your hopes for red99 2.0

[pink grapefruit]

Green is out, which means it's time to get hyped for Rogean's true passion project: EQ pvp <333

It's time to roll all our red characters into blue and start the green experience with PVP ENABLED imo! Blue servers get old and bad after x many years, but this problem is so much worse on a pvp server. Server MUST reset every ~3ish years.

And I still say the absolute best thing for Project99 on the whole would be to merge blue into red and simply turn green pvp, but it doesn't seem like they're gonna go for this. Next best thing? Teams server. Bluebies love the teams idea; just ask them! And we really need lots of bluebies to sustain a healthy server population.

So what are your hopes for red 2.0??

[Frug]

> So what are your hopes for red 2.0??

That more than 19 people play it?

[WaffleztheAndal]

Red's community was, without a shred of a doubt, THE most toxic group of people I have ever witnessed in a game.

P99's PVP scene does not seem worth many resources.

[Keza]

Actual game design supporting pvp in a game that wasn't designed with pvp in mind and the permanent ban of all current and former red players from the server.

Also teams. You got me on that one. I do like the idea.

[Danger]

Green is out, which means it's time to get hyped for Rogean's true passion project: EQ pvp <333

It's time to roll all our red characters into blue and start the green experience with PVP ENABLED imo! Blue servers get old and bad after x many years, but this problem is so much worse on a pvp server. Server MUST reset every ~3ish years.

And I still say the absolute best thing for Project99 on the whole would be to merge blue into red and simply turn green pvp, but it doesn't seem like they're gonna go for this. Next best thing? Teams server. Bluebies love the teams idea; just ask them! And we really need lots of bluebies to sustain a healthy server population.

So what are your hopes for red 2.0??

What a great and constructive thread, ignore these toxic blue cyberbully players who generate more work for the CSR team than the 17 saints of red (peace be upon them)

Cant wait for red 2.0. Teams, FFA, item loot or not I'm down.

[Vivix]

I think PvP is a nice way to deal with players sitting on camps all day but the game doesn't seem balanced for it.

[pink grapefruit]

ignore these toxic blue cyberbully players

no. their concerns are valid.

when red99 1.0 started in november 2011 it had several different types of players. a few years later it died, largely due to player toxicity chasing off anyone who could not survive in a toxic environment. red 2.0 may very well be the last chance for classic eq pvp, and if we want it to thrive as more than a meme we need to learn from our past mistakes.

pvp servers used to be where all the roleplayers hung out, and had a great many casual or niche guilds. eq pvp is great not for a FPS-style mmo with elves, but because it added another dimenstion to the game... one of social depth, that is simply lacking on blue and green servers.

so imo. we need to do something to limit toxic behavior, and encourage positive interactions amongst the players. i honestly think we need to make red 2.0 bluer than any eq emu pvp has ever beeen.

[Droxx]

who generate more work for the CSR team than the 17 saints of red (peace be upon them)

Because you run every GM off of that toxic wasteland too.

[Endorra]

My main hope is that it never happens.

[Sporkotron]

a new red server wont be popular

there is no way to make eq pvp be anything but a grief fest

[Dulu]

a new red server wont be popular

there is no way to make eq pvp be anything but a grief fest

Yes, there is.

EQ itself had 4 different rulesets. And now Live EQ has a totally different PvP system. Then P99 made its own, totally unique PvP ruleset.

World of Warcraft also evolved out of some elements of EQ's PvP. Mostly Sullon Zek. (A teams PvP server based on faction.)

It can work, it's just that some of the server ideas were very bad, and Red seemed to pick and choose the worst elements.

I've written extensively on this subject all over this forum, so I'll just give a brief summation here:


#1 --- 3 Factions, tied to race/religion. Good, evil, neutral. Balance the cities/starting zones/etc. I can link a more in depth explanation of exactly how to balance them if needed. You can't interact with, trade, heal, etc anyone of the opposing faction. You can't even speak to them. (WAY less toxic this way!) Unique chat channels, obviously.

#2 --- FFA PvP in raid zones, and hotly contested high end zones. A player should be able to level to cap, and play the game completely without ever entering a FFA PvP zone. If they enter a raid zone, or something like OOT, it's FFA. Why? Because of griefers and spies.

#3 --- No level restriction on PvP. Same as Sullon Zek and Classic WoW. If you are red, you are dead. The only "Safe zones" should be the starting zones.

#4 --- Player Spell Resistance totally rebalanced. PvP doesn't work well when 95% of spells are resisted. This gives an extreme advantage to players with resist-passing spells, and certain melee classes.

#5 --- Time to kill needs to be decreased. PvP needs to be intense and fast paced, not "swing at each other for 18 minutes until someone drops to 10% and then runs to a zoneline".

#6 --- completely break the idea of zone logging. You should not be able to escape pvp by hitting a zoneline and logging off. This is idiotic and should have been addressed 20 years ago.

#7 ---- No GM intervention. Settle EVERYTHING with PvP. Everything goes. Training, mob stealing, etc.

#8 --- No item or coin loot. Losing stuff discourages people from engaging, more than it encourages people to hunt others. There is a psychological effect that explains this, but basically "Losing hurts twice as bad as winning feels good." You want the PvP to be fast, fun, with little negative impact other than a corpse run.

#9 --- Disable every element of /who , even for your own faction. (Will be completely abused, just like it is on Red) Even /anon doesn't help, because people can infer from your online numbers or your history where you are and what you might be doing. Get rid of it for any PvP server.

[Jibartik]

Hard to swallow pills: A new red server will fail because the red community will make it fail.

Good luck pink grapefruit but after today I'm a hard pass on red99

[zodium]

i hope it's so successful no one ever asks me to try red again

[Issar]

i hope it's so successful no one ever asks me to try red again

^

[Bondrake]

Green is out, which means it's time to get hyped for Rogean's true passion project: EQ pvp <333

It's time to roll all our red characters into blue and start the green experience with PVP ENABLED imo! Blue servers get old and bad after x many years, but this problem is so much worse on a pvp server. Server MUST reset every ~3ish years.

And I still say the absolute best thing for Project99 on the whole would be to merge blue into red and simply turn green pvp, but it doesn't seem like they're gonna go for this. Next best thing? Teams server. Bluebies love the teams idea; just ask them! And we really need lots of bluebies to sustain a healthy server population.

So what are your hopes for red 2.0??

Such a pathetic loser constantly making these threads. Nobody likes red and this will never happen. Very sad you cant let go. Hopefully they premaban you next.

[Baler]

My hope for red 2.0 IS red 2.0

[Chortles Snort|eS]

Ah yes, I can’t wait for another PVP server to be ruined with over enforcement by “muhhhhh server rules!!!” types

https://i.imgur.com/087D1Fa.gif

[Thomacles]

Such a pathetic loser constantly making these threads. Nobody likes red and this will never happen. Very sad you cant let go. Hopefully they premaban you next.


This. So much this. This cannot be upvoted enough. A truer statement has never been made.

[Gustoo]

Spoken like a guy who was not around at launch.

We all get that most of you guys were bluebird and want to talk smack in EQ and never have to back it up. Some of us would rather slay and be slain. Some of us came from other MMOs or role playing back grounds where non PVP just doesn't make sense in a game as sandbox as this.

I started rallos zek one day when the blue server my friend told me to start on was down. I made a caster for the first time just to mix it up and had my robe jacked before I killed my first yellow jacket.

All I could think was "woah..this is intense, I gotta make sure I'm not killed like that again." I noticed how the guy who killed me waited till I was really low health just about to kill the yellow jacket before he attacked. Smart.

The biggest thing is that i realized there was a lot more to the world than just yellow jackets. The people weren't just there to make killing monsters easier. I played for an hour or two before my server was up again and didn't come back to it for some time.

I was chilling in EC and some guy offered me like 2kpp on rallos for 300pp on e Marr.

I had never heard of cross server trading but it sounded like a bargain and I had little to lose so I did it. The guy gave me some pointers and thats when I got my first bit of friendly advice and really got moving on the best gaming experience I ever had.

Again we all know it isn't for everyone, but just like people who know eq think all other mmos are is panzy trash, people who lived red have a hard time going back to the safe life where everyone is a big assertive asshole in /tell and the entire server population is stuck with them running rampant with no recourse.

Despite killing each other people are actually nicer on red. Working together is even more important pvp enhances the gear selection process. It enhanced the friend selection process. It enhances the character building process. It enhances the way you must know and appreciate your class.

You don't have to like it but you will find that just about everyone who played ralllos tallon zallon and sullon for any reason would all prefer to be on a pvp server again and that's not just because it makes them feel like real men. We like easy pixels too, but we have a hard time caring about them when it's just for pride. The game itself is easy to beat with a few handfuls of players. Players are hard to beat. On blue I can run around with great success without bothering to use any useless buffs or clickies. On red I use a handful of obscure clicky items and every single buff I have access to as a cleric and I hit the streets absolutely stacked with everything I can to keep myself alive and any potential threat at bay.

I have to use my brain and strategize. I can't afk camp cyclopses all day every day from work.

[jacobi]

If Red 2.0 was a Teams (aligned via Evil, Good, Neutral race factions) PvP server, it would be glorious. I avoided Red in its current toxic incarnation, and mostly play on Blue, and I would definitely switch over to play a Teams Red 2.0.

Having a team of different races that have your back is much better way of curbing the toxicity, with camaraderie.

[walfreyydo]

Red's community was, without a shred of a doubt, THE most toxic group of people I have ever witnessed in a game.

P99's PVP scene does not seem worth many resources.

It was during live too, nothing new

[sentinel]

new red server sounds horrible

[walfreyydo]

I like your ideas but see some major flaws:


#1 --- 3 Factions, tied to race/religion. - this is more imbalanced than "teams" pvp was - problem is some teams not having access to critical classes (ie: bards, druids, shamans). This is the primary reason there was cross-teams guilds on Tallon Zek which really broke the server (Pandemonium, and others soon followed). Ultimate solution: Guild based teams

#3 --- No level restriction on PvP. Same as Sullon Zek and Classic WoW. If you are red, you are dead. The only "Safe zones" should be the starting zones. I like the idea of having a level restriction, so instead, flagging any OOR healers/buffers for PvP. It could work without level restriction, but now you have new players being griefed off the server

#4 --- Player Spell Resistance totally rebalanced. PvP doesn't work well when 95% of spells are resisted. This gives an extreme advantage to players with resist-passing spells, and certain melee classes. Yes, I like it but youll now have the issue of Melee's getting owned by casters (like on live). I think you are swinging the pendulum too far in favor of casters with this. Casters owned on live (unless melee's had ultra high end gear/resists)

#5 --- Time to kill needs to be decreased. PvP needs to be intense and fast paced, not "swing at each other for 18 minutes until someone drops to 10% and then runs to a zoneline". Agree

#6 --- completely break the idea of zone logging. You should not be able to escape pvp by hitting a zoneline and logging off. This is idiotic and should have been addressed 20 years ago. Agree

#7 ---- No GM intervention. Settle EVERYTHING with PvP. Everything goes. Training, mob stealing, etc. Disagree, intentional training was a hallmark of Sullon Zek but in my opinion it devolved into a grief fest. Play nice policy still needs to be enforced in certain situations IMO. How this is enforced can be a point of debate

#8 --- No item or coin loot. Losing stuff discourages people from engaging, more than it encourages people to hunt others. There is a psychological effect that explains this, but basically "Losing hurts twice as bad as winning feels good." You want the PvP to be fast, fun, with little negative impact other than a corpse run.Coin loot was fair, item loot was not (naked casters anyone?)

