SK Troll/Ogre INT or STA starting stat debate. Confused :(

[Xruptor]

So after a few days of watching me play Everquest on the Green server, two of my buddies want to join and play as well. We all decided to make new toons and just level up together. I'm probably going to go Cleric and one other buddy will be a Caster/Melee. The one I'm having an issue with is my buddy that wants to play a Shadow Knight.

I explained to him the Shadow Knight and he was intrigued and wanted to play one. So he asked me to lookup how he could startup his character. I offered to research that for him and thus this is where my headache all started.

After much research on google, wiki, forums, blogs, etc... the only thing I could tell him. "I have no idea!".

So if you put aside the 5 AGI required for Ogre to get 75. The Iksar or go home speech. The hybrid vs race penalty discussion. The front FSI vs Troll Regen speech.


This is pretty much what I've put together.


You have people saying go all STAMINA. Int is easy to cap later with gear like skyfire or what not. Stamina isn't easy to cap and honestly having more int isn't going to make a difference. You want to have MORE health. You will regret it later, especially while leveling!
Then you have the people saying, go all INTELLECT because INT is harder to get later. Stamina you will max out with gear. You want to have more mana to get life taps off and honestly more STAMINA will be negligible later with heals and buffs. The stats say 180hp is going to do much but 200 more mana will. Etc.. etc..
NO No NO Don't go Full STA and INT, instead go like 10 INTELLECT and 10 STAMINA. Balance it out! Because you will regret dumping it all in one stat later.
Don't do full STR, INT, or STA! You want to balance it out between STA and AGI. More health and higher chance to dodge!
Don't put anything in STR and just distribute between STA, INT, AGI


It's so convoluted and contradicting all over the place. Especially folks whom say the stuff found on the following wiki is outdated and you shouldn't follow it.
https://wiki.project1999.com/Shadow_Knight
There seems to be outdated and misinformation everywhere, with folks claiming this and that is outdated.

I believe he wants to go with Troll SK (But I honestly have to ask him again). He is aware of the FSI for Ogre after I explained it to him. He just doesn't like the Ogre that much compared to Troll. We are aware he will level slower but we don't care. We don't mind helping him grind it out. Though he will consider playing Ogre if valid reasons are given.

I just don't know what to tell him at this point. You have people giving opinions all over the place and it's just so confusing. He doesn't want to gimp his character and there will be times we won't be around that he wants to solo or what not to catch up.

Any help or advice would be great.

[Danth]

It should give you confidence knowing you aren't going to break your character no matter which path you choose. People have done all of those things and succeeded. Personally I'm a proponent on INT on Ogre/Troll.

Danth

[Invalid_Bard]

Ogre is awesome due to their high str/sta from the get go. Same with trolls, they just have a little less. Going full int won't hurt at all. By the time the servers life span is over capping str/sta will be easily done. A lot of SK items down the road have a lot of int and more mana never hurt any hybrod.

[Brut]

5agi rest Dex is what em goes with.
Str/Sta get capped easily with later expansion gear, and shm buff you absolutely cap them.

Int is alternative, but imo it's not that necessary. You might want it if you solo a lot, but, why would you roll an SK instead of a necro or something then. Disease Cloud costs 10mana. There's no huge need for a large mana pool.

[Hroth]

Stamina really is not that important for leveling.You really can't go wrong as long as have 75+ agi and don't dump any points into cha or wis. Strength is a strong stat for leveling as it lets you carry more loot and makes you hit for max more often. I personally split mine as a troll across str and int.

In regards to race, go with whatever is more visually pleasing. EQ is a long game, and even if you play in first person you'll still end up looking at your character a lot. FSI may save your life a couple times on the way to 50, but so will the increased regen of a troll. Heck the size of DE will probably save a couple lives on the way to 50 as well due to fatties getting stuck in a door while goblins/frogs/kobolds/skeletons beat on their ass.

Troll SK will level slower, but if you're all grouping together regularly you can help him keep up.

[Xruptor]

Hmm then it seems it's leaning towards the full INT department. I have spoken with a few people in game and some have said full STA. One person regretted going full INT. I haven't come across anyone whom regretted going full STA though. One guy did full INT and said it was worth it for the extra spell casts and that STA wasn't much of an issue. So I suppose it works either way. I don't see what having extra INT would hurt. So maybe my friend should do that.

He also decided to stick with Troll for the SK. So there's that. He prefers the regen in the long run.

