren’t affected by charisma at all.

[DMN]

Having a cha set to split a camp wouldn’t be crazy, then just swap to your normal tanky set once it’s broken. personally as a bard that solos all the time, I never swap for cha gear and have no issues whatsoever and would much rather have the extra resists and Ac and hp.

Putting your 25 starting stats into anything but stamina is just plain dumb though.

Charms stick for full duration like 99% of the time regardless as long as it lands, mezzes aren’t affected by charisma at all.

Ya that 70-80 hit points s really going to save your life. And I like how you say "as long as it lands". That's the biggest charisma impact is whether a charm/mez lands in the first place. That extra cha will come i cluth for doing CR, too.


Sure are Some terrible bards on p99.

[Wallicker]

Ya that 70-80 hit points s really going to save your life. And I like how you say "as long as it lands". That's the biggest charisma impact is whther a charm/mez lands in the first place.


Some terrible ass bards on p99.

Do you know how valuable an extra 80hp is lol? Do you realize in full velious BiS you won’t hit 255 sta without it? You are obviously misinformed - dumping starting stats in cha is plain dumb, it’s so easy to max cha if that’s what you want to do with gear not the case with stamina. Also end game a lot of great bard pieces have cha on them already. Finally you calling me a terrible ass bard is laughable friend.

[DMN]

Do you know how valuable an extra 80hp is lol? Do you realize in full velious BiS you won’t hit 255 sta without it? You are obviously misinformed - dumping starting stats in cha is plain dumb, it’s so easy to max cha if that’s what you want to do with gear not the case with stamina. Also end game a lot of great bard pieces have cha on them already. Finally you calling me a terrible ass bard is laughable friend.

Who gives a shit about 255 sta? It's not easy to max charisma and be trying to max ac/hp/resists too. Don't care about your opinion of yourself as a bard, you certainly have a very low IQ.

[Videri]

We can reasonably extrapolate that 25 cha to being about 125% less likely to gt a crit lull resist. That sounds pretty damn good to me.

That would be about 25% less likely, not about 125% less likely. But yes, the more charisma the better.

And why aren't you lulling, charming or mezing at 60? do tell?

• I’m lulling, but only blue mobs. It lands most of the time. We can CC if it doesn’t.
• Charm song lasts 18 seconds. Charisma matters so little for that particular purpose.
• Mez will land almost every time on blue mobs, and last the full 18-second duration.

[Videri]

Guys, let’s return to the OP and other future readers.
One thing to consider is, what does one do as a bard and what percentage of one’s time will one be doing it? Individual players’ answers may differ.
• Group CC
• Group combat support, such as heal song, mana song, haste, slow, resists, rune song
• Tanking (I know, I know, bards aren’t tanks, but sometimes you get hit)
• Pulling, with or without lull
• AE kiting
• Other forms of kiting, such as fear-kiting with a rogue buddy
• Providing resist songs on a raid
• Running a lot (and avoiding being encumbered)
• More...?

When deciding how to allocate our starting points, we should consider the relative benefits our statistics provide to each of these activities.

[DMN]

That would be about 25% less likely, not about 125% less likely. But yes, the more charisma the better.


You cant even do second grade level math.

Holy cow.

[Videri]

You cant even do second grade level math.

Holy cow.

“95 Cha, 200 tests -- 71 critical resists (ie 35.5% crit rate)
200 Cha, 200 tests -- 15 critical resists (ie 7% crit rate)”

Looks like we were both wrong. It’s not 25%, 125%, or 500%.
7/35.5 = 19.7% as many crit resists
28.5/35.5 = 80.3% fewer crit resists

Is this right?

[Wallicker]

DMN who are your bards?

[GuiltyLight]

"Less likely" is kind of a wonky way to phrase statistics.

If you had 10 incidents out of x cycles, and after a change you had 5 incidents out of x cycles, you'd be better off saying something like "50% as many incidents", not "100% less likely to have an incident". That's just a weird way of putting it, especially when you start dealing with actual numbers and not nice, round examples. It's not wrong, it's just... weird.

It's like people who got tripped up by thac0 in AD&D. AC was a modifier, not the target number. But 99% of DMs tried to explain it as if AC was your TN. It's not technically wrong, because you can do it like that, but it just makes it less intuitive.

[Videri]

One important piece of info about lull mechanics: when you lull an NPC, the game first rolls to see whether it was resisted, based on level (not charisma). If you fail that check and it resists; then, it does a charisma check to see if the resist was critical. If you succeed on the initial resist check based on level, then charisma doesn’t come into play.

That’s why I said if you lull only blue mobs, charisma matters less than if you try to lull yellows. I’d avoid lulling yellow+, even if you put a lot of points in charisma.

So charisma is helpful for reducing critical lull resists. It’s just a matter of comparing the relative values of cha and sta, which different players may value differently.

As for me, I may make a bard on Green, and I think some of my points will go in charisma, but probably more in stamina, and possibly some in strength just for the encumbrance factor.

[DMN]

Actually, you've got it backwards. The crit fail chance precedes the lull chance. So you will get as many crit lulls per lull casts regardless if yellow or green.

[Benanov]

you certainly have a very low IQ.