#9 --- Disable every element of /who , even for your own faction. (Will be completely abused, just like it is on Red) Even /anon doesn't help, because people can infer from your online numbers or your history where you are and what you might be doing. Get rid of it for any PvP server.Disagree strongly, you need to be able to see who is in zone - Anonymous works. I see no way how people can infer from your online numbers because /who is limited to like 40 people or whatever

[Nirgon]

Put guild war on green

It's needed for classic completion

We WILL use it

[Danger]

I've become a believer in nilbog's idea:

East (Red) VS West (Blue) hardcoded teams

https://i.imgur.com/wz7wpjZ.png

+/- 4 level restriction beginning at level 2 that perhaps widens the higher level you get, raid zones are FFA.

[Vexenu]

Teams does not make sense with level range PvP. There is no feeling of team cohesion or zone control if high level players cannot defend their lower level teammates. And this applies vice versa - there is no sense of extreme danger for trespassing into enemy territory if you only need to be afraid of enemies within a narrow level range. Unlimited level range PvP sounds like it would be nothing but a griefer fest, but it's actually no worse in regards to griefing than a fixed level range ruleset. For example, unlimited level range completely does away with the problem of heavily twinked/deleveled griefers.

[Danger]

Teams does not make sense with level range PvP. There is no feeling of team cohesion or zone control if high level players cannot defend their lower level teammates. And this applies vice versa - there is no sense of extreme danger for trespassing into enemy territory if you only need to be afraid of enemies within a narrow level range. Unlimited level range PvP sounds like it would be nothing but a griefer fest, but it's actually no worse in regards to griefing than a fixed level range ruleset. For example, unlimited level range completely does away with the problem of heavily twinked/deleveled griefers.

https://i.imgur.com/YjOxWn7.png

Logic is pristine. Won me over.

[Nirgon]

90% of box on team evil, with cross team alts to cheat

Where have I seen that before

Oh on live, and it had a better PVP community

Guilds are "teams", no wait. They're teams. Look how people bandwagon. At least with FFA you can readily switch around or come back and join anything. Once good team is wiped out, there's no joining any neutral or evil guilds.

[Izmael]

- ffa with no lvl restriction
- kunark but no velious
- no GM intervention
- allow training etc. Only prohibit MQ and such
- coin loot only
- no pvp exp loss

[Danger]

hardcode team, lock team selection by ip if possible, can't heal/buff etc other people from opposing teams. prevent "common tongue" communication across teams.

[kotton05]

People talking that red is more toxic have no clue. On PvE servers the toxicity is much more brutal since it’s all passive aggressive. Kill stealing and training etc... where as on red you police zones yourself and if someone acts up just send them to their bind point. Once that occurs you move on where as on blue/green the grudge is held forever....

[kotton05]

- ffa with no lvl restriction
- kunark but no velious
- no GM intervention
- allow training etc. Only prohibit MQ and such
- coin loot only
- no pvp exp loss

FFA in zones with raid mobs not all zones , trust me with this one... another thing I’d like to see is make no drop items tradable like that one server on live. Makes item loot much more interdasting

[Gustoo]

I've become a believer in nilbog's idea:

East (Red) VS West (Blue) hardcoded teams

https://i.imgur.com/wz7wpjZ.png

+/- 4 level restriction beginning at level 2 that perhaps widens the higher level you get, raid zones are FFA.

I feel like if we get a major server it will likely be a custom box similar to this.

I would only say that "widening" pvp level ranger is terrible. It just makes every level sub 60 even more shitter which is what hurts PVP the most.

The level range issue is fixed by making raid zones infinite level range so no OOR buffing or healing can happen and that is all that is needed.

Basically this ruleset is Ogre vs Iksar for racial superiority as the other race / class combos don't make as much difference.

It will be hard for people not to be min max race of their choice like high elf for enchanter, if they're on the west side. It seems really balanced and is the most well thought out non rallos zek pvp scheme I can think of.

Real battleground would be Guk and then Kunark.

I would be OK with this as long as we were promised a re roll in 4 years or whatever like green was. Teams usually ends up broken with only 1 good team and i am sure the same will be the case here.

Still its fun to see how different restrictions impact how the game plays out.

I know what team I would play on.

Hopefully never enables velious or maybe limited velious as some other smart guys have suggested.

[Nirgon]

Have fun coming up with a phonebook thick pile of custom rules for your server that will last shorter than red did

I'll be rolling an ogre

[Bardp1999]

PAGING ALL RED PLAYERS!!!!

Along with a brand NEW server, you will all be receiving fabulous prize packages as well. Please send P99 system admins your IP address for permanent bannin....for a FREE BOAT!

https://i.imgur.com/WlO9g32.jpg

[Vexenu]

There have been enough lessons learned from the four live PvP servers, Red, the various PvP emus and even from Blue to develop a custom PvP ruleset that would produce the most fun gameplay. It's just a matter of working through the various possibilities and deciding what particular rules and features they want. Given the thought that went into implementing the /List feature (which was a practical and elegant solution to a tricky problem) I have faith that Rogean, nilbog & Co. could come up with a very nice custom Teams PvP ruleset.

[Nirgon]

I did love SZs token system. The greater and lesser insignias etc. Summon corpse pots coming from them was pretty cool, along with the leaderboard.

I don't see people surviving for too long with FFA. 8 lvls range griefed most off red, combined with the xp loss on death.

The resist/hitbox code Haynar did is exemplary work and should be moved to Green for the best of the best fights. He also seemed to have AC working at the end, just need to rip out that custom DEX vs AGI part.

[Tyronius of Midnight]

Red's community was, without a shred of a doubt, THE most toxic group of people I have ever witnessed in a game.

P99's PVP scene does not seem worth many resources.

Glad to join you finally on green.

[Nirgon]

1 2 3 4

I declare a guild war

[Danger]

1 2 3 4

I declare a guild war

perhaps a /ready state?

honestly tho most people are too scared to accept duels much less a guild war.

[Gustoo]

Have fun coming up with a phonebook thick pile of custom rules for your server that will last shorter than red did

I'll be rolling an ogre

Hey man its not my server I am pretty strongly against custom stuff because it usually ends up being half assed garbage and a good ol rallos zek server with a decent launch, no corruption, no corrupt guild bans would be pure gold. Start with item loot so that I and other item loot fans can STFU for life if it is a trash server, which it won't be because item loot is the bomb.

I will roll permanent PVE if item loot is implemented and bites the dust. It will be sad but I don't see it getting more than 1 shot.

Worste case scenario for me is some bullshit 8 level pvp range custom shit WITH item loot because then item loot will be blamed for server failure (Which was already inevitable)

In that sense I am really glad they didn't do item loot on original broken ass trash can red because of all the stuff that has been fixed in 6 or whatever years.

[Raclen]

0 people would accept a guild war. The guild that wants to /guild war is the guild that can't get the mob or that can easily beat the other team in PvP. A /guildwar option would require a situation where both guilds thought it would be a 50/50 fight for it with blue rules or pvp and just wanted to hurry it up to avoid poop socking.

If you have ever played a PvP game in your life you would realize this never happens.

[Gustoo]

As much as I love and respect my red friends I agree that /guildwar never served a purpose and would not serve a purpose here.

Except if 2 guilds wanted to gear up for a guild war just for the spectacle.

[Jibartik]

The problem with PVP in everquest today is that people think that PVP is supposed to happen everytime you log in.

Classic everquest PVP is blue PVE with the added stress that you cannot let your guard down.

Modern EQpvp is some leaderboard BS loot box game where rooting nakeds is A LOL HURR DURR

Eq is a real world simulator, and p99 and VzTz red players think its a Purge simulator.

Discord, maybe. But other than that, EQ pvp just simply does not work anymore.

[Sear]

Hardcoded teams pls. If it's FFA again it will have the same problems it did the first time (which had the same problems RZ did on live).

Toxic red community is a given, but at least on a teams server there's a little more incentive for shitlords to work together against the other side.

[Danger]

if you wanna see toxic check out the atrocities being committed by the green community LOL

pvp players are angels

[Gustoo]

Here is what new red should be.

PVP server rallos rules, starts in vanilla

Does not add kunark unless population reaches certain level. Stays vanilla forever if pop stays weak. Its OK that casters win on vanilla, because they lose all other eras.

So on through the expansion timeline.

It was terrible when they launched velious on red when there was no population to play it. Total deathstroke for the server.

I'm pretty sad because theres a good chance I will never find the time to level a guy to 60 again. I really wish red didn't go so south.

[Danger]

So, Jib thinks a discord server where players are literally purged off the server works but sustained pvp don't work because it's a "purge simulator" and player vs player combat has a sense of competition i.e. leader board, when we have a whole achievement mechanic implemented into green.

brainlet analysis.

Teams brings a sense of community and zone ownership as well as built in alliances needed to sustain both the bleeding edge raiders and more casual players, potentially moreso than a pve server. If you're a high end gnome raider it behoves you to make sure those newbie gnomes in crushbone grow up big and strong and the ogre stay out of unrest. it's a compromise between the hardcore pvpers and people who want the added challenge and excitement of EQ pvp with today's more casual player. Most of us who were nuking scrubs on RZ have kids and wives now and the virtue of being say 35 and not 15. If you're a guildless nobody getting griefed at least you can get your fellow Dwarves (or whatever) to help you fend off the group of Humans (or whatever) outside of mistmoore.

[Jibartik]

I don't remember any problems on RZ on live. I recall it was flawless and perfect and the best ever.

Please fill me in, I'm pretty sure no rose colored glasses here.

Jibartik I dunno, I am pretty sure EQ pvp does work, but it really does need more balance between murderer players and non murderer players. Its really not all about the fighting.

If all the best chances of server success keep going to blue now green then red will always have a tough time.

Best time for relaunch of a big red server would be when green goes velious.

I agree,100% rallos zek waas great, but it was by no means PVP, it was PVE that also had PVP.

There was no such thing as a PvPer, there were PKs and people who were not PKs

Every single person on red99 literally griefed their own friends off the server.

I read an article about how the iOS app store screwed up by making apps "free" the result was users just assumed that 99c was too much to pay for something they suddenly now percived as "free"... I think that EQ pvp suffers from this same stigma. It has become accepted that just being a asshole is "playing everquest" with red players.

Maybe teams, but honestly red99 was as polarized as teams could ever be. If you wanted to join the other guild, you had to literally insult your former friends and talk shit on them constantly with the new guild.

Its really just the environment than the games fault IMO. I dont think it's possible to fix it without heavy moderation, and just kicking players who have that VZTZ attitude towards pvp off the server back to rise of zek.

[Sporkotron]

I don't remember any problems on RZ on live. I recall it was flawless and perfect and the best ever.

Please fill me in, I'm pretty sure no rose colored glasses here.