[Danth]

Having high innate stamina is nice during the old world and Kunark periods where gear/buffs to cap it are in short supply. Even in full raid buffs an Ogre during this period will often have nearly a 10% total health advantage over something like a Dark Elf. It's not enough to render the Dark Elf unable to do his job, but it's enough that the player should be aware of it. Later on, after Velious opens, it's not such an issue. My Human SK on "Blue" with zero points in stamina (80 base) and only mid-range equipment can reach 235 if he wants to and would cap it if I cared enough to buy a few more pieces of stamina gear. Most of an Ogre's benefit will be wasted by that point. Countering the importance of health to some extent is that Shadow Knights are not usually used as raid main tanks on P1999 and that's where the high health matters most. All tank types have enough innate health to tank any level-appropriate group content.

High intelligence is nice mostly for Shadow Knights who solo a lot. It sucks having to feign out of a difficult encounter because of running out of mana. In normal groups it's generally not an important stat--mana regen is by FAR the more limiting problem. There are some niche situations that can strain a mana bar as well (such as having to feign a great many times in rapid succession) but these situations are relatively few and far between.

Dexterity is a niche choice since there aren't really all that many Shadow Knight weapons with good special effects, but the few there are tend to be REALLY good--most particularly (but not only) the epic. Indeed, when wielding the epic DEX practically becomes the Shadow Knight's most important stat. It may be worth a look if you know you'll be obtaining one of these types of weapons. I'm not enough of a fan of "vampiric embrace"--by itself--to recommend DEX solely for that spell's benefit. It's a nice spell, but not THAT nice.

You want 75 base agility minimum. This effects Ogres and Erudites. You can live without it, but there's no good reason to do so.

When it comes to the large races, as I said before you can't really "break" one. All of these various allocations have been used to great success by various players.

Danth

[Gatorsmash]

5agi rest Dex is what em goes with.
Str/Sta get capped easily with later expansion gear, and shm buff you absolutely cap them.

Int is alternative, but imo it's not that necessary. You might want it if you solo a lot, but, why would you roll an SK instead of a necro or something then. Disease Cloud costs 10mana. There's no huge need for a large mana pool.

^ this right here.

There is zip dex on SK gear, and later on in the levels mana does become a problem for larger race non-raiding players, but to this day I clearly remember dex being a problem because it's so low.

[Xruptor]

Thanks all. My friend created his character using your advice/opinions and he is happy with it. We shall see how things go. Hopefully he has fun with it. We are going to be an oddball group. DE Cleric, DE Necro, Troll SK.

[Crede]

Thanks all. My friend created his character using your advice/opinions and he is happy with it. We shall see how things go. Hopefully he has fun with it. We are going to be an oddball group. DE Cleric, DE Necro, Troll SK.

Solid choice, but if necro isn't sold then switch to an Enc and you have arguably the best trio in the game. SK can be swapped out for a monk but I prefer the SK for snap aggro to give the enc a bit more flexibility to avoid pulling aggro and helping out in those oh shit moments.

[Crede]

^ this right here.

There is zip dex on SK gear, and later on in the levels mana does become a problem for larger race non-raiding players, but to this day I clearly remember dex being a problem because it's so low.

https://wiki.project1999.com/Blood_Sky_Face_Plate

https://wiki.project1999.com/Pearlescent_Pauldrons

https://wiki.project1999.com/Crimson_Ring_of_the_Djinni

https://wiki.project1999.com/Twisted_Bone_Earring

[Snaggles]

FSI is nice for reverse kiting and FD splitting. Bash is the first attack (I believe) npc’s use so those are the most noticeable moments.

Really though any race works. It’s further proof the player/gear/level makes the toon, not starting stats and some minor perks. It also makes the debate that much more ridiculous for classes that can’t pick an ogre or regen class.

[Xruptor]

FSI is nice for reverse kiting and FD splitting. Bash is the first attack (I believe) npc’s use so those are the most noticeable moments.

Really though any race works. It’s further proof the player/gear/level makes the toon, not starting stats and some minor perks. It also makes the debate that much more ridiculous for classes that can’t pick an ogre or regen class.

I was thinking that myself. What about all the other classes that can't pick Ogre or Troll as a race? Does that mean all of those are gimped as well because they don't have the Ogre's Front Stun Immunity or Troll's HP Regen? I mean they do fine without it and those other races have their perks as well.

