Red melee discussion

[Gustoo]

With all of the boring blue talk going on about the green server I wanted to ask about some melee stuff with red in mind.

In a recent thread there was discussion about rangers with a nice bow being part of running people down. Are decent rangers pretty effective these days?

In velious how are warriors stacking up in pvp compared to other Melee?


I remember the nerf a while back about making non channeling classes way more likely to be interrupted with their clickies (like guaranteed to be interrupted) has this had a negative impact on non hybrids in melee or not so much?

I have zero experience at level 60 pvp so just kinda curious how things play out for people that have the time to enjoy the game at that level.

[Gustoo]

The windstriker because of the weapon effectiveness or just the proc? Is that proc something that is gunna get nerfed?


What about for all of the other weapon using classes? How does warrior play out, in pvp is it wishing it had some utility like an sk or what? What spells actually land on people that have half decent gear?

I agree that archery here felt really limp and weird.

[Palemoon]

red melee overpowered partly because mousewheel makes them trivial to play.

[Baler]

I heard rogue at zl is pretty good

[totmanc]

Fun facts about Archery
1) Its really good on Warriors, Rangers, Rogues (Paladins and Sk's cap it out at 75 skill)
2) Mighty Strike when below 40% life with a bow causes each arrow to stun.
3) Precision causes each arrow to jab shitters in the throat and makes kick stunning really easy just follow the arrow to a pesky caster
4) any cloth wearing lunatic will retreat from you
5) CYA

[Gustoo]

Thanks fro the facts about archery. Paladin and SK's are just supposed to use it to pull.

I get that Melee is OP when people start getting legit gear. But casters are still in the game.

Does warrior do well at max level despite inability to channel on their clickies?

Or do SK's do better?

How do non clerics play? Classes that get lures will use those, right?

Basically as an SK what spellz or caster class besides dispell am I going to be most worried about?

[totmanc]

List of Scary spells
1) Rapture
2)Tash
3) Malo
4) Bane of nife
5) Trucidation
6) If ice/fire lower then 120 any wizard or druid casting a nuke
7) Lures and life taps
8) other dots, pyro, splurt, envenomed bolt, winged death, breath of ro, pox of bertoxxulous
10) Annoying other dots EG bard dots, ranger dots SK dots

[Gustoo]

Thanks for the good response Totmanc really appreciate.

Is Rapture unresistable?

Do youz guyzes not use poison and disease cure pots for the poison dots

Does Pyro get cured with cancel magic type of spell?

Do most of these dots land pretty reliably despite good resists?

Really appreciate the talks.

[Videri]

List of Scary spells
1) Rapture
2)Tash
3) Malo
4) Bane of nife
5) Trucidation
6) If ice/fire lower then 120 any wizard or druid casting a nuke
7) Lures and life taps
8) other dots, pyro, splurt, envenomed bolt, winged death, breath of ro, pox of bertoxxulous
10) Annoying other dots EG bard dots, ranger dots SK dots

If I am ever playing on the same PvP server as Strut, I will join whatever guild he is in. FYI

[Palemoon]

List of Scary spells
1) Rapture
2)Tash
3) Malo
4) Bane of nife
5) Trucidation
6) If ice/fire lower then 120 any wizard or druid casting a nuke
7) Lures and life taps
8) other dots, pyro, splurt, envenomed bolt, winged death, breath of ro, pox of bertoxxulous
10) Annoying other dots EG bard dots, ranger dots SK dots

1. immunity to with reckless health potion
2. cured with a fast cast cure poison or potion
3. only scare when combined with tash, but see above
4. 2 or 3 swigs of counteract potion

the rest is just resists, heals, potion cures, dispels.

Some classes will drive you from the field especially if you are just a warrior. like a pet class or a bard. They will just kite you.

generally once geared, the melee have all the advantages, which is why I think disabled mousewheel is critical to classic red

[Gustoo]

I appreciate the insights.

Reckless health means you are super duper ready for battle.

Can you flame lick or other super weak dot yourself to stay unraptured?