Jibartik I dunno, I am pretty sure EQ pvp does work, but it really does need more balance between murderer players and non murderer players. Its really not all about the fighting.

If all the best chances of server success keep going to blue now green then red will always have a tough time.

Best time for relaunch of a big red server would be when green goes velious or after its velious for a while. Its hard to imagine pulling anyone away from the current progression for a full red timeline / era server.

But I dunno, 2600 pop for green impressed me. Maybe there is 1000 people who would play red which would be enough. Teams is worth trying, or discord. Who has the time for discord though. Even on live that was beaten fast and then the game was basically done. It was bad ass though.

I dunno I am now in the camp where I just don't care what they do as long as they give red a fresh start.

What incentive does a non murderer have to play on a PVP. Seems like the only benefit red has is you can grief people more directly and as such only people focused on griefing others choose to play it.

you’re pretty much asking for non pvpers to play so that it wont just be the normal pvp psychos running around murdering people. while ignoring that the normal pvp psycho are exactly why nobody plays on red.

red will never work because the people who want red to be successful are also the people who are going to grief everyone off the server. that’s who pvpers are, that’s what they do.

[Gustoo]

Maybs.

I think a full rallos replica that is vanilla locked until server pop exceeds some number (after x quantity of days)

And allow server cross trading through official verified means. That way people don't feel like their money is stuck on bad investment. Red had tons more activity when server cross trading was allowed. When I was buying my manastone I found a dude who wanted blue plat for it. I had to dust off my old blue EC tunnel boots and hustle it up.

We all want our servers to be permanent and permanently good. I think staff has surprises in store to make blue worthwhile even today, though of the 3 I can see least reason to play it.

The point is to give people a reason to try PVP. We all know that only like 1/10 pop was ever pvp enabled in live. So we actually did pretty good ratio wise red to blue during the better times of red.

Maybe after green runs its course people will be ready for eq +

[Gustoo]

What incentive does a non murderer have to play on a PVP. Seems like the only benefit red has is you can grief people more directly and as such only people focused on griefing others choose to play it.

you’re pretty much asking for non pvpers to play so that it wont just be the normal pvp psychos running around murdering people. while ignoring that the normal pvp psycho are exactly why nobody plays on red.

red will never work because the people who want red to be successful are also the people who are going to grief everyone off the server. that’s who pvpers are, that’s what they do.

That isn't the case. I just like being able to deal with people and have people be nice to me and be friendly instead of total dickwads because they know they have a camp and can tell me to eat dirt, or tell me and a whole group to eat dirt. On blue you had cash camps permanently camped by people who were all super super super mean. On red these guys actually had to act like human beings to minimize the disruptions that happened to their cash camps.

Most importantly the game is endlessly deeper when PVP is a consideration. What items you wear how you buff yourself the clickies you carry and manage, what class you're playing and where you go.

On blue you just roll up and kill some mobs and nothing matters except trying to find a sick cash camp.

[walfreyydo]

Teams does not make sense with level range PvP. There is no feeling of team cohesion or zone control if high level players cannot defend their lower level teammates. And this applies vice versa - there is no sense of extreme danger for trespassing into enemy territory if you only need to be afraid of enemies within a narrow level range. Unlimited level range PvP sounds like it would be nothing but a griefer fest, but it's actually no worse in regards to griefing than a fixed level range ruleset. For example, unlimited level range completely does away with the problem of heavily twinked/deleveled griefers.

This is a very convincing perspective.

[Gustoo]

Just imagine living in a world where who is in a zone with you actually matters.

Basically the game is to easy without it. Too many mechanics are insignificant. Thats why its hard for people to go back. You get in game and you love the game but the more time you spend the more you realize you're slaughtering 20 year old AI to make yourself stronger in order to fight other 20 year old AI in order to? have better pixels on your character.

Its just not enough. I'm a cleric. I don't kill people. I prefer to live in a world where I can be killed and where I have to be vigilant. Its not just harder, its better. Its more rewarding and there is more to do and more to care about, more items that matter. Its a better game.

[Gustoo]

This is a very convincing perspective.

It isn't valid because it further trivializes the low levels. It means level 1-59 is garbage can and level 60 is where you become an actual character and begin to play the game. It ruins like 90% of the game content which is where a lot of people spend their time.

Level 60's spend zero time in level 1-50 zones because they are busy killing high level targets. NO ONE is going to protect noobs from any level 60 that cruises through butcher block slaughtering dwarfs. By the time someone leaves their raid to try to fight that dude, he has already gated after killing every single noob in the zone.

Only good thing is it adds value to ranger for finding and destroying all of the noobs. Gotta have a ranger for the slaughter.

Basically a level 60 coming through would be like dying to a kill streak airstrike in call of duty where you just get killed and then have to go find your body and its just an inconvenience that you have to deal with because you're not a real character yet because you aren't yet level 60.

[Danger]

Imho Vex's analysis more well thought our than gustoos on this issue

[Gustoo]

unlimited level range does this as stated by Vex and I agree

1. It nerfs low level twinks (GOOD THING)
2. Its nerfs low level game play (BAD THING)

To me #2 outweighs #1

I really like low level game play. Most content in vanilla is low level. I do not want to have to rush to maximum level so that I can be a real man. I like that there are different level ranges where different classes are more or less powerful than one another. With unlimited PVP range, none of that matters.

To me that is a loss. The game ends up being STACKED at level 60 no matter what. Everyone wants to kill the dragons. This negates the low level PK griefer even with a normal pvp range.

What you end up doing is destroying 1 gameplay element for basically no benefit.

[Jimjam]

I remember on SZ i had a sk in warrens. Occasionally an apache helicopter would just fly in and gatling gun me to death and that was play time over for the day unless i wanted to be griefed on a string of CRs.

[Gustoo]

I will concede that on a piece of shit non item loot server, you might as well have fully unlimited pvp, with teams since low level PVP without item loot is complete garbage anyways.

[Gustoo]

I remember on SZ i had a sk in warrens. Occasionally an apache helichopter would just fly in and gatling gun me to death and that was play time over for the day unless i wanted to be griefed on a string of CRs.

lol good true story pretty cool.

[Gustoo]

Thanks Danger and Vex for this exciting discussion. Vex's analysis is really solid and makes me feel strongly that

1. On a grade B server without item loot, there should be no level range, and should be teams (because pvp is meaningless at low levels vs twinks you cannot loot, it exists only for grief)
2. On a grade A server, it is rallos zek rules because fighting at low level and hoping to get loot is really fun, even if you would be better off at a cash camp.

[astuce999]

In case anyone doesn't know this is just yet another troll thread; if there was any hope/excitement/need for a Red99 2.0, they would post it in their own forum.

Stop feeding the trolls.

(I will too, starting *now*)

Astuce

[walfreyydo]

The problem with PVP in everquest today is that people think that PVP is supposed to happen everytime you log in.

Classic everquest PVP is blue PVE with the added stress that you cannot let your guard down.

Modern EQpvp is some leaderboard BS loot box game where rooting nakeds is A LOL HURR DURR

Eq is a real world simulator, and p99 and VzTz red players think its a Purge simulator.

Discord, maybe. But other than that, EQ pvp just simply does not work anymore.

This. Classic PvP was PvE with constant paranoia and it was awesome (if somewhat imbalanced). It pushed even more cooperation as people tended to stick together as groups could usually overcome most of the PVP imbalance. EQ PvP was mostly gear based, but if you had a group of friends you could overcome that easily.

[Nirgon]

In case anyone doesn't know this is just yet another troll thread; if there was any hope/excitement/need for a Red99 2.0, they would post it in their own forum.

Stop feeding the trolls.

(I will too, starting *now*)

Astuce

No one should have listened to (almost) anyone in that section as far as the direction of that server or rushing it's launch.

They wanted a vztz repeat and the results speak for themselves.

[walfreyydo]

Level 60's spend zero time in level 1-50 zones because they are busy killing high level targets. NO ONE is going to protect noobs from any level 60 that cruises through butcher block slaughtering dwarfs. By the time someone leaves their raid to try to fight that dude, he has already gated after killing every single noob in the zone.

If you like PVP and are a competitive person you will. Thats the point of a PvP server, if all you care about is raiding and PvE content then blue/green is where you should play. People who enjoy PvP are competitive people by nature, and this is the point.

However, you do have a point. If a level 60 wants to grief say, Crushbone, then there isnt much players can do except hope/call in another level 60 (or group of 60s). Perhaps a "Local Defense" type channel is needed? I think many people would come to help if there was a server-wide race/team based chat channel for calling in reinforcements when needed. I think this would be a great solution to the issue you bring up.

Case in point: when I played WoW, I would basically sit and watch the Local Defense channel because I WANTED to PvP and specifically world-pvp, so i dont really buy the argument that no one will come because they are too busy raiding.

[Gustoo]

They would come help eventually. It would be cool. There would be noob slaughter vs noob slaughter but its not so bad. They would also come through and buff their noobs to keep their side strong, so it would balance out.

I am totally on board. If there is no item loot, it might as well be full open pvp between teams. Its the only other thing that mitigates the low level twink player killer besides item loot (and level reqs on thurg skyshrine and kael armor, epics and such)

It completely destroys a wonderful dynamic of the PVP game, but that dynamic only properly exists with item loot, which a lot of people are afraid of.

The ideal server has item loot with all of its challenges because twink vs twink battle is really fun.

The full open makes a lot of sense for anything that isn't item loot. I am in agreement.

P.S. I am rolling blue on nilbogs map.

[Jibartik]

TBH red is easier than blue because red is about hanging out with as many people as you can who will protect you and kill stuff for you.

Blue is about trying to beat difficult content on your own or with as little numbers as possible.

There is a reason every guild that is zerg wins on red until the leaders /q and then the group of "rebels" becomes the next zerg.

[Vexenu]

I think people would be surprised how quick high level teammates would be to protect their lower level allies. I mean, beyond the fact that it's simply fun in itself to PvP and gives higher level players something to do outside of raids, there's also a very practical purpose: because those lower level players are the future members of your high level guilds. They are your feeder system. You NEED to protect them and keep them from being griefed off the server because they represent an asset that appreciates over time. So controlling leveling zones has very real strategic value for teams and is something they need to prioritize as much as acquiring gear. This is the entire concept of zone control and adds a huge layer of richness and complexity to EQ that is only possible with unrestricted Teams PvP.

As an example of how this actually plays out: back in the day on SZ Velious was mostly controlled by the Neutral (Newt) team. So most Newts would do their 30+ leveling there. And because it was safely nestled in EW and fairly isolated, Crystal Caverns was the primary Newt leveling dungeon for 40-50. I played an Iksar (Evil team) Monk on SZ, but I knew CC like the back of my hand from having leveled there extensively on my old server. So I used to solo PvP there a lot and could basically shut the zone down at will by dropping trains on groups and picking people off in the chaos. But I could not get away with this for long, because as soon as word spread that I was there, the Newts would call for backup and a handful of skilled 50+ Newt PvPers would show up to run me off (I was level 45-50 at the time). This was basically standard practice for any zone that a team owned: if you were on an opposing team you could not expect to safely hang out in an enemy zone for long without a fight. And if you were outleveled and outnumbered by the enemy and it was not a fair fight, so be it - that's what you get for invading enemy territory.