Although countless articles, wiki's, blogs, posts and such I've read have all agreed that making a Dark Elf Shadow Knight is not a good idea. Apparently they don't make great Shadow Knight tanks or some such. Which makes no sense to me honestly. Then why offer Shadow Knight to another other race other than Troll or Ogre?

[Troxx]

Prioritizing dexterity on a SK is very narrow sighted and hinges on one specific weapon you may or may not ever see ... and a weapon in several ways outclassed by ToV drops. 15-20 more dex under the cap works out to 0.1-0.13 more procs per minute of below 255 dex on a proc that lasts 5 ticks.

190 vs 210 dex (or 150 vs 170) on an epic sk (30sec duration proc tap) will be nearly imperceptible. By the time you have epic you’ll be rolling around with shamans who can stack dex/focus to the tune of +130 your unbuffed.

Dex isn’t a bad choice but to make your decisions at level 1 solely on one weapon in the game and insisting it’s the best choice is giggle worthy. Especially when there are racial choices that at 60 give you permanent uptime healing regen 1/5 the potency of this weapon proc.

As has been pointed out, as long as you have 75 base agility you can dump your points into anything but cha/wisdom and not have made a mistake.

[Snaggles]

I was thinking that myself. What about all the other classes that can't pick Ogre or Troll as a race? Does that mean all of those are gimped as well because they don't have the Ogre's Front Stun Immunity or Troll's HP Regen? I mean they do fine without it and those other races have their perks as well.

Although countless articles, wiki's, blogs, posts and such I've read have all agreed that making a Dark Elf Shadow Knight is not a good idea. Apparently they don't make great Shadow Knight tanks or some such. Which makes no sense to me honestly. Then why offer Shadow Knight to another other race other than Troll or Ogre?


I’ve had people send random tells to my Eru paladin asking if I regretted my race choice over a better stat one. I literally said, “I see a LOT of dark elf sk’s and they could have rolled Ogre.” Shuts them up quick.

I don’t think it’s a “bad” option though. Just a few hundred less hps and less than optimal melee stats. No slam (a case for a 1h/shield) or racial perk. Maybe a bit harder to solo but you are also not eating a 15% or 20% do penalty (far more on green). You gotta go with what makes you happy because the one constant in this game of pixel lust is you will be staring at your character a LOT.

[Xruptor]

I’ve had people send random tells to my Eru paladin asking if I regretted my race choice over a better stat one. I literally said, “I see a LOT of dark elf sk’s and they could have rolled Ogre.” Shuts them up quick.

I don’t think it’s a “bad” option though. Just a few hundred less hps and less than optimal melee stats. No slam (a case for a 1h/shield) or racial perk. Maybe a bit harder to solo but you are also not eating a 15% or 20% do penalty (far more on green). You gotta go with what makes you happy because the one constant in this game of pixel lust is you will be staring at your character a LOT.

Yeah that's what I mostly read. Just some missing HP and no FSI/Regen for DE. Though folks still play them regardless. Otherwise no point in playing Erudite/Human/DE SK. That's what I told my friend.

[Crede]

Yeah that's what I mostly read. Just some missing HP and no FSI/Regen for DE. Though folks still play them regardless. Otherwise no point in playing Erudite/Human/DE SK. That's what I told my friend.

Play what you like to stare at(sk Can skelly illusion at 55) but don’t just dismiss those differences. People pay a shitload of pp/dkp to get those extra stats whereas you already have a lot of that with trolls/ogres at birth.

Int doesn’t mean shit on an SK. I’ve also played tons of rare combos like erudite pally and I’m just having way more fun being beefier on my troll sk. Slam is also a big deal., and you don’t have to depend on 1 weapon to do it. People talk about how stats don’t matter in velious but they do unless you’re hardcore raiding and in that case you’ve already kinda won.

[Brut]

Prioritizing dexterity on a SK is very narrow sighted and hinges on one specific weapon you may or may not ever see ... and a weapon in several ways outclassed by ToV drops. 15-20 more dex under the cap works out to 0.1-0.13 more procs per minute of below 255 dex on a proc that lasts 5 ticks.

190 vs 210 dex (or 150 vs 170) on an epic sk (30sec duration proc tap) will be nearly imperceptible. By the time you have epic you’ll be rolling around with shamans who can stack dex/focus to the tune of +130 your unbuffed.