[Videri]

I appreciate the insights.

Reckless health means you are super duper ready for battle.

Can you flame lick or other super weak dot yourself to stay unraptured?

Yes. Disease Cloud is nice for this, as it has a 6-minute duration and can’t be dispelled (it can be cured, though; disease, of course).

Tune told me he thought Human or Gnome clerics of Bertoxxulous were a good choice because they get a disease cloud necklace.

[Gustoo]

Disease cloud is definitely more useful than terrible snare neck as a symbol.

I think they can maybe still get the scary helm and scary mask from odus, maybe? As a bertox cleric.

Thats a deep pro tip.

[Palemoon]

pro enchanters carry around shield of the immaculate to cure your disease before rapture though

[Bazia]

you just get sting wort potions and it deletes ENCs from the game, and without them to CC ROG just deletes everyone else

in classic wiz and dru rapes all then kunark and beyond its rogues

EQ PVP is fun but yeah really badly balanced

[Gustoo]

Bazia why rogue and not monk warrior ranger sk pally?

Rogue burst dps so much better?

Its fun to talk about despite permanent lack of balance. In the end more than 1 class comes to play and how they support each other makes the most diff.

[Bazia]

Bazia why rogue and not monk warrior ranger sk pally?

Rogue burst dps so much better?

Its fun to talk about despite permanent lack of balance. In the end more than 1 class comes to play and how they support each other makes the most diff.

yes, the only thing comparable to a rogue is an SK with Harm Touch up but thats only one and done

you can figure out whose going to win almost any pvp encounter exclusively based on who has more rogues

[SteppinnRazor]

warriors are the best velious melee with raid gear, but lack the utility of sneak/hide or feign death.

they hit like trucks and bow hard

classic: casters
kunark: wiz or rog/mnk
vel: melees or wiz train

[coolget]

Cure Disease is the scariest spell in the game

monks are the best class in the game once kunark hits

[Rushmore]

Cure Disease is the scariest spell in the game

monks are the best class in the game once kunark hits

dat T-staff... dont let em have it

[DRAGONBAIT]

dont leave cripple spell behind like that, most op spell in the game.
non channeling classes can have a hard time pulling pumices out.
Strut never gave my mana robe back.

this are facts.

[Gustoo]

Cripple is an awesome spell, is it something that lands?

Coolget do you still feel monk is megabest class despite the channeling fix you pushed for? (Can't channel to pumice)?

[Vexenu]

In classic melees had 0 channeling skill and were guaranteed to be interrupted by even a single point of damage. I vividly remember a humiliating occasion when a chanter/druid team had my Monk tashed, rooted and DoTed and kept jumping in range to melee me to interrupt my pumice casts. Zero channeling was an Achilles heel to melees that were otherwise very overpowered by endgame Velious.

Also agree that mouse scroll wheel makes playing a melee much easier. In classic you were first person all the time. Made jousting a lot harder. But at the same time it made it easier if you were really good at it because you could literally run circles around the less skilled. I used to be able to fight multiple other melees at at a time and take very little damage because their FPS skills were just not good enough to make them dangerous jousters. You knew who the dangerous melees were because they quickly got a reputation for being really good jousters.

[Trainhop]

#1 blind
#2 a memmed gate spell you know the button for

[kotton05]

If I am ever playing on the same PvP server as Strut, I will join whatever guild he is in. FYI

I crushed Struts bones to ash. He sent me a tell saying good job.

[Videri]

I crushed Struts bones to ash. He sent me a tell saying good job.

NOOO MY HERO

[coolget]

Cripple is an awesome spell, is it something that lands?

Coolget do you still feel monk is megabest class despite the channeling fix you pushed for? (Can't channel to pumice)?

yes

[DRAGONBAIT]

Cripple is an awesome spell, is it something that lands?