[Gustoo]

Game is easy. Reds dead man.

[Danger]

Vexenu, I've really enjoyed your input to this thread, if you had to develop the mechanics for a new pvp server what would you suggest to the staff? How would you divvy up teams and so on, what loot mechanic (if any)

[Gustoo]

I think people would be surprised how quick high level teammates would be to protect their lower level allies. I mean, beyond the fact that it's simply fun in itself to PvP and gives higher level players something to do outside of raids, there's also a very practical purpose: because those lower level players are the future members of your high level guilds. They are your feeder system. You NEED to protect them and keep them from being griefed off the server because they represent an asset that appreciates over time. So controlling leveling zones has very real strategic value for teams and is something they need to prioritize as much as acquiring gear. This is the entire concept of zone control and adds a huge layer of richness and complexity to EQ that is only possible with unrestricted Teams PvP.

As an example of how this actually plays out: back in the day on SZ Velious was mostly controlled by the Neutral (Newt) team. So most Newts would do their 30+ leveling there. And because it was safely nestled in EW and fairly isolated, Crystal Caverns was the primary Newt leveling dungeon for 40-50. I played an Iksar (Evil team) Monk on SZ, but I knew CC like the back of my hand from having leveled there extensively on my old server. So I used to solo PvP there a lot and could basically shut the zone down at will by dropping trains on groups and picking people off in the chaos. But I could not get away with this for long, because as soon as word spread that I was there, the Newts would call for backup and a handful of skilled 50+ Newt PvPers would show up to run me off (I was level 45-50 at the time). This was basically standard practice for any zone that a team owned: if you were on an opposing team you could not expect to safely hang out in an enemy zone for long without a fight. And if you were outleveled and outnumbered by the enemy and it was not a fair fight, so be it - that's what you get for invading enemy territory.

Yeah confirmed this is better than no item loot custom red.

Custom teams sullon or rallos plx

[Jimjam]

I think people would be surprised how quick high level teammates would be to protect their lower level allies. I mean, beyond the fact that it's simply fun in itself to PvP and gives higher level players something to do outside of raids, there's also a very practical purpose: because those lower level players are the future members of your high level guilds. They are your feeder system. You NEED to protect them and keep them from being griefed off the server because they represent an asset that appreciates over time. So controlling leveling zones has very real strategic value for teams and is something they need to prioritize as much as acquiring gear. This is the entire concept of zone control and adds a huge layer of richness and complexity to EQ that is only possible with unrestricted Teams PvP.

As an example of how this actually plays out: back in the day on SZ Velious was mostly controlled by the Neutral (Newt) team. So most Newts would do their 30+ leveling there. And because it was safely nestled in EW and fairly isolated, Crystal Caverns was the primary Newt leveling dungeon for 40-50. I played an Iksar (Evil team) Monk on SZ, but I knew CC like the back of my hand from having leveled there extensively on my old server. So I used to solo PvP there a lot and could basically shut the zone down at will by dropping trains on groups and picking people off in the chaos. But I could not get away with this for long, because as soon as word spread that I was there, the Newts would call for backup and a handful of skilled 50+ Newt PvPers would show up to run me off (I was level 45-50 at the time). This was basically standard practice for any zone that a team owned: if you were on an opposing team you could not expect to safely hang out in an enemy zone for long without a fight. And if you were outleveled and outnumbered by the enemy and it was not a fair fight, so be it - that's what you get for invading enemy territory.

Thats not useful for new or unestablished players as everyone hides behind /anon so you have no way to identify the cavalry you could call in.

The 'local defense' channel sounds like it could help that a little.

[Gustoo]

Definitely would be a team channel. Should be in game so that people don't have to use non client chats to get the job done.

[Sear]

Maybe teams, but honestly red99 was as polarized as teams could ever be. If you wanted to join the other guild, you had to literally insult your former friends and talk shit on them constantly with the new guild.


I'm sure this is true, but it's nice for casual players to have a team right from level 1 instead of rolling unguilded on a top-heavy server.

Teams based on race/religion minimizes the trend of one guild monopolizing the server and players not fighting eachother while leveling up. That was never much of an issue on the teams servers. You had a team, and you had your zones to defend. Who you attack and don't attack was built-in to the ruleset.

The inevitable problem with any P99 red server (even a teams one) is going to be population. It's realistically not going to support anything but PvP over raid targets at level 50, and for most of us who played on live we aren't going to get the 1-49 experience that we remembered.

Before VZTZ bit the dust I was messing with a custom server that only had the Faydwer continent but still had a full range of PvE content. The idea was to solve the population issue by condensing the # of zones. You can't have these zones with 0-5 players in them. It's a radically different experience than what was "classic", and imo there's no real point to ever releasing another PvP server with Kunark or Velious enabled. Just having the vanilla zone real estate is already pushing it into ghost town territory.

[Old_PVP]

I've become a believer in nilbog's idea:

East (Red) VS West (Blue) hardcoded teams

https://i.imgur.com/wz7wpjZ.png

+/- 4 level restriction beginning at level 2 that perhaps widens the higher level you get, raid zones are FFA.


I like this... seems pretty damn balanced too. Disable cross-team communication / trade and enable no level restrictions though. It would be perfect. Basically WoW but an EQWoW.

[Jibartik]

I love mmo mechanics, I love pvp, I love the idea of an open world mmo pvp game but each one suffers from the exact same problems.

Personally, I think this is the best outlet for that type of gameplay out right now: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GKbXcsa5Otk

Id play eq pvp if it was like this game. Maybe rise of zek is good. I think sounds like the best EQ pvp but I have not much interest in setting it up to try. But sounds cool to me.

Give me a server that resets every 24 hours, has 5000% exp bonus, no level ranges, one by one zones fill with the plague causing damage (like those Battle Royalle games) and a set up a leaderboard and Id be logging in every night.

[Sear]

Was that actually a Nilbog idea? Not sure about the territory balance but the map still gave my neckbeard a boner.

[Gustoo]

Totally was. The pvp runs deep in the mines of moria or whatever.

Sear I agree about reduce physical geography for eq pvp. Kunark definitely means "wheres all the peeps'

Thats why its fun to think what it would take to get some actual population numbers over here.

[Gustoo]

Also there are people that play WOW pvp and think they are real masochists and its possible to taunt them into this game. Teams is the only way that wow guys will be able to play so stealing that population back maybe worth trying to run teams.

[Vexenu]

Vexenu, I've really enjoyed your input to this thread, if you had to develop the mechanics for a new pvp server what would you suggest to the staff? How would you divvy up teams and so on, what loot mechanic (if any)

This is something I've theorycrafted a lot over the years. I think Sullon Zek's ruleset should be used as the starting point, with three hardcoded teams (no cross-teaming) and unrestricted level range PvP. I would also allow training as a tactic. Basically encourage a very laissez faire approach by the GMs: anything goes besides hacking, boxing, etc... It should be a feeling of anything goes total war between the teams. This also makes the server much easier to police by the GMs and discourages favoritism and rule lawyering. Three teams is better than two because it creates a much more chaotic and unpredictable atmosphere. But one of the big problems with SZ was that the Evil team enjoyed too many advantages over the Good and Neutral teams. They not only had better races, but they had the entire continent of Kunark as their home turf. So while the Goods and Neutrals were fighting each other constantly to level on Antonica, Odus and Faydwer, Evils could mostly level in peace on Kunark. So SZ played out with the Evil team snowballing the early leveling advantage Kunark provided into dominance for most of the server's life. So you'd need factors in place to prevent that from repeating itself.

Another consideration is that you really want to encourage zone control by each team, and so grouping teams geographically makes a lot of sense. This allows each team to have relatively safe low and mid-level zones to level in and naturally groups teams together to better defend against enemy incursions into their territory.

A third consideration is that each team needs to have access to each class if they are going to be equally viable for raiding. It's just not fair to deny a team Monks or Bards or Shaman and expect that endgame-focused players would bother to roll there knowing they would be screwed when it came to raiding.

All that being the case, I would divvy the teams up in the guise of a Norrathian civil war, with three factions fighting each other, which are:

Qeynos Team
- Humans
- Barbarians
- Erudites
- Half-Elves

This team would naturally control all of Odus and the area around Qeynos, extending from Halas through the Karanas and into Highpass Hold.

The Dark Team
- Ogres
- Trolls
- Dark Elves
- Iksar
- Traitor Humans

The Dark Team would naturally control all of Southern Antonica, from Grobb/Oggok to Lavastorm, including Freeport where the Traitor Humans would start.

The Shortie Team
- Dwarves
- Gnomes
- Wood Elves
- High Elves
- Halflings
- Traitor Barbarians
- Traitor Humans

The shorties would control all of Faydwer.

So you basically have a race war server with humans/Barbs as the wild card being able to defect to any team. This is necessary in order to give the Dark team access to Monks, Bards, Druids, Rangers and Paladins (mostly the first two) and the shortie team access to Monks, Shaman, Necros and Shadowknights (mostly the first two). The Qeynos team would already have access to all classes.

You would need to make some minor modifications for this ruleset to be viable. Though unclassic, I think these changes are minor enough and justifiable enough in the lore given the context of a Norrathian civil war disrupting the normal order of things and creating refugees:

1) Halflings allowed to start in Kelethin.
2) Shortie Humans and Barbs allowed to start in Kelethin.
3) Monk and Shaman trainers placed in Kelethin.
4) Necro and SK trainers placed near the chessboard in BB.

The end result is that each team would have access to every class and would have natural zone control over large contiguous areas of Norrath. You also preserve a degree of RP in that you have teams that make sense within the context of EQ lore. Humans (and the odd Barb Shaman) as wildcards make sense, with the other races being more locked in to their faction alignments/racial loyalties.

Loot mechanics: Item loot has its advantages (the emphasis on NO DROP gear adds a neat layer of complexity to the game) but overall it's just too much of a turn off for most players to stomach. I would instead suggest full coin loot and 50% XP loss for a death to a player within 5 levels of you. If you die to a player who cons red to you (>5 levels higher) you lose no XP and they are unable to loot anything from you. They can kill you but you don't lose anything. Loot and scoot should be up to the teams themselves to grant and police. A respected foe might be granted safe passage. A known shithead/griefer might get corpse camped for days. No guarantees. Corpse camping should be a legal tactic/option.

Kunark and Velious:
The expansions need to be treated judiciously, because they both offer challenges for PvP balance on a Teams server. Kunark is a problem because it is a natural safe haven for the Dark team. And Velious is a huge problem because high-end Velious gear basically destroys PvP balance by making melee classes unkillable. So the first team to get a bunch of NToV geared melees will steamroll everyone else. That being the case, I would propose the following:

1) Kunark release must be delayed at least 6 months, or even a full year as per the classic timeline. This would probably be enough to prevent the Dark team from completely dominating the continent, because by the time it comes out the other teams will have enough high level players to make successful incursions into Kunark.