Dex isn’t a bad choice but to make your decisions at level 1 solely on one weapon in the game and insisting it’s the best choice is giggle worthy. Especially when there are racial choices that at 60 give you permanent uptime healing regen 1/5 the potency of this weapon proc.

As has been pointed out, as long as you have 75 base agility you can dump your points into anything but cha/wisdom and not have made a mistake.

But slapping points into stats I am guaranteed to cap later isn't narrow sighted?
By the rate you sit on 255str/sta in Velious, those starting skill points might as well have gone to charisma then.

Racial choices aren't a thing. If your class can pick Ogre, pick Ogre. Unless cosmetics or whatever are priority, then do whatever. /burp

[Crede]

But slapping points into stats I am guaranteed to cap later isn't narrow sighted?
By the rate you sit on 255str/sta in Velious, those starting skill points might as well have gone to charisma then.

Racial choices aren't a thing. If your class can pick Ogre, pick Ogre. Unless cosmetics or whatever are priority, then do whatever. /burp

FSI isn’t that great anymore after the latest patch.

Infinite troll regen > FSI 2.0

[Chardy]

FSI on a shadowknight has saved my life more times than i can count by allowing my FD to go uninterrupted in a swarm.

[Gustoo]

I would go with +5 agility, and then full intelligence on an ogre SK

Without spells you are just a shitty version of a warrior. The bigger mana pool is worth having since all these other stats max so easily.

Other races its harder to choose because they are so weak low levels but do fine later on. The ogre racials are the best racials, definitely want them.

[Xruptor]

My friend figured the Troll Regen would be worth it in the long run. Plus he liked how they looked. Worse case scenario if he can try a Ogre for awhile as well and see if he likes that.

[Snaggles]

My friend figured the Troll Regen would be worth it in the long run. Plus he liked how they looked. Worse case scenario if he can try a Ogre for awhile as well and see if he likes that.

All that's important.

[Gatorsmash]

https://wiki.project1999.com/Blood_Sky_Face_Plate

https://wiki.project1999.com/Pearlescent_Pauldrons

https://wiki.project1999.com/Crimson_Ring_of_the_Djinni

https://wiki.project1999.com/Twisted_Bone_Earring

Me - "does become a problem for larger race non-raiding players"

Crede - let me take the time to LINK a bunch of RAID only items. GOTCHA!2@

.....ok anyway. I went INT but only because I forgot the problems I had years ago on live with finding dex gear to make our weapon proc spell line effective. Which is what we are referring too, not end game epic like weapons

On a side note, I've been here since launch (i dont even remember my original forum account) when did the forums become the YouTube comment section?

[Troxx]

Unless p99 is different than live, spell based proc buffs are NOT influenced by dexterity. Those procs fire (or should) at a static 2 procs per minute.

[Nagoya]

Yep, Danth/Gatorsmash/others... DEX only affect weapon-based procs, not spell-based procs, so capping DEX on your SK will not help your Vampiric Embrace the slightest.

I started a Human SK on Green, went +20 STR. No regrets.
FashionQuest > everything. Then as everyone said: 75 AGI, anything but WIS/CHA.
Don't overthink it ;) most important stat in EQ is level, then gear.

Enjoy your trio!

[Brut]

People saying fashionquest as if going Ogre ain't fashionquest.
Nothing beats handsome beef face ogre in full plate wielding a sword guard between his fingers.
Not sure who was talking about Vamb Embrace in the first place, but my opinion mostly stems from the part where there are 4 melee skills, that are imo priority since Int doesn't really do all that much in the long run. Agi doesn't give much past 75, and as said, people will cap Str and Sta easily. Dex isn't so easy to cap. It's really just a matter of "I didn't completely waste the points" to me.

[Xruptor]

Everyone keeps mentioning these fashion quest. Is there any place that has pictures of what the Human, DE, Ogre, and Troll Shadow Knight armor will look like?

[BlackBellamy]

People saying fashionquest as if going Ogre ain't fashionquest.
Nothing beats handsome beef face ogre in full plate wielding a sword guard between his fingers.
.

Of course Ogre best fashionquest! Ogre has most surface area and the most glorious pixels!

I have to squint to admire some glowing runt? Nah brah.

[Crede]

Everyone keeps mentioning these fashion quest. Is there any place that has pictures of what the Human, DE, Ogre, and Troll Shadow Knight armor will look like?

https://wiki.project1999.com/Players:Fashion

That will give you some idea. Velious armor has different shades depending on which zone it’s from, but I think most people would agree kael looks the coolest. Best in slot velious is not fashionable but you’re a long way from that on green.