Coolget do you still feel monk is megabest class despite the channeling fix you pushed for? (Can't channel to pumice)?

yes it does, better than most. tho u need coordination, wich never existed here, to be able to cast any resistable spell on velious geared players.

eq pvp ends at 55 on kunark gear. whoever says otherwise has no clue

[Palemoon]

Also agree that mouse scroll wheel makes playing a melee much easier. In classic you were first person all the time. Made jousting a lot harder. But at the same time it made it easier if you were really good at it because you could literally run circles around the less skilled. I used to be able to fight multiple other melees at at a time and take very little damage because their FPS skills were just not good enough to make them dangerous jousters. You knew who the dangerous melees were because they quickly got a reputation for being really good jousters.

I hope more people come to realize this. Mousewheel really takes away from the skillful players. Melee and casters.

[Gustoo]

yes it does, better than most. tho u need coordination, wich never existed here, to be able to cast any resistable spell on velious geared players.

eq pvp ends at 55 on kunark gear. whoever says otherwise has no clue

Yeah I was bummed about launching velious here when we were in crippled zero pop mode.

Obviously PVP doesn't actually end but the gear gets so over the top that the strategies degrade. Thats why I like vanilla the best.

[iamnotsalem]

Monks were my least favorite melee to play. They were good though. Harmtouch, mighty strike/precision, and rogue burst were more fun to me. Precision got nerfed and no longer provides 100% accuracy though so thats not as cool.

Shadowknight was my favorite class. Super fun utility and worked well for me as someone who pvp'd on my own a lot. I could zone into Seb, CoS and FD my way to the crypt door, shadowstep through it (no need for a rogue to lock pick it), then procede to calm and FD my way to heirophant or baron. Fear one idiots pet and wipe a 6 man group with at least one gaurantee YT from harm touch. That basically worked the same in a lot of dungeons.

I also smashed most monks during kunark / velious on my SK other then Colgate, Gongshow, or Kammbo's monk in Velious. (I literally could not kill them). I had 2.4k HP and 900 AC but 1v1'd a ton of primal / facesmasher monks. The truth is most people arent good at EQ, and it really showed when there was 300 pop during early velious.

[kotton05]

Warriors/rogue = easiest melee (rogue being alil harder due to low hp/ac while a warrior can joust kite mobs when having aggro)
SK = next easiest but also has the most utility
Monk/Paladin = hardest, no burst dmg or gap closing skill on either with a paladin being much harder to play effectively in group combat where as a monk has to be mindful of casters in all situations due to low resists pre velious)

[coolget]

incoming autistic wall of text

hybrids got assfucked on this server in terms of hit rate, avoidance, and mitigation

monks, on the other hand, had ridiculous hit rate, avoidance, and survivability scaling from mend, which was balanced by a lower stamina-to-hp ratio that got completely voided by every item having a flat +100 hp on it

after velious, the only situation in which another melee had a realistic chance of beating a monk was in some retard scenario like an outdoor zone with a primal bow... during which a monk should just leave, or a geared out warrior getting very, very lucky

you'd have to be completely brainless to lose against another melee with a monk and even a handful of velious-raid-tier items

paladin, shadowknight, ranger, rogue had virtually no chance otherwise

in kunark, shadow knights and rogues had a decent chance due to non-inflated hp values while backstab/duelist and harm touch were at their peak power, but for the same reasons a tstaff/innerflame combo was much more relevant than it was in velious

most shadow knights were awful players attracted to an easy win harm touch button, and thus you saw a colossal disparity between the common shadow knight (people like tune) and people like salem who understood why you should play a shadow knight (the utility spells)

paladin was conversely underrated - people didn't understand how strong paladin in a support/disruption role could be and instead refused to play it because the 2-hand hit rate was garbage and they didn't have harm touch

[Danger]

paladin was conversely underrated - people didn't understand how strong paladin in a support/disruption role could be and instead refused to play it because the 2-hand hit rate was garbage and they didn't have harm touch

Go on...

