Level 60 warrior piercing vs. Slashing

[remen]

Hi, I am just wondering if anyone has data / info on how much the lower skill cap on piercing weapons (240) at level 60 effects DPS / threat production. I currently use 2 piercing weapons that have good ratios and agro procs, but I am wondering if it's worth looking for slashing or 1hb weapons if the 250 skill cap makes a big difference. Thanks

[bradsamma]

It makes about a 5% dps difference at 60. It makes zero difference on aggro as skill cap does not affect aggro at all.

I'm assuming one of your piecers is an infestation? If you're tanking and not in a raid guild, this and a frostbringer are going to be your best aggro combo.

Substitute Willsapper for the infestation in your primary for better aggro and more dps if that is your other piercer.

Frostbringer is more aggro and more dps than an infestation in the offhand.

On a side note, short of ToV/VP weapons and without the epic, the Frostreaver will be your best aggro. (If you're in either Riot or AG, the only two guilds on the server currently capable of killing dain)

[bradsamma]

As an additional explanation, the non-damage component of procs are now limited to 400 aggro per proc with the exception of the epic.

The white damage aggro is damage bonus+weapon damage.

The 9/18 infestation does 9+11 aggro per swing in the primary. In the offhand, it does 9 aggro per swing since the offhand does not get a damage bonus.

Now, with the 2hnder revamp, 2hnders get a massive increase in damage bonus which makes their swing aggro large enough to overcome having only 2 procs per minute vs the 3 procs per minute that you would get with duel wield.

Mind you, if you are using a 20% haste belt and getting VoG, then you're going to do more aggro with the infestation/frostbringer. Also, if you have torpor on you, (which slows you) duel wielding will give you much more aggro.

You'll need something like a CoF or seahorse hide belt (or similar 40% haste) to make the 2hder work for you as an aggro weapon.

[remen]

This is perfect, the exact kind of information I was looking for, thanks so much!

It makes about a 5% dps difference at 60. It makes zero difference on aggro as skill cap does not affect aggro at all.

I'm assuming one of your piecers is an infestation? If you're tanking and not in a raid guild, this and a frostbringer are going to be your best aggro combo.

Substitute Willsapper for the infestation in your primary for better aggro and more dps if that is your other piercer.

Frostbringer is more aggro and more dps than an infestation in the offhand.

On a side note, short of ToV/VP weapons and without the epic, the Frostreaver will be your best aggro. (If you're in either Riot or AG, the only two guilds on the server currently capable of killing dain)

Actually, my main hand piercer is already the Willsapper, and in my offhand I have Nevederia' Horn - 10/15 with proc of suffocate (65dd + DoT + str / agi debuff component). The slightly lower skill cap effects agro in the sense of having less white damage to create agro, but with it only being 5% less with piercing weapons it sounds like it doesn't pay to spend big DKP on something like silver whip of rage / kreizenn's flame / jaelens katana / braid of golden hair for more raw dps from a better ratio and high skill cap, but then having less agro on the procs. As an aside, how do you think some of the VP weapons stack up against the ones I have?

As an additional explanation, the non-damage component of procs are now limited to 400 aggro per proc with the exception of the epic.

The white damage aggro is damage bonus+weapon damage.

The 9/18 infestation does 9+11 aggro per swing in the primary. In the offhand, it does 9 aggro per swing since the offhand does not get a damage bonus.

Now, with the 2hnder revamp, 2hnders get a massive increase in damage bonus which makes their swing aggro large enough to overcome having only 2 procs per minute vs the 3 procs per minute that you would get with duel wield.

Mind you, if you are using a 20% haste belt and getting VoG, then you're going to do more aggro with the infestation/frostbringer. Also, if you have torpor on you, (which slows you) duel wielding will give you much more aggro.

You'll need something like a CoF or seahorse hide belt (or similar 40% haste) to make the 2hder work for you as an aggro weapon.

I do have a 41% haste item, so do you think Frostreaver or Gaudralek are better agro items than my current set up? Lastly, do you think the epic is worth going for as a significant upgrade to what I have now? I still have quite a bit incomplete and would have to spend big dkp or plat on green scales on top of the effort to acquire the rest of the pieces. Thanks again for all the help and info in your responses!

[Dolalin]

The slightly lower skill cap effects agro in the sense of having less white damage to create agro,

Damage doesn't create aggro, *melee swings* create aggro. If you miss every single swing you create exactly the same aggro as if you connect every swing.

Also, after the 400pt melee proc hate cap patch last year, Willsapper is worse than Infestation for hate over time in main hand, assuming capped Dex.

[Troxx]

Damage doesn't create aggro, *melee swings* create aggro. If you miss every single swing you create exactly the same aggro as if you connect every swing.

Also, after the 400pt melee proc hate cap patch last year, Willsapper is worse than Infestation for hate over time in main hand, assuming capped Dex.