I like every sk race in plate(except that awful bugged erudite velious helm).

[Nirgon]

FSI on a shadowknight has saved my life more times than i can count by allowing my FD to go uninterrupted in a swarm.

FSI or incel

[Siege]

I've rolled 3 Troll SKs over the years. My first was in retail, which I rolled on day one, and my other two are on Blue and Green.

Based on my past experience playing Troll SK, I put all of my starting points into Intelligence when I rolled a new one on Green. It made sense to me since I rarely die before blowing through my mana pool. I don't plan on raiding much, if at all, so there's no reason for me to assume that I'll ever hit the Intelligence cap, and Troll melee stats are already stellar. SKs end up getting twice as much mana (10) per point of Intelligence than they get hit points (5.2) per point of Stamina by the time the level cap is increased to 60 so it seemed like the natural choice.

The argument for putting all starting points into Stamina is sound, but only if you plan on focusing more on the end game, which means raiding. For every other aspect of the game, I think mana is a more decisive factor than hit points, especially when soloing. Being able to grab another tool out of your fairly robust toolbox will come in handy more often than a hit point boost.

[Xruptor]

I've rolled 3 Troll SKs over the years. My first was in retail, which I rolled on day one, and my other two are on Blue and Green.

Based on my past experience playing Troll SK, I put all of my starting points into Intelligence when I rolled a new one on Green. It made sense to me since I rarely die before blowing through my mana pool. I don't plan on raiding much, if at all, so there's no reason for me to assume that I'll ever hit the Intelligence cap, and Troll melee stats are already stellar. SKs end up getting twice as much mana (10) per point of Intelligence than they get hit points (5.2) per point of Stamina by the time the level cap is increased to 60 so it seemed like the natural choice.

The argument for putting all starting points into Stamina is sound, but only if you plan on focusing more on the end game, which means raiding. For every other aspect of the game, I think mana is a more decisive factor than hit points, especially when soloing. Being able to grab another tool out of your fairly robust toolbox will come in handy more often than a hit point boost.

Thanks for the response. It helps a lot. He ended up going with full INT on his Troll SK after carefully considering what everyone has said.


Here is another question for you all. Does diety mean much for my friend as a Troll SK? He picked Innoruk but doesn't know if that will affect him greatly in other cities. Where would he be KoS? Can he enter Oggok and Neriak with no issues? What difference would it have made if he picked CZ?

[Brut]

Ogre and Troll SKs are not friendly, shaman guild might hate trolls as well. Neriak also some areas, like the clothie casters are likely hostile. It's not too hard to avoid their areas though.

There's not much difference for evils regarding deity since they're just as hated by other races either which way. Troll SKs it only really affects cultural armor sets years from now, since they don't get the troll Shm clicky idol either.

[Gustoo]

End game your stamina is pegged to the max, intelligence is usually not pegged.

I don't see a good argument for not going full intelligence on an SK. Like I said before an SK without spells is just a shit version of a warrior.

[Crede]

End game your stamina is pegged to the max, intelligence is usually not pegged.

I don't see a good argument for not going full intelligence on an SK. Like I said before an SK without spells is just a shit version of a warrior.

Because not everyone is playing their SK to the end game to max STA? I've talked to raiding troll SKs that still wish they had more stamina. People talk about maxing stats in velious being a cakewalk. It's really not unless you're raiding pretty hardcore.

In 99.9% situations a slightly bigger INT pool doesn't mean dick on a SK, it's about the mana regen. They're not like clerics and other casters on raids where you really need that 100% - 0% mana range.

[Brut]

End game your stamina is pegged to the max, intelligence is usually not pegged.

I don't see a good argument for not going full intelligence on an SK. Like I said before an SK without spells is just a shit version of a warrior.

And an SK with spells is just a shit version of a necromancer.
If I wanted to fear kite and lifetap mobs and solo, I'd rolled a solo class for it. SK in group environment doesn't run out of mana, since the aggro spells cost nothing.

[Gatorsmash]

Thanks for the response. It helps a lot. He ended up going with full INT on his Troll SK after carefully considering what everyone has said.


Here is another question for you all. Does diety mean much for my friend as a Troll SK? He picked Innoruk but doesn't know if that will affect him greatly in other cities. Where would he be KoS? Can he enter Oggok and Neriak with no issues? What difference would it have made if he picked CZ?