[Darthmuhh]

Warriors/rogue = easiest melee (rogue being alil harder due to low hp/ac while a warrior can joust kite mobs when having aggro)
SK = next easiest but also has the most utility
Monk/Paladin = hardest, no burst dmg or gap closing skill on either with a paladin being much harder to play effectively in group combat where as a monk has to be mindful of casters in all situations due to low resists pre velious)

Tee Hee, he said rogues had low hp/ac...made me snottle ... Rogues are back up tanks on dragons =D Been there done that...Muhh 60 rogue 5700 hp buffed

[Gustoo]

The paladin has heals better than a druid or shaman, and can also hurt you. They are disruptive because unless they're retarded they should be able to stay alive well.

The suck because so much pvp happens in dungeons and that pally can't shed aggro like an sk or monk can. But they don't suck. Its just a disadvantage.

[Danger]

Was looking for Colgate's paladin input lol

[White_knight]

I had a low level SK twink secret named for awhile in MM.

I was an awfal PvPer over all, I knew how to survive at best, but getting kills was hard.

In terms of an SK...I got kills as you literally had to cast your lifetap a few times, hit a few times then harm touch to get a YT, this probably got a little harder in the 60s but essentially the process would be the same.

SKs were a good grief class because of their utility, and their big scary harmtouch but overall playing an SK you should automatically get 1-2 YTs a day off the harmtouch+lifetouch combo alone.

There were no good Paladins but I always wondered what a sick geared Paladin could achieve. Hands down would flog an SK 1v1.

[Gustoo]

Was looking for Colgate's paladin input lol

I wanted to see how far off I was from the GM

[Bazia]

paladins suck until tantors

[kotton05]

Tee Hee, he said rogues had low hp/ac...made me snottle ... Rogues are back up tanks on dragons =D Been there done that...Muhh 60 rogue 5700 hp buffed

Was excluding the ToV geared ones. Mainly referring to kubark and before

[kotton05]

Yeah I was bummed about launching velious here when we were in crippled zero pop mode.

Obviously PVP doesn't actually end but the gear gets so over the top that the strategies degrade. Thats why I like vanilla the best.

Classic gets real stale. Kubark is the pinnacle imo

[Gustoo]

For me with limited hours I like how much easier it is to BIS in classic and that BIS vs limp rags isn't such a disparity.

+15 all stats +100hp items in all slots gets pretty nutso

[Quil]

I was the best ranger on server.

[Gustoo]

I think you probably need to have more details like you killed some dudes

[Ragnaros]

In velious I would say with triple attacks monk are the strongest I would say but skill honestly didn't matter once everyone started getting bows, you would have D list shitters just bow kiting everyone with their primal or ToV bows instead of the traditional melee.
In Kunark I still think the order goes Monk > Rogue > Warrior with rogue being the hardest to play or having the higher skill gap. Monk has the most utility and survivability ( mend, avoidance, regen if iksar) and its pretty easy to land normal rounds, Rogue is good if you are skilled at melee and landing backstabs and you can really set your self apart of the crowd if you master sticking and jousting. I would say warrior is the easiest to play because you can just be a potato and just pop precision and nobody is going to target you.

Colgate hit it on the head when he said that SKs attract idiot players because of Harm Touch but I still think they are a pretty valuable class even in a mass pvp set up because of channeling ( dispel purposes) and being able to secure kills with taps / HT but besides Mirkuls and Beastagor I don't think there was anyone notable playing the class.

I wish more people played paladins but unfortunately the only successful paladin was probably brickhouse, I might try to play one on the next box because I really feel like you can be a pretty big difference maker if you are level headed and have good awareness in group pvp with the ability to pretty much be a cleric and have the ability to consistently interrupt casters, set up rez areas in mass pvp, MA, you could pretty much do a lot of roles as a paladin pretty easy if you aren't so strung up on doing damage.

[White_knight]

Oh yah I forgot about Brickhouse, he was the only notable Paladin for sure.

[Bazia]

paladin suffers from the "it's okay but another rogue would just be better" syndrome

[Gustoo]

When you guys say bows break traditional melee action I'm thinking the velious list would be Warrior Rogue Ranger Monk SK Pally in that order.

Warrior theoryquest because outdoors the bow rules and of the bow classes he has the most durability in tight dungeon spots too.