First part was right.

Second part was wrong. Willsapper puts out more threat than infestation. 13/20 generates more threat than 9/18 and their procs are now similar.

[Troxx]

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1WjyFoAuqCrhWKdMKTSRAWsF8SlBQHhOS0EZu-kendZM/edit#gid=0

This is about as accurate as it gets.

[remen]

Damage doesn't create aggro, *melee swings* create aggro. If you miss every single swing you create exactly the same aggro as if you connect every swing.

Also, after the 400pt melee proc hate cap patch last year, Willsapper is worse than Infestation for hate over time in main hand, assuming capped Dex.

Really? So does that make https://wiki.project1999.com/Feverblade_-_Bane_of_the_Shissar or infestation BiS for main hand agro? Since those have the lowest delay of any 400 agro procs I can find. It seems that all of the main tanks I see use either Trident, willsapper, or epic main hand. And I've never seen any using Frostreaver or 2h epic or anything like that while tanking raid mobs

[remen]

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1WjyFoAuqCrhWKdMKTSRAWsF8SlBQHhOS0EZu-kendZM/edit#gid=0

This is about as accurate as it gets.

Oh wow, tyvm for that link, that's perfect! Awesome someone took the time to put that together. My main hand options based on what I have are: Feverblade, Willsapper, and Infestation - so the feverblade + nev's horn is actually my best agro combo then? Since I don't have epic it looks like the nev horn is pretty much BiS offhand, especially with 20ac (not gonna ever get SoD obviously lol). I wonder if it's still worth using willsapper main hand though since the difference in't that big, and the willsapper has some AC and HP. Also do you guys think its worth going for a trident? Less agro but slightly more HP but obviously has the slow that can land on a couple unslowable mobs

It also seems like epic is definitely worth going for, I wasn't planning on it because of the ratios, but I didn't know it had such high agro proc over the others. Especially with the 50hp and resists it looks like it is the BiS offhand weap.

[Troxx]

Yeah top setups on the list:

1. SoD/SoD (or combinations including 1)
2. Feverblade + red epic
3. Epic 2h
4. Frostreaver tied with Willsapper and red epic

Of note, Frostreaver (my primary workhorse) and Epic 2hs will suffer disproportionally if you get slowed or have torpor as the majority of 2hander threat comes from white damage potential. For Frostreaver the white damage is 80% of total threat potential.

For that reason, I'd consider WS/Red_epic functionally 3rd best.

[remen]

Yeah top setups on the list:

1. SoD/SoD (or combinations including 1)
2. Feverblade + red epic
3. Epic 2h
4. Frostreaver tied with Willsapper and red epic

Of note, Frostreaver (my primary workhorse) and Epic 2hs will suffer disproportionally if you get slowed or have torpor as the majority of 2hander threat comes from white damage potential. For Frostreaver the white damage is 80% of total threat potential.

For that reason, I'd consider WS/Red_epic functionally 3rd best.

So you think willsapper > feverblade then for the extra AC / HP, or is the extra 5 hate per second worth sacrificing the stats? Just wondering why you left feverblade off your list there in the #3 / #4 spots

According to the spreadsheet, feverblade / nev horn is a good bit more agro than both the 2h epic and the frostreaver, and willsapper / nev horn is almost identical to frostreaver. For stats comparison: Sapper / Horn is +29ac +35hp, Frostreaver is +50hp & resists, and feverblade / nev is just +20ac.

I'm surprised I've never really seen a main tank using feverblade given it's hate per second, do you think that maybe a lot are not aware of how much agro it does, or is it the lack of other stats that causes people to not use it?

[Troxx]

I'm not to creator or owner of the list. Not sure why he structured it that way.

His listing at the bottom is subjective but the numbers at the top are solid gold.

[Dolalin]

This was the post I had in mind when saying Infestation was higher threat than Willsapper.

https://www.project1999.com/forums/showpost.php?p=2890147&postcount=35

Maybe there was some confusion over how much hate the dot component produces. I have to admit I'm a little unsure of what correct now, haven't been playing my warrior in awhile.

[aaezil]

Anecdotal but ive seen epic 2 hander out aggro trident/epic or willsapper/epic many times post 2 hander patch

[Troxx]

Anecdotal but ive seen epic 2 hander out aggro trident/epic or willsapper/epic many times post 2 hander patch

The math supports it.

2hand threat is real.

[Synthlol]

I'm surprised I've never really seen a main tank using feverblade given it's hate per second, do you think that maybe a lot are not aware of how much agro it does, or is it the lack of other stats that causes people to not use it?

I've been using feverblade since 2013.

It was OP back then, and it still is.

I just like my monk better.

[Solist]

Feverblade used to be absolutely phenominal (outright fucking insane, make shissar look retardedly bad), now it's just best in slot for all but a few people with sod's.