Yes. But not what you think it would be for. If you pick Inny you cant get any racial made armor since trolls never had their's put in game so you are stuck with Ogre stuff which only comes in Cazic or Rallo's flavors.

[BlackBellamy]

Initial stat allocation means dick for the raiding end game. People talk about raiding oh hit points this or mana that, yeah great. I want to hear from any lv 60 SKs here about their tragic stories from a raid that went sour because they were missing a hundred hit points or two hundred mana. Yeah we almost had Vox but muh hundred....

That's just ridiculous min-max theoretical stuff, in practice the application is minimal. It's just perception. Literally no one outside the toon is going to notice Player X has a 100 less or more hp in a situation where you're getting quad hits of 600 or hiroshima nukes.

The only real effect your initial stat allocation has any effect is the mid-game, where the level-based formulas actually let you notice the effect, and you don't have super gear yet to plug your holes. And it's really a reflection of your chosen play style. I like to tank in groups and I also like to sit there by myself and process blues. In the first situation I never need mana. In the second mana is my bottleneck.

Having said that I regret my initial stat allocation and wish I went with the most hardcore choice: full AGI.

[Xruptor]

Yes. But not what you think it would be for. If you pick Inny you cant get any racial made armor since trolls never had their's put in game so you are stuck with Ogre stuff which only comes in Cazic or Rallo's flavors.

So there is no Troll Inny armor but if he went CZ there would be troll armor? He doesn't really want to wear ogre stuff lol. He wants to stick to troll. So I'm assuming he has to reroll to Troll SK CZ then? He is currently only level 3 so it's not much of a big deal.

Though to be fair he has been thinking of switching to Dark Elf SK. Even though everyone said they are weak choice for SK and leveling up will be a pain. Most say if you aren't going Troll/Ogre go Human instead (for small race). Eh lets see what he does.


Initial stat allocation means dick for the raiding end game. People talk about raiding oh hit points this or mana that, yeah great. I want to hear from any lv 60 SKs here about their tragic stories from a raid that went sour because they were missing a hundred hit points or two hundred mana. Yeah we almost had Vox but muh hundred....

That's just ridiculous min-max theoretical stuff, in practice the application is minimal. It's just perception. Literally no one outside the toon is going to notice Player X has a 100 less or more hp in a situation where you're getting quad hits of 600 or hiroshima nukes.

The only real effect your initial stat allocation has any effect is the mid-game, where the level-based formulas actually let you notice the effect, and you don't have super gear yet to plug your holes. And it's really a reflection of your chosen play style. I like to tank in groups and I also like to sit there by myself and process blues. In the first situation I never need mana. In the second mana is my bottleneck.

Having said that I regret my initial stat allocation and wish I went with the most hardcore choice: full AGI.


This is part of the reason why he is considering switching to Dark Elf Shadow Knight. Even though most say that's a TERRIBLE idea from what I've read/seen.

[Gatorsmash]

So there is no Troll Inny armor but if he went CZ there would be troll armor? He doesn't really want to wear ogre stuff lol. He wants to stick to troll. So I'm assuming he has to reroll to Troll SK CZ then? He is currently only level 3 so it's not much of a big deal.

Though to be fair he has been thinking of switching to Dark Elf SK. Even though everyone said they are weak choice for SK and leveling up will be a pain. Most say if you aren't going Troll/Ogre go Human instead (for small race). Eh lets see what he does.

This is part of the reason why he is considering switching to Dark Elf Shadow Knight. Even though most say that's a TERRIBLE idea from what I've read/seen.

It's all ogre- troll wearable including the weapons, I -think- it falls between raid drops and group dropped gear, but its been awhile. The only other thing is picking cazic makes the Kunark quest stuff grind a bit easier. Believe Inny sk was bottom of the rung on faction.

The DE choice really falls on the fashion quest side of things just because every stat and racial ability for ogre-troll lines up perfectly with Shadowknight. Dark elves dont really bring anything to the table better. Their intelligence is higher, but your not nuking shit down, your banging on it with melee weapons and the Darkelf is 48 points (troll) and 70! Points (ogre) behind, which relates directly to your attack #, and damage.

Edit- and you can get the guise if DE is really that important.

[Baler]

SK troll is the defacto best race for raiding puller/tagger SK
SK is one of the best taggers in Velious.