2) Velious must be released in two stages: stage 1 would allow access to all of IC, EW and GD, as well as Thurgadin and Kael (minus AoW/Statue). This gives teams access to low-end Velious raid targets and Thurg armor. This stage would probably represent the ideal point of class balance for EQ PvP, and the server could easily be stopped here indefinitely. But it should pause at this stage for at least six months to a year. This would allow each team time to be competitive for acquiring a baseline of Velious gear. Then you could release stage 2 of Velious and open up the high-end ToV loots, which would start to be the end of the good PvP on the server but players would probably demand after getting bored of being stuck in stage 1.

Team balance: The Devs could promote team balance by giving the weakest team a standing 20% XP bonus. Team balance would be determined by a simple function of population and the teamwide K/D ratio and could be calculated on a weekly basis.

Random balance considerations:
- SoulFire is Paladin-only
- Amulet of Necropotence is made NO DROP
- OT hammer is removed from game, or a comparable FV hammer is added via a similar quest in FV. Necessary to prevent Dark team from having a big mobilization advantage in Kunark/Velious era.

[Hideousclaw]

Move to PvP Server Chat. File under: Unlikely.

[Gustoo]

Sounds fun. I think the simple 2 team setup by nilbog is worth considering as it allows for balance without as much complexity. It also means that 2nd and 3rd place don't duke it out while 1st place dominates which usually happens.

Everyone likes their home pvp server rules the best.

I don't want item loot to show up on anything but a full rallos server because I don't want it to be blamed for downfall of server.

[pink grapefruit]

everyone posted so much while i was at work. gotta catch up on posts :PI've become a believer in nilbog's idea:

East (Red) VS West (Blue) hardcoded teams

https://i.imgur.com/wz7wpjZ.png

the reason i dislike this is that it doesn't make any sense at all within eq lore, and a healthy pvp server should be equal parts roleplay, positive community, and team balance.

i say do the sz teams, but bend the rules just a *little bit* to give each team every class. sol ro necros, and the like.

[Old_PVP]

everyone posted so much while i was at work. gotta catch up on posts :P

the reason i dislike this is that it doesn't make any sense at all within eq lore, and a healthy pvp server should be equal parts roleplay, positive community, and team balance.

i say do the sz teams, but bend the rules just a *little bit* to give each team every class. sol ro necros, and the like.

Eh...you could bend the LORE a little bit to make sense of it.

- Trolls and Ogres are at odds with each other in EQ lore, correct? The shadowknight guilds hate each other.

- Dwarves and Gnomes are already cousins, that's easy. Dwarves have long standing grudges with Ogres in EQ Lore.

- Dark Elves are already the natural enemy of all other elves, per Innoruuk.

- Erudites thirst for knowledge, and study all schools of magic. Necromancy originated with Dark Elves / Neriak? That's where Miragul went to learn it. Ogres used to be the most powerful race before they were struck down by the gods. Perhaps Erudites seek to discover some of that hidden knowledge?

- Halflings are sneaky, thieving little bastards and have forward bases in Nektulos forest already... not as an invasion, but to help their sneaky, thieving dark elven brethren.

- The insanely evil iksar are accepting this alliance for now with ulterior motives to enslave the world including their own team just as they were once enslaved.


I could go on... but I won't.

Just make it simple. Make it like WoW. People understand the simple 2 team setup.

[Nirgon]

Sounds fun. I think the simple 2 team setup by nilbog is worth considering as it allows for balance without as much complexity. It also means that 2nd and 3rd place don't duke it out while 1st place dominates which usually happens.

Everyone likes their home pvp server rules the best.

I don't want item loot to show up on anything but a full rallos server because I don't want it to be blamed for downfall of server.

They said item loot would kill red. Red didn't have item loot. Maybe that's not the problem.

[Gustoo]

Yeahp red killed itself and probably will again so I agree on making server that is actually fun for low level players.

#1 rallos zek
#2 2 team sullon

[Dulu]

I like your ideas but see some major flaws:

Copy/Posting this from a thread of mine from years ago. This addresses the "Don't have X class" argument. 3 factions, and each faction would get 1 unique class. There would be good necromancers, evil druids, etc. It works with the lore.

Dulu's Team 1999 Server Ruleset:


3 Factions, similar to good/neutral/evil - but given different lore-oriented names. No one considers themself "evil". Even the most generic fantasy villians think what they are doing is for some greater purpose. Your faction is decided by your deity, with the exception of Paladins/Rangers/Shadow Knights. (These classes are tied to one of the factions)


"Good Faction" (Primarily High Elves, Wood Elves, Barbarians, Good Erudites, 1/3rd of Humans, 1/3rd of Half Elves.. All Paladins) Players of this faction will have Green names displayed at all times. Human Necromancers would have the option to worship Rodcet Nife, the prime healer, allowing them to play on the good faction. "They study the art of necromancy for a good cause!"

Mithaniel Marr
Erollisi Marr
Rodcet Nife
Tunare
Quellios



"Neutral Faction" (Mainly Dwarves, Gnomes, Halflings, 1/3rd of humans, 1/3rd of half elves, Barbarian Shamans who select The Tribunal as their deity.. All Rangers) Players of this faction will have blue names displayed at all times. Dwarves who select Paladin will start in the city of Felwithe, and be on the good faction. Gnomes who select Shadow Knight will start in the city of Freeport, and be on the "evil faction".

Brell Serelis
Bristlebane
Karana
Solusek Ro
Tribunal
Prexus
Nameless
Veeshan


"Evil Faction" (Mainly Dark Elves, Trolls, Ogres, Iksar, Evil Erudites (Paineeel), 1/3rd of Humans and Half Elves, some Barbarians, some Gnomes.. All Shadowknights) Players of this faction will have orange names at all times. Note: Human and Half-Elf Druids will be allowed to worship Terris-Thule or Rallos Zek, as an option.. allowing them to play on the 'Evil' faction.


Bertox
Cazic-Thule
Innoruuk
Rallos Zek
Terris Thule







Each faction, would get one faction unique class. Rangers for Neutrals, Paladins for Good, and Shadow Knights for Evil. All other classes would be playable by every faction. This includes Necromancers. The three classes I've chosen are powerful, yet I feel are not essential to any sort of encounter.


Starting cities would be only loosely racially tied. Barbarians will tend to start in Halas, but if they have chosen Evil (A barbarian Warrior decides to worship Rallos Zek), they will start in an evil city. Oggok for example would work perfectly.

Humans and Half Elves, it gets a little trickier. I think making Freeport the 'Evil' Human city, Qeynos the 'Neutral' city, and Kelethin the starting point for good humans and half elves makes the most sense.


Only COIN would be lootable. No XP loss. No item loot.


Language barriers will be enforced. There will be no common tongue between the factions.

No buffs or heals of any kind will go across factions.

No trading across factions.

Raid zones MUST be FFA PvP.

/who must be disabled.


It will be impossible for 'Good' players to raise faction in 'Evil' or 'Neutral' cities, and vice versa. This is to prevent possible griefing near cities, and to encourage the realm wars.



Some sort of technology to stop players from 'Plugging' would be ideal. 'Plugging' = running and zoning, and disconnecting while zoning, resulting in your character disappearing until you log back on, possibly hours or days later.

[Jibartik]

Looks cool to me I always wanted to play EQ with a green name tag.

I like how it would bring the gods that are nothing more than some lore, to the forefront of the game and I like that you implied colored nameplates because that'd be super easy to identify the other teams.

And I think it'd be really cool to see the class combo's people chose and the group makeups in that setup.

[FungusTrooper]

Copy/Posting this from a thread of mine from years ago. This addresses the "Don't have X class" argument. 3 factions, and each faction would get 1 unique class. There would be good necromancers, evil druids, etc. It works with the lore.

I hate PVP but I admit, even I'd be inspired to try this. This is probably as close to "lots of people actually roleplaying" that I'll ever find in an MMO.

[Vexenu]

Major weakness of that ruleset is similar to SZ, in that Good and Neutral teams are screwed over by their close geography and will be fighting tooth and nail all the time while Evils are more isolated to safely level. And that's not even factoring in Kunark for Evils. This is why it's so important to separate the teams geographically like I suggested. Also if the server launched in classic you would need a way for Evil team to have Monks. Warlike Rallos Zek worshipping Monks seems reasonable in that scenario.

[FungusTrooper]

Major weakness of that ruleset is similar to SZ, in that Good and Neutral teams are screwed over by their close geography and will be fighting tooth and nail all the time while Evils are more isolated to safely level. And that's not even factoring in Kunark for Evils. This is why it's so important to separate the teams geographically like I suggested. Also if the server launched in classic you would need a way for Evil team to have Monks. Warlike Rallos Zek worshipping Monks seems reasonable in that scenario.

Yeah, I'm sure it'd be more successful like this, but I'z nevah gonna teem up wif no weak goodie racez!

[pink grapefruit]

what if the good/neut teams were softcoded, and could group together but not with evil team?

[Jibartik]

What if like all things evil 2/3rds had to ally up to protect us from it in a world war. :o

[Danger]

Dulu lost me at gnome shadow knights, custom worshipable deities not currently in game (Terris thule) but most importantly only one faction has access to windstriker rangers which is just GG in team pvp.

I mean I love paladins, they're my favorite class, but windstriker+bard is a pvp gamechanger.

Not sold on removing /who versus letting people just use anom or roleplay

Moditifed nilbogs east vs west still making the most sense and is most balanced imho

[Jibartik]

Alright this one checks all the boxes
[x] 3 balanced teams
[x] danger wont play

[Jimjam]

Iksar should just have their own team. Everyone hates them, they hate everyone.

[Danger]

Alright this one checks all the boxes
[x] 3 balanced teams
[x] danger wont play

as a man who can't handle forum banter, then went on a anti pvp posting spree due to it, i promise you that you'll get griefed off any future pvp box.

https://i.imgur.com/MdsAyQr.png

the biggest cringe of all.

this is why we need teams, so teams can protect their more tender members such as Jibartik.

[walfreyydo]

This is something I've theorycrafted a lot over the years. I think Sullon Zek's ruleset should be used as the starting point, with three hardcoded teams (no cross-teaming) and unrestricted level range PvP. I would also allow training as a tactic. Basically encourage a very laissez faire approach by the GMs: anything goes besides hacking, boxing, etc... It should be a feeling of anything goes total war between the teams. This also makes the server much easier to police by the GMs and discourages favoritism and rule lawyering. Three teams is better than two because it creates a much more chaotic and unpredictable atmosphere. But one of the big problems with SZ was that the Evil team enjoyed too many advantages over the Good and Neutral teams. They not only had better races, but they had the entire continent of Kunark as their home turf. So while the Goods and Neutrals were fighting each other constantly to level on Antonica, Odus and Faydwer, Evils could mostly level in peace on Kunark. So SZ played out with the Evil team snowballing the early leveling advantage Kunark provided into dominance for most of the server's life. So you'd need factors in place to prevent that from repeating itself.

Another consideration is that you really want to encourage zone control by each team, and so grouping teams geographically makes a lot of sense. This allows each team to have relatively safe low and mid-level zones to level in and naturally groups teams together to better defend against enemy incursions into their territory.

A third consideration is that each team needs to have access to each class if they are going to be equally viable for raiding. It's just not fair to deny a team Monks or Bards or Shaman and expect that endgame-focused players would bother to roll there knowing they would be screwed when it came to raiding.

