channeling skill is broken

[Gwoben]

channeling skill on P99 is not working as it did before PoP on live servers. You should not be able to reliably channel through multiple mob hits. EQ developers acknowledged channeling broke with introduction of AAs and attempted to fix it in 2006, but nerf was reverted due to backslash: http://everquest.allakhazam.com/history/patches-2006-1.html

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- We've reverted the fix to channeling made with the last patch. After much discussion, our general feeling is that channeling has been broken for long enough that players have come to rely on that broken behavior as expected gameplay. For the time being, we've reverted back to that broken behavior and will address spell interrupts in general at a later date.
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According to Rashere channeling was supposed to cap at 90% chance per hit with AAs (3 ranks), which means it should be lower on P99. He did not say how much each rank of AA adds: https://web.archive.org/web/20061207150714/http://eqforums.station.sony.com/eq/board/message?board.id=Veterans&message.id=239994

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I posted this in another thread, but will mention it here as well.

We fixed a problem with channeling that was causing it to basically be backwards. If you had no AAs, you channeled through damage 100% of the time and as you got AAs, that decreased. It now scales like it should, and like how it worked in the past, where you start out low, channel more often as you gain channeling skill, and your AAs increase that even further. You're going to see more interrupts than before simply because you are no longer channeling 100% of the time (or close to that if you had AAs that were decreasing it). Your chance to channel is still really high at high levels (it caps at 90%), though, assuming you have maxed channeling skill.

One caveat to this...channeling doesn't apply to being bashed, stunned, or moving. Even with a high channeling skill, if you get bashed, stunned, or moved too far, you're going to lose your spell. That hasn't changed.

Rashere
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Lower level spells are supposed to be easier to channel through hits (still can't be higher than cap). I am not sure if there is mechanics like this on P99 since I seem to channel through 100% of hits regardless of spell level and any bonus would be lost:
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Level of the NPC plays no factor in the channeling equations themselves. Higher level NPCs will generally hit you more often, though.

The level of the spell, though, does matter. Casting lower level spells than yourself gives you a bonus to channeling chance.

Rashere
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[Dolalin]

One of those little things that seem small but have a big impact on the game and over-advantage casters. Nice one.

I'll see if I can help you out once I'm done digging on ZEM stuff.

[cd288]

I really hope this happens since this was brought up the the nerf enchanters thread. I’d lol if all the other casters demanding enchanters be nerfed ended up having their own classes seriously nerfed in this manner as a result lol

[Brocode]

So your Saying all those Stunned but still regained concentration and gated or CHed should not be able to do that? thank god a nerf that actually helps players

[Dolalin]

No, this concerns PC chances to channel spells.

[Asteria]

Awesome find and thing to bring up. :) I have DEFINITELY noticed way higher successful casts through being attacked AKA FAR fewer spell interruptions here on my caster than I remember on live (especially at low levels, teens, 20s, & 30s.)

[cd288]

Please please please implement this change staff. I really want to see the looks of horror on all the peoples' faces from the nerf Enchanters thread when they realize that their complaints caused people to realize that the biggest issue with why Charm killing is significantly easier on P99 was that channeling was broken and all their casters are now nerfed too.

[Tecmos Deception]

Please please please implement this change staff. I really want to see the looks of horror on all the peoples' faces from the nerf Enchanters thread when they realize that their complaints caused people to realize that the biggest issue with why Charm killing is significantly easier on P99 was that channeling was broken and all their casters are now nerfed too.

Shit. Even FSI won't seem so great when plain old hits start interrupting spells more than once in a blue moon!

Bring on teh classic!

[Dolalin]

It looks like TAKP recently did some work on this. I see a post from Torven about it back in July:


PC spell interrupt logic was rewritten to match a decompile taken from the client. That doesn't mean errors aren't possible, but it does mean that it's likely correct.

Keep in mind that it does these two things:

Every hit on you while casting a spell each has its own interrupt roll, so if you're casting a spell that's easy to interrupt, it's not likely to succeed if you're hit a lot.

Spells that are six or more levels under your current level get a significant channeling bonus. This bonus grows the older the spell is.


https://www.takproject.net/forums/index.php?threads/channeling-focus-aa.12938/#post-80157

With any luck it's on Haynar's list of things to bring over here, if it isn't already?

(Then again, per the parent post, it might implement the broken channeling behaviour...)

[azxten]

Bump. Please fix to balance OP classes like Enchanter and bring back the classic experience for all casters.