[Xruptor]

It's all ogre- troll wearable including the weapons, I -think- it falls between raid drops and group dropped gear, but its been awhile. The only other thing is picking cazic makes the Kunark quest stuff grind a bit easier. Believe Inny sk was bottom of the rung on faction.

The DE choice really falls on the fashion quest side of things just because every stat and racial ability for ogre-troll lines up perfectly with Shadowknight. Dark elves dont really bring anything to the table better. Their intelligence is higher, but your not nuking shit down, your banging on it with melee weapons and the Darkelf is 48 points (troll) and 70! Points (ogre) behind, which relates directly to your attack #, and damage.

Edit- and you can get the guise if DE is really that important.

Thanks that is really helpful. He got his Troll SK Inny to level 5. I think he's good with his race choice and diety. He was just a bit worried about his choice of Race/Stats and Diety. He knows folks keep saying go Ogre for FSI and stats, but he still prefers the Troll. On top of that only primary reason I think he was going DE (although I'd have to ask him again) is that it's a small race and he has a fondness for evil races like the DE's. But he's cool with the Troll. (Well for now until he bothers me YET AGAIN about race LOL).

[bradsamma]

For a troll, it doesn't really matter. You'd be fine putting the points into charisma.

You'll be marginally better off putting the points into stamina but ultimately it doesn't matter. Strength let's you hit a little harder but it's already pretty high. Max int would allow you to cast... half a spell...

[Videri]

Max int would allow you to cast... half a spell...

On the contrary. 20 points into intelligence at level 60 would give you 240 mana. Hybrids have the same mana calculations as priests/casters.

[Noselacri]

Capping stamina isn't as easy as people make it out to be. Sure, if you're raiding ToV it's not an issue, but anything less and you're unlikely to cap it even as an ogre/troll with shaman buffs. For some reason, SK gear has terrible stamina. The planar set gives 14. The Thurg and Kael sets give a total of 12 and 11 stamina respectively. In Kunark, the class set gives 8 from the BP and that's it. An ogre with 15 points in stam needs about 60 more from gear to cap out with sham buff. There's also value in having capped stamina in resist gear, or without the shaman buff so that you free up an extra buff slot. That's not happening until you're raid-geared in Velious, and 95% of players don't get to raid at all.

Intelligence is almost completely useless to a SK. Mana pool matters to quad kiters and clerics, not to a class that spends most of its life spamming 10-mana spells. In order for the size of your mana pool to matter, you'd have to be going from 100% to 0% mana in one go and still need more. As a SK, that's not really a thing that happens. You don't pour a full mana bar into one mob. At level 50, those fifteen points in int will give you half the mana cost of one lifetap. If you have to put your points into something that isn't stamina, you might as well pick agility and get something out of it.

[Jimjam]

If you find yourself easily confused, invest your starting points into int.

If, on the other hand, you are getting tired, invest in stamina.

Edit: but seriously, this is my sk on blue (http://wiki.project1999.com/Magelo_Blue:Nareik) and he has pretty reasonable gear (no ntov, some skyshrine) and he is far away from maxing intelligence or stamina.

Your starting stats won't be 'wasted' by being capped until you are really well geared, and when you are 1 SK surrounded by dozens of other people I don't think it will really matter.

I never regretted having low intelligence. I can usually manage it in a way where it stays functional, and it's kinda nice how quickly the mana bar refills!

[Snaggles]

I had a ogre sk on live and can’t recall ever having mana issues unless pulling some real solo trickery (far past xp grinding). In groups DC and clinging darkness did just fine by me.

Regardless of race I would make sure agil is 75 and go stamina. A few hundred hps won’t enable you to tank (or not tank) something but it’s often what you finally end up zoning or feigning with. More max mana is great but mana regen is the sustainable game. I’d even rather have higher base strength because a lot of the cheap higher ac stuff is heavy and unless you are walking around capped that is at least a passive attack increase.

[Gustoo]

81 intelligence is over 100 points less than your stamina, which could be maxxed with some more good gear.

I don't see an argument against intelligence, for a min max

[Jimjam]

81 intelligence is over 100 points less than your stamina, which could be maxxed with some more good gear.

I don't see an argument against intelligence, for a min max

Its a fair argument Gustoo. Maybe if i work on the SK he'll get to the point where I don't have enough mana to safely split, etc and i'll (or groupmates) will start dieing cos I'm oom, but i haven't reached there yet.