Which is good as now it isn't a server of 'warriors with feverblade, and warriors without' and there being a 20% hate/sec difference. Pretty much use whatever you want now and who cares as its all broken.

[Troxx]

Feverblade used to be absolutely phenominal (outright fucking insane, make shissar look retardedly bad), now it's just best in slot for all but a few people with sod's.

Which is good as now it isn't a server of 'warriors with feverblade, and warriors without' and there being a 20% hate/sec difference. Pretty much use whatever you want now and who cares as its all broken.

The biggest fallen angel will always be WESS. At 22 threat per swing and 83.48 swings per minute and a ~2k threat proc (4x poison counters + blind + debuff) it clocked in at just under 100 hate per second. The ratio wasn’t great but you never really lost aggro once the first proc hit. Now? 44 threat per second.

Infestation also used to be about 70 hate per second ... about 8.5% better than scepter of destruction. Feverblade was about 84 hate per second.

[remen]

Lotta great info in this thread, thanks everyone!

This was the post I had in mind when saying Infestation was higher threat than Willsapper.

https://www.project1999.com/forums/showpost.php?p=2890147&postcount=35

Maybe there was some confusion over how much hate the dot component produces. I have to admit I'm a little unsure of what correct now, haven't been playing my warrior in awhile.

So the post you linked to seems to contradict a lot of the info on the agro spreadsheet posted. I don't really understand the calculations in the first part of his formula there, but the 2nd part of it looks to include the DoT damage from a proc into the agro equation. Do we know exactly how agro works for the DoT component of a proc...does the entirety of it factor in when the weapon procs, or is he projecting the damage from the proc as it ticks as part of the agro equation? If it's the latter, then his calculations aren't entirely accurate as a new proc before a DoT finishes only refreshes the DoT timer, meaning that you won't get the full damage if a 2nd proc occurs before the first concludes. It does bring up an interesting point though that the damage from a DoT portion of a proc should be included into the agro calculations in some way. What do you guys think?

I've been using feverblade since 2013.

It was OP back then, and it still is.

I just like my monk better.

I'm really surprised I have never heard all the praise for feverblade before this thread, all the main tanks I have seen have gone after epic, trident, willsapper, and a bunch of other things...I don't know that I have ever seen someone using the feverblade. Do y'all think it's because of the lack of secondary stats, lack of knowledge about it, or just a stigma against using a VP weapon for main tanking velious stuff?

Feverblade used to be absolutely phenominal (outright fucking insane, make shissar look retardedly bad), now it's just best in slot for all but a few people with sod's.

Which is good as now it isn't a server of 'warriors with feverblade, and warriors without' and there being a 20% hate/sec difference. Pretty much use whatever you want now and who cares as its all broken.

So with the new proc agro changes, does it make more sense to use something with more HP / AC / resists? In theory, we are grabbing agro on incoming with clickies, and all of the main DPS classes should be dumping their agro throughout the fight, so keeping agro through procs shouldn't theoretically be an issue, although in reality I'm sure some DPS classes don't always remember to dump agro. It does make me wonder though if we could get away with using something like dagarn's tail (25ac 75hp 12/19 ratio and 65dd proc) or even dagas (20ac 100hp 11/21 ratio) in the offhand for their stats and still maintain agro without too much trouble.

[Goodest]

I have dame near all these dumb things... for my War.

best combo for keeping aggro in Riot is Feverblade + jalen's/red epic combo and 2hs Frostreaver > 2hs epic. Will sapper SUCKS at holding aggro off rogs and rangers its streaky at best ill only use it on a slow able mob once its slowed flip to feverblade.

if you get a VP key the https://wiki.project1999.com/Veldrak%27s_Shortblade (one with a stun and fire base dd 179 proc) and https://wiki.project1999.com/Veridix%27s_Shortsword (magic base 179 dd and stun) rot most of the time
those really hold aggro VERY well now a
days

feverblade over infest due to the 4 counters + 110 dd vs 3 with no dd?

i have nevs horn its nice for DPS but the proc doesn't do much any more i cant hold aggro with it.

[Snaggles]

Not to argue from a fatalist perspective but if a rogue/ranger is having aggro problems they should try harder to avoid getting hit. This is very easy...you just ease-in to the target or adjust to the tank you have. As the warrior, if you BIS weapons, or a selection of them, you are still beholden to rng procs unless burning mallet charges, etc.

The main reason you bring a warrior over a knight is tanking disciplines (raid) or dps/mitigation (most group content). I wouldn't dismiss DPS from the equation to use an infestation...not that I should speak, my mid 50's warrior is using a frostbringer and sarnak warhammer for aggro :p. Id die to have one lol.

As a rogue of like 6 years on live though I always watched my ass. P99 players in general seem to be more likely to blame the tank. An odd dynamic for sure.