All that being the case, I would divvy the teams up in the guise of a Norrathian civil war, with three factions fighting each other, which are:

Qeynos Team
- Humans
- Barbarians
- Erudites
- Half-Elves

This team would naturally control all of Odus and the area around Qeynos, extending from Halas through the Karanas and into Highpass Hold.

The Dark Team
- Ogres
- Trolls
- Dark Elves
- Iksar
- Traitor Humans

The Dark Team would naturally control all of Southern Antonica, from Grobb/Oggok to Lavastorm, including Freeport where the Traitor Humans would start.

The Shortie Team
- Dwarves
- Gnomes
- Wood Elves
- High Elves
- Halflings
- Traitor Barbarians
- Traitor Humans

The shorties would control all of Faydwer.

So you basically have a race war server with humans/Barbs as the wild card being able to defect to any team. This is necessary in order to give the Dark team access to Monks, Bards, Druids, Rangers and Paladins (mostly the first two) and the shortie team access to Monks, Shaman, Necros and Shadowknights (mostly the first two). The Qeynos team would already have access to all classes.

You would need to make some minor modifications for this ruleset to be viable. Though unclassic, I think these changes are minor enough and justifiable enough in the lore given the context of a Norrathian civil war disrupting the normal order of things and creating refugees:

1) Halflings allowed to start in Kelethin.
2) Shortie Humans and Barbs allowed to start in Kelethin.
3) Monk and Shaman trainers placed in Kelethin.
4) Necro and SK trainers placed near the chessboard in BB.

The end result is that each team would have access to every class and would have natural zone control over large contiguous areas of Norrath. You also preserve a degree of RP in that you have teams that make sense within the context of EQ lore. Humans (and the odd Barb Shaman) as wildcards make sense, with the other races being more locked in to their faction alignments/racial loyalties.

Loot mechanics: Item loot has its advantages (the emphasis on NO DROP gear adds a neat layer of complexity to the game) but overall it's just too much of a turn off for most players to stomach. I would instead suggest full coin loot and 50% XP loss for a death to a player within 5 levels of you. If you die to a player who cons red to you (>5 levels higher) you lose no XP and they are unable to loot anything from you. They can kill you but you don't lose anything. Loot and scoot should be up to the teams themselves to grant and police. A respected foe might be granted safe passage. A known shithead/griefer might get corpse camped for days. No guarantees. Corpse camping should be a legal tactic/option.

Kunark and Velious:
The expansions need to be treated judiciously, because they both offer challenges for PvP balance on a Teams server. Kunark is a problem because it is a natural safe haven for the Dark team. And Velious is a huge problem because high-end Velious gear basically destroys PvP balance by making melee classes unkillable. So the first team to get a bunch of NToV geared melees will steamroll everyone else. That being the case, I would propose the following:

1) Kunark release must be delayed at least 6 months, or even a full year as per the classic timeline. This would probably be enough to prevent the Dark team from completely dominating the continent, because by the time it comes out the other teams will have enough high level players to make successful incursions into Kunark.

2) Velious must be released in two stages: stage 1 would allow access to all of IC, EW and GD, as well as Thurgadin and Kael (minus AoW/Statue). This gives teams access to low-end Velious raid targets and Thurg armor. This stage would probably represent the ideal point of class balance for EQ PvP, and the server could easily be stopped here indefinitely. But it should pause at this stage for at least six months to a year. This would allow each team time to be competitive for acquiring a baseline of Velious gear. Then you could release stage 2 of Velious and open up the high-end ToV loots, which would start to be the end of the good PvP on the server but players would probably demand after getting bored of being stuck in stage 1.

Team balance: The Devs could promote team balance by giving the weakest team a standing 20% XP bonus. Team balance would be determined by a simple function of population and the teamwide K/D ratio and could be calculated on a weekly basis.

Random balance considerations:
- SoulFire is Paladin-only
- Amulet of Necropotence is made NO DROP
- OT hammer is removed from game, or a comparable FV hammer is added via a similar quest in FV. Necessary to prevent Dark team from having a big mobilization advantage in Kunark/Velious era.

I dig everything about this except item loot and xp loss for pvp death. Item loot = naked casters and lack of people rolling melee. Period. There is a reason Verant got rid of it (all live pvp servers early on had item loot and was later changed to coin loot, a good change IMO). Penalizing XP for a death is just going to make people not want to engage in PvP and there wont be the luxury of rezzes everywhere like we have on blue.

Coin loot a corpse run and a hit to your ego is plenty of penalization for a pvp death.

[Vexenu]

Go back and read it more closely. I did not propose item loot in that ruleset.

[Nirgon]

this is why we need teams, so teams can protect their more tender members

No issue with Jibartik here but

Teams just makes you feel like "ugh is this idiot on my team, wish I could kill him"

All the time. Esp when I played wow. Cringe at McDonald's MMO.

[Nirgon]

what if the good/neut teams were softcoded, and could group together but not with evil team?

So FFA and evil sectioned off

Why not just FFA

Heh - you can make an all good race guild

Guilds are teams

Put guild war on green, it's classic

[Jibartik]

the biggest cringe of all.

You send me tells in game every day lol

also no I will not buy any more of your bone chips the market is saturated now your little camp in NQ you can move on from now.

[Danger]

You send me tells in game every day lol

also no I will not buy any more of your bone chips the market is saturated now your little camp in NQ you can move on from now.

literally insane levels of cope. jib is a good candidate for future macequester.

[Danger]

So FFA and evil sectioned off

Why not just FFA

Heh - you can make an all good race guild

Guilds are teams

Put guild war on green, it's classic

I agree guildwar should be on green. Shit is classic. But outside of your guild, who is chomping at the bit to declare war when they have the option to not? How long does guildwar stay in effect on a PvE server anyway? 7 days or something?

[Chortles Snort|eS]

BiG jibArTik PM YiKeS

[Jibartik]

Go get your shine box (https://wiki.project1999.com/Box_For_Bones) and head back to NQ danger.

[Danger]

https://i.imgur.com/rO4foT5.jpg

I said, no more shines Billy. Maybe you didn't hear about it, you've been away a long time, I didn't go up, didn't tell ya.

[Jibartik]

Lets not forget that with 3 lines of text I made this troll so mad he had to go and screenshot his inbox that he replied to me 99 times.

[Chortles Snort|eS]

me think u2 get. RooM in NeriAk doWn UndeR

[Danger]

me think u2 get. RooM in NeriAk doWn UndeR

dont need a room when im already living in his head rent free LOL

[Lojik]

Coming up with good teams would be an issue.

FFA would need adjusting. No zone logging (You're LD on other zone if you /q) Keep the resist code so melee can resist spells but add item loot, everything tradable, can loot bags. Content is unlocked based on NPCs killed, server resets when sleeper woken. Highest level players would, in theory focus on being in BG zones. Harder to grief and /q

[Jibartik]

I still think battle royal eq with fast exp gains and maybe extra damage to NPCs just to make it about collecting loot and preventing other players from getting loot etc before you all end up in the random final zone and the last team/group/player takes the chicken dinner.

[pink grapefruit]

So FFA and evil sectioned off

Why not just FFA

Heh - you can make an all good race guild

Guilds are teams

Put guild war on green, it's classic

no, not FFA with evil sectioned off.

we want lots of bluebies to come over and experience the joys of eq pvp, and teams allow for more safety. you don't need to fear anyone on the good team if you're also good, making the server feel more welcoming to bluebiies.

I still think battle royal eq with fast exp gains and maybe extra damage to NPCs just to make it about collecting loot and preventing other players from getting loot etc before you all end up in the random final zone and the last team/group/player takes the chicken dinner.

that's the kinda thing we want to move away from :P

[Jibartik]

that's the kinda thing we want to move away from :P

Yeah, I know.. I just think it would work great. :D

In my mind its every day is a newbie yard shit show, and then in like 2 hours it's like a lower guk shitshow and then after 8 hours it's the final shitshow showdown!

[pink grapefruit]

Yeah, I know.. I just think it would work great. :D

In my mind its every day is a newbie yard shit show, and then in like 2 hours it's like a lower guk shitshow and then after 8 hours it's the final shitshow showdown!

being a RZ bluebie, don't you feel that the added potential of pvp made the best parts of EQ (social gameplay) that much better??

a eq battle royale is just not eq at all :O

[Jibartik]

being a RZ bluebie, don't you feel that the added potential of pvp made the best parts of EQ (social gameplay) that much better??

a eq battle royale is just not eq at all :O

I feel you, but I think there is a happy medium. Like when I played Dayz for the first time I was like, man I am having loads of fun and all I'm doing is sneaking around, collecting loot, building my rig/character the way I want to, and doing it all without any creatures to kill... made me see that it wasnt the "grinding" I liked, it was the "open world progression"

For me it's not about the year, or 3 years of progression, its just the progression that I like.

Collecting loot if its so easy that its literally sitting on the floor was fun in DayZ for me, so I figure if you add some very easy to kill enemies to make it "a bit more difficult" and "make me gankable" would be like the perfect fit for me I think.

Basically what I'd like is the the entire EQ experience condenced into a night of gamging.

And then try again the next night, and the next etc.

I mean, what does long term eq server pvp provide anyway? We have a great server to do that on and none of this community has any interest in playing there at all under any circumstances :p

[Baler]

I hope there is time between green and red 2.0

I WILL PLAY A NEW PVP SERVER

but at this second my focus is on green.

[Jibartik]

I hope there is time between green and red 2.0

I WILL PLAY A NEW PVP SERVER

but at this second my focus is on green.

Id like to see a one year wait before the next one, I know that is like NOOOOO for other players but, I think it would be cool for us to have to go back to blue and remember why we love fresh servers so much and be HUNGRY for another one.

Cant be christmas every day or when it's not christmas is christmas. :o

Maybe a 1 month wait lol

[Vexenu]

The most important consideration when designing a new PvP ruleset is creating something that will appeal to Blue players. Because the PvP fans are going to play regardless. So you want a ruleset that will intrigue longtime/lapsed Blue players and make them think, "Hmmm...I'm not really a PvP guy, but that sounds like it could be pretty fun and really freshen up the EQ experience." If you can get just a few hundred people like that to give it a try you've got a very good chance to create a thriving server. And let's face it, there isn't a huge untapped market of potential P1999 PvP players just sitting on the sidelines. If you want more players on a PvP server the reality is most of them will primarily be Blue players. Also, as anyone who played PvP back in the day can tell you, the majority of players on the old Zek servers were not elite PvPers who ran around looking for fights constantly. The server benefits from having more PvE focused players as well. EQ shouldn't be played like a deathmatch. PvP in EQ is the spice that enhances the dish, it isn't the main dish itself. It's still primarily a PvE game, and PvE-focused players should feel like they have a reason to be on the server as well.

This is why you needs Teams (built-in allies provides a safety net). This is why item loot is a no-go (scares away Blue players off the bat). This is why you need to offer something fresh that hasn't been done on previous PvP servers (a new ruleset).