Rogue because all other reasons and maybe is top 1

Ranger because best now skills but sucky in tight spots indoors because much utility is negated and out dpsd by rogue and can't beat warrior f2f.

If bows are so cheap.

Tell me why my theoryquest is wrong?

I'm making a green melee to pre game for red 2 and it's probably going to be a warrior or an SK

Maybe a shaman instead tho.

Hard not to just be a cleric forever because who knows if I will ever have the time to be more than half ass at any class and at least I've learned some cleric trix.

[Danger]

I'm making a green melee to pre game for red 2.

Literally the only reason I'm playing green.

[Ragnaros]

When you guys say bows break traditional melee action I'm thinking the velious list would be Warrior Rogue Ranger Monk SK Pally in that order.

Warrior theoryquest because outdoors the bow rules and of the bow classes he has the most durability in tight dungeon spots too.

Rogue because all other reasons and maybe is top 1

Ranger because best now skills but sucky in tight spots indoors because much utility is negated and out dpsd by rogue and can't beat warrior f2f.

If bows are so cheap.

Tell me why my theoryquest is wrong?

I'm making a green melee to pre game for red 2 and it's probably going to be a warrior or an SK

Maybe a shaman instead tho.

Hard not to just be a cleric forever because who knows if I will ever have the time to be more than half ass at any class and at least I've learned some cleric trix.

I mean if you are talking about 1v1 sure warrior wins with primal bow kite

[Vexenu]

High-end Velious itemization basically breaks EQ PvP. Melees with maxed out resists and +100 HP in every slot are ridiculously OP vs. similarly geared casters. This is why the ideal classic PvP box would either flat-out stop at Kunark or only implement a "light" version of Velious: have your three outdoor zones each with a dungeon IC (ToFS), EW (CC), GD (Velks) then Thurgadin and Kael (minus AoW/Statue). So no high-end Velious raid gear. Velk, Dain, Tormax and Vindi would be the big targets and melees would be geared out in mostly Thurg armor. So you add in a lot of new content but remove most of the ridiculous mudflation that occurs with ToV-tier gear. PvP remains more balanced and fun, and Kunark and Classic raid targets still remain highly relevant.

[Gustoo]

I like that, seems pro.

My dream would be Vanilla with backfilled content that keeps bronze armor relevant.

[coolget]

paladins are strong because they get 6 instant cast complete heals, can bash, and have DA in velious

no one ever wants to target them, so they're basically a more flexible cleric

if holyforge works in pvp, they can actually do scary damage, but i never saw anyone try to use it

[coolget]

When you guys say bows break traditional melee action I'm thinking the velious list would be Warrior Rogue Ranger Monk SK Pally in that order.

Warrior theoryquest because outdoors the bow rules and of the bow classes he has the most durability in tight dungeon spots too.

Rogue because all other reasons and maybe is top 1

Ranger because best now skills but sucky in tight spots indoors because much utility is negated and out dpsd by rogue and can't beat warrior f2f.

If bows are so cheap.

Tell me why my theoryquest is wrong?

I'm making a green melee to pre game for red 2 and it's probably going to be a warrior or an SK

Maybe a shaman instead tho.

Hard not to just be a cleric forever because who knows if I will ever have the time to be more than half ass at any class and at least I've learned some cleric trix.

theoryquest is dumb because it's subjective

what's your goal? to be able to kill people in the middle of iceclad and the argument is that a warrior does this best with a bow solo? play a bard, then

almost no one ever plays a melee this way, because you're just a sitting duck when a bard or a caster group enters one of these zones

i think pvp in dungeons and raid zones is a more compelling factor to judge melee strength, and the only classes that can even attempt to hang in those zones are monks, SKs, necros, and rogues, of which monk is easily the best due to shorter cooldown feign death, instant cast feign death, defensive disciplines like stonestance and voiddance, sneak(what really sets them apart from an SK in these situations) and the ability to actually survive rounds from mobs in zones like temple of veeshan

[coolget]

paladin suffers from the "it's okay but another rogue would just be better" syndrome

in PvE yeah, but a single, good paladin who prepares is insanely valuable in any group/mass pvp situation