[mcoy]

The devs already have my logs, but here's a small excerpt from a level 24 cleric:

[Sun Nov 11 23:36:22 2001] You begin casting Greater Healing.
[Sun Nov 11 23:36:23 2001] Charbone skeleton hits Ginen for 3 points of damage.
[Sun Nov 11 23:36:24 2001] A Sarnak recruit hits YOU for 2 points of damage.
[Sun Nov 11 23:36:25 2001] Your spell is interrupted.

[Sun Nov 11 23:37:30 2001] You begin casting Divine Aura.
[Sun Nov 11 23:37:30 2001] Ginen slashes a Sarnak recruit for 9 points of damage.
[Sun Nov 11 23:37:31 2001] Charbone skeleton hits Kuguk for 3 points of damage.
[Sun Nov 11 23:37:31 2001] A Sarnak recruit hits YOU for 26 points of damage.
[Sun Nov 11 23:37:31 2001] A Sarnak recruit hits YOU for 48 points of damage.
[Sun Nov 11 23:37:31 2001] A Sarnak recruit hits YOU for 2 points of damage.
[Sun Nov 11 23:37:31 2001] Your spell is interrupted.
[Sun Nov 11 23:37:32 2001] You begin casting Divine Aura.
[Sun Nov 11 23:37:32 2001] Charbone skeleton tries to bash YOU, but misses!
[Sun Nov 11 23:37:33 2001] Your spell is interrupted.
[Sun Nov 11 23:37:33 2001] A Sarnak recruit bashes YOU for 3 points of damage.

[Wed Nov 14 19:47:30 2001] A sarnak recruit hits YOU for 48 points of damage.
[Wed Nov 14 19:47:31 2001] You begin casting Root.
[Wed Nov 14 19:47:31 2001] Dojokata strikes a sarnak recruit for 6 points of damage.
[Wed Nov 14 19:47:31 2001] A sarnak recruit tries to bash YOU, but misses!
[Wed Nov 14 19:47:32 2001] Ubeta pierces a sarnak recruit for 1 point of damage.
[Wed Nov 14 19:47:33 2001] Ubeta pierces a sarnak recruit for 16 points of damage.
[Wed Nov 14 19:47:33 2001] Your spell is interrupted.
[Wed Nov 14 19:47:33 2001] A sarnak recruit tries to hit YOU, but misses!
[Wed Nov 14 19:47:33 2001] Dojokata punches a sarnak recruit for 10 points of damage.
[Wed Nov 14 19:47:34 2001] You begin casting Root.

[Wed Nov 14 19:48:45 2001] You begin casting Greater Healing.
[Wed Nov 14 19:48:45 2001] You tell your party, 'Casting Greater Healing on Dojokata'
[Wed Nov 14 19:48:46 2001] Aillie crushes a sarnak recruit for 8 points of damage.
[Wed Nov 14 19:48:46 2001] Your Root spell has worn off.
[Wed Nov 14 19:48:46 2001] A sarnak recruit hits Ubeta for 2 points of damage.
[Wed Nov 14 19:48:47 2001] Ubeta pierces a sarnak recruit for 13 points of damage.
[Wed Nov 14 19:48:47 2001] Dojokata tells the group, 'mend failed'
[Wed Nov 14 19:48:47 2001] A sarnak recruit has been struck by lightning.
[Wed Nov 14 19:48:48 2001] A sarnak recruit hits YOU for 10 points of damage.
[Wed Nov 14 19:48:48 2001] A sarnak recruit tries to hit YOU, but misses!
[Wed Nov 14 19:48:49 2001] Your spell is interrupted.


-Mcoy

[azxten]

https://github.com/EQEmu/Server/blob/master/zone/spells.cpp

Delete "channelchance -= attacked_count " lines.

Before line 1131 add "for attack_count random 1-100, if > channel value set attack_interrupt true" then check this attack_interrupt value in line 1131.

This will remove the modification of attack count altering chance to channel as a single roll and convert it to a per attack roll to fail casting as it should be.

In logic of line 1116, "if(d_x < 5 && d_y < 5)", instead of reducing channel chance by the square of distance moved which is affected by channeling skill instead make it a chance to fail that isn't modifying channeling skill chance.

Line 1123 "channelchance -= distancemod" instead changes to a random roll 1-100, if roll is < distancemod you fail. Move 1 unit, you get a distance mod of 25, roll >25 you cast, roll <25 you don't cast.

This introduces a separate casting chance for failure due to distance moved which is unrelated to skill.