[Baler]

The most important consideration when designing a new PvP ruleset is creating something that will appeal to Blue players. Because the PvP fans are going to play regardless. So you want a ruleset that will intrigue longtime/lapsed Blue players and make them think, "Hmmm...I'm not really a PvP guy, but that sounds like it could be pretty fun and really freshen up the EQ experience." If you can get just a few hundred people like that to give it a try you've got a very good chance to create a thriving server. And let's face it, there isn't a huge untapped market of potential P1999 PvP players just sitting on the sidelines. If you want more players on a PvP server the reality is most of them will primarily be Blue players. Also, as anyone who played PvP back in the day can tell you, the majority of players on the old Zek servers were not elite PvPers who ran around looking for fights constantly. The server benefits from having more PvE focused players as well. EQ shouldn't be played like a deathmatch. PvP in EQ is the spice that enhances the dish, it isn't the main dish itself. It's still primarily a PvE game, and PvE-focused players should feel like they have a reason to be on the server as well.

This is why you needs Teams (built-in allies provides a safety net). This is why item loot is a no-go (scares away Blue players off the bat). This is why you need to offer something fresh that hasn't been done on previous PvP servers (a new ruleset).

I wouldn't even read this entire paragraph block of text if I was sober.

[pink grapefruit]

I wouldn't even read this entire paragraph block of text if I was sober.

it's all true, though. vexenu makes a sound case for why the new server will need to be something that interests the bluebies.

[Sear]

Yeah, he's not wrong.

If this red server ends up being FFA ruleset again, I'd consider starting new players in a default guild.

It'd be less daunting and antisocial for a casual player trying the server for the first time than the tentative unspoken truce that exists among the unguilded on R99/RZ.

[Baler]

To get a greater than 1.0 KDR

[Jibartik]

They should just force us all onto red with the server transfer then not open an new one for a while :) See what happens /shrug probubly we all just go watch netflix till they launch a new one but could be a fun few weeks lol

[Wonkie]

an armed society is a polite society

[Baler]

https://i.imgur.com/fAtfRGA.gif

[Gustoo]

They should just force us all onto red with the server transfer then not open an new one for a while :) See what happens /shrug probubly we all just go watch netflix till they launch a new one but could be a fun few weeks lol

In my dreams this happens. bluebies establish anti pk policies and its full on old school rallos goodness.

wishin and hopin.

[Jibartik]

In my dreams this happens. bluebies establish anti pk policies and its full on old school rallos goodness.

wishin and hopin.

Now thats classic PvP

[Rang]

My idea (and I'll try not to turn into wall of text) and ideal pvp server would be:

base idea:
Rallos Rule set (one item loot (non weapon, range or ammo)+coin, no xp loss from pvp)
FFA pvp +/- 3 lvl
pvp enable at level 12
all items droppable except epics
no csr in raid zones
fix / disable ability to plug
adjust resists based on xpac (nerf resists a bit in velious)

advanced idea:
points system for kills. all points can buy you is a title (better titles as you get more pts, could even get rp appropriate custom titles for all timers)
have a default/starter guild that protects levellers by assigning bounty points to pkers who kill members of the starter guild (pkers worth more points - this is like an anti-pk idea) - auto boot from starter guild after lvl 40
decaying (to 0 points) subsequent kill points based on time (ie. one time full points, two times within an hr half pts, three times zero pts, etc)

i think it would be cool. prove me wrong. sorry for the rant

[Jimjam]

No accelerated xp please, that killed red for me.

I always say level cap 39, faydwer only, elves vs shorts.

[Sear]

Add some Guk/Solusek melee drops to the MM/Unrest loot tables and I'm sold.

Mass outdoor zone pvp and contested dungeons would cool to experience again. Dare I say it would even feel Classic (tm), despite being a custom solution.

[Gustoo]

Accelerated EXP is the worst.

[Danger]

Aside from PvP I want it just like the green server but classic.

[Jibartik]

Why don't you guys play RoZ serious question? My understanding is its a great pvp server?

[Gustoo]

Not actually great. Doesn't have reputation needed to support playerbase. Gotta trust that your pixels are in a strong and safe digital pixelbox.

[Jibartik]

Not actually great. Doesn't have reputation needed to support playerbase. Gotta trust that your pixels are in a strong and safe digital pixelbox.

What do you mean hehe, like isnt it a reset server with seasons? Why do pixels matter in that scenario? These are not troll questions. :o

[Sear]

Why don't you guys play RoZ serious question? My understanding is its a great pvp server?

It seems like a solid pvp server alternative, but people will always look to P99 first because of their reputation (also helps being in the top category of the server list). It's the same answer as asking why more people don't play on the non-P99 blue servers. They're like small companies trying to take market share from Microsoft.

+ right now RoZ says "Luclin/PvP/Progression" and idk what that means exactly but nothing from the Luclin expansion appeals to me

[Jibartik]

https://i.imgur.com/DbOstqP.png

https://i.imgur.com/9A3JOEv.gif

[Danger]

https://i.imgur.com/DbOstqP.png

https://i.imgur.com/9A3JOEv.gif

100% agreed. Tried RoZ but the boxing was unimmersive. Same with Luclin shit like Vah Shir Beastlords, AAs etc.

At least when people box on red they have the common decency to try to hide it, sometimes.

/g let me wake up my wife to log on her druid
/say hey honey
/autofollow

[Jibartik]

100% agreed. Tried RoZ but the boxing was unimmersive

yeah boxing is like playing some stupid IT server administration game.

I mean its a custom server with custom rules, just make the items that make your 1 character the 3 characters you're making someone screw around with it makes no sense to me but then again maybe these people like this type of game I dont get it at all though.

[Gustoo]

Yeah reasons

[Lulz Sect]

I've become a believer in nilbog's idea:

East (Red) VS West (Blue) hardcoded teams

https://i.imgur.com/wz7wpjZ.png

+/- 4 level restriction beginning at level 2 that perhaps widens the higher level you get, raid zones are FFA.

this is an interesting team idea

[Gustoo]

I now think it should be no pvp level range so that teams can defend their noobs and so there is no reason to twink PK

OR item loot enabled with the 4 lvl pvp range

I think item loot is better

[walfreyydo]

It seems like a solid pvp server alternative, but people will always look to P99 first because of their reputation (also helps being in the top category of the server list). It's the same answer as asking why more people don't play on the non-P99 blue servers. They're like small companies trying to take market share from Microsoft.

+ right now RoZ says "Luclin/PvP/Progression" and idk what that means exactly but nothing from the Luclin expansion appeals to me

My experience on RoZ was widespread use of ShowEQ and no enforcement. Boxing also sucks

[walfreyydo]

I now think it should be no pvp level range so that teams can defend their noobs and so there is no reason to twink PK

OR item loot enabled with the 4 lvl pvp range

I think item loot is better

Again, they had item loot on live. The result was almost exclusive use of naked casters and no melee.

Is that what you want? Because thats exactly what will happen, and thats exactly why Verant went to coin loot. Think about it...

[stewe]

face it, p99 isnt gonna bring out any new server or make blue the new red server just cause 20 ppl (maybe im being generous with this number) want to pvp in EQ which was never a good pvp game to begin with.

[Danger]

face it, p99 isnt gonna bring out any new server or make blue the new red server just cause 20 ppl (maybe im being generous with this number) want to pvp in EQ which was never a good pvp game to begin with.

false, staff already confirmed it. sorry your toxic 150 person server is dying.

[Frug]

false, staff already confirmed it. sorry your toxic 150 person server is dying.

Lulz. https://i.imgur.com/Sub8Qh3.png

[Danger]

cya at the bottom

[Jibartik]

Lulz. https://i.imgur.com/Sub8Qh3.png

cant have camp/loot disputes if nobody is playing at all.

red wins again.

[Gustoo]

Again, they had item loot on live. The result was almost exclusive use of naked casters and no melee.

Is that what you want? Because thats exactly what will happen, and thats exactly why Verant went to coin loot. Think about it...

I played on rallos zek

It was item loot until LDON allowed augments, and even then it was still item loot except good stuff had augments which made it no drop. Didn't switch to no item loot until the server merge.

It was the highest population pvp server for its entire history.

Naked casters are great for low levels. If all their spells are landing, they are fighting another naked person with no items worth taking, and the result is the exact same as if there was no item loot, since the item loot transaction is almost meaningless when they're looting a piece of banded or cloth armor. This is a dumb point coming from someone who never played. Naked casters at level zero always beat naked melees at level zero, item loot or not.

[Jibartik]

A naked caster would be exactly what I want, lol There is nothing more satisfying than killing naked people in everquest.

[kotton05]

My experience on RoZ was widespread use of ShowEQ and no enforcement. Boxing also sucks

They still sucked even with cheats on that server. Loved the tears.

[Ataxio]

Honestly, The low numbers on blue is almost motivation to start playing again.

.. Until I log in and /w all seb ... still jammed... #*@($

[Gustoo]

A naked caster would be exactly what I want, lol There is nothing more satisfying than killing naked people in everquest.

Fully acceptaball. Good timez for all.

I just get surprised when people act like item loot makes naked casters such a big problem. Like...errr derr every noob level 1 to whatever has nothing to lose from item loot. Only twinks.

Basically if there is a PVP level range limit like +-4 rallos style, than it should be item loot.

If not item loot, it should be unlimited PVP level range because level 60's being able to kill level 1's means that those level 60's have no reason to make a twink PK, and then other level 60's can battle them after they slay noobs.

Optimal is pvp level range and item loot so that there can be "real" ish pvp at all levels instead of just level 60.

[Expediency]

I'd probably try a teams server if it was fresh but the market has spoken and the vast majority of p99 players do not favor pvp.

EQ is a huge timesink and most of us have careers. Some loser with no job griefing me so he can steal the camp I waited for is not my idea of a good time.

[pink grapefruit]

Green is such a success I don't see why they don't make it the new pvp server, tbh. Giving the bluebies this headstart without pvp would be the best way to ensure they stay on the server, and we know green is populated enough to maintain healthy pvp competition.

Dare we dream? :O

[Expediency]

opponents of pvp, in my experience, always just assume they're going to lose any hypothetical pvp encounter. You just might win you know, and you might have fun in the process.

Say I'm average and I win half of my encounters. The guy who wins gets what? The guy who loses has, on average, 20 minutes worth of work (very generous estimate) to collect his corpse, buff, mem spells, etc. Where is the benefit here for anyone? Every encounter results in someone wasting huge amounts of time. Thats why there are less than 20 people on your server.

[Expediency]

You haven't played PvP before and shit kind of shows here but alright for the sake of discussion I'll take your numbers. The 20 minutes you lost from a pvp encounter that didn't go your way you gain in other encounters through not having to sit around for 2 hours on a list, or sit in an orderly line for a quest hand in.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hkk9ycj9ieo

that is disgusting.

you win some, you lose some but overall the enormous time sinks are eliminated if you get your bros and take it.

I have no idea what that video is trying to demonstrate. I do not play that kind of EQ.

You and your "bros" come take a camp after someone kills you. You're proving my point. Even if I win the encounter, you seriously expect me to waste my time clearing to some camp in a dungeon so you can train me and/or kill me when I'm weak and take it? Thats garbage. My time is valuable to me.

Its prime time and you got 19 people logged in so I'm pretty sure I'm right here.