Btw please make some gear suggestions. I can't decide between gladiator chain arm/legs or skyshrine. Any other suggestions either?

[Danth]

Its a fair argument Gustoo. Maybe if i work on the SK he'll get to the point where I don't have enough mana to safely split, etc and i'll (or groupmates) will start dieing cos I'm oom, but i haven't reached there yet.

That won't happen. I've been using my Shadow Knight a long time and there are a few situations that run me out of mana, but none of them have much to do with ordinary group activities. What does? Solo can, often enough. That's by far the most common case of straining the mana bar. I have at times had solo battles where being able to cast a couple extra taps or an extra snare meant the difference between winning or losing, and lots more cases where having some extra mana allowed for maintaining the safety net of at least being able to feign if needed. I've also occasionally lost solo battles due to running out of mana. Some niche situations where I need to do burst damage (such as getting an add while duo'ing that has to die ASAP) also strain the mana bar. Very high-level Shadow Knights do respectable burst damage while the mana bar lasts. Finally, I've run into a few situations where I've had to feign many many times in succession and run myself low or out of mana that way. That last one hasn't happened recently since FD-memblur was tinkered with but I'll mention it anyway.

I like INT on the large races because their normal melee statistics are so high to begin with, but it's not required and other allocations give good service as well. You can't really hurt a large race character the same way something like a Dark Elf on a fresh server with no added strength will be in for a bad time for awhile.

Danth

[rostant]

It should give you confidence knowing you aren't going to break your character no matter (https://www.bevwo.com/) which path you choose. People have done all of those things and succeeded. Personally I'm a proponent on INT on Ogre/Troll.

[Xruptor]

Just an update. We are all leveling slow and steady. He is doing pretty well now. Enjoy's the SK but still has doubts about picking Troll over Ogre/DE. Eh I suppose that will always be a thing. He still like the troll model though. It also helps that I'm tossing heals at him every so often. lol

[Nizilfkm]

Just an update. We are all leveling slow and steady. He is doing pretty well now. Enjoy's the SK but still has doubts about picking Troll over Ogre/DE. Eh I suppose that will always be a thing. He still like the troll model though. It also helps that I'm tossing heals at him every so often. lol

Post lvl 20 when regen becomes the real deal, at least the next year in classic era, he shouldn't have any complaints. It's a lot more powerful than people give it credit for when you are soloing fear-snare kiting

[Xruptor]

Post lvl 20 when regen becomes the real deal, at least the next year in classic era, he shouldn't have any complaints. It's a lot more powerful than people give it credit for when you are soloing fear-snare kiting

Yeah I keep telling it the Troll Regen will be worth it in the long run. He is happy with it so we shall see how things go. Worst case scenario he rerolls Ogre/DE lol. In which case would piss us off, cause we'd have to wait for him to catch up.

[Xruptor]

Well so far so good. We are level 9 now so that's not so bad. I guess he is sticking with his Troll SK. It's not as bad as we thought. Folks whom complaining about Hybrid XP in groups are overreacting. It's not THAT bad. Sure it's not 100% optimal but neither is it rock bottom terrible.

Thanks all for your help.

[Snaggles]

Well so far so good. We are level 9 now so that's not so bad. I guess he is sticking with his Troll SK. It's not as bad as we thought. Folks whom complaining about Hybrid XP in groups are overreacting. It's not THAT bad. Sure it's not 100% optimal but neither is it rock bottom terrible.

Thanks all for your help.

People really just complain about it when soloing. With a group everyone is splitting that xp up and hybrids just take a bigger slice of the pie than the rest.

That said, a capable tank is a very important part of a traditional group. I'm not on green but wouldn't mind slowing down the grind a bit for a sk or pally. Everyone has less hps so aggro control is vital. Having to track down a rez or wait for a squishy to run back to the group is going to slow down the grind even more.

[Cen]

Yeah I keep telling it the Troll Regen will be worth it in the long run. He is happy with it so we shall see how things go. Worst case scenario he rerolls Ogre/DE lol. In which case would piss us off, cause we'd have to wait for him to catch up.

Regeneration gets its own feign death table as well. It makes playing dead while AFK really handy for a quicker heal then usual.

I did something goofy on my troll and added 2 points to STR, 6 to Stamina, and rest in Intelligence. Why? So Str and Sta are 120 even and it looks appealing that way ;p lol