These changes should bring channeling closer to classic behavior. A chance to be interrupted for each melee hit you receive that is modified based on your channeling skill. A separate chance to be interrupted based on distance moved that is not modified by skill. Potentially up to 16 rolls per cast, 15 hit rolls modified by channeling skill, and 1 distance move roll.

[Pretzelle]

It's far more accurate on TAKP. They could check with Haynar or Torven over there for how they have it set up.

[azxten]

Bump

[Brocode]

It's far more accurate on TAKP. They could check with Haynar or Torven over there for how they have it set up.

Go play TAKP then ;)

On Serious note, your saying the actual channeling is only accounted once aka one roll instead of each hit? Because when im casting when it really matters i get some sad interrupts and you want to make it even worse? Can we add the same to NPCs? WTB Balance if you demand that to PCs

[azxten]

Go play TAKP then ;)

On Serious note, your saying the actual channeling is only accounted once aka one roll instead of each hit? Because when im casting when it really matters i get some sad interrupts and you want to make it even worse? Can we add the same to NPCs? WTB Balance if you demand that to PCs


I want to make it classic and in classic channeling was not very successful particularly at low levels. EQ is meant to be a social grouping game.

[Mayge]

Was i dreaming all those years when SKs could easily pull rooms of 4-5 mobs effortlessly with FD as long as it didn't fail?

[Dolalin]

So Torven sent me the logic they use on TAKP which I've given to the P99 devs. They took their code from a client decompile so it's as close as I imagine you could get to accuracy. A Trilogy client decompile would be interesting to see, perhaps the logic is in there too (TAKP's client code has a few extra lines to handle channeling AAs, they modify the roll a bit). But looking at it I doubt it changed much.

Based on what I see, channeling is indeed overpowered on p99.

Low level characters should start out with only a 10% chance to channel through hits, which climbs a hill from a minimum roll of 39 to a maximum roll of 370, out of 391, as you progress your levels and channeling skill. It caps at 95% chance to channel.

Additionally you get a level bonus to channel if the spell you are casting is more than 5 levels lower than you are.

Chance to channel is effectively capped at 10% until level 6. Then it scales slowly upwards as a function of level and channeling skill.

My level 3 iksar shaman was about 50/50 to channel through hits on p99 which always felt off. Her chance should be 10%.

A level 10 caster with max channeling and casting a level 8 spell should have a 16% chance to channel.

A level 20 caster with max channeling and casting a 20th spell should have a 31% chance to channel. But casting level 4 gate, they would have a 44% chance to channel due to level bonus.

A level 55 SK with 210 channeling, casting Feign Death (level 30 spell for them) would have a 73% chance to channel (due also to level bonus).

That should give you an idea of how it scales.

[Izmael]

How can a client decompile provide the logic that is handled server-side?

[Dolalin]

How can a client decompile provide the logic that is handled server-side?

I was confused about this too at first, but it looks like the channeling code itself was included in the OSX client (TAKP emulates the Mac Al'Kabor server), and they decompiled that.

[Izmael]

That's very interesting, did other stuff get include there by any luck? Got a link to a topic or something?

[Dolalin]

Torven PM'd me the code so I don't want to post it publicly. I do not know what other sorts of things might have been included in the OSX client. But I do know the channeling logic was one.

[Izmael]

Would have to get the same info from the in-era clients, if possible.

If the client this has been retrieved from is from Luclin+ era... well, stuff there was very different.
Mobs in those eras were hitting like trucks, sometimes quadding / rampaging / flurrying without being raid mobs, they were basically buffed up. Their melee, ATK and AC sometimes were buffed up beyond reason as well, starting with Luclin...

However, the armor/items/spells available to the players also became very different compared to the Velious- eras - insane stats, focus effects, AAs...

Don't think you can just pick the channeling code from a Luclin+ era and stick it to a Velious- era without all those other factors taken into account.

But it's very interesting regardless as it allows us to get some insight on how stuff is/was done server-side.

[azxten]

So Torven sent me the logic they use on TAKP which I've given to the P99 devs. They took their code from a client decompile so it's as close as I imagine you could get to accuracy. A Trilogy client decompile would be interesting to see, perhaps the logic is in there too (TAKP's client code has a few extra lines to handle channeling AAs, they modify the roll a bit). But looking at it I doubt it changed much.

Based on what I see, channeling is indeed overpowered on p99.