[pink grapefruit]

I have no idea what that video is trying to demonstrate. I do not play that kind of EQ.

You and your "bros" come take a camp after someone kills you. You're proving my point. Even if I win the encounter, you seriously expect me to waste my time clearing to some camp in a dungeon so you can train me and/or kill me when I'm weak and take it? Thats garbage. My time is valuable to me.

Its prime time and you got 19 people logged in so I'm pretty sure I'm right here.

PvP is a much better way of handling the problem of limited resources, but that's not the only reason we love it :)

It's FUN, and it adds a layer of depth to the social experience that is EverQuest. Blue servers suck because they artificially limit the ways in which players can interact with one another. On a pvp server, having people you trust actually means something. On a blue server, every player you don't immediately interact with may as well not even be there.

Why is it that bluebies have nostalgic memories of being one-shotted by Cazel, but then go on to say things like "my time is valuable; losing a fight and having to run back to my corpse is the exact OPPOSITE of fun"? Makes zero sense :(

[Expediency]

PvP is a much better way of handling the problem of limited resources, but that's not the only reason we love it :)

Why is it that bluebies have nostalgic memories of being one-shotted by Cazel, but then go on to say things like "my time is valuable; losing a fight and having to run back to my corpse is the exact OPPOSITE of fun"? Makes zero sense :(

Cazel is predictable, doesnt grief me intentionally, doesnt sit at the zone waiting to backstab me, cant call in backup, and cant FD at my dungeon camp.

currently green has 2k+, blue is at 550ish, and red is at 23. Less than 1% of players logged on to p99 preferred the red server. The market has spoken.

[walfreyydo]

Fully acceptaball. Good timez for all.

I just get surprised when people act like item loot makes naked casters such a big problem. Like...errr derr every noob level 1 to whatever has nothing to lose from item loot. Only twinks.

Basically if there is a PVP level range limit like +-4 rallos style, than it should be item loot.

If not item loot, it should be unlimited PVP level range because level 60's being able to kill level 1's means that those level 60's have no reason to make a twink PK, and then other level 60's can battle them after they slay noobs.

Optimal is pvp level range and item loot so that there can be "real" ish pvp at all levels instead of just level 60.

I was on Tallon Zek when it was item loot and it sucked.

[Gustoo]

I was on Tallon Zek when it was item loot and it sucked.

Tallon Zek sucked for a number of reasons I apologize for your negative experience. There are only two ways to solve twink PK problem.

1. Item loot. It makes pvp at low levels fun and twinks are bosses and people can make plans to figure out how to kill these guys and get their stuff. Those noobs losing cloth are essentially losing nothing except the time to get their corpse, which they would lose with or without item loot. Especially in a well developed server where gear is handed out freely. Higher level people losing stuff is cool too. The economy is better as items change hands thru normal people stealing stuff, droppable items way cheaper. Less RMT activity.

2. No PVP level range. It makes it pointless to make a twink. Lowbie rely on their teams high levels to defend them against psychopaths. Since all level 60's can battle all level ranges of enemy team, it also works okay.

[Gustoo]

Less than 1% of players logged on to p99 preferred the red server. The market has spoken.

The market prefers fresh servers versus servers experiencing deep server rot.

Note the mass exodus from blue to green when green opened.

Red has experienced deep server rot in several phases beginning before launch when the server fired up before making ANY changes to broken mechanics that were begged to be fixed during BETA. Launch was further screwed due to GM corruption that has thankfully been resolved (Bristlebane bless our lovely staff) god aweful custom resists, banning half of the active players in the server in two separate occasions at least one of them resulting from GM corruption, and God aweful custom unclassic PVP ruleset.

MOST IMPORTANTLY red players are smart enough to know when to throw in the towel and walk away from a pile of steaming rubble. The entire community has been begging for a server wipe or reset since BEFORE VELIOUS LAUNCHED to help mitigate these issues and give Red a fresh start.

Blue was Green Beta and is done for
Red was Pink Beta and is done for

The extremely low active number of players on Red only speaks to the intelligence and normalcy of the community as a whole. We literally pray for the people currently active on red on a daily basis.

[Snagglepuss]

When people say red was 'toxic' during 2011-2013 or whenever, what do they mean? I don't have any experience there besides one night when they shut down the blue server. I've read some of the pvp threads and find them funny, but I don't get what is so bad about the server culture.

Was it people griefing noobs or training?

[Diogene]

The most important consideration when designing a new PvP ruleset is creating something that will appeal to Blue players. Because the PvP fans are going to play regardless. So you want a ruleset that will intrigue longtime/lapsed Blue players and make them think, "Hmmm...I'm not really a PvP guy, but that sounds like it could be pretty fun and really freshen up the EQ experience." If you can get just a few hundred people like that to give it a try you've got a very good chance to create a thriving server. And let's face it, there isn't a huge untapped market of potential P1999 PvP players just sitting on the sidelines. If you want more players on a PvP server the reality is most of them will primarily be Blue players. Also, as anyone who played PvP back in the day can tell you, the majority of players on the old Zek servers were not elite PvPers who ran around looking for fights constantly. The server benefits from having more PvE focused players as well. EQ shouldn't be played like a deathmatch. PvP in EQ is the spice that enhances the dish, it isn't the main dish itself. It's still primarily a PvE game, and PvE-focused players should feel like they have a reason to be on the server as well.

This is why you needs Teams (built-in allies provides a safety net). This is why item loot is a no-go (scares away Blue players off the bat). This is why you need to offer something fresh that hasn't been done on previous PvP servers (a new ruleset).

As a long time blue player, what refrained me to play red has always been the lack of a cool ruleset. Teams would definitely be an appealing and refreshing experience. This thread is actually very interesting. Keep the ideas coming.

[Nomy]

I'd drop green any day if team pvp was in. Especially if some sort of looting was implemented, like random piece equipped on character. 😀

[Gustoo]

When people say red was 'toxic' during 2011-2013 or whenever, what do they mean? I don't have any experience there besides one night when they shut down the blue server. I've read some of the pvp threads and find them funny, but I don't get what is so bad about the server culture.

Was it people griefing noobs or training?

Its really the same toxic pixel lust you see on blue, but has the added stress of people being able to kill eachother in game.

Generally it was the griefing that was referred to as toxic. People seemingly taking pride in killing helpless victims over and over again.

Originally, PVP deaths resulted in full EXP loss. I am guessing this was really implemented to keep people from suiciding to avoid exp death. However, this rule combined with the lack of item loot meant there were severe penalties for weaker or less equipped players to engage in PVP combat, and literally zero benefit at all.

Additionally, there was a global OOC channel, with server announced "yellow text" from a pvp death. This global OOC channel gave psychopaths an opportunity to speak to an audience and deepened the toxicity for these guys. The yellow text further de-incentivized actual PVP activity, and a player made leaderboard with kill / death ratio tracking made this even worse.

As you know, many classes in the game are not going to be getting any kills at all, so those players look like garbage on a board focused on K / D ratio which is the only thing that can be documented based on the yellow text announcements.

Basically, every single custom aspect of the server contributed to the "toxic"

That is why, as fun as a custom ruleset server sounds, a classic full rallos zek server is the one I feel would be must successful and is most in line with the successful track record of the blue project. Item loot also means there is some reason for low level players to try to kill twinks. The noob player has no gear to lose (so only loses his time), but has some gear to gain, even if it is a small chance. Without item loot he has the risk of losing time, and no chance of any gain from fighting these types.

The only alternate ruleset that is viable is a teams based unrestricted pvp (1-60 can kill eachother) because it completely eradicates the concept of a twink PK. This is the only ruleset that makes any sense without item loot. It is a sad compromise because the low level PVP experience is one of the best parts about EQ pvp to me. Choosing a level and creating strategies around your class abilities at that level and the class abilities of your potential opponents 4 levels above and 4 levels below you. Its basically a completely different game which to me is a lot of fun. It allows people to enjoy the game without feeling the absolute need to get to level 50 or 60. A guy can be a tunnel rat and have a level 16 character and do battle.

The full open sullon zek 1-60 pvp ruleset just fully throws level 1-59 in the dumpster and creates a world that is optimized for level 60 play. No OOR healing, and your team mates at high level can assist their team lowbies at all levels instead of being forced to watch them be killed in unrest by an ogre SK with a fungi.

I think most people see the current red server as being "basically" rallos zek style, but since it is missing the core element of that server, its really just a bad custom server. Its like saying a server is "mostly" classic but has POK and books, and the bazaar.

But because the current ruleset settled to +- 4 pvp range (it used to be variable based on level range, which also was a dumb custom compromise that was designed in a silo) I think the next server is going to be a Nilbog custom 2 teams sullon zek ruleset, which I would enjoy, though a lot less than rallos zek real red99.



I for one would be happy with a server that doesn't have ANY legacy item bullshit in it. I do not enjoy the race to get a guise, the race to get a manastone, the race to get lockets of escape. Having a character bound at the pots. These things should be in the server or they should be removed. I don't enjoy a false sense of scarcity. If I can have a tool to get mana faster on my druid or wizard I would rather it be something that can be earned forever than this kind of weird pixel lust item.

I especially hate bind items that totally change PVE strategy. Its just not fun to me feeling like I need to protect this never-gunna-get-more item. F that stuff.

Let it not exist or be a pain in the ass for a player to craft. Like foraged items from 25 zones kind of pain.

I also don't think the sleeper should be wakeable on a server stuck in velious era since its only effect is to fuck your fellow players and limit the pixels they can get.

That all said, a full classic rallos rules replica would be my choice.

Back to the toxic question, it isnt any more toxic than blue. Just a little more intense, and since the community got smaller and smaller you start dealing with really psychotic guys on a regular basis on their 100th alt. The grief in PVP is more humane to me than the disgusting displays of pixel denial I see from people on green server trying to prevent Teal from opening because of a fear of too many manastones existing.

[silo32]

My main hope is that it never happens.

same

[silo32]

I also don't think the sleeper should be wakeable on a server stuck in velious era since its only effect is to fuck your fellow players and limit the pixels they can get.

this is what killed red, the big zerg guild killed the sleeper because they were burned out on pixel lust and ruined it for the rest then left

red would be 200+ if the sleeper wasn't killed

[Frug]

red would be 200+ if the sleeper wasn't killed

You're adorable.

[Old_PVP]

I for one would be happy with a server that doesn't have ANY legacy item bullshit in it. I do not enjoy the race to get a guise, the race to get a manastone, the race to get lockets of escape. Having a character bound at the pots. These things should be in the server or they should be removed. I don't enjoy a false sense of scarcity. If I can have a tool to get mana faster on my druid or wizard I would rather it be something that can be earned forever than this kind of weird pixel lust item.

Totally agree. The whole legacy item race is retarded. I was thinking about this earlier, which classes generally don't give a fuck about the legacy items? I would probably make one of those so I wouldn't have to deal with that level of sickness.

Maybe: Bard, Rogue, Enchanter?

[Widan]

There can absolutely be no velious ever on a pvp server. I'm hesistant to even include Kunark. Forcing people to raid to compete in pvp is the dumbest shit ever for a supposed 'red' server.

[silo32]

You're adorable.

respawn the sleeper and un chain the dragons and pop will hit 300 next week