Erudites can't be bards, so...that kind of goes without saying.

[Tecmos Deception]

Hail! Would you weigh in in this thread on the question of how lull resists work? Is the resist check done first, based on level alone; followed by the critical resist check, based on charisma? Or backwards?

https://www.project1999.com/forums/showthread.php?t=345420&page=3

I figured you'd be the enc to ask.

I never did any testing really. I just assumed that first you have a chance for success or a chance for resist, and that if there is a resist you then have a chance for a "critical resist" that aggros, with charisma drastically reducing the chance of a critical resist.

A crit resist fail was such a huge pain most of the time that I wanted to lull anything that I just stacked cha to 250+ and was happy to do so, never really worrying about whether -20 cha for some extra AC or hp was a good trade because of how dangerous a crit lull fail is when you're monkeying around with rooms full of stuff that casts or harmtouches or whatever.


Actually, you've got it backwards. The crit fail chance precedes the lull chance. So you will get as many crit lulls per lull casts regardless if yellow or green.

If this is true, it'd be easy to verify. If the crit fail chance happens initially, then a 60 lulling a level 1 would basically only ever see a resist if it was also a critical resist. But a 60 lulling a 50 would see a lot of resists with relatively few (depending on charisma) of them being crit resists.

[chey]

Thanks everyone for giving their 2c, I appreciate the input and debate. Looking forward to playing alongside some of you on Green!

[Issar]

Thanks everyone for giving their 2c, I appreciate the input and debate. Looking forward to playing alongside some of you on Green!

Welcome Chey!

As you will find, there are lots of interesting debates on the forums and you can typically discern valuable information from them. For the most part, people mean well, but it's the internet and we all get salty sometimes. So don't sweat the debates.

On the original topic, I have a 52 bard on blue who is clearly not a raiding toon. However, this is my favorite class and I tinkered with it pretty extensively through the various play styles. I did do some swarm kiting, but tried to reserve that for hell levels. Most of the time was grouping, charming, and fear kiting/charming.

Here's my take. Bards are unquestionably the most versitile class in the game. As a result you can fill several roles at any given time. Bards are one of the few classes that truly benefits from multiple stats that are available for bonus (INT, WIS, STR, & etc...). And there are no other classes that have as meaningful of a benefit from as many stats. That's why you will always see Bard stats debated more hotly than any other class.

- STR, great for starting out as you can hold more items and makes up for some weight of that beautiful bronze armor. STR gear is easy to aqcuire late in game and so do weight reduction bags, so the value falls off in late game.

- INT, gives you a bigger mana pool, and while I've OOM'd quite a bit from charming sessions, the return isn't worth dedicating points into.

- STA, the returns are null to start, but becomes exponentially better at late levels. If you put 20 points into it, your return at level 60 is 80HP. Not bad, but you don't benefit from it until late. The most difficult to cap through gear.

- CHA, when stacked does help reduce crit misses on lulls which can save your hide in pulling situations. My experience with it is a minimal, but noticable difference. Does not have an effect on charm durations and I stopped using it entirely when not pulling. CHA is super easy and cheap to supplement through gear alone.

- DEX, my favorite. I twist like a madman and I can't stand a missed note. Two missed notes in a row do something nasty to my mental state, and I'm a pretty relaxed guy. DEX noticibly reduces fizzle rates for bards. When I finally pushed mine up over 200, my songs were rolling off like butter. I noticed the difference everytime I upgraded DEX in chunks of 15 to 20points, so it is a safe and solid investment for starting points. That being said, DEX is fairly easy to raise with gear.

This character was a low-moderate twink and I tried various gearing strats for various situations. What I found to be most important in almost all situations was not missing notes. If you miss a note in a swarm kite, you just keep running and try again, which is totally fine. However, when you're charming, mezzing or trying to fear a mob that is capable of splitting your HP in half with one round of damage, two fizzles in a row will make for a bad time.

Group situations was a little different. Suprisingly, I found myself as the main tank quite often. In these situations, I would pile on the HP/AC gear for noticable benefit. However, I would notice the increase in missed notes. I would also pull and cc quite a bit, and tried using CHA gear for this (which is easy to push over 200 w/ gear). I can't say that I really noticed a huge benefit, but again noticed the missing DEX because of the increase in missed notes.

IMHO, if your goal is to raid full time, STA is a solid choice. If you're planning on grouping most of the time, STA or DEX are also solid. The neckbeards will freak, but STR isn't a bad way to go for your first toon on the server either. It allows you to pack your bags with loot and wear heavier gear before you reach the weight penalty. For non-min/max non-raiders, I don't believe the returns on STA for Bards has a enough value to focus on it (not true for raiding min/max though).

Personally, I've been strongly considering rolling a Bard on Green. After playing a Bard for the first time on Blue, I just have a hard time finding another class as fulfilling. If I do roll one, I will probably dump all my points into DEX and forego the heavy Bronze armor for banded. If I had the time, flexibility, and desire to raid, I'd go with STA.

Feel free to PM me if you have any questions on barding. I don't know it all, but I have tinkered a lot with the class and have a solid understanding about it.

May you slay the ladies clothing with your boastful bellows within the tavern halls, my friend!