Low level characters should start out with only a 10% chance to channel through hits, which climbs a hill from a minimum roll of 39 to a maximum roll of 370, out of 391, as you progress your levels and channeling skill. It caps at 95% chance to channel.

Additionally you get a level bonus to channel if the spell you are casting is more than 5 levels lower than you are.

Chance to channel is effectively capped at 10% until level 6. Then it scales slowly upwards as a function of level and channeling skill.

My level 3 iksar shaman was about 50/50 to channel through hits on p99 which always felt off. Her chance should be 10%.

A level 10 caster with max channeling and casting a level 8 spell should have a 16% chance to channel.

A level 20 caster with max channeling and casting a 20th spell should have a 31% chance to channel. But casting level 4 gate, they would have a 44% chance to channel due to level bonus.

A level 55 SK with 210 channeling, casting Feign Death (level 30 spell for them) would have a 73% chance to channel (due also to level bonus).

That should give you an idea of how it scales.

Nice work, thanks for looking into this. Fits with what I expected. Channeling on P99 is probably fine at higher levels like 20-30+ but it's way too successful for level 1-30.

[azxten]

Bump.

[Quest815]

just scrap the server and merge it with blue already :p

https://imgur.com/a/I4zKNYa

[Quest815]

https://imgur.com/a/YP9SLOG

[Quest815]

been on for 2hrs this morning, think i killed 1 mob.

same exact thing happens every day when i wake up i need to wait until early morning to be able to kill a mob or hit it with any sort of spell or my dagger.

[Kirdan]

Quest815, you seem confused. This thread is claiming that channeling skill is *too good* and needs to be nerfed to be more classic. Based on your other threads, I honestly think you are just a troll, but if you are not then you probably have some skilling up to do because you are posting random screenshots of multiple fizzles and getting interrupted by a stun. You don't seem to understand the game you are playing very well.

[Quest815]

Quest815, you seem confused. This thread is claiming that channeling skill is *too good* and needs to be nerfed to be more classic. Based on your other threads, I honestly think you are just a troll, but if you are not then you probably have some skilling up to do because you are posting random screenshots of multiple fizzles and getting interrupted by a stun. You don't seem to understand the game you are playing very well.

there is a post stating that it is OP at higher levels(because of a bug) and gimped at lower levels. I'll try to scrounge it up. But until then. You dont have to take my word for it.

There are actual trolls here, with thousands of posts who repeat the same thing over and over. Go see if you can find them !!

[azxten]

Bump. I was feeling like playing EQ again then I remembered channeling is still broken and allowing bad players to pretend they are good.

[cd288]

Bump. I was feeling like playing EQ again then I remembered channeling is still broken and allowing bad players to pretend they are good.

This isn’t RnF dude. Take posts like that elsewhere

[azxten]

This isn’t RnF dude. Take posts like that elsewhere

It's just a simple fact, not a rant or a flame. Fixing channeling alone would revive P99 for a lot of players myself included. Most players don't even know just how broken this core skill is. After amassing millions of plat, legacy items, raid kills, and max level characters I had to step back and consider why it's so easy on P99 compared to Live and it has nothing to do with game knowledge or anything else. It's just channeling and probably higher than classic ZEM with the exception of raiding which has many other problems.

Some people don't seem to care P99 is fundamentally different from classic in these ways but I do so I'll continue to promote it being fixed. It would be nice to see a dev actually acknowledge this obvious issue and clarify things. Is it a client issue that can't be fixed due to legal reasons? I don't know I think you're the only one who has suggested that.

I'd be happy to investigate myself if I didn't think I was wasting my time finding an answer the staff could already clarify or that if I did find a solution it would be ignored.

[Iumuno]

It's just a simple fact, not a rant or a flame. Fixing channeling alone would revive P99 for a lot of players myself included. Most players don't even know just how broken this core skill is. After amassing millions of plat, legacy items, raid kills, and max level characters I had to step back and consider why it's so easy on P99 compared to Live and it has nothing to do with game knowledge or anything else. It's just channeling and probably higher than classic ZEM with the exception of raiding which has many other problems.

Some people don't seem to care P99 is fundamentally different from classic in these ways but I do so I'll continue to promote it being fixed. It would be nice to see a dev actually acknowledge this obvious issue and clarify things. Is it a client issue that can't be fixed due to legal reasons? I don't know I think you're the only one who has suggested that.

I'd be happy to investigate myself if I didn't think I was wasting my time finding an answer the staff could already clarify or that if I did find a solution it would be ignored.