[Bazia]

in PvE yeah, but a single, good paladin who prepares is insanely valuable in any group/mass pvp situation

out of respect for your skill ill assume youre right but me personally kunark+ id rather have a rogue

shits just not balanced

[coolget]

paladin has a realistic chance of stopping the snowball effect by preventing several of the first few kills of a fight

no other class can really do that except for bard with group DA, but paladin doesn't have to be in the group

[Nirgon]

out of respect for your skill ill assume youre right but me personally kunark+ id rather have a rogue

shits just not balanced

Should be binds in Freeport now ya slacker.

Seriously tho, Odus is a brutal start for an opening weekend. Iksar is mild by comparison.

[Bazia]

paladin has a realistic chance of stopping the snowball effect by preventing several of the first few kills of a fight

no other class can really do that except for bard with group DA, but paladin doesn't have to be in the group

no one played it like that, i get it though if a guy used his soulfire intelligently

just rarely happens unfortunately

[Danger]

if holyforge works in pvp, they can actually do scary damage, but i never saw anyone try to use it

does it tho?

[kotton05]

In mass pvp the paladin is bouncing from caster to caster interrupting while listening to who is being focused ready to LoH or use a soulfire. I never saw anyone do this minus strut. Most are selfish and use their clicks of soulfire or loh on themselves

[Gustoo]

In mass pvp the paladin is bouncing from caster to caster interrupting while listening to who is being focused ready to LoH or use a soulfire. I never saw anyone do this minus strut. Most are selfish and use their clicks of soulfire or loh on themselves

Thats what I thought would be correct manly paladin strategy. Its more like a battle cleric less like a wannabe warrior.

[coolget]

i would say a more defensive playstyle is better than focusing on offense and disruption

you always want to be close to your squishy or likely-to-be-focused teammates while assisting enemy damage dealers and suspected main assists

most of your time is probably best spent queuing up heals on those players' targets or dumping golem wands onto your main assist's target

paladins will probably have to spend more time farming consumables like those and soulfires than most other classes, but they are rewarded greatly by being undesirable targets in pvp

[White_knight]

holyforge barely worked in PvE, could eun the full duration and get 1 proc if lucky.

Is definitely broken on these servers.

[Gnec]

i play on peq with intensity and a 2.0 a pal can slash for 55k : )

[Jeni]

Holyforge if you attack constantly for the 5 minutes straight gave me like 2-4 crits never saw a crippling blow vs undead despite testing on the beta and in KC. I want to say I landed a single Crit bash? that I can remember in PvP. Also the Magic immune disc basically didn’t work at all in PvP.

[Danger]

at least there 3 year old bug forum posts about this still

[Trainhop]

if we get enough troll/ogre sks all with weighted axes we can do anything, and sweep through any zone.

[Darthmuhh]

m

[Danger]

if we get enough troll/ogre sks all with weighted axes we can do anything, and sweep through any zone.

https://i.imgur.com/lXycpeg.png

[HappyTr33z]

Played Paladin here from Classic > Velious as my first toon and main. Had a real tough time getting kills, but I would win the majority of my fights, just had no way to prevent someone from making it to the ZL unless they had zero MR. Red99 was my first time ever playing EQ(except the old tutorial back when I was like 5 yrs old because my brother didnt trust me to not fuck with his characters :P ) so I didnt come into it with previous knowledge of the game/ EQ PvP.

It was definitely rough at times, but I have never had more fun on any other game. I ended my Red99 career with a Rocksmasher and a Great Spear of Dawn. Having a nice weapon made all the difference in the world.

Overall I'd say Pallies are the weakest of the melees in terms of their ability to actually kill someone, Rogues and SKs seem to fare alot better. But Pallies can definitely survive almost anything, once you have enough resists and clicky items/consumables.


As hard as it was, I wanna do it again. WIPE IT CLEAN!

[Trainhop]

This is just a reminder that your A Weighted Companion Axe can in fact, not speak.