I agree with the conclusions on channeling in this thread, but imo the lower resist rates and lull spells actually working are much bigger factors in making p99 easier.

[azxten]

I agree with the conclusions on channeling in this thread, but imo the lower resist rates and lull spells actually working are much bigger factors in making p99 easier.

I agree this is an issue as well. It goes hand in hand. Awhile back I was recalling how upset I'd get playing live EQ when root would resist, break, etc and then you couldn't channel through like 5 casts from being hit a single time resulting in your death level 10-30 or so. Never seems to happen on P99 and I could see it being both resists and channeling related.

I miss that difficulty because it made the reward greater, and more importantly promoted socialization and grouping. P99 current meta is so stupidly heavy on soloing and alts it's really just become toxic to enjoyment. This is ignoring the raid scene just talking purely about the leveling and grouping experience on the way to 50+.

I don't know why staff refuses to comment on this issue.

[Lich]

I agree this is an issue as well. It goes hand in hand. Awhile back I was recalling how upset I'd get playing live EQ when root would resist, break, etc and then you couldn't channel through like 5 casts from being hit a single time resulting in your death level 10-30 or so. Never seems to happen on P99 and I could see it being both resists and channeling related.

I miss that difficulty because it made the reward greater, and more importantly promoted socialization and grouping. P99 current meta is so stupidly heavy on soloing and alts it's really just become toxic to enjoyment. This is ignoring the raid scene just talking purely about the leveling and grouping experience on the way to 50+.

I don't know why staff refuses to comment on this issue.

The resists are higher on p99 than I remember. See how easy that was?

[Worry]

Interesting thread, would make the three most powerful classes quite a bit more difficult (Chanter, Necro, Shaman). As someone who plays two of those three classes, I'm all for it!

It's a fact that P99 is considerably easier than Pre-POP Live was.

[kaev]

It's a fact that P99 is considerably easier than Pre-POP Live was.

Except for the bit where on live if you were backed into a corner only a bash landing would actually interrupt a cast.

Oh, and not related to channelling... Except for the bit where on live when you went LD, including via /q, you fought like an NPC (i.e. a paladin for example would hit far harder and a bit more often than when under your control.)

I avoided quite a few deaths soloing in LGuk on my live paladin during Velious era with those two tricks.

It's only the most OP classes that seem to benefit from the differences to live mechanics, afaict.

[Croco]

Interesting thread, would make the three most powerful classes quite a bit more difficult (Chanter, Necro, Shaman). As someone who plays two of those three classes, I'm all for it!

It's a fact that P99 is considerably easier than Pre-POP Live was.

You misspelled *harder*. Live was quite a bit easier than p99 in a myriad of ways. Including but not limited to certain bosses are much harder than their live counterparts were in era.

[azxten]

You misspelled *harder*. Live was quite a bit easier than p99 in a myriad of ways. Including but not limited to certain bosses are much harder than their live counterparts were in era.

I see you said not limited to but raiding is a separate thing with a ton of problems in all kinds of ways and I agree with that aspect. However, the normal leveling treadmill on P99 is much easier than live ever was.

It's only the most OP classes that seem to benefit from the differences to live mechanics, afaict.

This was part of what led me to discovering how broken channeling was. I was actually specifically investigating why Enchanter is so ridiculous overpowered on P99 especially in pre-Kunark era.

There have been many nerfs on P99 to "overpowered" classes which took away classic functionality but for whatever reason Enchanter is being allowed to trivialize content at all levels. It's an inconsistent policy to nerf Bard AE, pet weapon delay, Necro lifetap, AE groups, etc but leave Enchanter charm pets. We've already proven, for example, that classic pets across all classes were ridiculous bugged in classic era and would attack group members, fall through the world training the group, etc but Enchanter has been allowed to become the central driving force that carries everyone from level 1-60 with ease using charmed pets including in raids.

Even though there are several non-classic aspects to Enchanter which have been proven and outlined I've just decided to abandon those in favor of trying to get channeling fixed because that is a big part of what allows Enchanter to be overpowered and it impacts all other casters as well.

I don't know why the staff has no interest in commenting on this channeling issue. It's a core game function that is provably non-classic but can't get a word out of them on it.

[Pringles]

I don't know why the staff has no interest in commenting on this channeling issue. It's a core game function that is provably non-classic but can't get a word out of them on it.

It's really simple from my point of view, since there are only a couple of staff members that have the know-how to make this change and they aren't interested in putting the work in. Due to real-life commitments in one case and disdain/disinterest in the other, if I had to speculate.